B (4:28)

Stop it.

A (4:31)

And the worst thing is you can't even complain. Sorry, Karen. Sorry. You're playing my silly game of answering questions and I've just. I'm so sorry.

B (4:40)

I thought you were better than that.

A (4:41)

I thought you were better. I mean, if you thought I was better than that, you didn't listen to series one. I would say. Who would you rather stand next to, Karen?

B (4:51)

Well, both, actually.

A (4:52)

You'd rather stand next to. Wow. Kanye and Andrew Mountbatten. Why is that?

B (4:57)

Because I work In a prison.

A (5:06)

And to be clear, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor denies any wrongdoing. The Men's Health strategy will also target risky behaviors like drinking, poor diet, smoking and gambling. Which is one way to ruin a perfectly good night out, eh, lads? I mean, seriously, you take all that out and it's just discussing your life with friends no one wants. Even though there are still some policy issues to iron out, I'm gonna do something no one's done for quite a while by saying free cheers for the UK government for finally acknowledging that half the population dying younger and doing worse at school might warrant specific attention. Maybe labour could now grapple with other head scratchers. Like, why does no one respect the guy with the silly voice who keeps changing his mind? Look, do not bring me in. Sorry, kid, but we should always acknowledge progress. And since my last series, there is undoubtedly undeniably more focus on male well being. Last Christmas we had the viral John Lewis Rave dad commercial. If anything suggested the male representation had become a bit negative, it was an advert going viral. Because the dad wasn't a dick and the son wasn't a sociopath. It was refreshing to see acknowledgement of the codes around male emotional intimacy. But I'll be honest, I feared the worst when I saw a pale 18 year old with jet black hair sitting on his own thought, hello. The adolescent sequel looks a bit depressing. Emergency hypothetical. Okay, if you're drinking Guinness zero, do you still have to buy a round? Okay, we've got any hands up for this? We've got a positive answer over here. What is your name?

B (6:35)

Vicky.

A (6:35)

Vicky. Nice to meet you, Vicky. So if you're drinking Guinness zero, do you still have to buy around?

B (6:39)

Absolutely, absolutely.

A (6:41)

Why is that?

B (6:41)

Because it's same price as a pint of beer.

A (6:43)

Yeah, but they're not having any fun, Vicky.

B (6:45)

Well, that's their own silly fault. That don't mean rest of us are.

A (6:48)

Do you drink non alcoholic beers?

B (6:50)

Yeah.

A (6:50)

Have you ever drunk one while driving

B (6:53)

a non alcoholic beer?

A (6:54)

Yeah. Cause you can.

B (6:55)

Well, that's what I've been drinking tonight.

A (6:57)

No, but while you're actually driving, like while you could do it. It's not illegal. I'll tell you from experience, it feels illegal. It's the same as when you give it to a baby.

B (7:09)

Yeah, in my line of work I can't really say that I've drank a non alcoholic beer whilst driving.

A (7:15)

