March 18, 2026: The state of friendship in the US; Breaking the 'starving artist' stereotype

Summary

COLORADO MATTERS – March 18, 2026
Episode Summary: "The State of Friendship in the US; Breaking the 'Starving Artist' Stereotype"

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Overview

In this episode, hosts Ryan Warner and Chandra Thomas Whitfield explore two distinct but resonant topics that touch on the fabric of American community life. In the first segment, Ryan Warner speaks with Dr. Natalie Pennington, assistant professor at Colorado State University and co-founder of the American Friendship Project, about the evolving landscape of friendships in the US, including loneliness, the roles of technology, parenting, and social structures. The second segment features Fruita sculptor Pavia Justinian discussing her journey as an artist, aiming to dispel the "starving artist" myth and provide practical advice to those interested in creative careers outside the typical city art scenes.

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Part 1: The State of American Friendship

Guest: Dr. Natalie Pennington, Assistant Professor at CSU, Co-Founder of the American Friendship Project
Host: Ryan Warner

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Friendship & Loneliness Paradox

• Despite 98% of Americans reporting at least one friend, a "loneliness epidemic" persists due to lack of quality connections over mere quantity.
  • Pennington: “It’s about the quality of the friendships, not the number of friends.” (01:57)

Barriers to Friendship

• Practical Obstacles: Expense, lack of transportation, limited walkable communities, and time scarcity are major barriers to building and maintaining friendships. (02:25–03:44)
  • Pennington: “When city planners make it harder for people to have walkable communities, it can have that spillover to friendship and to health.” (00:16, 03:44)
• Cultural Pressure: American culture’s work-centric and busy norms often crowd out social and leisure time.
  • Pennington: “This constant striving behaviors we have make us think we’re supposed to spend our time in a particular way.” (04:45)

Technology and Maintaining Connection

• Technology can support long-distance friendships but may also become an easy substitute for in-person interactions, leading to "lazy" socializing.
  • Pennington: “I wonder if technology becomes a crutch such that we're then less motivated to do the walk in the park.” (06:54)
• Hierarchy of Interaction: In-person is “gold standard,” phone calls are better than texts, and video calls can feel more alienating due to self-consciousness (08:19).
  • Pennington: "When we get to hear someone's voice... it just has this scientifically more of an effect on helping us feel a sense of connection..." (06:09)

Challenges of Adulthood and Life Transitions

• Making new friends as adults often relates to shared identity or activities. Transitions such as parenting can create feelings of isolation, especially when “out of sync” with existing friends' life stages. (10:37–13:23)
  • Pennington: “If you have a strong sense of self...when you move to a new community, you can plug into those groups. But let’s say you move and you don’t have that...” (10:37)
  • Pennington: “If your only best friend is your romantic partner...not as good for you. But if you have two best friends, and one of them is your romantic partner, you’re getting the best of both worlds.” (19:34)

Friendship Types and Endings

• Friendships are often less formally ended than romantic relationships. The idea of "dormant" and "commemorative" friendships is introduced:
  • Pennington: “Dormant and commemorative...It’s people who represented a time in your life or a place you were at and you’re like, I don’t like them any less. I just don’t see them now.” (15:20)

Polarization and Friendship

• Political differences have led to the end of some friendships; however, people are often more inclined to have difficult conversations with close friends than mere acquaintances.
  • Pennington: “What was encouraging with that was that they reached out...I need to talk to them about this and understand. Because it surprises me.” (17:09–18:02)

Best Friend Debate

• Having only your romantic partner as a best friend is less beneficial than having both a partner and another best friend outside the relationship. (19:34-20:56)
• “Best friend” as a label is fluid and sometimes uncomfortable for people due to its implied exclusivity.

Cultural and Demographic Factors

• Rural residents tend to have smaller, less diverse friendship networks; going to college expands both network size and diversity.
  • Pennington: “If you are from a rural community, you often have smaller networks...Same thing happens with college...going to college boosts the size and also the diversity of your network.” (23:36)

Group Friendships & Social Diversification

• Long-standing friend groups offer unique forms of support and sometimes become “chosen family.” (25:32–26:51)
• Not all friendships need to be deep; having a variety of friendships with different roles is healthy.
  • Pennington: “Friends can serve different roles in our life and don’t all have to be deep, meaningful conversations.” (27:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On city and community design:
  • “When city planners make it harder for people to have walkable communities, it can have that spillover to friendship and to health.” – Pennington (00:16, 03:44)
• On pandemic and friendship study:
  • “There’s no experiment I want to do that says you can see none of your people, but it’s happening in society.” – Pennington (09:02)
• On letting go:
  • “People might not like this answer: Find people who are in sync.” – Pennington (13:01)
• On the best friend label:
  • “The idea that there’s only one person who can be your best friend is flawed.” – Pennington (21:22)
• On social diversification:
  • “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good...Is what is holding you back this sense that it’s got to be Thelma and Louise or nothing.” – Warner (28:49)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:43] Introduction to the loneliness paradox
• [01:57] Quality vs. quantity in friendship
• [03:00] Role of public spaces in fostering connection
• [04:45] American culture and time scarcity
• [06:09] Communication medium hierarchy
• [10:37] Making friends as an adult
• [13:01] Friendship drift and finding "in-sync" connections
• [15:20] Dormant vs. commemorative friends
• [17:09] Effects of political polarization on friendships
• [19:34] Should your partner be your best friend?
• [23:36] Rural vs. urban and the effect of college
• [25:32] Group friendship and chosen family
• [27:22] Diversification in friendship roles
• [28:49] Pop culture and unrealistic friendship standards

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Part 2: Breaking the 'Starving Artist' Stereotype

Guest: Pavia Justinian, Fruita Sculptor
Host: Tom Hess

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Challenging Myths about Artistic Careers

• Justinian shares her mission to dispel the myth that art cannot be a viable career, inspired after being invited to "pitch your profession" at a local high school.
  • “A lot of people in my life felt like that wasn’t really going to be a secure career path...But I wanted to dispel some of those myths.” (35:47)

Navigating Career Decisions and Early Doubts

• Initially worked in a nursing home and considered art education for stability, but realized the classroom wasn’t a fit and decided to focus on being an artist despite doubts. (36:51–37:46)

