Malcolm Gladwell Returns

Summary

Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend – Episode: Malcolm Gladwell Returns

Release Date: December 2, 2024

Host: Conan O’Brien with Team Coco & Earwolf

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1. Welcoming Malcolm Gladwell

In this special episode of Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend, Conan welcomes returning guest Malcolm Gladwell, the acclaimed New York Times bestselling author known for works like Outliers, The Tipping Point, and Blink. The episode promises a blend of humor, insightful discussions, and meaningful conversations as Conan seeks to forge a deeper friendship with Gladwell.

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2. Reflecting on the Holidays and Life Changes

[02:28] Conan O’Brien opens the conversation by delving into the emotional impact of the holiday season, especially as an "empty nester." He shares a poignant memory of decorating for Halloween and the bittersweet realization that such family traditions have changed as his children have grown.

[02:43] Sona Movsesian adds her perspective, expressing the stress of holiday preparations and the challenges of decorating without kids at home. This exchange sets a reflective tone for the episode, highlighting the universal feelings of change and nostalgia during the holidays.

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3. Discussing Malcolm Gladwell’s New Book: Revenge of the Tipping Point

Conan introduces Gladwell's latest work, Revenge of the Tipping Point, signaling a deep dive into significant societal issues. Gladwell expresses his mixed feelings about being friends with Conan, hinting at the humor and candidness that will characterize their interaction.

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4. The Opioid Crisis and Pharmaceutical Manipulation

A substantial portion of their discussion centers on the opioid epidemic, drawing from Gladwell's research on how OxyContin catalyzed the crisis. Gladwell explains the "epidemic strategy" employed by Purdue Pharma, which focused on a mere 1% of American doctors to disproportionately prescribe OxyContin, thereby igniting widespread addiction.

[28:24] Malcolm Gladwell:
"They ended up with a situation... where 1% of American doctors were prescribing 50% of the OxyContin."

This segment underscores the deliberate manipulation tactics used by pharmaceutical companies, emphasizing the devastating impact of targeted misinformation and unethical marketing practices.

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5. The Role of Media in Shaping Public Awareness

Gladwell and Conan explore how media events can dramatically shift public consciousness. They reference the Holocaust miniseries starring Meryl Streep and James Woods, which significantly heightened awareness and dialogue about the Holocaust in the United States and Germany.

[34:07] Malcolm Gladwell:
"The term 'Holocaust' was almost never used in textbooks or media until that miniseries aired, transforming public understanding overnight."

This discussion highlights the powerful role media plays in educating and influencing societal perspectives on critical historical events.

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6. Diversity and Community Resilience

The conversation transitions to the importance of diversity in fostering resilient communities. Gladwell references research on "Poplar Grove," a town characterized by a homogeneous culture that tragically faced a high suicide rate among high school students due to its lack of diversity and inclusive support systems.

[64:22] Conan O’Brien:
"Diversity is what makes up community resilient. It means that any problem one group has isn't necessarily going to spread to other groups because they're different."

This insight emphasizes the necessity of diverse environments in preventing systemic issues and promoting overall community well-being.

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7. Harvard Admissions and Athletic Preferences

Gladwell critiques Harvard University's admissions policies, specifically the preference for recruiting athletes in high-cost sports like rowing, fencing, and sailing. He argues that this strategy favors wealthy families who can afford extensive training, thereby undermining the meritocratic ideals that universities purportedly uphold.

[54:14] Malcolm Gladwell:
"Setting aside admission slots for athlete children is a way of ensuring that enough rich kids attend your school."

Conan humorously responds to this criticism, highlighting the absurdity and exclusivity of such admissions practices.

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8. The Evolution of Late Night Conversations and Interviewing

Gladwell observes a decline in the quality of conversations and interviewing skills in modern late-night television. Drawing parallels to his podcast experience, he suggests that the art of meaningful dialogue is diminishing in favor of faster-paced, less substantial interactions.

[45:35] Conan O’Brien:
"You grew up on various versions of that. When that goes away as a model, who's left?"

This critique serves as a commentary on the current state of media and the importance of preserving genuine, in-depth conversations.

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9. Reflections on Parenthood

Both Conan and Gladwell share their perspectives on parenting, discussing the challenges and misunderstandings that arise when parents project their desires onto their children. They touch upon the concept of "benign neglect" and the value of allowing children to experience boredom as a catalyst for creativity and resilience.

[63:38] Malcolm Gladwell:
"The confusion between what we want and what our children need seems to be the principal conflict of parenting."

Conan echoes these sentiments, advocating for balanced parenting approaches that prioritize children's autonomy and well-being.

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10. Conclusion and Mutual Appreciation

As the episode draws to a close, Conan and Gladwell engage in light-hearted banter about their shared birth year, hair, and personal anecdotes. Despite the serious topics discussed, the conversation maintains a warm and humorous undertone, reflecting the essence of Conan's quest to build genuine friendships through his podcast.

[71:04] Malcolm Gladwell:
"Thank you, Conan."

[71:18] Conan O’Brien:
"You nailed it the first time. Thank you so much, Sir."

They express mutual respect and appreciation, reinforcing the show's mission to foster meaningful connections beyond the typical celebrity interviews.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• Malcolm Gladwell on the Opioid Strategy:
  "[28:24]...1% of American doctors were prescribing 50% of the OxyContin."

• Gladwell on Media Influence:
  "[34:07]...the miniseries aired, transforming public understanding overnight."

• Conan on Diversity and Resilience:
  "[64:22]...Diversity is what makes up community resilient."

• Gladwell on Harvard Admissions:
  "[54:14]...a way of ensuring that enough rich kids attend your school."

• Conan on the Decline of Late Night:
  "[45:35]...When that goes away as a model, who's left?"

• Gladwell on Parenting Conflicts:
  "[63:38]...the principal conflict of parenting."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend offers a rich tapestry of discussions ranging from societal crises to personal reflections on parenting and media. Through candid dialogue and insightful commentary, Conan and Malcolm Gladwell explore the complexities of modern life, the influence of media, and the importance of diversity and resilience in communities. Their interplay of humor and depth provides listeners with both entertainment and thoughtful perspectives, staying true to the show's objective of building genuine friendships through meaningful conversations.

Transcript

[Conan O'Brien]

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[Sona Movsesian]

I did. I heard you.

[Conan O'Brien]

And just like that, a State Farm agent will be there to help you choose the coverage you need. You just say that and they show up. They come jumping out of a shrub.

[Sona Movsesian]

Oh, cool.

[Conan O'Brien]

No matter where you are in life, when you need the coverage options, your State Farm agent is there to help. On the phone or in person. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Man, holidays coming up gets pretty intense, doesn't it?

[Sona Movsesian]

It does.

[Conan O'Brien]

Very intense. During the holiday season, it feels like you're packing a lot into every second. Everything gets compressed, pressure.

[Sona Movsesian]

It's stressful.

[Conan O'Brien]

So much to do. That's why ADT spends all their seconds helping protect all of yours. While you're out. The ADT plus app gives you complete control over who has access to your home. With the Google Nest doorbell from adt, you can know for sure if that's Santa or Aunt Mildred at the front door. See, I'd be suspicious cause I don't have an Aunt Mildred. It's aunt Mildred. Thief. ADT has the largest number of companies owned 247 monitoring centers in the industry. When every second Counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com today or call 1-800-ADT ASAP. Google and Google Nest Doorbell are trademarks of Google LLC.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hi, my name is Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, I didn't think about this. Well, I have mixed feelings about being Conan Ryan's friend.

[Conan O'Brien]

Now wait a minute. Why would you say that? I'm a huge admirer of your work.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Could I do a long explanation of why?

[Conan O'Brien]

Is it going to be another book?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no, no, no.

[Conan O'Brien]

Sure.

[Matt Gourley]

Fall is here Here.

[Conan O'Brien]

Ring the bell.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Brand new shoes Walking blues climb the fence Books and pens.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can tell that we are gonna be friends Yes, I can tell that we are gonna be friends Hi and Welcome to Conan O'Brien needs a friend. I've got Matt Gourley with me right here scribbling away something. I don't know what he's doing. Last will and testament and I've got sonom of session here. Yes, you know we're getting into the holiday seasons.

