Lisa (4:40)

So when a parent calls you up, you have a rising ninth grader, because that's where I'm getting it from, what would you say, say to them like, how would you get somebody either a parent who's trying to identify that for their kid, which obviously it's got to be driven by the kid, not by the parent. How do you get that out of them? And also, do you think it's too much pressure for a 14 or 15 year old? Because that's, that's who I'm getting the calls from right now. Feel like they have to have this passion project. They don't necessarily have a passion yet.

Dr. Liz Kreider (5:08)

Yeah, it's a tall order to put on a young person. And it's a strategy that parents see as valuable because, you know, if you look at the top 5% of students admitted to any institution, it's because they have something that they did that was at least 90 days, but they had some part in determining it. And Then they accomplished it in part or in whole, and then they can talk about it. So doesn't matter if it's highly rejective or completely, everyone's accepted. Generally there's something that that student can talk about. So back to your question about the ninth grader and the parent who's like, my child needs a passion project. So that's great that the parent is aware, they're problem aware of this being a differentiator. The problem then escalates in a different direction, and that is the pressure. And all of us, you know, parents, people who work with young people, they want to have this experience for their. Their young person is like something that they can call their own. And so what I do is I begin with where the student is right there. And before I even get to that point, I have the conversation with the parent because I've done it in the sense of if the student's listening to me interact with the parent and we're talking strategy and what the market is rewarding, little by little, the student just feels defective because all they can hear is, well, I don't have that. And then it's like, honey, I want to help you develop your passion. And so they're all good things. It's just the timing of the conversation. So I have a conversation with the parent first and say, here's the situation. And so if you want to facilitate this growth that would lead to a story that then the independent education consultant can help them tell, then that's great. But more importantly is that the student does something that they're proud of, that we don't just aspire to something. And so I begin with where the student is right now. They don't have to have a passion figured out, especially for a ninth grader. The only exception is if they've already decided they want to be in health care, they want to be a physician. And so that evidence is very defined in terms of, I'm interested in medicine, so I'm going to do X, Y and Z. And so then they are on board for that. But there's so much growth that happens before that 9th grader even comes to me that they have said, I've got my heart set on this. So that's fairly straightforward. Others, it's very much a blank slate. You know, the dad wants a return on the investment of time and resources and the mom wants the purpose development. And then the students there going, okay, how do I fit this in? And that's why I refer to the Netflix budget, is that we're Going to take that out of your Netflix budget. And we're also going to find something that that kind of breaks your heart and that you're willing to sacrifice for. Now, not everybody's oriented on, well, yeah, that breaks my heart. And some have never even thought about that. So then I begin with, well, how do you spend your time? And then invoke, in a few years you're going to have the chance to tell your story, but only in two dimensions on paper. And so if you have a three dimensional story that you're trying to distill onto paper, colleges or employers have a much better sense of your character and your curiosity. If you want them to know more about you, you kind of have to do this. And so it's an experience that most people would want for their children. It's just there is a deadline if they want that experience in time to share with other people.

Abby (8:54)

That makes so much sense. I love how you say it's something that they're willing to sacrifice time for. I think that would really resonate with kids versus the idea of finding your passion at age 14 or 15. But is there something that you are willing to sacrifice your Netflix or your video games for? I think that's a really effective way to communicate that. So if you, once you identify a client who is primed for a passion project or a project, we'll call it a project. So you said some of them might be nebulous and you need to hone in on what they might do. Some kids might have more of an idea. Can you just walk us through a little bit more of your process to get them to what they're going to do?

Dr. Liz Kreider (9:38)