Essential Career Skills Beyond Artistry

• The ability to communicate about one’s art, especially through writing, is vital for professional artists.
  • Justinian: “Writing about my work and like, writing artist statements and applying for shows... helped me learn how to talk about my work.” (38:14)
• Applying for grants and shows often requires framing your work through the lens of others, much like academic essay prompts. (39:00–39:36)

Building a Career in a Smaller Community

• Rejects the notion that artists must go to major cities or leave their hometown to find success; highlights local opportunities and community support in Grand Valley.
  • “So many people move away from their hometown because they feel like they have to. And there’s actually a lot of opportunities even right here...” (39:59)

Persistence, Rejection, and Milestones

• The importance of “putting yourself out there," accepting rejection, and applying for all opportunities as steps to visibility and recognition. (40:51)
• Discusses the scary transition to full-time artist and how projects like the Redlands Roundabout marked turning points in stability and reputation.
  • “I did think, maybe this is not for me. Maybe I’m going to have to go back and do a day job again. But I got lucky. I didn’t have to do that.” (41:41)

Public Art and Feedback

• Creating public sculptures comes with opportunities for broad feedback; her college critiques helped develop resilience and receptivity to public opinion. (43:47)

Industry Changes: Social Media’s Impact

• Observes that social media has democratized exposure, reducing reliance on galleries (sometimes disrespectful), and allows artists more control over their audience and marketing.
  • “Social media...gives people so much more opportunity to put their own work out there.” (44:17)

Notable Quotes

• On practical advice to artists:
  • “Being able to talk about your work is probably one of the most important things for being a professional artist.” – Justinian (38:14)
• On local opportunities:
  • “There’s actually a lot of opportunities even right here in the Grand Valley for artists.” (39:59)
• On public art:
  • “Public art means public feedback.” (43:31)
• On social media:
  • “Social media...gives people so much more of an opportunity to put their own work out there.” (44:17)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [35:47] Origin of career mythbusting mission
• [36:51] Early career doubts and first jobs
• [38:14] Importance of writing and communication
• [39:59] Staying local vs. moving away for art
• [41:41] Transitioning to full-time artist, overcoming fear
• [43:31] Navigating feedback in public art
• [44:17] The impact of social media on artists’ careers

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Additional Segment Highlights

Colorado Budget Cuts and Medicaid

• Short discussion on the impact of state budget shortfalls on families caring for people with disabilities, with voices from lawmakers and families affected.
• Sen. Jeff Bridges: “We’re doing our best to cause the least harm… our metric these days genuinely is: are people going to die if we vote a particular way…”

Denver’s Bison Herd Returns to Tribal Lands

• Short feature on Denver’s donation of bison yearlings to tribal governments as a gesture of reconciliation and stewardship.

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode remains empathetic, occasionally humorous, and thoughtful throughout, with Ryan Warner’s candid asides and Dr. Pennington’s evidence-based yet accessible delivery inviting listeners to reflect on their own lives. In discussing creativity, Pavia Justinian’s honesty and practical wisdom provide encouragement and realism for aspiring artists.

For Further Listening

• For more on friendship research: American Friendship Project
• For Colorado arts resources: Colorado Creative Industries

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Summary by Section:

• American friendships: complex, challenged by time, economic, and societal factors, and distinctly American in their shape but sharing universal challenges; technology is a tool but not a replacement; diversified connections and community structure matter.
• Artistic careers: hard but possible, especially with communication skills, persistence, business savvy, and willingness to build community wherever you are. Social media has leveled the playing field for many.

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Prepared for those who want an in-depth grasp of the episode’s valuable and practical insights on friendship and building a creative career in Colorado and beyond.

Transcript

[Ryan Warner]

The American Friendship Project, based in Colorado, studies the state of US Friendships. I didn't expect our conversation to veer into economics and how we build our neighborhoods.

[Natalie Pennington]

Practical things like it's expensive or I don't have a car. So when city planners make it harder for people to have walkable communities, it can have that spillover to friendship and to health.

[Ryan Warner]

Plus, should your partner be your bestie then? Families who rely on Medicaid watch as state lawmakers close a budget gap potentially on their backs. And a fruita sculptor wants to demystify art as a career.

[Pavia Justinian]

I did think, maybe this is not for me. Maybe I'm going to have to go back and do a day job again.

[Ryan Warner]

Pavia Justinian with advice she wished she'd heard when she became an artist, it's Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Ryan Warner. There's a loneliness epidemic, but ask people if they have friends and the vast majority will answer yes. So what gives? Let's ask a friendship expert. Natalie Pennington is an assistant professor at Colorado State University. She's also co founder of the American Friendship Project. Its goal is to be the most accurate and complete account of of American friendship. Hello, friend, Hello. Or maybe friend to be. We aren't there yet.

[Natalie Pennington]

We're working on it, though. Good start.

[Ryan Warner]

I was late to the interview and I thought this is not a good way to start a friendship.

[Natalie Pennington]

It's okay to be late sometimes and a friend understands.

[Ryan Warner]

Your report on the status and health of friendship in the US finds 98% of people say they have at least one friend. How can we possibly be in a loneliness epidemic?

[Natalie Pennington]

It's about the quality of the friendships, not the number of friends. So I can have friends, but if I'm not happy about the time I spend with them or how close I am, that's where we can get loneliness.

[Ryan Warner]

To that point, more than half of folks say they have five or more friends, and yet almost as many long for closeness. What's the villain here? Is it responsibilities? Employment? Parenting? Adulthood? Time?

[Natalie Pennington]

It is all of those things. Our latest data actually shows that it's sort of a mix of practical things like it's expensive or I don't have a car. Also, people who say things like I don't have time, I'm busy or they don't have time, they're busy.

[Ryan Warner]

Those are important things to break apart. So money. The expectation is if we see a friend, we're going to do something that costs something. This may speak to the lack of third places right Civic spaces where we don't have to spend money to be together.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly. I'll say it's shout out to Fort Collins. They have a lot of great green spaces for people to get together. And so part of that, I think, is educating people about, say, hey, you can hang out with friends, and here are locations that exist in your city or community that aren't going to cost you money. Also inviting people into your homes, which I think people sometimes get nervous about

[Ryan Warner]

and maybe even more so after the pandemic. Yes, during the pandemic, home became fortress. And I have just noticed, not through any conscious decision, that I let people in less.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yes.

