John Nicholson (2:47)

What films have you been watching?

Matt Ford (2:50)

Braveheart.

John Nicholson (2:52)

That's a documentary.

Salma Shah (2:55)

Yeah.

Matt Ford (2:55)

You're South African, but you were raised on the Isle of Man. So what tribe are you? Are you Zulu, Swazi or tax dodger?

Pierre Nivelli (3:03)

I resent the implication that you can't be a Zulu tax dodger.

Matt Ford (3:08)

Okay, let's use the lens of the tribe to analyse the party, political tribe and those who choose to defect. Reform has been hoovering up Tory defectors like Soella Braverman, who said, I feel like I've come home having clearly grown up in a home full of racist white blokes, clearly came as a bit of a surprise to her Indian parents. Defecting from a party has definitely become too easy. It's easier to leave the Tory party than it is to cancel a hello Fresh subscription. And to be fair, the Tories have a better track record of providing the public with vegetables. But aren't defectors reflecting the reality that as the two party system erodes, there are more choices tailored to your specific political needs? If you're too left wing for Labour, join the Greens. If you're too right wing for the Tories, join Reform. If you're too right wing for reform, join GB News. If you're too right wing for GB News, you're Rod Stewart. So far, it's been a bigger issue on the right, but there are rumours of Labour MPs ready to defect to the Greens to save their careers. Zach, it's Kier. Can I join? Or can you at least hypnotize me to make my polls look bigger? Salma Reform have taken some of the Tories brightest minds. They've also taken Nadeem Zahawi. They're clearly working their way down that list. Are you offended that your phone hasn't rung yet?

Salma Shah (4:45)

No, I'm pretty comfortable that my phone hasn't rung yet. It is interesting because how sort of powerful is your tribe and how associated are you with the tribe? And I think that people who are so quick to jump somewhere else, maybe their sort of allegiance was never to that in the first place, but actually, do you want your tribe to succeed, I think is the point, or do you want to succeed yourself?

Matt Ford (5:09)

And do you want to succeed yourself?

Salma Shah (5:11)

I am very happy to be in my stagnant failure,

John Nicholson (5:18)

John.

Matt Ford (5:19)

It's happened up in Scotland a bit. The SNP have had a few defectors leave and join the rival Independence Party

John Nicholson (5:24)

called Alaba, which has gone bankrupt and closed down.

Matt Ford (5:27)

Yes, but enough about the snp. What about their rival parties?

John Nicholson (5:33)

Well, look, it's not a new phenomenon, it's a Churchill, of course, flipped. Oswald Mosley went from being labor to being Fascist. Other great historical figures. Robert Kilroy Silk, obviously, he moved to the Permitan Party from the Labour Party. My friend Nadine Doris, much loved figure as we know across all political parties, she's flipped completely. But then. And Liz Cross, it's often forgotten she was a Lib Dem and then she became a Tory and now she's the leader of the Raving Trust Party.

Matt Ford (6:12)

So, yeah, what do you make of defectors? I mean, do you think it's ignoble or can you sort of understand it?

Pierre Nivelli (6:19)

I think it depends on the issue. I think if the public can be convinced that your issues were genuine and sincere enough, then they'll follow along. But if they think you're just a careerist, then you will be roundly punished. We do not like to see people enjoy themselves. If you're on a reality show in this country and you are a politician, you will be voted into eating as many anuses as possible. And that could just be traitors or Love Island. You never know, the public will find

Matt Ford (6:49)

a way to make you fancy.

Pierre Nivelli (6:52)

John

John Nicholson (6:54)

Port me back. No, absolutely. I can't imagine anything worse. Why do people do that? Apart from the money? The money obviously is the answer.

Matt Ford (7:04)

Salma, why is it a particular type of Tory that's leaving? Is it fair to say a sort of second string level?

Salma Shah (7:10)

Well, I mean when you think about how many Tories are left to go, I'm not sure there is a first or second string in that sense. It's all self serving at the end of the day. But if you're thinking about tribes and political identity, perhaps it's because political tribes just don't exist in the same way that they used to. And actually we don't feel any responsibility towards each other or an idea or a belief anymore.

Matt Ford (7:35)

So do you feel tribal when people defect to reform? Do you think, are you traitor or are you cool with it?

Salma Shah (7:39)

I'm definitely not cool with it. But yeah, it hurts because that's part of your identity and it's part of your tribe. But it doesn't mean that the tribe has to succeed. It can go and that might be the right thing.

