March 16, 2026: When does surveillance tech cross the line?; Ryan tries out the state's first robot massage

Summary

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Colorado Matters – March 16, 2026

When Does Surveillance Tech Cross the Line? & Ryan Tries Colorado’s First Robot Massage

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Ryan Warner and Chandra Thomas Whitfield tackle two timely Colorado stories. The first segment dives deep into the rapid proliferation of surveillance technology, specifically automated license plate readers like Flock cameras, and the growing legal and ethical debate around their use. Experts, lawmakers, and citizens weigh in on whether these technologies improve public safety or dangerously erode privacy. The episode then shifts gears as Ryan Warner visits Sway Wellness Spa in Larimer Square to experience the state’s first AI-powered robot massage.

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1. Surveillance Technology in Colorado: Flock Cameras, Privacy, and Policy

(00:04 – 36:37)

Main Theme

The segment examines the rise of automated surveillance, focusing on Flock cameras. Hosts and guests discuss public safety benefits, mounting privacy concerns, and new legislative proposals aiming to regulate or restrict law enforcement access and data sharing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

How It Started: A Personal Story

• Krisanna Elser’s Experience (01:24)
  • Subjected to a police visit based on Flock camera data mistakenly connecting her to a package theft.
  • Elser’s own car cameras provided proof of her innocence, highlighting tech’s double-edged nature.
  • Memorable quote:
    “We have cameras everywhere in that town. You can't get a breath of fresh air in or out without us knowing.” – Sgt. Jamie Millman (02:08; repeated at 03:37)
  • Deepening concern:
    “It was growing concerning when he asked if I drove through Bomar often, and I said, no, I don't. And for him to immediately turn to the accusation of lying...” – Krisanna Elser (as retold by Bente Birkeland, 03:07)

How Flock and ALPRs Work

• How They Differ From Older Technologies (07:25)
  • Unlike previous traffic cameras, Flock/ALPR systems network nationwide, enabling rapid, searchable tracking of vehicles and their movements.
  • AI enables constant, detailed data extraction and near-real-time search capabilities. (08:57)
  • “These networks... compile all that into a big, giant database that makes it incredibly easy to look up. Hey, did any camera in the whole network... see this car? And when.” – Andy Kenney (07:38)

Public Safety Successes vs. Civil Liberties Fears

• Police Praise (09:32)
  • Flock data credited with solving serious crimes (stolen vehicles, homicides, kidnappings).
  • Cross-jurisdictional tracking especially valued in regions bordering multiple states. (10:14)
• Backlash and Outcry (11:19, 12:58)
  • Increasing public protests at city councils and town halls.
  • Concerns about federal agencies using data for immigration enforcement or out-of-state abortion investigations (13:47).
  • “People are scared that their private information about where they are going and what they are doing is going to be shared and shared to their detriment.” – Sen. Judy Amabile (00:11, 19:08)

Data Sharing and Trust Issues

• Discovery of National Sharing (15:18)
  • Denver unwittingly opted in to a national search function, eroding public and council trust.
  • Flock promoted a pilot to give immigration authorities access to local data. (15:18–16:32)
  • “It turned out that Denver actually had opted in, apparently by accident, into this national Flock search function...” – Andy Kenney (15:18)

The Policy Debate

• Senate Bill 70: Guardrails on Surveillance (18:32)

  • Proposes warrant requirements for most database searches.
  • 72-hour leeway for accessing recently reported crimes.
  • Emergency exceptions exist but are rare, according to law enforcement. (22:43)
  • “Just like you can't search somebody's cell phone data, you can't go into their home. There are lots of instances when you need a warrant.” – Judy Amabile (19:49)

• Concerns from Police (21:53)

  • Law enforcement argues limitations would reduce effectiveness by impeding real-world investigations, particularly for gathering pre-probable-cause evidence.

• Civil Liberties Perspective (24:31)

  • “The Constitution and its protections are not designed for maximum efficiency, even for the sake of law enforcement. They are designed to protect liberty.” – Alastair Whitney, Institute for Justice (24:49)

• Legal Precedents & The ‘Mosaic’ Theory (27:26)

  • Supreme Court’s stance on GPS tracking raised similar privacy mosaic questions.
  • “When the government can track your vehicle history back months or years through these databases, any reasonable expectation of privacy is dead. And it's not the role of the government to have a God's eye view of its citizens.” – Sen. Linda Zamora Wilson (29:26)
  • Case law lags behind tech: public tracking is legal, but persistent, networked government surveillance raises new constitutional questions (26:16, 27:58).

Politics, Policy, and the Road Ahead

• Bipartisan, Yet Divisive (31:11)

  • Bill garners crossing-the-aisle support and opposition: Dem. and GOP lawmakers, law enforcement, DAs, fire chiefs, EMTs weigh in.

• Biggest Hurdle Might Be Cost (32:09)

  • Implementation estimated at $2 million/year, a challenge in a time of budget deficits.

Memorable Moments and Quotes

• “It brings up the point with just so much surveillance, Flock is one part of a, dare I say, mosaic of surveillance.” – Bente Birkeland (35:26)
• “Even as fear of this technology increases, so does our use of it.” – Bente Birkeland (32:40)
• “It is a digital dragnet that turns our constitutional rights upside down.” – Krisanna Elser (33:48)

Local governments are making moves (36:00)

• Some municipalities, including Santa Cruz, CA, Eugene, OR, and Flagstaff, AZ, have deactivated or dropped Flock contracts, but Denver is swapping vendors—not truly dropping the tech.