Yes. So I have kind of the manual process that used to take me on the shortest time three weeks and then now it can take me 30 minutes with a student. And so I've created a GPT wrapper. So I've kind of infused my voice into a brainstorming tool and I do it with the student. And so I'll say, well, okay, what are you interested? What do you spend your time on? Okay. And then it's a little harder for them to say what breaks my heart because that involves some reflection. And so that might say they understand. Okay, I'm interested in roller coasters. There's not a heartbreak there. There's like a curiosity gap. I'm really interested in that. Okay, so I go through a process with the student to identify okay with the roller coaster idea. That's a knowledge gap that they want to fill. And so then we Work on filling that. Say, okay, well, what does it take to design roller coasters? And then we explore the software. And this is all embedded in my process with them. And we do it live together so that they have this kind of clarity. And aha, after, say, 30 minutes. Because the younger, the student, they need that kind of payoff that this is going somewhere. Like, who's this lady I'm working with? My mom wants me to work with her. The payoff's a little sooner. So I use that with younger students, older students, and give them homework. And it does take two to three weeks of, like, what is it that you care about? And if you had a magic wand and you could wave it and make a change in the next 90 days, either in your zip code or in your online community, what would that be? So it gives them time to reflect on that. Then we break it down. So the change you want to make and then what's really the issue? And they've never been asked to separate the issue and the population affected. So then once we separate the issue and then the population affected, that's on their radar. Then we think, well, what's currently being done about that? And then let's just see how those fall short. Or they do great. Well, okay, this one's doing great. But is it in your zip code? No, it's not in my zip code. I like that idea. So, well, why don't we bring it to your zip code? That way they're doing something new that's new for them, but they're doing best practices from somewhere else. And then other times, that process then will lead them to, say, maybe a partner organization. And that way they can amplify their impact and really bite off something that could be digested and lead to something in 90 days. The. So an example is like, teen mental health, you know, that's a very long process to have an impact on that. It's like, okay, what are some of the things that teen mental health impact? Like the middle school girl? Let's understand that population. Well, one of the things they struggle with is finding their voice. Oh, you have a background in speech and debate. Okay, and when you found your voice, what was that like? And who helped you do that? And then that would lead to, okay, where this hits the ground is putting mentors and gathering middle school girls so that they can practice persuading their parents of getting a dog. Right? Something like that. Where they practice this persuasion pathway. They start to find their voice in a comfortable setting. You do that enough times, and then Find a way for them to speak. That young person now has addressed in a small scope in 90 days how to improve the mental health of that population because she empowered them, how to improve their speaking abilities. So now it doesn't solve teen mental health on a grand scale, but then that student can progress. That student in this case is a real life example. She then got certified in teen mental health first aid. And then she also picked one topic that really causes so much anxiety for young people and that was procrastination. And I helped her unpack the literature on that and then helped her create a TED talk that then she could reach people, her peers on procrastination because it has a direct effect on teen mental health. So that's if I have a student from 9th grade and beyond and they're in a place and they have the Netflix budget to build upon it. So there are lots of different directions to go. But hopefully that answers your question.

Lisa (14:11)

It does. Abby wants to has a follow up question but I actually wanted to ask about that because the another question that, that students will say as well, I want to like scale it and I want it to be like, you know, solve all of mental health. And we all will say, listen, it's about impact. It's about how you make an impact. If it's on one person, it could be on many people, it could be on within your community. And so there's this misconception that you have to make this global impact or national impact. And are you finding that that's not necessarily the case? Is that one of the myths about this impact for getting into the highly rejective universities or the highly select universities?

Dr. Liz Kreider (15:01)

I think that conversation, when it gets to that point, if that's early, saying they have big ideas, they're dreaming big. And I said, okay, I love the dreaming big. So let's affect the people in your zip code first and see what that feels like. Because you've got to learn where that rubber hits the road and what is actually the inflection point for getting the outcome that you want. So again it's my experimental background of like we need to observe that you were there and you did this thing and then here's what happened. And if we can quantify how many people heard your message, how many people came to the workshop, how many people participate in this, then we have a greater sense of if that message, that thing you're doing is landing, then you do it again. What we're going to feed back into it. We're going to iterate and say wow, wasn't that amazing? You had that impact. Okay. If you want to scale, you see just how much manual labor there is here. And so that means you got to do it again and again and again. And so most of the time I don't have a student where we have progressed through all of these developmental phases. But then we're at like let's iterate the third or fourth time. If they come in with dream big then then I'll create a way for it to scale. But the fastest way to scale is through partner organizations and finding other people. At some point though, there are students that get lucky. There's a student I've just started to work with that he created a dance competition for college students worldwide. And he's in 10th grade and he has a mentor and there are three or four and he's like running the tech for these dance competitions. And he's also trying to grow it. And had this massive response for a number of campuses. And they all met in Las Vegas. And his mom saying I, well, our consultant says he needs a passion project. Like well, he's got one and we're not going to go do some research. Because she felt like, oh, I heard that there has to be research. I said, you know what, he's just in this amazing situation where he can scale his impact. He's done it by accident. And so he doesn't need a passion project. He is the passion project because A he's willing to sacrifice, B it is not a vacation, C he's gotten all kinds of buy in from people and now he's creating something. So then we run into the problem that they love the project more than school. Yeah. And so that that becomes a problem. I saw that with two of my three children that they found school unsatisfied in spite of having like all the rigor that our high school has to offer. They just found that they were a much better experiential learner and they're spending 20 hours a week in our garage and they're doing robotics and that becomes their teacher. So that's where you're like, no, you got to stay in school. They realize they'll get to a different level.

Abby (18:06)

One thing I just want to say in support of everything you just said is I was just at our annual IECA Independent Education Consultant conference in Detroit and language that I heard dozens of admissions reps say at all different levels of selectivity that I had not heard before because they always talk about making an impact and caring about your community and being kind but something I heard this year for the first time, even though they've probably been thinking, is identifying the needs in your community. You know, that was very commonly said. We are looking for kids who understand the needs of their community members, which I think is a really, again, effective way of explaining something to a kid versus making global impact. You know, it's more important to know your neighbors and understand what can help them. So just a really quick follow up. You had brought up a couple of great projects. Any others, any other fun or super interesting or super impactful projects that you can share with us?