[Sona Movsesian]

Yeah, we are.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I have a question for you because this is something that hit me recently. I don't often reveal my interior life, my emotions. But I'm going to get vulnerable here for a moment, which is, as you guys know, I'm an empty nester Now Both my kids are in school.

[Matt Gourley]

You're also an empty soul guy, too, aren't you?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, empty soul. Yeah. Yeah. But that's been, you know, whole life. But I didn't expect to feel this way. But I remember feeling this way at Halloween. I walked by some houses, and they were all decked out with, you know, skeletons and witches and things like that. And one of them had. There's this spider that plops down if it senses a presence. Have you seen that? Remember when it just goes. And it makes a little noise and its eyes light up a little bit? And I just had this really strong memory of my kids watching me put all that stuff out and being really excited and saying, where's the spider? And me going and getting. You know, there's the. You can get the fake graves, and you can get the skeleton hand that comes out of the ground. My excitement came from their excitement of watching me do it. And, you know, they're not. They're in college now, and so we're not doing that to our house. And then I walked around and I had that pang of. It made me sad. Do you know what I mean? I had a moment of, oh, that's. That's done.

[Sona Movsesian]

I'm. I like not decorating. I'm not a decorator. And now I have to, because I have boys, my boys. And I'm just like, come on.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, really?

[Sona Movsesian]

I gotta go get a web. Gotta get a web and like a spider and stuff. No, I don't want to do that. Also, where are you gonna put all of it? There's just so much storage.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're a terrible person.

[Sona Movsesian]

It's not even that. It's just. Do you like. You like it? We can't like it.

[Matt Gourley]

We're big decorators for holidays. But I will say that when we had free time before Glenn, it was so much easier. Now it's harder to decorate because we don't have time and energy. We still do it, but. And we go big.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We go pretty big.

[Sona Movsesian]

Are you that house on the block?

[Matt Gourley]

I wouldn't say we're that house. We're of those houses.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What?

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay, so.

[Sona Movsesian]

Those houses.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sona Movsesian]

Why would we drive around? A lot of houses in Altadena do it, and some of them, like, they'll let people into their houses, and they do.

[Conan O'Brien]

They go all out. They go all out.

[Sona Movsesian]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, there are. I mean, this is something that blew my mind because I grew up in suburb of Boston, and I think a fairly normal street, and people would put out Christmas decorations or Halloween decorations, and then Much later in my life, but nothing that crazy. Literally just a string of lights here and there. My brother Neil was the one that really went for it. He found in a junkyard a giant light up Santa. And without my parents permission, he lit it up and hung it on the front of our house. My parents were very like tasteful people and they were freaked out and it was like, you know, and I think it also, it ran on some, you know, now or even then outlawed gas. It was from like the 20s, I think real flames came out of the Santa. It was just. And it shot asbestos and viruses around. I think it polio. It had polio in its. It carried candy canes made of polio. Anyway, the point being that I then got out to LA after not seeing much. And are these streets here in la, set designers live there, affluent people that make movie sets and they'll spend months and they'll bring in union crews and you'll see this insanity. Yeah. And you can't believe it. And I think, oh, we just plugged in some candles.

[Sona Movsesian]

I like people who decorate their house for holidays they shouldn't decorate for.

[Conan O'Brien]

What do you mean?

[Sona Movsesian]

Like why, why isn't there like a big Valentine's Day thing outside your house or a big St. Patrick's Day thing or like, you know.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, some people go, I don't know, some people go big on St Patrick's Day. As an Irish person, I don't like St Patrick's Day. I think it's, I'm just, you know, I'm self loathing Irish. So when a bunch of Irish people run around hitting each over the head with green beer and saying, saints begoris, I'm not having it. And they're always like 11 15th Irish. So you know, when someone from the Czech Republic is saying, you know, I'm not having it.

[Sona Movsesian]

Did you ever wear a shirt that said kiss me, I'm Irish. Ever in your life?

[Conan O'Brien]

No.

[Sona Movsesian]

Ever in your life?

[Conan O'Brien]

No.

[Matt Gourley]

Did you ever wear a shirt that just said please kiss me?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, well into my late 30s. Okay, please hold me. I think it said, even sadder, please affirm my masculinity. I had a shirt that I wore for 35 years that was, oh, to feel a woman's touch, but O apostrophe. Oh yeah. O apostrophe. O to feel a woman, woman's touch. By the way, that's going to be a new seller for our merch. Oh, to feel a woman's touch, Conan.

[Matt Gourley]

O to feel a woman's touch.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, I think a Lot of young people wear that shirt.

[Matt Gourley]

I love the holidays. Man, I can't get enough.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, first of all, you and your wife both worked at Disney back in the day.

[Matt Gourley]

What's that got to do with it?

[Conan O'Brien]

What I'm saying is.

[Sona Movsesian]

Storks.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, not at all. That's a big corporation, which I'm sure advertises with us in some way. My point is this.

[Matt Gourley]

You go to Disney all the time.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. No. My thing is that you guys come from the world of yay. Let's, you know, let's put on some costumes.

[Matt Gourley]

Time out. Maybe she does.

[Conan O'Brien]

I was. She was a princess.

[Matt Gourley]

She was. But I.

[Conan O'Brien]

She was a Disney princess.

[Matt Gourley]

I was very cynical about working there. I did not like her.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, well, you worked at Disney, but you were in the resistance.

[Matt Gourley]

I was the cool guy.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're like the French waiter when the Nazis occupied, who brought the soup out a little slowly. Here you go, you German generals. Here's your soup. It's Vichy Suaz, but I warmed it a little bit. Take that, you Nazis. Wow. You showed them. I worked for Disney, but I was in the resistance.

[Sona Movsesian]

How many wigs do you have? Be honest. In your house.

[Matt Gourley]

I don't have any wigs.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're lying.

[Sona Movsesian]

You must have, like, oh, we're Goofy. We got wigs.

[Matt Gourley]

No, that's the thing.

[Conan O'Brien]

He does look like a guy who has a bunch of wigs. Really?

[Matt Gourley]

You're the person with all the wigs.

[Conan O'Brien]

Hey, when I wear a wig, it's to pass a bad check, okay? When I wear a wig, it's not to have fun. It's to pass the check that doesn't have my name on it. No, that's right. Hi, Mrs. O'Hurley. Now give me the fecking money. I'm a Croatian man. Anyway, I feel like you have a wig bin.

[Matt Gourley]

I don't.

[Sona Movsesian]

You have a wig thing.

[Conan O'Brien]

I don't.

[Matt Gourley]

We got rid of our wigs.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's right, Sona. In fairness to him, one week ago, they threw out the wig bin. So you had no right accusing him. Anyway, I miss it. I miss it. I miss my kids. I miss. I miss. I don't know. I miss that part of life. So you should enjoy it now. It's fun to go out and buy the spiderwebs. Or the other way to do it is just don't clean during the year. Get the real spider webs. You know what I'm saying? In real time.

[Sona Movsesian]

No one's doing anything. None of us are reacting. Did you want us to giggle?

[Conan O'Brien]

No.

[Sona Movsesian]

Did you want to giggle?

[Conan O'Brien]

No, I just thought it'd be.

[Sona Movsesian]

Did you want something?

[Conan O'Brien]

I really thought we had something there. I think we got a segment.

[Matt Gourley]

Except it's an intro.

[Conan O'Brien]

Intro. Oh, fuck. That's right. Yeah. So what were we saying? We had something really funny.

[Matt Gourley]

Oh, we're not going to cut out that part where you didn't get your giggle.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's.

[Conan O'Brien]

You didn't get your giggle any. Who's. I love the holidays and I say that D, A Z, E. There's a funny little something for you. My guest today is a New York Times bestselling author of books such as Outliers, the Tipping Point, and Blink. He also hosts the popular podcast Revisionist History, and his latest book, Revenge of the Tipping Point, is out now. I'm thrilled he's here with us today. Malcolm Gladwell, welcome. Why do you have mixed feelings about being my friend?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I hope you take this in the right spirit.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I walk in and you come and say hello to me and I see the famous hair. You, for your entire career, have been the king of the flamboyant hair club. You've been all. And I'm someone who has flamboyant hair.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

All of us have looked towards you.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

As a kind of leader in the flamboyant hair.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I look. And it's not that flamboyant today.

