Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (2:58)

Right, absolutely. And it seems like admissions has changed even more since you wrote that book.

Jeff Salingo (3:03)

Well, and it's one of the reasons why, as you know, the first chapter of Dream School really gives us an update on just how much admissions has changed. You know, I recently saw a counselor show a slide about admissions over the last 100 years. And basically admissions didn't change for 65 of them, 70 of them. Then it kind of changed a little bit, and then it changed a lot. Just in the last five years.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (3:24)

Yeah, absolutely. I found myself highlighting so many passages in your book. In Dream School, you really captured how much college admissions has changed since COVID You know, we do a yearly college admissions trained webinar and we identified a lot of the same issues. So it was so great to see how you encapsulated so many of those issues. Can you just walk us through maybe the top five impacts on college admissions in the last five years?

Jeff Salingo (3:49)

Yeah, so I think one of them was test optional, obviously. So, you know, 100 schools went test optional during the pandemic. Many stayed that way. So what that led to was kind of this application inflation. So that's number two. Right. Application inflation has been around since the common app really grew up in the early 2000s. It just took off post Covid. That really led to a lot of yield protection and yield volatility. Right. When more students, same number of students applying to more colleges, what ends up happening is you really don't know who's interested and who's really going to come. So you saw a lot of schools really try to figure out, well, who's really interested, who's not. So yield volatility was. Was number three. And then number four was, because of that, because of the huge increase in apps, you're not sure who's interested. You saw more schools go early decision or more schools really go early action. So you saw a lot of the new, especially the big publics start early action programs. And then finally this idea of the value of higher ed, we're really starting to see families start to say, is it really worth paying full price at all of these schools? Song Richardson, who's quoted in the book the former president of Colorado College talked about these full pay students as gold. You started to see a fall off of those full pay students last decade, but you really saw a fallout after the pandemic. I think a lot of that was because parents saw their kids at home and saw how they were or weren't learning, and they started to say, is this really what I want to pay for when they go back in person? Because they kind of saw the inside, just like I saw the inside of the admissions office. They started to see the inside of the classroom and started to ask questions about, is it really worth it?

Stephanie (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (5:37)

Yeah. Thank you for that synopsis. And before I ask our next question, I just wanted to let you know, I said to Lisa and Abby before we started, in your introduction, I quoted you to a family this morning. You're like, remember this? This is supposed to be exciting, this process. And I think it's so easy to forget that. And for me to forget that, too, even though I do this because I do find it exciting. And just even to see the parent shift in mindset just by sharing your sentiment with them that this is supposed to be exciting was just like, I don't know. It was really nice. So thank you for that. I'll stop fangirling. I could do that for a bit more. On page 42, you write that at Duke, fewer than half the applications go through the full evaluation process. I want to make sure I'm not butchering the name, but. Guten Tag.

Jeff Salingo (6:27)

Yep. Guten Tag, he's the. He's now no longer the dean of admissions there. He's. He's since retired, but yes.

Stephanie (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (6:33)

Okay, so thanks. So Guten Tag says that in the early past, he. He had to say no to 2/3 to 75% of the applications after 15 minutes. So students have had to go beyond their high school's academic offerings now to stand out, which is something that we see all the time. So how pervasive is this early cut at other highly select schools?

Jeff Salingo (6:56)

So I think it's becoming increasingly common, mainly because of the volume of applications and the inability to really add any more days to the reading season. Right. There's only so many days that you get in a reading season. And so increasingly, they're trying to figure out how to make these earlier cuts. And what I think is more harsh in some ways is that the later cuts just require so much more to get over that line than they did even five years ago. And that was probably the biggest takeaway from chapter one. Mia's mother, who I profile in chapter one has multiple kids who have gone through the process, you know, before the pandemic, post pandemic. And the things she can't quite get over, can't quite address, is this fact of how different it was for these three kids in her family.

Abby or Lisa (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (7:47)

One of the overarching messages in the book is that since the super highly selective elite. That's air quotes there. Schools have gotten near impossible to get into that. Rather than focusing on those schools, we need to widen our search to find schools that will engage the students, transform them, be a good value for the families. I think what you're trying to get across is that it's more about what you do at school than where you go. And I guess I'd say that's not a new message. There's been other books like Colleges that change lives, that have said that. But I mean, from our personal experience.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (8:28)

I think I could talk to.