Matt Ford (7:50)

Certainly throughout history, getting rid of tribes has been a sort of British. When Suella Braverman left the Tories, the Tories initially suggested that this was a sign of mental illness as opposed to a qualification. Do you think it was fair to frame it in that way?

Pierre Nivelli (8:12)

No, I think being out of power for just the amount of time the Tories have means that they're just, they've lost their touch when it comes to more subtle media manipulation. So they've just gone for, well, she's mental anyway, so who cares? I Think that's why they ended up having to completely retract it and give whoever it was who did that a tremendous telling off. Slash bonus. I don't know.

Matt Ford (8:32)

John, how do you, as an established member of the party, though, look upon defectors? Do you always see them as slightly second rate?

John Nicholson (8:39)

No, I'm a journalist by profession. I never thought that I would go into politics because I used to interview Scottish politicians and UK politicians. I thought so many of them were absolute numpties. The thought of joining the gang never really appealed to me. And then 2015 happened.

Matt Ford (8:56)

Did you assimilate?

John Nicholson (9:00)

Well, no, I never joined the Borg, but no. I think people are free to move from whatever party to whatever party they want. As long as their principles are decent, they shouldn't be overly criticized.

Salma Shah (9:15)

It used to be a lot rarer that you would leave your tribe to join something else. And I do think that if you're standing on a ticket that says, this is what I believe and this is what I'm about to, then just kind of like up and leave.

John Nicholson (9:28)

Oh, by elections you mean.

Salma Shah (9:29)

Well, that is a white.

John Nicholson (9:32)

Everybody changes parties. Always says, I haven't changed, it's my party. That's. Should they have by elections? Well, nobody ever wants to have a by election, do they? Because they always know that they're going to lose.

Salma Shah (9:44)

Well, exactly. So you can't just be allowed to switch without any kind of say.

Matt Ford (9:48)

Is there anyone that hasn't left yet that you would like to see leave?

Salma Shah (9:55)

I have a list. I'll share that at some point.

Matt Ford (9:59)

John, if you were forced to defect to another party, which one would you go to?

John Nicholson (10:03)

I think I'd probably go with the Greens. I quite like some of the drugs.

Matt Ford (10:08)

Legalising drugs.

John Nicholson (10:08)

Yeah. So I've no problem with that. I think criminalizing drugs leads to crime. And honestly, if you were to do a lie detector test on members of the Parliament about how many have taken drugs, I think the lie detector would blow up.

Matt Ford (10:27)

Well, I got one here. So let's start with you, Salma. If you had to join another party, which one would it be?

Salma Shah (10:35)

Ooh. Can it be like a fantasy party? Not that kind. Filth, obviously.

Matt Ford (10:46)

One that had previously existed, maybe. So you could have, like, the old Liberals or the Whigs.

Salma Shah (10:49)

Yes, the old Liberals.

Matt Ford (10:50)

Damn it. Why did I help you, Pierre? I don't know if you're a member of a party, but if you're forced to defect and where your current allegiances lie, where would you go?

Pierre Nivelli (10:59)

I don't know, really. I think at the next election, My current plan is to very carefully fold up my ballot and eat it

Matt Ford (11:06)

and

Pierre Nivelli (11:06)

then walk into the sea with rocks in my fuckers.

Matt Ford (11:10)

So that's one heck of a spoiled ballot.

Pierre Nivelli (11:13)

I really want them to remember me down at the count.

Matt Ford (11:17)

Well, of course, we couldn't have this discussion without involving our audience, so we asked, when was the last time you or someone you know surprised someone by swapping sides? Rachel said at Christmas. For Christmas dinner, we switched from turkey to pheasant. It was a game changer. That's an actual joke. That's a proper joke. Rachel, I don't know if you're available for writing work, but do tweet me. Moji said, the thing that I swapped sides was, oh, my word. My husband, we went swinging and I preferred the lad. Mochi, get in touch for different reasons.

Pierre Nivelli (12:02)

Oh.

Matt Ford (12:03)

John says the last time he stopped something, I was at Nando's and I swapped a side of fries for a side of rice.

Salma Shah (12:11)

That's legit. Yeah, the rice is better with the chicken.

Matt Ford (12:14)

Yeah, spicy rice. Pauline says the last time she swapped sides, my husband agreed to swap his fries for my steamed broccoli. Pauline, you're a genius. Do you swap fries for broccoli?

John Nicholson (12:28)

No, John, I'm from Glasgow's

Matt Ford (12:34)

broccoli. Is this green stuff that you get?