[Conan O'Brien]

No.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I felt a little let down. I was like, here I was to get a kind of dose, a kind of feeling that I'm on the right track, that when I. When I let the whole fro thing go crazy, there's someone else out there doing it. From the Irish perspective. And.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. I have an Irish fro. You do. That's what it's called.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But those famous. There's just. It's just kind of.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'll tell you exactly what's going on.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What's going on?

[Conan O'Brien]

My. And again, this could be a book for you. Malcolm Gladwell. This could be a book. But unintended consequences. You write about all these kinds of things. You know, what's really happening behind a phenomenon that we all take for granted. What's really happening. My hair is very susceptible to the weather, and there needs to be some moisture in the air. And I'm really not kidding. My hair is a barometer. So when I'm in places like Seattle, Boston, where I'm from, when there's some humidity in the air, my hair is absolutely fantastic.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's on fire. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And it's big and springy and it shoots out. So Moisture in the air is the Viagra for my pompadour. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but I'm trying to use a medical terminology.

[Matt Gourley]

Are you insinuating that you have thousands upon thousands of tiny little erections growing out of your head?

[Conan O'Brien]

You have to say little, but sure. But what I'm saying is today it's been very dry. And I'm noticing lately I get up in the morning and my hands are like scales and my hair is just collapsed onto my head. And I could have done artificial things to pump up my hair this morning, but I didn't want to do that. What artificial.

[Sona Movsesian]

Artificial things?

[Conan O'Brien]

What do you mean? What does that mean?

[Sona Movsesian]

What do you mean?

[Conan O'Brien]

Various chemicals and balms. But I didn't want to do that, Malcolm. I didn't want to be fake with you. So I come in and I could see your face.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My disappointment sense.

[Conan O'Brien]

You said, shit, I'm unhappy out loud.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I didn't. You know, I should say I'm. My feelings of disappointment are. They're moderate. I'm not.

[Conan O'Brien]

Wow. For me, that's pretty good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. No, it's just a little.

[Conan O'Brien]

Take that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's just. I came all pumped up.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Because like I said, you know, in every generation has a kind of flamboyant hair leader. Einstein in his day.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Angela Davis in the 60s. Right. We can go down the list. There's always someone. Those of us who are trying to do something with our hair look towards.

[Conan O'Brien]

I took a Stand. My hair has never been the popular hairstyle. It basically is the Bob's Big Boy. It is, you know, it's a combination of Elvis. It's the, you know, star of Hawaii five zero. Steve McGarrett. Yes, it will.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Steve McGarrett.

[Conan O'Brien]

There was a lot of influences to my hair. It's got some rockabilly to it. And I let you down and I apologize. And you're going to really admire. This is a professional level segue. You did not let me down because you've written another fantastic book, Revenge of the Tipping Point, where you revisit.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You're really anxious to change the subject from your hair, aren't you?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, because it's coming from a place of disappointment. And we're gonna talk about the Revenge of the Tipping Point in just a second. But I wanted to start with something else that I just happen to know about your own life, which is that you're now in the world of being a parent.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I am.

[Conan O'Brien]

And what fascinates me is that I'm obviously very Impressed and intrigued by the way your brain works and to be honest, somewhat intimidated. And then I come in today thinking that's one area where I've got 21 year head start on Malcolm Gladwell.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You do?

[Conan O'Brien]

What's that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You do?

[Conan O'Brien]

I do. And I feel like, yes. And not only you guys as well. We can kick this guy around with our knowledge of parenthood.

[Sona Movsesian]

Yeah, we're better.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, you took it too far.

[Sona Movsesian]

Oh, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Conan O'Brien]

But no, no. You're such an original thinker. But before we even get into the book, part of me wanted to say, hey, what's your take on parenthood? Because I bet it's fairly original and unique.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no, no. In fact, the exact opposite. And the thing I realized really early was that every observation I had about my children, every other parent in history of parenting had already had about their children. So my entire life I had been burdened by the obligation of originality. The burden has now been lifted. And as a parent, I am free. I am free to say the most banal thing about my kids.

[Conan O'Brien]

Great.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And everyone's like, oh, yeah. That no one has ever, ever said when I've. Because I've turned into the person I once despised. All I do is show people pictures.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Nonstop. Nonstop, by the way. In fact.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, let me see.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There they are.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, my God. Beautiful. Look.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Adorable.

[Sona Movsesian]

Oh, my God.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Adorable. Adorable. Very, very cute. We could go on. I could sidetrack this whole thing. No, no one has ever said when I make my observations. No, they always say, yeah, that.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, it's funny. I bet. Like, oh, here's Malcolm Gladwell. Let's ask him about being a parent. You know, we're going to get this. And then you say it makes you really tired. And people are like, what? This from Malcolm Gladwell? It can be challenging at times. It's rewarding. But also, none of those things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

None of those things. But I do. Like, it's the secret club, you know, before you have kids, you're not a member of the club and then you join the club and it's like, did you get a whole new lease on life?

[Conan O'Brien]

I had one thing that I. Maybe I've said it to you guys, to Matt and Sona, but I try very hard not to tell. First time expecting parents any kind of. All right, let me tell you. Sit, have a seat and let me spin some wisdom for you. I always try and tell them. It's like trying to explain to someone who's never been immersed in Water, what that feels like. It is such a profound change in your life that you just need to go through it. And then you're gonna look at me and nod. But to try and sit and explain. The only way for someone to understand what it's like to be in a body of water is to jump in a body of water. And until you've done that, the greatest writers in the world cannot explain to you what that feels like. And so you just have to go through it. The only advice I ever give is lots of video. Because when 10, 15, 20 years from now, you are going to look at all of it over and over and over again.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Video that I'm taking of them. I thought you meant video that I'm showing them.

[Matt Gourley]

Lots of screen time. Just set them in front of an iPad.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I thought you were just saying.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, no, you got it. Exactly. Specifically VHS video. I think it should be all movies from the 80s and late 70s.

[Sona Movsesian]

Lots of murder.

[Conan O'Brien]

Lots of murder. And just. They should be. No, be funny. That's my advice.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know what?

[Conan O'Brien]

Lots of screen time and high fructose corn syrup.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

One season of Revisionist history. We did a. We wrote the ending to the Little Mermaid over the course of four episodes, which is possibly three episodes too many. But it was very fun. Cause, you know. And it's all wrong. The end, right? Yes. And I had run across this all wrong because. Well, I'll explain to you. Thank you, Conan. Do you have daughters, by the way?

[Conan O'Brien]

I have a daughter and a son.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, so only two. That's unusual for someone of. What.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, and guess what? Guess what? They're both alcoholics and they dress like leprechauns. Gladwell. Wow. Guess what? You know what? A little bias there. Guess what if it had been.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Can you resist that?

[Conan O'Brien]

No. No, you can't resist.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

O'Brien is the last name you can't resist.

[Conan O'Brien]

Also, the Irish are the one people where you can say whatever you want and no one gets upset, not even particularly the Irish on that point. First of all, on Irish bias, which is always confirmed, I would have had more kids. And after our second child, my wife said, you're never to touch me again. Which I've held onto that. And the second one, this is a true story I did at a benefit the other night, I performed at a benefit for a really good cause. And just before I went up, some guy who was at the benefit in the crowd came up to me. I want to say he was like late 30s, had a little bit of a fratty vibe to him. Maybe 40. And he's like, hey, man. So when you go up to perform, do you usually, you know, have a couple of, you know, a couple of hits? Because he was holding a drink. And I went, no, I don't do that. And he went, no, come on. But you probably have at least a drink. And I went, no. And he went, but you're Irish. And he looked really like, I don't understand, you know, how an Irish person cannot be drinking. It was just fascinating to me that in this age of sensitivity, it's like, no. And I was like, no. Okay.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Are you guys. You're the last. We're the last weekend, sort of open season.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, you can.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, you can, and go for it. But.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no, but. So I didn't mean to offend you.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, you. I find it again, you can't offend the Irish. Yes. Every thought I ever had as a parent has already been said, probably by the ancient Greeks.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. No, no, it's great. No, I asked only because you must have seen the Little Mermaid if you have a daughter. And I had read this law review article by this professor who was watching A Little Mermaid. She was a contract law professor with her kids, and she got outraged at the way the Little Mermaid story portrays contract law because. Because, of course, the plot twist in the Little Mermaid is that the Little Mermaid enters into a contract with Ursula that she will give up her soul unless she gets the hand. There's no way that contract will be upheld by a court of law. And this law professor got very angry that Disney was deliberately perpetrating this kind of injustice on contract law. And so she wrote she has no.

