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Should You Work with an IEC (Independent Educational Consultant)? With Kristina Dooley
00:46:52
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- [00:02]
Christina Dooley
Families that do need us. It's when they call and they just are. And I say this in a kind way, spewing misinformation.
- [00:19]
Lisa
Hey CBMers, welcome back to College Ground Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. Were your co hosts Lisa, Abby and on today's episode, we're going to chat with Christina Dooley about how to find an educational consultant and what exactly an educational consultant does. Christina Dooley is a certified educational planner and founder of Estrella Consulting, a multi consultant educational consulting firm based in Ohio. In addition to her 18 years of experience as an IEC, Christina has previously served as both a college admissions officer and as a school based college counselor. Christina is the past president of the Independent Educational Consultant Association IECA and holds membership in nacac, OACAC and the International acac. So welcome Christina.
- [01:04]
Christina Dooley
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
- [01:07]
Lisa
Yeah, it's our pleasure. It's our pleasure.
- [01:10]
Abby
So why don't we start off just.
- [01:11]
Lisa
For those who are listening, they may not know what actually we call it an iec. What is an iec?
- [01:16]
Christina Dooley
So an independent educational consultant. The way that I explain it to people who look at me kind of funny when I tell them what I do for a is essentially we support students through a variety of different educational searches. Many of us work in the college planning space. So working with students going through the college search and application process. But they're also educational consultants who help with things like independent and boarding school searches, therapeutic program searches, grad school searches. Really a lot of different variations. But I'd say the vast majority of educational consultants are working primarily with kids looking at colleges.
- [01:53]
Lisa
Right. And what do you think are some myths and truths about what an IEC will do, can do, you know, value, etc.
- [02:02]
Christina Dooley
I would say probably the big, the one that I hear most often is that there's an assumption that IECs are completing the application pieces for students, that they're filling in the applications, they're writing the essays, they're doing all the things and then handing it over to a student to then turn it in as their own work. And I would say that's probably the greatest myth and for the unfortunate piece of it is that there are bad players in our industry that are doing that. The vast majority of us are not and are held to ethics codes by our professional associations that I think we'd follow anyway even if we weren't members of those organizations. But unfortunately there are some people out there not doing great things and doing exactly what people maybe are assuming. Educational Consultants do. I think the other myth that I think about often because I worked in a school is a lot of people assume that we fully replace school counselors, and that's just not the case. There's a lot of things that we don't do and that are not part of our tasks when we're working with students that the school counselor really needs to be involved and a part of. So I think those are two, like, major ones.
- [03:07]
Lisa
And it's interesting because a lot of families will ask, well, like if we're at. Usually it's when they're at a private school, but you know, even at a public school, like, what do you do that's different than the college counselor at our high school? Like, we're paying all this money. Why do we need you? What would you, what would you tell them?
- [03:22]
Christina Dooley
I think that the main piece of it is that if we look at student to counselor ratios in U.S. public schools, especially not so not. I'll talk about private schools in a second. But I think in public schools, thinking about just the counselors capacity to really dig deeply into individualized lists with students, for example, that may be hard, especially if students are looking at very specific types of majors or programs. It takes a lot of research hours to do that. And then also just even the evaluation process of what the students put together in their applications, the essays, the activity list, if they're putting together any supplemental essays, all those things, that's a lot of time for one school counselor, two school counselors to be handling. So I think that's, that's a big difference. I think in terms of private schools, I know we, we actually have great relationships with a lot of private school counselors. And when they refer students to us, it isn't so that they can hand them off. It's actually really so that we can work in tandem with them to put together a really solid school list. And maybe there are schools that they are not familiar with. Even private school counselors don't necessarily have the time or capacity to visit schools the way that independent educational consultants do, because this is our, our only job. We're not, we're not handling things like course scheduling. We're not handling things like setting up PSAT tests. And so we have some, some additional time to be able to get out onto campuses and, and really have a broader sense of what's, what's available out there.
- [04:47]
Abby
What would you say then along those lines is the role of the high school counselor when a student is also working with an iec?
- [04:55]
Christina Dooley
That's a Great question. For me, the school counselor is an integral part of the process because not only do they do what we'd say is kind of like the office functions, like sending of transcripts and school profile recommendations and all of those kind of administrative things, but I do think that the school counselor actually can play a significant role in a lot of students processes because they are essentially in the school setting with the students. They understand the curriculum within the school, they understand the trajectory that the student's been on academically and why that has happened. Sometimes consultants, independent educational consultants, start working with students maybe as sophomores or juniors. And so they may not have the full scope of the picture of why was that student placed in that math trajectory as a freshman. And so I think I've had great conversations with school counselors about some of that back information which is helpful to me in recommending options to them or even things like if a student has a diagnosed learning difference and they're getting some accommodations in school, the school counselor can help give some context around what does that look like and what do they see in terms of needs for that student going forward. So I do think that's why it's so I do think it's important that IEC start to bridge gaps and relation, build relationships with school counselors, especially in their own communities, because we're all really trying to help the students as a team. And so I try to stress that a lot, but maybe I have rose colored glasses, but I have those relationships with school counselors and I find it really valuable.