Abby or Lisa (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (8:30)

That's a hard message for families to hear, process accept. So do you find that now in the current environment, it's a more easily digested message?

Jeff Salingo (8:42)

Unfortunately, no. Right. And it's why you asked about how well the last book did. It's a concern I have about this book, and that is it's a message that many parents and families don't want to hear. And it's a message that I'm not encouraging or discouraging, I should say, students from applying to these highly selective schools. That's not the message of this book. This message is not discouraging them, but it is encouraging them. That at the same time that they apply to those highly selective schools, that they widen their lens on these other schools. And why is that? Because the outcomes. Because I really kind of attack the myths about a lot of these schools that are deeper in the rankings, that they will find their sense of belonging and purpose, that they will find mentors, that the outcomes, by the way, are not as different as they think they are between the highly selective and the less selective institutions. And so it's really about widening that lens on these broader set of schools, largely because, as I address in the first chapter, it's becoming almost impossible to get into those highly selective schools. But second, that you might find something that is kind of surprising at these other schools that are deeper in the rankings. And I think the reason why parents shut that conversation down is one is they do believe in these myths that these highly selective colleges are like a key to future successes and that they'll never have those future successes if they don't go there. But another reason why they shut this conversation down and why I think this book will be hopefully useful to them is that they don't really know how to make sense of the vast world of higher ed. It's easy to know what the top 25 or top 50 colleges or universities are, but once you start to say, well, look deeper in the rankings, they'll say, well, what am I looking for? And my God, there are hundreds and hundreds of institutions deeper in the rankings. So where do I start? What do I look for? What am I? What, you know, what is. What does it really mean to have a hidden gem? And that's what I hope to do in the second half of this book, is to give them some clues, some guide rails, some points of reference to find those places.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (10:59)

Yeah, And I think that's such great advice because we've seen it play out where students who didn't get into what they wanted as their dream school right in the beginning, and then. Or they got deferred from it, and then they have all these other options, and then once they start to dig in and see all of the other options available to them, oftentimes they don't. And if they got into the school that they originally applied to, like after they were deferred, they oftentimes choose another school because they have more opportunity to really dig deeper into what's available to them, and they're surprised that they hadn't even considered that school as a possibility until they didn't have the other one as an option. So I think that's really amazing advice that we all try to share and we hope that parents and families will listen to it.

Abby or Lisa (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (11:46)

Yeah, personally for me, I just had two sons recently out of school, and I just can't agree more with. It's not where you go, it's what you do with it. You know, the mentors you make, the connections you make, the opportunities you take. And one thing that I like to tell our clients is if you want to go to a good fit academic, a school that's a good fit academically so you can take advantage of all of the other resources and things around you, you know, you don't want to struggle in school, you want to set yourself up for success. I totally. I just agree with that completely as a parent. Also, do you have any tips for helping us to convince our families that they should dig deeper into the universe of colleges?

Jeff Salingo (12:33)

Well, I think first of all is having an honest conversation that it's very difficult to get these highly selected places right. And so everybody I know thinks they're going to be different and that they're going to get over that, over that hurdle, but they're not for the most part. And I think having a serious, honest conversation about that, I know that only goes so far. In fact, it doesn't go very far at all because everybody thinks that their kid is different. I think then we start with the outcomes, because most parents are most interested in the outcomes right now. And so in chapter two, I talk a lot about how for the vast majority of students, we tend to really look at the outliers rather than the averages for most students. And most, and for the averages for most students are going to be very closely connected, whether they're at Harvard or UCLA or Penn State or Ohio State or Clemson or Furman or Denison. Right. It's not as vast of a difference between the outcomes in those places. And so I think that helps a little bit. Right. Then I really want to focus then on the experience that they're going to have as an undergraduate. You know, there's William, who's the student I interview in the introduction, who got into Columbia, ends up transferring because his experience wasn't what he expected. He couldn't get into the classes he wanted to. There was competition to get into clubs. The professor didn't want to do undergraduate research with him because he was an undergraduate and not a graduate student. And I think again, in our focus on selectivity and on brand and on rankings, we don't really look under the hood enough into what the actual undergraduate experience is going to be. And as you saw through other people in the book who end up going to a less selective undergraduate college, but by the way, then cash in that chip on many levels, including the money that they save, and go to a more selective graduate campus where, by the way, they can take advantage of. Of different resources that are available to them that wouldn't be available to them at undergrads. And I think with the exception of the highly selective liberal arts colleges, most highly selective universities are there for one reason, and that's for graduate students, not for undergrads. I don't think the undergraduate. And we tend to think, oh, well, these graduate students and these professors are just so great and they're going to be around all these undergraduates. And at the end of the day, they don't care as much about the undergrads. And they may say they do, but they don't. And I think we tend to forget that. And so we think, well, we're in the same sea, right? We're swimming along the same stream with them, and we're suddenly going to get impacted by that. I actually think the impact is going to be greater at these places that actually focus on teaching, focus on mentorship, focus on finding your place as an undergraduate.