[Matt Gourley]

Issue with there being no such thing as mermaids.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, no.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Also, she points out the mermaid is underage. You cannot. An underage person can. So there was so many red flags. So many red flags. So she writes this very angry law review. And I remember I was. I was reading.

[Conan O'Brien]

Remind me never to watch a movie with this person. I know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no. And I was like. I had. I had one thought and only one thought only. And that was, this woman is the greatest genius. And so I just. I basically ran back to the office and called her up, and turns out she was hilarious and she inspired me. So then I. Turns out there's multiple problems with Little Mermaid. I mean, I don't mean to get into it. And so I do know the screenwriter, actress Brit Marling, friend of mine, I said, brit, I have this problem with Little Mermaid. She said, so do I. And so she rewrote I got her on the case, and then we performed it. I got Jodie Foster and Glenn Close to play key roles.

[Matt Gourley]

Oh, my God.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And the. And I. What I really wanted, the final piece, was I wanted Disney to sue us because I've heard they're famously litigious. And I thought, this is the greatest marketing opportunity in the history of my podcast. My podcast is not as big as yours. I need to have these kinds of. Yes. And so I did everything in my power to bring this to the attention of the attorneys at Disney. Nothing to this day. Basically, I accuse them of everything under the sun. I ripped off their content. I did everything you're supposed to do to get a lawsuit.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yep.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No lawsuit.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's disappointing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It is.

[Conan O'Brien]

I think there's nothing sadder than not being sued by Disney.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I know. It was like. It was like when they. When. Remember they were banning books again in, like, Florida.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And the first thing I did was like, am I on the list? Am I on the list?

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, please. Oh, please, please, please.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I wasn't on the list.

[Conan O'Brien]

Sony. You like to travel? You like to go away and have a good time?

[Sona Movsesian]

I do. I like taking the boys and Tack and I go somewhere.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sona Movsesian]

For the holidays this year, we're thinking about, you know, just taking a. To Lake Arrowhead for a week or something. Just somewhere nearby.

[Conan O'Brien]

Lake Arrowhead. That'd be beautiful.

[Sona Movsesian]

It would.

[Conan O'Brien]

And then it occurred to me recently, what happens? Cause you got a lovely home. You guys have a beautiful home. You've done a very nice restoration on it. What happens to your home when you guys are away?

[Sona Movsesian]

It just sits there. It just sits there.

[Conan O'Brien]

It shouldn't. I know. Think about it. If you host. Okay. If you host with Airbnb while you're away, it's basically like you're getting paid to travel.

[Sona Movsesian]

Exactly.

[Conan O'Brien]

I mean, it's just.

[Sona Movsesian]

I know.

[Conan O'Brien]

So don't leave money on the table the next time you're out of town. When you're away, your home could be an Airbnb. Yeah. It's a cool idea. Think about it.

[Sona Movsesian]

I will.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I've got good ideas. Your home, AKA your future Airbnb, might be worth more than you think. I think yours would be worth a lot because you guys did a beautiful job on it.

[Sona Movsesian]

Thank you. I hope so.

[Conan O'Brien]

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[Sona Movsesian]

That is actually pretty sweet.

[Conan O'Brien]

I love that. I mean, that's insane. I'm always there with my credit card, you know, I can't figure it out. I lose the credit card, the phone is stolen, someone punches me, you start crying. I cry a lot. When you land, T Mobile's got you covered with 15% off all Hilton brands and an upgrade to Hilton Honors Silver. Plus you're covered with 5 gigabytes. 5 gigabytes. That's more than 4 of high speed data in over 215 countries and destinations with the Go 5G or next plans. These are just a few of the perks that feel like big wins when you travel with T Mobile. And it's nice to stay connected to your family. I travel a lot. I do these travel shows and if I'm filming another country, I know I can get to my family right away. They usually don't want to speak to me, but they screen your calls a lot, don't they? I suspect them of screening, yes. Find out how you can experience travel better@t mobile.com travel today. Qualifying Plan required. Wi fi where available on select US Airlines Registration and Hilton Honors membership required for Hilton Honors Silver. Terms and conditions apply. As a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be. So noisy. So much. So much out there.

[Sona Movsesian]

So much.

[Conan O'Brien]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know, the story that got me writing this book is I wanted to say something about the opioid crisis, which I think is the kind of the most under discussed thing going on in our society right now. And I was very, I wanted to understand how, how it was that OxyContin makes this enormous. I mean, it's not the first painkiller, it's not the first opioid painkiller, it's not the first addictive painkiller, yet it's the one that sets in motion this epidemic that now, you know, kills over 100,000Americans every year, by the way, which is such an astonishing number. I don't, I can't even, I don't understand how we even wrap our minds around how many Americans die every year of overdoses. But understanding that there was this very, very deliberate, Machiavellian, brilliant but evil strategy they followed, which was an epidemic strategy, which was all about understanding that they did not need to convince the majority of doctors to prescribe opioids to start an epidemic. They only needed, in fact, they end up. The statistic I was at the core of this was we ended up with a situation at the end of OxyContin's life where 1% of American doctors were prescribing 50% the OxyContin.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And that's the whole game. They understood we don't even have to worry about. We can basically ignore 99% of doctors. Our concern is with the 1%. A couple thousand doctors in the whole country will be sufficient to get this thing rolling because those guys at the fringes will prescribe so many prescriptions of OxyContin. That's all we need. And so they take a sales apparatus which typically if you're a drug company, you build a sales apparatus to, to reach the broad middle of doctors. And they just deployed it towards these kind of like whack job doctors who were way out of, you know, the norm in, you know, in small town Tennessee, and visited them hundreds of times, wined and dined them and convinced them to write thousands of prescriptions for OxyContin. That is the distillation of an epidemic strategy.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. It's not the law of the few, it's the law of the very, very few.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Very few.

[Conan O'Brien]

An analogous situation, you talk about how they did a Covid study involving hundreds of people and, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people got sick. And it was from two people.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

In the study, it was. Two of them spread it. And it's analogous. It's in the same way that with OxyContin they had. You describe the tragedy of it is that the vast majority of doctors are responsible and there are laws and mechanisms in place to keep something like this happening. You describe how doctors. There was a rule put in place that if you write someone a prescription for a drug this powerful, an opioid, it's on a triplicate form, so there's three copies. And because of that, it keeps everyone in line. There's three copies of it. There's a real record, a lot of dissemination of what I'm doing. Okay. So everyone is going to be good. But then these drug companies found out there are some places where that law doesn't apply. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And that's where they feasted on.

[Conan O'Brien]

And that's where they feasted. And then you talk about. What's really disturbing is reading the testimony later on where people are being asked, members of the family.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The Sackler family.

[Conan O'Brien]

The Sackler family, they're being asked, do you feel any kind of responsibility? And it's all passive language. Well, the kind of famous Nixon quote is, mistakes were made about Watergate. Well, mistakes were made.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

None of them, you know, none of them went to jail.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If you think about it like, you know, Sam Bankman fried, who, you know, I guess committed a fraud and went, you know. Although none of the very few of the people who he apparently defrauded actually lost money. He's in jail for how many years? Eight years. So you can. You can mislead rich people and you're in jail for eight years, but you can kill a couple hundred thousand Americans and you're fine.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I find that very curious. I don't really understand how. I mean, I realized it was a legal settlement and blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. But still, it's kind of shocking that.

