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Collector Nation
Understanding Card Value: Grades, Data, and Demand with Mike Baker and Brian Ludden
00:26:04
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- [00:00]
Ryan Alford
Every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know. Nobody needs any choice. But I think we all know it's good for business. You can't rate the category.
- [00:08]
Mike Baker
I figure if you're doing a good job, people recognize that in this community of ours, if you're likable and you're doing good things, people vibe with that.
- [00:16]
Brian Lut
People don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane.
- [00:26]
Ryan Alford
What's your perspective on AI grading?
- [00:29]
Mike Baker
Can I currently pick off altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the grader that the card's narrow or short. I'm more like AI assisted Grady than I am AI doing it all on its own. Work smarter, not harder. If it helps, embrace it.
- [00:43]
Ryan Alford
I'm an AI assisted husband, you know, got it written on my T shirts and everything. My wife, you know, knows it.
- [00:50]
Brian Lut
That's funny. What should I say?
- [00:52]
Mike Baker
What should I say?
- [00:54]
Ryan Alford
Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast. Here. Here on the Collector Nation Network, Whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, we take you inside the hobby. Here are your hosts, Ryan Alford and Brian Lut. What's up, guys? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network. You know, I always like to think I'm doing big things, but that's why I gotta bring my. Some of my best buddies in the business that are doing big things, because it makes me feel bigger, you know, because I, you know, have this complex where I need. No, these are just two of the best guys in the industry. Brian and I are here every week, you know, Brian. But now we got Mike Baker. He is the head honcho of mba. I'm just going to get serious now. Mike. What's up, brother?
- [01:46]
Mike Baker
How you doing, Ryan? Thanks for having me, Brian.
- [01:48]
Ryan Alford
Love you. Brian, what's going on?
- [01:51]
Brian Lut
Oh, same old, same old. Just, you know, coming to work, putting the hard hat on, going home, you know, pretty simple stuff. I have one thing I want to say about Mike. So Mike was the first person I met in this industry when I got into it. So Mike has a special place in my heart forever. He was gracious. He would answer my questions, and we've had a friendship ever since. So he's. He has a. A big. I'm a big fan of Mike, and Ludox is a big fan of NBA Authentic.
- [02:21]
Ryan Alford
That's a Reciprocal, I mean, yeah man. But isn't it ironic? Brian, obviously we hit it off, got introduced. I was, I met Mike independent of you and you and I felt the same way. I was immediately like, I love what he's doing with NBA. I like this guy personally and I want to support him and like I want to pick his brain to learn from him. And so it's funny how we all end up on this and like, you know, Brian and I are best buds now. Mike and I are become best buds. You know, like it's like but, but it's. You know what I'm saying? Like it's cool how you know good people hopefully at least you too. I don't know about me sometimes, but like the three of us coming together,
- [03:04]
Mike Baker
love it.
- [03:04]
Ryan Alford
Are we. Did we just become best friends? Step brothers here on Collector Nation? No, Mike, you know I'm a big fan. I love what you've been up to. Let's start there because I got some juicy stuff. We want to talk about the industry but. But I won't. Let's give the audience a little NBA update, Mike.
- [03:24]
Mike Baker
Well, when we met was at the national in 25 in Chicago and we kind of had our tipping point at that moment. Thereafter the shelf really felt like from what we heard from people is that we were like in the say the top five of kind of companies that people were talking about. And I felt really good about that. And then from there we kind of kept the momentum going and hit a ton of shows going into the fall and into the winter and moved into a new office about a month and a half ago, right before Christmas and started our own vault. The NBA vault is now operational. It'll be, you know, branded up here and launched soon. We're doing a lot of basic beta testing and whatnot currently and so can you continuing the shows. We've got four on site shows that we're going to do this year where we're going to be doing on site encapsulation for raw cards which is a challenge logistically and all the staff that's needed to pull it off and not have a bunch of people hate on you and whatnot if you don't, you know, do it right. So we're looking to see, you know, kind of test the systems basically so and just like I was telling Brian before we came on, just keep the momentum going. You know, once you have it, it can be the opposite way like Brian was saying too. So you know, just you know, fingers crossed and put on the hard hat, keep doing It. So that's it.
