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- [00:02]
A
The people that loved their jobs the most. Hands down, it started out as something they like to do in middle school and high school.
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B
Hey cbmers, welcome back to College Bell Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We're your co hosts, Lisa and Stephanie, and on today's episode, we are very excited to chat with Anna Homoyum. Anna is a noted author, academic advisor, and early career development strategist. Her work focuses on helping students develop executive functioning skills in today's technology and social media world and on helping workplaces support staff members for retention and growth. Her latest book, Getting in is not the New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades, test scores and College Admissions, offers a timely and essential framework for parents, educators and students navigating this critical moment. So are you trying to tell us that all of our seniors who just committed on May 1, it's not enough, they have to do more?
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A
Well, thanks so much for having me. And the whole goal of the book and the approach is actually to be confidence building, not fear inducing. But what we found was that a lot of people are so focused on this acceptance, even from like younger and younger ages, and that the idea of what are the skills that students need once they get into college almost seems irrelevant. And so many times I hear parents say, but they got into college so they're clearly ready. And we, we work with students. That, that is not always the case. And so I really want to help parents and also help students reshift the framework around how we talk about this.
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B
Right. And you open your book, like scrolling through Instagram videos and watching those college reaction videos, which, you know, we've all seen and they are very exciting to watch. Right, but what was the moment that you realized that something was off like, this needs to be a book, right?
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A
Well, there are two things. One was with those Instagram videos where, you know, I'm scrolling through, I see all these different acceptance videos, but I also know that there are students like Lauren at the beginning of my book who was not getting an acceptance, was deferred and was really upset about it. And so it's one thing to experience rejection, which is a normal part of life or a deferral or disappointment. Right, that's normal. But it's another to now have it, you know, sort of shoved down your face 47 different ways all the time. So that was the first thing. And you know, honestly, I said in the book, like, I felt like I was being trolled because my own friends were posting them of their kids. And I was excited for Their kids. But I also was like, I work with teenagers, so I see a different picture. But the second thing, and I think is really important is that one of the young men in the book, Henry, who was in my first book, that crumpled paper, was due last week. Henry's mom had emailed me and said, you know, Henry's now, like, he was 27, 28 at the time. He's thriving in his career. And it said, he says it's all based on things he learned in your office. And I thought it was really interesting because Henry, when he came into my office, I talk about in that crumpled paper was due last week, was really a struggling student in a lot of different ways and also didn't have confidence in his abilities. So the whole point of getting in is not enough, is to go back. I interviewed my students from 15 years ago to hear their stories. What were those key skills? And then, you know, mix that in with the research and what we see and then what my own experiences over 25 years of working with teenagers. Right.
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B
And I love the line in your book where you say, focus on the habits, not the grades or the scores. And I think that's so important because if you can build, you know, good habits early on, then the rest will follow. And so how do you. How does that change the narrative? And can you just, like, walk us through for our listeners, like, what. What executive functioning actually is and why it matters so much more than people realize?
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A
Yeah, well, for the first part, you know, executive functioning are those key skills that help us, and I talk about in the book, organize, plan, prioritize, start and complete tasks and be adaptable when things don't go as planned. There's a lot of different, like, workings within that. But that's the framework I use in the book, because from an academic standpoint, it's the best way to think of that as a parent who. Who has an academic student. But the other piece to think about, and this is how I work with students, is that if we can focus on the habits rather than the grades, I feel like the grades are lagging indicators. But the habits are things we can control every day. Our routines are things that we have autonomy around. So my whole goal in my work is to help build intrinsic motivation. So the research around intrinsic motivation, we know that when you have a sense of control or autonomy, it helps build that. Well, when you can focus on the habits that you have control of, that helps. And it helps to build your sense of competence. Well, you know, you might not be able to control the Fact that the test average was a 54, or that everyone got, you know, the highest grade was a B in a class. But you can control how you slept, how you studied, how you reviewed material, what you did day in and day out. And then finally, that also, we hope, builds a sense of belonging, because when you are feeling that you have control and you're competent to make good choices, then it builds a sense of relatedness within your school and greater community. So the reason that I focus on these underlying skills is that from the very beginning, I have seen it make a remarkable difference. So when I first started working with students in 2001, you know, there was no Gmail, there was no Instagram. There were no all these things, all
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B
these distractions that get in the way.
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A
True. And my students who had dyslexia would drive to get cassette tapes from the reading center for blind and dyslexic. So this whole scenario has changed over the last 20 years, but what's remained the same is that I saw that students who had daily habits and routines that enabled them to manage distractions, to get started on work, to complete tasks were able to do far better in school than the kids that their parents would call me and say, he's so smart. He's so intelligent.
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B
Get his work done right. He just doesn't try.
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A
Right. And I saw for those kids, though, it really reduced their confidence when they weren't seeing the outcomes, and then that translated into not taking the next class that they might have been intellectually qualified for. So it's a whole conversation about, how do we help students become the best versions of themselves in a way that builds their confidence and reduces the anxiety and fear.
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B
No, I think that's. That's so true. And I'm also just wondering, like, how did you get into this work? Because you said you started in 2001, so 25 years ago. And were you originally helped helping people with executive function skills and then you led into helping them to get into college, or were you helping them get into college and realized that there was a. There was a gap in executive function skills that was preventing them from finishing through those tasks?
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C
Yeah.