[Conan O'Brien]

It is shocking.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And they. And then you're talking about when they testified before Congress, they talked as if this whole epidemic had been started by someone else. It wasn't even. It was. Or this company, Purdue Pharma, that their family had started and created and run for two generations was a kind of third party off by the side that they had no connection to. I mean, I just find the whole. Everything about the opioid crisis is astonishing to me.

[Conan O'Brien]

I remember being shocked. Very recently, one of my children came home from school. Someone came to their school and told them, showed them how to use Narcan. That's how prevalent this is. That the way we were shown a fire exit and had a fire alarm practice. Now kids are being shown how to, you know, young adults are being shown how to use Narcan because. And thank God they are, because that's saving a lot of lives. But that's where we are now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it's.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's just standard training for kids.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. One more. Welcome to the world of parenting. The one more thing I have to worry about.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, it's, I mean, something I never thought about, obviously, when I was growing up and didn't have to worry about. And there's so many things that kids have to worry about today. It does make me profoundly sad that even fairly innocuous things that a kid may experiment with can have been tampered with.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And kill them. So, you know, that's the world we're in. And I'm gonna end the podcast right there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, no, let's try Conan. You're just bringing us down. This is. You're. So what happened to your famous joie de vivre?

[Conan O'Brien]

Guess what happened. Guess what happened. You came in and you. On my hair.

[Matt Gourley]

Is your mood contingent on your hair?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes, yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

And now I'm spiraling. My hair is flat against my big Irish skull, which is loaded with alcohol.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Jamesons.

[Conan O'Brien]

Jamesons. And I'm primed for a fight. But you know, you know what? There's so much. It's really funny. Like there's on an upbeat note because there's so many fun puzzles in this book and intriguing things. There's one thing that you brought up in the book, and I'm jumping around here because I don't know a better way to discuss it. But you talk about how we all know World War II ends 1945. There's the revelation, Nuremberg trials, about concentration camps. Sorry.

[Matt Gourley]

Upbeat note.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You'll see.

[Conan O'Brien]

We're getting there. We're getting there. All right. We're getting there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This does not end well. No, this is. If I have a sense.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, no, no. This was. Not that it's upbeat, but it was fascinating to me that the Holocaust was very little discussed in the late 40s, the 1950s, the 60s, through the end of the 70s, through the end of the seventies. And then there's. Was it a movie of. It's a television movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Four part miniseries. So if you go back and you look at. I got. When I got interested in this, I got all the textbooks you would read in freshman year. European history in the 60s. And the 70s, if you read them and you're reading, they got like four chapters on the Second World War. You read all four chapters and you're looking for. When they discuss the Holocaust and you look and you look and you look and there's nothing there. There's like two sentences. There's like. And then the Germans created camps where they put displaced persons, Gypsies, communists and Jews, period. And then they go on to something else. You're like, wait, how is this, These are serious textbooks. And then you look, you can keep going. And there's actually been a whole scholarship about how they weren't denying the Holocaust. They just weren't mentioning it.

[Conan O'Brien]

It wasn't discussed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It just wasn't. There is no, there's only one Holocaust museum in this country prior to the, to the 1980s, and that's actually here in LA. And that was one that was created almost by accident. A bunch of, I tell that story in the book. A bunch of survivors are at Hollywood High learning English together and they want a place to put their stuff, the stuff they can't bear to keep in their house, right? Their uniform from Auschwitz or whatever. And then what happens? So there's this. And if you look at like how often is the word Holocaust used in books, magazine articles, newspapers up until 1979, and the answer is it's almost never used. Then there's a four part miniseries on NBC starring Meryl Streep and James woods called Holocaust, which half the country has a 50 share, half the country tunes in to watch it and boom, after that, that's when we get all the Holocaust museums.

[Conan O'Brien]

That blew my mind that this was not discussed and that this one TV series that I frankly don't remember watching changed everything completely changed the dialogue. I remember the same thing happening with, I mean, this is crazy, but there was a, in the 80s, there was a the day after. Yes, yes, that's it, the day after, about nuclear war. And there's footage of Ron and Nancy Reagan, President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan watching it and they're gobsmacked. This is the guy who has the nuclear football is saying, what? This would be bad. And so the net cut to him meeting with Gorbachev, you know, at Reykjavik and saying, well, we have to make sure this never, you know, and be based on a TV movie that got. Maybe what if that hadn't been greenlit? I mean, it's these things turn on.

[Matt Gourley]

These incredible judgment of Nuremberg, not land with people.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, you, I mean, there are these little mentions here. There's dire Van Frank, obviously, which is on Broadway and also a movie. But even that, remember that's really about Anne Frank's story in Holland. It's not really about what's going on in the camps in Central Europe.

[Conan O'Brien]

Also just a bit Judgment. Nuremberg is not all. It does not focus on the Holocaust. Do you know what I mean? In a way that you would expect it today. It's very much about the prosecution of evil and the. These bad Nazis. But it's discussed and there's a famous scene, I think with Judy Garland, but it's.

[Matt Gourley]

And they show footage, remember, they show it in the courtroom. They show like.

[Conan O'Brien]

But it's not highlighted that way.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. The average American, when they finally run that miniseries, most Americans had. If they had. They were dimly aware that there had been. The term that was used back then was that there had been atrocities, right?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But the idea that there was this kind of systematic destruction of European Jewry at the scale that it was and with. And what that meant on a kind of. It was not. Was sort of absent from discussion. It's kind of. And then they take the miniseries, then gets resold to German television. And the same thing happens only times 10 because the Germans had just not mentioned the Holocaust at all. And all of these Germans discover for the first time what their country did. And there's a whole literature about what happened when the Germans finally watched this NBC, I mean, the country was in an uproar. I mean, you cannot imagine. There's almost no analogous media event to what happened when the Germans watched this. It was on late night cable and the whole country tunes in and it just kind of. There was, you know, all the major newspapers ran these huge sections discussing what had happened. And people were like, wait. And that's when. Now you have in Germany a real heightened awareness of their responsibility.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's very, very. It's moving. And it's very impressive too that when you go to Berlin, there is. They've not only acknowledged it, but there's a sense that they're going to great lengths to make sure that everyone is aware. And I mean, all the plaques outside of homes that say these people were taken from this home and they were taken to this camp and they were murdered. And it's just. There are a lot of countries in the world. You know, I don't know if there's any such thing as an innocent country, but many countries have things to own up to and don't. And it's impressive how much Germany has.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But the whole thing goes to this question of that there can be. I mean, what interested me was that there can be a moment when public opinion or acknowledgement or knowledge of an event can kind of shift overnight. I mean, that was what attracted me to that story.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, there's a. But there is a lighter version of this which really got me thinking. You talk about Will and Grace.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

There were these very perceived rules about. If you're going to talk about, let's say you're going to talk about homosexuality or gay couples on a television, here are the rules. And there was this way in which that has to be done responsibly. And Will and Grace didn't follow any of those rules.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, so this is this work of. I've ran across this really wonderful TV scholar named Bonnie Dow who does this analysis. First, she starts with the way that Hollywood talked about women's issues. So remember that wave of kind of feminist shows Starting in the 70s, Mary Tyler Moore show, Rhoda. Yeah, Cagney. Cagney Lacey. Is that. Yes, I think that's part of that. And she points out that you would think watching those, that those were shows that were kind of pro women's liberation or whatever, feminist, but they follow a very implicit, an implicit set of rules about how a woman is allowed to proceed. She says that in every case the women was only allowed to succeed in a. If she was succeeding in a man's world. And she. All of those heroes were childless and not in a relationship. So the real message of that, of those shows were, yes, you can, you can get ahead if you're a woman, but only if you give up any chance of having a family.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right. There's no domesticity.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There's no domesticity. So it's like, so it's not really. Are those shows pro feminist or when you watch them, do you think, oh, wow, that's the price I have to pay if I want to participate? Then she says there's a similar set of rules about the way Hollywood dealt with gay topics. And the rule was homosexuality was always a problem to be solved. In other words, the plot surrounding the gay person had to turn on the fact that everyone else in that person's life was trying to fix all of the crisis that had been caused by this person's sexuality. The gay character was only ever seen in isolation. So they didn't have a community they didn't have. They weren't in a relationship they didn't have. They were just off by themselves. It was like the typical one would be, you find out your 16 year old son is gay. Right. And so the whole family is left to deal with this intense problem. Another rule was no sex. So you can't ever see what this thing is about. You're, you're. It's all always an abstraction. And the. Oh, and then the last one was that the, the. The gay character cannot be the center of the narrative. They have to be peripheral to the narrative. Narrative is about it. So you know, you, you, you add these up and you get, you could, you could watch a made for TV movie that might be on its face, might be quite sensitive and sympathetic to the gay character, but all of these rules are telling the audience that this guy's off in the margins, he's on the fringes, he's incapable of participating fully in modern life. Right. So. And there's a wonderful book, this film scholar does a book where he looks at every single film from 19, like 1940 to 1975 that had. Or 1980 that had a gay character. And he just shows like every single one of them meets a bad end. They either are killed, commit suicide, end up in prison, or like every single one. There's like 48 characters and like every one of them. And what happens with Willem Grace is that Willem Grace comes along and breaks every one of those rules. So Will's gayness is not a problem to be solved, right? Never. It's never perceived to be a problem. He's not seen in Nice.

