"It's Okay Not to Be Okay"

Summary

Concrete Mama: The Podcast

Episode: "It's Okay Not to Be Okay"

Date: July 8, 2026
Hosts & Voices: Anthony Koval (Ant), Nation, Bro PD, Josh, Richie Rich, Carey McGill, Nate, Mr. Jackson, Shantelle Acosta, Licensed Mental Health Counselor
Location: Washington State Penitentiary, Walla Walla

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Episode Overview

This deeply honest and raw episode of Concrete Mama centers on the complexities of mental health, trauma, healing, and authentic connection while living inside Washington State Penitentiary. Blending the voices of incarcerated men with mental health professionals—both inside and out—the episode explores the stigma of mental health, the burden of trauma, and the extraordinary potential for vulnerability and growth, even within prison walls.
The heart of the episode beats strongest in its open group conversations, where members share their struggles with trust, belonging, and self-forgiveness; and in its celebration of "Neurodiversity" circles—a homegrown support space that’s changing lives from the inside out.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Establishing Safe Space and Community Agreements

• The episode begins with careful articulation of community agreements, setting principles of gratitude, safety, confidentiality, healing, and collective trauma (00:44–02:31).
  • “We agree that every voice is valuable. Everyone deserves to be heard and not repeated without consent.” — Richie Rich (01:31)
  • Emphasis on trauma as a shared, not competitive, experience; the sanctity of collective healing.

2. Naming and Facing Emotional Walls

• Nation shares his journey of recognizing walls built for self-protection that now isolate him:
  • “The walls that I had put up myself to protect myself were keeping me from building close relationships with the people that cared about me… That breaks my heart.” — Nation (03:57)
• Discussion of how trauma breeds hypervigilance, triggers withdrawal, and blocks connection (03:50–04:33).

3. Lost Identities and Rock Bottom

• Nation reflects on the pain of losing external achievements and being forced to face his real self after incarceration stripped everything away (05:45–07:21):
  • “Sometimes you have to go to the bottom. You gotta feel all the pain… to figure out what’s important.” — Nation (06:49)

4. Outsider and Insider Perspectives on Mental Health Stigma

• Guest Carey McGill (Licensed Mental Health Counselor) describes 20 years in the field—five spent in the penitentiary—highlighting differences in stigma inside versus outside (07:36–10:18).
  • “On the inside, it was seen as a weakness if you needed to be evaluated or supported... that there was something seriously wrong with you. In some cases, that was actually true. Prisons end up with severely mentally ill people, which is a failure of our society.” — Licensed Mental Health Counselor (10:18)

5. Impact of Incarceration on the Mind

• Incarceration as dehumanizing “machine”:
  • “When you are incarcerated, your power, autonomy, and ability to make choices are taken away... you become really accustomed to that. The challenges of constantly being defined in terms other than your own is so painful.” — Licensed Mental Health Counselor (11:38–13:22)

6. Trust, Connection, and the Risk of Vulnerability

• Hosts share stories of childhood neglect, substance abuse in the family, and how learned mistrust leads to numbing out and emotional withdrawal (13:22–20:32):
  • “When you stop trusting and trying to connect, you lose connection with yourself. I’ve killed so many parts of myself just trying to exist, trying to be okay.” — Nation (13:22)
  • Carey McGill touches on Jungian concepts:
    • “The wound, as Jung understood, is also the way in. The place that broke open is the place the light enters.” — Carey McGill (15:47)

7. The Path of Healing and Self-Reflection

• Challenging the myth that you must “rehearse” trauma in therapy; the real work is curiosity about the self and reclaiming the “unlived life” (16:17–19:41):
  • “You do not heal by becoming someone else. You heal by becoming at last the one you've been this whole time.” — Carey McGill (21:03)
• Resilience begins with self-acceptance, not judgment.

8. Creating Spaces for Growth: The Neurodiversity Group

• The hosts credit the peer-led Neurodiversity group as foundational for healing and connection (24:29–26:53):
  • “That group has been the foundation for me being able to start digging with myself… I just want to grow it and help other people feel the same things.” — Nation (24:29)
  • Story of its inception: From skepticism (“I’m not going in there to talk about my feelings!”) to a movement (26:53–28:46).