Stephanie (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (15:30)

Yes, that's such great advice. And even, you know, I think experience, everything is grounded in that word. So, yeah, I love that. So you touched on this a little bit earlier, talking about trends and value. If you could expand upon value and what that means in today's world when applying to colleges. And how much do you think value will continue to drive college decisions?

Jeff Salingo (15:57)

I think the quiet luxury movement has entered higher ed and the quiet luxury movement in fashion and other things is that we don't, we kind of have good clothing, but we don't advertise kind of the brand name the way we used to. That's, you know, this idea that there is good quality found with the lesser brand names, for example, in a lot of industries. And I think the same now is true in higher ed, where with the exception of very few brands, and I think that number is getting smaller every year, where you may only be focused on maybe the IVs, maybe the Ivy pluses and things like that, maybe a couple of the top liberal arts colleges. What I saw in my research is that particularly this generation of parents, meaning Gen X parents like me, unlike their parents, the baby boomers who are willing to kind of pay almost anything for college because to them it was, it was worth it. You're now starting to see among Gen X parents, and we see this in a number of surveys that I cite in the book, that they want to do other things with their money. So it's not that they, you know, there's a whole bunch of people who can't afford to pay full price, but there are people who can. And increasingly they're saying, I don't want to pay full price, even if I can for an undergraduate experience, when I know my kids probably are going to go to graduate school, probably are going to need help during their twenties. I might as well save that money now. I might as well go chase merit because at most of these schools, the product that I'm paying full price for is just not that much different. It's not really worth that much more than half price off of something that is maybe a little bit lower in the rankings. And so that's the big change between the baby boomers parents and how they approached college for their kids and Gen X parents and how they're approaching college for their kids is that they're willing to kind of skip over, as I say in the book, these brands that 10, 15 years ago parents would have gladly paid full price for.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (17:58)

Yeah, and it's interesting that when you talked about the skip over schools, there was a really interesting chart that you had on page 65 where you showed that in those skip over schools that was actually the number of schools that had the least success getting employed at Fortune 500 companies. And so was that surprising to you when you saw that?

Jeff Salingo (18:22)

Yeah. So there's a correlate, you're making a correlation between those two charts that I didn't necessarily make. And it's an interesting discovery on your part. And that meant that there is, you know, highly selective colleges. They're represented well in the, in the Fortune 50 and less selective colleges are represented well in the Fortune 50, but that kind of middle group, you know, kind of just below the top is not as well represented. And those are also the places that have lost their, their full pay students significantly over the last 10 or 15 years. And again, I think that's a choice that parents are making. Yes, I'll pay, you know, at a private, I'll pay 70, 80 all in for this highly selective place where I can get a job and a really good job, but otherwise I'm going for half off or more at a less selective place that, you know, maybe I get a job, maybe I don't, but I at least am saving some money on the way that I can put into, you know, helping my kid launch, maybe giving them an experience that they wouldn't otherwise have. And that to me is some of the biggest changes happening right now in higher ed.

Abby or Lisa (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (19:36)

Along with that conclusion or observation, what were some other things that you found to be surprising that you learned or saw while writing the book?

