Lisa (6:01)

Well, we thank you for that because we feel the same way whenever we read posts. And we're like especially get so angry.

Jenna Chabell (6:09)

Because the kids listen to it, right?

Lisa (6:11)

And then they come and ask us about it and we're like, no, that's not really true. I, you know, there's. And so it's nice to have good information where people can read it and be like, yeah, that's true. Like you have to know the source of where we're getting the information from. So.

Jenna Chabell (6:24)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (6:26)

I remember last year I was when I started getting triggered by it because on the day that Northwestern released.

Stephanie (6:36)

There'S a guy who has I don't know how many followers, but probably close to you and a young guy. And he said, here's everything you need to know about Northwestern decisions. And he spewed all of these things that not only no one outside of Northwestern admissions could ever have known, but there's no way they would have known it that quickly. He was talking about there were blah, blah, blah applications for this major. So if you applied for computer science, you were this regionally, it was this many. And it was literally 15 minutes after decisions. I mean he was just sort of making it up and there was so much dialogue and he Was just literally lying and made me so mad because we had kids calling us. You know, is this true? Should I have done that? And I'm like, no, no, no, none of that's true. Literally just spewing nonsense and hoping that, you know, somebody picks it up.

Jenna Chabell (7:27)

I know, I know.

Stephanie (7:28)

Yeah.

Lisa (7:29)

I feel.

Jenna Chabell (7:29)

Yeah.

Stephanie (7:30)

Of accurate information.

Lisa (7:31)

Yes, yes, we are. Because we, we make our. Having our. Our whole life is just being accurate. Like giving the truth to people they can understand.

Jenna Chabell (7:40)

Yeah, no, I get it. I do. I always. My favorite, like my cringe is always the one that's like this essay got me into this school and I'm like.

Jenna Chabell (7:49)

A little bit more about your profile because it was not like the essay to the essay help. I'm sure it did. But like be more truthful with like your whole profile. Like, were you in the top 5%? Did you have like top tier scores? Did you have like all these other meaningful activity? I mean it's a whole holistic process at most of these schools. So it's just like give a little more context.

Lisa (8:10)

Exactly. More context. And, and the flip side of it too, the ness is not going to necessarily keep you out unless it's just so, so terrible. But there's. There's so many things that go the decision and I think that's why we thought it would be good to talk about that. So we have December coming up in a couple weeks. We're going to get. All of the early decisions are going to come out. Some of the early actions are going to come out. So what do you give your like, what is some of the best advice? I remember, like with my own three kids, it was just not to talk about it all the time and not to say, oh, you're definitely going to get in, because that would just make them so stressed out if you know, they, especially girls like, no, don't say that.

Abby (8:49)

How do you know?

Lisa (8:50)

So what would you say is some good advice that you would give sort of during this waiting time and then also just to how to prepare.

Jenna Chabell (8:58)

Right. I mean some of it is of course the cliche things that you say, but I like, I truly stand by it. Like, I really think you will end up where you are meant to be. And I always try to use analogies with my students because I feel like sometimes that works like a little bit better. But I even say like things, you know, think if you're shopping for a homecoming dress, right, and you go look at a rack and you think there's these 10 really great dresses. And then you go into the fitting room. And like all of these that you thought were great, maybe they don't fit you right, or they don't look as good, or maybe there's ones that surprise you and all of a sudden they become your top choices. And so I always think students need to understand the list that they have when they are putting it all together and they're applying is going to look very different from their list that they're actually making decisions from. And there needs to be a point, point during the admission cycle that you really start focusing on the colleges that love you back, the ones that want you and the ones that are accepting you and the ones that are showing you the merit money and applauding you for your efforts and lose that focus of the ones that maybe you didn't get into or if you're deferred and now you've got to wait a little bit longer, you know, start focusing those efforts on the ones that have shown you the love. Because there are so many great schools out there. And so many times I, you know, I hear, but it was my dream. And I'm like, but why was it your dream? Like, let's really like break it down. Because besides maybe things like the great football team or the, you know, the fun Greek life or the location, a lot of times when I ask them to really break down what made it so right from that, they can't always define all of that in terms of, you know, what was it about those academic programs, what, what did your four year trajectory look like and how is it going to set you up for somewhere else? And the other thing I always tell students, just because it's a no doesn't mean it's a not never. Like, not ever. You know, you can always end up somewhere else later. Meaning, like, look at the transfer opportunities, look at what it might mean for grad school. So it's not where you start, it's where you finish. And I think as adults, we know anytime somebody says, where did you go to school? You're saying the last place you went. So I mean, if your heart is completely set on being somewhere, let's figure out then how to get you there. But in the meantime, let's be really excited about all the places and options that you do have.