John Nicholson (12:36)

I thought that was malt.

Matt Ford (12:41)

Okay, let's use the lens of the tribe to analyze nationalist politics. In the uk, we have mainstream nationalist parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymrus. Distinct political parties, but bound by one common principle. They really hate the English. But is nationalism always bad? It's now mainstream in Scotland. The Saltire is being seen in places it hasn't been flown for years, like the World Cup. And for any Welsh listeners, the World cup is an international football tournament. Nationalism can be used to exclude others. Racists used to shout that there was no black in the Union Jack, but we all know that there is. It's that bit in the corner that says Made in China. And even the entirely innocent Nicola Sturgeon said she'd have preferred said she'd have preferred the SNP to have a different name because of how problematic the word nationalist is. I actually think the real problem is the word Scottish. Take that out and they'd win a landslide in England. John, you hate everything about me purely because of where I'm from.

John Nicholson (13:54)

No, it's nothing to do with where you're from.

Matt Ford (14:02)

What is it to do with?

John Nicholson (14:04)

Let's talk later.

Matt Ford (14:07)

How do you feel about the English? Would you say that your nationalism is formed in any way as a sort of opposition to Englishness.

John Nicholson (14:15)

I think that's a very Anglocentric concept. You don't have to be proud of being Scottish or Welsh or whatever you are, because you hate someone else. I mean, Norwegians aren't Norwegians because they hate abba. They're just, you know, they're just. They're just Norwegians. It's a very London centric idea. All these peculiar jock chaps up there. They're absolutely obsessed with us. No, we're not. We don't really think about, with all due respect, you all that often. And when we do, it's with affection.

Matt Ford (14:53)

Pierre, you grew up in South Africa, which was tribally delineated between rich and poor and black and white. Having emigrated to the uk, does it feel like you never left?

Pierre Nivelli (15:06)

You're much more subtle about it. Here we had a very crude system and we did have a national party, but they're not as popular as they used to be. Yeah, it is strange. I mean, South Africa is like most of the rest of the world where it's about money and power, whereas here it's about regional identity, accent, class, income, prestige of job. You can have a very prestigious job that makes you powerful but doesn't make you any money. Tell that to an American and they won't even understand what you're saying. How could I have power and no money? It doesn't make any sense. You say, well, you're the chief librarian of English Libra.

Matt Ford (15:41)

Well, Salma Shabana Mahmood said in an interview recently where she said she considered herself English, British and Brummy. And we talk about British Asians and Scottish Asians. We never really talk about English Asians. Unless I'm wrong.

Salma Shah (15:55)

I think we've always talked about ourselves in terms of British Asian. I don't think we've ever sort of delineated on nation state lines. But I think that is an interesting question, is that how do you identify yourself versus how other people see you? But it's not really about how she defines herself. It's about her defending herself against how other people define her. And that's the sort of crux of it, is that you're constantly. If you're a minority in this country, you're constantly on the back foot because you've got to always feel that you are proving something to somebody all the time. I'm just sick and tired of being defined by somebody else about how I think or how I feel about something. And I'm not going to apologize anymore. And I don't think Shaban and Mahmood should either.

John Nicholson (16:40)

You know, it's interesting, Matt, I think that is the difference between the south and north of the border. Scottish Pakistanis call themselves Scottish. They don't call themselves British Pakistanis. And why is that?

Salma Shah (16:53)

Well, it must, but I don't either. I'm British and that's where it ends.

John Nicholson (16:57)

Fine.

Salma Shah (16:58)

I have other cultural influences.

John Nicholson (17:01)

I'm just making the point that when people are asked to give their nationality a double barrel in Scotland, Scottish Pakistanis call themselves Scottish Pakistanis, not British Pakistanis. And I wonder if that's because nationalism south of the border has developed a right wing character.

Pierre Nivelli (17:20)

There is a level of divisiveness. I see myself as British mainly because the Isle of Man and like a lot of places that are a bit more aware of its own ethnic identity, there's a list of surnames that are of that ethnicity. So my surname is Italian. I can hardly claim to have a Manx lineage, but I'm a naturalized Manxman by virtue of having got my citizenship there and growing up there and becoming British through that channel. I will say, in defence of England, you don't get that as much because there's much more of a sort of mad mixture of Normans and Huguenots and Windrush and everything else. So England might have a more right wing bent to its nationalism, but it also has more diversity.