- [06:28]
Lisa
And how have you developed them? Because we, we've all, we're totally open to it and we would love to have that, but sometimes we're seen as, I don't know, there's just sort of this divide between the school Counselors and the IECs. And you were a school counselor, so I don't know if that helps a little bit.
- [06:43]
Christina Dooley
That's a great question. I don't, I don't have a secret sauce, but I think I, the main thing is I've, I've gone into my outreach to schools assuming that they'll look at me as a peer. I try not to go in thinking that they're going to think of me as a negative in that process. Of course you're 100% correct there, there. I've certainly had school counselors that don't appreciate my involvement with a family and you know, that is what it is. But I, what I have found has worked in terms of kind of bridging those or building relationships with School counselors is. I've worked really hard to become involved in a lot of the same professional associations that they're in, like NACAC for example, or my regional acac, which I think is important for them to see you in the same spaces and know that you're lear learning in a lot of this those same ways that they are. The other way, and this is kind of unique maybe to us is that we actually have started just a few years ago doing some intentional outreach to school counselors where when we're offering programming, whether that's webinars, whether that's in person events, we add them to email lists, we with their permission, you know, we'll send them information. And they have been actually very grateful for that. When we host a webinar on something like aviation programs or performing arts programs or highly selective admissions, they are thankful, I think, because they don't have the bandwidth or time to be able to put together programming like that to share with their families. And we very intentionally make those kinds of professional development things or webinars or events. We try very much to not make them overly promotional. For Estrella, Estrella Consulting is the name of my business. We try not to push that on people in those. We really want them to feel more educational. We have also, and it's interesting the timing of us chatting now because we just held our second. We're now calling it our second annual because we'll continue it going on from this year. A day long workshop for administrators and local school districts. We did it last year at the request of a local assistant superintendent who said, you know, when families are upset about something happening in our school district about college stuff, they call the superintendent's office or they call the principal. And oftentimes those people don't really know the landscape of higher ed and don't really know how to respond to those parents who are upset about something that in many cases is actually a non event. You know, it's something that they really. Yes, they're upset, but. But it's emotional, it's less fact based. And so this assistant superintendent basically asked us if we could put a workshop on for administrators to really give them an understanding in a succinct way about what does the college process look like in 2025 or 2026? What does that look like? What should we be paying attention to as a of our educational programming, our staffing, all of those things, what we're allowing our school counselors to do. And so we did that last year. It was excellent. We had about 50 people who attended from almost 30 different school districts. We had a sec, another district who asked us to do it in their district. This year we did it again. It was equally fabulous. Before I arrived home from that event this year, I had an email from another district saying, please bring that to our district.
- [10:01]
Lisa
A new business model going through. That's awesome.
- [10:06]
Christina Dooley
Yeah. But there were many school counselors there too, and that was great. I think them seeing us presenting information and us really demonstrating our expertise helped maybe if they had some negative feelings about independent educational consultants. Seeing my colleagues and I presenting on topics like financial aid, testing, you know, all those kinds of things, I think it maybe changed some of their perceptions about what we do and just the amount of work that we actually really do put into becoming well versed professionals in this space.
- [10:35]
Abby
That's excellent.
- [10:36]
Lisa
If a family is asking and you know, we all get these calls, right? And families will always say, well, did I miss anything? What else should I ask? So what do you think would be, I don't want to put you on the spot, but like sort of three to five key questions that you think a family should ask to try to understand if it's the right fit for them.
- [10:55]
Christina Dooley
Very important thing I mentioned. There are people who, a lot of people refer to them as dabblers in our space. You know, people that aren't that are doing this because maybe they've had a child that's gone through the process and they have suddenly become an expert in college planning. I think it's really important if you're vetting an IEC to know their credentials, you know, what are they involved in? Are they part of a professional association that requires them to sign an ethics code annually? I think that's important. I know people, there are some IECs who feel that they don't need to be affiliated with an organization. And I just, I think that that is a big mistake. I think it's important and I think families should be asking that kind of thing. I think asking things about how, how are you learning about schools and financial aid of those things. How do you stay up on what's happening in this space any different than a parent could be doing? You know, what, what would make it different than a parent googling the answers to something or using AI to generate a college list? I think parents should be asking how are you? How are you learning things that I'm not going to know? And I think that's really important. And you know, there's a lot of answers to that. We visit campuses, obviously we participate in professional conferences, we. I don't know how many webinars we listen to in a year or podcast like this. You know, I think that's really important as well. And I think one of the things that is a question that I would if. If I may say, a question that I actually wish families would not focus on and that is solely outcomes.
- [12:23]
Lisa
Yeah. What's your success rate?