Lisa (11:08)

Yeah, and I think that's, I mean, we say the same thing to our clients, but I think it's really hard in December because I think what happens in March, then you have all of these options, right? Have all the decisions. But I think it's really hard when someone's, you know, it's their dream school, they've applied early this season. They don't have any other information yet. Like they're only gonna typically get that. They might get into some of the, the early notification schools that might have been perhaps a safety school or if you could even call it that, but they don't really have a lot of information yet. And so when they get that rejection or they get that deferral. Right. That's I think the hardest because all of a sudden a lot of times they'll start to catastrophize. Oh my God, I didn't get in here. I'm never going to get it here. Or if they got deferred from a school that they thought was like a school that they would, you know, like Tulane, that was always a kind of thing. If someone was applying for perhaps an IV and then they got deferred from Tulane, like I didn't get in there. I'm never going to get into any school. And they, you start down that catastrophizing of things. And I think that's another piece of advice. I don't know what you recommend to your families, but I think that's just the hardest thing is because at that point they don't have enough information. In March, yes, that conversation makes a lot of sense. But in December, there's this feeling that that was it. You know, I put everything into it and I, and I didn't, I didn't get it or I got deferred or whatever it is. And that's it. I'm not in any.

Stephanie (12:34)

Am I going to get in anywhere?

Lisa (12:35)

Right. And I think that's really hard thing to just wrap your head around that, yes, you know, you are going to get into other schools and it really hurts.

Jenna Chabell (12:44)

Yeah.

Lisa (12:44)

But don't catastrophize it. I think.

Jenna Chabell (12:47)

Right. And it's, and it's important, I think, to educate them a little bit too on yield protection because I think sometimes students don't understand that aspect of it that colleges, like you said, are there really safeties anymore? Sometimes colleges look at you as an applicant and while, yes, you are great, maybe they don't sense that you're going to commit and enroll or, you know, it's, you're, you're somebody that you're better off deferring because they, in their mind they might think you're applying ed other places and they want to see if you stick around.

Jenna Chabell (13:17)

And you are so.

Lisa (13:19)

And you are. And so that's kind of what it Is. And I think that. And I think that. And it'll be interesting to see, like, Michigan because that was always a school. Michigan was known for doing that. So we're all super curious to see what happens with Michigan.

Abby (13:29)

Oh, yeah.

Lisa (13:30)

Ed. This year, I think that's going to be a huge thing. But to your point. And then I just. And then we'll get off this sort of what to do. But like, one of our. I. We got. I got this note from one of my clients who ended up at a school that wasn't, like, at her tippy top of her list. Right. And she ended up not getting into her. Her. We know. Thought was her dream school is to reach school. An iv. I just got a note from her and she told me, oh, my God, I'm so happy. And she listed all the wonderful things that she was doing and that she was doing research with a professor, the one that she identified in her why this school essay. And that she was in a sorority and she was doing everything possible. She said, I've never been happy in my whole life. And so it's just like that to see, like, she couldn't have necessarily imagined that in December. Right. But now, almost a year later, she's just beyond the moon and she's so happy. So I think that's also.

Jenna Chabell (14:20)

Just keep in mind, I think the parents, too. I always caution parents, like, read the room. Sometimes the kids aren't as upset as you are. So, like, I can tell you how many parents will be like, I'm so mad at this school. Like, I had one mom last year just constantly, like, she was so mad at uva, her daughter didn't get in. And her. I mean, her daughter got into UNC and all these other great schools, ultimately went to UNC and finally messaged me this past September, like, she loves it there. I'm so glad she didn't go to uva. But sometimes it's like, if your kid's not upset, like, even if you are, like, don't show that to them. Like, don't project some of that maybe negativity or make it a bigger deal. Because sometimes, you know, what you had in your head is very different. You know how your kids have moved through the process and what they're thinking. So I always say, like, read the room with your students as the decisions come in. Because if they're not, like, overly upset, like, no need for you to watch a newbie.

Lisa (15:09)

Right?

Stephanie (15:10)

Right.

Lisa (15:10)

Don't, like, don't make them feel bad and undermine their own.

Jenna Chabell (15:12)

Right. Yeah, right.

Abby (15:15)

I think it's so important, something you said about educating our families and our students about yield rate. Because you, Lisa and Abby, they're back. All of your backgrounds, business or. I was a little bit different. I was an English teacher and kind of doing the essay thing, so. But the business world, it's very humble. I mean, all of it's humbling, right? But, like, the yield rate, that. All of that was very new to me and, like, wrapping my head around that, and once I understood that that, like, that light bulb went off when it's like, so much of it's not personal. So I think just like. And yield. We talk about it so much, but I think that's such a good point, like wrapping your head around that. And I feel like sometimes we explain it and it kind of goes over their head. They don't really understand what it means.

Lisa (15:59)

So.

Abby (16:00)

Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that. So maybe this is. To continue on with this conversation, we're treating you like, like a therapist right now. But, like, I feel it might be a nearly impossible task. But how do you recommend for students and parents to block out all of this noise and fodder surrounding the anticipation of decisions, the aftermath, the focus on results? We learned, you know, that Jenna is also in New Jersey. Like. Like Lisa and myself and Abby, too, is in an area where you can't escape that this college talk. So, yeah, what. What's your advice? To. To block out the noise.

