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Colorado Matters
July 3, 2026: Leave No Trace makes its mark; Indigenous beadwork as haute couture
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A
Fourth of July weekend and many of us will be outdoors. Perfect time to check in with the folks at Leave no Trace, the poop scooping wildlife respecting rock leaving Boulder nonprofit's been around for three decades now, so
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B
Leave no Trace, the ethic part really comes down to what you do when no one's watching. Our job is to empower people with smart skills, information to make the best decisions they can when they're outdoors.
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A
But are they greenwashing with sponsors that are automobile manufacturers than indigenous clothing and jewelry designers Stevens and Snyder?
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C
I know every bead in all of our pieces because I put it there and picked it out intentionally.
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D
Each piece is one of a kind, and yes, it is very much couture.
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A
This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Ryan Warner. Three words will guide our first conversation. Leave no Trace. The precise origin of that phrase isn't clear, but the nonprofit that has championed it is based in Boulder and is in its third decade. The executive director of the Leave no Trace center for Outdoor Ethics is Dana Watts. And, and naturally I met her outdoors. My goodness, I wish I met more guests on the banks of a river. Hi, Dana.
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B
Hi, Ryan.
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A
Where have you taken me?
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B
Here we are in beautiful Lyons, Colorado, sitting on the banks of the St. Vrain River.
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A
Crisscross applesauce together on these rocks. I only recently learned that Leave no Trace is based in Colorado and that it traces its roots and to an early wilderness research conference in Fort Collins. Let's go back. What was going on at that time?
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B
You're referring to the very early days of Leave no Trace, when it was more of just a concept. It was a phrase that was crafted by the Forest Service, United States Forest Service, and then it was adopted by other land management agencies like the Bureau of Land Management, the, the National Park Service. And this was in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Then a bunch of different entities got together within the outdoor industry, within the conservation community, and said we need to elevate this concept and make it more of an education program.
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A
I introduced you as executive director of the Leave no Trace center for Outdoor Ethics. What is the word ethics doing in that?
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B
So Leave no Trace, the ethic part really comes down to what you do when no one's watching. Our job is to empower people with skills, information to make the best decisions they can when they're outdoors.
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A
Seven principles are core to your mission. Pick one maybe that you think needs more attention.
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B
One of the most important is the simplest, and that's the first know before you go a lot of times people are ready for that adventure and they're off they go without really looking into what the weather conditions might be. Are there trails and are they marked if there are permits needed? So really being prepared allows a person to avoid a lot of issues that come up.
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A
What do you mean issues?
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B
I mean it can be some of the simplest things like you get out there in a blazing hot day and you don't have your sunscreen or you get out there and there's a thunderhead. And as we know in Colorado that happens in a matter of minutes and you're caught in a crazy rain, lightning, thunderstorm.
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A
But those are both about me, not the landscape.
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B
Great point. It's about your safety. But when your safety is compromised, then you make decisions that can be harmful to the land.
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A
Like what?
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B
So for instance, if you're out there and you need shelter, you might try to build shelter. If there's rain or you need warmth, you might try to look for and build fire in a place that really fire is not permitted.
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A
What a fascinating thing that preparing myself is a favor to the land. I expected you were going to say something like make sure to cart your poop out.
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B
Well, that's definitely a factor. And other things that can be more serious. If you are on a trail and you get lost and you get hurt and then search and rescue might have to be called in. So there's real expenses when it comes to safety and that kind of thing too. But you bring up poop and that's an interesting, always an interesting topic.
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A
I noticed on your website you publish a wealth of resources. Ethics cards for bouldering, canyoneering, geocaching, hunting. You have materials in Spanish, video courses. And you sell a book titled how to in the woods by Kathleen Meyer. It's in its fourth edition. Well done, Kathleen. Have you read it?
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B
I have, but it's been a long time and things have evolved since that first edition. Leave no Trace really was first meant for wilderness, backcountry areas. People getting on multi day trips into the backwoods. And what we realized 10, 15 years ago is that that's not the majority of the people. Most people, 85% of the population are getting out in parks like the one we're sitting in. They're getting out on trails in their backyard or state parks in their areas. And so it's a very different type of recreationist that we need to reach. And poop the issue of poop. Things have again evolved. So the recommendation, if you're going into the backcountry for multiple days Was and still largely is to dig a cat hole away from people, about 70 adult steps, 6 to 8 inches deep, you bury it and you move on. That's not really the recommendation, particularly in a front country environment where there are facilities. So if there are places to use latrines, facilities, use them.
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A
What about carting your own out?
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B
Yes. So in Colorado, where we have pristine environments, alpine environments, we have many river corridors, desert, we have a whole diverse ecosystem, most of the time it's recommended that you pack out your waste. And more and more people are getting comfortable with that. So it used to be a very taboo topic. More and more people who want to get outdoors, have an adventure. They are embracing that idea that the land can't tolerate human waste as much as it has in the the past. And packing it out is the solution.
