March 25, 2026: How magic mushrooms are made; Courts rule on vaccine guidance; restricting gambling

Summary

Colorado Matters – March 25, 2026: How Magic Mushrooms Are Made, Courts Rule on Vaccine Guidance, Restricting Gambling

Podcast: Colorado Matters
Hosts: Ryan Warner, Chandra Thomas Whitfield
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Colorado Matters explores several major stories impacting Colorado: the emerging medical psilocybin (magic mushroom) industry; the confusion resulting from federal vaccine policy changes and the courts’ response; state-level efforts to rein in gambling and its real-life effects; a debate over live music noise; and the unlikely legacy of Denver's “worst” park. The episode features in-depth interviews, personal stories, and legislative debate highlights.

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1. Inside Colorado’s Psilocybin Mushroom Industry

Exploring a Groundbreaking Business (00:04–07:35)

Andrea Dukakis visits “Silutions,” one of Colorado’s first licensed cultivators and manufacturers of psilocybin mushrooms. CEO Rhonda DeSantis shares the personal journey and scientific process behind legal, medical-grade psilocybin production.

Key Points

• Facility Tour and Cleanliness:
  Dukakis describes surprisingly sterile, high-tech conditions. Equipment and visitors must be sanitized.

  “Before I could check out the mushrooms growing, the company's founder and CEO, Rhonda DeSantis, gave me a full body hooded white suit and mask to wear and she wiped down my recording equipment.” (00:49)

• Cultivation Process:
  Liquid cultures produce mycelium in jars, later transferred to grain and compost blocks for mushroom growth.

  “That's the start of the mycelium growth.” — Rhonda DeSantis (02:38)

• Variety and Medical Potential:
  Silutions grows 17 strains, customizing to address specific conditions, from complex PTSD to end-of-life anxiety.

  “The mushroom Purple Envy… ideal for complex PTSD trauma patients, sexual assault survivors and domestic violence victims, as well as anyone who's had longstanding trauma.” — Rhonda DeSantis (06:16)

• Dosing Challenges and Solutions:
  The active psilocybin content can wildly vary between mushrooms—even on the same block. Their manufacturing process ensures precision through homogenization.

  “We've seen one mushroom grow right next to another where one has 30 milligrams in it and the other one has four.” — Rhonda DeSantis (05:30)

Notable Quotes

• “It was really that moment that I went, I think this psilocybin really does something, and I need to bring it to the world as much as I can. I have to help people.” — Rhonda DeSantis (04:38)
• “In the legal setting, it’s actually quite safe and controlled.” — Rhonda DeSantis (07:01)

Timestamps

• Personal origin story: (03:44–04:36)
• Patient impact: (06:16–06:55)
• Challenge of public perception & safety standards: (07:01–07:35)

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2. State and Local Battles: Live Music and Noise Regulation

The Noise Debate at the Colorado Capitol (09:01–12:59)

Dan Boyce covers the political and community battle over outdoor concert noise restrictions, rooted in a Colorado Supreme Court decision.

Key Points

• Background:
  After Salida residents sued over noisy concerts, the Supreme Court ruled cities couldn’t override state noise statutes.

• Senate Bill 98:
  Proposed to allow local governments authority to issue permits for outdoor music events, garnering bipartisan and municipal support.

  “The officials closest to the people, locally elected leaders, should have the tools and authority to manage these issues.” — Sen. Larry Liston (10:07)

• Supporters vs. Opponents:
  Advocates argue live music is an economic driver and cultural staple.
  Opponents see noise as a form of pollution akin to water and air quality.

  “Noise pollution should be treated no differently.” — Daniel Frye (11:45) “How would you like that in your home for four or five hours several days a week throughout the summer?” — Dave Donaldson (12:35)

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3. Vaccine Policy: Rulings, Confusion and Consequences

Impact of Federal Chaos on Local Health (12:59–22:18)

Pediatric infectious disease expert Dr. Sean O’Leary discusses with John Daly how court decisions blocking the Trump administration’s controversial vaccine guidance have not erased widespread confusion among families and providers.

Key Points

• Court Ruling:
  Blocked implementation of changes not based on science, but public confusion remains.

  “The bad news is the confusion is still already out there for a lot of families and even clinicians.” — Dr. Sean O'Leary (13:51)

• Colorado’s Position:
  The state passed measures to uphold evidence-based vaccine policy despite federal turbulence.

  “We here in Colorado, many of us got together to... deal with all of the chaos around vaccines coming from the federal government.” — Dr. Sean O'Leary (15:07)

• Direct Impact:
  Lower vaccination rates and resurgent illnesses (measles, pertussis, severe flu season).

  “We are seeing in real time the impacts that unfortunately our federal government is having on trust in vaccination.” — Dr. Sean O’Leary (17:06)

• Advice to Parents and Policymakers:
  Trust pediatricians and the American Academy of Pediatrics’ independent vaccine schedule.

  “The House of Medicine is really in lockstep on this issue.” — Dr. Sean O’Leary (17:53)

• ACIP Critique:
  The federal vaccine advisory panel is no longer functioning as a trusted scientific group.

  “Now it is really just become theater for anti-vaccine misinformation.” — Dr. Sean O’Leary (19:31)

Notable Quotes

• “That's the real tragedy here, is that, you know, these families are just trying to do what's right for their kids, and they're being led to not vaccinate their children, which is inevitably going to lead to children suffering.” — Dr. Sean O’Leary (16:00)
• “As someone who’s attended pretty much every one of these meetings…they are not discussing actual science.” — Dr. Sean O’Leary (20:24)

Timestamps

• Court ruling commentary: (13:28–13:48)
• Effects on vaccination trends: (16:43–17:46)
• Criticism of ACIP: (19:31–22:18)

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4. The Realities and Risks of Expanding Gambling

Legislative Pushback and Personal Stories (22:59–43:22)

A multi-part look at Colorado’s rapidly expanding gambling industry—legislative efforts to restrict it, personal experience from a recovering gambling addict, and analysis from those treating problem gambling.

Key Points

• Gambling Expansion:
  Since legalization in 2019, sports betting and online lottery have exploded, bringing in significant revenue but also increasing addiction.