- [12:25]
Christina Dooley
Yes, I would. I wish families wouldn't say, you know, how many of your students have gotten into XYZ University because that has no bearing on their child. That is not as. It's really. It's not us getting kids in. I. That's the other thing. It kind of makes my skin call and we say we got them in because I don't kids in anywhere, you know, they get in exactly.
- [12:44]
Lisa
They get themselves in with our help. They. They put in the work and they get exactly. I know. That's one of my pet pieces as well. I just had a conversation yesterday was like, what's your, you know, what's your admit rate or what's your success rate? And I was like, you know what? It's. It's really just depends on the student. I mean, sometimes students are reaching too high, which there's. I said I'm not magical. We can't like make them something that they're not. But if someone's appropriately reaching and, you know, then we're going to help them get into the right fit for them.
- [13:13]
Christina Dooley
Them.
- [13:13]
Lisa
Right. And so that is a. That's a great point about the, you know, what is your success rate? Because it varies so much by student and by what the needs of the student and the family is. I just got.
- [13:25]
Abby
How many of your kids get into the Ivy Leagues?
- [13:27]
Christina Dooley
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And I think the Ivy Leagues aren't right for the vast majority of kids. So that actually makes them sense to ask. But I think and. And we've had kids get. Go to the Ivies, but we don't lead with that because that's not. Again, it's not. In fact, for me, my favorite statistic annually, if you ask our team what the thing I really focus on, it's typically either one of two things. One, the. The number of different colleges where our students are accepted and also new colleges to our list. I love when we say can say we've got 12 colleges that have just been added to our list of schools where students have been admitted that have never been on our list before. And that's to me indicative of us truly finding fit for kids because it just because we have this list. It's not cookie cut. We only have 20 schools that every kid should be applying to. It just doesn't. It shouldn't work. That. Of course, you know, depending on where you're located regionally, you may have flagship schools that everyone is applying to. It's kind of just a thing. Right. But I think when you're able to identify other schools and I just, I get excited about those kinds of opportunities to help kids find schools that are not necessarily those ones that everyone is applying to.
- [14:37]
Lisa
Yeah, so true. Especially when you go visit a school and, you know, you're always thinking like, oh, would this, you know, which of my clients in my list might this, you know, fit? And then maybe it doesn't even happen until a year or two later where you meet a student. You're like, oh, my God, this would be the, like, this is a place for you. And I love when family will say, you know what? You helped me. And, and in our minds, like, we know all these schools. Right. So it doesn't seem like it's such a. An unusual school, but like a family will say, you know, we went to the school. I never even heard of it before you. And it was like Wesleyan, you know, I was like, I never even heard of the school. And it was like the perfect fit for my child. And, and for me, when I met that person, I was like, oh, that's the school for you. And it was, was. It didn't seem like it was such a big stretch because it was just. I kind of have that art and the science of making the match. Right. Which I think AI does is doing a pretty good job, but I still feel like there's not that sort of intuition, I guess.
- [15:30]
Abby
Right.
- [15:31]
Lisa
Yep.
- [15:31]
Abby
Connection. Yeah. How have you seen the industry change in the last five years? My head is being flooded with overwhelmed changes that I'm thinking about now. But, you know, if. If you were to the few biggest changes that have really impacted your work, what would you say?
- [15:51]
Christina Dooley
I think certainly AI has changed a lot of things. I think it will continue to change things. I think. I don't think we've seen even a little snippet of it yet in terms of how it's going to change our work. And I think there's people that I think are helping, especially our industry, learn how to use AI to supplement what we do versus replace it. And also how to teach our students ways to use AI to support their processes without feeling like that's going to be the thing that's going to guide me 100%, you know, that I'm going to just plug something in and be able to go with it. I think also it'll change the application review process. I know there's. During the workshop we presented recently to school administrators, we talked about that. That was the main question that came up from school counselors and administrators. How are colleges using AI to review applicants? Not, not how. How are applicants using it, but how our colleges using it. And there aren't many schools that have come out publicly with how they're using. And I think they're a little leery of saying how they're using it, but some have. And I shared an anecdote from the Daily Tar Heel that UNC had. They, they basically did. They said, this is how we're using it. We're using it to evaluate essays at the front end and assign an essay score. And there was a screenshot that they shared that a student had gone in to their file and they were able to see how that was used. And I've heard of other schools obviously that are schools that have hard and fast requirements in terms of, like, requirements, you know, four years of English, three years of math, you know, that kind of thing. And having AI going to do a first pass of the transcripts to make sure those basic things are there. And that makes sense to me with the broad number of applications that are out there. But I think the other thing that's changing, and maybe this is an impact of AI is I actually have said this a couple times recently that I think we will start to see major shifts in terms of essay work with students and you know, the value of the essay in the process for that reason. But I think many schools, and like Glimpse, for example, from initial view, has come on the scene in terms of bringing people, you know, a visual and actual personality to the student. How do you get that without having a 30 minute in person interview, which colleges just don't have the capacity to do that anymore. And so these Glimpse videos, I think they're on to something with that. I think that that could potentially be one way that our profession starts changing is we may have to, as IECs, for example, start learning how to help students be able to do their elevator pitch, you know, or do something that's like a 30, you know, or 60 to second to a minute.