Dr. Liz Kreider (19:09)

Quickly, I have a student, Samantha, who had applied for the Dragon Kim Foundation Fellowship, which is a nonprofit that awards up to $5,000 for community impact projects based in Southern California. Students in California, Nevada and Arizona can apply. When she applied, you have to submit a one minute video. And she was terrified. Now she wanted to increase rates of adoptions of dogs because it really broke her heart that they had to be euthanized. And it was very difficult to get her to articulate why she wanted to do this, even though like her heart's broken over it. And so she didn't get the fellowship. But it was a good process to go through. And I said, well, I think you need some experience and you're going to feel better if you can actually go contribute. So she started volunteering at the local shelter that LA county, one of the LA county shelters, put in almost 100 hours and then was able to move up in the volunteer hierarchy to be an animal handler. And then by the end of this process, I can't say that it was fun for her, but she certainly sacrificed and looked, looking back, it's tremendously fun to think that she did it. She spoke to 700 students at her school. A 20 minute TED style talk about her journey that just was a showcase of the character development of something in her zip code. And to be able to do that in front of your high school classmates from somebody who could barely articulate one minute.

Lisa (20:47)

I watched it.

Dr. Liz Kreider (20:48)

Yeah. Did you watch it? Yeah, I did watch it.

Lisa (20:50)

It was great. It was great to see how she did it. And she had the video showing how she made dogs that were, that were from a shelter, that were skittish or that were scared and how she worked with them. And then she, she marketed them. So she like took them out of the play, out of their kennels and she played with them so that it made them more adoptable because people would see that they actually could interact with, with humans well and they weren't going to be scared. So she did a really good job with the video. So it made me want to adopt a dog. But not going to right now.

Dr. Liz Kreider (21:21)

Yeah. To, to your point, Abby and I was at the same meeting, which I thought was a fabulous exchange of ideas. Is it is an obvious step, but for some students, they get really excited about, oh, I'm going to go outside the country and deliver relief supplies. And somehow they're kind of anonymous in doing that. But then if they were to go knocking door to door for donations in their zip code, they're terrified that someone they know is going to answer the door. Our goal, even though the thing they're doing is a good thing. And so their comfort zones are the kind of rate determining step on this. I mean I know that's the understatement of the year about a teenager, but as mentors we can help them see this might be happening elsewhere in your county. And this is real. If you drive 20 minutes this direction, it looks very different than your community. What's that like? And really empathize. And that's step one of Stanford design thinking is to empathize. And so that's what informs my process. But I do think that helping in your zip code or at least in your county makes it more real for them than necessarily I'm going to go out of the country and I'm going to like rally and get all this stuff. Well, you know, it's needed here too.

Abby (22:46)

Yeah, I say that to my clients a lot. You know, you don't have to start something new. There are a lot of people who already need help find them.

Dr. Liz Kreider (22:54)

Yeah.

Stephanie (22:55)

I'm really curious. When someone comes and reaches out to you, is it driven by the parent? Is it driven by the student?

Dr. Liz Kreider (23:03)

Student.

Stephanie (23:03)

Does that have an impact when you start meeting with the student and they just don't seem passionate about anything like outside of sports or outside of, you know, hanging out with friends or outside of like being on, I don't know, social media and taking a deep dive into like what TikTok that day. So yeah, I'm just curious how, how you navigate that.

Dr. Liz Kreider (23:25)

99% of the time is the parent saying, I want this experience for my child and I also want kind of a receipt for that. They did this thing much like the conversations you have with young people about finishing the Eagle project or doing the gold award or Congressional Service award or Presidential Service award is it's a receipt for you having done something for a sustained period of time. But there's a lot of infrastructure with Those things you can plug in and there's just all these people with their arms around you. So when a parent comes to me and says, I want this, it's generally because the young man either does not have a defined interest and yet they see their son capable of that, or they're trying to steal away time spent gaming. And so they want it done because they see, oh, well, that was 40 hours on this. Imagine if we did eight on helping make the world a better place. And so because of that, it ends up being those kind of triangulation, not a strangulation, but triangulation of mom and dad want this for you in future, you will be grateful. Now for, for young women, they, they tend to catch on earlier. And in that, you know, it's. It's kind of silly to say, but in some ways it's true that like girls want to save the animals and boys want nunchuck skills. And that kind of plays out is that for young men, they've got to feel like a sense of I'm awesome. And so it's very skills oriented with that discretionary time. And for girls and young women, it's about impact. So it's a little easier for them once we've uncovered generally where they want to go and who they want to help. And so it starts with the parent. The times where I have a young person contact me is because they want research experience and I run a summer research program and they realize that I need research or I want to do this, and so then they'll initiate it. And then the parent is the second person to find out about the possibilities with me.