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A
So from the very beginning, I started with executive functioning skills, but my own college, the director of college advising at my own high school was the one who encouraged me to really go back and get my master's in counseling and become a college advisor, which I did pretty early on because I was helping students navigate school, and then they would get to this college application process. And there's a lot of Pieces that involve all of the executive functions. We talk about working memory, inhibitory control, emotional regulation, all the things that you all know because you work with students every day, that if you don't have them, it's going to be very hard to apply to college, much less see the results that you might want or find the right school for you. Very early on, I sort of started working with students on executive functioning skills because I saw this gap. I was working with students that had significant learning differences that were doing really well in school because they had habits and routines. And then I was working with students who their grades really didn't reflect their abilities. And I saw this gap. And so that's. We, you know, I developed my own curriculum around this and we've refined it and we bring this work through our nonprofit into schools. So this has been my life's work. And the applying to college, I feel like, is a very key time in the student's journey, as you know. And it's a great time to hone in, develop, and, you know, highlight those executive functioning skills.
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C
Right.
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B
And they, and they come out if they're, if they're not there, you know, they definitely come out when they're not there because we see them.
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A
I'm sure we could go back and forth so many stories, but.
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B
Yes, we could. Yes, we could.
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C
I just, you mentioned a little while ago the five focus points, and you do such a great job of honing that in. Right. To organizing, planning, prioritizing, starting and completing tasks and adaptable thinking. And can you just review that for our listeners and maybe an example of how that could apply to a student going through a process or going through the college application process?
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A
Sure. So organizing is all about being able to figure out all the pieces that you need and create a system for them. And we can see, we all have seen that child with color coded binders and all the things, but then might struggle with prioritizing. Right. They might not realize what's urgent versus important and then they become overwhelmed and then just step back and just like, not start anything. So that's the organizing and then the prioritizing. And when it comes to college applications, we know all the time the student who's like doing all the little things like filling out the common app or doing the activities. But you're like, but that personal statement, where is that? We're working on it. We're working on it. And we're like, in October.
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C
Yep.
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A
And then starting and completing tasks is really about. Sometimes I see students who really struggle to get Started. So they might need a body double, they might need a designated time, they might need structured support. But once they get started, they can finish pretty easily. And then we see students who, once they get started, they then like, you know, go here or they're cleaning out their closet, and then they, you know, those are people who should probably not do work in their room. It's most of us, right? We. Our rooms are very distracting. And then we talked about this adaptable thinking. Now, this is really interesting for me as a researcher and also someone who works with early career development, because one of the things I found with students who are hyper organized and even could prioritize and get things done if they were not adaptable once they joined the workforce, it was very hard. So they were straight A students in high school. They followed all the rules because it gave them a structured system. But if they went into an office setting where the, the boss was like, hey, you know what? This, this project, we're going to pivot on this. Or, you know, I know I said that that was due two weeks from now, but actually we have a change. They fall apart in a lot of ways. And I saw how that was a really direct correlation with this idea of getting in is not enough. That when kids can be adaptable and adaptability can also be around, how do you navigate disappointment? Maybe you got deferred. Maybe your first choice or what you thought was your first choice isn't. Um, what happens. What I found, and I'm curious for, for your experience, a lot of times I find the kids are more adaptable sometimes than their parents or the adult room. I think that's like, I'm done. Like, okay, they didn't let me in.
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B
I'm cool.
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A
Like, we're gonna follow. I got other choices. And then the parent is the person I really need to sit with and, and help help them process that the vision has changed, right?
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B
Like, what happened? What went wrong? Why, you know, what did we. What did, you know, what could we have done differently? And. And you're right. And then the kid is like, yeah, I'm happy with it. And it's so interesting you talk about the adaptability because when you see a student, like, you know, this year, I was thinking about certain students that didn't get into their early decision choice, but then they had a lot of different options, you know, and they were very open and flexible to where was going to be the best fit and how they were going to find their way. And they didn't ever take it personally. They just kind of move forward, and they were open and excited about the opportunities. And then there were other kids that got very fixated if they didn't get into where they wanted, and they took it very personally, and they weren't as open. And finally they got open to it once they went back and visited the schools. But it was very interesting. That adaptability, I think, is a really good point.
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A
Yeah. And I think that parent modeling here is really helpful. And parents. You know, I'm really empathetic because I think so much of parents own stuff comes up in middle school and high school and definitely through the college application process. And so many parents have been so open with me and generous with how they are feeling. And it is this moment where you sort of have to catch yourself because how you model disappointment or moving on from disappointment. And I use the example of my own parents really well. Like, what I talk about in the book is that I got rejected early decision when my senior year. And I was really bummed. And I was really upset with my parents because I was like, I followed all the rules. I got all the grades, I did all the activities. I did everything everyone said. And my mom gave me, really, a day to, like, mope and pout and do all the things. And I also did what I tell kids never to do, which is like, I'm gonna wait to see where I get an early decision, and then I'm gonna do the rest of my applications. Don't ever do that, children. I don't let anyone do that.
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B
But.
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A
So here we are, December 22nd. I have eight applications to finish, and we have to postmark them. Right. So my mom gives me about a day to mope, and then she says, pull it together. She was like, this is not the end. Like, and my mom is like, the immigrant resourcefulness. That's right.
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B
Get it together.
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A
Get it together. I'll give you 24 hours to 48 hours to mope. But then we got to get this party started. And, you know, and I say this, like, I in January had this interview that went so well for my. The college that I ultimately went to that I really knew it was the place for me. I was like. I came home from it, and I was just like, and it all worked out. And it wouldn't have worked out, and it wouldn't have, you know, like, adaptability. Like, you get to be disappointed. So I'm not telling people not to process disappointment or just experience it, because that's a normal part of getting through something. And one of the things I talk about Is how much time and energy does it take you to get to the other side? Like every minor or major, it is so life altering. It's gonna be really exhausting. So how do we process disappointment in a healthy way?
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B
One of my favorite lines I heard Oprah say was feel the feels and then take the wheel. Yeah.