9. Mental Health Culture Shift in Prison

• Shantelle Acosta, Psychology Associate, and Mr. Jackson discuss changes in language and culture, moving from ridicule to greater acceptance (29:18–35:00):
  • “Now mental health isn’t looked at with a black eye. Don’t man up. Open up.” — Mr. Jackson (32:01)
  • Discussion of “unpacking” emotional burdens – regardless of incarceration status.

10. Barriers to Trust and Self-Forgiveness

• Respectfully handling questions from men who struggle to trust anyone. Emphasis on the pain of loneliness and the challenge of self-forgiveness (36:33–38:26):
  • “Self-forgiveness doesn't have to be about atoning for anything. It's an acceptance, and acceptance is really difficult…” — Shantelle Acosta (37:46)

11. The Trap of Numbing Out

• Ant and others reflect on dissociation as a long-used defense—and how it stops working (38:28–40:29):
  • “This place will poison you… You wake up and not know how you got to a place where you don’t care what happens that day. You don’t even care if you get out of bed.” — Ant (39:03)

12. Generational Trauma and Growth

• Bro PD and others open up about struggling with identity, belonging as a Pacific Islander, and the devastating effects of family separation and abuse (40:39–44:02).
• The essential role of the group in processing lingering wounds.

13. Conflict, Growth, and Authenticity in Community

• The group doesn’t shy away from discord or imperfection; managing conflicts is just as crucial for healing as sharing joys (45:28–47:37):
  • “Everybody in this group has pissed me off at least once sometime in group. Being able to cope with that and still build positive relationships... That’s growth.” — Ant (45:33)
  • Richie Rich calls for emotional authenticity:
    • “It’s okay to not be okay. It’s also okay to be okay. You don’t have to come with some painful thing each week. You can talk about the rainbow you saw outside.” — Richie Rich (47:37)

14. Humanity Beyond Labels

• Powerful reflections on being seen for who you are, not just as a “prisoner” (52:09–54:20):
  • “We’re not prisoners. We’re people who are incarcerated currently. That’s not our identity. We’re breaking that mold.” — Richie Rich (53:00)
  • The act of “humanizing” themselves, each other, even prison staff, is radical in their context.

15. Resilience, Self-Compassion, and Comparative Suffering

• Ant moves toward acceptance:
  • “Being able to build relationships with others, man, is the only thing keeping me going. Even when I don’t feel like coming, I show up because maybe I’ll help someone else—or they’ll help me.” — Ant (58:49)
• Nate’s favorite rule:
  • “Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who somebody else is today.” — Nate (59:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You do not heal by becoming someone else. You heal by becoming at last the one you've been this whole time.”

  • Carey McGill (21:03)

• “Don’t man up. Open up. If you don’t open up, you’re in danger.”

  • Mr. Jackson (32:01)

• “All I know in my adult life is prison… our days are scheduled. Out there it’s not as rigid as that. When you get out, like what do I do? Do I just go outside?”

  • Bro PD (41:47–42:10)

• “It’s okay to not be okay. It’s also okay to be okay. You don’t have to come with some painful thing each week… just be authentically me in every space.”

  • Richie Rich (47:37)

• “We’re not prisoners. We’re people who are incarcerated currently. That’s not our identity. …We’re humanizing each other, and by doing that, we’re humanizing everybody else.”

  • Richie Rich (53:00)

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Practical Tools Shared

• Box Breathing Exercise: (23:09–24:14)
  • “In for four seconds through the nose, hold for four, out for four, hold for four.”
• Peer-Led Groups and Community Circles: Safe spaces where vulnerability and healing are practiced, and barriers are challenged.

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Historical Segment: Women’s Prisons (63:46–67:44)

A brief history interlude details the hardships and injustices facing incarcerated women in Washington—from the story of “the queen of the fakers” Maude Myrtle Johnson to medical abuse in the 1800s. The segment connects historic inhumanity to ongoing themes of dehumanization and the urgent need for change.