[Conan O'Brien]

He's also. It's Will and Grace. So he's number one on the call sheet. He's not peripheral?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, he's not peripheral. He has Jack and he has boyfriends. He's part of a community, you know, go on and on and on. He's the center of the show. He's not a. He's not. And the effect of that. So if you're someone who's watched TV your whole life and all you've seen is gay characters in this very specific context where there's something deeply problematic about them. And all of a sudden you're exposed to a show where there's a gay character and there's nothing. I mean, he has problems, but they're not problems related to his sexuality. He's just a neurotic. Just another neurotic.

[Conan O'Brien]

He's like the rest of us. He's got problems we all have.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Living in an apartment in New York, which is what all sitcoms were about in those days. Right, Right. So there's something with that show that kind of. That is, that is a revolutionary show. It completely rewrites the rules. I think, you know, if it's always a fun experiment to say, what are the five most important television shows of the last 50 years? I think Willem Grace is, like. I would put it, I don't know, second, third. I think it's. I don't think it's.

[Conan O'Brien]

I think.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think it's ahead of Archie Bunker. I think it's. You know, they always say 60 Minutes is one, and like, I usually get three.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm usually three. Your show, Late Night with Conan O'Brien is usually three.

[Matt Gourley]

Huh?

[Conan O'Brien]

Are we. Are we in the real world or in my reality? Yeah, because I like my reality, and in my reality, I think Mermaid is perfect.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I should not have laughed so heartily at your suggestion. No.

[Conan O'Brien]

I don't know what you find so funny. I'm always like three or four. But I know what you're saying.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think you're tough.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

By the way, can I make a peripheral point about late night and the decline of what late night is meant?

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So for several generations, this is not related to my book, all of America, not all of a huge chunk of America, every night watches some version of either Jimmy, Johnny Carson or someone else.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Interview somebody, engage in a conversation with somebody. Yeah. And it's highly entertaining. But also what they're seeing is a masterful interviewer interviews someone. Right. So you're getting. It's kind of like interviewing class conducted on a national basis for everyone in America. That goes away. And I have become convinced that no one knows how to interview anyone anymore or even have really. What Johnny Carson is having is conversations, Right?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Really fun conversations. I think the art of conversation has declined at the same time as the decline of late night. I don't think people. You need a model. No one is a model anymore. They're not.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's like you're being incredibly rude right now. I'm interviewing you.

[Matt Gourley]

And you said, they're all dumb.

[Conan O'Brien]

And you said no one knows how to interview anymore. And I would like you to have a big fuck yourself sandwich. Can you. Do we have a fuck yourself sandwich?

[Matt Gourley]

That's not a good conversation.

[Conan O'Brien]

Pastrami on it.

[Matt Gourley]

That's a bad conversation.

[Conan O'Brien]

Me make good talk. Me make good talk. Not bad talk.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, but you're. No, you're part of. You grew up on these people, right? You know what I'm talking about. You grew up on various versions of that. All of the different late night hosts offered you a different version of how to do it. Right. And when that goes away as a model. Who's left?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, there's a lot of things I could say about it, but I do think that the architecture of a late night show for a long time was kill time, meaning when the form comes along. Because in the late 40s, early 50s, someone at NBC realizes we just go off the air at 11 o'clock at night. Why do we do that? Yeah, it's like a family that discovers we've got an attic. Why don't we go up there, finish the attic, and suddenly we've got three more bedrooms. So the early late night shows are people killing time. And that's what they are for a long time, is killing time. And a lot of good conversation comes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Out of killing time.

[Conan O'Brien]

Comes out of killing time. What happens is there's a lot of money in it, then there's more competition and television and media in general speeds up and there's more and more pressure on them. And then suddenly it's, well, you can't sit and have a long conversation. There needs to be a lot of energy. There needs to be a lot of. It has to be frenetic, the pace of it. And if you look, if someone ever does a study on late night television, go back and watch Carson and watch early Letterman, even the earlier versions of my show or early episodes in the early 90s, there is a slower pace.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I mean, to some extent, podcasts such as this have filled that void. Because we're slowing down, right? We are.

[Conan O'Brien]

Or choosing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We're basically killing time right now, Conan. I mean.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, we are killing time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We are. Yes. But I don't have anywhere to be. Do you have anywhere to be? I don't have anywhere to be.

[Conan O'Brien]

I haven't had anywhere to be in four years. FedEx doesn't know your small business yet. Hey, whatever your business, FedEx knows the last thing you want to worry about is complex shipping. Yeah, you know what I mean? When it's like, wait, which of the nine different categories of shipping is this? Who needs that in their life?

[Sona Movsesian]

I don't.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's why there's FedEx One Rate. Zona, did you know that with FedEx One Rate, you can ship your holiday packets cheaper than the Post Office?

[Sona Movsesian]

I didn't know that.

[Conan O'Brien]

Sorry, Post Office. I'm a patriotic American. But FedEx got you beat on this one. Send packages as low as $14.50 for small boxes. It's simple, it's reliable, it's predictable. With FedEx one rate, you'll know your business's shipping costs ahead of time. That's Nice.

[Sona Movsesian]

I love that.

[Conan O'Brien]

Guessing and stressing not included when you use FedEx one rate so you can spend less time on shipping and more time on what really matters. Growing your business. Sona, you gotta get a business and start growing it. Okay. Okay. Visit FedEx.com OneRight for details. Exclusion supply valid 10624 through 11925. FedEx one rate. Two day retail shipping one flat rate. Loving a pet often means wondering if you're providing the care they need. Is there a health issue lurking around the corner? Hmm. It's a question we all ask ourselves. Does the pet need something or feel something, but can't say it? My pets are actually quite clear with me.

[Sona Movsesian]

Oh, thanks.

[Conan O'Brien]

They speak perfect English.

[Sona Movsesian]

They talk.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. But a lot of people don't have animals that speak perfect English. Petivity is there for you. Petivity. Health kits and smart products use data and best in class technology to learn your pet's behaviors and alert you to key changes you can act on. Petivity is reimagining pet care with a family of products designed to help give your pet a voice and empower you to provide the best care possible. Sounds good. Visit P E T I v I t y.com to learn more. God, I'm looking forward to the holiday party this year. We have a staff holiday party that is. And I'm going to use. It's a new term that the kids use. You probably haven't heard it before. Off da hook.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh.

[Conan O'Brien]

And.

[Sona Movsesian]

Yep.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, no. Yep. Just heard that on the street the other day.