- [18:29]
Lisa
I feel like that's hard for a lot of kids to do that. I mean, some kids are natural doing, but I think it puts a lot of pressure on kids who aren't perhaps as strong visually or Strong on video. Some kids, it's like second nature to them. But some kids, it's a challenge and I think it is all of these different things. I had heard and I hadn't validated this, but someone said that they heard that there was going to be basically a prompt that would show up on a screen and the kid would have to write their essay right there and then. Have you heard that?
- [18:58]
Christina Dooley
I have seen that actually. I had a student applying to a university and she was applying to engineering programs. She had to log on at a certain time and the prompts would pop up and it was recorded also. So she was also being. Being recorded. Her keystrokes were being. It was all recorded and they were just short answer prompts. They weren't overly challenging, but very anxiety inducing. I will say that she reported back afterwards, but I will say she didn't know what to expect. There wasn't much given to her in advance about what those questions would be. They weren't hard though. They were very, almost, almost if you picture the supplemental 150 word essay, but even slightly shorter kind of very direct question. I could see schools doing that. But again, I don't know. I would imagine that that's just a technology evaluate technological evaluation of some sort that's doing that. Not a human necessarily evaluating those.
- [19:51]
Abby
I don't know.
- [19:52]
Christina Dooley
I'm not sure how that.
- [19:52]
Lisa
Yeah, I don't know what that's going. I mean they have those in, you know, for medical school they have like MMIs, but it's more that they put out the prompt and then you have to respond but you're, you're doing it. Some of it is in writing, but most of it is verbally. So. So yeah, it's thing for that. So that also brings up an issue for people who have learning challenges who aren't able 100% and so interesting.
- [20:16]
Christina Dooley
And I think a lot of those things, you know, when we think about, we think about essays and that's a challenge for some students. And then you think about verbal thing or you think about things like that. I think there's. I don't know if schools will have to have different options for students to choose from, which I think think would make sense because then students could choose what their comfort level is with different things. But I think that's definitely. I just can't imagine a world where five to ten years from now we will have a 650 word common app essay. And that is. I just, it's hard for me to think.
- [20:46]
Lisa
Really, you think that's Going to go away completely.
- [20:48]
Christina Dooley
I just, yeah, I don't, I don't know if it'll go away completely. But like I said, I wonder if it will become an option. You know, that we've got a couple different ways that you can demonstrate something. I mean, you also think about the schools that are asking for students to submit graded papers. You know, it's, there's so many different things, I guess. And I, and, and some students, you know, you, I never want to say something. It's like, oh, it's not fair, but like having the same set of standards for every student when it's. Students are given the ability to be educated differently and express their aptitudes differently in the educational settings that they're in, in high school and then expecting them all to, to have the exact same something I think is a little, I don't know what that's going to look like. I wish I did. I wish I could say, and it's, it is hard and I will actually say, and I think you might know this, Lisa, but like I have ninth, I have triplets myself that are in ninth grade. And I struggle to even think about what their college application is going to look like. You know, I, I think it will be very similar to what's happening now. But I, for example, I mentioned like glimpse videos. I already am thinking, oh gosh, what would my kids talk about in a glimpse video? They talk about me, you know, so thinking about, you know, that kind of thing and how different that is in terms of the process. I think, you know, I think the other thing that's changed in going back to the question about what's changed in our profession or industries, I think they're just the sheer number of people doing this work and the access to information. You know, we do a lot of things virtually. One of the things that I've heard so much lately is, is there still value in actually physically going to visit campuses? And I'm just a campus visit junkie. So I feel like, gosh, I couldn't, I wouldn't want to do this work if I was just learning everything through a screen. I feel like that wouldn't for me work, but I think it's broadened the number of people that can do this work maybe because they do have access to things virtually.
- [22:48]
Lisa
There's nothing that replaces a campus visit because even if you see, even if you watch, you know, videos etc, it's not the same as being on campus and seeing the vibe and you've dropping on students, talking to students and and really just seeing what it feels like on that campus because I've had such different perceptions of a school until I go visit it, and then I visited and absolutely, completely different idea of who would. Whom it would serve. Well, and. And what are the students like and what's the experience going to be like? And it changes over time. Like, you know, you go back to schools and you visit them, and there are some changes.
- [23:22]
Abby
And it's a feeling. It's kind of the same gut you'd get if you're interviewing for a job. You can't quite articulate why you feel like it's a good fit. I'll never forget when my son showed up on the campus that he ended up attending. He graduated a couple years ago. It wasn't even on his list, and he was just on it. You know, we were doing a trip, and I was visiting some schools for work, and we went to the one that he thought was his number one choice, and he was like, yikes, this doesn't feel quite right. And it wasn't. Lisa was working with him. And Lisa the whole time been like, you know, that's not the school for him. I'm like, I know, but he's got to figure that out for himself.