[Ryan Warner]

Boy, that's a metaphor. Is this turning into a therapy session? Natalie? How dare you? Okay, then the notion of accessibility. So whether people can get to a place to see a friend, that too is a luxury, isn't it? To some extent.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly. And can speak to city design. Right. I think part of what I love about studying friendship is reminding people that it affects all aspects of our community and life. And so when city planners make it harder for people to have walkable communities, it can have that spillover to friendship and to health.

[Ryan Warner]

I did not think this discussion would get so quickly into these broader social aspects. Design, economics. And then there was the question of time. Inherent in that is the assumption that maybe my friend is busy. Are people taking that to heart without actually knowing the information?

[Natalie Pennington]

That is what I suspect is happening. We are like, oh, they have a family. They don't have time for me. And so if we don't even ask, we don't even know. Right. Or if they said no once, and then we're like, okay, well, they know that they don't want to. And so trying to encourage people to

[Ryan Warner]

ask again, to put yourself out there.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly.

[Ryan Warner]

But are we in an epidemic of busyness? I mean, that speaks to employment. There are folks with multiple jobs to make ends meet.

[Natalie Pennington]

It's American culture, partially, I think. Right. So this constant striving behaviors we have that make us think we're supposed to spend our time in a particular way.

[Ryan Warner]

Yes.

[Natalie Pennington]

But also, of course, the current political, economic climate where people do have to have multiple jobs to get by sometimes, and that trades off with leisure, which is a really big part of it.

[Ryan Warner]

I think what I'm hearing as well in this is that there are individual level issues that contribute to the quality of friendships, and there are societal level issues that contribute to friendship.

[Natalie Pennington]

We could go even like an in between point in there where it's the factors about me, but also the Communities I live in and also those bigger social structures that inform my relationships.

[Ryan Warner]

I think about some of my friendships today. A lot of them are just sending memes back and forth. There are group chats where friends I may not see for weeks are texting me every day. I wonder if to some extent technology is changing the nature of friendship.

[Natalie Pennington]

It can. I'm somebody who thinks that technology can be really good for us, especially when those friends don't live close, but also being aware of more active uses. So actually talking to people versus just consuming information about people.

[Ryan Warner]

You don't mean picking up the phone, do you?

[Natalie Pennington]

I do.

[Ryan Warner]

People don't pick up the phone.

[Natalie Pennington]

I know. Especially millennials. I'm a millennial. I see the meme all the time. Like millennials will never answer the phone the first time. Yeah, I could be just as guilty of that. But when we get to hear someone's voice and talk to them, it just has this scientifically more of an effect on helping us feel a sense of connection and belonging and less loneliness than if we texted with them.

[Ryan Warner]

So do you value a walk in the park with a friend over a phone call with a friend?

[Natalie Pennington]

Yes.

[Ryan Warner]

Okay.

[Natalie Pennington]

Why the face to face piece of this in person? It's kind of what we say is the gold standard. It's gonna be really good for us because that social presence of being in the moment. But a phone call is gonna be better than a text message. Each way we can kind of move the needle depending on how close people are.

[Ryan Warner]

You know, it's remarkable. About one of the group chats I have, all of the folks in it are in my city. Uh huh. It's not a distance thing necessarily. It is a time thing. Do we get lazy? To some extent. I do wonder if technology becomes a crutch such that we're then less motivated to do the walk in the park.

[Natalie Pennington]

Recent data shows there are people who say the reason they don't hang out with people is they say they're lazy. So some people did say that. Yeah. So it was a write in answer. But I absolutely. People said I'm just a little lazy. I don't have the energy for that. I don't feel like doing it.

[Ryan Warner]

What were other reasons?

[Natalie Pennington]

Oh, health issues. So that's a huge part of it. So if you're somebody who has a chronic health condition and you're worried about being out and about with people, or you are going through an acute thing in the moment and getting treatment, people socialize less. Unfortunately.

[Ryan Warner]

I also was thinking about touch and eye contact. A Hand on the shoulder, a hug. You know, these things are priceless scientific evidence.

[Natalie Pennington]

Corey Floyd, Amazing person studies touch and affection and how that affects our loneliness, our happiness, but also like our cortisol levels having that nervous system. Yeah. So you're absolutely right that that's probably a part of it. And also why then in person is better for us than video calls? People actually tend to really dislike video calls.

[Ryan Warner]

I don't want to have to think about how I look on the camera.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, you're staring at yourself, which you don't do in in person conversations. Right. You're like, oh, there's me on the screen and my friend, and I'm talking to my friend, but I see myself. Even though we would think, okay, I can see the person. That's better than a phone call, it's not interesting.

[Ryan Warner]

And boy, does that confirm my feelings. I want to talk about the American Friendship Project. Why did you create it? Co create it.

[Natalie Pennington]

Jeff and Mandy and I are the three who run this. Jeff Hall, University of Kansas. Amanda Holmstrom, Michigan State. We actually started all three writing together during the pandemic. So did a study before the American Friendship Project where we said, this is a time where we literally can see the effects of technology on our relationships. When people don't have face to face

[Ryan Warner]

contact, quick, hurry, study it.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah. And so we're like, if there's ever a time. Right. We don't want to force people. Right. There's no experiment I want to do that says you can see none of your people, but it's happening in society. And so we did that and said, wow, we really like working together and there's a need for this information. And so after that kind of getting together and saying, well, gosh, we have studies that look at how Americans spend time, but it doesn't really dive into friendship. A lot of the times when we look at data, people focus on family relationships or romantic partners.

[Ryan Warner]

Yes. There's so much data about there about romance. So many damn books about romance.

[Natalie Pennington]

Not as much about friends.

[Ryan Warner]

So friendship is studied less. Would you say that?

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, absolutely. Increasing, which is great, but way less than family or romantic.

[Ryan Warner]

It's fascinating to me that the pandemic provided essentially the kind of control, and I mean control group almost, that you would never have at another time in history.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly.

