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Colorado Matters
April 2, 2026: Decision in Tina Peters appeal; RiNo arts district future; Library connects book lovers and nature
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A
From cpr news, this is colorado matters. Is Denver's Rhino neighborhood a victim of its own success today? The effort to make sure artists aren't forced out of the arts district?
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B
I personally do think that's a Denver wide challenge. You know, in the year 2000, I joined EDGE Gallery as a baby artist in the Navajo Art district. Do you even hear about the Navajo art district anymore? It's off Navajo. No, you don't, because all the galleries got priced out.
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A
Then a 42 million doll library project underway now that'll connect book lovers with nature, lots and lots of nature.
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C
It will be part traditional library in some sense, and it will be part rei. We'll have lots of gear that people can borrow and lots of expertise around outdoor programming in an environment that really meets people where they are.
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A
We'll get a sneak peek as this library meets nature center project takes shape. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Chandra Thomas Whitfield. Today we start with breaking news. The Colorado Court of Appeals has upheld the conviction of former Mesa County Clerk Tina Peters, but overturned her sentence. The court has ordered a new sentencing hearing for Peters, asserting that she was properly convicted, but that her nine year prison sentence was based on improper consideration of her right to free speech. Our team of reporters is reviewing the 78 page decision right now and we'll bring you an update later this hour. The Riverside North Art District, widely known as rino, has become quite popular in Denver, attracting millions of visitors and millions of dollars in revenue, too. But behind that success was a major restructuring earlier this year that changed how the district is running. Now it's raising a bigger question about who actually has the power to shape what Rhino becomes and what that means for local artists. CPR's Hailey May has been looking into this and joins us now. Hey, Hayley.
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D
Hey, Chandra.
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A
First off, please explain for us exactly where Rhino is located in Denver. From what I understand, technically, it's within the borders of the extended historic Five Points community. Is that right?
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D
Yeah. So Five Points is still a big part of it, but the district actually extends past that into Globeville on the other side of the Platte, and into Elyria, Swansea and the Cole neighborhood as well.
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A
And what's now changed in rino?
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D
So back in January, the RINO Art District separated into three organizations. The Art District itself, which is a nonprofit focused on supporting artists and programming the Business Improvement District, which handles things like cleanliness and safety and the General Improvement District, or the jid, which focuses on infrastructure so streets, sidewalks and Public improvements. Now, they all still work together across Rhino's four neighborhoods, but now they have separate leadership, budgets, and even responsibilities.
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A
So how does that shift change things on the ground?
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D
What it really does is clarify who's responsible for what, but it also gives a glimpse into what they can't control across the board. Leaders told me none of these groups actually have authority over development. That's largely driven by private landowners, developers, and city policy. So even though these organizations shape the district in different ways, they don't control the biggest forces driving change. Here's Kia Butcher, the district's programs and exhibitions manager. You can't necessarily inform development or growth in certain areas, but we can help inform the right people to lift up and the right ways to approach the ever changing landscape and dynamic, especially in Rhino.
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A
And Rhino is growing quickly, right?
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D
It is. According to its annual report, the district saw more than 12 million visitors last year, and it generated about $10 million in sales tax revenue. Part of that is all the newer businesses and restaurants in the area. Here's Daisy Fodness McGowan. She's the district's executive director.
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B
Every single day of the week, there are people here, and they are, you know, typically have big smiles on their faces, especially when they are picking up coffee from Crema or grabbing a bagel at call your mother.
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D
So with that growth, there's also been a lot of investment, more than a million dollars last year, going towards infrastructure maintenance and safety in the district. At the same time, direct funding for artists is much smaller. 3 to $400,000 in 2025. But leaders say that's not necessarily a choice. It's more about how these districts are structured. And here's Rachel Marion with the jid.
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B
General improvement districts can only fund and maintain infrastructure, so all of our spending has to go to infrastructure construction and maintenance.
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So where does that leave artists?
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D
Well, Chandra, it's something that they've been dealing with for years. Both Daisy and Kaya agree. Studio space is limited, it's expensive, and demand is high, and that can make it hard to create art. But people do make it work. I got to talk with Amayas Gonzalez, an artist out of Montbello who just recently put on a big performance art show in Rhino at the Truss House. They were able to do that thanks to a subsidy from the district for the space. And here's what they had to say.
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A
Venues right now are probably one of the hardest things hitting performance artists and drag artists. Like, getting venue support is really, really difficult just with, like, the political climate and also just like price increases of things. So I'm very, very grateful that I've been able to do this with a, with a smaller budget. So there is support, but it's limited.
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D
Exactly. The art district does fund stipends, programming, and subsidized spaces. And leaders across all three new entities say they're trying to create new opportunities wherever they can. But there's no single group responsible for making sure artists can afford to stay in Rhino. Here's Daisy again.