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A
When places. Because you're hinting at this. When places are loved to death, land managers sometimes turn to ticketing, permitting shuttles. Do those go hand in hand with Leave no Trace, or is the restriction of access your nemesis? Is it a sign that people haven't left without a trace enough?
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B
The answer is both, of course. When we see more management of the land, that's for a reason. It's because more people are getting outside today, 350 million on the national parks. I think that overall visitation to public lands is something right around a billion. So it's a lot of people that want to connect with the land, which is a really good thing. But the stress that we see, combined with diminishing resources in terms of personnel, staffing, funding, these things have been cut. And we're seeing that in Colorado, 26% of employees with the public land management agencies have been cut. So those are very real issues that land managers are dealing with. And what we often say with Leave no Trace is, is we are not about policing the land. That's not our job. We're about empowering people again with skills and information so they can make better decisions when they're enjoying the outdoors. But sometimes, most times, you need both.
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A
Two of your main sponsors are Subaru and Winnebago, which, you know. These are companies that manufacture at least some gas guzzlers. Are you greenwashing?
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B
No. And here's why. Subaru has been a partner of ours for 25 years. And when we first entered into the partnership, we were very intentional about talking about values and what we needed and wanted from a partnership. And what they did as a company, they very much cater to an outdoor audience. They've been very, over time, have come to us to discuss different aspects of their advertising and how they are presenting the outdoors and their cars in the outdoors.
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A
Wait, that's fascinating. What has changed with a little nudge from Leave no Trace?
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B
Yeah, well, it's taken time. Even the old pictures that they used to have of the car driving right up to the water, setting up camp and ready to go, and it looks beautiful. But what we know is the impact on a riparian or water river area can be super damaging, obviously, if you have a car there. But if you don't explain that or you're just promoting that to, you know, the broader public, people might embrace that and just go. So we've worked with them for many years to really look at and review their advertising to improve particularly the visuals. So that's one part, but the other part is that they have allowed us to reach. And we're a nonprofit based in Boulder, Colorado. We reach millions of people because of their support and because we're able to take our message, our training, our outreach all across the nation, because we're driving their vehicles around.
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A
I wonder if you sometimes feel like you're bailing out the Titanic with a teaspoon. And the reason I ask that is, in the face of climate change, what does it matter if I trammel a wildflower? Does that make sense?
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B
It totally makes sense. It's maybe a twofold answer. Your stepping on vegetation, a wildflower, or whatever it might be, doesn't seem. Seem like a big deal. But again, when you look at the number of people who are also then maybe stepping on the same or close proximity wildflower over and over, it's the cumulative effect.
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A
I need to think of myself as part of a population, and that's a
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B
really important part of it. You are a piece of a much bigger ecosystem. And the second piece is how we relate to climate change or. Or affect climate change. So Leave no Trace is very much a standard of care, if you will, for the outdoors, and it's for people. And it's a very profound way that people can affect the outdoors.
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A
Yes, yes. In other words, I feel, in a way almost paralyzed by the notion of climate change. Like, oh, my God, what do I do? This is something I can do.
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B
This is actually absolutely something you can do and every individual can do. That's one part of it.
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D
Who's this?
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B
Dolly.
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A
Dolly. That's a nice name, Dolly. After Dolly Parton, I hope.
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B
Oh, Dolly's wet.
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A
Have a good day. Dolly's a dog.
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B
Yes. Right. There she goes. A wet dog. The second part of it. And this is interesting is one of the things that we do as an organization is research. What we looked at a couple years ago was this spillover effect. So when a person knows Leave no Trace embraces the seven principles, understands what that means, they don't just turn off and on a light switch. They have that ethic when they're in their home environment, their home community, they are two times more likely to practice environmentally responsible behaviors. And they that is a direct effect on climate change.
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A
I was fascinated by the number of resources on Leave no Trace's website that had to do with the home front. I thought this is mission creep. But you're saying it's the best kind of creep.
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B
That's right. And we are very intentional about staying in our lane and mission creep. And as you can imagine, we've been asked to do any number of things, including more work on climate. And we have been very deliberate about staying with our principles and how people can play a critical role in protecting the outdoor world by practicing Leave no Trace. But that doesn't mean that we don't also play a role in this much larger environmental picture.
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A
Want to name a recent win for Leave no Trace, and then maybe something that feels undone.
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B
Yes. Wins for Leave no Trace or a recent win is. We have been working on a designation called gold standard. Basically, it is the pinnacle of an area, a site that embraces Leave no Trace in a whole variety of ways. So they have signage, they have trained volunteers, they have staff that are trained at the highest level of Leave no Trace. They have educational materials in a visitor center. And so we were down at Cheyenne Mountain State park right outside Colorado Springs, providing that gold standard designation to. It's the sixth state park in Colorado. So Colorado is on the forefront. They are looking at system wide, all the parks and how they can get to this gold standard.