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:24] – Elser’s police experience sets the scene
• [08:57] – AI and networked surveillance explained
• [13:47] – Data use for immigration, abortion worries
• [18:32] – Legislative hearing and Senate Bill 70
• [27:26] – Legal precedents and mosaic theory
• [32:09] – Cost emerges as a critical obstacle
• [33:35] – Elser testifies: ‘digital dragnet’
• [36:16] – Local action, shifting technology vendor landscape

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2. Ryan Tries Colorado’s First Robot Massage

(36:37 – 48:14)

Main Theme

Ryan Warner explores the experience of getting a massage from an AI-powered robot at Sway Wellness Spa, reflecting on how the technology compares with traditional human touch and what needs or anxieties it caters to.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Robot Massage? (36:37)

• Curiosity and novelty: Ryan, a massage therapist’s son, is both skeptical and intrigued.
• Customers include tech enthusiasts, those uncomfortable with human contact, and people with past trauma or negative experiences (38:47).
  • “Maybe they had bad experiences in the past, but they still love massage. And this is an area where they feel safe and comfortable because it's an alternative.” – Jocelyn Farmer (00:43 & 38:47)

How the Robot Works (39:52)

• Machine uses heated, 360-degree rotating ‘hands’ to simulate different massage modalities.
• Slippery "Escape apparel" replaces massage oil, allowing for gliding pressure.
• Personalized via body scan and ongoing feedback interface (43:35).
• Emergency stop and assistance buttons present for safety (43:04).

Observations and Reflections

• Autonomy and privacy: You don’t have to tip or chat ("Do I talk to the therapist or not?" – Ryan, 37:47).
• Appeals to those avoiding gendered therapist selection or performance anxiety.
  • “There's never the question of do I want a male or a female therapist or who's available in my comfort zone.” – Ryan Warner (39:39)
• No ‘intuition’ compared to a trained human: Ryan notes absence of therapist intuition but also the relief of not worrying about people-pleasing (47:20).

Memorable Moments

• “I did not feel any compunction to please the machine.” – Ryan Warner (47:56)
• Experience was relaxing despite skepticism (45:58).
• Machine ends with the classic “drink water” reminder, like human therapists (47:56).

Manager’s Perspective (47:08)

• AI won’t replace human touch but offers another option; “Human touch will never go away. It's too important.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [37:25] – Introduction and anticipation
• [38:47–39:52] – Who chooses robot massage and why
• [41:28] – User interface and experience walk-through
• [43:01] – Safety and machine design
• [45:55–47:08] – Ryan’s reflections post-massage
• [47:08–48:14] – Broader implications, human vs. robot touch

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Notable Quotes

• Sergeant Jamie Millman:
  “We have cameras everywhere in that town. You can't get a breath of fresh air in or out without us knowing.” (02:08)

• Sen. Judy Amabile:
  “People are scared that their private information about where they are going and what they are doing is going to be shared and shared to their detriment.” (00:11, 19:08)

• Krisanna Elser:
  “It is a digital dragnet that turns our constitutional rights upside down.” (33:48)

• Andy Kenney:
  “These networks... compile all that into a big, giant database that makes it incredibly easy to look up. Hey, did any camera in the whole network... see this car? And when.” (07:38)

• Alastair Whitney, Institute for Justice:
  “The Constitution and its protections are not designed for maximum efficiency, even for the sake of law enforcement. They are designed to protect liberty.” (24:49)

• Ryan Warner (on robot massage):
  “I did not feel any compunction to please the machine.” (47:56)

• Jocelyn Farmer, Spa Manager:
  “Human touch will never go away. It's too important.” (47:08)

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Conclusion

This episode of Colorado Matters artfully wove together one of Colorado’s most pressing policy conversations—how much surveillance is too much—with a lighter but thought-provoking look at another human–technology frontier: robot massage. From city council protests to statehouse debate, listeners hear from citizens, lawmakers, law enforcement, and privacy advocates wrestling with the new reality of networked surveillance and complex questions of rights and trust. Meanwhile, Ryan Warner’s spa experiment sheds insight into the shifting boundaries of comfort, interpersonal connection, and technology’s encroachment on the most personal of spaces.

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Transcript

[Ryan Warner]

The technology is supposed to make the community safer, but there's concern it's an invasion of privacy and easily misused.

[Judy Amabile]

People are scared that their private information about where they are going and what they are doing is going to be shared and shared to their detriment.

[Ryan Warner]

As state lawmakers take up the use of flock cameras and other surveillance tech, purplish has its eye on them later. A massage with no human hands, no oil, no chitchat, no tipping. I get a robot massage. The question is why anyone else would.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Maybe they had bad experiences in the past, but they still love massage. And this is an area where they feel safe and comfortable because it's an alternative.

[Ryan Warner]

It's Colorado matters from CPR news. I'm Ryan Warner. The technology is supposed to make Colorado safer, but comes with concerns about privacy and misuse. Flock cameras and other license plate readers are installed across the state. In purplish, CPR's Bente Birkeland and denverite's Andrew kenney dig into the evolution of surveillance tech and efforts to restrict it.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

Hi there. How are you? Good. How are you?

[Bente Birkeland]

Last September, Krisanna elser was at home in southwest Denver when she opened her door to find an unexpected visitor.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

I'm good. My name is sergeant Jamie millman with the columnite valley police department.

[Andy Kenney]

And what you're hearing is the audio that was captured by elser's ring doorbell camera, which she then shared online and with us here at cpr.

[Bente Birkeland]

You know why I'm here, Both my husband and I. An officer comes to your door, the first thing we think of is, you know, how can we help? Is something wr as one of our neighbors hurt.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

There was a theft of a package.

[Bente Birkeland]

Sergeant melamon told elser that someone had stolen a package in the neighboring community, and the town's flock safety surveillance system showed she did it.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

Like I said, we have cameras everywhere in that town. You can't get a breath of fresh air in or out without us knowing.

[Andy Kenney]

Flock makes a lot of these cameras. Cities across the state and the country use them. Thousands of law enforcement agencies use them.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

And.

[Andy Kenney]

And what they do is they read your license plate and then they track where it goes. They have made it a lot easier for police to find, for example, stolen vehicles or to identify potential suspects in all kinds of crimes.

[Bente Birkeland]

Standing on elser's front step that day, officer milliman kept insisting that he knew her car was close by right when that package was stolen.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

I guess that this is a shock to you, but I'm telling you, this is a lot. 100% no doubt.