[Sona Movsesian]

That's right.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I love our party. And one of the things I love about it is we always elevate it with Miller Lite. I like it when things taste like Miller time. I do. It's the taste you can depend on. No games, no gimmicks. Miller Lite's brewed for taste. It hits different than any other light beers. And here's the clue, right? You're thinking, like, how do they do it? It's simple ingredients. Sometimes people are doing a beer and they're like, oh, we'll add oregano. Hey, I have an idea. There's a spice I found. I found a spice in Middle Earth. No, it's so simple. Simple ingredients. Malted barley for rich, balanced toffee note flavors and an iconic golden color. It's the original light beer since 1975 when Red Sox won the pennant. And it's still the best one. We all get together, we're around the fire pit, we're having a good time, and we're quaffing, we're drinking down those Miller Lights. Glug, glug, glug, glug. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Making memories at year end gatherings with your staff, whether it's Chaz Billington, Phil Rockingham, Stu Mulaney, Bix Tazenhaser. Tastes like Miller time. Go to millerlight.comconan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Tastes like Miller Times. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Fewer calories and carbs than premium regular beer.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I've noticed that you. There's a chapter of this book that you have not mentioned at all, which is for reasons that I think will become obvious.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's the chapter where I attack Harvard University. You're alma mater.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm all in favor of attacking Harvard University.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There is an extended. There is an extended assault. You know that this is.

[Conan O'Brien]

I was, you know, I wasn't hiding from that chapter. There's so much to talk about. But you talk about how it starts with Harvard has a women's rugby team.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. And I.

[Conan O'Brien]

And you. And you basically say, why? Why? And you go ahead, you take it. By the way, I was on the women's rugby team. I got a scholar. That's how I got my scholarship.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The. You should. First of all, I should say, parenthetically, that no one spends more time attacking the Ivy League than me. It's my. I was. That's why God put me on this earth. I feel that's my. Yeah. I've done it so many times on my podcast that whenever I come up with my new attack, which I do every year, it's just. Everyone just in the room just rolls their eyes. That's. We could do a whole. Put Malcolm on the couch. Why is he so obsessed with him? But put that aside. The particular argument here is based on. I'm trying to figure out. Harvard University, where you attended, is.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can't hide from that anymore.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You can't hide from that anymore.

[Conan O'Brien]

1981-85.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. They plays more Division 1 sports than any other college in the country. No one else is even close. People don't realize this. You always think the big sports school is like Clemson or something. No, no, no. It's Harvard. They have more student athletes than anyone else. And not only that, they give a massive admissions preference to their recruited athletes. So the easiest Way to get into Harvard is not to be the best student in your class, it's to be the best athlete in your class.

[Conan O'Brien]

But also very specific athletic endeavors. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the sports they really, really, really, really care about are. And let's see whether you can detect some kind of common denominator. Rowing, fencing, sailing, rugby, tennis. It's country club sports. Right. So I do a whole chapter on why would they bend over the. Bend over backwards to participate in all of these country club sports and don't know that. To give massive. Basically to do an affirmative action program for the athletes in the sports. And the answer is because, you know, a sport like tennis, to be a recruited tennis player, you have to play Division 1 tennis. To play Division 1 tennis, your parents has to be willing to spend 50 to 100 grand a year.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's enormously expensive.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Enormously expensive. So when I say I'm setting aside four admission slots every year for tennis players, what I'm really saying is I'm setting aside four admission slots for the children of people who have enough Money to spend $100,000 on their kids ground strokes. So it's a way of making sure that enough rich kids attend your school. It's really obvious. Yeah, right. And like this drives me crazy because I'm someone who believes very strongly in the idea of a meritocracy. And I think it's one of the most beautiful things about this country. And the idea that the reigning symbol of meritocracy in this country is essentially going out of its way to reward kids who play rich kids sport like sailing. Think of it. Admissions preference for kids who are good at sailing. It's just, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, maybe they're going to grow up to be fishermen, lobstermen, you know, I mean, they're going to probably go to sea and explore the oceans. I mean, I think most of those kids are going to end up right, hauling crab. Yeah, that's right.

[Sona Movsesian]

Yeah. That's why they're doing it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, I think so. Well, there's another. Okay, this brings up another point which is that because when I read that I thought, shit, I should have done some fencing. I worked way too hard in high school.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That would have been much easier.

[Conan O'Brien]

I should have been a champion beekeeper. But the bigger point is that people can eventually game anything. That's the way I feel about it. Is that. Because the other point is, okay, let's set all the rich kids who are playing those sports aside and say, okay, we really want it to be a Meritocracy. So we're gonna have it be about the sat. People can game that because parents hire SAT tutors. There's billions of dollars spent a year making sure that kids are very familiar with that test. I think it still does test people who are off the charts in certain. But what I'm saying is that no matter what you do, I mean, we've seen this on Wall Street a million times. You set up these rules, someone will find a small crack. Someone will say, hey, wait a minute. No one ever said anything about mortgage backed securities. Bang. Yeah, everybody's doing it. And then the whole system collapses. And we wonder, wait a minute. Why did that guy who works on a garbage truck own nine properties? You know, what is going on?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I once, you know, speaking of the sat, I once challenge my assistant to the lsat because that'd be really fun. I got a tutor. I went through that whole process. And the hilarious thing, of course about the tutor was the first thing he said. I had to learn to quote process without understanding. Which. What meaning Which I thought was hilarious because it's a test designed to measure your aptitude for being a lawyer. And the test for being a lawyer can only be. You can only do well is if. If you learn how to process without understanding. If my lawyer came to me and said, I processed your case without understanding it, I think I'd be a little bit alarmed. So that it was like.

[Conan O'Brien]

Sounds like a good lawyer, though. Yeah. And I have a lot to say about the Little Mermaid. That's not contract law.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, but it does. I was powered. I never. Because, you know, in Canada we don't have. I'm Canadian, we don't have standardized tests. I knew nothing about these. I moved to America after college and I hear people talk about the SAT and it sounds like some kind of strange holy. Right. You know, And I was so kind of curious that at certain point in my life I decided I had to do. And I, I went. I sat in that big room with hundreds of other people. I was the only person over the age of like 25. And I ended up tying my assistant.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, okay.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Which I thought was good.

[Conan O'Brien]

I.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The money was on her because she's 24 and the general consensus around the office is I didn't stand a chance because I obviously lost so many brain cells.

[Matt Gourley]

What was your score?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I don't remember. It was, it was not impressive. Basically, I was headed. I was headed for a mediocre law school, which. That's fine. Someone's got to be.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, here's the other thing too, I mean, I've said this to everybody I've ever encountered in this business is that I have had the privilege of working with so many talented, amazing, funny people who are great at what they do. And often I don't know where they went to college because the amount of pressure we put on that is insane. And you talk a lot about resilience and people who are not from a monoculture, but people who are forced to be resilient and the great benefits that that has. And I don't know, I just, I'm always.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I thought you were going to tell us your SATs. I thought that's what you were.

[Conan O'Brien]

I intentionally forgot my SAT score. I intentionally. If you could. I selected which brain cells I could forget and I forgot those.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, I have your. I had that chapter. Another chapter of the book where I read in. I ran across a bunch of articles by these two sociologists, Anna Muller and Seth Arbiton. And they were talking about a town they would only call Poplar Grove. And they had been working there, studying it for years. And it was, they described it and I later figured out what town it was and went there for myself and confirmed it. It's the perfect, it literally is the perfect community. If you went, if you went there, you would say it's like upper income, on the water, creditably tight knit.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's like Gilmore Girls or something. Well, I'm sorry, lights in the trees at night.

[Sona Movsesian]

And I didn't not expect you to say Gilmore Clinton.

[Conan O'Brien]

My neuron misfired and you laughed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Those are some rich literary illusions that you're, that you're working with Conan.

[Conan O'Brien]

Favorite Bronte novel is Gilmore Girls.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no. So it's so Poplar Grove. Yes, high school, best state, you know, every amenity under the sun. And they had had a suicide epidemic at the high school for that had gone on way, way, way, way longer and in. It was incredibly heartbreaking. And these two, Muller and Arberton sort of do all this analysis and their conclusion is that one of the big problems with the town, the reason this has happened, is that it was a high school that only had one culture. So it, you know, it. I'm sure your high schools too. My high school, like a normal high school, it had like 10 different cliques you could join, you know, the jocks and the nerds and the whatever. And the point of that is it's powerfully protective that any child coming into that high school, no matter how dysfunctional they may feel, can find a home. There was A place you could go if you were. You know, we called them stoners, but in my high school, which is rural Canada, that meant you smoked cigarettes. Quaint. Yeah, but if you wanted to be a quote unquote stoner and smoke Marlboro Lights, there was a place for you. Right.