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B
I personally do think that's a Denver wide challenge. You know, in the year 2000, I joined EDGE Gallery as a baby artist in the Navajo Art district. Do you, you know, do you even hear about the Navajo art district anymore? It's off Navajo. No, you don't, because the. All the, the galleries got priced out. But the point being, the city could have stepped in and, and made some efforts. Those are typically efforts that you need to see at the city level. That's why I think I'm really excited by the very clear and intentional investment of downtown Denver partnership with CAST, or the Community Arts Stabilization Trust, and the work they're doing.
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D
So CAST is an example of a group that can enter the space as essentially a developer for artists. But for the most part, you have a situation where everyone says they support artists, but very few people who actually control the factors pushing up the costs are working with them to make things affordable.
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A
So is this issue unique to rino?
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D
No, not at all. This is a pattern you see in cities across the country. SoHo in New York is a great example. Artists move into more affordable areas. They build community and really beautiful culture. And over time, that attracts more people, more businesses, and then more development. And then the cost of being there just starts to rise.
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A
So what happens next?
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Well, leaders I spoke with say they're committed to keeping RINO a place for artists, and they're working together to try to make that happen. But they also acknowledge that growth and change will continue and that they can't control that. So the big question, really, I think, Chandra, is whether RINO can remain a place where art is not just displayed, but actually made. Gonzalez says yes, but that artists themselves will need to fight for it.
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A
So many people, they protect themselves too much, and they also don't ask for what they want. I asked and I got.
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So I think, like, even with the body that I have, even with how
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I express myself, I do not let that stop me. And I think so many people do. And they look at a barrier and they see it and they just stay on the other side. I'M like, no, honey, how do I get over that? How do I move the barrier? And what's the best way the community can support the arts and artists like Gonzalez?
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D
Well, everyone I spoke with says just actually showing up can make the biggest difference. It's stuff we've all heard before, right? Art from local artists, going to shows, getting coffee and lunch from places that aren't chains. The district also has a ton of new events coming its way, including the arrival of the Underground Music Showcase and a new arts festival in October that they're hopeful will bring people in. But equally, Rhino wants to see the city do more to put money in the various districts across Denver. Here's Daisy one final time.
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There can just always be more done. And I think that as wonderful as it is to have the focus on downtown right now, and I totally get it, I'm a big downtown advocate as well, there are a lot of other parts of the city that need that continued investment and could really benefit from that as well. So my hope is they'll take the model of what they're doing there and be able to bring it to other parts of the city that, you know, maybe feel a little forgotten right now.
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A
Haley, thanks so much for breaking this all down for us. Thank you, CPR's Haley Mae. I'm Chandra Thomas Whitfield. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. At the library, you check out books, but a new space in Thornton will soon let you check out nature, too. It's called the Anythink Nature Library and it's slated to open in August. But today we are part of a small group getting an early look of the 33,000 square foot space that will also include walking trails, learning areas and gathering spaces built alongside the building that will also offer traditional library services. And this unique library, which will be the eighth branch in the Adams County Library system, arguably reflects how libraries are evolving and aiming to meet the changing needs of the communities they serve. Let's chat with AnyThink Libraries executive director Mark Fink and and the Nature Library's Branch manager, Maria Mayo Peaslee. Mark, describe for us what this project will be once construction is done.
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C
For a little bit of context, anythink Libraries at our current seven locations we have been doing a lot of work around environmental sustainability and stewardship. We recognized, based on community input, that having more access to nature for local residents was a priority. The way that I'm thinking about this project, it will be part of traditional library in some sense and it will be part rei. We'll have lots of gear that people can borrow and lots of expertise around outdoor programming and information about nature and education about nature in an environment that really meets people where they are.
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A
We know Coloradans love rei, so you already have a captive audience there. So, Maria, give us a quick roundup of the amenities that will be available at your branch.
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B
We found this amazing resource called the Environmental Kinship Guide that's written by a group of early childhood educators from around the world. And this kinship guide asks the question, how do we already build relationship with the natural world through experiences? They came up with these four learning modes of learning about nature, learning with nature, and then finally learning for nature, which is where advocacy comes into play. And that stewardship piece, we have an art and science lab. We've got boulders both inside and outside of the library for risky play, as well as spots where you can kind of tuck yourself behind a boulder and just read a book and have a little nook to yourself. We even have partner spaces in our branch where we could have a partner in residence come and stay for a while. So I imagine groups like Latino Colorado Outdoors, Denver Museum of Nature and Science could come and actually post up for a little while and share what they're doing around Nature Access. So we have this opportunity to support people doing the good work as well.
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A
Why this location? Was there something about it that made it stand out or were any other sites even considered, really?