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A
Oh, I love that. That's so true.
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B
I say that all the time. Like, feel the feels and then take the wheel. Like kind of move on.
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A
I feel like that's so true for a college application and all this time in high school anyways. Yeah.
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C
So going back.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Oh, we could talk about Oprah lines for a bit. So some kids, right, they naturally figure out how to organize and plan, but they just can't prioritize. And I have a lot of empathy with them on that. So how do you know? Or how does the parent know? You know, we need to step in. I need to help my student figure this out or help my child figure this out.
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A
Well, a couple things to think about. I am a big believer of doing things in parallel, not for them. And I think this comes out for a lot of parents where they don't know how to do things in parallel. And it's all about asking open ended questions without judgment. First of all, so that you're not saying, I think you should do this first, so it's more like, walk me through what you've got to do, what do you think is the priority, and then just be curious. And it's really about tone. But the second part, and this is where all of our jobs come in, is that I always tell parents this might not be the role for you. Like, college brings up a lot of emotions. And so prioritizing, if you need your job as a parent is to make sure that your child has a trusted adult that you trust and that might not be you for this process because we don't want in junior and senior and wherever years that every, every conversation turns into college, like, or dead ends into college or the application or what are you doing? And so the idea of prioritizing and when parents should step in is also knowing what are the appropriate resources for my child so that we maintain our relationship and that we, you know, they get where they want to go, that's appropriate for them. And so, you know, and I always say, you know, maybe it's a family friend, maybe it's somebody else taking the wheel for certain things. Maybe it's working with an independent counselor. As long as you find the right set of resources so that your Relationship is really prioritized because these are the last two years that sometimes they'll be at home for the most amount of time. That's really helpful. And at the same point, I think we underestimate also post pandemic also the students that I see right now, how stress really impacts the development of our executive functioning skills. And we know that boys are around two, three years behind girls in terms of brain development. And our executive functions are impacted by that difference in brain development. Sometimes we'll say, they've heard the messaging. You should just let your kid fail or figure it out. We wouldn't do that. You know, we want to give them the right support and resources so that they have structured support. So I feel like identifying what resources are appropriate for your child and what's working and what's not is a question that you have to ask yourself. And there's no one size fits all solution there.
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C
Yeah, I love that. I think that's so important to hear for parents to have that awareness and to that reflection and to be honest with yourself, like, you know, what our relationship is first. And if this doesn't work for that process, like outsource, and that outsource doesn't work mean hiring someone that outsource can be that family friend that they trust or a friend that they trust or. Yeah, I love that. So thank you for saying that. It's.
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B
It's.
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C
It's so.
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B
Watching Friends and Neighbors. Have you been watching that show on?
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C
No, I'm in the first season.
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B
Okay. Well, in the second season, the daughter, like, spoiler alert. She gets into Princeton, and that's where both of the parents go. You know, it's Jon Ham and.
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C
Oh, yeah. Their visit to there. Yeah.
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A
And.
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B
And Amanda Pete plays the mom. I forget her name. But then the daughter just. She's a tennis player, and she has this, like, crazy interview. You're like, that would never happen. She basically tells off the interview guy, but she gets in, and then she declines. And Amanda Pete, the mom, is, like, going absolutely bananas and insane, and she's trying to use her contacts to get her back, you know, to, like, get her decline revoked. And so it's like this whole, like, battle.
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A
I'm gonna have to watch that.
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C
So you all. You talk a lot about learning, the process of learning. So do you think we have lost that lesson along the way? Because I kind of think we have. So, you know, and how do we get back to that?
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A
I love that you say this, because it is so something I worry about the transactional nature of how students go through school today. And I worry about it for a number of reasons. One, you know, my office is located in the heart of the Silicon Valley. I grew up here. It's the weirdest place to be a kid. I say that all the time. And I grew up here, which is why my office is here. Because I'm like, I feel a sense of obligation to these students because I get it. But what's happened is it's like, okay, these are the things, transactionally, I need to do to get to this next place. And that that includes, like, this. This is not just academics. This is social. This is. What are you curious about? And I go back all the time to what? Lisa Belkin, who's New York Times. Longtime New York Times journalist. She used to write a lot about people's careers. And I interview. I met with her right after my first book came out. And I actually, I write about it in this book as well, because it stuck with me for so long, like, 15 years. And she said, ana, you know, the most interesting thing that I found in my research of women careers, people in general in their careers, is that the people that loved their jobs the most, hands down, it started out as something they like to do in middle school and high school. And part of what is so important to me is that with executive functioning skills and teaching these skills, is that we want kids to have more time to still be curious, to be learning, to not look at things so transactionally. And I am afraid that a lot of times, that's what happens. And then you have kids who come out of school and join the workforce, young adults, and they're like, wait a second, I did all this for this?
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B
Really? Like, when's my vacation? Right.
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A
They've never connected what they like to do with that. There are many opportunities, and I don't know if you've taken a look, but I highly recommend Jodi Kantor's new book, how to Start. It's short, I think every high school student. Yeah, yeah. Just came out a couple of weeks ago. How to Start. Yeah. Okay. And it just came out. Oh, my gosh. I have it here. Not that I'm. Jodi doesn't know this, but, like, I. So it's like 100 pages. Okay. I read it in one sitting. And she really talks about something that's very core for me, which is you can do. There's so many ways you can have a job. There are so many ways you can work. I thought about this when I came out of College in 2001 and 9. 11 happened. All my friends got laid off. I got, like, everything happened at once, right? But I knew I wanted to work with kids. That was my. My craft. And I found this need. And I think that what gets lost in this AI conversation or uncertainty about work today is that we're losing that curiosity that leads to our pleasure, that leads to. You can figure out your own path, your own blueprint, rather than borrowing someone else's. And that's the core of this work, is that these four pillars that I talk about in the book, the key idea here is we can support kids and figuring out what their path is. And when we do it that way, like, we don't know what the jobs that are going to exist in 10 to 15 years are going to be, but we do know those underlying skills that you're going to need no matter what. And they keep, Keep coming back. And people say, you know, these are the AI proof, you know, skills you're needing. And it's really a lot of the stuff that I've been talking about. So back to your question, which is, I think is an important one, is have we lost this, like, love for learning and an understanding for learning? I think in some ways, yes. And then the other thing I'll say, though, is no, because when have you ever worked with a teenager who wants to figure something out and will go on YouTube and will do all the things? So that gives me hope. I feel like we want to encourage that and the resources that exist now and understand that it's just changed and then get away from that transactional, like, what do I need to do to get an A, Right?