[Andy Kenney]

As the sergeant went on, she was just growing more alarmed and shocked and confused because you know what? She had driven through bomar, but she hadn't stolen any packages. And yet here was this police officer absolutely insisting that she had.

[Bente Birkeland]

It was growing concerning when he asked if I drove through bomar often, and I said, no, I don't. And for him to immediately turn to the accusation of lying.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

Well, can I see this video? If you go to court, you can. If you're going to deny it, I'm not going to extend you any courtesy. If you're going to lie to me, I'm not going to extend you any courtesy.

[Andy Kenney]

Ultimately, the officer presented elser with his evidence, which was photos of her car driving through the town of bomar.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

Like I said, we have cameras everywhere in that town. You can't get a breath of fresh air in or out without us noise.

[Andy Kenney]

You can't get a breath of fresh air in or out without us knowing.

[Bente Birkeland]

All thanks to the cameras that have become a ubiquitous part of life.

[Andy Kenney]

This officer was ready to charge elser with a crime package, theft, based entirely on automated cameras, seeing her truck in the same neighborhood at roughly the same time as the theft. But elser was innocent, and she was eventually able to prove it.

[Bente Birkeland]

It's an especially tangible example of how much surveillance has grown and changed in just a few years.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes, these flak cameras and other similar license plate reading systems are the word you used earlier, ubiquitous. They've been installed by the hundreds all across Colorado by different police departments and cities. And what they do is they give law enforcement this ability to track individual citizens, residents in a way that they never had before. Now, if you ask a lot of law enforcement officers, they will say flock. And these similar cameras are revolutionizing their work on real serious cases and helping them solve a lot of terrible crimes.

[Matt Turner]

Fatal hit and run crashes involving kids, rural homicides, kidnapping with attempted murder in there, missing and endangered adults.

[Bente Birkeland]

But stories like elser's and fears that these surveillance networks could be turned to even darker ends have some Colorado lawmakers in both parties saying it's time to revisit the rules. Looking at dozens of communities around the state that have this flock technology, it's about 75, and that's according to the company. And even more use similar technology from other companies. So that means if you drive throughout Colorado, not just the front range, other parts of the state as well, it's likely your license plate is being read multiple times along the way. So, Andy, these cameras are in a lot of places And I have to admit, I've never actually tried to spot any of them. But are they pretty obvious?

[Andy Kenney]

Not necessarily. I didn't think too much about them before they became this major news topic. But now that I am more aware of them, I've realized that they are at pretty much any major intersection around the Front Range. If you look up, you will see a bunch of cameras and sensors perched up there. And chances are that one of those is a license plate tracking camera run by Flock or one of its competitors.

[Bente Birkeland]

The widespread use of these automated surveillance systems is touching on a lot of different things. You've got constitutional concerns about the right to privacy, frustration over more mass surveillance,

[Andy Kenney]

debates about how useful they really are for public safety and solving crimes, and also, I would say, just the general unease about artificial intelligence and this new ability to be tracked.

[Bente Birkeland]

Even if these cameras are transforming police work and improving public safety, according to those doing that work, it still seems to raise the question of whether laws are keeping up with the technology.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes. So in this episode, we're going to look at how license plate reading cameras became so widespread so quickly, why they've suddenly experienced this intense backlash, and what exactly state lawmakers are trying to do about it.

[Bente Birkeland]

Andy, I wanted to start by talking about what makes Flock and similar systems different from those automated cameras we encounter on the roads. Things like traffic light cameras. Those have been around for decades.

[Andy Kenney]

Yeah, we have been looked at by cameras in a lot of places for a long time. I mean, every convenience store you go to has had a security camera for many, many, many years. And there's been automated speed cameras set up in different communities for years. But what is new is the way that these are connected in a network and how easy they are to use. So in the past, if you imagine a police officer trying to solve, say, a murder, she might have to go and track down all the cameras that might have seen that and individually find a way to get access to the recordings from them. Asking a private business for it or pulling it up from a public database. What These networks, what FLoC and its competitors do, is to compile all that into a big, giant database that makes it incredibly easy to look up. Hey, did any camera in the whole network, not just across the city, but across the nation, did any camera see this car? And when.

[Bente Birkeland]

I mean, that's definitely a lot different than having the individual security cameras on various storefronts, having that connection, having that sharing capability. Law enforcement can sift through all of this data to investigate crimes and identify cars, certain areas, certain time and Connect it. How would you say AI factors into all of this?

[Andy Kenney]

AI is what's making all this possible. You know, the concept of a video camera isn't new, but what's new is this ability to combine them all into this massive data stream, this ability to monitor the video feeds and use machine learning, or AI to extract all this data. The system's kind of constantly watching all the cameras and saying, oh, there's a license plate. Oh, what kind of vehicle is that? What color vehicle is that? And compiling all that information in a way that you can easily search for it in real time, or you can go back and search. If a certain car was seen anywhere that a flock camera could see it, it's pretty remarkable.

[Bente Birkeland]

Police have said they've used these cameras very successfully. So there's one example where they tracked a stolen car they believed was tied to the murders of three women in Utah. The Utah highway patrol recently told reporters that they tracked this stolen car through multiple states.

[Jeff Jensen]

The vehicle was successfully tracked to pagosa springs, Colorado, where a coordinated effort between multiple law enforcement agencies in that area led them to this vehicle, which was left abandoned. And as a short, brief search of the area led them to the suspect, which he was taken into custody without any further investigation.

[Bente Birkeland]

And I talked to the durango police chief about this particular instance and the technology overall, and he said it's really been effective, and it helps to work across multiple jurisdictions and to do it quickly, especially in parts of the state like the four corners, like durango, where you're bordering three other states.