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C
We were presented with this opportunity by the city of Thornton. They have 140 acre open space called Alor Lands. And once we saw that space, we knew that it was special and we knew that we would have a perfect opportunity to work with the city of Thornton to create something unique and beautiful and something that would be customized specifically for this space. I think a lot of people think of Colorado and nature and think about needing to go to the mountains to find that experience. But really, this 140 acres presents a really great opportunity for people to learn about the nature that's in their backyard.
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A
Enjoying the nature in your own backyard. And we love that here in Colorado.
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C
Absolutely, yes. And there's, you know, there's so much in our backyards. What kind of grasses grow in your backyard? What kind of birds do you see? What kind of wildlife do you see? We want to be able to provide some of those experiences, really, in a, in an accessible way at the nature Library, either by learning about those things through a program that we offer, or people can experience that when they walk on the site and go hiking.
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A
Tell us more about the facility that make it eco friendly.
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C
We are pursuing LEED gold certification. We are using geothermal energy for the heating of the building. We also have more than 300 solar panels on the roof of the building. A lot of the materials that we use to build the library are local. In our study rooms, we have wallpaper that's made of pressed plants and leaves and flowers. It just provides that sensory experience in study rooms inside of the library. One of the most striking features of the library is the feature column, which is in the front of the building. It's 18 tons of steel. That 18 tons of steel also holds up the roof line of the building.
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A
I don't know. It kind of reminds you of a tree trunk.
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C
Yes.
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Will this be a resource available exclusively for Adams county residents, or will others outside of the county be able to access these resources?
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Anyone is welcome. We do imagine that this might become a regional destination for us here on the Front Range.
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And lots and lots of programming for all ages.
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That's right. And something that we're really focused on with this library is also intergenerational learning. My earliest experiences, falling in love with nature, it was because of my grandmother and her passion for the plants and the birds and just taking slow walks with her and learning so much. And we look forward to thinking about how our volunteer program could support us in building really special intergenerational learning experiences at this branch.
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A
That's so precious. Thinking of you walking with your grandma. Well, Mark and Maria, before we wrap up, what is your personal favorite in terms of features and offerings that will be available when this library opens in August?
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B
You know, I've got to say, for me, it's the mud pit. Our relationships with nature have gotten really tidy, especially for children. And I think this will be a really special space in our community for. For hands on play and learning through that kind of play.
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Well, I have two boys, so I know they will love it. I will just have to make sure I bring some blankets for the car.
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Our parents are going to love this.
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Yeah, that's kind of a love hate thing. It's like, that was great, but now we have to get you home.
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Exactly.
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Well, Mark, what about you? What's your favorite feature?
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For me, honestly, I love the feature column, which is in the front of the building. I think all of us sitting the room had no idea how complicated it would actually be to execute. Seeing all the different individual pieces of metal and seeing the amount of engineering and math and science that went into actually designing the column and then building it and then installing it. It's really breathtaking.
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Mark. Maria. Wow. Thank you so much for talking with us about this amazing project.
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Thank you for having us.
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C
Yes. Thank you so much.
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Let's start the tour. Led by Anythink Libraries Executive director Mark Fink, the nature Libraries manager Aria Mayo Peasley, and senior project manager ismael Acosta with GH Phips Construction Companies.
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The 140 acre Alar open lands is a remarkable piece of property. You have vistas you can see all the way to Denver. This is the space where you will access the trailhead to go onto the regional trails that will be part of the Alar Open Lands.
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Wow. We are stepping into the library space. It's a true construction site, sprawling facility.
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You're going to get impressed when you enter.
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E
Right.
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F
These are 24 kids ceiling. You see the elevation.
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All that is acoustic build. So when I talk here, you guys go here. You start getting the feeling.
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This terrazzo had 50 animals from Colorado.
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These small inserts, we made sure even the furniture will not cover them because the intention is for the kids.
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We scavenger hunts, learn about the animals.
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So over here, you'll see this. This is an area that actually will have shelves. We are going to have 30,000 items that will join us in this library. This is your section where kids will go grab a cool book about bugs. This is also where they might be able to check out some binoculars. Or not binoculars. I was thinking microscopes. Thank you. Yeah, like a microscope or like a cloud observation kit. Something really cool that will help you connect with science. So we decided to put real boulders in our library. And this library was actually built around the boulders. They had to be placed first before we could pour any concrete. So these boulders are integral to what we're doing here and again, represent that idea that it's another access point. It's a place for somebody who might not feel comfortable going rock climbing in the mountains. They still get to touch this very special rock and feel a connection. So these are. This is a really special space to me. It continues outside, so you can't see through these windows right now, but this experience continues down a hill outside. So you kind of get to choose your adventure. Like, do you just want to kind of stay here where there's rubber flooring and, you know, maybe a caregiver close by? Or do you want to go outside and maybe tumble down a hill and end up in mud? So this is a. This is an experience for everybody where we hope that anyone can find that safe connection. And we also very intentionally place the boulders Almost to mimic like a river going between them.