- [23:53]
Lisa
And then we went to the school.
- [23:54]
Abby
That he ended up going to, and before anything happened, before he even saw a person, it was literally nothing like he described. And he was like, this is it. I was like, what about it?
- [24:04]
Lisa
What about it?
- [24:05]
Abby
He like, can't explain it. I feel like I'm home. I'm like, okay.
- [24:08]
Lisa
And you know what?
- [24:08]
Abby
He was super. Right.
- [24:10]
Christina Dooley
Yeah. Well, I think one of the industries we. Our industry often gets compared to are Realtors. And I think it's a good analogy, actually, because it is. Like, if you just had a. The, you know, just going on to Zillow and looking at the listing, you know, yeah, you're not seeing the neighborhood. You're not seeing the cracks in the foundation. You're not seeing, you know, all those things. But that's where we can say to them, hey, I've been there. You really need to go. Because here's what's. What you're not seeing just through that little snapshot that you're getting, you know, through an online search or something.
- [24:41]
Abby
Yeah. Speaking of. So I feel like there's a TikTok effect on our industry that takes many, many forms. And, Lisa, if there's something specific that you want to hear about TikTok, but for me, when I think about it, I think that there Are some like faux experts out there giving questionable advice? And then also the kids are seeing kids talk about their essays and everything else. So I think there's just like this flood of strangely formatted information out there. Lisa, do you what, what's your take on Tick Tock? What do you want to hear about?
- [25:19]
Lisa
Well, I mean, I think it's the same thing because people, students will, family students will come and say, oh, I heard this on Tick Tock. Or what about this? This is what the, this is what so and so said on Tick Tock or, or even on social media or whatever it is. And that my essay has to be like this. Yeah, like that. Or this is what I'm supposed to do for that. And so it's, it's hard as a, an IEC because you've worked, worked with the student, you know the student really well, you understand what drives them and there's a purpose for what they're telling in or showing in their stories. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, this particular, you know, whatever it is has said that it should be like this, but they don't know the person and they don't know like what you're trying to achieve. So how have you seen as well.
- [26:04]
Christina Dooley
No, I agree with everything you're just saying about all of that. I, and I mean, full disclosure, I don't tick or talk. And I don't either.
- [26:12]
Lisa
I don't tick or talk.
- [26:14]
Christina Dooley
The clients do.
- [26:15]
Abby
Clients are ticking and talking.
- [26:17]
Christina Dooley
Yes. And it's not just students. It's parents too. You know, that's the thing too. It's not just the students that we hear that from anymore. It's parents too. And I think it's out of control, but it's almost, it's almost, you know, if you think who were the. Who would. And I'm going to be dating myself saying this. But like thinking about what I we probably all at some point growing up watched shows like Jerry Springer or Maury Povich or like Ricky Lake or you know, like one of these, like talk shows and like hear these things on there and sounds right. Like it sounds like, you know, and so thinking like who. How do you know who the experts are? How do you know? Because someone's giving them a platform to share that. And obviously with TikTok, it's anybody can be doing that. I do, I do tell my students actually some of them will, some of them will share funny ones with me. You know, they'll tell me about them that they actually, they think are funny because they're so crazy, you know, that it's unbelievable. And so I'm hoping that that's, like, turning as that students are seeing things and they're starting to realize, like, that sounds a little bit ridiculous or that essay topics, you know, that just. Oh, really? Would that really be what I should write about? Or, you know, and so at least they're asking and not just going and doing them. But I would say I'm actually hearing more of those things about, like. And they don't say they heard it on TikTok. I should say that the parents, I think, are embarrassed to admit that that's where they're hearing some of the things they'll say, well, I heard. And then when I dig a little deeper and it's not even like a parent Facebook group, which I can say, okay, I understand that. But they' they won't admit that they're seeing it on Tic Tac.
- [27:50]
Lisa
They've gotten all.
- [27:50]
Christina Dooley
Some information or chat GPT. Yeah, that's a really good point, too, Lisa.
- [27:54]
Lisa
Yep.
- [27:54]
Abby
For chat GPT, they say, I read it somewhere. I read somewhere that I have a. I have a kid working on a Dartmouth essay. Why Dartmouth? It's 100 words. And he's like, I read somewhere where every essay has to have an anecdote. And I was like, well, if you can pull off an anecdote in 100, an impactful anecdote in 100 words, you go for it. But read the question carefully. They're asking why Dartmouth is a good fit for you. So, yeah, but no, everyone has to have an anecdote. I'm like, okay, if you say so. ChatGPT. Yeah, exactly. So funny.
- [28:27]
Lisa
Okay.
- [28:28]
Abby
Are there occasions where you talk to families and you think, you know, you don't really need an iec. An iec. Or, you know, you meet people and you're like, oh, you really need an iec. So what kinds of families need us? And what kind of families. Families don't need that kind of support, in your mind?