[Ryan Warner]

Well, the assumption thus far has been that I have friends and I need to make time for them. Let's talk about making friends. I think that there are times in life when that's easier than others. The natural being thrown together at A school, Maybe you are a part of an affinity group. I always say, as someone who has moved to a lot of different communities for my job, I've always been able to plug into the Jewish community. I've always been able to plug into the queer community. And those have been superpowers to some extent. What do you find are the obstacles to making friends? Maybe when we're not on the playground

[Natalie Pennington]

anymore, it's such an issue to talk about. I actually could point to some of the things you just said. If you have a strong sense of self and identity and know the communities you're a part of, when you move to a new community, you can plug into those groups. But let's say you move and you don't have that strong sense of, whether it be religion, sexual orientation, even activities.

[Ryan Warner]

I was gonna say, I don't know

[Natalie Pennington]

what my hobbies are. It's so much harder to get plugged into the community and build those connections. And so it's the really encouraging folks to say, know yourself and the things you care about and whether that's, you know, deep personal aspects of you are just, I love to do pottery.

[Ryan Warner]

I'm a spelunker, I love a good cave or something.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, exactly. That's how you meet people.

[Ryan Warner]

And to ask yourself that question, yeah, is that a blind spot for some folks, do you think?

[Natalie Pennington]

I do think it can be. And as you get older, this goes back to the time question. People say they're busy and they're spending their time on work and on family and obligations versus saying, you know, where is that space for fun? And acknowledging that that can be very hard for some individuals as they're making ends meet. But knowing yourself and the things you love can at least move you in that direction.

[Ryan Warner]

I'm so glad you brought up parenting because the producer of this segment is a new parent and is finding that to be quite isolating. I think of mom blogs and mom communities, perhaps dads hanging out together. But there's a time when parenting becomes rather isolating, I think. Can you speak to that? Is that manifest in your data?

[Natalie Pennington]

Both my data and things I've heard from people. My sister has. She's now a four year old, but when Wendy had her first kid, her daughter, she was the first friend of

[Bazi Kanani]

hers who had a kid.

[Natalie Pennington]

And so that isolating experience of having a tiny human you're taking care of, but none of your friends are experiencing

[Ryan Warner]

that, yet all of a sudden you're out of lockstep with your friend group.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly. You know, in a Dream world. If you and your friends have kids at the same time, which I've also seen people experience, it's great because now the two of you can bond even more over that shared relationship. But when you get out of sync with your friends, whether that's kids or they got married and I didn't, or they're going through this, you know, experience, it shifts things.

[Ryan Warner]

Is there a tool that you could suggest when you find yourself out of sync with people you've been synced up with for a long time?

[Natalie Pennington]

People might not like this answer. Find people who are in sync. That doesn't mean those friends from before aren't as important for you, but the value of having someone going through shared experiences, really important. And so start a mommy group if you don't have friends. Or reach out and connect in your community to find people in those spaces who can really help you understand what you're going through more.

[Ryan Warner]

Oh, my goodness. You're hinting at this idea of moving on, perhaps from friendships or onto different ones. And whether friendships have an expiration date. There's a lot of grief that can come up in this.

[Natalie Pennington]

There is, and it's interesting because we think about other relationships. Family, we sort of say, you know, family is forever. Family's family. Even if I'm annoyed with them, they're still my family. Romantic relationships, we try to have a hard starter end to those things, especially ends.

[Ryan Warner]

But there are contracts involved.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, exactly. Right.

[Ryan Warner]

There's like legal societal supports, and that

[Natalie Pennington]

doesn't exist for friends. And so when friendships start to drift, people often struggle with that a lot. They're like, wait, what's happening? And they don't talk about it. It's not usually like this big conflict we're over. It tends to be that sort of slow shift away.

[Ryan Warner]

Yes, exactly. That is what strikes me as so different from breakups in the romantic sense is that friendships fizzle. There isn't the slamming of the door and the goodbye, you know, good luck. I also think that there are so many friends I don't speak with with any regularity, but who I always carry in my heart. And that's a function of having lived a lot of places. It doesn't make a lot of sense geographically or temporally. I mean, there are only so many hours in the day. But I don't think of them as any less a friend than. Than someone who's close.

[Natalie Pennington]

And I think that that's that distinction between things we can point to that make us feel less close. That's like a problematic. I Don't like their romantic partner. You know, we always did this thing together and now we don't. Those are very distinctly different experiences.

[Ryan Warner]

Yes.

[Natalie Pennington]

So if we think about labeling friends as dormant or commemorative, which are our two categories that exist. Oh, yeah. So study those in the relation to social media. So people keep these giant networks on social media.

[Ryan Warner]

Yes.

[Natalie Pennington]

And most of them aren't active friends. It's people who represented a time in your life or a place you were at and you're like, I don't like them any less. I just don't see them now. Or they're dormant and if you did live in the same space, you'd probably still hang out with them. You just don't.

[Ryan Warner]

Dormant and commemorative. Commemorative friendships. I have goosebumps. You can't see because I'm wearing a long sleeved sweater. Our guest is a friendship expert. Dr. Natalie Pennington is an assistant professor of communication at Colorado State University. More insights from her American Friendship Project. After a break. We'll discuss political polarization and whether your romantic partner should be your bestie. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News. Where are your friends tonight? Where are your friends tonight?

[Natalie Pennington]

Where are your friends tonight?

[Ryan Warner]

It's Colorado Matters from CPR News. I'm Ryan Warner. When it comes to research into relationships, family and marriage get most of the attention. Natalie Pennington at Colorado State University is interested in friendship. During the pandemic, she and colleagues sprinkled around the country started the American Friendship Project. We spoke during my most recent visit to Fort Collins. Do you have some sense that the polarization in this country is affecting friendships with any heft?

[Natalie Pennington]

It can, and it's one of the things that we've seen come up asking people in the American Friendship Project and in other studies I've done about relationships that have ended and what have been the causes and politics is a piece of that. And when we especially experience that with close ties, someone we really felt close to and found out, wait, they have different views than me on this. That can be really hard to come back from for some people. Any tools, what I'll say as a promising example where people are, I think, trying. I did a study, we asked people, what's a topic you deeply care about? Pick any political issue. What do you really care about? All right, now I want you to imagine somebody really close to you posts the exact opposite views of you on social media. And what do you do? What was encouraging with that was that they reached out. So it was the like, I'm gonna direct message them. I need to Talk to them about this and understand. Because it surprises me.

[Ryan Warner]

You found that most often. That was the reaction.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, yeah. Which is amazing. We want that reaction.

[Ryan Warner]

Yeah, I agree.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah.