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E
On your right, you're gonna see. This is what we call the quiet room, right? It's dark or quiet dark room.
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B
It is a completely dark room with light that simulates stars on the ceiling. One of our elders, Rick, said, well, actually, this is interesting because I want you all to know that evolutionarily, children learn better in the dark. And that goes back to that experience of oral storytelling around a fire. This space is not only beautiful, it's very intentional. And I imagine, like, immersive sound experiences in this space could be, you know, yoga or meditative type of programming. We also can just have this open for folks who might be having a rough moment and just needed a moment to recollect, you know, a moment before we were screaming and crying. The next second, we're in this amazing dark space, which is acoustically protected and looking up at a starry sky. So this is an outdoor amphitheater space. This amphitheater. I could imagine some outdoor story times, some acoustic music happening here. A performance space, essentially. So this is a very cool spot. Should I talk about the learning garden, too, or.
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A
Yeah, I think so.
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B
We can take so. And behind me, you see this wood structure that is the fencing for our learning garden. I imagine, you know, partnering with, like, master gardeners or CSU Extension and having really cool programming in this space. I also imagine having, you know, an herb garden that our staff plants so that customers can come and just snip some herbs for dinner. Maybe we plant the three sisters in one of the plots to honor indigenous gardening techniques. This is our mud pit. This is when we were in early conversations about what kind of experiences we wanted our customers to have. A lot of us spoke to this experience of, like, getting dirty and, you know, making mud pies and really feeling, like, that tangible connection to the natural world.
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A
We're gonna go one more spot here outside.
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B
This is the outdoor component of the art and science lab. It has a drain in the center of the floor, so we can literally hose it down for messy type of programming. The path that leads back to the front of the building is going to be almost like a mini Botanic gardens experience. So we'll have passive learning opportunities throughout that space to get to know local plants. You know, we have a. We have little neighborhoods almost, so we have, like, a desert region, plants sensory area, you know, high mountain region, even with, you know, some columbines, things like that. So this is another of those opportunities to connect from wherever you are.
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C
When you come back for our grand opening, in August. Whether English is your first language or Spanish is your first language, you're going to be greeted and welcomed into the space by people that are familiar to you and that live in your community. And I just want to say thank you on behalf of Anything.
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A
Anythink Libraries Executive Director Mark Fink, Branch Manager Maria Mayo Peasley and Senior Project Manager ismael Acosta with GH Philips Construction Companies taking us on a behind the scenes tour of the future site of the Anything Nature Library in Thornton, which is set to officially open in early August. To read more about the project, visit our website, which is cpr.org. We mentioned at the top of the hour that a ruling has just been issued in the case of former Mesa County Clerk Tina Peters. She had challenged her conviction and sentence at the State Court of Appeals. The court upheld her conviction but has ordered a new sentencing hearing. Colorado Matters producer Tom Hess, based in Grand Junction, has been reviewing the 78 page ruling ever since it came down. He joins us now with the details. Hi Tom.
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E
Hi Chandra.
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A
Let's start with the court's findings. Can you elaborate on the ruling?
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E
Yeah. So the headline here is that re sentencing that you mentioned, and that comes down to this claim that Peters has been making for, I guess, years now that part of her issue with the court was that it violated her First Amendment right to free speech. The things that she was saying about the elections, that they were fraudulent or election security, was what got her a harsher sentence than if she hadn't been saying anything. And so that's the claim she made. And the court of appeals agreed that part of that sentencing improperly considered her comments and didn't take into account those First Amendment rights.
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A
Now what did the ruling say about Peter's free speech rights at sentencing?
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E
So I'll read from the ruling here. And this is the Court of Appeals referencing the trial court where she was originally convicted. And they say the tenor of the court's comments that's referring to Judge Matthew Barrett in the case. The tenor of those comments makes clear that it felt the sentence length was necessary, at least in part, to prevent her from continuing to espouse views the court deemed damaging. And what the ruling goes on to say is that at that time Peters was no longer the clerk. So some of that doesn't hold and that some of the language did seem to drift towards a sentence that was considering her actions and what she was saying. And the Court of Appeals said that is probably not in line with her First Amendment rights.
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A
Have we heard from the attorney General's
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office yet we have Phil Weiser's office helped prosecute this along with Mesa County District Attorney Dan Rubenstein. Bill Weiser put out a statement saying that he thought the original sentence was fair and appropriate. One thing that they said was Ms. Peters is in prison because her own criminal conduct to prove false claims of voter fraud in the 2020 elections and she has not shown any remorse for her actions.
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A
Well, we're still reviewing the opinion, but would you say there are any surprises in this opinion?