Jeff Salingo (19:50)

So I think the biggest one was around student engagement. So I was able to persuade the National Survey of Student engagement which surveys nine surveys students at 900, 900 colleges participate in what's called NSSE. The National Survey of Student Engagement comes out from Indiana University. He's been around for 20 plus years. The thing I always hated about Dese is that they don't release the scores, these engagement scores of colleges and universities. They release them to the colleges, but then it's up to the colleges to decide if they want to publicize these scores. And NSSE surveys students on a variety of things like how much do you study and do you talk to peers and how much you interact with professors. Have you interns 18 different measures of engagement. And I was able to persuade Nesse. Well, what if I send you A list of 1200 colleges separated by selectivity, five buckets of selectivity. So the most selective colleges, all the way down to the least selective colleges, you match them up to the 900 colleges that participate in your survey. And by the way, students who participate in the survey at these colleges, they're either freshmen or seniors, so they survey students their first year, they survey students their fourth year to see how things change. The biggest takeaway from this was that at all levels of selectivity, only 4 or 5 percentage points were the difference between the most selective colleges and the least selective colleges. First of all, in terms of satisfaction on so many measures, including, by the way, faculty student interaction, you actually had higher scores among the less selective institutions than you had about the more selective. Goes back to what I was talking about with the kid in my lead who really didn't get to talk to his professors. You're going to do that at less selective institutions. And so if we tend to think that student engagement is the most important thing that happens during the undergraduate experience, that we're sending our kids to these highly selective brand name colleges because we want them to be totally engaged in what's around them, actually you're better off sending them to a less selective college because there's going to be more engagement there. Now why is that? My theory, and there's this theme throughout the book, is that there's this competition that's kind of never ending at these more selective colleges, and I heard this so often from the students I talked with, that I don't need to be smart, I don't need to show that I'm smart. I don't need to show, I don't need to repeat what I did in high school to get into a highly selective college again in college, to get that top job, I just want to learn, I want to be around people who enjoy themselves, I want to join some clubs, I want to take classes that I'm interested in, but don't really care about the grade. Like all these things you could do at Los Alto colleges and oh, by the way, get to know your professors. At the same time, there was a thing the other day. The 2026 Olympics are coming and one of the top figure skaters is not going to compete. And he, you know, because he wants to go to medical school instead. And he said, I've already achieved what I wanted to achieve, I don't need to keep achieving. And that's what I heard so often from these students who had decided, you know what, it's not worth it to me, or I did try at these highly selective colleges that I decided to transfer. And I think that's what really kind of kept coming back to me as I was reporting this book is that if we know why we're doing this, if we know why we're going into this process, if we're honest with ourselves about what we want out of the college experience more than just that name brand, I think you're going to make better choices in the end.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (23:30)

Yeah.

Abby or Lisa (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (23:30)

Could not agree more.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (23:31)

Yeah, 100%. I think that's so true. You know, I actually went to one of those skip over colleges that you had. But I don't know that it was a skip over back then.

Jeff Salingo (23:40)

Probably not at the time I went.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (23:41)

To Brandeis undergraduate, but it was, it was a small, you know, school. And I actually was able to. I didn't love the social life, but from a faculty engagement and from the opportunities that I had, I had, you know, I could do whatever I wanted to do. There was no, there were no limitations in my way. And then I did end up going to a name brand, a graduate school. So it felt that way.

Jeff Salingo (24:00)

And I think it's important to, you know, clarify for those who are listening who haven't read the book yet, that skip over schools doesn't mean that people are skipping them because they're academics. Yeah, no, just it means that they're right. It means that they're not willing to pay full price and that they want to chase merit. And there's nothing wrong with chasing merit.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (24:20)

No, absolutely not. And it's interesting because some of the schools during, you know, pre Covid, like I'm thinking of like Franklin and Marshall and even maybe Connecticut College, they weren't offering a lot of merit money. In fact, Franklin and Marshall wasn't offering any merit money at all. And then they realized they couldn't compete unless they offered me merit money. So we're definitely seeing that. And even with, you know, some of the, the public universities as well for out of state students. But one of the things that was really interesting that you talked about was the difference between foundational skills and technical skills. And that these are, this is what students need both for the current job market. And we've definitely seen this with our clients and our kids, our own kids. Like for example, my youngest graduated with a degree in film and media studies and a minor in marketing. So you would say, okay, what are you going to do with that particular degree? She graduated in 21. So she didn't get to do her internship because of COVID So she just kind of took a job and was kind of one of those post Covid kids that was just not. Hadn't quite figured out what she wanted to do. So I had recommended that she go back and get one of these, you know, micro credentials and get a certificate in data analytics because she found that some of the jobs she thought she wanted needed that. And then she ended up getting a job and using that. And now she's, she's good, she's in a good place. But it was just interesting because it was that almost that data analytics that she didn't necessarily feel like she got in school, that she was able to get outside of school. But it was the critical thinking and the strategic writing, the way to communicate well, those are all the things that are helping her do really well in her job. So can you kind of describe the difference in what you're seeing colleges are doing to try to bring those two together?