  “Colorado lawmakers have proposed the most significant rollback of phone based gaming since the apps exploded onto the scene about seven years ago.” — Ben Marcus (23:46)

• Legislative Proposals:

  • Restrict TV betting ads
  • Ban betting on individual player performance
  • Add deposit limits and roll back full online lottery games

  “If we want to take prop bets out, we owe it to the voters to go back to them and ask them to take that part out.” — Senator Janice Marchman (25:04)

• Revenue vs. Harm Debate:
  Proponents point to tax benefits supporting parks, water projects; critics warn of social costs due to addiction and bankruptcies.

• Individual Experience:
  Zach Everett recounts childhood exposure to gambling, escalation in college, severe debt, repeated treatment, and the difficulty of recovery.

  “The desperation mode was insane. And then further than that, I started to ask friends and family for money and then promise them that I would pay them back on Friday, too.” — Zach Everett (32:19)

• Trends and Treatment:
  Therapist Jamie Glick notes a surge in problem gambling since 2020, especially among young men.

  “Between 60 and 80% of the [help line] calls are from young males.” — Jamie Glick (34:37)
  “There’s no drug test for a gambling addiction…so you can hide that for a long time.” — Jamie Glick (37:16)

• Recovery Challenges and Suggestions:
  Self-exclusion, increased financial transparency, and policy changes like eliminating credit-based gambling are discussed.

  “You really can’t get help until you’re completely honest with everybody in your life and yourself.” — Zach Everett (37:54) “If we can eliminate the ability to gamble on credit, I think that would help out quite a bit.” — Jamie Glick (41:59)
  “Nobody gambles at 3 o’clock in the morning unless they have a problem.” (Jamie quoting Zach Everett) (42:11)

Timestamps

• Legislative context: (23:16–27:25)
• Zach Everett’s journey: (28:01–32:36)
• Therapist’s perspective & public health warning: (33:07–36:34)
• Patterns among young men: (36:43)
• Policy & recovery recommendations: (41:14–43:16)

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5. Colorado Wonders: The Legacy of Phil Milstein Park

Denver’s “Worst” Park and Its Namesake (44:19–48:52)

Paolo Chalceda investigates the history behind Phil Milstein Park, examining why a champion of Denver’s downtown has his name on a neglected, noisy green space.

Key Points

• Historical Legacy:
  Phil Milstein was a leader in Denver’s redevelopment, earning the moniker “Father of the Mall.”

• Irony of the Park:
  Once envisioned as a beautiful riverside area, Milstein Park is now derided for its isolation and decay.

  “First of all, it's so shabby, and I don't ever recall it being a nice park where you really want to come and recreate.” — Sally Jones (44:44)

• Calls for a New Honor:
  City officials suggest renaming Skyline Park in Milstein’s honor to better reflect his contributions.

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Memorable Moments and Quotes (Selected)

• DeSantis on Personal Healing:

  “I could take a breath for the first time in over a year.” (04:10)

• Dr. O’Leary on Vaccine Confusion:

  “Now they're saying...there’s controversy around vaccines, so I just want to wait for now.” (16:00)

• Zach Everett on Recovery Honesty:

  “You really can't get help until you're completely honest with everybody in your life and yourself.” (37:54)

• Jamie Glick on Detecting Gambling Problems:

  “There’s no drug test for a gambling addiction.” (37:16)

• Dave Donaldson on Noise:

  “How would you like that in your home for four or five hours several days a week throughout the summer?” (12:35)

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Episode Structure and Timestamps

• Psilocybin Mushrooms in Colorado (00:04–07:35)
• Live Music Noise Regulation Debate (09:01–12:59)
• Vaccine Policy and Parental Confusion (12:59–22:18)
• Restricting and Treating Gambling (22:59–43:22)
• Phil Milstein Park's Legacy (44:19–48:52)

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Tone and Language

Informative, compassionate, occasionally personal; the episode skillfully blends personal testimony, expert analysis, and policy debate. The speakers are thoughtful, candid, and grounded in their respective experiences and areas of expertise.

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This summary captures the episode’s essential discussions, major perspectives, and key moments, providing a comprehensive understanding for those who have not listened.

Transcript

[Andrea Dukakis]

A healing experience with the psychedelic psilocybin changed a Colorado woman's life and career.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

It was really that moment that I went, I think this psilocybin really does something, and I need to bring it to the world as much as I can. I have to help people.

[Andrea Dukakis]

A conversation with the owner of one of the first companies to grow and manufacture mushrooms for psilocybin assisted therapy. Then the courts pushed back on the Trump administration administration's vaccination agenda. But doctors in Colorado say the confusion's already taken hold.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

And that's the real tragedy here, is that, you know, these families are just trying to do what's right for their kids and they're being led to not vaccinate their children, which is inevitably going to lead to children suffering.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And later, state lawmakers try to rein in sports betting. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Ann. Andrea Dukakis. I'm not sure what I expected when I recently visited one of Colorado's first licensed cultivators and manufacturers of psilocybin, better known as magic mushrooms. But it was pretty eye opening for one. It was a highly sterile environment with strict rules to avoid contamination. Before I could check out the mushrooms growing, the company's founder and CEO, Rhonda DeSantis, gave me a full body hooded white suit and mask to wear and she wiped down my recording equipment.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

We'll just wipe it down with like an alcohol pad. Is that okay with you?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yep.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

Okay. That should be okay. All right.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Okay.