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B
And that's hard to do. But you. It is true when you see the kids go down that rabbit hole of YouTube and, like, that's always a great question when we say, like, what, you go down the rabbit hole?
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A
You know, exactly.
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B
You know, what. What's that? That takes you down there and then you. That's when you really get at the intellectual curiosity. And it's so interesting that you say about middle schools. I'll tell a funny middle. Middle school story. It was like, I was in ninth grade because, you know, in California, ninth grade is still.
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A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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B
Malibu Park Junior. And I was in Intro to. I was chemistry course. I'm terrible at chemistry. Well, I don't know about. I was terrible at chemistry, probably still am. And we had this final exam, which was called the sludge test. And basically you had to. And my friend, my. My best friend Julia, who also is terrible chemistry we were partners, which was a. Which was a disaster. And so we got this. This unidentifiable sludge, and we had to do all these. These series of tests to figure out what it was. And so long story short, we. We got all the data, but then we broke it. Like, we took it back to my house. We, like, didn't have time, and we were using like a. A fondue pot as our Bunsen burner. And then at one point, I, like, broke it. And then, like, we lose. We lost all of the stuff. So what. So what do we do? We called all of our friends, you know, because we were very friendly and social, so we called all of our friends and we kind of interviewed them and we asked them, well, what did
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A
you find when you did this?
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B
And we had to knew a little bit, enough just to kind of make it sound like we had done it as well. And we gathered all of the information, we synthesized it all together, we wrote it up, and we got the best grade in the class. And so those are the core skills that I still use today, which is interviewing, talking to people, figuring out how to sort of synthesize things. And she's a lawyer. And so we joke about that. That class, we didn't learn anything about chemistry, but we learned those core skills. Core skills.
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A
And one of the things that come a lot of times people don't also realize what comes east to them doesn't come easy to everyone. I find this with a lot of my students. I've been thinking a lot about one of the students in the book who is incredibly successful now, but was an incredibly challenged student in many ways. But he had the sales ability that, like, charismatic. And you just. Whatever he was selling, you would figure out how to buy. And literally, he is the head of sales at some global organization now. And I, I sit back because I got this LinkedIn update and I was like, yeah, I knew that. But I didn't want this kid to lose his confidence in high school because he was constantly getting told, no, you're doing it wrong. So. But yes, when you were able to see those skills in yourself and. And to him, it was like, oh, I do this easily. Like, I'm like, yeah, but that's not easy for everyone. So that's one of the good things about seeing what you're good at.
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B
No, I think that's very true. And in fact, in the example of Joseph, you describe this gaining confidence outside of the classroom and that that could build skills that can be transferable later. So I love the line when you say acceptance builds confidence by allowing kids to develop a sense of competence. So can you talk a little bit about what you meant by that and, and how you thought about that and some examples about that?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So.
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A
Well, Joseph was a student who struggled academically in school. He had a learning difference, but also like his executive functioning skills were, you know, there was a lot of room for growth. And that's typical of a lot of students in high school who may struggle in school. But if you gave him a task outside of the classroom, like if you had him try and entrepreneurially, his brain was working. Like, he's got car wash business, he's got his friends, he's organizing the things, and he gets excited about it. And he's one of those personalities that gets other people excited about everything. So you. That's just a skill that not everybody has. And so one of the things I often say is so important for every child, but particularly those that may not be finding the wins in the classroom, is that they find the wins outside of the classroom. So so many times they'll get a summer job that's like working with the general public where they really thrive, or they're getting something where they're organizing an event, and that's a skill for them. And they just, you know, they're a great emcee or they're a great person that host that puts people at ease. So it's really up to parents to step back and our trusted adults in our network to say, you're really good at this. Have you ever thought about this? Because when I say that to kids all the time, sometimes they'll say, I never really thought of that, or, gosh, that's just like second nature. So the way that we can help students find wins outside the classroom, really also. And that doesn't even have to be outside the school community. So back to Henry. Henry, who was diagnosed with adhd, he still has his morning and evening routines. He's now in his early 30s. You know, one of the things for him was that he was a drummer. And the school asked him to play the drums in front of the entire school, which is like 1500 people. And then he got known to be a drummer and like, you know, this whole other identity and Persona that was outside of the classroom but still in the school, school community really helped define his sense of self. So again, it's all about us as trusted adults helping to suggest and encourage and navigate and say, I see this in you.
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B
And I think the, the key in that is also for parents to accept that. Because if parents have a very, you know, they see their kids in, you know, in one way, and then if they're not fitting within that mold, it's hard to sometimes not minimize. They can minimize those. Those skills and not realize that they're actually super important for them.