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A
And then what leaves you frustrated where you're thinking, I need to reach these people?
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B
Well, in so many ways, like you said, we've just scratched the surface. I mean, there's so many people who are getting outside today. And that again, I can't emphasize how important that is for so many reasons. Health, mental health, physical health, adventure, solitude, whatever the case might be. People need nature, but they also need to understand what it means to protect nature when they are enjoying the outdoors in whatever way that means. And there's a lot of people. So it's just a. It's a capacity and scale thing. There's a lot of people to reach, and we're moving as fast as we can, but we've still scratched the surface.
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A
What's something you've learned or I wonder if there's a moment where you've thought, oh, I didn't live up to my own organization's mission on this one.
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B
You know, I was thinking about that on my drive over here back to the principles. So one of the trickier I think for I'm going to say the majority of people is leave what you find. And so when you're out at a beautiful beach or you're on a are
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A
you going to prevent me from taking the seashell? The seashell.
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B
You see where I'm going or you know, you're a rock collector like many of us are, especially the cute heart shaped rocks. It's hard. It's hard to leave what you find. I think the biggest thing that we want to stress is don't remove the wow for other people.
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A
Dana, thank you so much for meeting me here and choosing such a brilliant spot.
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B
Ryan, thank you. It's been a real pleasure.
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A
Dana Watts heads the Leave no Trace center for Outdoor Ethics in Boulder and the nonprofit's now in its third decade. We met at Bone park in Lyons. Still to come, indigenous designers and dancers Stevens and Snyder, fresh off their residency at the Denver Art Museum and a shout out from Vogue. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News. It's Colorado Matters from CPR News. I'm Ryan Warner. They're probably the most famous shoes in the world.
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C
There's no place like home.
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A
There's no place like home. The ones Dorothy clicks together to leave Oz. Well, indigenous designers Adrian Stevens and Sean Snyder created a moccasin version of the ruby slippers. This couple may be best known for their beaded Birkin bags, which Vogue highlighted. We met them at the Denver Art Museum when they got big news about the shoes. In reaction, Snyder adapted the movie line saying, there's no place like my reservation.
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C
There's no place like my res. You click your heels a couple times in these and it takes you right to home.
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A
Who's the wicked witch in this story?
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C
Oh, gosh, I don't know. I have a couple in my life.
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A
We won't go into that, but we will go into what is the work involved in these moccasins which are so brilliant they are almost blinding.
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C
Right. So they're on traditional smoked buckskin right here and they're beaded with two rows all the way around. And then we adorned in a rhinestone line with 500 carats of actual ruby gemstones. Each stone is about 0.5 of a carat. And then I wanted to use the sequins in it so that we could keep the ruby, traditional ruby slipper look.
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A
And they've been acquired by the Denver Art Museum, thanks to a private collector.
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C
Yes, as of today. And so it's been really good news and good news having you here to share with you that these just got acquired. And we are so thrilled to have these part of the permanent collection here at DAM the good news for you
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A
is that they're not size 13, so I won't walk off with them.
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C
Okay. Yes, Good. But if you want something custom, let us know. We can do size 13.
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A
I want to know how far backed up you are with requests, because as you get better and better known, that list is gonna get longer and longer.
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C
Yes. We continue to add more clients to our list. And, you know, we have pre orders on our beaded Birkins as of now. So it's really exciting to be able to continue to create all of this great artwork that we're so proud of.
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A
Sean Snyder there, who uses they, them, pronouns. They and Adrian Stevens were in residency at DAM that has concluded, but their work will be on display come August in reimagined galleries that recognize our region's indigen nations. We met at the museum as they were packing up from that earlier residency.
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C
Oh, just getting the dress fixed, but she seems to be falling out of the dress at this point.
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D
Yeah, she needs a little bit of lift now.
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A
She is not a living, breathing person. This is on a mannequin.
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D
Yes. This is our plume woman dress that we created from an original design and debuted this last October at the indigenous met Gala in. the Autry Museum in Los Angeles. Plume meaning feather, plume meaning eagle feather. And it's really an homage to how we decorate our women in becoming of age ceremonies with plumes, whether that be in a sunrise dance or a canalta.
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A
Tell me about canalta.
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C
It's really a coming of age, so having a young woman adorned with a side plume or back plumes, and that's where the dress form really came about. We wanted to give this whole dress the look of an actual plume.
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A
Yeah, I know that there are banks, for instance, that will keep materials like eagle feathers, for instance, for indigenous use. I have to think that some of these materials are not exactly the ones you pop down to, you know, a craft store to get.
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C
No, not at all. But these ones are ostrich feathers. But yes, we actually go through the National Eagle Repository generally for all of our eagle feathers that we use and wear for all of our dancewear ceremonial use, for sure.