John Nicholson (17:56)

It's interesting. Scotland is the only country in Europe that's never had an anti Semitic law on its statute book. Though, to be fair, that might be because we're so busy discriminating against Catholics we didn't have time to discriminate against the Jews.

Salma Shah (18:14)

I think there is a place for us to actually talk about what is it that you want to belong to as opposed to how you're dividing people

Matt Ford (18:22)

up and what do we all belong to?

Salma Shah (18:25)

Well, the nearest example I can think of is Gerry Hallowell wearing a Union Jack dress.

Matt Ford (18:31)

John, even you must have the Spice Girls.

John Nicholson (18:34)

I mean, that's the end of the argument, isn't it?

Matt Ford (18:38)

Could you make a case that had the Spice Girls not have existed, Scotland would have voted for independence in 2014? Pierre, what do you make of sort of nationalism in general and this idea that you can have civic nationalism?

Pierre Nivelli (18:52)

I think you can start off with civic nationalism, but I worry that it will deteriorate over time like uranium into lead and sort of gradually turn back into what it was before as an idea from the 19th, 20th centuries.

Matt Ford (19:04)

Okay. We asked our audience what would be a good alternative national anthem that better summarizes the character of the country you were born in. Trev says it's the end of the world as we know it. And then he's put in brackets. Cliche, my friend made me add that. Cheers, Trev. Naz says, Stuck in the Middle with you by Steelers Wheel clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Oh, an anonymous person says, always look on the bright side of life. That's just a lovely answer, wasn't it? So, onto the final topic. Let's use the lens of the tribe to analyze foreign disputes that somehow find their way onto the streets and into the politics of Britain. At a recent state banquet for the Nigerian President, King Charles waded into the debate about who makes the best jollof rice. He did. He said Nigerian jollof is only the best. Perhaps Ghanaian or Senegalese. Diplomatically, I cannot remember. Funny how much stuff members of the Royal family can't remember. It's not the first time that food has been the basis of an international dispute. In 2008, there were the so called hummus wars between Lebanon and Israel about who invented hummus. It's still not been fully resolved, although Lebanon has since conceded that it did help invent Hamas. I know it has Balaah, but it doesn't rhyme with hummus, so cut me a bit of slack. But in an increasingly diverse Britain, are we importing foreign tribal disputes into our own politics? There are now five independent Gaza MPs in parliament elected primarily on the basis of which side they take on a tribal war being fought in the Middle East. But we should also recognise that it also works the other way. For instance, there are seven members of the Israeli Knesset who were elected on a promise of lowering council tax. In Stoke Salma, in Gorton and Denton, the Greens were. They were accused of sectarian politics. Now, on the one hand, you could say that their strategy encouraged tribalism, but on the other, it really pissed off Nigel Farage. So would it arguably be worth it?

Salma Shah (21:25)

No. But I do think that there is an increasing problem of having, as you say, tribal politics from elsewhere coming in and sort of. We're almost imposing other people's issues onto UK streets. Now. There's a really important distinction here. There is the British interest and the fact that the Middle east conflict has direct, meaningful impact on us. There is also the consideration of the fact that people do want to make their positions known in terms of their moral positions around things. And that is perfectly legitimate in terms of protest. But if you have independent MPs that are single issue. And if you have people who are on the doorstep of saying one thing to a particular group of people, that is a problem in our politics.

Matt Ford (22:12)

Pierre, are there any pro Palestinian marches on the Isle of Man?

Pierre Nivelli (22:16)

There could have been. I haven't lived there for a while. I don't know how many people you need to qualify a march for on the island. Three, four? Very possibly. I do think it's interesting that one of the issues is that if you want an example of local UK elections that have already been like this for a long time, there's Northern Ireland that we don't like to talk about. I mean, that's been pretty clearly delineated for quite a while on exactly these lines. And that's a good example of what elections might increasingly look like. The irony is that I think people vote more like this as they slowly realize that MPs have no power, not more. They don't expect them to do anything, but they go, well, if I'm going to vote for someone who can't do anything, I'm going to vote for someone who can't do anything, who at least says things I agree with.

Matt Ford (23:00)

John, you campaigned for Palestinians to have their own independent homeland. Do you welcome the pro Gaza protests we're seeing on our streets, or do you think sectarian politics should stay in Glasgow?