- [28:29]
A
Absolutely. And especially when we think of the working world and the working world changing so much, so many of the skills that we need to get straight A's aren't necessarily the exact same that what we need to navigate a workforce that's changing with uncertainty. Now, I'm not saying that you don't want both, but I'm also saying, like, we want to help students navigate a space that's ever changing in a way that builds their confidence. Like, oh, I have transferable skills, and I'm going to build these things that I'm good at. I also want to say one thing about what you said, which I think is really important about parents who, you know, really focus on one sense of success or one. I think one of the things I talk about in the book, the third pillar, is perspective and expanding our perspective of what success looks like. And one of the things I've found in so many communities that I visited around the country is that there's just a very narrow definition of success that happens in very resourced and affluent communities, that there's like one narrow definition. But then if we talk to people whose kids are 20 years out, out of college, like, I have a lot of friends who are retired or in their 70s and 80s, they have grandkids, and they're, you know, if you ask them, how did your kids, like, find their way? It was totally different than what they would have thought. And the earlier parents can get to this expanded perspective. It just also reduces their own stress around feeling like there's one pathway forward. And I think. I think in the last few years, people have, especially post pandemic people have expanded the notions because things just changed. But I do think that it's really important for us to keep reminding ourselves. And last thing I'll say about that, I work with some families that have four kids, and I joke with them. I was like, you have four, all very different kids because you've been so good at letting each kid be exactly who they are. And I give them credit. They're like, it's kind of exhausting. But yeah, that's. That's one of the things that we want to make sure every child is able to do.
- [30:23]
B
And usually when you have four kids, you're usually different with the fourth kid than you are with the first kid. So you have. Yes, as a parent, you know, I have, I have three kids. And so my oldest will say, oh, you were very demanding, you know. And my youngest will be like, oh, you just let me do whatever I wanted. So it's like a very.
- [30:39]
A
So sounds about right.
- [30:41]
B
Let's go back to Lauren. So you mentioned her briefly and sort of this very capable senior who got deferred from her dream school. And then suddenly, and you know, it's December, you were saying like, you don't want that to happen. We never want that to happen with our students. But it does happen, right? You have. All of a sudden it's like December and they've got nine applications. And then usually at that point they add more applications because they're freaking out. And so how do you help someone break down that panic state? Like, I've got to get all this stuff done. You know, we can be like your mom and just be like, got a day. Get it together and then move forward. But how do you help? How do. What does it practically look like when you break the application process into manageable pieces?
- [31:21]
A
It's such a great question. And I know you all are so good at doing this as well. Well, the first thing is, you know, name it to tame it. Like name what they're feeling, helping them name what they're feeling. And the research out of UCLA shows that once we do that, it actually takes our brain out of panic mode. So it seems like you feel really overwhelmed right now. Is that right? And just naming it in a very calm way can be helpful. The second though, around this is really just taking the time to redirect, like get some movement and don't try. And when they're in this upset and panic state to try and say, okay, we need to finish these seven applications, even take the rest of the day off. I remember I always talk about the time when I was in college and I had my first chemistry midterm and I did poorly on it. And I called my dad and I said, you know, I don't think I was supposed to be here. And he was like, you need to take the rest of the day off and go to office hours. He was so calm. Which brings me my third point is that this idea of de escalating and co regulating and, and that's really where parents come in. It's like your reaction as a regulated, calm adult calms the teenager down. And there's all this research about this around this. So you know, how you react is all about if you. If you need to be upset, go be upset. Squirrels. But take a moment and be calm and be able to say, you know, hey, we're going to have this moment. And so Lauren's parents had that moment with me. So I actually didn't work with Lauren on the college application process. As I talk about, I'm the family friend that came in at the 11th hour. I usually take the last two weeks of December off. And I was like, great, this is going to be a chapter in my book. I did not think that. But what happened was Lauren was, you know, she. She reminded me a lot of myself. She had done all the things and, you know, it was just kind of a break that didn't. Didn't work out. Honestly, like, let's go to the end. She actually got in and went to the school and she graduated from there. So, like, crazy story. But at the time it worked out,
- [33:17]
B
you still had to do all the work. I mean, you still had to do all the work because she didn't know that at the time.
- [33:21]
A
Exactly. So what we did when we did this is. I. First of all, I just had our first time together. I just let her vent because there's always the venting that needs to happen as the processing of, like, you know, but this person got it or whatever. Vent, vent away. And then I said, well, let's come up with a plan and let's. Let's break it down into priority buckets. So we didn't say, oh, you need to do nine applications at once. Let's focus on the first three together. And let's. Let's break this down into really minute tasks. And then also create time blocks and then also create time blocks where you're just going to go outside or relax. She lived in New York City, so it was cold, but I made her walk around the block because I was like, it's fresh air is good for you. So the key idea was to take out of, like, overwhelm and to keep it into very manageable tasks. That also took it out of the emotion of, like, oh, my gosh, I have so much to do. And we do three tasks with three schools at a time. So when you're in a situation like that, which I hope nobody is, because you should do the applications before, regardless of whether you get. You're applying early decision. But you want to break it down into, like, a very man. And with that, you. I mean, as you know, you. You all are experts in this.
- [34:37]
C
You.
- [34:37]
A
You want to Sit with the student and figure out who's in front of you, like what, what makes it manageable for this person. So they're like, the goal is at the end of the conversation they say, oh yeah, this doesn't seem bad at all. I'm like, okay, then we're at a good place. And then sometimes body doubling really helps. So that's an ADHD term. But sometimes parents are a trusted adult just sitting next to them, working on their own work. Maybe Sunday afternoon is college application time. So they have a devoted time that they say each week that either they're working on applications or they're just talking about the process. And then what I tell parents sometimes is this is kind of off track, but, but related. There's, there are the parents that are kind of run anxious and so they always have questions about college. I was like, start a Google Doc. Write all your questions during the week on that Google Doc and then you get to talk, talk with that, your child once a week and address all the questions. Because by Sunday five of those are going to go away and no longer relevant. But you would have started a college conversation. That's unnecessary.