Vicky, thanks very much for contributing. Give her a round of applause. But it hasn't all been positive for men in the cult. Another focal point for debate was Gary Neville asserting that all of society's divisions were being caused by angry middle aged white men. And that's our focus for tonight's episode and also what we were going to call this series. Now, personally, I know I'm out on a serious limb here in Leeds. I don't mind admitting it. I have some problems with Gary Neville and I know I'm an edge lord, but I had problems with his assertion. One, I looked at Gary Neville critiquing angry middle aged white men and thought in the words of the great historians from Newman and Medill, that's you, that is Gary Neville. Gary Neville is so argumentative and divisive. He's one of those rare blokes who can even piss off people who agree with him on almost everything. I mean, he's tactically astute, he speaks a lot of sense about football fans being priced out of the game. He hates var. But I'm still, I'm just not having him. I mean, he could rescue my dog from a canal and I'd shout, put my dog down, you irritating git. Whether it was on a football field looking terrified of Roy Keane or in a podcast studio looking terrified of Roy Keane or hiding in the commentary gantry because he's too scared to be in the same room as Roy Keane, the whole Gary Neville brand is an angry wind up merchant. Secondly, Gary, without those angry middle aged white men, you'd have a much smaller audience for your stupid podcast. Thirdly, we all know the rules for the liberal media that Neville works in, so the suspicion lingered that he wouldn't have dared stereotype any other communities that way. Would he claim that the problems, for example of going to the doctors are caused by nosy female receptionists with a God complex? Or that the worst thing about his stupid podcast is all the laughing? For God's sake, stop laughing and tell us whether United should have started with a back free. Where was I? Oh yeah, angry middle aged white men. So Gary Neville's always been outspoken about his political views on social media. He recorded this particular video shortly after an attack on the Jewish community in Manchester, which was very much not carried out by angry middle aged white men. However, that's not to say that what Neville said was completely without risk. He might not have taken any risk within the liberal bubble, but as everyone in the public eye knows, if you are going to get criticised on social media, the assailants are most likely to be male and a lot of them will be middle aged and yes, white. I've had a few Myself, though, the most cutting insult I ever had was after the first episode of Mass Report went out. There were plenty of people calling me a right wing bootlicker or Bill Hicks for people who shop at Stone Island. But. But one woman did more psychological harm than all of them when she tweeted. Well, he seemed to be enjoying himself. Sort of like finishing sex and your partner going, good for you. Neville's accusations came at the end of a hot summer where many people had hung St. George's crosses and union flags around their community. He concluded all of those flags came from a toxic place. Now, I'm patriotic and I don't want to presume the worst about men from any community, especially my own, but I can't lie. If I drive into a town with a lot of flags up and a kid makes me the enticing offer of a fiver to guard my car, I'll generally think of it as an investment. Also, they need to get some taller men to put those flags up or a ladder, because why are they always at half mast? I drove through Bromley the other day and I thought Nigel Farage had died. Listeners across the political spectrum will have their own ideas on what motivates a white English male to climb a lamppost to hang a flag. But I want to focus on the anger bit. I don't think angry middle aged white men are causing all the division in Britain, but they're certainly responsible for some of it. And if they are angry, surely we should be curious as to why. I'd argue some of it is just straightforward grumpiness. Grumpiness is an inherent part of the middle aged blokey brand. It often starts with growing irritation at smaller things. So let's go for a simple one now. Any just simple everyday things that make you, and this is only for the men now that make you annoyed. Grumpy. There seems like there's a gentleman at the back there. What's your name, sir? Colin. Colin. And what things make you grumpy and middle aged, Colin? Cretins on e Scooters. Cretins on e scooters. In terms of things that make you grumpy, I'll go for some low hanging fruit. For me, it's people playing music out of their phones on public transport. Yeah, I thought that might get you that one. Yeah, on the one day a month that you still commute. Furious, ain't you? However, feeling a bit grumpy doesn't excuse going online and saying hateful things to strangers. And data from the Alan Turing Institute does corroborate the idea that the majority of it comes from guys like me. However, I wonder if part of that, at least, is cultural. Part of white men's socialization comes from the publisher, where walking in and calling everyone a prick is considered a tad on the formal side. Among our mates, we love to banter, and if one of our friends delivers an opinion we think is poorly thought through, we'll often pick them up with nuanced challenges such as Shut up Dave, no one cares. Also, you are bald in a pub. These moments pass quickly enough amid the general ping pong of masculine word rallies, but from a Stranger disembodied at 3am, I dare say they lose some of their charm. But online insults are at the lighter end of things, and there are, sadly, people who systematically abuse others, often bringing in race and gender as an aggravating factor. But where does that come from? And why does it seem to be on the rise in the online sphere? An LSE report as far back as 2017 chronicled a number of reasons why working class white men felt they were losing their social status. This kind of anxiety gets short shrift in liberal circles who presume that merely being white and owning a penis is a lifelong golden ticket from Willy Wonka. But that's a very broad view of being male, which doesn't take into account the qualifying issue of class. Personally, throughout history I'd have preferred to be a middle class woman than a working class man. I mean, who would you rather be, Lady Chatterley or her lover? I mean, I'm sure Lamellos would have loved to spend the afternoon collecting wild flowers, but he was too busy yanking the guts out of a pheasant. I mean, yeah, it did sound euphemistic out loud. Class means that the very concept of privilege is more slippery than some people let on. I mean, imagine being a young white male who never had much power to begin with. Then you turn on a late night discussion to see someone called Hegemony talk about how you as a man should surrender your privilege. I mean, if you're a manual worker in Wigan, you might ask, exactly which privilege of mine would she like? Does she want to get up at 5am to stand in the cold? Does she fancy getting arthritis? And why do all Jeff's examples of underprivileged men live in Wigan? Have you even heard of Mansfield? Ladies, let's talk about male privilege. This is a question for ladies. Now think about a male privilege and think about which one you'd like men to give up, which you might like to have? What are male privileges that you might quite like? What's your name?