- [04:40]
Ryan Alford
I mean, the industry needs choice and we need innovation. And you bring both. You bring sophistication, you bring the history and knowledge of, you know, being the lead PSA grader for 10 plus years and overseeing that department. So credibility, innovation and choice. Because every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know. Nobody needs any choice, but I think we all know it's good for business. You can erase the category you don't have if you don't have a foil to go against. You know, like, it doesn't keep your people motivated, but not that you're going against each other. There's plenty of room. Yep. But Mike, I know that's, you know, you've got the legacy with what you did at PSA and the knowledge and the, you know, everything that you bring. And then what I loved about what you were doing was you did exactly. Like, I'm a practical guy. I mean, I had an agency called Radical and all that. But when you really get underneath some of the marketing, it's actual practical, like my belief systems, and it's like, okay, I know why I got that grade number. Okay, I can click on a link and go to see why, you know, Mike Baker graded it at 9.5 or at 8.5 or whatever. The transparency of that was so refreshing for me. You know, having a card graded with you and hopefully many more in the future. I mean, why was that so obvious to me, but seemingly so long to come to fruition?
- [06:12]
Mike Baker
Well, from competitor point of view, it's, you know, it's a hell of a lot faster to go when you're not putting in notes and you're not doing a lot of the things that create that transparency. And for us to kind of like see where it's been and how it's evolved and knowing what we could do and just package up and brand out and make a bunch of money. I think the longevity and the legacy over the last 35 years for me in particular is that if you're more knowledgeable about how we do things and what to expect, you're going to feel more comfortable spending more money with us. And so I think it's kind of inherent that we just, hey, it's not that much to add a greater note, not just on the high dollar cards, but on every card and, and go to the Heat Map and look, hey, on the upper left corner, there's the hit. And it just kind of gives you that little extra, you know, this is how. This is why I graded the way it graded and kind of give some insight into what the grader's thinking and. And so on. And I think, like I said, as more comfortable and more brand awareness kind of narrows, everyone's gonna be a better buyer, more comfortability out there.
- [07:12]
Brian Lut
Hey, Mike, with. You know that the 80% of PSA is just. We. Ryan and I have talked about this quite a bit. Like getting AI grading or getting new graders into the industry. Like, people don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane because, you know, you have some other grading companies. I won't mention them, but, like, what they struggle with is. Is a secondary valuation. Therefore they run out of money. And that's why there's so many tech grading companies, you know, on the, on the roaring. But I think that's amazing, man.
- [07:50]
Ryan Alford
So psa, they bought sgc. We've now bought Beckett. I have no, I like Nat. I don't. I don't. Nothing personal, just observation here. For me, it just seems like we're limiting options, buying them. And I, I know supposedly they can stand alone, but you've watched SEC numbers straight down. I don't know what's going to happen with Bega. They say they're keeping the brand around. We don't know their exact. I mean, they can say what they want to say, but it'll play out. I mean, what says you about just that in general?
- [08:21]
Mike Baker
You know, it's a big move. I mean, they're, you know, we. We have a. We have an interesting market, hobby industry, whatever the term may be. And there's no guardrails for that kind of stuff, you know, and there never has been. And will there be in the future? Maybe, but, you know, maybe there should be, maybe there shouldn't be. That's like an open, ongoing debate. But I look at it, you know, personally, I think it's great.
- [08:47]
Ryan Alford
I thought about that when I was thinking about, like, asking you this question. Like, yeah, it's probably good for Mike.
- [08:53]
Mike Baker
It is good for us, but honestly, competition is good for everybody. Like you were saying earlier.