Jeff Salingo (26:00)

Yeah. So I think it's really critical. These foundational skills are critical thinking, communication, problem solving that are really transferable to any career. Specialized skills are really domain specific coding or data analytics that are really critical to particular jobs. And both are essential. Right. This is the problem I think with the liberal arts right now is that you get those foundational skills, but then you don't get very specific skills, skills that help you specialize, skills that help you get a job. Example, being a history major who knows how to do either data analytics or data visualization really puts them over the top in terms of getting those jobs. And the problem right now is that many schools don't tell students they need to do this, don't encourage it, really, the faculty don't know it or they don't want to encourage it because they see kind of job training as like a dirty word and they don't want to talk about it. So I really think it's up to you to go to colleges that are going to give you that experience, are going to encourage urgent. You know, Denison University, which is one of the schools I highlight and the book is very focused on career services from day one. Very focused on getting these very specialized skills, whether on campus or taking courses during winter break or getting hands on experiences like that's what you're looking for. Those places that will either encourage you, give you a pathway to get those, you know, that skill set, maybe even help you get those micro credentials that I talk about. But the problem is most parents don't know to Ask those questions. And I think this is why so many students now are going into specialized careers. They want to be a nurse or they want to be an engineer or they want to be a computer coder because they're very specific. They know, well, that's a job that's going to lead or that's a major that's going to lead to a job. By the way, I'm questioning that giving AI. So I actually think, right, I actually think that having this, this broad set of foundational skills is great as long as you pair it with something that gives you a very specialized skill in a major.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (28:02)

I think that's such, that's such great advice. And it's so true that there are certain families who are like, the goal of this is to have a job by the end. And then it's a very different thinking than when we were going to school, which was that you want to get this broad based education, learn how to learn, learn how to think, and then that will take you where you need to go in your career. So it is, it is a very good motivation. And we actually, we interviewed on episode 29, we talk about hacking college when we interviewed, talking about exactly how you can do that. And you gave some examples as well of how have you seen kids pair those things together, the specialized and the foundational skills successfully.

Jeff Salingo (28:44)

So I think that it mostly comes from students understanding what are the job requirements for jobs that they may want to have. So I always encourage students, once they kind of figure out maybe a major or maybe they've interned, maybe they've job shadowed in some way, to start to look at job ads, to see what employers are looking for and look at the skill set that they're looking, that they're advertising. And if you don't have some of those skills, that's how you can start to parent, no matter what major you have. You know, I talk in the book about marketing. You know, having data analytics with marketing is incredibly important, but you wouldn't know that unless you looked at the job ad, right?

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (29:26)

No such great advice. And I loved how in the book you talked about going on to LinkedIn and looking at the company or the colleges where students went and then seeing where they're working and then seeing what their skills were. That was really great advice.

Stephanie (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (29:40)

So I've been spending a lot of time in your appendix, so I just wanted to bring that up. The new dream schools, a selected list. And to quote you, you say that finding your dream school isn't about fixating on a single name. Or a universally understood brand like the Ivy League. It's about choosing a place where you can thrive, learn and become the person you're meant to be. And you say, you go on to say to help us, you being the reader in that endeavor, that you compiled the following list of colleges that might not, but perhaps should be on our radar. I would love if you could walk us through how you came up with your ratings for the schools in the appendix and the three categories of schools. The three categories being Hidden Values, Breakout, Regionals, and Large Leaders.

Jeff Salingo (30:24)

This list makes me very nervous.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (30:28)

For.