B (14:21)

Amanda.

A (14:22)

Amanda, what male privilege would you like

B (14:24)

men to give up their higher paid salaries?

A (14:31)

Well, you know, you say that I'm someone who's done support for Sarah Milliken and Katherine Ryan. So I take your point. I take your point to a point. Do you know a really funny thing, actually, Amanda, was I was doing a show, one of my first ever tours, and it sold so badly, right? We'd have to downgrade from the main room to the smaller room, but it's still selling so badly, we had to downgrade to the canteen. And at that time, I was doing support for Sarah and Catherine and some. We did a Q and A with the audience. The guy said to me, where are all the funny female comics, Jeff? I said, in my experience, usually in the bigger room. A fair point, Amanda, but in not

B (15:13)

all pay sectors, some pay sectors are equal, like the police, etc. However, some aren't.

A (15:25)

Okay, Amanda, could I ask you an honest question? Right, just say women were men and you were earning more than a man and a man wanted a bit. Can you just be honest? Would you go, oh, yeah, absolutely. Spread the love.

B (15:38)

No.

A (15:39)

Right. That is an issue. I appreciate your honesty. Give it up for Amanda, everybody. And we might. We might return to that point. We might return to that point. But I understand that feminism, to exist, has to paint in fairly broad brushstrokes, like comedy. It doesn't work if you constantly read out the exceptions. Can you imagine that? Have you ever noticed how women leave things on the bottom step of the stairs? But not all women, and certainly not single women. And let's not forget those old single women who live in bungalows. Also, we need to bear in mind the bigger picture globally, when it comes to privilege, it's fair to say that men are still doing okay. But how does the UK compare? Going into this episode, my hunch was that one reason men are angry is because their financial strength is being eroded. I researched how much the gender wealth gap has narrowed in the last 10 years. However, and you might like this, Amanda. Annoyingly, I found out that the wealth gap in particular got worse for women since COVID which obviously is annoying for women, but it was annoying for me because it didn't help. My point. The women's budget group suggests that women used up more of their savings during the pandemic and immediately after, which put a check on progress. But it's more complicated still. If we're looking at overall wealth, yes, men score higher, but A lot of that is held in pensions and skewed by the unique position of men over the age of 65. Ladies Men of that age have got some serious pensions. So, you know, forget trying to date a six footer in finance. What you really need is someone called Nigel. Mid 60s, still lives with his mum, but got a footsie index tracker in the early 90s. If any white males have the right to lament their fading prospects, it's Gen Z who haven't just faced different economic realities, but also workplace ones too. More than one in three young men feel that their identity has led to miss promotions. The irony being that the diversity and inclusivity drive of the last decade was signed off on largely by older white men who, realizing they were the proverbial dinosaur standing in front of the meteor, acted accordingly. But the important question is, this, was the thing which hit the dinosaurs a meteor or a meteorite? Any answers to that? Because I know there would have been some men I knew. I knew. What's your name, sir? Jonathan. Jonathan, was the thing which hit the dinosaurs a meteor or a meteorite? Neither. It was an asteroid boom. Absolutely. There's also the issue of liberal men who talk a good game on feminism, but only if it involves them sharing out the privilege of blokes with slightly more than them. Like those progressive fellas who encourage their partners to have a natural childbirth and breastfeed because it's best for baby. And also because they're not the ones having their hips displaced or their nipples chewed off. Now cheer if you're a man who still thinks that men have too much power. You're a man, okay? Now cheer if you think that you personally have too much power. Okay, slightly less so. That worked almost too well. Now, speaking of latte drinking soy boys, the producer of this show is so liberal he won't use a disabled toilet because get this, he's not actually disabled. I said to him, ed, come on, he'll be fine, just don't pull the red string. I was talking with him about an audio award he was up for and he mentioned that he'd been nominated eight times but had never won. He also mentioned with some horror that it had never been won by a woman or a person of colour. I suggested that maybe if he stopped