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A
And that's right here in Denver, I think.
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C
Oh, yes, it is. They do have one of the main hubs here, I believe. So most of our birds come through this area right here.
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A
Does that feel like shopping? Exactly. No.
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D
Because you can spend half your life being on this list waiting for something very specific.
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A
What are you waiting for that you have not been able to get your designer hands on?
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C
Right now, just as a dancer, I want a full wing set in black and white. So just waiting on the list as patiently as possible.
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A
I am curious, because you both dance, how that informs your sense of the clothing you make, because there is an inherent, I have to think, understanding of movement, given that these are moves you've made.
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C
Yes. For both of us growing up as dancers, we kind of learned early on just what feels comfortable. And then creating that early on as our teens and we moving on to our young adulthood, making our own regalia and regalia for lots of other people. So we really learned and honed our skills as craftsmen and tailoring and making our dancewear functional.
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A
Were you your first clients?
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C
Yeah, truly, Me and my sisters and my whole family were our own first clientele. Basically.
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A
This is do it yourself.
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D
Yes. It's very much. It's not a craft. It's very much create the regalia for yourself. And. And we grew up.
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A
Wait, why do you say not a craft?
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D
Because it's a fine art. To me, crafting is a downplay of what you're actually creating. Because what this beadwork means in creating something so symbolic, representing your family, will eventually be passed down to next generations.
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C
You're next generation to inherit. So you create your family legacy, and it continues to dance on.
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A
So if there are, for instance, families that understand the notion of handing down a painting that that has been on multiple walls, that's how you see these pieces?
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D
Oh, absolutely.
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A
When I look at the beadwork, my first reaction is, how do you have the patience?
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C
Patience is a skill that you learn, I believe. And I learned it through beadwork process. So it really taught me about myself and what I'm capable of creating and capable of pursuing in a big way. So I think patience is a learned skill that comes with the type of art that we create.
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A
Oh, this is interesting to hear. Patience is learned as opposed to something that's inherent in us. So were you impatient when you started?
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C
Oh, absolutely. I'm an Aries, so total fire sign. If it wasn't working, I would scrap it immediately. But, yeah, it was something I really had to sit down and work with because not just for myself, but to use it as a business person and my entrepreneurship, I needed to. To learn, create, and put the time into it.
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A
Are you patient?
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D
No. No. Because when you have the vision already created in your mind and you already see the work that you're ready to create, you have that impatience of wanting it to become realistic and become what it's meant to be right in front of you.
- [23:06]
C
We are both incredibly visual. So, like, I can see the design as soon as I'm creating it or describing it and taking. Taking in what person wants or for their tribal affiliation, colors that they want. I can immediately see something in my mind and just know exactly where I want to go with the project or what I'm creating for.
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A
But I can understand the impatience of what comes in between because you have the vision, and then you just want to bring it into the world. We are in your residency studio, which is just off of a gallery. This is actually your final day in it. People have wandered by. It's a little bit like being in a fishbowl.
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D
Yes. Some have described that it is like being in a fishbowl, but for us, it's, you know, an actual insight into how we create the process of creating. And then also seeing us work on pieces of work on our desks. So just.
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A
Yeah. So there are two benches over here. Two tables where you each are working. There's a little bit of distance between them. You don't work on top of each other, I guess.
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C
No. And this is reminiscent of our home studio. We have dueling side tables like this. So we kind of created. When we came into the studio space, they said, make it your own. So we made it as homey as possible so that we could relax and create and just, you know, get our minds open to creating.
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A
I like that. He said dueling. Is there a little competition in this?
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D
Yeah, we definitely push each other to create quickly and reach a timeline that is suitable for our art. But as far as competing, like, artistically, no. We are very much yin and yang when it comes to color schemes, to design aesthetics, to the various motifs that we've worked with in the past. Also giving each other the space to sit with our thoughts and our creative process. And often that distance will allow us to create a new idea.
- [24:54]
C
Also with that same competitive space really drives us to keep creating as much as we can, because we're both. We grew up as dancers, competitive dancers, and naturally, we're both very athletic, so we just are totally into competition. And Anything that we do, we want to be the best at.
- [25:11]
A
It's interesting to be athletic and then to have an art form and frankly, a day job that it involves movement, but it also involves a lot of sitting.
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D
Yeah, we often sit and focus and hone in on our skill and our craftsmanship. That's something we really pride ourselves on, is the level of craftsmanship that we put into each beaded item. Sometimes that even means taking part of something that's not coming together as well as you had imagined it up here and having to sometimes cut beadwork out.
- [25:43]
A
Oh, no. Oh, God. It's your editing.
- [25:46]
D
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
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C
And to that other point, we never wanted to be those tired artists or let our art take from us physically. So we really are those artists that tell everybody, you know, take time for yourself, do your stretches, drink your water, go on your run. You know, get your body moving before you sit and create for that many hours. It can be taxing.