Jenna Chabell (16:38)

I know it is crazy. I always tell people, like, just try to go out and have fun and do things to distract you because it is madness. And like, the thing that makes the journey the hardest is when you start comparing yourself to others. And that. I mean, that's an every single aspect. And even this time of year gets very tough. Like, even if you take out the decision part of it, there are, like, a set group of students who very early in the process already know where they're going. Right. They've committed, they've enrolled, they deposited. And so I think for the students, it's so important to remind them that what the normal thing is for this time of the year is, you know, you hear some decisions in, you know, December, and you hear some more decisions in January, and then you get more in March. And it's really in March where you're kind of laying everything out on the table and figuring it out and going back for visits and making a decision by May, like, that is normal. So, yes, there are going to be the students who are excited and wearing the sweatshirts. And already claiming everything, but you're not behind. And I think it's very easy to get caught up in, like, just feeling like everybody else has it figured out. And it's like, from my perspective, I can't tell you how many students maybe change their mind at the last minute or have last minute things come up. And so it's just if you can just really keep the eyes on your own lane and know that this is your journey and the more you focus on it, the happier you're going to be in the end. You're going to make the right decisions. You're not going to be doing things because everybody else is doing them. So I know it is so completely hard, but just go celebrate, have fun. The applications are out. You can only control what you can at this point. And then just like I said, be excited about your senior year. Like, I feel like so many people lose little moments in their senior year because they're so focused on the future and senior years. So fun. Like, you've waited four years to get to it. So if you can just like step back and just kind of like turn it all over and know that it is going to work out and just go have fun. Like I said, easier said than done. But you really got to turn off that chatter and like parents too. Like, you're part of that chatter. Like, did you see so and so, like, stop, like stop and let the students have fun.

Lisa (18:41)

This is true.

Abby (18:42)

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Or we're going to start to use I like your prom dress, homecoming dress analogy.

Abby (18:50)

And loving them back. That's great. Early actions have come out, early decisions. Some have come out, but they're about to really drop in the next few weeks. And so kind of like what we were talking about. Things don't work out. How do you help your students regroup? Is there an action plan? Is there one thing you tell them to do? Does it depend on the student?

Jenna Chabell (19:14)

I think it depends on the student. But I think especially for the students that I've worked with, we try to be very intentional with the list. So hopefully you do have at least some wins. I love rolling schools for students for that reason. So at least you know that, you know I can go somewhere, I know I have somewhere is just a little helpful. But I also think I tell them, like, this is why we apply early, because then we still have the regular decision and we still have early decisions. So if you feel like you're not happy with the way certain things have worked out, you still have Time now to apply to many other schools. So I think it's just restrategizing if necessary or just like I said, shifting our focus and starting to focus on okay, I got these five really great offers. I am happy with those five. So now it's time to switch course and you know, start going to admitted student days and revisiting and joining things on social media so I can meet other students. So I think it's just again, like I said, having that re. Strategizing conversation if, if we need to, but if not, then we just need to start getting excited about, you know, certain options that are out there. But I think it's okay to cry and be upset and do that for one day and whatever you need to do, go eat a tub of ice cream, you know, do something because you're upset. But then the next day we, you know, put our boots back on and we get moving and we figure out like what's going to be next. Because we know life is not linear. Right. It's not, doesn't have to be this straight path. Like I said before, if you really, really want to go somewhere, we can figure out why. But chances are, like I said, it's working out for and you're going to be excited. I can't tell you how many parents have said like certain schools that have just completely surprised them. Like the number of parents that have messaged me this year about Iowa State in general. Just saying like I never expected and we got on the campus and they were just so interested in my student, the follow up like all of this. I think sometimes parents don't realize the difference between schools that can really just take every applicant for granted and the schools that are really going to nurture a relationship with your child all the way from the admissions process throughout the, the four years. So yeah, it's just learning kind of all those options that are out there and like I said, just getting excited about where your choices lie.

Stephanie (21:15)

Yeah, I, I didn't appreciate the early win until I saw it with my own two boys who have now both graduated from college. But back in the day Indiana was rolling.

Lisa (21:26)

Yeah.

Stephanie (21:26)

And they both got into Indiana and I mean I just remember more than even them being accepted to the schools they went to.

Lisa (21:32)

I remember that they opened it up.

Stephanie (21:34)

And both just, just burst into tears. Burst into tears like somebody wants me.

Lisa (21:40)

Exact same reaction.

Stephanie (21:42)

So I try to remember that actually with all even super high, you know, high flying kids to, to apply because I just have one who applied to an Ivy early decision, we'll See how he does. But he just got into his local university and he was all teary eyed, you know, he was like, I'm just so excited, you know, it does. It does feel nice to. To get in. So the next topic is probably my least favorite in the entire process. I have to say. This is the time when I'm stressed. Deferrals, helping the kids navigate what happens if they're deferred from their first choice schools, whether it was an ED or an ea. Yeah. Helping them figure out if they should still. If they should stay hopeful, if they should re. You know, as you were saying, like recalibrate and restrategize and go for an early decision too. Personally, I had had very little success with kids who were deferred and then accepted. But then a couple years ago, it did happen at Duke. So I'm. I'm cautious not to be like, there's no hope, there's no hope.

Jenna Chabell (22:45)

Right.

Stephanie (22:46)

I don't know what. Do you have any advice about how to counsel the kids looking at the rest of the process once they've been deferred?