entering, there'd be more chance of someone who wasn't a white man winning. And now I've mentioned it on air. How much of a dick is he gonna look if he enters this year? And they say I can't do. Woke up the idea of Sharing your privilege is a nice one, and I might be up for it, but I have another big reservation. Would women do the same if their starting point was the same as men's? Amanda There aren't many examples in the animal kingdom of the alphas sharing out their power. I've yet to hear David Attenborough say the lion is challenged by the young pretender to the throne and the lion says, you know what, I've had a really good run. It's time we get in some new talent. And that is in no way a comment on how long Gary Lineker remained on Match of the Day. I also wonder if there are specific things about being a middle aged man which lead to thinly suppressed rage which then seeks outlet in social media. Middle aged men in the UK, particularly those aged 40 to 59, often report low happiness and life satisfaction, experiencing the biggest dip in well being between the ages of 45 to 54. Now the cynical among you might say that would appear to coincide with the likely window for a wife's menopause. Just to be clear, that is not what I'm saying. It's simplistic, frankly patronizing. And could somebody open, slash, close the window and stop breathing so loudly? This period in a man's life is linked to high anxiety and the pressures of balance in both work and family responsibilities. By the time you're in your mid-40s, those little people who rely on you now want even more expensive stuff. Only now you've got to deliver because they're old enough to remember when you couldn't get a decent gig and spent two years eating baked beans in a onesie. For all the progress that women have made in the workplace, studies based on ONS figures indicate that men still earn more than women in over 70% of UK households. Is that a privilege or a crushing pressure which makes you have these weird nightmares where you're being pursued by an old pound note around the bank of England as depicted in Mary Poppins. Except this time you're M. Banks and instead of being fired by Dick Van Dyke, it feeds you to some giant pigeons. In other news, has anyone tried magic mushrooms before bed? Now this isn't to say that life becoming economically harder means that you can create a fake profile to abuse a female football pundit. I'm just asking why Gary Neville's angry middle aged white men feel that way rather than simply blaming them for all society's ills. If the economy is part of the problem, when do things get better? Well, Labour's deregulation could Lead to an economic boom the likes of which we'd never seen. And the fact that that got a laugh on its own does the word. They might realize that actually reducing the tax burden could kick start the. Okay, no one's buying this. So I guess we'll have to look at retirement now. It was easier for blokes two generations ago whether you had a pension or not. You reached 65, retired, walked the dog for a week, then died of a massive heart attack. Once upon a time, retirement was the point where men's happiness curve started to once again move in the right direction. But that curve is now bending out of reach. I did my pension sums in preparation for this episode. And having looked at all the figures genuinely, I'll be able to stop doing comedy in the year 2057, when I'll be 78. Probably be on a cruise ship by then. But by then, the world be carved into three superpowers, and our ocean liners won't be able to go beyond the English Channel, which will have been renamed the Gulf of Donald. The Valhalla. The Valhalla of retirement is becoming a more distant sunset for most men. But let's not forget what that means for people who actually do manual work. I'm not sure this government has factored in how a plumber starting work today is supposed to still do his job at 68. It's hard to imagine the older men in my family wriggling around an attic when most of them take four minutes to get out of a chair. For most men, the economic situation seems unlikely to to change dramatically. So what else could they do to be less angry? For men, being married is also pretty important. Not only are married men happier, they live longer. For women, I'm afraid there's no extra life for you. The main benefit is if you wake up in a bad mood, there's someone to blame. But interestingly, married women, and particularly mothers, are more likely to report that their life felt more worthwhile than men's. It's a bit deep. So another manly hypothetical. This is my favorite one. Which one of take that will go first? You must have views on this. Which one will take that? It's a bit. We'll include original lineup. Okay. What's your name?