[Matt Gourley]

How'd you make it out of there?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, no, no, yeah, exactly. My high school was so tame in retrospect, I don't even know. It's just. It seems like a kind of fantasy that it even exists.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, I was. Yeah, in the same way. I went to a very large public high school. There were kids who weren't gonna go to college. You know what I mean? Their dads worked for the town. There were kids whose parents were professionals who wanted to go to an Ivy League school. There were. I mean, there was just this large swath of almost every kind of kid you could imagine. There was something called school within a school where there are very artistic and kids that could set their own schedule. But there was just. And then there was a large immigrant population. We had. This is the late 70s, we had some students whose parents had fled Iran. We had students who were from China. And so it was great in that it sounds like the exact opposite of this Poplar Grove.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And the thing you understand is. Yeah, so imagine what Poplar Grove is, is a city, a town and a high school where there's only one of those groups where every, every child is required to conform to the super sporty, socially successful on their way to Ivy League model. And so if you don't fit and work in that incredibly narrow description, there's nowhere for you to go. There's only one culture. And the epidemic they had was the result of was the consequences of that kind of narrowness. And it made me interesting because it made me realize in all of our discussions about diversity, we sometimes make diverse. Achieving a diverse environment, make it seem like it's medicine, like it's the right thing to do, but it's hard.

[Conan O'Brien]

Eat your vegetables.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But in fact, in this example, diversity is what makes up community resilient. It means that any problem that one group has isn't necessarily going to spread to other groups because they're different right there. And I just thought that was really, you know, and the idea that the parents of this town, this is the community they wanted for their kids. They moved there because it was perfect. They are the ones who supported the notion that we should have this incredibly strong, unified set of values about what it means to be a successful student at the school. And then they were somehow baffled by the fact that everything went sideways. And I, you know, this as a Coming back to my new parenthood. This is what. The only observation I will make about parenting is that this confusion between what we want and what our children need seems to be the principle. That's the principal conflict of. I always catch myself thinking. And I'll very confidently say to Kate, my partner, I'll say, you know, I think Edie should do this, right? And in fact, what I'm saying is, I would like to do this. And I'm using her as a kind of front right to.

[Conan O'Brien]

You want a cigarette?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I want a cigarette.

[Conan O'Brien]

Edie. Edie, come on. Go down and get a pack. You like, owner.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But this was the worst. This was the kind of. This was the biggest version of that problem that, like, parents are just like. There's this woman who wrote a book, a woman named Linda Flanagan, wrote a book called Taking Back the Game, which is all about what's wrong with youth sports. And she's always. She was a coach for many years. It's a really brilliant book. And she has this moment when she talks about, like, possible fixes. And one of her fixes is that parents need to stop going to games. And it's the same idea that. Because what happens, of course, it's pleasurable for the parent to go to the game. There's no one's denying that, but the parent is confusing what's pleasurable for them and what's pleasurable for their kids. And the question is, does your child want you? They are really, like, deep down. And, you know, by what we're doing when we show up for those games is we are. We are intruding on what should be this kind of. This time for kids to play with other kids without the scrutiny of. And the pressure that comes from parents watching. Like, that's the perfect, you know, example of this. And I made me wonder, how many times do we. Is this what, you know, I'm a young parent. Is this what parenting turns into, this constant conflict?

[Conan O'Brien]

Look, we talked about this. I think we had a guest here the other day. I think it was Josh Brolin. And we were talking about his upbringing. And I was saying what I would always say to my wife when the kids were little is, remember, it's important that they're bored. Because I think one of the things that's come along with super parenting in this age is that a child needs to be activated and engaged and entertained at all times. And I swear to God, I, you know, I'm one of six. And there was a lot of. You know, I say this. A lot of benign neglect, meaning no one on my ass not being helicopter just because my parents worked. There was a lot going on.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What number were you?

[Conan O'Brien]

Third.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay. Oh, you're right.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And so I. I just remembered having a lot of time with my brain, and it was nightmarish.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But I was bored for the first eight years of my life. And I would complain to my mother and she would say exactly that. She would say, it's good for you to be bored.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And look at us here.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Here we are.

[Conan O'Brien]

Here we are, having the greatest conversation. Well, I have to wrap this up because we've gone.

[Matt Gourley]

You've solved it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, first of all, I think we've solved the engineering of humanity. And you and I, if we're just put in charge, can fix everything. It's a testament to your book that I read it. And it's got me thinking about 700 different things in different ways. And so.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Thank you.

[Conan O'Brien]

And that is. That is the power that you seem to have is just raising these issues. And also it goes back to that concept that I was talking about earlier, which is we can all be tricked, we can all be conned, we can all be manipulated. It's really fascinating. The more you think about it, I think the more you build up some sort of resilience towards it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And a little bit of immunity where you can think, wait a minute, is this what I want? Or do I want this? Because this is the way everything has been engineered by somebody, and it probably has.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I have a confession to make, which is that the entire time we've been talking, I've been. You have your notebook open. I've been trying to read upside down because I want to know, like, were your notes, when you made notes to yourself, were they different from the things were you like books? Terrible.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, I can just read it to you right now. Oh, fuck. Gladwell's coming. This is going to be another shit show. Hair not up to Gladwell standards. He's probably going to go after the Irish parentheses did last time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's right.

[Conan O'Brien]

He seems to have a real thing. Let's hope he doesn't bring up Harvard. I loved my time on women's rugby. It was my only way in. Why the fuck is he got such a bone to pick with my favorite sport? That's where I met Tracy. I mean, I don't know.

[Matt Gourley]

Hey, Tracy.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You shouldn't do that. You should. Why do you leave it out like that you're just distracting.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, I'm sorry. Look, I've got drawings.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, I see.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I've got 1963.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's the year I was born.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's the year I was born.

[Conan O'Brien]

I did a drawing of Senator Abe Ribicoff.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, my God. That is.

[Conan O'Brien]

What the fuck? I'm a strange man.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That is so fantastic. Ribicoff, the senator from New York State. Was he New York State or was he.

[Conan O'Brien]

I wanna say he was Connecticut. He was the one in the 1968 convention. Why did I draw Senator Abe Ribicoff?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wait, Conan, we're born in the same year. When's your birthday?

[Conan O'Brien]

April 18th.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay. I was just checking to make sure we weren't, in fact, born on the very same day.

[Conan O'Brien]

We were born in the same hospital and switched at birth. That's why we both have crazy hair.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Turns out you're the Jamaican against all of us.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. And you're a terrible alcoholic. Gladwell, I love talking to you. And clearly, I mean, this could go on for seven hours, but even podcasts have sped up and. But I do hope you'll come back. And I hope you'll come back, even if there isn't a book, if we can just chat. I love. I really enjoy it. I really enjoy it. And if the art of conversation is dead, I don't know what this was because I really thoroughly had a great time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

As did I. Thank you, Conan. Next time I'll be nicer about the. I feel I'm going to say I'm going to come up with something really. I'll think spend the next couple years coming up with just the right word, you know?

[Conan O'Brien]

You know what I think? I think you nailed it the first time. Yeah. Hey, thank you so much, Sir. Yeah.

[Matt Gourley]

Conan O'Brien needs a friend. With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Session and Matt Gourlay, produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross and Nick Liao. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer. Samples, engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Geena Batista and Brit Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco Hot at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign [e-mail] Conan and if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What's your boldest, truly ambitious life goal?

[Conan O'Brien]

Everyone has one, and everyone deserves a way to get there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's why estate offers a wide variety.

[Conan O'Brien]

Of ETFs to give all investors access to the market and the chance to reach their goals. Like with DIA, where you get 30 US blue chip stocks in a single trade wherever you're heading.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Getting there starts here with State Street.

[Conan O'Brien]

Before investing, consider the fund's investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Visit ssga.com for prospectus containing this and other information. Read it carefully. DIA is subject to risks similar to those of stocks. All ats are subject to risk, including possible loss of principal.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Conan O'Brien]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Conan O'Brien]

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