[Andrea Dukakis]

The Name of DeSantis Co. Silutions is a play on the word psilocybin, which is the psychedelic component of magic mushrooms. My visit to the facility in avon was for CPR's ongoing coverage of Colorado's evolving psychedelic landscape, called the Trip. I thought the mushrooms might grow in long rows in a huge garden bed. But the company's cultivation room looked more like the laboratory of a mad scientist, though a much more orderly version. On one side were neat rows of labeled jars filled with liquid.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

If you can see, we're looking at a jar now, it's a clear mason jar with liquid in it. And it's got a light golden hue to it. And if you look up in there,

[Andrea Dukakis]

you can see kind of little kind of pieces of something.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

Yeah, it's almost like someone soaked a cotton ball in here. Right, right. And it's kind of floating around. That's the start of the micellum growth.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Each jar contained a liquid culture where the mycelium, the root like part of the mushroom Grew after they're transferred into containers of grain to grow some more. Then that's mixed into a compost like matter often formed into bl and the mushrooms grow and mature from the blocks. Desantis pointed out some of the different strains.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

You can see this is the bluey ghost. You can see where it's got that blue kind of ghost like skirt on it here at the bottom. And some of these are about ready to harvest. This is one of those penis envy that's up there and you can kind of see through that box.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Yep.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

And why is it called? It's the shape of it, the way it comes in. It actually has a very phallic shape to it.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Okay, interesting. Desantis belief in the power of mushrooms came during the course of a 13 year custody battle.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

And after having to retell the same story that I've had to tell the courts multiple times, I had some pretty raw trauma triggers re exposed. And I had a very dear friend say, come take a small dose of me. And I did take that small dose and it was an instant. And I just could. I could take a breath for the first time in over a year.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Desantis says she repeated that same small dose three more times over the course of a year.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

And by the end of that, my ex husband showed up in an event for my child. And I walked past him and said, hey, how are you doing? And walked right on by. And then I got about 10ft from him and went, oh, I don't care. And it was such a relief and sigh of like, oh, this works.

[Andrea Dukakis]

That was a turning point for her.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

It was really that moment that I went, I think this psilocybin really does something, and I need to bring it to the world as much as I can. I have to help people.

[Andrea Dukakis]

DeSantis became a licensed psychedelic facilitator, that is a therapist who works with people during guided psychedelic trips. She started researching how to grow and manufacture psilocybin. All of that coincided with Colorado's new law allowing people to take the drug at licensed healing centers in the state. And about a year ago, DeSantis started building out the company. After the mushrooms are harvested, they're dried and ground to a fine powder, then homogenized and tested. Desantis says the process is critical since each mushroom, even of the same strain, can have different amounts of psilocybin.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

We've seen one mushroom grow right next to another mushroom where one has 30 milligrams in it and the other one has four. So when people dose in whole body mushrooms. You get an estimate of what your dose could be, but there is no precision dosing.

[Andrea Dukakis]

The company's approach allows for measured doses of the powder to be put into capsules or mixed into gummies, tea or chocolate truffles. Dilutions produces 17 strains of psilocybin. The products can only be sold to the state's legal healing centers, and Desantis says they've tried to figure out which strains meet the needs of specific patient populations. Like the mushroom Purple Envy, it's ideal

[Rhonda DeSantis]

for complex PTSD trauma patients, sexual assault survivors and domestic violence victims, as well as anyone who's had longstanding trauma.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Some clinical studies have shown psilocybin assisted therapy may ease the fear of death in terminally ill patients. DeSantis says Dilutions has developed a strain for people dealing with end of life diagnoses like terminal cancer.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

They're dealing with not only grief of loss of the life that they had, they're often experiencing great pain. There's a lot of anxiety about the future and there's a lot of depression that comes with it.

[Andrea Dukakis]

DeSantis says. It's pretty common for people to be apprehensive about taking psilocybin.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

Maybe they had some experience back in the day and, you know, a quote, unquote bad trip potentially. But in the legal setting, it's actually quite safe and controlled.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And in this legal setting, DeSantis wants solutions to meet the high bar that any drug manufacturer has to meet.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

We really want to make sure that we're moving psilocybin into the medical realm and not just something that is grown in someone's basement next to their dirty tennis shoes or in someone's garage in a tent.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Silution says it tries hard to keep the cost of the drug reasonable, despite the time required to grow, manufacture and test the product. Still, patients can pay several thousand dollars for psilocybin assisted therapy. Silutions says some patient populations might be eligible for discounted prices. My visit to the company located in Avon, Colorado, was for the trip. A CPR news series on Colorado's new psychedelics movement. Rhonda DeSantis is the CEO and founder of Silutions, one of the state's first licensed cultivators and manufacturers of psychedelic mushrooms. Read our ongoing [e-mail] thetrip. Here's a debate on one side, the right to peace and quiet, on the other, the economic and cultural importance of outdoor concerts. CPR's Dan Boyce takes us to the state capitol, where a Senate bill would give local governments authority to circumvent state noise regulations.

[Dan Boyce]

This all goes back to a Colorado Supreme Court case from last September. In that case, Salida resident Matthew Hobbs sued the city and for giving a permit to a downtown bar to host

[John Daly]

live outdoor music, Salida city council approved 60 concerts per season, roughly two to three times per week.

[Dan Boyce]

Hobbs lives in a neighborhood near that bar, and he argued the concerts violated statewide noise limits for residential areas. Limits set in Colorado's 1971 Noise Abatement

[John Daly]

act recognize excessive noise threatens the serenity and quality of life of Colorado residents and cause real physiological and psychological harm.

[Dan Boyce]

And the high court agreed, ruling communities like the city of Salida could not issue such permits. Hobbs told his story to the Senate Local Government and Housing Committee during a hearing for Senate Bill 98. If passed, it would change that 1971 law to explicitly allow cities and counties to issue those permits.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

The officials closest to the people, locally elected leaders, should have the tools and authority to manage these issues.

[Dan Boyce]

That's bill lead sponsor, Republican Senator Larry Liston from Colorado Springs. The effort has bipartisan support and the backing of groups ranging from the Colorado Municipal League to the State Brewers Guild. Advocates argue the Colorado Supreme Court's ruling sets a harmful precedent. They say communities have been issuing permits like these for decades for music festivals, for brewery patios.

[Paolo Chalceda]

My name is Holly Rogan. I'm the mayor of the town of Lyons and I'm here today in strong support of this bill.

[Dan Boyce]

Mayor Rogan says the business climate in Lyons depends on seasonal tourism driven by summer events like the Rocky Mountain Folks Festival.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Lions has a unique topography, which means

[Paolo Chalceda]

that sound carries much differently than it would in, say, Longmont or in Denver. Good noise regulation is not one size fits all.