[Andy Kenney]

And what you're describing, benta, is a pretty universal sentiment among police that they. They feel like this is really effective here in Denver. They've credited flock cameras for all this progress that they're reporting, making on solving homicides, on reducing car thefts, just solving cases quicker. On the other hand, the thing that makes these cameras so effective at solving crimes is also what's making a lot of people really nervous and really alarmed. And that's this ability for law enforcement with relatively few checks to just be able to look up what any individual person is doing from day to day.

[Judy Amabile]

We heard from our neighborhood, and it said, no way do we want surveillance cameras in our neighborhood.

[Bente Birkeland]

In the last six months or so, we've seen people show up at city council meetings and community events to express strong opposition to the camera systems.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

And.

[Bente Birkeland]

And you can really hear that in this town hall that was held in Denver last October.

[Andy Kenney]

One of the things that I want

[Judy Amabile]

people to understand is this is not

[Jocelyn Farmer]

our grandparents mass surveillance Technology.

[Judy Amabile]

This is so different.

[Bente Birkeland]

Andy, you've been covering how this opposition to Flock is really boiling over right now. Do you see it as a new thing in the last few months, or has it been building for a while?

[Andy Kenney]

I think it's been simmering, Benta. I think that surveillance and privacy have been the concern, especially with the whole rise of the Internet for the last couple decades. But what's happened is that the use of Flock and similar technology has just exploded in the last few years. Flock has become just one of many companies offering this type of technology. It seems like almost every law enforcement agency, every city is installing these types of cameras.

[Bente Birkeland]

And just to interject, Axon is another big company that produces this technology. But Flock has kind of become synonymous with the tech.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes.

[Bente Birkeland]

Like Kleenex or Q Tip.

[Andy Kenney]

And so if you hear us say flock, we're kind of talking about this whole class of products. And Flock has really become the subject of a lot of public anger in different cities around the country and around Colorado. So at that town hall you mentioned, Benta, hundreds of people showed up to demand that the mayor, Mike Johnston, shut down the city's Flock cameras.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Turn Flock. Flock. Turn Flock off.

[Andy Kenney]

Turn Flock off. And I'll add, it's not just residents. This has really gained momentum with a majority, I would say the city council members, including Serena Gonzalez Gutierrez, who have questioned again why the city has these cameras, how they're getting used, how the data's getting used.

[Bente Birkeland]

I'm not okay with us continuing to have these cameras in our city operating. Not at all, but especially because we have not put in the necessary guardrails to ensure protection of our data. So people aren't just talking about privacy. They're also concerned about how the information from these cameras could be used for law enforcement efforts they don't agree with.

[Andy Kenney]

Yeah, that's right. That includes the fear that federal immigration authorities could tap into license plate data. And there's also the fear that states which make it a crime to help women get abortions, that they could use Flock data to track down women who are seeking abortion care in Colorado or other states.

[Bente Birkeland]

Andy, There isn't any evidence of law enforcement tracking people seeking abortion access in Colorado. But there was one case in Texas. Law enforcement accessed Flock camera data to try to enforce that state's abortion ban. But shifting back to the topic of immigration, FOQ has been used by federal immigration agents.

[Andy Kenney]

Like I mentioned earlier, we know that federal immigration agents have made efforts to use this technology. We have an example right here in Colorado where border patrol was running immigration related searches using the Loveland police account. And that was part of this broader phenomenon that was uncovered by nine News originally. I believe a bunch of us reporters followed up on that and found that in fact there were hundreds of queries that had been run by immigration agents across the network using different police agencies accounts. And a lot of those had pinged cities like Denver.

[Bente Birkeland]

Andy, you talked about this national sharing network. It's my understanding that within flock, a law enforcement agency has to opt into that sharing.

[Andy Kenney]

Yeah, that's a big point of contention. And it's true that what Denver said for many months was, it's okay, we only share our flock data with a limited number of other agencies, I think all in Colorado. And we have these restrictions. It's not like anybody can come along from across the nation and access it. But then it turned out that Denver actually had opted in, apparently by accident, into this national flock search function, where, yes, actually anybody with a flock account in the country could run a search and it would ping Denver and all these other agencies, flock systems to be like, hey, have you seen this particular license plate? And that revelation was like, not great for the credibility of flock in Denver. And there was also another incident in which floch's other defense was they were saying, like, well, ice doesn't have an account on Floch. We don't grant direct access to ICE or border patrol. If individual cities want to do that, that's fine. That's not under our control. But then it turned out that floc had a whole pilot program that was actively encouraging cities to grant access to immigration agents, and that completely immolated their credibility to many in Denver.

[Bente Birkeland]

Even if flock is fostering that, though, it is correct that ice doesn't have direct access to flock data for the cameras or anything unless those local agencies allow that access.

[Andy Kenney]

Well, so what happened was that Denver immediately, once they apparently realized they had been sharing that data, they shut off that national search function. They got more aggressive in limiting how other agencies used their data. But it was kind of late for that. This anger had really grown. And what we've seen is that it grabbed the attention of lawmakers who are now proposing this bill to try to really limit how cops and how police officers can use this data.

[Bente Birkeland]

At this moment in history, after the ice surges in Minneapolis and other cities, the idea of government so easily tracking where people have been is extra concerning.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes. And as we mentioned before, this community anger has started to get the attention of lawmakers. And so next we'll get into what this state bill would do.

[Ryan Warner]

That's when we return with Andy Kenney, Ben to Birkeland and Purplish, our podcast about politics and policy. I'm Ryan Warner here with Colorado Matters from CPR News. You're with Colorado Matters from CPR News. I'm Ryan Warner. It's the stuff of Big Brother government watching what we do on any given day flock cameras and other surveillance tech, keep tabs on license plates. State lawmakers are debating the trade offs. Let's get back to Purplish. Your hosts this time, Benta Birkeland and Andy Kenney.

[Bente Birkeland]

We've heard all these growing concerns over the data collected by these camera systems. Who's using it? Why are they using it? That's really at the center of this policy debate happening at the state Capitol this session.