Lisa (25:31)

Well, tell us about the research. Like, how can teens listening right now identify opportunities to do research? And we've had numerous kids that reach out to professors or universities and actually with pretty good success when they actually go through and reach out. But many kids are reluctant to do that. So how do you help them overcome that initial fear?

Dr. Liz Kreider (25:50)

Certainly it depends on where the idea came from in the first place. If it comes from a trusted mentor like yourselves, then they realize, okay, this is a way for me to get experience and show that I'm curious about it. Again, it goes also back to that comfort zone is, is that young people now are much more comfortable emailing or texting or ordering pizza from an app rather than calling the pizza shop saying, I would like a large.

Lisa (26:18)

The worst thing to do is to have to call somebody on the phone.

Dr. Liz Kreider (26:20)

Yeah, the worst thing to do. So when you say you're going to contact or cold call if they can have the same email sent out. The problem is everyone is doing that. And a Stanford professor, I'm familiar with his work. He told a common friend, I get about 10 emails a week from bright high school students wanting to work for me. And from my perspective as a research mentor, the student has to have some interest and some skills because the professor has responsibilities to the university, to their postdocs and grad students and undergrads. It's a favor. It's their own community service to take on a high school student. And so how high school students can then go down that path and find someone receptive is to show evidence of effort. And I can give you my email script if you want to use that as a supplement to what you already encourage your students to do. You can go shopping within a university and upfront, do the exploration of what that science is and what they're doing. But with, say, a tool that Google's produced, a notebook, LM the science can then be distilled in a digestible way. And say, a student finds papers from that professor's site, uploads them, and hits audio, create an audio podcast. You'll have this conversation that then creates fluency based on a very technical paper that then helps the student say, huh, yeah, I really dig that problem. Okay, I think I can now generate a vocab sheet from these two publications. Only takes one or two. And then. Oh, okay, I'm not sure I understand that concept. So can you give me some analogies? Oh, that's like this. Okay, now I'm going to go back to the abstract or even just the introduction and see if I can get through one paragraph and then email the professor and saying, I've engaged with your material. And this is my reaction. I've also looked at some of these experiments. I really want to do them. Is there a way I can help? So not every student's in a position a, to spend the time to do the deep shopping that shows evidence of effort, not every student. And so matching, you know, some of these paid situations where they immediately match you with a grad student that reduces that problem. But then you're with somebody who's been at it maybe eight years, not a professor that can really work with the young person. Not that they would be spending that much time with the young person, but they understand the context for that young person. So those programs are good, immediately matching. But the mentorship in my perspective and my experience is very uneven. It's very hit or miss. And so with that, you have to Follow up on what the student's actually getting. For those who are wanting to interact with faculty, you can also engage with their material on YouTube. If they've given a lecture for the public, then just being persistent, but not annoying because they can't possibly respond.

Lisa (29:31)

Well, that's the fine line, right?

Dr. Liz Kreider (29:32)

Between, like, that's the fine line.

Lisa (29:35)

Was interested. I was with a professor on a. On a tour on. In religion, and not. Not that many young people are interested in looking at comparative religion. And I tried to put them together and he, you know, he emailed him, and then he wanted to email him again, and I said, well, give him a little bit of time, you know, because there's sort of that fine line between being persistent but not annoying. And what is that? What is that line between persistence and annoyance?

Dr. Liz Kreider (29:59)

Seven days.

Lisa (30:00)

Seven days.

Dr. Liz Kreider (30:01)

Okay, Seven days. Seven days. And so have that email. You know who I am. Engage with your stuff. You got to show that you. You invested something in that topic and that. That it's interesting to you. And. And then, you know, how can I contribute to your group? And then put the resume as a PDF, not the whole life story. Just like this is what engages me. And I've read your paper and put the links to the papers and. And then here are the questions that I have. And then ask a realistic question. Is there a graduate student or someone in your group that I can help? Here are the number of hours a week that I have, and here are the skills that I've done so far. And then that's much easier to say yes to. And then the ask. The email is, can I talk with you over Zoom for 15 minutes about contributing to your group? Can I come to group meeting? Because I'm really curious about this. But most often it's because of a personal connection. And so going back to Abby's question or your. Your insight about just this volume of the conversation about helping in your zip code and being familiar, you can do this without the infrastructure of the lab. And it's as follows. Is that, okay, I'm interested in bugs. You know, entomology, I'm interested in bugs. And then you find anyone in your neighborhood that might be a bug person, or maybe you find them online. Then you say, is there an association for bug people? Oh, there is. Okay, can I participate again? It's not even in person. It's online. Zoom. Find other people. I want to know more about bugs. Can you teach me? I've done this. Can you teach me? And then those conversations, because that's already sorted. The People in the bug association love bugs and they, oh, it's such a dopamine hit for a young person to say. Can I have your opinion about the latest bug research? Oh, they would just, you know, they can't stop talking about what they love about bugs. And it's an investment in that relationship. So I recommend the online community and the offline community, depending if you get lucky and your neighbor is a bug guy or. Or a bug lady, and then build from there. But again, involves a lot of manual labor that young people that just may not. You may miss this window. Lab work is very difficult to do at home. I have tried remote science fair projects. I loved doing them. But there's a reason why I funnel my students into in person in the summer where we can work side by side because it's very time consuming. But do you have a student in mind that we could workshop as a, you know, no professor is answering. I'm really interested in microbiology or biofuels or something. Do I. Any of you have a student we could workshop with?