Jenna Chabell (22:53)

Yeah, I mean, I try as much as I can, especially on my Instagram, to like go crazy sharing stats because I think it's so important for students to understand is this a small deferral pool where they are taking a certain percentage later where there is still hope, or are we talking like Michigan that's just going to defer 53,000? Are we talking like University of Southern California that's basically deferring everyone because they're not denying anybody. Right. So I think it's really important to kind of set the tone for each school. And then I'm always the one that's, I would say, more negative. Like we're just gonna expect that it's not gonna work out, so that if it does, it's just a pleasant surprise. Because I just think, like you said, it's almost like a wait list when it comes to deferrals, that there's not always a rhyme or reason who's getting picked off. Right. They're fulfilling institutional needs and goals at that point. So it may work out for the student and be very favorable. It may not. Again, I think it's very school dependent. Right. I think there are states schools that very intentionally defer a lot of out of state because they have state minimums that they have to meet for their in state kids. Like, I feel like South Carolina is big on that. They defer a lot of out of state kids, but later, many of them get in, whereas other schools just aren't as favorable for students. So I think, I guess going back to answer your question, I try to share as many stats as I can and then I just have historical data so I can go back and look if the school share about how many percent really got pulled off, you know, in the previous years and gotten admitted out of that deferral pool just so students can manage their expectations. But the funny thing that I will say is, at least with my own students this past year, those that were deferred, they lost interest, which was interesting over the course. Like I had a student who applied rea to Notre Dame, was deferred and also deferred at University of Texas in that early January 15, got into Michigan and eventually got into both Notre Dame and Texas. But because they had deferred, she had kind of given up and lost hope and in the meantime spent all her energy getting excited about Michigan that by the time they came around, she was kind of like, whatever. I'm sold on Michigan at this point, like didn't even care. So I do think schools can potentially lose students in the process by deferring. I mean, I know why they do it, but like I said, I think that's why I just focus and channel their energy into getting excited and loving those back. If they work out, awesome. Like that'll be another choice for you, but you may or may not even want it when it comes around.

Stephanie (25:22)

So yeah, I think that's, that's got to be the exact right direction to give in that in that world of uncertainty. Again, we really appreciate all the stats and, and information that you share and deferral stuff is. I don't know that that information seems to be hard to come by. So for kids who are trying to figure out if they should do ed2a, how would you help them sort of navigate through that prioritization in their minds? And then also what data would you direct them towards? What pieces of information from the school would be most important to consider?

Jenna Chabell (26:00)

Yeah. So I think again, I think it depends on the schools that they're looking at. But looking at, you know, what percentage of students, you know, what does the applicant pool look like for Ed2? Because what I always try to tell students is don't forget, a lot of times Ed2 pools are like very successful Ed1 applicants that got denied to say, you know, whatever their Harvard's or Princetons or, you know, those 5% acceptance rate schools. And now they're going into the second round. So Ed2 does not necessarily mean easier by any means. And I also say like, you're giving up. I mean, obviously with Ed1 too, you're giving up your option to really negotiate and lay out all your options on the table. So I only encourage students to do ED2 if that was kind of part of the initial plan. You know what I mean? Like if when we were making your list in the beginning, we went into the process saying, okay, we're going to do Vanderbilt first and if it doesn't work out, we're going to do NYU second. I don't like the like last minute panicky D2s. I just think sometimes you're just panicking too early when you have all these other decisions that are probably going to be coming out later that, you know, are you just freaking out and making a rash decision or was it like I said, I tend to like the ones that were part of the plan. Of course I know we have like your two lanes in Miami's that intentionally defer to try to sway into ED.

Lisa (27:20)

To Chicago and Chicago does the same.

Jenna Chabell (27:23)

Yeah. So I mean, if that's where you know you want to be beyond a doubt, then I would say go for it. But I even think like Miami, I had a student last year who applied Ed got deferred and so she was, you know, I. That's where I want to be. But in the end it resulted in a spring admit. So like, eventually she still got what she wanted and she, you know, she still went for the spring, but just. No, I don't know. I think it's school dependent, but I don't necessarily love Ed either. That's just me.

Stephanie (27:49)

Same.

Jenna Chabell (27:50)

But I just think you have to just be willing to just. That's, you know, you're just 100% sold on it and that's where you want to be and it's got to be worth it. But for me, it should have been a part of the initial plan, not just a knee jerk reaction. Yeah.

Stephanie (28:04)

Yeah.

Lisa (28:05)

And I think it's also like I had a student last year who.

Lisa (28:09)

Actually it was two years ago, so I think she's freshman there. Anyway, she, she applied Ed to Duke and then she got deferred and she was a double legacy and she should have gotten in. Like there was no reason for her not to get in. And then she was really stressed out about it, so she wanted to apply ED2 to a second school. So she applied there, which she again should have gotten into and got deferred and then regular decision and she got into Michigan actually early and UVA early and then regular decision. She got into both of the schools, Duke and the other school. So it was kind of one of those things where it was like the universe really did work out because it was like she should have been in those schools in the get go. But then it gave her time to really make the decision whether or not.

Stephanie (28:51)

She wanted to do it.