[Ms. Jensen (Senate Judiciary Committee clerk)]

Good afternoon. Senate Judiciary Committee will come to order on Monday, 23rd February. Ms. Jensen, please call the roll.

[Andy Kenney]

Senators Carson, president, this bill, which has bipartisan sponsorship and got its first hearing

[Ms. Jensen (Senate Judiciary Committee clerk)]

in late February, as folks might have noted, there are a lot of folks who are interested to speak to the committee concerning one of the bills in particular, that being Senate Bill 70.

[Bente Birkeland]

All told, about 70 people came to speak on Senate Bill 70. And the main idea here is to restrict how law enforcement can obtain and use personal data recorded by these automated license plate readers. Democratic Senator Judy Amabile is from Boulder and she's one of the main sponsors of the bill.

[Judy Amabile]

We're here because we're hearing from our constituents across the ideological spectrum that they don't want mass surveillance. And that feels like where we are headed. People are scared that their private information about where they are going and what they are doing is going to be shared and shared to their detriment.

[Andy Kenney]

It's a pretty long bill. It's got a lot going on. But to me, the biggest change is that officers would have to get a warrant before they access a lot of the data from these cameras, with some exceptions. And to the bill backers, that just makes sense.

[Judy Amabile]

But we feel like this is fundamental to what this policy is about. Just like you can't search somebody's cell phone data, you can't go into their home. There are lots of instances when you need a warrant.

[Bente Birkeland]

I'll put a little caveat here. The crux of this is really a person's expectation of privacy. Your expectation of privacy is much different in your own home than when you're in a vehicle on a public roadway. More on that later, though.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes, that is a big emerging legal question. But one way or Another, the idea of needing a warrant is really important for people who want guardrails on Flock, for people who feel like it's used too broadly and too easily by the police. So under this bill, unless it's an emergency to get that warrant, officers would have to explain to a judge what crime were they actually looking for evidence about. Do they have probable cause to need to be able to look up where a particular person's car had been?

[Bente Birkeland]

I'll add that there is a little bit of wiggle room in the building. 72 hours of leeway. So even if it's not an emergency situation, there would be some leeway for not needing a warrant. And the language is a little confusing. And I texted Amabale and this is her interpretation of what this means. She said this 72 hour window means if a crime is reported, let's say days or weeks after it happened, the intention is to allow law enforcement 72 hours of data access. And that's based on the date the person reports this crime.

[Andy Kenney]

Maybe we should drill down on this more because, you know, law enforcement is pretty adamant that actually these restrictions, even if there's some leeway, they're saying these restrictions are going to keep them from using Flock in a lot of situations. It's going to make it a lot less useful.

[Bente Birkeland]

Yes, that's right. And a reason is because law enforcement says three days to search the Flock database for this historic data isn't necessarily enough time in a lot of instances to gather enough information to get a warrant. Matt Turner was at the Capitol and he's with the Weld County Sheriff's Office. He described the process to get a warrant.

[Matt Turner]

When you're writing a warrant, you're not going to write a warrant based on where a vehicle was. You're looking for where it is now with dramatic specificity. And the problem is you can't write a warrant based on a small lead. You need that probable cause. And a lot of.

[Andy Kenney]

This is getting a really interesting divide where the police are saying, this is just an investigative tool like any other. This is part of how we build the case. Whereas the reformers say, like, this is a really powerful tool and you shouldn't be able to use it without a judge's permission.

[Bente Birkeland]

In a lot of cases, yes, it's a very different way of looking at things. Law enforcement feels that this proposal does not align with how they actually do investigations. They say a warrant is not at the start of an investigation.

[Andy Kenney]

I'll add that the bill does allow an exception where you don't need a warrant at all if there are exigent circumstances.

[Bente Birkeland]

I've looked into that a bit. It's an emergency situation. There has to be immediate danger or harm or maybe evidence could be destroyed. And they do have to prove in court that the circumstance was exigent. Law enforcement testified and told me that this type of emergency is really rare. And I do have an example. Jeff Jensen is a deputy chief at the Colorado Springs Police Department. He described a reported kidnapping last year. A victim was at a park. She was with a friend. A stranger in a pickup truck approached her, forced her into the truck, drove to another location. She was violently sexually assaulted, and then he let her go.

[Jeff Jensen]

We wouldn't be able to argue exigency because we were not in active pursuit of the suspect. I would find it very difficult that the courts would feel that we had exigency because although the crime is absolutely horrendous, I would not or the lead detective would not be able to articulate that the offender presented an imminent and immediate threat.

[Bente Birkeland]

Jensen said by using Flock, law enforcement was able to arrest someone in one week. He said if this bill being proposed was law, they wouldn't have been able to access that data.

[Andy Kenney]

On the other hand, you are hearing people say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can still do your jobs. They want to make sure that police are respecting constitutional protections while they're doing their jobs. That we should hit the brakes a little bit if we're saying that law enforcement can just indiscriminately have all this data all the time. The argument is that if this is a legitimate investigation, they should still be able to carry it out.

[Alastair Whitney]

The Fourth Amendment does not prohibit law enforcement from investigating crime. Neither does this bill. It does not prohibit the use of technology, neither does this bill. But it does require process.

[Bente Birkeland]

This is Alastair Whitney and he's with a non profit law firm that leans Libertarian. It's called the Institute for Justice. He testified in support of the bill.

[Alastair Whitney]

In practice, the warrant requirement will make it marginally more difficult for law enforcement to access historical ALPR data. But that slight friction is the point. The Constitution and its protections are not designed for maximum efficiency, even for the sake of law enforcement. They are designed to protect liberty.

[Bente Birkeland]

You can hear in this audio that he mentions the Fourth Amendment in the Constitution. And that came up quite a bit during this hearing. And just reading the excerpt from the Fourth Amendment, public versus private people have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures. I do want to say that even some Democrats on This committee who ultimately voted for the bill said they didn't really see a Fourth Amendment issue because the Fourth Amendment is based on that expectation of privacy I mentioned earlier. This is a license plate on a public street in plain view.