Lisa (32:57)

Sure. So I have a student whom I'm actually going to be speaking with shortly who is very interested in comparative religion. So he is. And also how religion impacts public policy, kind of how looking at those two things together, that's really what his interest is, the intersection between religion and public policy. So how would somebody like. And he actually created. He wrote a code that could go through and look at professors, research at schools and his interests. And he was able to identify professors that were doing things that were interesting to him. And he did reach out to quite a number of them, and he did get a hit. But just curious, he's not sure what that's going to yield. He doesn't really know. He has sort of free reign to do what he wants with this, but he doesn't know how to make this something that's really impactful.

Dr. Liz Kreider (33:52)

Is he okay with manual labor?

Lisa (33:54)

Yes, he is.

Dr. Liz Kreider (33:56)

So based on what you've shared, he's set a good foundation for understanding what's available academically, especially since he's been able to scrape faculty members and the work that they're doing. And so he's already informing himself of the vocabulary, the framework, who's who in this space, and what kinds of questions. So even without being in a group meeting with the different faculty members, he's able to observe what kind of questions, what kinds of questions they're asking and like, what's a thing in this religion and public policy? After he improves his fluency, he can then Go locally and set a radius of 10 miles, 20 miles of the different faith communities in there and then be able to formulate some interview questions to go talk to the leaders of those churches and get some qualitative information about, well, what are your concerns about policies impacting your religious community, for example? If that's one of the academic questions on a broad base, get some on the ground insights because these are faith leaders that are grappling with how policy or tax code or public perception may impact their missions. So you couldn't come up with a more motivated audience to pay attention to policy and religion and so come up with five or six interview questions, message the person and say, I'm doing an independent project on this and this I'd like to get your opinion. Could we set aside some time? So the manual labor is getting in touch and getting yes from the faith leader and then imagine what he's going to learn from the conversations. He's going to improve his fluency and then he'll have his own data set that if he does get a hit from a faculty member, he can say, I've been in seven conversations with faith leaders in my county and when we talk about this, this is what they're saying. And so can you help me understand that in the context of what you're doing as an academic? Now again, that's very grown upy language. But the idea is to say you do this and you're thinking on it on a big level. And here's the on the ground experience. Is this a subset of what you see or are, you know, can you help me understand on the ground and high level? So if he's interested and capable of the manual labor part, the conversations, guess what he gets? He gets all this face time with adults. He gets all this face time practicing these simple questions. Once he gets the interview, he also gets to craft things so people will say yes to him. And if he shows the evidence of effort over here in the academic setting, and then he uses that with the pastors, the different faith leaders, they're more likely to recognize it and guaranteed he's the only one approaching them to get their opinion. So now you talk about Abby's point of connecting with your community. He's taken an academic inquiry and now he's grounded it with actual people.

Lisa (37:25)

Right? That's great. I love that.

Abby (37:27)

I just want to follow up with a sort of general one to see if you have any ideas. I will often get, and this is a little bit out of my league if I'm being Honest. I'll often get kids who are very advanced in math, so maybe they're taking, you know, multivariable or linear algebra in 10th or 11th grade kind of thing. So they've, they've exhausted. Now they're at the university, local university or community college, and they want to do something in terms of math research. And I've had in my time two kids get super lucky. One did this math circle at UCLA where he, I don't know, you know what, considered the world's math problems with PhD students and professors. I had no idea what he was talking about. And another one was also lucky in Massachusetts, got involved in this game theory club at a local university. But that's kind of tougher, I think, for, for me and I think for kids. Do you have any, have you had any general experience with math stuff?