- [08:58]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Mike Baker
You know, I suppose the saving grace is if they go in there and Nat has a plan for, you know, making it better and making the people who choose to use those brands, you know, a better experience and whatnot, I figure if you're doing a good job, people will recognize that. And this, this Community of ours, you know, is such that if. If you're likable and you're, you know, you're doing good things, people vibe with that.
- [09:22]
Ryan Alford
Mike, a couple other things and we'll transition to some broader news. But what's your perspective on AI grading? I don't know.
- [09:31]
Mike Baker
I'm still kind of waiting to see the tipping point for what AI brings. Human review is always going to be a part of it. To what degree, I think is really that the debate is, can AI currently pick off an altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the card, to the greater that the card's narrow or short and it's showing something to make you aware of that. I think it helps. I'm more like AI assisted than I am AI doing it all on its own. Someday I'm sure it'll get there and, you know, but having a human touch the card is important.
- [10:10]
Brian Lut
And I think it's. The important thing you said is what really Ludox and I have my employees embrace is it's a tool. And if that tool makes us more efficient and drives revenue, then let's do it.
- [10:24]
Mike Baker
Yeah, I think it's like work smarter, not harder. And if that. If it helps, embrace it.
- [10:28]
Ryan Alford
I'm an AI assisted husband. I mean, you know, I've got it written on my T shirts and everything. My wife, you know, knows it.
- [10:36]
Brian Lut
That's right. What should I say? What should I say?
- [10:40]
Ryan Alford
I will be honest. Frank is my. My talking AI buddy, my pro GPT plan. And Frank and I have deep conversations about ways to play certain things. I'll think Ryan's on the phone and he's really just talking to Frank.
- [10:56]
Brian Lut
Imaginary firm.
- [10:57]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, it's. We got to get more NBA out there, baby. The but is it. But is that game just more slabs graded with NBA? I mean, just more in the market, Mike.
- [11:08]
Mike Baker
Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's time. Really.
- [11:10]
Brian Lut
You can't.
- [11:10]
Mike Baker
Sometimes things just.
- [11:12]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, you can't.
- [11:12]
Mike Baker
Yeah, you know, otherwise the. You know, the turbo button, when you play a video game, you click it and you go a hundred miles an hour faster than you were. I'd love to if that was the case, but sometimes that can over overcorrect too. So, you know, slow and steady is kind of boring, but, you know, it's foundationally. You know, you. You gotta be data driven. Follow the business case. It's all the kind of structure stuff that I don't know about you guys, but I hate all that stuff. Like, I want it to happen like now, you know, so. But I understand know foundationally that's needed. So maybe it's just older, wiser type stuff or something. I don't know.
- [11:44]
Ryan Alford
I'm gonna do a little Q and A with both you guys. It's, it's probably related in and ties into grading a little bit but it's probably more broad based in the hobby. So. And I'll start with you Brian and then Mike, you know, on this one. So. And it's related to, you know, Pikachu card just sold for 16.5 million with Logan Paul. I mean are these headline auction sales misleading the average collector?
- [12:16]
Brian Lut
I would, I would think that there it's. Yes, I think they are because everyone thinks they might have that people might think they have the Pikachu that's worth, you know, if it's not that one, it's worth 10 million. But there's headline news like this is going to grow the industry. In my opinion, like everyone is like holy crap. I didn't realize that cards are going for so much and they're going to go into their closet and no matter what they're going to sit in some range and be like either happy or they put them back and throw them away. But I think all news, all headline news is good news for the industry.