Lisa (28:52)

I mean that doesn't always happen, but that was kind of a nice story where that happened. And I think you're right though with like schools like Tulane. I don't know if you saw that article in the New York Times about the. I'm sure everyone's talking about that. The admissions people and people are focusing on how much money they're making. But also just from a business standpoint, you could see, I mean we saw that, you know, we saw it happening in real time how they were using ED and many schools are using it as an enrollment management business strategy. Lock in number of students that they know are going to come. And most of the time they're going many of the time, much of the time they're going to be full pay students. But not always because they often they will meet full need even for decision. But you don't have the opportunity to compare. And then it's like, okay, well you didn't get in to EA, so let's switch you to ED2. And they'll rec, you know, they'll ask the students to do that.

Jenna Chabell (29:43)

Right.

Lisa (29:43)

And so that's always becomes another strategy which is almost if you don't do it, you feel like you're not going to get in that option. So it does become tricky when you're trying to advise students and figure out what the strategy is. So I think it's a really hard thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (30:00)

It would be nicer if it was just one timeline, you know, one time frame. You just put in your applications and everyone waits the same.

Lisa (30:08)

Like right in England.

Stephanie (30:09)

Yeah. Like everywhere else except for here.

Lisa (30:11)

Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie (30:11)

Yeah.

Abby (30:12)

Every other country.

Stephanie (30:14)

Another thing that kind of threw is, is sort of throwing me for a loop is these pre ed ones now.

Jenna Chabell (30:20)

Well, that's really like Chicago.

Lisa (30:24)

Yeah.

Stephanie (30:25)

ED0 or early, you know, rolling ED.

Lisa (30:30)

That's notification.

Stephanie (30:31)

That's just adding another layer of stress I think for the kids.

Jenna Chabell (30:35)

Right? It is. It's great. I feel like every year everything just keeps inching like earlier and earlier and earlier. But then like on the flip, I feel like things are extending later and later.

Lisa (30:44)

Exactly. Just used to be so much more predictable. You, you would, you would know that you Know, most kids would, most of our cousin when we first started, like, I've been doing this for 20 years. I mean, they would, most of them would get an early decision. They would be done. And you'd be like, okay, great. Now it's like, as you said, it's starting earlier, it's ending later, it's extending. So really, you're not done until June. Possibly you could be going at it until June.

Jenna Chabell (31:07)

I mean, look, Duke was pulling kids in August. You know what I mean?

Lisa (31:10)

It's just. Exactly.

Jenna Chabell (31:12)

It's crazy. So.

Lisa (31:14)

And I think it's all, you know, about managing enrollment. And there's just, I think because the world is uncertain so then, and college admissions has become, you know, fodder and it's the microcosm of the world and the uncertainty of the world gets overlaid on the uncertainty of college admissions. And everything political that happens impacts college admissions. Like there's just so many external courses that didn't used to be at play as much, I don't think.

Jenna Chabell (31:38)

Right.

Lisa (31:39)

And I think that makes it really. Since COVID things have been bananas.

Jenna Chabell (31:45)

Yeah. Well, it's funny, I always try to like, make predictions of like, things that are going to happen and whatever, but like, I think this year we'll see. But I feel like it started popping up last year and we may see more of it, especially that we know that there is going to be like this decline in enrollment is more of these guaranteed transfer admits. So I started seeing more and more of those where it's like, oh, you're admitted not for this year, but if you can go somewhere else for a year and get X amount. And it's like we kind of know that already. Like, that's kind of like how the transfer process works anyway. But I think having that like guarantee in front of it is such a great marketing strategy from the college standpoint. Right. That these students know that you have a pathway in if you want it. And I just think, I think we're going to start seeing more of that as these schools, you know, know that there's going to be a drop off and want to secure students without having to spend more enrollment dollars.

Stephanie (32:37)

Right.

Lisa (32:37)

No, that's a, that's actually a really good point. I hadn't thought about that.

Jenna Chabell (32:39)

Yeah.

Lisa (32:40)

But it also kind of follows suit with what's happening even in athletics. Right. Because now nobody's loyal to anyone. You can always switch at any time. And that makes it hard for the school to which someone's leaving to manage their enrollment. So it's all Challenging. And I think that's what a lot of people don't understand is that like at the, you know, the, the top, say 50 schools or the schools that are, have less than a 10% acceptance rates, those schools aren't going to necessarily be impacted as much. But there's so many other schools, which is the majority of colleges that are really trying to get enrollment, keep their number up and they're, they don't know how they're going to do it from year to year.

Jenna Chabell (33:15)

Right.

Lisa (33:16)

And it's hard. I mean I used to, when, before I got into this directly before I worked at Whittier College, I was there, the marketing department. And, and they're, at the time their, their retention rate was like 78 or something like that. And it was a challenge because every year they were trying to scramble to, to refill the class. And so they were doing it through transfers and other means of trying to get students in. But it made it harder to predict and to, especially at the tuition dependent, revenue.

Lisa (33:48)

Dependent universities or colleges, it makes it harder for them to kind of figure that stuff out. Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (33:53)

I think one positive thing about social media and those alternative enrollment options is I think there used to be like a real stigma.

Jenna Chabell (34:01)

Right.