Dr. Liz Kreider (38:26)

Generally, those are very few students who are at that, that level. And so how beautiful that you were able to prompt them to say it's possible to connect with a larger community. And as more people hear you say the word math circle, then maybe the parent of a seventh grader who's very strong in this area has been doing the AMC competitions. But then the concept of a math circle hasn't. So just us speaking about it is impactful that there's a small group, just like there's ftc, Robotics, you're interested in engineering, find it, drive to it, do it. Math circle is another thing, a venue art of problem solving. That curriculum also promotes these further enrichment. And then you have competitions. If we were to look at, say, finance adjacent to math, even, sorry, mathematicians, but I guess finance is applied math. The steepness of the curve there for a young person to contribute to research is so harsh that it's just unrealistic for a young person to be able to do finance work unless they had a pretty strong math and programming foundation. And so sometimes I have to explain to students, you can't just like call up a USC professor and say, I want to do finance research, because they have requirements that even undergrads don't always meet. And so I would say for, for the math prodigy like that, go ahead and do the circle. But there's also an opportunity for you to grow and show that you care about other people too, in addition to caring about developing yourself as a mathematician. So there's the feed the soul with the academic knowledge and having a community like a circle community that feeds the soul and the sense of belonging and desire for more. But you also want that opportunity for them to connect in person. With their zip code. And whether that's through tutoring or collaborating, like, append yourself to another project where you're creating something useful, because generally those don't go together. Somebody very advanced in math doesn't necessarily want to talk to strangers unless it has to do with math.

Abby (40:44)

Yeah, yeah. I did have a kid this year who was, you know, advanced in math, but not the most advanced in math. And he just started. He went to the University of Minnesota. He just went to the math department and asked if he could sit in on classes on the weekend.

Dr. Liz Kreider (40:56)

Yeah.

Abby (40:57)

And I was really impressed with that.

Dr. Liz Kreider (40:59)

Yeah. Just this week there's a student who has Perfect on the PSAT, perfect on the SAT, has only like Bs in Spanish and the rest of his courses are A's, maybe like a B in English. AP, AP Ling. But he's top 40 in the world when it comes to robotics. And so he wants to do Formula one teams in college. And so what's available to him he can, in terms of like, the zip code connection. If he wants to learn how to actually work on cars, he could go rebuild one himself. He can also look at the vocational training that SAE teams want at the college level. And so that would be welding, that would be how engines work. And so he has very portable knowledge from robotics. And then he's trying to port it over to cars. Why not start on that now? So the encouragement to him is to go to the auto body shops or the mechanics and say, I would really like to shadow. Can I be useful? And then that's very vocational training. That is not top 40 robotics team in the world. And so that requires a comfort zone willing to identify, oh, I can't get a job at O'Reilly because I'm not old enough, but could I go be helpful and useful and learn in an auto shop? Love that.

Abby (42:35)

Well, also, I mean, teaches humility and I mean, teaches a whole other sort of level of adulting that a lot of these kids don't have.

Lisa (42:46)

A client who was a mechanical engineer studying mechanical engineering, and he worked on a ranch that, like a. Out in Montana every. Every summer. And so he had to take apart all of the, you know, the tractors, and he learned all of the very vocational skills through doing that. And that's what really got him interested in mechanical engineering and just taking that all apart. So I think that was really good advice.

Dr. Liz Kreider (43:12)

I think if students can document their journey, most of them don't really think that it's worth documenting. And so if they're taking something apart Then, you know, they should take a picture of it or. Or reflect on it. And depending on the competition, they have to document what they're doing. But even working on the farm, it's like, you know, I want you to document this. Of course, that's like homework for them at a job that they may kind of push back on. But you say, you know, there's a cool story in here. I guarantee you, I don't know what the story is, but I need you to write down one sentence a week on a high and a low, or what surprised you, because then they can piece that back together again.

Stephanie (43:51)

And I think you're also reminding us community is this buzzword, but your most successful projects are all about the power of community, and it's right to reimagine community. Like, the body shop is a strong community. A job is community.

Dr. Liz Kreider (44:06)

The bug.

Abby (44:07)

I love that.

Stephanie (44:08)

Like, the bug Facebook group or, you know, online, like, it's. And I think it's really great to show students that community doesn't need to be this large, overwhelming thing. So I guess what value do these projects have to high school students beyond college admissions?

Dr. Liz Kreider (44:30)