[Dan Boyce]

Supporters say the bill protects live music as a cultural and economic lifeblood. Without the ability to issue permits like these, they argue, one disgruntled and litigious neighbor could have veto authority over any event or venue. They don't like. Senate Bill 98 opponents call that hyperbolic. But they say, well, yeah, that really is the point of the Noise Abatement Act. They say noise is pollution. Colorado Springs resident Daniel Frye water and

[Andrea Dukakis]

air quality standards don't allow local opt

[Jamie Glick]

outs for polluters, and noise pollution should

[Andrea Dukakis]

be treated no differently.

[Dan Boyce]

Frey lives less than a mile from this whole issue's elephant in the room, the Ford Amphitheater, Colorado Springs first major outdoor music venue. It opened a couple summers ago, right next to miles of sprawling neighborhoods. Many opponents say this bill is designed specifically so powerful for profit businesses like the Ford amphitheater can make money at the expense of those neighborhoods.

[John Daly]

I am sure all of you on this committee have been in your car,

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

stopped at a light when another vehicle with very loud booming bass pulls up

[John Daly]

somewhere around you and you can feel it in your car. How do you like it?

[Dan Boyce]

Colorado Springs City Councilman Dave Donaldson, he has long sided with the neighbors in this debate.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

How would you like that in your

[John Daly]

home for four or five hours several days a week throughout the summer? That is what you are telling thousands of homeowners you are willing to subject

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

them to if you vote yes on this.

[Dan Boyce]

The bill moved out of committee on a 5 to 2 vote and overwhelmingly passed out of the Senate. It's not clear yet when the House will take it up in Colorado Springs. Dan boyce, CPR News and I'm Andrea Dukakis.

[Andrea Dukakis]

This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Andrea Dukakis. A judge last week blocked the overhaul of federal recommendations for childhood vaccines. Colorado pediatrician and infectious diseases researcher Sean o' Leary sat down with CPR health reporter John Daly to talk about the ruling and what impact it might have here.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

It was good news for sure. We've had a lot of bad news coming about vaccines because of all the chaos coming from hhs. So this was a nice bright spot. I can't say I was surprised. My understanding is that the case is on very solid legal ground in terms of the rules that were broken, in terms of everything that was done. I'm no lawyer, but that's my understanding.

[John Daly]

What do you think the implications of the ruling are?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

So the good news is this prevents HHS from implementing a lot of the changes that they had been trying to make, which were, you know, really not informed by any kind of science or evidence, but really more out of a sort of an anti vaccine ideology. And so that's the good news. The bad news is the confusion is still already out there for a lot of families and even clinicians who've been just sort of watching this chaos from the federal government about vaccines unfold. So that is still something we're going to be dealing with, unfortunately.

[John Daly]

And I think the Department of Health and Human Services indicated they plan to appeal.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

I wouldn't be surprised if they appeal. I did read the judge's ruling and it was, to me it was pretty strong. And I'm not sure exactly on what grounds they'll appeal because they were clearly in the wrong on the things that

[John Daly]

they were doing Just so folks are clear, this lawsuit had to do with the American Academy of Pediatrics and other major medical groups, but not the state of Colorado, which has some other litigation going on regarding vaccines, Correct?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Correct. This is a different lawsuit, but Colorado

[John Daly]

has been pushing back on the changes being made by this administration regarding vaccines. Would you say that this ruling kind of validates Colorado's position?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I would say. I mean, I think we here in Colorado, many of us got together to, you know, try and work out how are we going to deal with all of the chaos around vaccines coming from the federal government. Part of that process was working towards changes in policy. And so there have been now a couple of laws that are either have been passed or about to be passed to help deal with this. You know, I think what the vast majority, not only of legislators, but, you know, parents and adult patients as well, recognize that vaccines are valuable. They prevent disease, they prevent suffering. And so I think Colorado's efforts have really been that we're trying to, you know, maintain access for vaccines for Coloradans.

[John Daly]

What kind of impacts are you seeing regarding what you were describing before? Confusion amongst the public. You're seeing signs of that?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yeah. You know, I talk with a lot of general pediatricians who are primary care. I used to be a primary care pediatrician myself for many years now I just do inpatient infectious diseases. But in talking with my colleagues, really across the country, friends and colleagues about what they're dealing with, there's a lot of confusion out there. And unfortunately, what they're seeing is, you know, some families who aren't necessarily concerned about vaccines before now they're saying, you know, they're hearing sort of the headlines saying, well, I hear there's controversy around vaccines, so I just want to wait for now. And that's the real tragedy here, is that, you know, these families are just trying to do what's right for their kids, and they're being led to not vaccinate their children, which is inevitably going to lead to children suffering.

[John Daly]

We've been seeing a lot of measles spreading around the country. Colorado had 36 cases last year, way more than any recent year. We've had a very busy flu season, a lot of flu cases. Would you say that the confusion is having a direct impact on what we're seeing in terms of the spread of disease and then also about vaccination rates?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. That's what this is all about. I think that seems to be the goal of HHS at this moment. Is to sow distrust in vaccines. And they are having a profound impact doing that. And we're unfortunately seeing the results of it. Most cases here in Colorado, as well as in the US and many decades of measles, we're seeing a lot more pertussis than we had been seeing. That's also known as whooping cough. And then of course, we've had a really bad flu year. And lower vaccination coverage for flu is certainly helping to fuel that. So, yeah, we are seeing in real time the impacts that unfortunately our federal government is having on trust in vaccination.

[John Daly]

Given what's happening, what is your best advice to policymakers, providers and parents?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

First of all, for parents, I think talking with your pediatrician or your family doctor, if you have any questions about this. I think most of the primary care docs that I know are following this pretty closely and we are all in alignment. What the evidence suggests is the right thing to do. The American Academy of Pediatrics, as you may know, came out with its own vaccination schedule, different than what the federal government had been recommending. That really is based in science and evidence and what's in the best interest of children. And that schedule was endorsed by pretty much all the major other organizations that are involved in pediatric vaccination and then ultimately endorsed by over 200 other organizations after the schedule came out. So the House of Medicine is really in lockstep on this issue. We believe in science, we believe in protecting children and protecting families from vaccine preventable diseases, and we are going to continue to make those recommendations. In terms of policymakers, it is a bit chaotic right now. I think here in Colorado, we're doing a good job trying to respond to some of the federal chaos. And I know that some other states are doing the same thing. You know, the ultimate goal here, though, is to bring things back to a place where the House of Medicine, all the professional societies, are working in close collaboration with our federal government to work in the best interest of the US Population and not be at odds. That's the goal here.