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E
Yeah. What we haven't talked about, you mentioned at the top is that while this re sentencing thing is a pretty big deal, the original conviction all stands. A defense team challenged numerous portions of that conviction. Defenses that she should have been allowed to make, issues she should have been able to bring up, prosecutorial misconduct. None of those held water with the court of appeals. Those all got tossed. But they did find this resentencing issue. So you get a real it's not by definition a split decision, but it sure feels like that.
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A
Hmm. Well, it seems a little surprising. Was all of this kind of a rebuke of Judge Matthew Barrett?
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E
There was some specific analysis of the comments he made at trial and why that factored into their decision. You might remember that Matthew Barrett called Peters a charlatan, said that she'd showed no remorse and some portions of that factored into this. But I will note an interesting addendum to this piece is Tina's. Tina's attorneys had asked for a new district court to review the sentencing if it got remanded and the court of appeals didn't grant that. Now, it doesn't mean it's not possible. There are other ways to get that. But as it stands right now, if nothing were to change, it would go back to Barrett.
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A
Hmm. What does that mean for former Clerk Peters right now?
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E
This will eventually mean a trip back to district court because that's where all this is going to be had. There's a lot of moving parts left to sort out on when this is going to happen. We don't have a schedule lined up, but that's where we're looking at now is eventually this will go to the 21st Judicial District again in Mesa county, where Peters was previously the clerk.
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A
Now, as this has unfolded, we've been hearing that there is a chance that Governor Jared Polis might shorten her sentence. Any indication of where that stands now?
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E
Yes. That is sort of the side stage act that we've been following for months now as Polis has repeatedly made comments about her sentence being harsh. He's compared it to other people who have gotten some of these charges. One of the ones that shows up is attempting to influence a public servant. Peter's sentence on those was about three and a half years, which was kind of in the middle of the sentencing guideline. And Polis has called that harsh compared to other ones. Now, that has, of course, led to speculation about him commuting or shortening that sentence going forward. There had been talk that Polis was going to wait till after this opinion came out before acting, so our eyes turn to that discussion once again.
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A
Sounds like we'll be following this for quite some time. Thanks, Tom.
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E
Thank you.
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A
Tom Hess is our Western Slope producer based in Grand Junction. For continuing coverage of this developing story, keep checking CPR News and our website, cpr.org. This week, NASA sent four astronauts on an historic journey around the moon, marking the first lunar mission with the crew in more than half a century since Apollo 17. It's considered a critical step in laying the groundwork for future space exploration for humans, including missions to Mars and for our state. The moment carries a personal connection. In 2002, NASA astronaut John Harrington, who grew up in Colorado Springs, made history himself as the first enrolled member of a Native American tribe to fly in space. Harrington, who graduated from uccs, is a member of the Chickasaw Nation. We spoke in November. You were born in Oklahoma, which is where the Chickasaw Nation is headquartered, but you spent your childhood here in Colorado.
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F
Yep. My, my folks moved a lot. I was born in a little town called Wetumpka, Oklahoma, but my mom and dad moved to Colorado Springs. I was probably about a year old, probably a little over a year old. Lived down around Prospect Lake in Colorado Springs, lived up on Wasatch, went to Steel School, lived in Black Forest. So I consider really Colorado a place I grew up. And that's I have a lot of friends and a deep tie to the state.
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A
And when you blasted off aboard the space shuttle endeavor in 2002, you wore a bracelet that held a lot of meaning to you. Tell us about that.
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F
Oh, boy. Yes, I did. When I was in sixth grade, I was going to a Black Forest elementary and the principal was Edith D. Wolford, who the grade school is named after now. And my, my sixth grade teacher was named too, D. Royer. And she and some of my friends went down to the Rustic Hills Mall and, and bought me a little going away gift because I was moving from Colorado Springs to Black Forest to a Riverton, Wyoming. And so they had a going away party for Me and it said it was little ID bracelets back in the 70s or 60s and 70s, said John on the front, class of 70 on the back. And she gave that to me. And I just, I carried that with me for many, many years. And so when I flew in space I took it with me. And then I came back to the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. I invited Tudy Royer and her family to come to an event and I said, you know, some teachers really make an impression on a student and not because, you know, they're, it's not because the knowledge matter that they know, but the way they are, the personnel, how they care about people. And I said I had a person like that in my life and she's right here too. D Royer and I flew this bracelet 5.6 million miles in space. And I want to get back to you and thank you for being a good person and being a good teacher.
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A
Wow, how special. Don't you just love teachers?
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F
Oh, I started crying. She was crying, you know. Yeah, it's nice to thank people, thank somebody that made a difference in your life for sure.
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A
Well, they tell me that that is the payoff for being a teacher. So I'm sure you made her proud. So you talked about this a little bit, but what was it like growing up in Colorado? What do you remember about your time here?