C (23:45)

Liam.

A (23:45)

Liam. Okay, Liam, which one to take that is gonna go first?

C (23:48)

Jason Orange. Dramatic breakdancing accident, Spinning on his head. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen.

A (23:56)

Yeah, I mean, like, I can't fault your logic, man.

C (23:58)

Yeah, he's reached that age, he thinks he can still do it.

A (24:01)

He'll give it a go. Do you think he might have eased back on the breakdance in his late 40s? He still does it, though. Put a few drinks inside of his nightmare.

C (24:08)

That's it. We all have those moments. You know

A (24:13)

we don't, Liam. It's the truth of it, Jeff.

C (24:16)

We do

A (24:18)

give it up for Liam. So, yes, in the online space of the angry people you encounter, it is statistically likely to be straight, white, middle aged men. Not least because there are more of us. However, there are angry middle aged men in every culture. And I'd argue that in the wider global game of male toxicity, putting up a few flags might be at the lighter end of things. Middle aged men's societal stock might still be higher, but it ain't what it was. As the film producer Franklin Leonard once said, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Yes, Franklin, but in an era of modern progressive politics, aren't we supposed to take account of how I feel? My lived experience. And my lived experience is that I'll retire with less than my dad and my son has never known a male host of Strictly We Dream On. Come on, Rylan. Our ability to fulfill our most fundamental role of provider is harder than it's ever been. We're tired, and the vast majority of us won't be able to retire for a long time. Okay, I've clearly got the metaphorical violin out, so let's have some actual violin. We're still not that great at talking about our feelings. We know that man flu is real, just as sure as we know that saying we're ill will open us up to ridicule. Even though it's a double standard. Jokes about us going bald are objectively hilarious. We know that the fact we walk the dogs twice a day, even in extreme weather, will never be acknowledged as an act of service. We are aware that knowing the names of the next three storms isn't a transferable skill. But aren't you glad that that someone can tell you the name of the storm ripping your roof off? We know the moustache doesn't look brilliant, but it took the whole of Movember for it to even show, so at least let it stay till January so some other bloke with a tash can nod at us and say, well done, mate. We know that, yes, technically, football wasn't better in my day, but where's the harm in just pretending it was? Nostalgia ain't nostalgia if you have to actually prove it. So I'm not excusing people saying horrible things online or worse still, in person. If your issue really is with immigration or diversity drives, the only logical people to be angry with are those in power. And surely there must be a point when you're sitting alone downstairs and it occurs to you, am I really punching the walls because a black woman is playing a green witch? Or is it something else? Projecting anger doesn't make it go away. It doesn't make it go away. Maybe take that feeling and try and process it. Do some exercise, go for a walk. Or write it all down and see if it still feels like something worth putting in the public domain. Do something nice for the missus, grab the kids, tell them you love them. And if after all that, the raging anger is still there, do the only sensible thing. Write it in the comments section of Gary Neville's podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for listening to Geoff Norcott's work in Men's Club. Geoff Norcott's Working Men's Club was written and perform by me, Jeff Norcott. The producer was Ed Morrish and it was a peer production for BBC Radio 4. Hi, it's Geoff here. If you liked that episode of My Working Men's Club, you can hear more on BBC Sounds. Just search Stand up specials

D (27:40)

hello Wicked Wunderkinds and Degenerate do gooders. It's Russell Cain here, host of Evil Genius, the show that takes famous faces from history and and knocks them off their high horse by revealing three unfortunate facts about their life. We shine a UV torch on the hidden evidence, then present our findings to a jury of three comedians who will decide evil or genius? Join us as we rifle through the drawers of history, then make a mess on the carpet. Listen to Evil Genius first on BBC Sounds.