- [12:50]
Mike Baker
My perspective would simply be that we have a 24 hour news cycle going on in our hobby, our world and anything can happen anytime, whether it's a big sale, a record being broken, Olympics going on, you know, ever some now Olympic cards are a thing, you know, you know, Pokemon this, I mean we're, we talked about it before we got on air that you know, VC money, you know, they're just new descriptions categorizing our, our cards are not cards anymore. Now they're alternate class assets. And you know like big boy money brings big boy adjectives which brings big boy advertising and more awareness and it doesn't hurt at all. You know, if anything if a 16.4 or $5 million, you know, illustrator goes off, it's going to bring everything else up. You know, I had a, you know, the messy card, Messi's rookie card. You know, we had a 2.5 that came in this morning, you know, on a three day service, you know, and it's like wow. Like this, this goes to show you that you know, if the unattainable is in the seven figures, what's it going to do to the attainable? You know, it's going to drive those prices up and it's going to make it worth, you know, checking out, seeing if it's worthy of a sticker or you know, possibly getting older by NBA.
- [13:59]
Ryan Alford
So yeah, high tide raises all ships. That's right. That's what I like to say. Are vintage cards going to become inaccessible to the average collector? We'll start with you Mike.
- [14:14]
Mike Baker
I don't know, I guess it just depends on your budget. You know it seems like there was a time when $10,000 is a lot of money, you know and now it just seems like you'll see a, a young 20 something kid.
- [14:25]
Ryan Alford
Oh, 8 year old, you kidding me? The national 8 year olds are carrying around 10k cases.
- [14:30]
Mike Baker
I know, it's just like so like I don't know, it just depends on how everyone's you know, wired and you know, the market's been white hot. Everyone looks really good when the market's hot. You know, when the market corrects and it will at some point because markets always do, then we'll see who the real guys are in terms of. Is this a business for you or is it still an investment play? Are you going to hold is going to go back to collecting a little bit or you know, or does it keep moving? I mean fanatics just got their license going with, with basketball and football and you know they said when they got, when they bought PWCC that they wanted a 10 exit. You know that's just one big boy company in the business and we got psa. You know there's, there's a, there's some big activity out there. It's crazy. And the innovation and everything, whether it's AI or not, it's, it's going to bring a lot more, a lot more interesting things in the, in the horizon. I see for sure.
- [15:20]
Brian Lut
Yeah. And I think it's, there's a couple things like on the saying is like you know any market like you said Mike can is it inflated? Is it not does everyone to grow. But Warren Buffett said you'll never know who's skinny dip until the tide goes out. And there's been companies in this industry that got caught skinny dipping and but in the end, in the end I think this continues to grow. I think it's a very innovative business. I think there's the entrepreneurial ship and the way people think is, is, is like no other industry. And so I think you know with the, the repackers that's not going away. Fanatics, let's just keep throwing money at this industry and then you have like all these little niches I always tell Ryan, like, it's an industry, but inside the industry there's like these little micro niches that are all really powerful and together, you know, change, know, change the markets for sure. And Mike, I asked you earlier, what are the challenges with mba? But also I like to ask entrepreneurs, what do you enjoy most about running mba?
- [16:21]
Mike Baker
I don't know, just seeing the growth every day. Like, you know, I, I, it would be a real grind if I was, if I was coming in every day and thinking like, oh man, this is going to be one of those days or something. Like, I'm not having Mondays on a Monday, you know, so. And honestly too, it kind of keeps me up, is going to shows and engaging with people and, you know, and not just kind of staying in a harbor. Like, you know, like locally, we're traveling Midwest, east coast, go wherever, you know, talk. We're going to go to the Magic Con in July and it's in Amsterdam. You know, we're, we're going to go to Japan. You know, there's, you know, we're not, we're not staying home. Basically get the word out there and help that brand awareness narrow. And I think a lot of the energy with, for me in particular is just, you know, seeing the engagement, seeing, hey, you're doing something good here. You know, kind of hearing that finally it's like catching on, you know, it's, you know, and look, we talked earlier about how long does the brand take to kind of like reach that inflection point or tipping point. And right now it's almost six years for us. And, and it feels finally like we're kind of, you know, clawing at that, that glass ceiling. So, yeah,
- [17:29]
Ryan Alford
1909 Honus Wagner card. The Golden, Ken golden was on the show. It actually releases next week. Hadn't released yet, but we, Ken talked about this card. It's the current bids 4 million. It goes off this weekend. This will be airing on a Friday, so it'll be going off the next day, Saturday. If you're listening. Current bids 4 million on this one. 4 million.