John Nicholson (23:13)

Well, it's funny you should mention Glasgow in this context, because these days there are two football teams in Glasgow which are quite well known. Rangers, Partick Thistle and Celtic. Right, so the Rangers football fans have taken recently to flying the Israeli flag and the Celtic fans have taken to flying the Palestinian flag. They just. I suppose they just felt there wasn't enough sectarian acronym in Glasgow, so it was important to try and top it up with some outside conflicts. I think it's great that people engage on these issues. You should feel strongly about that. You should express your views about that. You should march about that. I mean, I was sitting in Parliament as a Member of Parliament when we tabled a motion demanding an immediate ceasefire and Labour MPs were ordered by Keir Starmer to abstain.

Salma Shah (24:12)

It is right that the reason you put that motion down is because you wanted to see a split in the Labour Party. Is that where it was going?

John Nicholson (24:19)

No, they had no idea they were going to be asked to abstain.

Pierre Nivelli (24:23)

Because then you turn all of your representatives whose actual job is to scrutinize legislation for domestic consumption into an international feelings Broadcasting House. And even if the feelings are nice, that's not the job. You've got to Try and fix things and pass laws and not constantly U turn and get things done.

Matt Ford (24:40)

It's not a student union in a way. Isn't some of this a blowback from the Empire? Isn't this sort of some chickens coming home to roost?

Salma Shah (24:48)

Oh, God, where are we going to go with that?

Matt Ford (24:52)

We're all getting cancelled, but let's do it together.

Salma Shah (24:56)

Right, so, yes, there is that question about colonization and what people like me who were sort of one step removed from it. What we then feel about this and how we're reacting to unfairness and history. Basically about the way certain borders were drawn up. Constantly talking about what happened before without thinking about what is the path to the future, I think offers nothing to any of us. But where do we go forward? So I can get on and live my life and go to Nando's and get my side of spicy rice?

Matt Ford (25:30)

That's it. And Nando's deal to broke a world peace between all factions. Surely all factions can find something in Nando's infamous hot sauce.

John Nicholson (25:43)

We're there. My pill is edging towards a deal.

Salma Shah (25:47)

I won't eat with anybody who goes for the mild option. That herb thing? No, thank you.

Pierre Nivelli (25:55)

It all comes back to South African peacemaking in the end. The 90s all over again.

Matt Ford (26:03)

So we asked our audience, what is the most trivial dispute you've ever found yourself in? Aidan said, a dispute about whether a croissant is bread or pastry. Pastry, innit? Am I right? Yeah.

Salma Shah (26:23)

That wasn't scientific. Am I right? And two people clapped.

Matt Ford (26:28)

Oh, Ender, how long should we pressure cook the chicken brackets? It was a heated debate. Lovely work. Amelia says with the vet about whether they had checked my cat's BMI before saying he was too fat.

Pierre Nivelli (26:48)

Cat's BMI. Grow up, everyone.

Salma Shah (26:54)

Wait, do they not have BMIs?

Pierre Nivelli (26:56)

They shouldn't. It should be no one's problem at a cat. Cat's bmi.

Matt Ford (27:03)

Yeah. You're a Tory. You love fat cats. Well, that brings us to the end of today's show. A huge thanks to our audience and to my focus group. Sam Michelle, John Nicholson and Pierre Nivelli. What better way to end than with the words of author Frank Herbert, who said, a man's flesh is his own. The water belongs to the tribe. That was before privatization, of course. The water now belongs to Tribal Utilities plc, which is why it's brown and tastes like a festival toilet. Thanks for listening. See you next week. The Map Ford focus group was written and presented by Mapford, with additional material by Carl Minns, Ruth Hoskoe and Richard Garvin. It was produced by Richard Garvin and is an avalon production for BBC Radio 4.

Salma Shah (27:54)

If you enjoyed this episode of Comedy of the Week, you can hear more

Matt Ford (27:58)

on BBC Sounds Check. Just search the Matt Ford focus group.

Armando Iannucci (28:02)

Political language can seem archaic.

Matt Ford (28:04)

It's like the light from one of

Salma Shah (28:06)

those stars that actually died.

Armando Iannucci (28:07)

Sometimes bamboozly.

Salma Shah (28:09)

It's a theme park with a five foot log flume.

Matt Ford (28:11)

From one thought to another and very often beyond words. I don't know how to describe the language they use.

Armando Iannucci (28:17)

I'm Armando Yannucci. I'm all reset and turbocharged to stress test, to destruction used and abused buzzwords and phrases from the world of politics. I come with a dazzling array of guest presenters and I'll be exploring the verbal tricks of the political trade, the intentions behind them and the effect they have on all of us. The new series of Strong Message. Here with me, Amanda Iannucci from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Science.