[John Daly]

And someday perhaps going back to the system that we had before. Is that the plan? I mean, I think with this ruling, it sounds like acip, the key federal vaccine advisory panel, has postponed their next meeting.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Right. What I will say about acip, you know, historically it was looked at really as a model from around the world as how you make really good vaccine policy for a country. Now it is really just become theater for anti vaccine misinformation. It's not so much about policy anymore as Just a place to sow distrust and, you know, over amplify specific safety concerns or even, you know, spread false safety concerns. That's what we've been seeing out of this acip. So the sooner that group gets back to a group that we can trust as Americans, the better.

[John Daly]

And they would maintain that they stick to the science as well? I think they say that or they're restoring it to what they see as more viable science or trustworthy science. What's your response to what they say about that?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yeah, as someone who's attended pretty much every one of these meetings for the last 10 years and seen how actual science is discussed and seeing what's going on now, that's complete nonsense. They can say that, but they are not discussing actual science.

[John Daly]

Yeah, I mean, it seems like, you know, it's one thing to sort of cherry pick a study, but the way that this traditionally has been reviewed is that you have groups like yours that are reviewing vaccines and there's a whole process where various committees are reviewing the vaccines and weighing in on the safety and the efficacy and that's not happening anymore. Is that your view?

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Not my view. That's the facts. You know, if you watch any of these meetings, if you're not somebody who has seen them before, it might be a little bit hard to follow. But really, let me give you an example. Historically, the way that scientific presentations would happen is often it would be a CDC scientist, occasionally an outside expert, but usually somebody who, you know, spends their career on a given topic and that would be that person and or group of individuals from that division would present the science behind whether it was vaccine safety or vaccine effectiveness, you name it. But you know, in one of the more recent ACIP meetings, they didn't have any actual CDC scientists present. Rather they had known anti vaccine activists doing those quote unquote scientific presentations, including giving roughly two and a half hours of agenda time to a well known anti vaccine lawyer who's widely known to spread falsehoods about vaccines and has very clear financial conflicts of interest. Yet he was the one that was presenting information about the childhood vaccine schedule. So as I said, it is theater for anti vaccine falsehoods. They're really not spending time discussing actual science.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Dr. Sean O' Leary is a professor of pediatrics and Infectious Diseases at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus and Children's Hospital Colorado. His research focuses on vaccine preventable diseases. He spoke with CPR health reporter John Daly. I'm Andrea Dukakis. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Andrea Dukakis. Colorado used to be known as a limited gambling state with casinos confined to a few mountain towns. All that changed in 2019 when voters approved sports betting on phones. It's become a multi billion dollar business. Now. The state lottery also wants to expand to phones, but some state lawmakers are trying to push back. CPR's Ben Marcus has the story.

[Ben Marcus]

At Stoney's Uptown Joint, a sports bar in Denver. About a dozen TVs are tuned to March Madness at the bar. Dave Vandeport says he placed bets on sports before it was legalized in Colorado. He used to use offshore betting. Now he plays on Colorado's regulated phone apps. Vandeport was not pleased to hear that that Colorado lawmakers want to limit the bets he can place. He said Prohibition doesn't work.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Give me one prohibition that has ever worked. One. Give me one.

[Ben Marcus]

Colorado lawmakers have proposed the most significant rollback of phone based gaming since the apps exploded onto the scene about seven years ago. One bill targets sports gambling. It would limit television advertising of sports books.

[John Daly]

New DraftKings customers turn a $5 bet

[Dan Boyce]

into 200 instantly in bonus bets, the CR.

[Ben Marcus]

It would also prohibit bets on individual player performance and set deposit limits. The bill is sponsored by State Senator Matt Ball. Here he is at a recent committee hearing on the bill. It is the only addiction where you

[Zach Everett]

think that the cure for your addiction is doing that thing one more time.

[Ben Marcus]

There's a growing body of research that states with legal sports gambling have more bankruptcies and auto loan defaults.

[Zach Everett]

Losses pile up so people double down and they double down until suddenly you can't pay your credit card anymore because you barely have enough money left to

[Ben Marcus]

pay the mortgage, he said. In the first year of sports betting in Colorado, calls to the problem gaming hotline jumped 45%. Senator Ball's bill would also prohibit prop bets. These are wagers tied to individual players, like how many points they'll score in a game. These bets are often tied together as a combination bet that is more difficult to win. Still, Senator Janice Marchman said voters approved these bets back in 2019.

[Andrea Dukakis]

If we want to take prop bets out, we owe it to the voters to go back to them and ask them to take that part out.

[Ben Marcus]

In the same Senate committee a week earlier, lawmakers debated rolling back a major expansion of the state lottery. Last year, lottery officials approved allowing credit cards and ilotttery fully online games that would look a lot like slot machines, according to state Senator Jeff Bridges and

[Zach Everett]

I think there's a significant difference between

[Paolo Chalceda]

the numbers right, the regular lotto and

[John Daly]

scratch tickets in something that looks like the games you play in a casino.

[Ben Marcus]

His bill would both prohibit credit cards and the fully online games. Lottery Commissioner Bill Clayton was frustrated that the Legislature is trying to roll back their changes. He said they haven't approved any digital online games yet, but he said that they would be much more limited than other states.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

We've worked really hard and diligently and took this very slowly to make sure that we're not creating what you're talking about, a casino in your hand.

[Ben Marcus]

Lottery delivers more than 150 million annually in revenue to outdoors groups, parks and trails and state wildlife authorities. Tom Seaver, director of the Colorado Lottery, said that in 2019, courier services started selling lottery tickets online. Last year, those sales accounted for more than $30 million.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

And that's a lot.

[John Daly]

And what that tells us again is that players have an appetite for that. They want to play online. So all we're doing is satisfying demand, he said.