- [26:06]
D
So usually you'll find the two of us every morning in a routine of doing our stretches, hitting our few mile runs in and not actually entering the studio until, like, 10:30 in the morning, because we're making sure that we take care of ourselves and so that we can continue to create and so that our art doesn't consume us, but we can control our work. Life balance.
- [26:26]
A
Oh, gosh. Your generation is so healthy with boundaries.
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D
I don't think we're too far off in age.
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A
Well, you okay? You look positively youthful. And my guests are indigenous designers Adrian Stevens and Sean Snyder. We met at the Denver Art Museum, which has acquired their painstaking ruby moccasins. Colorado Matters continues in this next half hour with the commitment of choosing each and every bead by hand. Plus, is this couture you're hearing music by indigenous flutist R. Carlos Nakai. I'm Ryan Warner. You're with CPR News and krcc. You're with Colorado Matters. From CPR News and krcc, I'm Ryan Warner. Let's return to the Denver Art Museum and to indigenous designers Sean Snyder and Adrian Stevens. Dam just acquired one of their pieces, and following their recent residency, they're part of a show opening in August. They may be best known for their beaded Birkin bags, which v Vogue highlighted. What is the longest each of you has spent on a single piece? I want people to understand the investment here.
- [27:49]
D
I would have to say it's going to be my grass dance suit. We created this, started in 2018. It took a little over nine months to create but just the technical difficulty that we. We used within this piece, as you can see, they're splitting backgrounds with the design on top of it. So creating that balance of making a sure. And not all beads are uniform, so you have to definitely search for the right fitment of bead so that the design maintains its integrity.
- [28:16]
A
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So, for instance, the background or the. The anchoring color is this maybe white off white. You're telling me that even within and among the white beads, they are not all consistently the same shape. So you're. You're picking based on just, like, the proper fit, Almost like you were building a brick wall.
- [28:40]
C
Yes. Yeah. White is our. Primarily our background color. But you're right, with beads and beadwork, not everything is exactly uniform. So we, as artists, we bead, I like to say, in piles and not off the string. And beadworkers will understand that. But controversial opinion. I go with piles, and I like to pick up every bead that is. Is used in our artwork. And I like to say I know every bead in all of our pieces because I put it there and picked it out intentionally.
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A
This is fascinating. It's not just that you picked up white beads. It's that every single white bead and yellow and red and blue. I'm sounding like Joseph in the amazing Technica and purple and honey voucher, but each one is chosen with intention.
- [29:24]
C
Yes. Yes, it is. And. And white primarily used as our background color as a medium, because within our tribes, we believe this white represents the sky. It's a background, so it's something that you can envision anything in. And so we put our floral motifs, our geometric motifs, and you can just look into the sky and imagine anything you want to create.
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A
The notion that this took nine months just naturally brings up the idea that this is a baby for you.
- [29:48]
D
Yes. Actually the birthing process of creating it all. And, you know, many hands also helped with this within family. Close, close friends, because often we were working on the beadwork while traveling and still attending powwows, and I was wearing my older set of beadwork, but all of my friends and family and my partner Sean, knew how important it was to get a new set of beadwork, because these are once in a lifetime items. And so to have a full, brand new set and to set the time aside to create, everybody had a hand in this.
- [30:23]
A
That is to say, I'm looking at a piece that multiple pairs of hands helped with.
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D
Yeah. And that even came down to just filling out a background. So as you can see, there's a floral motif with the white background. The floral was done first, and so just having extra friends come in and say, hey, how can I help? And I was like, here, you're a skilled beadwork artist, and thank you for taking time. Even if it was just to fill just a small section. That saved me a day or half an afternoon to have that kind of support. You know, it really does take a village.
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A
It takes a village. But do people roll their eyes when they see you coming, like, oh, they're gonna ask again for help a little bit?
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C
Not anymore.
- [31:06]
D
Not so much more. So much. Siblings? Yeah. They're like, no, well, I can't. I'm kind of occupied right now. So, yeah, it definitely does cross their mind every time when we're in a little bit of a crunch and want to meet a deadline. But, you know, it doesn't happen very often. Hasn't for quite a few years.
- [31:24]
C
I mean, for us, our artwork is constant, so it's something we're going to continue to practice. And, you know, as we expand as a brand, as a company, we want to continue to bring in people, outside help and more hands to, you know, our company to expand and employ other people. So. And bring along other artisans with us.
- [31:42]
A
That is an incredible point, because when I think, for instance, I don't know, I'm going to throw out a brand like an Hermes or something, you know, you've got all of the leather workers, and you've got the folks who design the scarves and things in haute couture in high fashion. Is there enough paid, revered, celebrated indigenous talent already, or do you have to nurture that and bring it with you?