[Ryan Warner]

Because this doesn't feel like a moment when people seek to understand, especially when I think our politics, our identity gets

[Natalie Pennington]

tied up in two specific criteria here. It's the thing I care the most about and a person I care about. And I think when those two pieces are at the top of the list, that's when we're like, okay, I'm gonna direct message you, but if it was somebody I'm not close with, that does it. We're gonna hide them, we're gonna unfriend them. We're gonna keep scrolling and ignore it. And so this distinction in the closeness of our relationship and how it affects

[Ryan Warner]

it, but this is really important because in some ways, the strength of American. Something to do with the strength of American democracy, of our sense of e pluribus unum.

[Bazi Kanani]

It can.

[Natalie Pennington]

And that's true of, I think, any of our relationships are. If we have a person we really deeply care about and recognize that we're at odds in terms of our values or belief systems, the chance to have those conversations, to sort of start to understand where someone's coming from can be really valuable.

[Ryan Warner]

I love that your studies mostly let people define friend for themselves. Some included siblings, others included their romantic partner. So, Natalie, I have to ask, should our partner be our best friend? Or is asking one person to be our mate, our therapist, our roommate, our adventure buddy, our co parent, all at once a problem?

[Natalie Pennington]

If your only best friend is your romantic partner and you do not declare anyone else in your life a best friend, not as good for you. But if you have two best friends and one of them is your romantic partner, you're getting the best of both worlds. Because valuing friendship with your romantic partner is really important. It's thinking about this idea of, this is a person I trust, a person I like hanging out with. I'm thinking of us as friends, but also life partners or dating at least.

[Ryan Warner]

Okay. So, yes, and yeah, it's both parts. What do you base this assertion on? That it's less ideal to have only a best friend in a partner and not outside the relationship.

[Natalie Pennington]

We looked at this in the American Friendship Project data, so looked at it and said, okay, how many people have called their romantic partner a friend? How many of them have called them a best friend? And then if they have another best friend and allowed us to actually compare that to see. And so that's where if you have somebody who is your romantic partner and you call them your best friend, your companionship is really high. They'll go to dinner with me, they'll go to concerts with me, great. But if I have a romantic partner over here and I also have a best friend, you know, other space, two different humans, my perception of support is greater, which also makes sense because now I have two people who will do things for me and that number jumps up.

[Ryan Warner]

Well, and the friend can become someone you lean on. If the going gets rough with the relationship, which is inherent to relationship, or

[Natalie Pennington]

either way, I fight with my best friend, I can go to my romantic partner. I fight with my romantic partner, I can go to my best friend.

[Ryan Warner]

So would you tell someone whose best friend is their partner and who doesn't have another best friend get one? I mean, is it that clear cut,

[Natalie Pennington]

have somebody you're close with besides them? So that's where the labels are fuzzy. Because one person, we had participants who said, I have seven best friends. It's just amazing. And I think the idea that there's only one person who can be your best friend is flawed. So it's maybe not the get another best friend, but I bet you already have another person who might meet this definition and you're just not calling them that yet.

[Ryan Warner]

It's so interesting when I use the term best friend, it almost feels like an insult to some of my other friends. Like, you know, there's an inherent ranking in that that makes me uncomfortable.

[Natalie Pennington]

You're right. And it's hard because you've got friends who've experienced all kinds of different things with you or you've been connected to for longer or shorter, and you can feel really close to somebody who you've only known for a couple months or a year. And so part of why we try to pull back from the labels and just say, you can call it whatever you want to. But now we're also gonna get into the how'd you meet? How close do you feel? How often do you talk?

[Ryan Warner]

This is the American friendship project. It's not the Japanese friendship project. It's not the Ukrainian friendship project, it's not the Lesothal's friendship project. Do you think there is something distinct about American friendships or is it a question of you can only study so much?

[Natalie Pennington]

It's both. I think all cultures and how they approach friendship have unique elements that are valuable for them to study. I would love and encourage to see other countries taking steps to really focus on friendship. But it is also, I think, something that's I can only look at so many people at so much time. And so us trying to say within this space that we're in, how can we really kind of understand this more?

[Ryan Warner]

How gendered is this work?

[Natalie Pennington]

There are differences and we've looked at a variety of demographics. So saying, you know, are there experiences for male friendships or women's friendships or how sexual orientation might relate as well race, if somebody's from a rural versus urban community. And the answer is there are differences. And that's for us, having this giant sample means we get the chance to actually start to understand, understand some of those things.

[Ryan Warner]

What's something curious that has emerged for you? I know that's a big realm of data to draw from.

[Natalie Pennington]

I can give you two. If you are from a rural community, you often have smaller networks than people who are not from a rural community. And that makes sense of just the size of potential people for you to connect with. Right? Same thing happens with college. When you go to college, Right. We were just talking about school is when you meet people. So going to college boosts the size and also the diversity of your network. So you're meeting more people, but also more people from different backgrounds. Both really good things. Another one that I think is really important that seems to be the case across a variety of demographics is that whatever your identity is, so you know, if you're somebody who identifies as biracial and you identify as queer and you are single, then having a friend who is also those identity characteristics really good for you.

[Ryan Warner]

It's interesting because we're in this period, it feels like in the country where we're being told that emphasis on our identity and our differences is injurious. But I think when you look at friendship and it doesn't mean that different types of folks can't be friends, of course, but when you look at friendship, those affinities become really important in a, in a bond.

[Natalie Pennington]

It does. It's what matters to you. So that's where before I think you can be a good friend or develop and cultivate friendships, knowing yourself and knowing the things you care about and whether that be the deeply held aspects of your identity, but the things you like to do hobby wise, both of those can help you find those affinity groups.

[Ryan Warner]

Right? And of course if you like basketball or you like swimming or you like crocheting, you might meet a varied group. What questions about friendship are unanswered?

[Natalie Pennington]

Ooh, so many.

[Ryan Warner]

What's something you are desperate to know more about?

[Natalie Pennington]

There's one that I am attempting to answer now that I'm quite excited about friendship groups. The American Friendship Project very much focuses on individual relationships. So we do get a sense of someone's total network. We're asking you, how many total friends do you have? Who makes up that? But we're also just getting this one on one relationship between you and another person. And so I'm doing a separate study right now with my research team here at Colorado State, where we're saying we want to talk to people who have been part of a friend group for 10 years or more. And we want to really understand, like, how are you staying connected? And a group is three or more people. And so all of you have kept this going. We've already interviewed five groups, like, totally different experiences. And it's so fascinating to think about how being embedded in a group can actually help you stay connected when you might not have otherwise.