[Ben Marcus]

The lottery must evolve to compete with things like sports gambling to continue to fund critical programs. Sports gambling revenue brought in more than $40 million in taxes last year, which goes to funding water projects. Proponents of gambling reminded lawmakers that there isn't any extra money. State budget and rolling back gambling will hurt tax collections. Senator Judy Amabile, a co sponsor on prohibiting ilotttery, said this tax money isn't free.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Having this available on your phone all day every day is going to turn out to be extremely harmful to a subset of the citizens of Colorado and we will pay the price here in

[Ben Marcus]

this building, she said. Eventually, state lawmakers will be faced with the cost of gambling addiction on people's lives. I'm Ben Marcus, CPR News.

[Andrea Dukakis]

The state's already using some gambling revenue to address gambling addiction. Jamie Glick is a therapist and president of the Problem Gambling Coalition of Colorado. The coalition uses money from sports betting to treat people like gambling. Zach Everett, who's been in recovery for gambling addiction. Everett grew up in Minnesota and now lives in Denver. We spoke in December. Welcome, Zach.

[Zach Everett]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And Jamie, thanks for being here.

[Jamie Glick]

Thanks for having us.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Zach, let's start with your story. I'm going to venture to say that many people are more familiar with drug and alcohol addiction than gambling addiction. What's your first memory of gambling?

[Zach Everett]

My first memory of gambling was probably going to the horse track back when I was a kid with my family. We would go, although I couldn't bet on the horses, because I wasn't legal age, but it was a family outing for us. So about once a month in the summertime we would go to Canterbury Park. It was a racetrack for horses and my dad and mom at the time were the only two that were able to bet on the horses, but kind of understood what it was. And I loved it. I was locked in pretty early on. It wasn't even really about the money back then, but just kind of the thought of picking somebody to win and then feeling good after you picked the right horse.

[Andrea Dukakis]

How did your gambling progress from there? Obviously you were young then you went off to college. Talk about that.

[Zach Everett]

Well, actually when I was in high school, the legal gambling age in Minnesota was 18. And I had an early birthday. So senior year, I turned 18 in early September. So I had that up until before I even went to college. I started going to the casinos as much as I possibly could. I mean, I was only bringing like 20 to 30 bucks, but we were going quite often. And then when we weren't at the casino running poker games at my friend's house. So for me, it actually started before I even went to college. Sports betting wasn't a thing though, so it was mostly blackjack, baccarat, those types of things. And then sports betting came to me probably my junior year of college when we had a bookie at school. And it was more casual then, but definitely got into it a little bit then.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And this wasn't something you were doing online?

[Zach Everett]

No, I wasn't doing the online stuff at that time. There were some offshore sites that I was familiar with at the time, but I didn't have so much money. And the thing about a bookie was they'd give you credit lines so you didn't necessarily have to make an upfront deposit. It was like a rollover credit line. You get X amount of dollars per week, and then every Monday you either pay the difference or he pays you the difference. So I almost looked at it as imaginary money at that time too.

[Andrea Dukakis]

It sounds like it was also a way to get together with friends.

[Zach Everett]

Oh, totally.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Did you feel like you stood out from your friends in terms of your attraction type gambling?

[Zach Everett]

Absolutely. I was a big ego centered kid. We all love sports too. So I remember the very first bet that I won. I'm from Minnesota, so it was when the Minnesota Timberwolves were playing the warriors. And it was a very high money line. The Timberwolves were horrible and the warriors had their dynasty team. And I was able to pool together money from like 10 to 15 of my friends to all go in on this one bet, and they ended up winning. So from that moment on, I was like. I looked at myself as, like, the guy, and I thought everybody else did, too, and that got me hooked.

[Andrea Dukakis]

When do you remember thinking that this might be turning into a problem or a big problem?

[Zach Everett]

Well, I look back in the rear view now. I've been to. Just to set the record straight, I've been to three treatment centers for gambling. The first one I went to was in 2021. It started to become a problem for me when I was losing more money than I was getting from my current job. I wasn't really able to recognize it, but I did go to my first GA meeting back in 2021. I was told to go. It wasn't really like me wanting to go on my own. So, you know, I recognized it was a problem. It was bad. Then I came out of treatment. I was able to stop for a while, and then had my first relapse probably in 2022. Late 2022. Who told you to go to Wife, dad, family?

[Andrea Dukakis]

And I'm gonna assume that you went into some sort of debt because of this.

[Zach Everett]

Oh, yeah. The debt that I had accumulated at that time mostly was credit cards, loans from the banks, whatever thing I could get. There was a big thing back then. Payday loans. Pretty much tons of shops in Colorado would advance you money, and then they would pull it from your paycheck every Friday. So I got to a point where I had maxed out several credit cards, wasn't able to pay the loans back, and then the payday loans were already getting to my paycheck before I could even wake up. So I was waking up with almost negative money in my account while getting paid.

[Andrea Dukakis]

I mean, there must have been a huge feeling of desperation with that kind of financial distress.

[Zach Everett]

Totally. The desperation mode was insane. And then further than that, I started to ask friends and family for money and then promise them that I would pay them back on Friday, too. So I was getting hit with, like, seven different things that I had to pay every Friday with no money to pay it.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Jamie, let's turn to you for a minute. What else do you hear from clients about the impact gambling has on their lives?

[Jamie Glick]

Yeah, so we always think about financial first. We also see significant disruptions in relationships, including partners, spouses, family, even kids. And that's something I think we don't think about enough, is how this disorder affects the family. We think about the individual, and we oftentimes treat the individual, but the family is also affected and that whole system is disrupted.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Gambling has been in the news so much lately. Some prominent names in the sports world, Chauncey Billups, who hails from Colorado. He was suspended as head coach of the Portland Trailblazer. I also hear about online sports gambling in passing from the 20something boys I know. And your group, problem gambling coalition of Colorado, recently put out an ad targeting young athletes.

[Jamie Glick]

Being able to work with my team

[Zach Everett]

and having an outlet for stress, Playing

[Jamie Glick]

the sport you love with the people

[Rhonda DeSantis]

you love, setting that high standard and

[Andrea Dukakis]

giving everyone inspiration to achieve more every day.

[Jamie Glick]

Sports are designed to be fun, but problem gambling can take that fun. Gambling is on the rise, affecting people of all ages, and it's starting younger and younger when betting takes over.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Online sports betting became legal a few years ago in Colorado. Can you quantify how many of your clients have gotten hooked on gambling because there's now easier access to it online?