- [35:39]
B
Do they, do you tell them to do that for you as well?
- [35:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, yes, typically it depends on the situation. But you know, my whole goal is that they don't. For them too. That this doesn't become.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah, it can become all consuming.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, the all consuming. I mean, I have people that I know in higher ed to talk to me about this who say I have never, until my friends were applying, kids were applying to college. I have never understood the all encompassing nature of this for some people. Yeah. And, and I, again, I have empathy around it and I want to keep everybody, you know, feeling okay throughout the process.
- [36:13]
B
No, it is, it is stressful and even like for graduate school, my, my youngest daughter is, you know, she's deciding, I mean she, she decided, but she, but like just the decision of like which school to go to and all, you know, and then it gets more complicated when there's other factors that go into it when you're, you know, when you're a little bit older. So.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [36:32]
C
I think, Lisa.
- [36:33]
B
Yeah.
- [36:34]
C
We should adopt the, the Google Doc rule.
- [36:37]
B
That's right. We can have parents put all of their questions down on the Google Doc. That's actually a good idea. Actually one of our students suggested that we should have that like an ongoing Google Doc so that, you know, in between meetings they could just put all of their questions down because they might forget it and then that way we can.
- [36:52]
A
That's a good idea.
- [36:53]
C
Yeah.
- [36:53]
B
Yeah, we'll have to put that in. I think that's a great idea.
- [36:57]
C
The constant texting.
- [36:59]
A
Oh yeah. So I have all these systems in place that you probably wouldn't. Wouldn't I. We don't do texting at our office.
- [37:05]
B
Like, I don't do texting either.
- [37:07]
A
Yeah. Because I don't want a 24 7.
- [37:11]
B
Same for the kid too.
- [37:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. So we, we have like and every. It benefits everybody. But yeah, the Google Doc has been really helpful for also reducing anxiety because once it's out of your head paper, you're like, I haven't. I'm not gonna forget about that.
- [37:26]
B
Yeah, no, that's true. Exactly. And then you just can sleep and do all those other things.
- [37:31]
A
Yeah.
- [37:31]
C
So conversely, going back to Lauren. So conversely, on the flip side, there's Andrew who you write about the student. He's built those routine routines so early. Like 15 years later, he's still using. Right. A version of your weekend study schedule as a strategy consultant, which is insanely impressive to me. So what did high school Andrew actually do that paid off so far down the road? He used the blank piece of. Of paper to write down what he wanted to accomplish. How has this changed now that everything is electronic and AI is so prevalent and this new world that, that we have to embrace.
- [38:08]
A
That's a really great question because it's something we deal with at our office every day because so many students, everything they have is online and yet not a lot of the online. I mean, some of the online tools are helpful, but then some of them just create more distractions for the students. So it's really a matter of figuring out what works well for each child in front of us and each adult. And there are plenty of adults that are tech CEOs that use pen and paper to do their to do lists. And some of the very biggest ones that all talk about productivity, they're like, I come up with my three, three key ideas and I write them down for the day. So the key for me is really understanding what works for each child. Now Andrew, back to your question. Was the over scheduled procrastinator? I was thinking about this when I read your question. He in high school had so many activities that he was just busy. He was like, you know, he was captain of this president of this very social. In a positive way. Like everybody knew who he was and he was a really lovely young person. He's now in his mid-30s. He lives with somebody that he knew since sixth grade. His, you know, friend group is just still. It's like people joined along the way, whether they joined in college or high school or whatever.
- [39:25]
B
Piper, it kind of brought people along.
- [39:27]
A
Yeah, but he just is one of those people. But back to his, his situation, it actually was that he needed to take all the distractions out. So he's also the kind of person that he'll, he'll go into his company and sign out a conference room and just like get work done. Fully focused, fully quiet. Everybody works differently. Like I know people that need to be in a coffee shop or some, somewhere with ambient noise. So part of it is really figuring out what worked for him. But I will say there's two things to think about. Now that everything is electronic and AI is so prevalent that people are going back to basics. And it isn't just an either or, it's what works for you. And so, so some of my students, my college students specifically, have gone back to using a written planner. They find that it's a good catch all for writing their to dos and all of their other things. And then they'll keep a Google calendar for their appointments and then put the most important things down. It's all about figuring out a system. And one of the key things I say is can you find, from an organizational standpoint, can you find any document, physical or digital, that you need in under a minute? So do you have a system that makes it that easy to do that? And that is one way of thinking about it. And then when you think about your planning also, like, is it working for you? That it is a good catch all. So again, it's become a lot more individualized than when I started 20 years ago, even 15 years ago. So it's one of those things that we're constantly refining. And I, I try and use all the new tools that come out to try them out and see what it would feel like for middle school or high school kids and you know, figure out how can we help each student figure out a system that works for them.
- [41:12]
C
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Before I did this, I used to be an English teacher. And right. There's prescribed ways of writing. And at a certain point, and I was like, maybe this is creating more work for myself. I was like, do whatever works for you. Like, I was like, don't write the outline if the outline doesn't work or do the brainstorm or do this. And you know, Lisa and I, and our, and our other colleague Abby, who's not here, I think we all do that. We do what works for you. But it's. Right. It's hard that it takes us some time to get to that place where it has to be individualized because it doesn't work any other way for us to be at our best. So it took me a while to get there.
- [41:52]
A
Yeah. And it's also about getting students buy in. Like, if small shift makes it so the kids like, okay, this is going to totally work for me versus I'm not even going to try it then, then that makes all the difference in the world for us. And so that's where. Yeah. The personalization. And there's a lot more options available today.