[Ryan Warner]

Yeah, people who maybe vacation together, people who are always at each other's rituals. I mean, that's almost a blend of family and friend. You know, they've created their own family.

[Natalie Pennington]

They have, you know, one group. We talked to three women who are from a smaller community, who are grandmothers now, and they're like, you know, our kids and our kids. Kids are just all so connected. And so. Yeah, exactly. It's this chosen family aspect to stay friends for so long.

[Ryan Warner]

You know, I think of someone in my life, a former producer, actually Michelle, whose sorority. I mean, Michelle is retired now, but the bonds formed in her sorority. This goes back to the idea that college university has a particular effect. Those bonds are still strong.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yeah, they are.

[Ryan Warner]

And they actually defy politics. One thing she's told me is that there are some real disparate political beliefs, but the cohesion remains.

[Natalie Pennington]

You build that sisterhood. You have those relationships that were cemented maybe before even your political views were fully realized. I worry sometimes about when I do interviews like this or talk to people about how friendship is important, that I create undue pressure for them to have these great, amazing, wonderful friendships. And acknowledging that friends can serve different roles in our life and don't all have to be deep, meaningful conversations is really important, too. I can have friends that I only play basketball with or talk about figure skating with or send memes with, and those are okay, but it's the balance of. So as long as I still have other people that I'm close with, too, but not putting that pressure on us to have deep, close relationships with every person.

[Ryan Warner]

Yeah, I think you're talking to some extent about diversification. I mean, it's funny. They say a good investment portfolio has all sorts of dimensions. Right. You're diversified. It really strikes me that there is a similar quality to relationships.

[Natalie Pennington]

Yes. It's part of what especially Jeff and I have been doing a lot of work around. He actually built a theory that looks at the energy investment in our relationships and sort of the trade off that exists for those. And it goes back to that conversation we had a little bit ago about people saying I'm too busy and I wonder if they're actually too busy or their perception of what they would have to do and the effort to do it is higher.

[Ryan Warner]

Oh, that it's all or nothing. Yes. Which I love. The phrase don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good is what is holding you back, this sense that it's got to be Thelma and Louise or nothing.

[Natalie Pennington]

Exactly. So I think that popular culture of Meredith and Christina, Grey's Anatomy, you're my person. Like, oh, all my friendships are supposed to be that or ab Fab. Yes. It's so unrealistic. It's just not our everyday.

[Ryan Warner]

Thank you so much for chatting.

[Natalie Pennington]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Ryan Warner]

Natalie Pennington, assistant professor of communication studies at csu. She's co founder of the American Friendship Project. Hey girl, hey girl. We can make it easy if we

[Natalie Pennington]

lift each other hey girl, hey girl

[Ryan Warner]

we don't need to keep on wanting

[Pavia Justinian]

hey girl, hey girl, hey girl, hey girl.

[Natalie Pennington]

If you lose your weight

[Ryan Warner]

and Colorado Matters continues in this next half hour with the effects of a balanced state budget on people with developmental disabilities. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News. You're back with Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Ryan Warner. Families of children with developmental disabilities are bracing. Budget cuts may mean fewer services and less support from the state.

[Natalie Pennington]

We're not talking about people who can go to work or who can have conversations at the dining room table or who can dress themselves and be themselves. We're talking about the most needy people that bring joy to their families and bring joy to people who work with them.

[Ryan Warner]

That is Kathy Fieber of Littleton. After a budget Hearing last week, CPR's Benta Berkeland covers the state capitol and spoke with Bazi Kanani.

[Bazi Kanani]

We've talked with you before about this giant budget hole. Colorado is now facing around a billion dollars for the fiscal year that starts this July. And now it sounds like lawmakers are really at the point of having to commit to specific cuts.

[Benta Berkeland]

Yes, that's absolutely right. What's happening right now is the budget committee, six members, they are voting on which cuts to include in their final budget proposal. That proposal will be sent to the full legislature in a few weeks.

[Bazi Kanani]

When it comes to people with autism and other developmental disabilities, what are lawmakers proposing?

[Benta Berkeland]

They're trying to spend less money on certain programs within Medicaid. So for instance, parents who care for a child with disabilities, they get a stipend from the state. Colorado's looking at capping that, basically paying parents for fewer hours of care, even though in reality it's a 24, 7 job. There will be some exceptions that people could apply for. And the state also wants to change a policy that automatically transitions children with developmental and intellectual disabilities into the commensurate program for adults. Instead, they would go on a wait list for access to this 24 hour, 7 day a week supervision.

[Bazi Kanani]

What kind of impact do caregivers say that this would have on them?

[Benta Berkeland]

Well, they say it'll be incredibly tough if this money gets cut. And they really worry about paying for things like enrichment opportunities, respite care, and they're worried that the state will put limits on therapy and interventions they say are critical for their children having to

[Bazi Kanani]

face those families who would be affected. I imagine these are hard choices for lawmakers.

[Benta Berkeland]

Definitely. The budget committee wasn't in unanimous agreement on all the votes, and they all had pretty pained expressions on their face. At one point someone looked choked up. So it was a very somber situation. I talked to the budget committee vice chair, Senator Jeff Bridges, a Democrat, after this hearing, and he told me he's having trouble sleeping because of the choices they're having to make.

[Ryan Warner]

This is bad for the people of Colorado. We're doing our best to cause the least harm. And our metric these days genuinely is are people going to die if we vote a particular way on these things? And it's an awful place to be, but we're trying to minimize harm.

[Bazi Kanani]

Why is Medicaid the part of the budget where lawmakers are looking for savings?

[Benta Berkeland]

Medicaid is becoming a bigger and bigger part of Colorado's budget. It's now about a third of state spending, and it's just expected to keep increasing. There's a number of factors driving that. More people enrolled in the program, more people using Medicaid, costs of services going up and costs to pay caregivers going up. So it's all converging.