- [32:12]
C
There are. There are a lot of indigenous artists from across all of Turtle island, and they come from different communities. And you see some of those contemporary works here in Denver Arts right now, and it's, you know, it's really nice to add our voices to that. But, yes, I believe there are plenty of artisans that are specially technically skilled in beadwork, and they come from everywhere, all walks of life, all kinds of ages, and turning the artwork from a craft to an actual art so that we can get people to understand that these people should be working at a higher level and paid at the higher level, and all of our artwork should be valued at that higher level as well.
- [32:53]
A
Is this couture?
- [32:54]
D
Absolutely, 100%. When you look at the quality of beads that are used within our work, when you're looking at the time that it. It takes to create and design Our work. And then, of course, to see it come to life. Yes, each piece is one of a kind. You'll only get one. And yes, it is very much couture.
- [33:13]
A
If Ralph Lauren called or Hermes called, would you pick up the phone?
- [33:18]
C
Oh, we would, yes.
- [33:20]
D
And we have answered the call.
- [33:22]
A
Well, maybe we should talk about Vogue. Should we talk about Vogue in the back?
- [33:25]
C
Yes, absolutely.
- [33:26]
D
Let's do it.
- [33:27]
C
Vogue was such a turning point for us and to have Christian Allaire, you know, write an article that was so impactful for us as a brand and as young artists. To celebrate our win with our first Birkin bag. It was, you know, the beadwork and to celebrate our technical ability. It was amazing and life changing.
- [33:45]
A
The beaded Birkin bag, a $30,000 item that landed Sean Snyder and Adrian Stevens in Vogue. We'll talk more about it after the break. Plus appreciation versus appropriation in fashion. I'm Ryan Warner and you're with Colorado Matters from CPR News. You're back with Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Ryan Warner. Designers and dancers Adrian Stevens and Sean Snyder identify as two spirit and indigiqueer. These expert beat artists were just in residence at the Denver Art Museum. Their pieces go back on display Aug. 1 as part of a resident showcase at DAM. Stevens is a descendant of Northern Ute, Shoshone, Bannock and San Carlos Apache tribes. Snyder is a citizen of the Navajo nation and a descendant of the Southern Ute tribe. We spoke at the museum. The notion that's so powerful to me is the Birkin bag is this symbol. You know, it's very European to me. Maybe it's colonial. And then to put the beadwork on it is such a freaking statement. It's like de and recolonizing something. Am I saying too much about it?
- [35:19]
D
No, that is exactly what we were trying to accomplish. And I'm glad that that's how you received it without even us sharing. But yes, we want to be a luxury leather good company, just like Hermes, just like Louis Vuitton. So, yes, stepping into, you know, high end leather goods while still incorporating our beadwork and traditional designs. I know it shattered a glass ceiling.
- [35:46]
A
Is there a risk of getting too far from the roots or, or, or of bastardizing it or watering it down? Do you have fears around that?
- [35:58]
C
No, not necessarily. For us doing the Hermes Birkin bag, it was. We were inviting our community to see our indigenous artworks as couture items, as handmade, very luxury good items, and to encourage other artists to think of their work that way.
- [36:15]
A
Yes. This is really affirming your point of getting away from the idea of craft, which is like, maybe a little below belittling or isn't that cute that you scrapbook and driving this conversation, that this is not only deeply familial, but it belongs on a Runway.
- [36:33]
D
Yes, it does belong on a Runway. And we've been blessed to have sent a handful of bags with our own men's collection that we debuted last year at the Santa Fe Fashion week, Swaya Fashion Week. And with that, we created 13 couture looks for our gentlemen. But we also sent them down the Runway with a handful of beaded Birkin bags.
- [36:55]
C
And it was such an undertaking. It took four months to create all five bags along with the entire collection. And we about drove ourselves crazy just getting it all together.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah. On that timeline.
- [37:05]
C
Yes, absolutely. It was a high pressure situation because the deadline to get to the Runway was a stressful one.
- [37:12]
A
Are you patient with. With each other?
- [37:14]
C
Yes, yes, yes.
- [37:16]
D
Oh, well done.
- [37:18]
C
Well, we don't have patience for a lot of things, but each other is where we give each other grace.
- [37:22]
D
If we weren't patient, I don't think we would have made it to 14 years right now.
- [37:27]
A
Congratulations on 14 years. I do want to talk about you both being two spirit, what that means to you, that term and that aspect of the representation.
- [37:41]
D
So I always like to tell people when they ask, you know, what does it mean to be two spirit? And I always tell people it's about spirituality, not physicality, not about your personal anatomy, but about the spirit that you carry with you. And Shawn and I both have that feminine and masculine spirit, and we both embody and embrace those spirits, and so do our family members, especially when it comes time to different ceremonies that. That take place back home at our reservations where we get that acknowledgement from our women in allowing us to participate in women only rituals or ceremonies or protocols. And same thing goes for masculine protocols rituals. So, yeah, I always tell everyone being two spirit is only specific to being indigenous and native American. And only can us two spirit talk about the. What it means to connect femininity to
- [38:32]
A
masculinity and to move in. Well, I say both circles, but in many circles. And how do you define two spirit for yourself?