Stephanie (34:01)

You know, parents would, would feel like there was a stigma saying, oh, you know, my, my kid is going to start sophomore year or spring term, spring semester. But now I think the kids are so out and proud with their experiences that it's, it's a big nothing ball. Like I have good friends whose son is very high achieving, family and friends. The, the son's doing community college for a year and then transferring sophomore year. And they are, they're thrilled. Yeah, they're like it's, it's nothing. Yeah, they say, yeah, they're, they're like this is the best, this is best.

Jenna Chabell (34:34)

Of all, all world.

Stephanie (34:35)

But I think a few years ago you would have sort of, you know, at a dinner party been a little bit shy about talking about that. So I think that's a nice thing actually. I think the kids are really owning their paths, different kinds of paths to get to the same place. Sort of what you were alluding to earlier.

Jenna Chabell (34:51)

Yeah. Well, my favorite article right now, favorite is the Rhodes scholar who had a 2.08 in high school. Did you read that? So I mean, to show students that. And I always try to tell them, right. Like I said, it's not a linear path. There are so many different ways to get to where you want to do. Here's the guy that went into the military, who then went to community college, who transferred into Princeton. Yes, you can transfer into Ivy's. Right. Students don't always understand that. And now he's one of 32 selected to be a road, you know, so it's like, see that there's all these different avenues for you. And that's why, like you said, cut out that noise, figure out your path, how you want to get there. I think people are so much more price conscious now that a lot of people are like, totally cool. Like, yes, my kids are going to go to community college and then transfer over and, you know, or go to these other options that are more affordable and go to the more expensive leader. It's good to know that there are all these options and there's not one right way to do it.

Abby (35:45)

Yeah, Jenna, I love that you do that on, on your Instagram, on your stories, like, you were talking about Iowa State, that, you know, you just put so much information out there, but you do highlight so many of these schools that. And like, programs that are like, specialized or acceptance rates that, like, I think you really do make other people realize, like, there are different paths. There's are different, there's different like all. I think you do this too. Like, here are these public universities that have all of these things that everyone wants and like a rah rah school. And you open their eyes to them. Like, you've opened my eyes to some of these schools either. Like to some of these schools that. Oh, you know what, that might be a really good idea. It might be outside of their comfort zone, but let's see what happens when they do some research, right?

Jenna Chabell (36:31)

Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa (36:32)

And you know, with that, you know, there are so many resources on social media and we talked a little bit about that or but just on the Internet and with, you know, ChatGPT and all these other ways that people are now getting information, how do you someone discern what's accurate or not? Because there is so much misinformation and harder, I feel like it's harder to find good information than it is to find misinformation. What do you think?

Jenna Chabell (36:57)

Right. I'm trying to teach people, like, when you look at their profile, like, or go to their profile, should say when you see something, go to their profile, click on their like and like, read their background so you get a little bit more context. So, like, who's putting the information out? I mean, I'm a big proponent of saying, like, check and see if they belong to some sort of professional organization. Right. See if they're you know, ieca, heca, nacac, something, so that, you know that they have some sort of professional standards and ethics, and you know that they're regularly getting trained on what's happening on college campuses, what's going on in the college landscape, and just really doing your research before you take something. I mean, I have so many people that will send me stuff and be like, is this real? And I'm like, stop looking at stuff. Some of this stuff, it's not. If it ends with AI, it's probably, like, outdated or not. Right. Information to begin with. So, I mean, I think it's hard to sometimes discern. But if you can, like, as a parent or student, like, at least go look up the person and see what their kind of credentials are, where they've worked or where the information's coming from, because at least then, you know. You know, is this just. I don't know. There's so many. I just feel like it's such an industry where anybody can do it.

Lisa (38:05)

I mean, sometimes it comes from, you know, groups, Facebook groups on.

Lisa (38:10)

There's a lot of places where it comes from.

Jenna Chabell (38:11)

Yeah, it comes everywhere.

Lisa (38:13)

Yeah, it does. That's good advice.

Stephanie (38:16)

Overwhelming.

Jenna Chabell (38:17)

Yeah. I like to look.

Stephanie (38:19)

I sometimes tell kids if it. Especially early on when it would be difficult to imagine that anyone could have done research. And, like, it doesn't say it in the school's admissions blog.

Jenna Chabell (38:31)

Right.

Stephanie (38:31)

Or the school's website. Take it with a grain of salt. I mean, it might be right, what you're seeing. But verify. Yeah, yeah. I mean, trust, maybe. And verify.

Jenna Chabell (38:42)

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (38:43)

Read and verify.

Stephanie (38:44)

Read and verify.

Lisa (38:44)

We need to come up with a new acronym to come up with that. Right.

Stephanie (38:47)

Something.

Lisa (38:47)

Yeah.

Jenna Chabell (38:48)

And some colleges just do such an amazing job with transparency. Like I always say, shout out to uga. Shout out to uva, Georgia Tech. I mean, there are some schools that really just are just so forthcoming. And I think it just really helps in the end. Like, it has to reduce their phone calls coming in because you're just being very transparent about what's happening, how decisions are made, what they value in an applicant. And so they. I think it just helps all around. And if, like you said, go to those sources, the UVA dean, she does a live every Thursday. Go watch that. Like, that's the source. If you're interested in applying there, that's who you should be listening to, not just some random person that's telling you, you know, why they think they got in. So.