[Jamie Glick]

We have seen a significant increase in problematic behavior since 2020. We've seen an increase in calls to the 1-800- gambler hotline. We've seen an increase in calls to the problem gambling center. I've seen an increase in calls and it hasn't slowed down. And I think that we'll only see this continue to increase. I think this is an emerging public health issue and I'm glad we're talking about it today because I don't think that we talk about it enough.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Yeah. And is this an issue especially among young men, young athletes, too?

[Jamie Glick]

We do see that quite a bit. And the 1-800- gambler data shows us that between 60 and 80% of the calls are from young males. It varies by year. There's one year that was close to 84%. There's another year that it was around 65%. But according to that data, those are the people who are reaching out for help.

[Andrea Dukakis]

So Colorado has been easing restrictions on gambling, opening up to online sports betting. It's also lifted betting restrictions at mountain casinos. What's your opinion overall of the changes in the laws in Colorado?

[Jamie Glick]

You know, one of the things that concerns me is the amount of money that people can gamble in such a quick amount of time. People can essentially lose their entire savings in one night. And that is a few hours of gambling that can disrupt people's lives forever. And so I think that we do need to take a look at the industry. Gambling is the behavior, but the industry is the product. And I think we need to take a close look at these products and see if there's anything that we can do to really reduce harm.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And to this ad we just heard, how are you reaching the target audience?

[Jamie Glick]

Well, and you heard it from Zach. He was exposed to gambling at an early age, and we're seeing that more and more. And we're also seeing individuals reach out for help at an early age. So we feel like we have a responsibility to get the message out sooner. And so we created this ad to reach high school students and high school athletes. It was just recently played at the high school football championship game, which was really cool over at csu. The whole idea of that video is to keep sports fun. I'm a sports guy. Zach is a sports guy. I know in talking to Zach, there's a time in his life where he couldn't even watch sports. And that's devastating for someone who really grows up in that culture of sports. And so we want sports to continue to be fun. We want people to have a healthy relationship with sports, and gambling can really interfere with that.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And as a therapist, do you see a certain pattern with young men who become problem betters? How does it progress?

[Jamie Glick]

That's a really complicated question. I think one of the things that we see is that there's not financial transparency for a lot of these young men with partners, with spouses, even with family. And so they can spend money and no one knows. And so one of the advice that I give to family members is we need to increase that financial transparency. We don't need to have financial control necessarily, but people will spend money differently if they know that someone is watching.

[Andrea Dukakis]

It strikes me that with alcohol or drugs, it might be more apparent to a family member, but you can hide spending a lot more easily.

[Jamie Glick]

Absolutely. Yeah. And there's no drug test for a gambling addiction. You know, I can take a drug test and pee dice. It's just not a thing. And so you can hide that for a long time, because we do see situations where people gamble through all their money, and then they take a home equity line of credit, they gamble on credit cards, they gamble on student loans, and that's high risk behavior. When you start gambling with money that you don't have, that incredibly increases your risk.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Zach, what has your recovery path looked like, and how challenging has it been not to gamble?

[Zach Everett]

It's been a rocky road for me. You know, it comes basically down to you have to do it for yourself. I hear so often in recovery. You know, there's a great group out here on Monday nights, young persons, Gamblers Anonymous is what we call it. And the amount of people that come in and come back with a new date is much higher than people that come in and have one date. I think a lot of that is just having the willpower to stop. Like Jamie alluded to, you hide it from so many people. So the process of coming clean to everybody is so overwhelming that you almost, you don't want to do it and you want to try to hide everything from them as long as you can. But it really, you really can't get help until you're completely honest with everybody in your life and yourself. So that's what I had to do. I had to look myself in the mirror. And you know, so often too, you hear people ban themselves from the sports books, but. But there's so many sportsbooks nowadays that you have to do it on every sportsbook. Or if you find one that you haven't banned yourself, it just creates. I can do it on this app. I haven't done it yet. Or I know I only banned myself here for three months. And you have to close the loops. You have to make it hard.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And you're talking about how you can self exclude from gambling, Jamie, can you explain how that works in Colorado?

[Jamie Glick]

Yeah. So you can go to the division of gaming website and you can exclude yourself from on ground casinos and sports betting apps. It does make it more difficult for people to gamble. If someone really wants to do it, they'll still find a way. So it's a tool. But don't consider that your treatment, just self excluding yourself. You still have to engage in treatment. You have to do the work.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

Yep.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And I should note that the state has also excluded some people from gambling. And the state made the decision. They didn't. But Jamie, it strikes me that the loosening of restrictions on gambling in the state is helping the state because it's adding more money to the state coffers. But then it's effectively, as we've talked about, leading more people to become addicted. And then the state has to turn around and fund organizations like yours to treat those who become addicted. How do we make sense of all that?

[Jamie Glick]

That's a good question. If you figure that out, you can let me know. I see it similar to other industries. You look at tobacco, you look at the marijuana industry, and there's obviously a push to legalize certain things because it brings in tax revenue. But we also need to recognize that there's a public harm that's caused as well. And we just have to be smart about it and we have to talk more about it. I presented at a conference in October and I Proposed the development of a task force, state task force, to really take a look at this issue in full transparency. I was told that there was already a task force that we don't really need, that I dug into it a little bit more and realized and was told that that task force actually doesn't exist. And so I think we need to attack this in a coordinated way through a public health lens because it is causing a disruption to our state.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Zach, what do you think would make your recovery in the many months and years ahead easier? From a state perspective?

[Zach Everett]

It would never do it. But there's just a time, like what Jamie says, when you're losing money that you don't have. I've thought a lot about this and if there was a way to just like, you know, I compare it to like if you're going to get a credit check for a loan or whatever they do income verification. And I think a big thing that would help is having limits on how much you can gamble or how much of the paycheck you can lose. But I know that's not realistic. So then it just boils down to you wanting to stop because like Jamie said, everybody will find a way. But if they could find a way to cap out a weekly or monthly spend, a deduction of your paycheck that was allowed to go there and once you lose that, you can't lose anything else, that would help immensely.