- [28:44]
Christina Dooley
I think sometimes the families that reach out where. And I mentioned we have great relationships with a lot of our school counselors in the area. So there are times when I. When what they're telling me is something that maybe the family doesn't realize that the school will actually be able to support them fully with that, whatever that need is. But. But I would say even in those cases, a lot of times families feel like they need something to supplement that work, so maybe they're not using us for a full college planning package. And the way that Our services are, is we have families who can work with us for 3, 5, 10, 35 hours. So there's different options that they can engage our services. So some will hire us for example for like a three hour package. But it's really to supplement the really good work that they're getting or support they're getting from their school counselor. I also think sometimes if a student's application process, if they're applying to all of our are, for example, let's say they're applying to all of state schools that don't have any additional supplements and the schools are accepting 70% higher of their applicants. You know, I think there's situations, I think it's really, it's individual of course, depending on the student. But I think, you know, in situations like that where maybe they just need some direction, they don't necessarily need expertise. It's almost like they need some of the mechanics. They just need you to help them understand what the process pieces are. But then once they hit submit on that first application, they're ready to go with the rest of them. They understand what they need to do. But I think with students, if a school is reviewing an essay, I do think that essay work, even for those schools that are have a higher acceptance rate, but they're looking at the essay. I do think that we can be helpful with that because I tell students often that that main common F essay, we encourage them to repurpose that for scholarship applications or other things. So I do feel like we can still be helpful in that. So I don't find a lot of families that reach out to us in where I say to them, you don't need us. But I also, we're, we're honest with them about how much they need us, if that makes sense. So I don't oversell them, you know, and say you need to engage us for this full shebang. But families that do need us, it's when they call and they just are. And I say this in a kind way, spewing misinformation, you know, where it's, but it's been fed to them, you know, where it's like we again there, maybe that's through social media, maybe, maybe it's, maybe it's chatgpt, maybe it's the Friday night football games. They're hearing all this stuff and, and they come and we realize we have to, we got to correct a lot of that information that they've just been fed and direct them in the right way so that they are doing things and maybe that's in list development. You know, maybe they are just really, it's the list that they've told us and that's on our, we have a questionnaire that our client experience manager asks some of these. It's contemplative questions when she does a discovery call. And one of the questions is, you know, are you, do you have already schools that you're looking at? And then are you student a legacy? And the anticipation is that they're going to apply to those schools, you know, because some of that information is very helpful for us to understand their mindset and also the beginnings of what their expectations are for us and whether or not we want to work with them. Because that's the other thing I tell IECs all the time. You don't, you don't have to take on a family. That's a choice. And so, yeah, so we're really specific about. We do have families that we will refer out to other consultants or, you know, to the IUCA directory because we're not the right fit for them.
- [32:11]
Lisa
Right. And I think that's true. It is very much like, you know, finding a college, finding a college consultant. It's the chemistry and you have to make sure it's there. What surprised you? I'm going to switch gears a little bit, but what surprised you in your role as the president of ieca? And for those of, for our listeners who don't know, that's the Independent Educational Consultant association, which is an association of, of IECs across the board. So what surprised you in that role?
- [32:36]
Christina Dooley
I think what surprised me was, and my presidency was during the pandemic, so I was a lot of surprises there. But I would say, and I don't know why this was surprising to me because I know lots of IECs, but I was actually really surprised and infused with excitement about our profession by, by the way that people supported one another in our profession and continue to do that. Because I felt like, especially during that time, there was just so much shenanigans going on that it was like, you know, everyone really needed people, especially those who were independent. Truly independent solo practitioners needed people. And I found that the support network was incredible. And also for me, I would say that the. I felt so supported as president of ieca. I still do to this day. I still have people who are so kind and want to help me as an iec, but also in my role as a leader in the association. And I tell people all the time, the members and the committee chairs and the affinity group leaders, the board members, the Staff, they all made me look really good. I mean I was the president, but I, there was a whole lot of people that were doing great things and again I, there were people I met that I didn't know and so I was just, it was great to be able to do that. But that support, even how strong the regional groups were, I knew my own regional group, but some of our regional groups in ieca, I mean they are incredible just in terms of the support network that they provide to one another. And that really was, I think, something that was a surprise to me because I didn't realize how, how much that was happening in our association.
- [34:23]
Lisa
Yeah, we are a very supportive group. I guess it's because we're all in this profession to help other people. So we like to help each other. I think it's really nice. So you recently presented at maccac. What did you present on?