[Bazi Kanani]

There have been some news stories in recent weeks that auditors and other state staff have found tens of millions of dollars of wasteful spending in Medicaid that could cause some people to question whether Medicaid costs are growing for legitimate reasons or simply because the state is not managing it well.

[Benta Berkeland]

Big picture here. Misspending in Medicaid isn't the problem that's driving this growth and costs. Those are those underlying factors like enrollment and usage. But it is very frustrating for everyone involved. I talked to family members who said they don't trust the state to manage Medicaid well, and they question whether all these painful cuts would be needed if some of this money wasn't misspent.

[Bazi Kanani]

Where are lawmakers in the budget process now? How soon will they have to commit to these cuts?

[Benta Berkeland]

The budget committee should be sending the final budget proposal to the legislature in a few weeks. Lawmakers will have lots of amendments and efforts to undo some of these cuts. The bottom line is lawmakers will have to cut something. Colorado's constitution requires the legislature to pass a balance budget.

[Ryan Warner]

CPR public affairs reporter Benta Birkland there speaking with Colorado TODAY co host Bazi Kanani. Still to come so you want to be an artist? This is Colorado Matters From CPR News. It's Colorado Matters from CPR News, I'm Ryan Warner. Fruta artist Pavia Justinian has reached a personal milestone, a decade as a sculptor and muralist. You might remember her name from the fracas last fall around a piece some residents thought was inappropriate for downtown display. Well, ten years in, Justinian's been thinking about the life of a professional artist, why it's not the career mistake some might fear and why you don't need to be in Denver to do it. She spoke with our Western Slope producer, Tom Hess.

[Tom Hess]

It's been something of a hobby horse, I guess you would say, of yours. The myths around making a career in art. How did this become a focus for you?

[Pavia Justinian]

So it was actually Grand Junction High School asked me to come do what they call pitch your profession to the students there. Basically, I kind of started thinking about some of the things that I would have liked to know when I was in high school about being a full time artist. I've always really loved art, but, you know, a lot of people in my life felt like that wasn't really going to be like a secure career path. And I totally get why, you know, it comes from a place of love and all that. But I didn't really like seriously start thinking about that for myself for a long time. And I think a lot of people are the same way. You know, they maybe they really love art, but they think that they can't or shouldn't do it for some reason. And so I wanted to kind of dispel some of those myths of, like, what it's really like to be a professional artist.

[Tom Hess]

What do you remember a little more specifically about some of the conversations you were having as you have to make that awful switch from, I guess I have to pick a profession and go get a job down at the business factory. Now, what do you remember about the conversations? Thinking about art or maybe stuff that you would do instead of art?

[Pavia Justinian]

So my first job was working at a nursing home, and I kind of just stuck with that. You know, it was a good first job, but I stuck with it through college and even a little bit after college, just because I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But when I went to college, I was like, well, you know, maybe I'll be an art teacher, because then I could kind of do art, but, you know, I could also have a little bit more job security. And I actually went pretty far down that path. I got as far as, like, shadowing another teacher, and I just really kind of realized that, like, the classroom setting wasn't for me. And at that point, I kind of. I think I wrote this big letter to, like, all my education professors that, like, I'm not doing this anymore. Thanks so much. You know, and I kind of just went for doing just the art major. And even at that time, I was like, I don't really know if I can make this into a career, but I want to take more art classes.

[Tom Hess]

What advice didn't you get that you wanted at that time in terms of how to turn this passion into something that manifests as a rent check?

[Pavia Justinian]

Eventually, they even had a class that I took, but it was something like, you know, kind of like the business of art, like, trying to turn art into a business. And I don't know, mainly, they kind of told you how to make a Facebook page. There's so much more to it than that.

[Tom Hess]

Like, well, give me an example.

[Pavia Justinian]

So I feel like, for me, my ability to write has actually been really helpful. Writing is a way of communicating your thoughts to people. And I think, like, a lot of people aren't necessarily seeing your thoughts behind the art unless you tell it to them. So writing about my work and, like, writing artist statements and applying for shows, like, all of those things kind of helped me learn how to talk about my work. And I think being able to talk about your work is probably one of the most important things for being a professional artist.

[Tom Hess]

What was the learning curve like in terms of Figuring out how to present these ideas and your work in a way that would work, translate to shows, to grants, anything like that.

[Pavia Justinian]

Honestly, I got a lot of those skills in school. In school, you have maybe like an essay question, you know, and it's like, oh, talk about this piece of art from this angle, or talk about this piece of history from through this lens or whatever. And that's essentially what applying for art shows is like. It's like, okay, I have this piece that I made, and maybe I was thinking this or that when I made it, but when you're applying for this show, they have a certain lens that they want you to look at it through. And so you have to think about, okay, how can I look at my work through their lens of what they want for the show and be able to talk about it in that way.

[Tom Hess]

You grew up in the Grand Valley. Your art is all over the Grand Valley, but it's also all over the state, particularly in creative fields. And even not. I get the sense that there is this idea that you have to go to the Front Range to make your fortune, or even further than that. What do you make of that instinct that people have to go elsewhere in order to develop these types of careers?

[Pavia Justinian]

I think it's really sad, honestly. I know some people, they really want to move away from their hometown, and I think that's great. If that's really what you want to do, more power to you, you should do that. But I think so many people move away from their hometown because they feel like they have to. And there's actually a lot of opportunities, even right here in the Grand Valley, for artists. And I've been really lucky to benefit from that word of mouth. Like, people around here know that I do art, and when art opportunities come up, they say, hey, Pavia, did you think about applying for this? And stuff? So it's really great to just be here in my hometown.

[Tom Hess]

What are the steps for somebody who is just kind of starting out, maybe doing maker's markets, those sorts of things, and is looking to get to that. Getting a mural showing up in some of these public art shows, options like that being just thought of as like, oh, that's the artist we should go to, because we've seen their workaround.

[Pavia Justinian]

I think it all depends on putting yourself out there and really looking at the work that you've done and thinking about how that can translate to a mural or some kind of a bigger public art piece. And it may be in a small way at first, and you want to apply for everything. That you can. And I think the more that you apply for things, there is a lot of rejection at first, and, you know, even later in your career, there might be some rejection. You know, I mean, that's just part of. That's part of the game.

[Tom Hess]

You've been at this for about a decade now.

[Pavia Justinian]

Yep.