- [38:39]
C
Well, for me, I am non binary. My pronouns are they, them. And I'm enrolled in Navajo Nation. And within our culture, we have other understandings of what gender is, and we actually have four genders.
- [38:51]
A
I was gonna say the two. Yeah, the non binary thing is sort of Inherent.
- [38:54]
C
Right. And so for us to kind of explain it to my family, they just got it because of our cultural understanding. And, you know, not all tribes are created the same or have that same understand cultural understanding of different genders. And, you know, I'm really blessed to come from an area and our people that really have a more accepting nature.
- [39:14]
A
I'm glad to hear that, by the way. It's not a given, you know.
- [39:16]
D
Right. And so something that was recognized within my family before I even really was still in my area of self discovery and my identity as a young teen, it was my aunts that actually embraced it and saw it already within me. And it was during a certain protocol and I was just there to help. And then my aunts and my grandmas said, well, we need you to do this specific task. And I said, but that's for women. And they said, we know who you are, we accept you, we receive you, and we acknowledge it in the best way possible.
- [39:54]
A
I want to get beyond protocol. What were you doing?
- [39:57]
D
It was actually a grandmother's funeral and it came down to the dressing and wrapping her in blankets. And I was just there to carry all of this stack full of blankets. And it was at that time when it came to down to the last few blankets and they wanted me to participate. And it was. It was a really pivotal moment for me and self reflection and saying, wow, I've kind of been in the closet. But also my family is acknowledging and seeing the respect that I have for protocol and carrying that knowledge and keeping it sacred.
- [40:33]
A
What a profound rite of passage to have that moment occur. I love it because my experience with some of my family members was to come out and then have them say duh.
- [40:43]
C
That was actually my experience. I came out when I was 15 and I wrote it in a letter to my family and then left to go stay with some friends and came home the next day. Let them process it. But it was a very much a good conversation and a kind of a duh moment for me.
- [41:01]
A
So how much is that two spirit identity displayed or inherent to the work or do people make too much of it?
- [41:10]
C
I think it is inherent in everything that we do. We create. When we're dancing, we're two spirit. When we're out there participating in our cultural activities, our powwows, we're there as two spirit. And, you know, it's been so impactful to, you know, have our story be out there so publicly to.
- [41:26]
A
You were also the subject of a documentary, by the way, Specifically your dad's.
- [41:30]
C
Yes. And that Was sweetheart dancers. And we did a documentary where we documented the two years that we went to participate in the salmon well sweetheart competition. And it was a huge, huge competition. And for us to go out there as a couple dressed alike and everything, we were met with backlash immediately. And that first year we were disqualified and could come on the other side and return the next year and be celebrated with third place and get the rules changed. That documentary went on to showcase to so many youth and to so many of our peers and our elders that said, oh my gosh, this is what we should be fighting for. And I think that was such a turning point for our own two spirit community and our queer community, our indigiqueer community, to see themselves.
- [42:16]
A
One thought I had when I looked at some of these pieces was the history of co opting these looks. How Hollywood has done that. You know, I was getting like Cher vibes for a second when she did that. What was that song? Anyway? But the notion that for so long in the central spotlight were inauthentic versions of something that is. Is deeply authentic, does that make sense?
- [42:48]
C
Yeah, I think a lot of our American pop culture likes to cosplay in a way of, you know, our native indigenous cultures. And it's been that way for decades. And it's really nice to see the change in the past, probably 10, 20 years to kind of reclaim that identity, Especially through pop culture, media, and now fashion, where we are at the forefront for our community.
- [43:11]
A
And the fashion question then makes me wonder if I wanted to don one of your pieces As a deeply unindigenous person. Is that a space you want to create for people? Because I think a lot of folks outside a particular culture who might appreciate a fashion concept or a fashion feeling don't know whether they should wear it, you know?
- [43:34]
D
Right. And that's been a big, strong talking point, you know, culture appreciation versus appropriation.
- [43:40]
C
Yes.
- [43:41]
A
And, you know, where is the line?
- [43:43]
D
Yeah. And I always tell people when you support an indigenous artist, you're also purchasing a piece of their story, a piece of their identity that you're able to go share with other non indigenous people and say, I bought this from a Navajo artist, a u artist, and I'm proudly wearing it, and you should also support their work. And where the other side is. Oh, I created this out of inspiration. Therefore, you then took something and now are appropriating it.
- [44:10]
A
Okay. So the provenance of it matters, for one, the story you tell maybe when you're asked about it, and then maybe you don't do that on Halloween.