- [34:34]
Christina Dooley
I presented on creating effective counselor advisory boards and the impetus for that was, I've served on several counselor advisory boards over the years which essentially for those who aren't familiar is. Counselor advisory boards are group of school counselors, IECs, CBO representatives, college bound organizations that basically serve to advise admission offices and on things that they should or shouldn't be doing in terms of recruitment and visits and those kinds of things. And so I've been on several over the years and have found that they really vary in terms of, I would say the value that they're providing to both the institution and to the people participating because everybody is a volunteer and, and so I thought it was would be helpful to share. We had a panel of people sharing both as a participant and then we had some folks from the college side who shared what they're doing with their counselor advisory boards and giving advice. Everything from how do you choose members to what do you talk about or what do you task people to do when they're part of that, to even some of the things we even talked about, some of the legal considerations, ethical considerations of having, having, having people on a counselor advisory board. And it was great. It was really well attended. In fact, just this morning I have an email in my inbox from the Ohio association for College Admission Counseling asking us if we'll repeat it at the OAC conference in the spring because it was really well received.
- [36:00]
Lisa
Well, good. Well, it seems like you are creating your kind of all of your curriculum to just come across the nation and present.
- [36:08]
Christina Dooley
You know, I, I, I'm going to take that at least. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know I do, but I do all the, you know, a lot of these things are self serving. I, it's, it sounds, you know, like I, yes, of course, it's great. I love, I love putting together stuff like that to help my peers and colleagues. But a lot of the stuff like that, or if I host a webinar, I do something like that. A lot of the times it's because I want things to be great for me and my colleagues too. You know, I want, you know, if I want to serve on a counselor advisory board and I want it to be useful and I want it to be helpful to them. And so I think, okay, how can we make everybody. Everyone's be good? And same thing with this workshop I mentioned earlier with the school counselors and the administrators. I want those relationships. I want to be welcomed by my school side peers and, and all of that. So.
- [36:52]
Abby
Yeah, well, given that you're, you have such a nice broad view of the industry in terms of clients and administrators, can you tell us what are the trends in college admissions that you're expecting to see? Because we're just getting started on here hearing about admissions for this year. But what are the trends that you're expecting to see this year that are different from what we saw last year? So changes?
- [37:18]
Christina Dooley
Well, I think some of the testing things, I think you know this right now we're seeing kind of a slow startup Boulder starting to roll with schools going back to requiring test scores. And I'm in Ohio, so the Ohio State University is requiring scores for students again starting next year. That's a big change in my world. And truthfully was somewh unexpected in terms of timing in our space. I don't know that people thought that they'd always remain test optional but, but I think the timing was, was fairly abrupt I think for a lot of people. So I think we'll see some more of that. And we're again, we've just seen some of that in the last couple weeks and that'll change things. I think for us the biggest change and this started to happen last year is this Southern migration. The number of, number of students in the Northeast, the Midwest that are just wanting to all go south. And I don't know if you guys are seeing that too, but it's crazy the, the schools in the south that used to feel really accessible for kids from, from Ohio or from other places up here in the Midwest, that even kids who getting into Ohio State was a challenge and they could get into some of those southern big SEC schools, for example, and it's just not the case. They're just much more. More selective. And that's, that's going to continue, I think, very much. And so, you know, we saw it with schools like Clemson, obviously, some of those other schools like Georgia, some of them already been a little bit selective. Tennessee. But I, I hope there's a couple schools I even hate. I like, I like. You don't even name them because I.
- [38:52]
Lisa
Don'T want people to tell us later. You'll tell us later.
- [38:55]
Christina Dooley
No, but the reason I'm hesitant to mention them is because I don't want students applying to them.
- [39:00]
Abby
Because.
- [39:00]
Lisa
Because those are the schools that have.
- [39:03]
Christina Dooley
Been so wonderful, not just for acceptance, but really generous with merit money and attracting some of our students from here. I have students who attend and I will actually name two of them, Alabama and Kentucky. I've. We've had students go, and especially they get into the honors program, you know, or something. They, Those experiences for them are phenomenal. I have kids graduating from those schools who say, oh my gosh, I wouldn't have changed that for the world. But I did not know that that was even. Even a plate. I did not know that that. So they're, they're grateful. Again, that's where I think the value of an IEC is. Sometimes students have. And parents have a view of. Of what they. They know those schools, they've heard, you know, they see them on Saturday football games, you know, but they don't know necessarily some of the guts in terms of the academic potential that's there. And that's where I feel like we can really provide that to them. So again, I think that's. That's probably the, like, most glaring trend that we're seeing right now is, oh, gosh, gosh, what's, what's happening there. And, and we only, you know, Ohio, we've got lots of great public institutions, but we've seen a lot of kids looking outside of the state, Miami of Ohio.
- [40:05]
Abby
That's, that's one that, I think with kids from the east coast, that's always sort of the Southern equivalent.
- [40:12]
Christina Dooley
It definitely is. And it's not the hard thing for us with families from this area is having them understand that some of those schools that were there, you know, I just fill out the paper and I'm in kind of places when they were a plaque, whatever I was, you know, growing up here, it's just not the case. We just even. We've been saying this for, I would say, at least probably the last eight years about Ohio State as an example, but Miami certainly is one of them. Cincinnati is getting very popular day now. We've like, yeah, we have a lot of schools here that are. Are popular with students from the Northeast and, and obviously a lot of our private colleges like Denison, Kenya and Oberlin, Case Western, you know, we've got. Ohio is a great place. I can't think it's place.