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F
Oh, thousands of memories. We moved different places in the springs. You know, I lived down in Prospect, Ontario Drive. Lived on Wasatch. Best friend George Canola was over on Weber and Fountain Arrow. We did a lot of stuff in the mountains. Used to go four wheeling up around Chalk Creek, Mount Princeton mountainto. My dad belonged to the Colorado Springs Mineralogical Society. We used to hunt for crystals and so we did. I spent a lot of time the outdoors and I've always, always treasured the moments I had growing up in the springs and growing up in the mountains. I skied. My, my first ski lesson was the Broadmoor back when I was about 10 years old. My, my dad would take us flying and my dad was a certified flight instructor and he would take us flying from Colorado to Oklahoma and around the state and he let me fly. And so my first exposure to aviation was my parents air shows at Peterson Air Force Base. And just, I just enjoyed it. I loved living, I lived in the woods in Black Forest. I, I loved being outside, had a snowmobile and you know, those kind of things that I took for granted. I didn't realize every kid didn't get a chance to do that. I was very Very fortunate.
- [33:21]
A
Growing up sounds like Colorado really shaped you as a person.
- [33:26]
F
Very much so. I think being, wanting to be outside all the time. When I came back to school, I was living in Texas. When I graduated from high school, I moved about 14 times by the time I got out of high school and I moved back to Colorado to go to the university. My mom and dad actually were living in Colorado at the time. I stayed in Texas because I got tired of moving. Graduated, came back, went to work at the Sunbird overlooking Colorado Springs, a restaurant. But I would always venture out to the garden of the gods. I always like to scramble on the rocks and, and in my, my first and second semester of university, I, I spent a lot of time in the garden and I met two guys rock climbing one day and they asked me if I wanted to learn to rock climb and I said, you betcha. And so I started climbing and kind of quit studying. Didn't I put more, more effort into climbing than I did into education and got kicked out of school for low grades my second semester.
- [34:20]
A
Well, I've noticed that a lot of people assume that all astronauts are following some childhood dream that they just knew they were going to go to space one day. Was that the case for you?
- [34:33]
F
Yeah, I used to, you know, Black Forest. I would, back in the 60s, you know, the, the moon program, the Apollo program was in full swing. And so I used to sit in a cardboard box with my brother and a guy named Lynn Miller, my brother's friend. We would pretend we were astronauts. A dream about it. But I never thought of something. I actually, I never really pursued that till much later in my, my life, certainly in my career as a naval aviator. That's really when I really started to pursue it. But I do know people in the office when I was there that when they were seven years old, they said, I'm going to be an astronaut. And they did everything in their power to become an astronaut and became one. But that's not the majority of people in the office. You know, a lot of folks found something in their life and went that direction and found that as a, as a. Maybe not didn't start off as a goal, but became a goal and they pursued it. That's what I did.
- [35:18]
A
Now you again are a citizen of the Chickasaw Nation through your mother. How important was that heritage to you when you were young? Was that generally celebrated or was there a period where you felt different or othered?
- [35:34]
F
Well, I did not grow up in Oklahoma. I wish I had sometimes had a chance to be around My grand. My great grandmother was full blood Chickasaw, and she spoke the language fluently, but for whatever reason, she chose not to speak it to us. And so I did not grow up in an environment where I had that portion of my life on a daily basis. As you get older, you realize you something you missed. And I've always been very proud of my heritage. My mom was the one that always made sure my brother and I, we were identified through the, you know, the government, the way that works and the government defines, you know, citizenship, not citizenship in the tribe, but in terms of a certificate degree of Indian blood. They called it a CDIB. And so my mom, I think in the late 60s or 70s, said, hey, you know, we want to make sure that your Indian heritage is identified and this is who you are. And I've always been very proud of my heritage. I wish I'd learned more about it growing up, but for some reason at that time, my great grandmother chose not to share it with us, and I wasn't there on a daily basis to pick her brain on it.
- [36:31]
A
Well, obviously you have come to learn so much about it and embrace this culture. For those who aren't familiar, tell us a few things that you feel define the Chickasaw culture.
- [36:43]
F
Sure. There's a migration legend that we have, how our tribe came to be. And the migration story told through, you know, centuries, I guess, is that we came from somewhere. A couple brothers were leading a group of their tribal members away from a more warring faction, and they headed east and came across the. What became the Mississippi River. And the two brothers had followed a sacred pole. And they had a little disagreement on the other side of the river on whether or not to continue. So one brother Chickasaw and other brother Choctaw decided to separate. And one went on the Chickasaw side and the Choctaw stayed. And so our tribe ended up really the. The archaeological aspect of it. We came from the mound building culture in the southeastern United States, around Moundville, Alabama, around, you know, Cupola, Mississippi and that. Mississippi, Alabama, in that area, Tennessee. But we first encountered Western civilization. Hernando de Soto, his chroniclers, actually, you know, they chronicled meeting the. Meeting the Chickasaw. And so what I've learned from my tribe is that we, we had leadership in my tribe that made the right decisions, the right point in their history that allowed them to survive. And, you know, throughout, you know, from that time, you know, siding with the English against the French, signing with the Americans against the English, and then getting kicked out of the Southeast United States by Andrew Jackson on the Trail of Tears. So my leadership in my tribe has always made the right decisions for the betterment of their tribe. And I found that in writings that I found through in a time capsule in Oklahoma one day. That's a story in and of itself.