Oh, I love that question, Stephanie. Because it's all about the journey, not necessarily the destination. And, you know, the typical solution or the typical mindset is, okay, I need this, this, and this for college. And there's so much energy invested in that. And those are all good things. I mean, we're telling and instructing, guiding, inspiring, leading for them to use their time in a constructive way so that they grow the. The real power in the project is the skills development and the identity development and the opportunity for satisfying that curiosity and showing evidence, hey, I like this. And then I acted on it, and they went below a surface level, understanding. And so it's up to us to help inspire the conditions for them and say, you know, it's worth it. Future Stephanie is going to be very grateful to current Stephanie, but also honor that. Not suggesting that they become adults overnight. We're suggesting that they develop skills that will help them advocate in the next situation. And so I like the project because it's the first time they're practicing uncertainty with something that they get to choose. So the only time they have uncertainty is, like, social situations which are terrifying, and then how am I going to perform in the class? But, like, true uncertainty of, like, I'm not sure this is going to work and how am I going to make it work so that, like, the magic wand produces some kind of result that benefits other people. That's where students Start to get comfortable with not knowing, and then they're more inclined to solve problems. And guess what? Colleges want to see resilience. They want to see character and curiosity. But the development of purpose for everyone is done through experimentation. If they're not experimenting through a project, they're not going to find out what really excites them, what they hate, what they're willing to sacrifice for. It's my hypothesis and it's what drives me to work with high school and college students is the project is that best teacher that can help them develop purpose, find out what they're excited about, what makes their heart beat faster, what they're willing to spend discretionary time on. And in the process of doing all these experiments, they'll realize, you know, I don't, I don't have to just be a follower. In fact, 10 years after they do these things, they realize, you know, the world doesn't need more followers. It needs people who are more willing to go outside their comfort zones to then experiment and try something that might just make the world a better place. And then they'll come to understand their larger role in the world. That's one experiment at a time. And so if it's for college admissions that you have that experience and you have something to tell the colleges and create that three dimensional profile, then go for it. But the larger purpose is understanding and cultivating that sense of purpose.

Stephanie (47:55)

Yeah, I love that. I feel like we just attended your TED talk.

Dr. Liz Kreider (47:59)

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So. So.

Stephanie (48:05)

So speaking of, I know that a lot of your students, you help them with TED talks and, and they do that. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about a few examples or successful TED talks and how that comes to be?

Dr. Liz Kreider (48:18)

Oh, sure. So I obviously had a ringing endorsement from Lisa's call out of Samantha's talk on increasing rates of adoption. You know, and that one was great. And I mentioned her transformation. I can't help myself because I love speaking. It enables me to reach more people. But this came about because of the need to translate science to people who hadn't immersed themselves in that project or in that PhD or in that part of the library. And so in order to help the public participate in sponsored research, those who can translate it well means people can participate and understand that effort, our taxpayer money spent on. And so I developed that kind of training to translate so that more people could appreciate where their taxpayer money goes. And in the process, really enjoyed the storytelling. And so I've just continued to level up and once you see something, you can't unsee it. And so for young people, it's, it's just so amazing to teach them how to translate their science. And so I, I've done it for about 85 students because it's very labor intensive to help them translate their science in a way that it almost feels like, oh, that's so obvious, of course you would do it that way. But the selection process of what to say and what not to say is tremendously difficult for a young person to do. It's difficult for adults to decide, if I had 12 minutes, how would I spend it and what am I assuming about my audience and where are they? So for the student, it's about, I want to convey my project, what I learned, and then inspire people to participate. For those beyond that, it's about understanding the needs of the audience and how my message may reach them and help them act differently, because now they think differently because of what I had to say. And so of the students that I've worked with in high school to help develop their communication skills, it's the number one thing they use in college. Not the pipetting, not the interpreting spectroscopy, not explaining high performance liquid chromatography. It's advocating when they're at a large school that's unfamiliar to them and having the confidence. And so they did the work with the project and I helped them find their voice to then share it. And so the swagger, the swagger is very different. And just like I said with Samantha, I wish we're still trying to find on her hard drive where that one minute video is to just show the difference between Samantha 1.0 in 10th grade to Samantha 2.0 in 12th grade. And no one can take that away from her.

Lisa (51:23)

Yeah, I mean, that's such an amazing gift that you give students. And I think it's very similar to what we see as well. You know, when students come in, if we start working with them in 9th or 10th grade, and as they start to develop their voice, start to be able to advocate and understand who they are and understand what does make them uniquely themselves and be able to communicate that in an effective way, that's really what will take them much further in life than, as you said, the pipettes or the single thing they did. It's not so much what you do, but it's how it impacted you and how it impacted others and how you're able to share that with the world. We always like to end with some myths and truths about the subject that we're talking about. So are there any myths or truths about passion projects or just projects in general that you'd like to share?

Dr. Liz Kreider (52:14)

Yes. Thank you for inviting that, because I wouldn't want any student listening to this to feel like, oh, I am so behind, because I can't possibly envision myself speaking to 700 students about my passion project, let alone figure out one. So it's all a journey and a continuum. So I'd say the number one myth that keeps students from hopping on that path is that they feel like they have to have it figured out. They have to have that passion defined at a time where it's like, is that even possible? Is it even possible to know that there's this thing I want to do for the foreseeable future and that it will help me get from A to B? And so the myth is like, I have to have it defined or I have to have it figured out?