- [40:53]
Lisa
I remember I did a tour of Ohio schools and I really enjoyed that. Well, it's interesting because from I'm in New Jersey and Abby's down in Michigan, a lot of kids from New Jersey will go to Ohio State because that was a school that you could still get into. Like there was a. An interest of. Of non Ohians, but you know, New Jerseyans are good. So it is interesting. We just did a trends webinar and we had the same trends that we saw about the, the push to the Southern and also testing coming back. And the other thing that's interesting about the testing is that like, we used to have a blanket thing like, okay, you've got to send your sat, your ACT scores, like three to four weeks before you apply. And then during COVID we kind of, you know, changed the language on that. And I feel like now we have to bring that back because now it's. There are more schools that are requiring official test scores. And so it's just easier to just be like, just send them out so that you don't get caught up with not having those tests sent. So I think that's good. I don't know if you have a pulse on this, but how much do you think private equity is impacting our industry?
- [41:50]
Christina Dooley
I don't have a great pulse on it. I do. I think the impact of private equity is that this industry that has felt very Main street to me, like Main street shops of, you know, you walk in and people know you. That's what I picture what our industry was when I start, you know, And I think private equity has the potential to change it, to make it feel much more corporate. You know, I just, I don't. I see some of my peer companies that are, you know, being scooped up and I don't. I don't know. I don't. I don't really have a pulse on it, but I, If I had to anticipate that's. That's kind of the feeling that I have is that it will change that. That feel of things. Is that a good or bad? I don't know. I mean, there certainly there's, you know, an infusion of money to help support and grow and all those things could be helpful. But yeah, I'm not so sure.
- [42:40]
Lisa
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it impacts it. So is there any things or anything else that you want our listeners to know?
- [42:45]
Christina Dooley
You guys asked so many great questions. This was very good.
- [42:49]
Lisa
This was.
- [42:50]
Christina Dooley
No, it was like very like a lot of topics rolled into one. The only thing I'd say that I think is a hot topic area right now in our space, in IEC space that I have seen change since I started is the need for IECs to be, be more financially adept, like to know what is happening in the financial landscape. But also even things like my colleague at Estrella just presented to some IECs on financial health of institutions. And how do you assess that? I mean, who would have thought that that was something we had to worry about? But in reality, I know just even in my region, the schools that have been closing or mercy emerging as, you know, we, I feel like we have to pay attention to that when ICs are traditionally not everyone, but many IECs are known to look at some of those smaller private institutions because they're awesome and I, and you know, and I went to a small private institution and so. But I think we need to be aware of what's happening because we don't want to refer kids somewhere that, that you know, they have a likelihood of staying open for a year or two, you know. And so I, I hate that we're in that situation, but I think that that is an area that is the financial piece. I mean financial aid and affordability I think has been. You either love it or it's a pain in your side when you're in this work and in full disclosure that I. It's a pain in my side. You know, it's not an area I've ever really loved, but I have this great colleague who loves it. And so we're a great team in that respect. But. But I think it's a necessarily evil. We have to be paying attention to costs and helping families understand the implications of cost, which I don't think again, a lot of IECs, almost 20. When I started doing working as my EC almost 20 years ago, that wasn't something we weren't sending net price calculators to people you know, or sai we weren't doing that kind of thing necessarily on the regular. And that is something we are doing all the time in our work now. So I think that's a major, major change in our industry.
- [45:02]
Lisa
Right. And it's interesting that you say that because I remember One time I did a, a survey among my clients and I was like, and I, I hadn't really been doing financial aid. This was a while ago. This was probably 15 years ago. And that was the one thing that people said, you need to, you know, we need to have more information about that. So I was like, oh, yes, like that absolutely has to be something that we talk about. And I, and I agree with you. It is not even, you know, there's the smaller institutions that are closing or merging or getting acquired or being gifted to schools just out in Lake Tahoe over the summer. And Sierra Nevada, which is a very small college right in northern Lake Tahoe in Incline Village, was actually gifted to University of Nevada Reno. And so it's kind of this satellite campus and they're adding nursing there. And they're also doing these like Saturdays away or weekends away in Tahoe, which is kind of a cool thing that you wouldn't see. But on the other side of it, even like the larger, you know, well established like Brown and Hopkins and schools are laying off tons of people. Yeah, Purdue is, I mean, pur.
- [46:02]
Abby
There's a huge.
- [46:03]
Lisa
They just got rid of all of their honors faculty. So there's a lot of things that are going on and it is hard to keep track of all of those. So I think that's a really good point to be aware of that. Thank you cbmers, for tuning in and thank you, Christina for an amazing episode. It was so great to talk to you. To catch more episodes of College Pal Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast and tell a fellow parent or student about podcast. And if you like what you heard, please rate our podcast to boost our rankings so that more people can find find us. To learn more, visit collegeboundmentor.com and until next time, you got this.