Jeff Salingo (30:28)

The main reason why I don't love rankings. And so it's, I want to be very clear. It's not a ranking, it's not a rating, it's not a definitive list. I find I talked earlier when I encourage people to look deeper in the rankings for schools that are further quote unquote down the list. They always say, well, what am I looking for? This is all confusing to me. Jeff, you have done this every day for 25 years. Of course you know these places. Just give us some examples. And that's really what the list is about. The list is to give us some examples that put the tools that I outline in the book to work to showcase some of these schools. And so we looked at a universe of four year schools. So we had to start somewhere. So we looked only at four year schools, not two year schools. Although I talk about the benefits of two year schools in the book. We looked at institutions with over a thousand students, largely because given the financial realities of higher ed, in talking to a number of people, they think that colleges under a thousand students, if they don't have large endowments or a lot of cash on hand, are going to be in trouble. And I kind of to want, wanted to stay away from those schools as a result. So that gave us a universe of still a couple hundred schools as a result. And then what we looked at was are they accessible? So I took out any school that had under 20% acceptance rate because basically go read how who gets in and why, if you really want to know one of those schools. I wanted schools that were more accessible. And in fact most of the schools on the list have acceptance rates 30 and above. Most of them, 40, 50, 60 and above. Then we looked at financial sustainability overall, even beyond the thousand number to make sure that these were not schools that were in real trouble. And we looked at a number of factors on that. We looked at their outcomes. How much are you going to pay to go to this place and how much are you going to make in return? So essentially what we're calling a earnings to net price ratio. But those numbers can be manipulated. Not manipulated, but can be misleading. If you go to a school that has a high number of STEM majors, for example, and everyone goes into engineering, computer science, you're going to have great outcomes. So we also looked at data about the wide variety of jobs that students are getting from schools. We looked at graduation rates and earnings based on the students they're bringing in. It's very easy to be Harvard and bring in the best students and really not ruin them for four years. It's much harder for schools to take somebody who is from the lowest income, no social capital, and turn them into something that's great. And those are the schools that I wanted to highlight. So those are all the different measures that we looked at. We used a bunch of different data sets and mashed them together to come up with this list. And then we weighted it so we had a mix of publics and privates, also geographic diversity as well, to end up with this list of 75. But then, to be honest with you, as I was looking at the list of 75, I felt that a little further separating them out was necessary. And why is that? Because some of them are regional publics, for example. So if Montclair State University, New Jersey is one of them, if you don't live in New Jersey, you're probably not going to go to Montclair, and that's fine. But if you're in New Jersey, you should definitely look at it. So we wanted to separate these schools out into, as you said, hidden values. These tend to be smaller privates that we tend to kind of forget about because they're not in the news every day. As I said, these breakout regionals, these are mostly publics, but some privates that are really well known within their state but increasingly are known within their region. And then really the large leaders, these are places that compete in some ways with the, you know, the flagship universities. So an NC State, for example, not Carolina, Michigan State, not the University of Michigan. Places like that that I think that people tend to not recognize and should. And that's what we ended up doing with these three buckets. There's no differences between the buckets. Really what I was trying to do was filter them in some way so that if I'm a student in California, I could start to see what might be possible for somebody in my backyard.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (34:47)

Really helpful. Well, it'll be interesting to see if this becomes the new list. The New the Jeff Salingo list. People will start quoting it. What do you think are some. We always like to end with myths and truths about finding the right college. So through this, what have you found to be some myths and truths about it?

Jeff Salingo (35:06)

Well, rankings and selectivity might be are seen as a proxy for quality among parents and they're not. They just don't equal that. Right. So I think that's one thing second is that you could get a really good deal at less selective institutions. I think that's a truth that I think that most parents don't quite understand, especially if they're new to the process. I'm amazed in the last book I had the buyers and sellers list. When I explain kind of the buyers, which are the vast majority of institutions which are using using merit aid to try to attract students. I get this blank look from parents because they think financial aid equals financial need. They don't really realize how colleges and universities are using financial aid as an enrollment tool, as a discounting tool to get their students. And so as a result, they kind of discount those colleges right off the bat because they're not kind of in their wheelhouse academically or they don't think they have the best brand name. And I keep telling them don't take those off the list because you actually might get a really good deal from them. Many of them, by the way, end up in the dream school list at the end of the book and they have great outcomes to boot. And I think that's the other thing is that they really don't look at the outcomes data, especially in these very popular majors. So you may remember in reading the book that there's a student who was interested in Holy Cross, ends up going to Laon, Maryland because the father, who's a teacher realizes that his daughter who wanted a major in math is actually going to have pretty similar outcomes among a bunch of different places, whether she goes to Johns Hopkins or Layell of Maryland. Two very different places, selectivity wise, two very different places in terms of the rankings. But you know what, their outcomes in terms of salaries pretty similar when you look at the data. And that's the thing that I don't think parents look at now there may be more differences if you're an English major at one compared to the other. But if you're going to major in what the vast majority of students major in business, stem, you know, pre professional programs, the outcomes are remarkably, I'm shockingly in some ways similar between a lot of different colleges.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (37:29)