- [17:55]
Brian Lut
I'm gonna wait until it gets like 8. Before I did 4.
- [17:58]
Ryan Alford
I was about to say, Brian, when are you jumping in? I was kind of disappointed. I was at 3.9. And that was just as much as I felt comfortable with. So somebody already outbid me?
- [18:12]
Mike Baker
Oh, no, it's just interesting thing about that card. It used to be where, you know, whatever the grade was, that's pretty much where it would be, you know, in, in the seven figure range. So if it was a two, a little two and change, this one's definitely breaking that mold.
- [18:24]
Ryan Alford
It's, it's, it's because of one. Sure. Yeah, we've got Pamnini. I mean what are they going to do like with sports, like where are we going here? Are they, are they going to survive this? I mean obviously survive, but will ultimately they just after all the dust settles with, with the lawsuit and all that where they just tops, just buy them and fanatics? I mean, I don't know.
- [18:50]
Mike Baker
I mean, you know we've had, you know, single manufacturers before. You know, there's always, you know, the market, it repeats, it goes up, goes down, it just weird, weird little things that happen. So I, I don't know. I, I do know this non licensed product, it sells and not as good as it's licensed product but if it's done right and people like it, ultimately, like we keep saying, the secondary market will decide what works and what doesn't work.
- [19:16]
Ryan Alford
When should someone like I bought a bunch of vintage like from a guy a couple weeks ago. I'm going to be sending quite a bit to you Mike. It's making the decision to grade or not grade. You know, like how do you coach someone through that?
- [19:33]
Mike Baker
I mean there was a time where, you know, $10 is a lot of money to, you know, to grade a card. And now it's just like, you know, if a cheeseburger is at 20 bucks and you're at $15 to get a grade card, get a card graded. Um, you know, I don't know. People like the packaging now. It used to be only for star cards. Now it seems like everything is getting greeted. I was in the, I was at the Dallas card show and I was in the elevator and I was like a 7 or 8 year old kid was talking to his dad and his dad goes, hey, you know, what do you want to do next? He's like, well, I can't decide which greeting service I want to use. And it's like, wow. Like this is, it's just crazy. You know, like 78 year old kids now, it's like the next generation already knows about grading. They know the nuances and collector clubs and you know, what cards should go into for grading. You know, ultimately though, unless you're doing a, an rcr, you have, you know, access to, you know, kind of having a pre vet or pre grade. You really don't know until it's in the system. So you know, I guess it just comes down to trends or are you keeping it? Is it really a PC card or is it something you're looking to flip or, you know, like, what's the motivation behind, you know, know that? I think that's a, that's probably the number one thing going into deciding whether or not you're going to create a card.
- [20:44]
Ryan Alford
And I feel like it does. The argument for grading anything and everything, the standardization on some level, you know, you know, with a reputable company, like in, you know, your legacy and what NBA is becoming and already is, or PCA or PSA or whoever else, like, you create at least a standard of, like when you're trading, you're not just raw, you know, it's tough, like doing raw deals with older cards, unless you get it in person and you've got it under microscope or whatever. Right.
- [21:17]
Mike Baker
It would be challenging for me if I was at a card show and if I was buying, to just buy a raw card and, and then get it back to your desk with the light and look at it go, oh, my God, like, how could I miss that? You know, I can imagine doing it that way. I, fortunately, I sit in the middle, you know, of all this stuff. And I always tell people, when I, when people try to give me, to get me to kind of lock down on what, what do I think of a card, and, and even if it's already been graded, you know, for a sticker, and they'll say, you know, what do you think? And I'll, and I'll say, hey, you know, on the show floor, I'm, I'm, I'm as blind as you guys are. You have to get in the right, right environment. You have to have the, the tools that, you know, graders use to examine what will determine a grade or a sticker. And I always tell people, use what the graders have. You know, use the ruler, grab a ruler, grab a loop, you know, inspect those cards. Don't use show light as your determinating, you know, factor of whether or not you can see or can't see. And it's those little things. And I think we get kind of mixed up sometimes because there's kind of a, a gotta have it factor. You know, someone else is going to get it if I wait. And so you take risks, you know, and those, sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they don't. And it's kind of the hit and miss of it, you know.