[Andy Kenney]

Yes. And that's been a pretty strong legal defense of these. It's like, you know, even I as a private citizen could go out with a camera, take a picture of pretty much whatever I want on a public street. And legally, nobody can stop me from doing that. And so, yes, the courts have generally held that if you're doing it in public, you should not expect not to be recorded or observed doing it.

[Bente Birkeland]

For some people, though, this technology as it's expanding feels much different.

[Andy Kenney]

It is much different. You know, oftentimes the case law and the judicial law doesn't always anticipate how technology changes. And what's happening here is that you're not just being observed in public by one person or one camera. You're being tracked all the time by the government in a way that wasn't really possible before.

[Ryan Warner]

Andy Kenney, Penta Berkeland and Purplish, our podcast about politics and policy. The conversation continues on Colorado Matters in this next half hour with what could be the bill's undoing hint it has nothing to do with where you stand on the debate. This is CPR News and krcc. You're back with Colorado Matters From CPR News and krcc. I'm Ryan Warner. Before the break, we heard from law enforcement about the crime fighting capabilities of flak cameras and other surveillance technology. But critics warn it's easily abused. The conversation continues with purplish. Here again, CPR's Bento Birkeland and Denverite's Andrew Kenny.

[Andy Kenney]

As surveillance technology has gotten more advanced, it has raised actual legal questions. One example was in the 2010s, I think it was in 2012 when the Supreme Court tackled this question of can the police put a GPS tracker on your car for weeks without a warrant because you're, well, you're driving on public roads after all. Should they be able to observe you there? But for a couple reasons, the court found that actually was not a legitimate constitutional activity.

[Bente Birkeland]

And why was that? Because it's real time tracking.

[Andy Kenney]

There was two different reasons, and one of them had to do with trespass. Like, well, it's not really cool to just stick a tracker on someone's car. But what was more interesting was that quite a few justices, I think majority, including conservative Samuel Alito, argued that you have a reasonable expectation that the government won't create this mosaic of your life that you actually do have an expectation of privacy against being tracked everywhere, everywhere you go. And so that question I think is still kind of open in the courts. Like that wasn't a definitive you can never track people around without a warrant. But it did open up this kind of years long legal debate over this.

[Bente Birkeland]

And there are several ongoing cases about this Flock technology and privacy concerns. So we may get more information from the courts on how they're defining a mosaic of someone life or what constitutes an unreasonable search.

[Andy Kenney]

Mosaic of your life usually sounds like a nice biopic but in this case serious constitutional concern here. And what's really interesting about that, the homozaic theory is that yeah, it doesn't split cleanly on party lines. Like I just mentioned, Samuel Alito was a big part of raising this concern of the government having all this information about you. And that's why you see at least some Republicans supporting this reform effort. Senator Linda Zamora Wilson from El Paso county again was one of the bill's main sponsors.

[Judy Amabile]

When the government can track your vehicle history back months or years through these databases, any reasonable expectation of privacy is dead. And it's not the role of the government to have a God's eye view of its citizens.

[Bente Birkeland]

Zamora Wilson points to other states, places as different as Idaho, Minnesota and New York that are considering or enacting regulations on this technology and protections for personal data. Law enforcement folks I've talked to, including N. Durango said they think it's more about not as much the tracking that's worrying people right now. It's the sharing capability.

[Andy Kenney]

That's an interesting argument. You know, I think it comes down to whether people trust that once their data gets sucked up into the big machine that it actually stays where it's supposed to. And I don't know how much people will believe that or not. We all know that the companies are supposed to keep our data separate. And yet when I mention tacos on federal near my phone, I seem to get ads for tacos on federal. So I'll be curious to see if people really buy that once you create this data that it can be contained in that way. Where does Flock itself stand on this

[Bente Birkeland]

bill Bento right now the company is registered as wanting amendments to the bill and so we don't know exactly what those amendments are. The sponsor of the bill, Judy immobilize that she had been talking to Flock and trying to work with them. But during this six hour hearing at the Capitol, no representatives from Flock testified at the hearing Other license plate reader technology companies are registered as opposed to the bill.

[Andy Kenney]

Bento, we talked about the policy mosaic theory. Let's talk about politics. Can't avoid that. This bill has a handful of Democratic sponsors in the Senate, nearly a dozen in the state House, and like we said, one Republican is signed on too. Then on the other hand, there is law enforcement. Seems like law enforcement in Colorado is almost unanimously opposed to this bill. That could be a pretty powerful lobby. So what are the odds? Is this going to pass? What has to happen for it to pass?

[Bente Birkeland]

Right. And there are a lot of supporters, a lot of opponents. We've also got like fire chiefs and EMTs opposed cities, counties, all the district attorneys in Colorado from both parties. So it's like you've got this bipartisan support and opposition and people do feel so passionately about this and its importance. But despite all of this and everything we've talked about, the policy here might not be the biggest roadblock for this bill.

[Andy Kenney]

What do you mean?

[Bente Birkeland]

Well, the real issue could be the cost. So the nonpartisan legislative analysts think this bill would cost about $2 million to implement next year. A tiny amount when you think of the overall state budget. But state finances are in pretty terrible shape. There is like a 800 and some million dollar budget hole. Even two million dollars might be way more than lawmakers feel like they can spend.

[Andy Kenney]

What is that cost coming from? Why does it cost money to say they have to get a warrant?

[Bente Birkeland]

So a lot of those costs coming out of the state budget would be from the Judicial Department and the Department of Public Safety. This bill next goes to the Appropriations Committee. It's a waiting hearing. And the vote in that committee won't be about whether it's a good policy, whether it's a bad policy, what law enforcement, privacy experts, all of that. None of that matters in that hearing. Lawmakers will be looking at what it costs and how to find the money for it. And I'll say probably no one knows this process better than the main sponsor, Judy Amobile. She sits on the Budget Committee. If this bill is going to survive, it might have to be amended. Even as fear of this technology increases, so does our use of it. And I want to get back to that woman in Denver who was accused of stealing a package from a porch. She stayed pretty engaged on this topic, right?