I think it's Also important to note that I don't know if you took into account graduate school because you made an allusion to it earlier. But if you're going on to medical school or law school or business school or any, any graduate school, it really matters more about what you do there and how well you do and how engaged you are and how prepared you are for that graduate school, because that's what they care about. They don't really care necessarily where you went to school school. They just care about how well you've done.

Jeff Salingo (37:55)

Yeah. And there's a student in chapter two who went to such a small college that I don't even name it in the book because she could be then easily identifiable, but she ends up going to Harvard Law School and not only goes to Harvard Law School, but ends up on the Harvard Law Review from this very tiny liberal arts college that is not even in the top 100. And she talks about her experience at that small liberal arts college where she got to know the president. She spent a lot of time, time with professors, and by the way, professors who really cared about seeing her succeed, including getting into Harvard Law School. If you go to a top 10 school and you want to go to Harvard Law School, first of all, there's a million people trying to get at that school. And no professor or that school's not really going to help you because it's not really a feather in their cap if you end up going to Harvard Law School. But if you come from these small little colleges where maybe every other year or maybe every five years, they send somebody to a place like Harvard Law School, holy cow, are they going to put a lot of time, effort and even money behind you to make sure you succeed?

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (38:57)

Yeah. So true. I had a student that I worked with for medical school and he went to Baruch College, undergraduates from New York City. And he was there for two years, and then he transferred to Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, and did, did very well at Johns Hopkins. Really smart young man. But then he decided for medical school, he's like, you know what I've done? The press, prestige. And I didn't really like it so much. I mean, I got a good education at Hopkins, but I don't want that in medical school. I just want to be a doctor. So just get me into any medical school. And he was like, very happy to go to, you know, any American medical school. So it was just a different mentality when he was looking at that for graduate school. So it's interesting. All right, Any last pearls of wisdom you'd like to share with our listeners.

Jeff Salingo (39:39)

I just want people to at least give this idea of a chance. I'm trying to give parents permission because I think there's a permission to structure that's needed here. You asked about how do we persuade parents to look deeper in the rankings to widen their lens on the college search. And I think a lot of it is. And as you mentioned, I did a survey of more than 3,000 parents. And when you ask them about prestige and who prestige was important to, it wasn't that important to them. Although sometimes I don't always believe that maybe it was a little bit more important to their kids. But you know, who was really important to, to their neighbors, their friends, people in their community. And so that's really, it's all about that signal that it sends to other parents. Hey, we must be a good parent. We're sending our kid to, you know, fill in the blank of Lee College. And so I feel like when I start to talk to parents about this message, especially in these like cities where there's this panicking class of parents who are so worried about their kids, I really feel like I need to give them permission to say, you know what, it's okay, it's okay that my kid is not going to those highly elite colleges. By the way, I'm going to have a lot more money to spend on them. You know, years later they might end up with a great mentor, they might end up with lifelong friends. They might really discover their true passion because they're not so pressured to find the right thing. It may actually bring joy back to their this process. I know that's a hard argument to make with a lot of the families and parents and students that we come in contact with, but I just want them to think for a moment about it again. Doesn't mean they can't apply. It doesn't mean that they don't apply to these high, high index schools. But hey, just throw an application to some of these others. You might be surprised.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (41:29)

Well, maybe now that will be the new bragging rights is how, how little did I pay for college and how much merit did my kid get?

Jeff Salingo (41:36)

You know, I hope so, I hope so.

Lisa or Abby (Co-host of College Bell Mentor) (41:38)

I hope so. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure and we really enjoyed your book. We will definitely thank you CDM ers for tuning in. Thank you, Jeff for this amazing conversation. We will have links to purchase your new book, Dream School, which came out on September 9th. You can also subscribe to Jeff's amazing newsletter and listen to his podcast to catch more episodes of College Bell Mentor. Make sure to follow, review or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about this podcast. To learn more, visit collegeboundmentor.com until next time. You got this.