- [42:09]
B
Do you have like a simple. If you were going to tell someone to start or they're like, it's like a simple version of a weekly system that a high school student could start with this week, for example, or.
- [42:20]
A
Yeah. The first thing, there's a couple things that I always say when people want to start around executive functioning and organization. The first is really organizing your stuff. So we start with going through everybody's pieces of paper in their backpack or on their, you know, iPad or their home screen or their Chromebook and figuring out a system that works for them so that either putting things in folders online again, the goal is that you're able to find any document, physical or digital, in under a minute. And then the second thing is really figuring out your planning system. Where do you write down your TO dos? And the biggest piece I say there is not thinking that the online system that your school gives the lms, the learning management system, is your like homework. Right. Like, that's the backup.
- [43:07]
B
That's so true because I'll be like, oh, I didn't see it there or I didn't know where it was or they. There's definitely something for you taking the control yourself and knowing where everything is.
- [43:18]
C
Right.
- [43:18]
A
And also not just your assignments or your tests, but also you have a dentist appointment or you have piano practice or you have a sport or an activity capturing all of that. So then you can start to think about where are you able to do your work so that you're getting to bed at a decent hour and you're getting enough sleep. So the second thing is the planner. So what is your planning system? I prefer written planner, especially when someone's starting. But I also know that might not work for everyone. So some people will use blocks in their calendar and then figure out what they're doing there. Other people will find that really overwhelming because they're like, oh, My gosh, there's so many blocks. There's so much to do. So figuring out what works for you is important. And then the third thing is really managing distractions so that you're able to start and complete tasks. And by that I mean, you know, our goal for every child is that they monotask so they've, they're focused on one task at a time. That's really hard in a world where Most people have 80 tabs open on their computer. So I also come from a place of what can we get you to do start? I mean, Pomodoro method says 25 minutes on with a five minute break, which I love. I would say that a lot of high school students can't make it to 25 minutes when they start, or middle school students. So I'm like 15, 15 and then 20 and then 25. So really helping students also create barriers where they can or like create navigation points where they feel like they can succeed. Because if you told someone to go run 10 miles the first day running, so organizing your stuff, figuring out your planner and to do list, and then really how do you manage distractions and where do you get your work done? And so the number one thing I say is most people's room is probably their most distracting place to get work done. So if they have a local library, a school library, a dining room table, a kitchen table, finding that place with headphones, maybe if they have siblings or other distractions. But, but also figuring out, do you need silence, do you need ambient noise? I mean, these are good questions that, that's how I would start. Like that first week.
- [45:19]
B
Do you ever get pushback from students or parents that they're like, oh, we can't, we can't do it, we've got too much going on, or he's so busy or that sort of stuff?
- [45:28]
A
Well, usually if they find their way to my office, there's a reason, right?
- [45:31]
B
There's a reason. Yeah.
- [45:32]
A
Right. So typically they're looking for help. Kids love coming to our office. That is the one thing that most people that are new staff members or even parents sitting on the waiting list, they're like, the kids are happy to be here because we make it all about them. We're trying to find you an extra 7 to 10 hours of free time per week. This is all about you. The pushback sometimes we'll get is if a student says, I have a system. And then my question is, how well is it working for you? If it's working great, but if it's not let's talk about it. And then from parents, you know, and not as much anymore. I really think there's a lot, been a lot of education around executive functioning and it's important. We're certainly not where I'd like to be nationwide on, on this issue, but, but that's another story. But I do feel like parents in my early days, and this is how early it was. It's like I was on the soccer field for my nephew and my former client, who's now a grandparent, whose kids on my nephew's soccer team was in the stand. And I'll remember that he said that dad said to me, because I remember this all these years later, but he said, we really don't care about the binders. He needs to get an A in chemistry. And I was like, I guess that. But we also need to like be able to have a system. And like I'm, I'm giving you the foundation for this to work. And I remember that because I don't get a lot of that pushback anymore because people see foundationally this is so key and they, the parents have become more educated. But I do remember that occasionally in the beginning for sure, I'd be like, they're like, how, how far away are we from the A? And I'm like, that's not.
- [47:03]
B
No, focus on the process, focus on the habits.
- [47:07]
A
Right?
- [47:07]
B
Yeah.
- [47:08]
A
If you focus on the habits, the, the grades. What I like to say.
- [47:11]
B
Exactly.
- [47:12]
C
Yeah.
- [47:13]
A
Gosh.
- [47:13]
C
So if a parent, hi parents. Listens to this episode tonight and wants to do one thing differently tomorrow. And then a student, hi students, I hope you're listening too. And they want to try one thing different this week. What would you tell each of them? What would you tell the parent and what would you tell the student?
- [47:32]
A
That's a great question that. I love it because it's all about creating simple steps. And the first thing that a parent can do is create a weekly regroup time in their house. Like on a Sunday afternoon where they set aside time where everyone comes and they bring their purse, their bag, their computer and like for 30 minutes people clean out their files, set up their week, write down all their to dos, map out their week and then also talk about it, right? Like I have a soccer game on Wednesday that's 45 minutes away, but then I have two tests on Thursday. Like just have them talk about it in a non threatening, like just a low key way because once you start talking about it, you start to come up with solutions. So I think parents, when they create that safe space and time. Because they often say, oh, but my kids can do that on their own. No they're not. Like even the well intentioned kid is not going to do it. And I always say to my people, I'm like, look, I would love to tell you that I do Pilates exercises on my own, but I go to a class.
- [48:32]
B
Exactly. I'm not doing it on my own.