Stephanie (39:26)

Yeah.

Lisa (39:27)

Yeah.

Abby (39:28)

I'm sure you get some very interesting direct messages but that's a. Yeah for another day. So, being a former admissions counselor, what do you think are some important things for students to know about what goes into their decisions from the other side? You mentioned this earlier, that, you know, it is a business and it's them, not you. And what do you wish that students and their families understood?

Jenna Chabell (39:54)

I think first, I mean, definitely understand, like I said, because these are business decisions. These have been set not even by the admissions office, but board of trustees, president, you know, they're meeting long before you're even applying and making decisions on what they need for their class. And so you can only control what you can in the process. And things are going to happen throughout the admission cycle. Right. We've seen how many colleges. Look at Columbia just the other day, we're probably going to increase enrollment by 20%. I mean, if you applied, good for you, right? Like, that was lucky. Or like last year when Yale dropped it in, like, what, January, February, we're going to admit more students. Rice did the same thing. So you only have so much information, and there's so much that you'll never know. So all you can do is really control what you can in the process and then just understand. I mean, every school has their wish list, just like you do in a college, of what they're looking for in students. And so the more that you can understand that so much of the class is going to be shaped. I always, like when I, because I run a navigator network and do, like, group counseling, I bring up this big chart where it's like, okay, if we can meet 100 kids, understand that, you know, maybe 10 of them have to be athletes and 10 of them are maybe legacy students, and maybe 10 meet that low income or, you know, another tenor from rural areas. And so there's all of these things that shape a class. And the more you can understand, understand that you'll realize that your percent chance of getting in if you're not checking some of these boxes is actually much lower. And you'll start seeing that that's why decisions don't always make sense. You know, you'll always see colleges bragging that they have kids from 46 states. Well, if you're the only kid from South Dakota applying to a certain school, you know, your, your likelihood is going to be stronger than the kid that maybe has, you know, from the same high school as, you know, a whole bunch of other kids. So it's just understanding how colleges are shaping a class. And that's why I said, I love just constantly educate parents as much as I can so that the decisions don't feel deflating, that you understand that there's just so much more going into it and there could be some things that really work in your favor that'll be nice surprises and then there'll be other times that you just, it doesn't make sense. You like. I can't tell you how many messages I get where it's like my student had a four point something and this many APs and Johnny down the street.

Stephanie (42:12)

Didn'T, but he got in his.

Jenna Chabell (42:13)

It's so unfair. And I'm like, you know, there's so much more to it that goes into it. And that's why you can't. You know, what works for one school and makes you so perfect for one, makes you completely wrong for another. You're the same applicant, you haven't done anything differently. But you know, it's just goes to show that they're prioritizing something about you here. They're not. You know, I had a student years ago, well, not too many, I would say maybe 20, 19, who was in the top 20%. This is when I worked in a high school. Top 20% of her class, class of the class got into Cornell and we were like, how did she get into Cornell? No, I mean she was a great, she was, she was a good student but like our valedictorian got denied or salutatory, you know and it's, we're just really like completely befuddled at that point. Like what is going on? And like lo and behold we figured out that Cornell has an endowment set aside for families of 9, 11 who children, parents had died. And so she was kind of at that very tail end. She was probably, you know, tiny, tiny baby when her, her dad had passed away. And it made sense then. Like this is, you know, that was her whole in and you know, you can't go around and tell all the other kids in the class, well that's why she got in, you know, but it sense of like that just goes to show colleges have priorities. They sometimes have money set aside for certain groups of students. And so that's why when you say well how did she get in? And I didn't. There's so many variables that just, you don't either know about, don't make sense to you. You'll, like I said, you'll never know. But it works at one school. But that student wouldn't have gotten into say Stanford or wouldn't have gotten into, you know what I mean? But for that school, she had something that checked a box and made her very attractive to that school. So students just have to realize, like I said, there's so much more that goes into these decisions.

Lisa (43:56)

Right. And there's so much. There's so many different types of students in the world that I think is also hard for people to understand. When you're in your little bubble, you just see, like, the little group around you, but there's just so many different experiences that people have, and it does bring different things to the community, you know, based on those.

Jenna Chabell (44:15)

I think the other thing, too, is a lot of people don't understand the whole, like, in context of the high school you go to. And that's the other piece that I'm always trying to say. Like, okay, if. If you go to one school where Maybe a large percent don't go to college, and maybe the average SAT score at that, that school is a 1200 and you have a 1400 and you're top. Like, you're a standout if you're coming from a high school where it's just kind of expected that you get a 1400 and now you're 50% of, you know, your class there. Everything is. It's. You're taking into context. I always tell students, like, pull out your transcript. Pull out your school profile. How do you look in context to your profile? Because that is how colleges are looking at you. They're not looking at you. You know, Freehold High School, down the street, students can take five, six APS a year. I worked at St. John Vianney. Our students could max at three. Like, you're not being looked at in the same capacity. And students need to understand that. I think they start saying, well, I had this many and this many. And it's like, no, no, no, no. How did you look and compared to your high school and what was available to you right now?

Lisa (45:15)

I mean, that's very true. We always start off all of our meetings doing.