[Andy Kenney]

Yeah, totally. Christanna Elser ended up in newspapers around the world, was obviously furious about the whole situation and eventually ended up testifying down at the Capitol in support of this bill.

[Bente Birkeland]

I'm here to testify this Technology is being sold as a shield to protect communities, but in practice, it is a digital dragnet that turns our constitutional rights upside down. She played kind of a prominent role in the hearing. She was one of the first people to testify who had this personal story about Flock data, trying to highlight the dangers of police potentially misusing it. She keeps going back to the fact that. And we heard that in the tape when the officer showed up at her door, he was so certain of her guilt.

[Andy Kenney]

You want to know how she ended up proving that she wasn't guilty?

[Bente Birkeland]

Yes, I do want to know.

[Andy Kenney]

Well, so she was driving her husband's car, which is a Rivian, and it had multiple cameras itself that are running all the time in it. And so she was able to send me and others the videos from the truck, these timestamped videos from the exact time that Sergeant Millman said that she had been in Bomar. And when I watched them, it showed. Yeah, she drove right through Bomar, but she never stopped. And so she proved her own innocence with that footage.

[Bente Birkeland]

That she had the irony of fighting tech with more tech. Andy, do you think if she hadn't had that technology on her husband's car, Floch could have eventually proved that she didn't steal the package?

[Andy Kenney]

No, I don't think that Floch itself would necessarily have proved that, because, you know, Flock is not all seeing. It shows her passing one intersection and then getting to the other, but it can't necessarily show what happened in between. I will add, this whole thing has got me thinking I should probably get a dash cam for my car.

[Bente Birkeland]

It brings up the point with just so much surveillance, Flock is one part of a, dare I say, mosaic of surveillance. Oh, yeah, In a lot of areas that it can get pretty messy. And I think this issue is only going to get thornier, particularly for places that want to slow down. Flock specifically, the best avenue for that is could really be at the local level. NPR has done some reporting that in the last year or so, 30 entities, places like Santa Cruz in California, Eugene, Oregon, Flagstaff, Arizona, they've either deactivated their Flock cameras entirely or canceled their contracts. But then you look at Denver. In that instance, the city is discontinuing with Flock, but signing up with a different vendor. So not doing away with the tech altogether.

[Andy Kenney]

That's right. It's a fascinating case where the status quo of what was possible has changed so quickly. And in some ways, the law and the public are catching up. And so if you want to get involved in this, now is the time. This is when we're kind of defining the norms of what is and what is not acceptable.

[Ryan Warner]

Purplish the podcast about politics and policy from CPR News and the Colorado Capital News Alliance. Our partners are KUNC News, the Colorado sun, and Rocky Mountain Pbs. Up next, why would anyone get a robot massage? This is Colorado Matters from CPR News. It's Colorado Matters from CPR News. I'm Ryan Warner. I was walking in Larimer Square the other day and saw a sign for robot massage. Turns out Sway Wellness Spa is the first in Colorado to offer this service. Figured I'd give it a try. It costs about the same as a session with a human therapist. Spa manager Jocelyn Farmer greeted me at reception.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I'm gonna tell you, I start a little skeptical because I'm the son of a massage therapist.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

I love that you love that you're part of our industry in one way or another and that you're gonna try something new today.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I'm going to try and massage. I don't have to tip the therapist for.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

You sure don't. And you don't have to talk to it either.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

That's interesting. There's always that tension with massages. Do I talk to the therapist or not?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Your space.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

This is your space now. If I talk to the robot, would it talk back?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Only on the screen asking you questions.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Only on the screen asking me questions. What do you mean?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

So it's going to ask you throughout the day treatment if you like, love or hate what it's doing because it's AI based, so it's getting to know you and your preferences so that it can better improve your massage for your future visit.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Okay, so the first massage is a bit of a baseline. You've had this machine for about a year.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

And it was the first in the state.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

The other, not surprisingly, is in Aspen.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I don't know why that makes sense, but it seems to. And what is the machine called?

[Ryan Warner]

You're renting it, correct?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Yeah.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

And it is called Escape.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Escape.

[Sergeant Jamie Millman]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Not something I'd want to escape from, but to hopefully.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

How are you finding people's reactions to it?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

So some come skeptical and also from the spa industry because of curiosity. So your story aligns with some of our other guests. We also have guests that come in that are in the AI world, in tech, that are super curious about this new invention within our industry. You have others that don't want to speak to a therapist. Maybe they had bad experiences in the past, but they still love massage. And this is an area where they feel safe and comfortable because it's an alternative.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Will you talk a little bit more about that?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Sure.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

What sorts of experiences with massages might drive me to the robot?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Perhaps the therapist talked too much. It was an uncomfortable experience. Perhaps you have personal trauma in your life that maybe has nothing to do with spa, but you don't want a human based massage because of personal trauma, and this is an alternative for you.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

There's never the question of do I want a male or a female therapist or who's available in my comfort zone.

[Ryan Warner]

Gosh, I hadn't thought about.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

About that part, Jocelyn.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

It makes some people feel much more comfortable.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

And it's got appendages.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes. So it works with hands that turn 360 degrees. Well engineered for massage modalities. So you'll feel that compression, like feel. You'll feel the effleurage, the glide feel. And you'll also feel knuckles and thumbs because of the way it's engineered. And they are heavy heated hands as well, which is always really nice.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

All right, well, okay, this is enough preamble. I feel like we should have the experience. And my understanding is that you're gonna provide me clothing.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes, Escape apparel.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Escape apparel, why?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

So that the machine can glide along your body and perform the protocol.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

So the clothing is slippy, essentially.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

It helps with the viscosity. Correct. All right, Ryan, we're gonna head into Sway now.