Lisa (53:03)

And that's such good advice, because this one student I was talking about, you know, sometimes people have a lot of anxiety about, like, I have to have it all figured out. I have to know if I'm going to do this, is this going to actually be worth my time? Is it? And I say, well, you. You don't know that until you get started. And you don't necessarily know which direction it's going to go until you start to do the work and you start to talk to people, and then you start to pivot and move around. I mean, I'm an entrepreneur. I've always, always done things from, I guess, from the seat of my pants. So there's been a sense that I wanted to do something, and I kind of figured it out along the way. I didn't have all the answers, but I knew how to get asked the questions and get the answers. And so I think that idea that you've touched upon, this idea of uncertainty, is so uncomfortable for so many people and particularly for so many teens. So I love that, that you can just say, just get going and be comfortable with that uncertainty, because it will take you somewhere, even if it takes you to the point where you say, this is not my passion. I don't like this. But it'll help you find something, right?

Dr. Liz Kreider (54:10)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's why we try on clothes. We try on clothes in the dressing room and say, oh, this is so not flattering.

Lisa (54:20)

I was just in Milan, and which is the fashion capital of the world. I was visiting Bocconi University, and I had some time. So I went into this little store right across the street from the hotel happened to be this designer owner who was doing it. And of course, she had a field day. So she was, you know, putting on the shirt and then this and then the pants and. And she was bringing me all this stuff. And I said, you know, she brought me his first pants. I said, no, this is not a good style for me. So then she went into the back and she got another pair of pants and another shirt and then another jacket. And then before I knew it, I had this whole outfit. And I looked very Italian. And so it was definitely something that I wouldn't have picked out on my own. But I. I felt very, very Italian and very stylish for that particular moment. So it's kind of funny, but that's not what I expected when I walked in the store. I had no idea what I was going to find. So I think that's a good analogy.

Dr. Liz Kreider (55:11)

One of the things that is a light bulb moment for students is when they realize when you tell them that college admissions officers actually find it a good thing to learn from failure. And so that means you attempted something that you really had a lot of confidence in, that you set up the experiment with, like, your best thinking, but maybe you just don't know where the assumptions are right or wrong until you actually do the experiment. And so then there's that moment, I realize this, that X and Y really matters. And so most people don't find it very thrilling that everyone got to the top of Mount Everest. They can't see themselves in that. They can see, like, not that we celebrate people not getting to the top of Mount Everest, but isn't it so much more interesting and relatable when it's like, well, this happened and this happened. I made it to base camp, and then we had to decide and make a decision together? It's very human. Now, that's a lot to unload on a student. So all you have to say is, you know, admissions officers actually find they learn a lot about you when you talk about failure. And so dream big and do your darndest to have that outcome and then talk about what you learned from it. And you don't have to pay money for that.

Lisa (56:47)

Yeah, no, I mean, that's such great advice. And it's so, like, I love the way that your mind. Because of course, you're obviously a PhD from Caltech.

Dr. Liz Kreider (56:54)

You're.

Lisa (56:55)

You have this experimental mindset, and most experiments don't work. I mean, we work with a lot of medical school students when they're doing research and it's like, that's this epiphany. Well, most research takes a lot of time and there's a lot of things that don't work. And it's all a matter of iteration and you start to move forward on the mistakes that you make and learning from those mistakes. So that's really wonderful advice that you can give people. Any final things that you'd like to, to share with our audience because this has been so amazing.

Dr. Liz Kreider (57:26)

Well, thank you so much for the chance to talk about these things. Obviously, it's what drives me. I think the final thought I have for you is that when I come across a STEM student, which is a lot of my students because of the Caltech connection, even though what I do works for the hospitality major or the student interested in business, is that students understand the concept of like something getting better. You know, some people upgrade their iPhones every year. They're excited by a feature getting improved or battery life or something. And all of that is generated based on user feedback. You know, the. The battery dies or maybe it's planned obsolescence because they want you to upgrade again. But when it comes to personal iteration, they stay as far away from that as possible. They just avoid anything that might actually lead to them being revealed as a non expert or not the best version of themselves. And so if we can create a sense of comfort with, you know, you don't need to have it all figured out, but good habits of asking questions and time spent in a variety of areas that will lead to you upgrading yourself and iterating on maybe one thing, whether that's showing empathy, being a good sibling, you know, being a good friend, not avoiding the fact that you've gotten really behind in AP Euro, you know, don't avoid that. Say, okay, I'm gonna just deal with this head on.

Lisa (59:16)

All right, so, Dr. Liz, I want you to help me find my next fashion project. This has been really a wonderful conversation. I know. We could probably go on for another hour.

Dr. Liz Kreider (59:25)

I know, I know.

Lisa (59:26)

I want to thank you cvmers for tuning in and I also want to thank you, Dr. Liz Kreider, for such an insightful and motivational conversation. As I said before, we want to help you help us find our passion project. And I think this is it. This is our passion project, at least for. For the next year or so. To catch more episodes of Collegebound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe and please write a review. So that will really help boost the rankings. If you like what you hear, you can find it on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. To learn more, visit collegeboundmentor.com until next time you got this.