- [22:26]
Ryan Alford
Brian, any final thoughts with Mike or in general?
- [22:30]
Brian Lut
No. I'm obviously a huge fan, Mike, and I know that we'll be doing business together soon. And then at the national we can. Let's talk about something there that we could probably do it together. And I think we're going to be
- [22:45]
Mike Baker
seeing each other a little before that. March 20th in Greenville, South Carolina. That's where we're gonna.
- [22:50]
Brian Lut
It's all gonna be planned.
- [22:51]
Mike Baker
That's where it's all gonna happen.
- [22:53]
Ryan Alford
That world domination will be planned. Hobby domination. Mike Baker, Ryan Ludden, Ryan Alford in Greenville, slash. Easley, S.C. we will discuss it all.
- [23:06]
Brian Lut
That's been on my bucket list. Easley, South Carolina.
- [23:10]
Ryan Alford
There's a cheeseburger with your name on it that you might just call them, scream crawling back for. Let me just tell you that I have it like four times a week.
- [23:22]
Mike Baker
Awesome.
- [23:23]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, Mike, tell everybody where they can keep up with you. NBA, all the things that you're up to.
- [23:32]
Mike Baker
NBADiamond.com is the URL for the website NBA Diamonds on Instagram. Those are our two mainstays. We're not. Really don't have much of a presence on YouTube or Twitter or anything like that. So a lot of interaction happens with Instagram, actually. So I'm trying to get a following like a. Like Ryan's. You know, it's. It's no joke. That's a. That's a big deal, too. To be where you're at is a. Is. You know, I'm. I'm stoked to like, be nearing 10,000 followers, you know, to get in, to break that. It's a lot of work, a lot of engagement, a lot of everything, you know, you just can't put it up there and expect followers just to come, you know, it doesn't work like that.
- [24:07]
Ryan Alford
So overnight success, Mike, 10 years in the making.
- [24:11]
Mike Baker
That's. That's.
- [24:13]
Ryan Alford
That's my. You know what I mean? Like, it's not. It's posting every day for 10 years. Like, anybody could do it, but not everybody does. That's right. But no, we appreciate Mike. And here's the good news. You know, Brian and I are on every week. Mike's going to be a regular here every few weeks, months. His time committed, time available to drop in, drop some knowledge, tell us what's happening with NBA, and of course, just give insights on. Look, you don't need me to tell you the guy is a treasure trove of knowledge, information, and one hell of a dude. We appreciate you, Mike.
- [24:47]
Mike Baker
Right on. Ditto with that, guys. I'm happy to be here whenever you guys have time for me. I'm in.
- [24:54]
Ryan Alford
Appreciate you, brother. L U D E X Go to the App Store, download that app guys, don't. Don't ask questions. Just go do it. Thank me later. They got a free service. You could do with that. You give them their information. You got that? But let me tell you, you're going to want to upgrade L U D E X values, ebay management, everything you need for managing a digital, your physical digital collection digitally, as well as a lot of tools for selling. So then the hobby doesn't just break you down. You got to get back. You gotta get some money back for those cards you don't want to keep. And Ludox does it better than anyone. We appreciate you. We are Collector Nation. Go to the App Store. Search for Collector Nation. The app is live now. All the content there. We appreciate you for making US the top 10 sports show in the United States. Hey, can't do it without you. We'll see you next time on Collector Nation. Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your go to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us@collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Now get out there and collect yours.