- [38:23]
A
Hmm. So, as you mentioned, your family moved from Colorado to Wyoming and then Texas, but you returned to attend uccs and you took up a very Colorado sport. What did climbing mean to you?
- [38:39]
F
Well, you know, I enjoyed rock climbing because there was a. There was always a goal. You know, it was a strenuous mental challenge to reach a goal. And it was the first time in my life where I actually thought I was good at something. Nothing. I actually thought, you know, this was a. A way to really test myself. And since I spent so much time doing it, got kicked out of school. I was very fortunate that one of the guys I met working at the restaurant, guy named Mike Gardner, who's still probably in Colorado, he worked at the Air Force Academy for a while. I ended up moving to Texas for a little bit to work in a restaurant. Sunbird sent me to Texas, but I called Mike one day and he said, hey, I've got a job for you. And I said, doing what? He said, rock climbing. I said, really? I said, where? He said, Interstate 70, Glenwood Canyon. We're building the highway, and we need rock climbers to help survey the cliffs. And so I called my dad on a Thursday, told him about it. He said, that's really good. Don't quit. You got a good job. I quit on Friday. Hopped in my Carmen Ghia and drove across Independence Pass, through Aspen into Glenwood Springs, and started working in the Gee whiz, the fall of 1977, on the. On the side of Glenwood Canyon.
- [39:47]
A
Well, I find this amusing because I am from the American south, and I can only imagine calling my family, telling them I had that job. Speaking of funny, I think it's pretty funny that after all those years in an Air Force town, you graduated college and wanted to become a pilot, but you joined the Navy. Why the Navy?
- [40:12]
F
Yeah, a lot of folks question me on that one. Well, when I was a senior in college, I worked for the mathematics department, and a guy named Dr. Jim Modir was the head of the department of mathematics at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. And I was working for Nancy Baggs, was an instructor. And unfortunately, Nancy just passed away this past year, but she was an instructor, and I used to tutor for her, and I would grade papers for her. And then Jim O' Deer gave me a student one day who needed a calculus tutor. And that guy happened to be a retired Navy captain named Richard Naucle. His family's from the Springs. He lived over on Temple and Gap Road just off Austin Bluffs. And I became his tutor. His calculus tutor. Well, he became my Navy tutor and he encouraged me. If he said, go see the movie Officer and Gentleman. As a college graduate, if you haven't been to ROTC or didn't go to the academy, this is how you enter in the Navy to become an officer. And so I went and saw the movie. I thought, yeah, it looks like fun. So I joined the Navy in January of 83 and entered officer Candidate School in November that same year.
- [41:15]
A
That's astronaut John Harrington, a UCCS alum who grew up in Colorado Springs as a citizen of the chickasaw nation. In 2002, he became the first enrolled member of a Native American tribe to go to space. When we come back, how his love for a favorite Colorado pastime helped with his historic spacewalk. You're with Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRCC on the heels of NASA's historic mission to the moon this week. Let's get back to my conversation with John Harrington. The UCCS alum made history in 2002 when he became the first enrolled member of a Native American tribe to ever go to space. He's a member of the Chickasaw Nation and grew up in Colorado Springs. He helped build the International Space Station aboard the space shuttle Endeavor.
- [42:05]
F
This view of John Harrington working in the vicinity of the UHF antenna, we'll
- [42:10]
A
hear how the sport of climbing helped him on his spacewalks. But first I asked him about the mementos he carried there to honor his native heritage. Tell us about what you chose and why you brought what you brought.
- [42:23]
F
I was told take two things and only two things that you can actually take out in flight and take a picture of. That's what the commander told me. And so I chose wisely. I think. The eagle feather was given to me by an elder with the American Indian Science and Engineering Society, a gentleman named Phil Lane Senior, who was born in the Standing Rock Reservation back at the turn of the century. And he was an elder with this this engineering society belonged to and he gave was beat in Mother Earth and Father sky and all the people of the world. And he also I was given a flute by a Cherokee friend who was a flute maker but also an engineer at the Kennedy Space center, worked for NASA. He's in Huntsville, Alabama. Got him, Jim Gillian. And so I took those two, two items with me. I actually took them out. I played the flute on orbit and I floated the feather and tried to take some good pictures of them. So I'd have, you know, evidence. This is what I had taken out. And one. Both those now are in the Smithsonian's Museum American Indian in Washington D.C. wow.