Jenna Chabell (45:19)

Yeah.

Lisa (45:21)

And most times, people haven't. Don't know what a school profile is. They've never seen it before.

Jenna Chabell (45:25)

Right.

Lisa (45:25)

And they don't really understand how to interpret it, especially to put themselves within that context. So.

Jenna Chabell (45:30)

Right.

Stephanie (45:31)

We.

Lisa (45:32)

We always put that at all of our first meetings. So we always just like to end or start with some truths and myths. And I think you've covered some of them. What would you say are some truths or myths about college decisions?

Jenna Chabell (45:42)

Well, I think truth in general, and I know this is a college podcast, but I always try to tell students like, you don't have to go to college. Right. And I, and I, and I say that because I think sometimes students feel like they have to or that it's expected. And maybe it is depending, you know, on the family that you're coming from. But I always want students to know that there's lots of ways to be successful in life and that there are so many options out there. And part of your journey in researching, even colleges should just be looking at all of your options that you have, because, like I said, I don't think there's one path. So I always think it's just important for students to understand that. And like I said in the beginning, we're in a very. I mean, the landscape is changing, and I feel like there are students right now that are going to school and there may or may not be jobs available for them, depending on the way AI goes. We're already seeing how computer science students are struggling, whereas, like, engineers are having a field day. Right. In terms of options. So I always say you want to make sure you're. I mean, this is an investment in yourself, you know, I think, you know, of course college is fun and there's a social piece of it, but it's expensive. And so you want to make sure that you're making the right investment in yourself so that you have options later. And I think it's important too, as students are deciding where to go, who is going to help them with their next move, like, what is four years later look like. And so I always tell students too, like, don't discount those kind of small liberal arts colleges that really focus so heavily on kind of preparing for that next step. Right. They don't have maybe grad schools, or if they do, they're very small. So, I mean, their whole reputation relies on getting students kind of to their next path. And so I always tell students, you know, make sure you look into those options as well. And the other thing I say too, is, like, if, you know, you want to work in a certain field, like, check out where you might want to live after too. You know, if you're very invested in, you know, wanting to work in, say, politics, okay, maybe you're applying to Georgetown, but if you don't get in, there's lots of ways you could be in the D.C. area and get those same internships that those Georgetown kids would be getting. And so I think that's always an important piece. I always tell parents, like, look at where the internship opportunities, what employers are working with the campus. Because when I worked in New York City. I mean, yes, I was at Marymount Manhattan, but they were pulling, you know, kids from our school just like they were pulling them from Pace and Fordham and nyu and, you know, our kids would go to internships and they were surrounded by those other students. So if your goal is to be, say, working on Wall street or working in D.C. like I said, set yourself up where you can be successful in those areas.

Lisa (48:15)

Yeah, I think that's such good, such good advice. And I also want to pick up on what you were saying about the liberal arts colleges or just the colleges that really focus on critical think thinking, because I think what I've been reading a lot and I'm sure you guys have as well, just like listening to what employers are saying that they want from students. And I don't know that it's necessarily changed as it's always been the case. But like those critical thinking skills, those are the only things that right now AI can't do that too. Right. And so it's being able to combine those thinking skills with the tools that are out there and that are always changing.

Stephanie (48:50)

Right.

Lisa (48:50)

And so it's that ability to learn, to learn new things, to figure out how you can apply what it is that you need to do by using those tools that constantly evolve. That's what's going to set, hopefully set you apart when you're looking in the job market. Because I know it's tough right now because I've been getting that question this year. Makes sense, like, well, like, okay, so they go to college and then what happens if they can't get a job? And so it's again, uncharted territory that we're all trying to navigate.

Jenna Chabell (49:20)

Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa (49:21)

Thank you for your, thank you for your being the guiding light in this and helping people and families do any last words that you want to share?

Jenna Chabell (49:28)

Don't believe everything you hear on social media. I feel like that's a good one to say. I, I mean, if you're a parent listening, I would say, like, I feel like there's so many right now. I'm constantly seeing, like, if you haven't started in eighth grade, you're never going to a good school. Right. I feel like, like I said, just watch everything you hear. I can't tell you how many people reach out and say, I'm already behind. And it's like, no, you're fine. Let's start with where, let's start with where you are and then we can go from there. So I mean, if you're a parent listening to this try to weed out some of that noise just for yourself as you're going through the process because it is overwhelming, but it does work out the way it's meant to be. And then just enjoy senior year. Like I said, so many students get stripped of that experience because they just focus so much on things that are just out of your control that if they can just really, you know, lean into where they are right now and know that everything's going to come right, those dates and decisions will come and they'll drop and, you know, they'll work out or they won't, but you'll keep moving forward and you'll be successful. So. So, you know, just good luck through the tough time because I know this month is, is can be challenging.

Lisa (50:31)

So wish everybody that, you know, we wish everybody good luck as they start hearing about their decisions. Well, thank you CBMers for tuning in and thank you Jenna for an epic episode. We will definitely have a link to your Instagram and your resources on our line. To catch more episodes of College Bell Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about about the podcast. And if you like what you heard, please rate our podcast to boost our rankings so more people can find out about us. To learn more, visit collegementor.com until next time. You got this.