[Jamie Glick]

And I think these are low hanging fruit. If we can eliminate the ability to gamble on credit, I think that would help out quite a bit. And then also I think that we need to look at the time of day that people are able to gamble. And talking to Zach on a different day, he made the statement that if someone is gambling at 3 o' clock in the morning, there's like a 95% chance that they have an addiction. Like Nobody gambles at 3 o' clock in the morning unless they have a problem.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And Zach, you were referring to the dates that people come to meetings with and you've been in treatment three times? I think. So what is your date?

[Zach Everett]

My date is April 24, 2024.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And how do you look ahead to recovery over the next several months and years?

[Zach Everett]

Yeah, it changes. The temptations are still there, but once you hit a certain threshold, I think to keep me active in recovery, doing stuff like this, staying connected with Jamie and then really helping people that are newer in the room keeps me clean too because, you know, you get to see it puts you back, you know, when you see people that are coming in with a fresh date and the emotions, you just you understand where they're at. And so continuing to be of service and helping others is what I can do now to keep myself accountable.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Zach, thanks so much for being here.

[Zach Everett]

Yeah, thank you for having us.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And Jamie, thank you.

[Jamie Glick]

Thank you.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Zach Everett of Denver is in recovery for a gambling addiction. Jamie Glick is a therapist who treats addiction. We spoke in December. If you or someone you love is struggling with gambling, you can reach out to 1-800- gambler or cogambler.org back. I'm Andrea Dukakis. You're with Colorado Matters on CPR News and krcc. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and krcc. I'm Andrea Dukakis. Few people are lucky enough to have a Denver park named after them. Only one, however, is unlucky enough to have Denver's worst park named after him. People who knew him say the park's namesake, Phil Milstein, love Denver. So what happened? Denverite's Paolo Chalceda found out for Colorado Wonders.

[Paolo Chalceda]

At Phil Millstein Park. The deafening rumble of cars from Interstate 25 overwhelms any sense of peace. The only amenity is a lonely picnic table, which is often surrounded by trash, spoiled food and overgrown foliage. The few bikers and runners on the South Platte River Trail hurry along the path and don't stop to take in the scene. But not Sally Jones, who has been biking past the park for decades.

[Jamie Glick]

First of all, it's so shabby, and I don't ever recall it being a nice park where you really want to come and recreate. Part of it, of course, is the the nearness to the highway. It's not as pleasant, but no grass, no nothing.

[Paolo Chalceda]

She wanted to know who was Phil Milstein and why was Denver's worst park named after him? Milstein was born in 1907 and became renowned for his contributions to Denver's downtown. After a brief stint on Denver city council in 1958, he became most associated with the redevelopment of downtown. As head of Downtown Denver Inc. He was such a strong advocate for the creation of the 16th Street Mall that he was often referred to as the Father of the Mall by reporters. Here's an excerpt from the Rocky mountain news in 1991 if the heart of

[Zach Everett]

downtown Denver is Civic center, then certainly its soul must be Philip Milstein, engineer, architect, preservationist, city planner, educator and volunteer core city caretaker.

[Paolo Chalceda]

He served on dozens of boards, committees and task force over the years. He was given the unique honor of being designated an honorary Denver Landmark by Denver city council in 1984 while he was still alive, the first living being to be given the designation. After he turned 80, he earned a PhD in Public Administration at the University of Colorado, Denver. Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave that was donated to History Colorado, reflecting on when he became the director of Downtown Denver, Inc.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

I sold my business in September and I was asked to come to work and take it over, which I was delighted to do because I don't ever want to retire.

[Paolo Chalceda]

When he died at the age of 85 in 1993, his service at Temple Emmanuel was attended by hundreds. They honored a lifetime of achievements. Milstein's reward for his service was the humble patch of land along the Platte. In 1988, Platte River Greenway Foundation, a nonprofit that has worked to open new parks and plazas along the river, surprised Milstein with a dedication of its newest park to him. In a newsletter documenting the ceremony, Milstein and his wife, Elizabeth Milstein, pose in front of several newly planted trees and patches of grass at the park.

[Rhonda DeSantis]

Millstein Grove promises to be one of

[Zach Everett]

the greenway's most beautiful parks, honoring a

[Jamie Glick]

very special and valued friend of the river.

[Paolo Chalceda]

Nearly 40 years later, Phil Millstein park hasn't lived up to the promise. It isn't accessible to anyone in particular. The nearest parking lot is a mile away. It's flanked on one side by i25 and on the other by industrial buildings. Denver City Council member Kevin Flynn knew Milstein during Flynn's journalism career at the now defunct Rocky Mountain News. He described him as a real gentleman whose love for the city was apparent.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

He loved this city, as many of us who serve in these capacities do.

[Paolo Chalceda]

He first visited Phil Milstein park about 15 years ago when he was biking from Littleton to dinner downtown. When he came across the park sign, he was shocked.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

I literally had to stop and I started choking up. I had tears in my eyes because I had no idea that there was a Phil Millstein Park. But I further had no idea that they honored him by placing this little patch of woe begone overgrown grass and weeds under some ramps on the 6th Avenue I25 interchange.

[Paolo Chalceda]

Currently, there are no city plans to improve the park, but Flynn floated the idea of renaming the three block long Skyline park in downtown after Milstein due to his involvement in helping redevelop the space. The project, which resulted in the displacement of 1,600 people, was a major part of the reinvention of downtown Denver in the 1960s.

[Dr. Sean O'Leary]

It just struck me that Skyline park would be the best place the most appropriate because it's at the intersection of some of his major initiatives.

[Paolo Chalceda]

Until then, Milstein's legacy will continue to sit along the South Platte river, far away from the towering downtown he helped establish. I'm Paolo Shalsadeh, Denver.

[Andrea Dukakis]

Thanks so much for joining us today and to the colorado matters team.

[John Daly]

Sandy butulga, tyler bender, carl bielek, anthony cotton, pete kramer, zan huckpechone, matt herz,

[Zach Everett]

tom hess, michael hughes, pedro lumbrano, shane

[Ben Marcus]

rumsey, haley sanchez, chandra thomas whitfield, ryan warner.

[Andrea Dukakis]

And I'm andrea dukakis. This is cpr news and krcc.