[Tom Hess]

Do you remember the spot in that timeline when it kind of felt like, oh, this is my job. Was it day one or was it a little while in that you realized, like, oh, I guess this is just what I'm putting on my tax returns from now on out?

[Pavia Justinian]

Yeah. So I went full time with Art in 2016, and it was definitely scary at first. It can even still be a little scary sometimes, but it was pretty scary at first just because I had had a regular day job before that. I am pretty frugal and try to save money and things like that. So I was used to seeing the numbers in my bank account go up or at least not down. And then, you know, when I did quit to do art full time in 2016, I would just watch those numbers go down, down, down all the time. And, you know, it was pretty scary. And I did think, you know, maybe this is not for me. Maybe I'm gonna have to go back and do a day job again. But I got lucky. I didn't have to do that. And I would say, like, 2020 was kind of the turning point where it was like I was getting enough regular work that I didn't feel like I had to worry about it. Cause at first, I kind of just spent down my savings. That's pretty much what I did, but. And then 2022, I got a project doing the Redlands Roundabout. I made a bunch of rams for the Redlands Roundabout. And that was, like, really kind of a good pinnacle career point.

[Tom Hess]

Do you remember hearing from people once that initially went in? Cause it's a huge installation. It's not small by any standards. Do you remember what you heard from friends, colleagues, family after that had been installed?

[Pavia Justinian]

I heard mostly a lot of support. You know, I think a couple people were telling me that some folks on Nextdoor didn't like it, but I'm not really on there. So, yeah, from what I hear, I think people like to complain a lot on there. I don't know. But I got a lot of positive reception from it, and I still do. You know, I've gotten some new patrons from that. They say, oh, we drive through your roundabout every day. It's so great. You know, we'd love to have this or that piece at our house.

[Tom Hess]

You have a lot of public art features around, and working in public art strikes me as something that maybe comes with a different level of feedback than if you were just working on galleries. I guess public art means public feedback. What is that like?

[Pavia Justinian]

So I actually think one of the things that college did prepare me for more was that level of, like, public analysis and feedback. We did these class critiques where everybody would put their work up and people would talk about it and stuff. And so I think I was already used to having my work out there a little bit more when I did become a professional artist. So I do think that kind of helped prepare me for it.

[Tom Hess]

How has the industry changed in the time that you've done it?

[Pavia Justinian]

I think social media has hugely changed the industry because, you know, I mean, a lot of my professors and, you know, just people I knew were telling me that, like, galleries were kind of the way to go for selling your work. And I even, like, made a trip over to Aspen to look at galleries and talk to people. And I think at the time I was like, I was a younger artist. I didn't have as much of that cohesive body of work that galleries seem to be looking for. But one thing I noticed, and I'm not saying it's everybody, but I noticed there is sometimes a bit of a disrespect for art. I actually noticed somebody was using someone's $8,000 painting as a doorstop. It was literally just on the ground. Yeah, I mean, I was like, I don't know about that, but I think social media, it really gives people so much more of an opportunity to put their own work out there. And, you know, you can have it up on your website or, you know, like, there's a lot more opportunity for people to market themselves.

[Tom Hess]

Pavia, thanks for the time.

[Pavia Justinian]

Yeah, thanks.

[Ryan Warner]

Fruta artist Pavya Justinian speaking with Western Slope producer Tom Hess in our studio on Main street in Grand Junction. Denver is one of the few cities that manages its own bison herd. The youngest of them just left for new homes. CPR's Molly Cruz was in Genesee park as the creatures were gifted to local tribes.

[Molly Cruz]

Snow fell in thick flurries, settling over the foothills and the iconic herd of more than 50 buffalo that call a 2,400acre park home. This park is home to Denver's very own herd of American bison. Called buffalo by native communities. It's one of the few herds in the country owned and managed by a city. You've probably spotted them before grazing on the Park's. Hillside along I 70, Buffalo were almost

[Tom Hess]

extinct, you know, and the same way with our native people.

[Natalie Pennington]

We were almost wiped out too, you

[Tom Hess]

know, but now we're taking care of

[Ryan Warner]

of our buffalo and we're coming back

[Tom Hess]

and our native people are coming back too.

[Molly Cruz]

Robert Simpson is a council member with the Northern Cheyenne tribe in southeastern Montana. He was among the dozens of indigenous leaders and community members who gathered in a crowded hay barn to sing and share prayers and stories. But this wasn't just a chance gathering. In many ways, this was a homecoming.

[Natalie Pennington]

So we want safe travels for these bison to go back to their homeland.

[Tom Hess]

We want safe travels for our relatives.

[Molly Cruz]

34 of the youngest bison were sorted into pens, their shaggy coats still speckled with snowflakes and loaded into trailers.

[Tom Hess]

And they're going to run through.

[Molly Cruz]

This is the fifth year Denver has opted to donate its yearlings or young bison to indigenous tribes instead of auctioning them. So far, Denver has given more than 170 bison to 12 tribal nations or non profits across the country, including the Northern Arapaho and East Shoshone tribes. This year, the Northern Cheyenne tribe as well as the Navajo Nation in New Mexico and Arizona were the tribal government selected by the city to receive the bison. Scott Gilmour is the former deputy Executive Parks director.

[Tom Hess]

Denver did not start when it was colonized. Denver was a part of, you know, the Cheyenne and Arapaho, the Ute. It was their land. It's always been their land. And so to be able to return some of those buffalo back to those tribes and return those buffalo back home as their relatives, you know, it just means so much.

[Molly Cruz]

Currently, the program is scheduled to end in 2030, but Gilmour's wife, Denver City Councilwoman Stacey Gilmour, has plans to propose a city ordinance to make the program evergreen and ensure Denver's buffalo returned tribal lands. I'm Molly Cruz, CPR News.

[Ryan Warner]

And that is colorado matters for now. With thanks to my friends, sandy butulga,

[Tom Hess]

tyler bender, carl bielek, anthony cotton, pete kramer, andrea dukakis, zan huckpechone, matt herz, tom hess, michael hughes, pedro lumbra, shane

[Pavia Justinian]

rumsey, haley sanchez, chandra, thomas whitfield.

[Ryan Warner]

And I'm ryan warner. Thanks for spending time with us. My friends at cpr news and krcc.

[Natalie Pennington]

You got a friend in me. You got a friend in me. You got trouble.