- [43:24]
A
Wonderful. So your mission was to build the International Space Station, and you personally spent nearly 20 hours on spacewalks. How did space change you?
- [43:36]
F
When you, when you step out of the hatch for the first time, you hang on kind of tight, you know, because it's about, turn 20 miles, turn 50 miles straight down. But you realize you're not going anywhere. You know, you're in this constant free fall around the Earth and you can't tell how fast you're going. And you realize if you, the, the tighter you hang on, the more tired you're going to get. And so you hang on very lightly and you move around. And so my rock climbing experience, climb onto the Front Range, climbing El Dorado, Boulder Canyon, climbing up in Turkey Rock and those places with that rock climbing experience directly related to doing a spacewalk. And I think what really happened was there was one time in the Veranda Space Station where I was told to do this. One of my, my mentors, Jerry Ross, who'd flown on the shuttle seven times, said, some point in your spacewalk, stop and just take it in. Don't take a picture of it. Just take in and appreciate where you happen to be. And that was on, on the end of the space station and looking out across the edge of the Earth, out into the, to the vastest universe. And was the first time in my life, but I felt like there was nothing between me and whatever else is out there. It was a very humbling experience, incredibly humbling experience, and very appreciative of the fact that I got to participate in something so unique because people came along in my life and encouraged me to head down that path. And I'm very fortunate.
- [44:52]
A
I've heard you say you don't think we could be alone in the universe. Can you share your thoughts on that?
- [45:00]
F
Sure. I get asked all the time, have I ever seen an alien? And I said, like, mean flying saucer aliens that sneak around, you know, San Luis Valley and, and flying saucers and stuff. I said, no, I've, I've never seen that. If you have, you know, more power to you. I've never personally witnessed something like that. I believe life exists in universe because the probability is so great. Given what we have learned from the Hubble Space Telescope and our view of the, of the universe, there's a really remarkable photo called the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. And it's a picture series of pictures that were taken over about a 10 day period at a point in the sky where there were very few stars. Think, well, why would you take a telescope and look at a place where there are no stars? Well, over this 10 day period, you let all the light come in from that distant part of the universe and you realize there's galaxies in this one little dot in the sky, there's 10,000 galaxies. Okay, well multiply that one dot over the entire visible universe and they say for like 10 to the 24th or 1 with 24 zeros after it. For every grain of sand on the surface of the Earth, there's a star in the visible universe. You want to put it in perspective and think, well then what's the probability about one of those grains of sand? There's a planet. And we know there are planets, exoplanets we've identified, I think about 6,000 of them so far. But there's way many more than that. The life can exist just like us. We are the stuff of stars. As Neil Degrasse Tyson says, we are made up of the, the elements that come from the exploding stars. Why can't, why are we so special? I just believe, just given the numbers and the probability of it, that we can't be alone in the universe in some way, shape or form. There has to be life forms out there. But since the universe is so vast, in our closest star I think is like 4.5 light years away. Aside from the sun, you know, closest one's the sun, but next one to that is about 4.5 light years. That's 70, 000 years away from us. At current propulsion, current speeds, it's a long ways away. And if I ever meet an alien, I'm gonna say, where'd you come from and how the heck did you get here? But I don't expect that's gonna happen anytime soon.
- [47:04]
A
From where you sit today and where you have sat over the course of your career, what's your big hope for the American space program?
- [47:12]
F
I like to just go back to the moon, go to Mars, but for the reason that, can we make life on Earth better? If life existed on Mars at one time, what happened to it? How can that directly apply to what we do here? How can we take care of our own planet if we can't take care of our own planet. We have no business going someplace else. So let's if we do explore, let's make sure what we do benefits life on Earth. Otherwise, we shouldn't be doing it.
- [47:36]
A
John Harrington, thanks for talking to us and thank you for your service.
- [47:41]
F
Thank you, Chandra. I appreciate it very much.
- [47:43]
A
NASA astronaut John Harrington, the first Native American to ever go into space, speaking with me last November. An enrolled member of the Chickasaw Nation, Harrington, who grew up in Colorado Springs, made history when he launched aboard the space shuttle endeavour on November 23, 2002. And speaking of Indigenous culture, the annual Denver March Powwow recently marked a major milestone. Five decades as one of the largest cultural gatherings of its kind in the Nation, the 50th anniversary event featured more than 1600 dancers and vendors from nearly 100 tribes across 38 states and three Canadian provinces. The powwow is said to trace back to the Denver Indian center, where organizers aspired to create a program that would bring Native youth and their families together. There's another powwow planned this weekend at the Colorado Springs Fine Arts center at Colorado College. If you'd like to learn more about it or other upcoming powwows, we'll have a link to a helpful event Tracker website@coloradomatters.org. La.