- [48:33]
A
I do those exercises. So same thing, create that structure. And then for kids there's two things. One, I would say set a timer for 20 minutes, go through your backpack, go through and clean things out. That's one. But two, make sure you're getting enough sleep and rest. So it's not just the sleep that's really important, which is very important, but also that you're resting so that you have time, even 10 minutes, you turn off your phone, you just have, you know, sit there and just draw or listen to music for just even 10 minutes a day. It really does change your mind frame. And given our world where I feel like so many kids feel like they're going from one thing to another from 7, 6am or 7am to 8pm you asked about what pushback I get. The biggest thing I say sometimes to parents is like, I can't create more hours in the day. Your kids playing two club sports and doing all aps. Like there's not a world in which getting more organized is going to allow them to get more sleep. It's just not going to happen. So other things have to shift. So I'm really realistic with that kind of stuff.
- [49:39]
B
And I think that's such a good point because when I speak, you know, you'll go through, we'll go through with students and we'll map out like all the things that they're doing and we'll ask them, you know, questions, trying to figure out like, well, what do you like, what are the things you really enjoy? What are the things where you add value or you're creating value for other people. Like that's how you want to think about the things that you're doing rather than just ticking off boxes. And sometimes parents say, well what else can they do? And sometimes I'll just look at a kid's schedule. I say, well, I don't see any other time in your, in your week for you to do anything else. So it's really more a matter of paring back and being more intentional about the things that you are doing and that you really enjoy or you're creating value for yourself, for others than Adding more things. Right. And I think that's a really good point that you bring up. Sleep is super important. And also that mindfulness, like having that time to just take your, you know, not think about anything or just let your creativity run wild at that. What do you think are some myths or truths? We always like to ask that about executive function or just about teens today.
- [50:41]
A
I think one of the biggest myths is that executive functioning skills are just needed for students with adhd. Like, executive functioning support is like an ADHD issue. It's not. We all need them. You know, one of the things as I get older, I'm also realizing is, you know, we're working so hard to get teenagers their executive functions, and then as adults, we need to maintain them as we get older. This is true.
- [51:02]
B
This is very true. Yes.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah. It's real. And so in our emotional regulation, I think one of the biggest myths is that also executive functioning is really just focused on academics. And one of the biggest things I want people to understand is that this is very key for connecting. And we know that we have a loneliness epidemic. We know all the research around this. And being able to connect with others, especially across differences, is another thing that's really important for kids going away to college, especially if they've been in a community where they've been with the same kids for. For 8, 10 years, 12 years, that they now have to be in a new community where they may need to introduce themselves or make new friends or what does that look like? And how does executive functioning. So you're working memory, remembering things about people, remembering details, but also your emotional regulation. How do you react when somebody cancels on you last minute or something doesn't go as planned? How do you express how you're feeling without, you know, going into a situation where it could impact your ability to make and maintain friendships? I think that is one of the key pieces that we overlook, that we are worried about kids being able to connect with others and have authentic connections, and we don't necessarily realize that our executive functions are a key part of that.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And you even bring it up in the book about how it's so important to have students across boundaries and perspectives and really socioeconomic. Across socioeconomic barriers as well, that it's important to have those interactions. And colleges, those are questions that are specifically asked now by colleges when you've had experiences doing that.
- [52:38]
A
One of the biggest things I saw going back. I just went back for my 25th reunion, and there were people that really could connect with anyone in the room across differences. And then there were people that really just came back to see the six people they still in touch with. And I do have to say, like, as somebody who really has a lot of people that I know from a lot of different backgrounds and very comfortable speaking with, I felt like my experience is that much richer because of that. Because I just feel like I can walk into a room, I'm very comfortable, and I'm genuinely curious. I don't have. And that just makes things more fun, especially as you get older and everyone has something really interesting to say. And I think creating that expanded perspective is important and connection.
- [53:22]
B
No, I think that's really true. I was with a classmate of mine from business school, and he said he ran into another classmate who was in my section. And I was like, oh, I didn't even realize because we weren't in the same section. I was like, I didn't realize you were friends. He said, you know what? I just like to talk to different people. And, you know, he actually was doing all this genealogy, and he had this whole, like, history about his family, and. And it was just super interesting. So I was like, yeah, you're right. I mean, you could always find interesting things. And that's what. That's what we love about this work, is that you get to meet with so many different people with different backgrounds and really understand so much about their culture and what's interesting to them and what's motivating to them and how they see the world. So it's really cool thing. Yeah, that's good. Well, so last one. Where can listeners find your book? It's coming out June 9th, right? Yeah, so it'll. It'll have come out already by the time this gets out there. So are there any. How could they find your book, your work, any tools or worksheets that you'll make available for families navigating the season?
- [54:18]
A
Sure. Well, they can Visit my website, anahomayoon.com or green IVed.com there's worksheets and resources in both places around executive functioning and organizing, planning, prioritizing. That's the bulk of what we do. And yeah, getting in is not enough. The new blueprint for success beyond grades, test scores, and college admission. Really is this, in many ways, a love letter to 25 years of doing this work and working with students around the world. So sharing their stories of students who are now in their early 30s is also hopefully calming and reassuring for that parent who is really worried. I mean, I had a number of of friends who've read, you know, the book and said I'm really glad I read this when my kid was younger and I didn't realize at the time like they have like an 8, 10, 12 year old because it gave them things to think about and reframing before they get to the college admissions process. And so that's really, really helpful. But yeah, visit our website. There's lots of and there's going to be there's a reader's guide that's free on there to help serve that conversation with with with parents and kids. Great.
- [55:26]
B
And we'll definitely have links to it also on our podcast. So thank you CBMers for tuning in. Thank you Anna for being such an insightful and informative conversationalist. To catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. To learn more, visit collegeboundmentor.com until next time. You got this Sam.