[Spa assistant]

Okay.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

I just ask that you turn on your spa voice.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

My spa voice.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

And if your phone's not on silent already, we'll just have you silence your cell phone.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I'm leaving it in the lobby.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

I love that. Okay, perfect.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Here is the robot massage therapist.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes. So this is our escape robot.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I will say it reminds me a bit of the appendages you see lording over you in a dentist's office. Maybe that's the best.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Much more comfortable and much more relaxing.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Let's hope so.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I'm just going to acknowledge the spa music in the background, which will be a presence as we discuss. But what are we looking at?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

You are looking at the welcome screen on the escape robot. So it is saying, welcome, Ryan, that you're having a full body massage today for 30 minutes. And then if you wanted to change your massage, you do have the opportunity to change that. You have a lot of autonomy here with this massage.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

So if you've had a massage, you have had the experience of laying face down in that donut pillow, headrest thing, the face cradle, and the screen is just beyond that. Correct. So it's near my Head. It's near my hands. Could I darken the screen if I want? Okay. And I can certainly close my eyes.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes, you can. You can also make the screen full black and just immerse sleep and not worry about it.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

And I could have this massage face up.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Only face down.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Only face down. That's a good thing to know.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes. So what you're going to do first and foremost is, is you're going to put on your escape apparel first.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

My slippy clothing.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes. You're going to tuck that top into the bottom. So you're going to just make sure that the machine can then fully glide because you've tucked the top into the bottom.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Got it.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

If you did have long hair, we'd ask for you to remove that away from your neck. And then if you had a necklace, we would ask you to take it off and put it on the jewelry tray over there.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I want to know before we do this, have there been mishaps? What is the least comfortable thing that has happened?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Somebody forgot to tuck it in, and then they paused and they just said that it was getting stuck in the bottom of the pant.

[Ryan Warner]

I see.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

And so somebody's sort of on standby if there's an issue.

[Judy Amabile]

Yep.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

So there's a needs assistance button right in the top, and then we get an alert.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Okay. So it hasn't injured anyone?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

No. And there's also an emergency stop button right there on top, too. The red one.

[Ryan Warner]

Oh.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

So the clothing is a lot like running or yoga gear. It's just got that sporty. Indeed, slippy feeling. So we'll put these on with some privacy. Jocelyn, am I leaving my underwear on?

[Spa assistant]

I am. Okay.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Okay. I feel like I'm going to space.

[Spa assistant]

I am face down. I am seeing the screen. Should I press continue? Is there an area where you need extra focus? I'm gonna do lower back. Adjust the headrest to a comfortable height to keep your neck relaxed during the session. Oh. As a taller person, I have now moved the headrest a little further away from my body, and it's taken pressure off my neck. Next, adjust the bolster. Oh, that's going way back from my long legs. Way, way back. Your settings will be saved for future sessions. Get comfortable. 3, 2, 1. Body scan in progress. Used to personalize your massage. The screen is dark. It's not really stressing me out. Scan complete. There's an image of me. It looks like I'm in a medical cyclopedia with muscles and bones and things. And now I'm getting some instructions. On how to pause my massage, how to have the machine move on if I'm done with a particular area and it wants my feedback. Choose your starting pressure. I'm going to light, and I can adjust the pressure anytime with the slider on this screen. Oh, my gosh. I just pressed starting massage. Here we go. Indeed. The contact points are warm, so I don't feel cold hands or clammy hands. I think right now I want to go nai nai and turn this screen off. So I'm gonna go screen brightness low, and I think I'm gonna doze off. I don't much like music while I get massaged, so that's going down. And for now, I'm gonna to give in to the machine.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

So are we a skeptic now, Ryan?

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I am less skeptical. I did relax. I took some very deep breaths. But I had a lot of thoughts on the table, I think because it was my first time. Were those four ring light cameras above me were those taking pictures, images of me?

[Jocelyn Farmer]

That's the body scanner, and it also has the lights so that it can dim and give you the ambiance in the room.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Now, it occurred to me that the slippy clothing I put on, that's the alternative to oil. So I'm not leaving feeling oily and oiling up my clothes.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Yes, exactly. Great observation there. So you could go right back to work right now.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I also thought it doesn't have intuition. Maybe this machine can sense things, but that notion of intuition is always going to be inherent in a therapist. And then it occurred to me, there are therapists giving massages in booths on either side. You're not using this as a complete replacement for people.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

Absolutely. We would never use this as a replacement for people. I feel like human touch, no matter what. With innovation robotics, AI Human touch will never go away. It's too important.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

On the other hand, there is a part of me when I get a massage that thinks, am I being the best client? Am I breathing the right ways? Am I by leaning into the touch and making sure that that muscle releases, there is a little bit of performance or people pleasing.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

I feel like it is people pleasing. I feel like you are trying to help when they are actually there for you and they are the ones who are supposed to be helping you, you're supposed to let go.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

I did not feel any compunction to please the machine.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

That is valid.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

It did tell me to drink water at the end, which all good massage therapists do.

[Judy Amabile]

Yes.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

And you followed the rules very well. I saw you come out with your water.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Thank you so much for letting me have the experience. I appreciate it.

[Jocelyn Farmer]

You are very welcome, Ryan. It was lovely to have you. And thank you for trying something new.

[Ryan Warner]

Jocelyn Farmer, manager at Sway Wellness Spa in Larimer Square. Home to one of two escape rooms massage robots.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

In Colorado,

[Ryan Warner]

We opted for theme song over massage music.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Okay, that's colorado matters for now.

[Ryan Warner]

Glad you could be here and thanks to our team.

[Andy Kenney]

Sandy batouga, tyler bender. Carl bielek, anthony cotton.

[Ryan (interviewer for massage segment)]

Pete kramer.

[Bente Birkeland]

Andrea dukakis.

[Andy Kenney]

Zan huckpechone, matt herz, tom hess. Michael hughes.

[Bente Birkeland]

Pedro lumbra, shane rumsey, haley sanchez, chandra thomas whitfield.

[Ryan Warner]

I'm brian warner at cpr news and krcc.