- [44:20]
D
Yeah, exactly. Because Halloween, and that's how we always refer to our regalia, often gets mis termed as costumes. Because a costume are like for Halloween, when you're pretending to be something that you're not. And that's why we call them our regalia and not our costumes.
- [44:38]
A
Do you have the same read on this?
- [44:40]
C
Yes, absolutely. Which is why we created our everyday jewelry line to make it sure that people from all walks of life could appreciate and, you know, wear something from us and a little beaded piece, a little beaded pendant, whatever it is that they enjoy.
- [44:54]
D
A bracelet as you.
- [44:55]
A
I love you. Your lightning bolt.
- [44:57]
D
Oh, thank you.
- [44:58]
A
So you have a metal one and then you have a beaded one.
- [45:01]
D
Yes, and it's a double stack playing on our brand, Stevens and Snyder, which is also our.
- [45:06]
A
Oh, because the lightning bolt is also an S. Yes. See how quick I am? It's real quick.
- [45:11]
D
Yes.
- [45:13]
A
Okay. Well, those are helpful pointers. Are you afraid of fame? Because I feel like y' all are on your way.
- [45:21]
C
Oh, I appreciate that. No, not afraid of it at all. I think with our documentary, it really pushed us into the light of controversy and it's something that we don't shy away from anymore.
- [45:33]
D
What we're often told from our family members, especially our mothers, is, you know, creating this representation. Because a mantra that Sean and I have always lived by is create the iconography that you didn't have growing up.
- [45:44]
A
Right. The thing you craved, seeing, or didn't even know was possible to see. Maybe mainstream.
- [45:50]
D
Yes. And then our moms remind us, you know, you guys shattering the glass ceiling and breaking through in so many spaces, it's not about you. It's about you're kicking down the door for those to come in behind you.
- [46:03]
A
Oh, so do you find yourselves checking yourselves when it becomes a little bit about the ego? Because you must have. I mean, we have egos.
- [46:11]
D
I think we have confidence more than an ego. You know, I can withstand and take the brunt of any controversy, any conflict, as opposed to so many of our two spirit youth back home struggle with that confidence or having that sense of security for themselves and, you know, for our two spirit youth. We suffer from the highest rates of suicide still to this day. So that's why we do the work that we do. That's why we create and break into the spaces that we are in.
- [46:40]
A
And I see how grounding that is and how much it would take you away from the ego. Does that mean saying no sometimes to things?
- [46:48]
C
Absolutely. It means saying no. I can't tell you the amount of times we've turned down campaigns, different brand deals, because they want something performative. They want something that they can't, you know, use that we shouldn't allow them to use. And that's a part of us being
- [47:02]
A
that's perhaps ceremonial or.
- [47:04]
C
Exactly. Or just representative deeply of our cultural roots and, you know, may be disrespectful to pair with that. So we have to be the ones policing ourselves so that we know where to go with us.
- [47:16]
D
Yeah. And it's definitely keeping our, like, our eagle feathers sacred. There was a campaign that wanted us to bring our traditional regalia, but that company, their product doesn't align with everyday Native American culture. But we wanted to be representative in it because we. It was their pride campaign, and they were wanting to acknowledge two spirit community. But in that campaign, we weren't going to bring our eagle feathers to the photo shoot or we're gonna just bring
- [47:43]
C
our unbridled fabulosity to it all.
- [47:46]
A
With the eagle feathers, as we've previously discussed, I mean, are just on a different level in terms of their sacred nature, the difficulty of getting ahold of them and the places you'd want to display them.
- [47:57]
D
Yes, exactly. And we want to respect that because that also falls back on our family, because if we were to do that, people would hit us from our own communities and our own families and say, you guys know better. You guys know that you shouldn't be taking things there or doing such things that, you know, we've been raised to respect.
- [48:18]
A
So you hold yourselves accountable. But you got people watching.
- [48:20]
C
Yes, absolutely.
- [48:22]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much for having us in this studio. And good luck in the return to your studio.
- [48:28]
C
Yes. Thank you so much.
- [48:29]
D
Yes, we appreciate having you,
- [48:35]
A
Adrian Stevens and Shawn Snyder, the powerhouse behind the indigenous brand. Stevens and Snyder see their works at the Denver Art Museum August 1st. And that's Colorado Matters for now, with thanks to our team. Tyler Bender, Carl Bielick, Anthony Cotton, Pete
- [48:53]
D
Kramer, Andrea Dukakis, Zan Huckpechone, Matt Herz, Tom Hess, Pedro Lumbragno, Shane Rumsey, Hayley
- [49:03]
C
Sanchez, Chandra Thomas Whitfield.
- [49:06]
A
And I'm Ryan Warner. You've heard music by R. Carlos Nakai this hour. And you're with CPR News and KR
- [49:16]
C
sa.