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Closing Reflections

• The fundamental message: Healing is possible when we dare to be real, sit with our pain, risk being known, and connect with others—even in the harshest circumstances.
• The Neurodiversity group—formed by and for men inside—is a unique model for compassionate, transformative peer support.
• Concrete Mama insists that being “okay” is not an endpoint but an ongoing journey, and that the “real work” is done in community, not isolation.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Community Agreements | 00:44–02:31 | | Nation on Emotional Walls | 02:39–03:57 | | Trauma & Self-Realization | 03:50–07:21 | | Licensed Mental Health Counselor on Stigma | 07:55–10:18 | | Insight: Dehumanization of Incarceration | 11:38–13:22 | | Therapy & Self-Curiosity | 16:17–19:41 | | The Unlived Life & Self-Acceptance | 21:03–21:40 | | Breathing Exercise Introduction | 23:09–24:14 | | Neurodiversity Group Origin Story | 24:29–28:46 | | Prison Attitude Toward Mental Health (Mr. Jackson/Shantelle) | 29:03–35:00 | | Self-Forgiveness and Shame | 36:33–38:26 | | Dissociation and Numbing Out | 38:28–40:29 | | Generational Trauma & Personal Growth | 40:39–44:02 | | Conflict and Growth in Community | 45:28–47:37 | | Rainbow Story & Authenticity (Richie Rich) | 47:37–52:44 | | Humanization – Beyond “Prisoner” | 53:00–54:20 | | Ant’s Self-Reflection on Relationships & Growth | 54:52–59:02 | | “Compare Yourself to Who You Were Yesterday” (Nate) | 59:45 | | Women’s Prison History Segment | 63:46–67:44 |

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Tone and Language

This episode is candid and heartfelt, alternating between raw vulnerability, philosophical musing, moments of humor, and the fierce urgency of lived experience inside prison. The language is a mix of plainspoken, poetic, and therapeutic—always grounded in real talk and empathy.

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Final Thought

Concrete Mama delivers a transformative message: “It’s okay not to be okay.” Real healing is messy, nonlinear, and must be done together. In prison or out, humanity’s deepest longings—to be seen, accepted, and healed—require both courage and community.

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Transcript

[Craig Jackson]

This program contains mature language that may

[Ant]

not be suitable for all listeners.

[Craig Jackson]

Discretion is advised.

[Carey McGill]

Welcome. Sit down. Why don't you tell me what's on your mind today? I know talking can feel intimidating, but I get it. This is a space that's meant to feel open. Let's talk together.

[Nation]

Let's start with these community agreements.

[Ant]

Ant, if you wouldn't mind doing honors.

[Bro PD]

Man, you want to hit off that first month for us?

[Josh]

Yeah, absolutely. Number one of the neurodiversity community agreements is we recognize that our attitudes and behaviors can affect others. This space is sacred. We are grateful for being allowed to participate and will be as present as we are able. We agree to contribute to the safety of the space in the best way that we know how. We will value people and connections.

[Ant]

Oh, thank you.

[Nation]

Everybody good with that?

[Josh]

Absolutely.

[Ant]

Go ahead, Nate.

[Nate]

If you need to take a break, please do. If we see someone looking low or out of it, we agree to be there for them in the best way that we know how.

[Richie Rich]

What is said here stays here. What we learn, we take with us. We agree that every voice is valuable. Everyone deserves to be heard and not repeated without consent.

[Nation]

No one is perfect. We agree that this is a space of giving and healing, not taking and harming. The opposite of what we know can also be true for others. And we appreciate this as a growing space, not a confining one.

[Ant]

So we agree that we all have

[Mr. Jackson]

experienced trauma and that no individual's trauma is intrinsically more significant or impactful than another's. We acknowledge and recognize that our collective

[Nation]

trauma is a shared experience that can

[Mr. Jackson]

bring us closer together.

[Josh]

Number six. Our experiences are not always universal, but the feelings that we navigate often are. We accept that what works for us

[Bro PD]

may not work for others. Number seven. Every conversation is cooperative. We agree that we are not here to prove anyone right or wrong.

[Nation]

Number eight. Everyone deserves an opportunity to speak and to be heard.

[Ant]

We agree to give everyone room to share.

[Nation]

I think it's cool that we got eight people here. And there was eight.

[Richie Rich]

Eight.

[Ant]

Right on the dot, right on the way.

[Nation]

So there was a lot of stuff that I stirred up yesterday. And when certain things started coming up and certain questions started getting asked, it got a little too much. It got a little overwhelming. I could feel my stuff get blocked. I can tell when I'm talking, but I'm not really saying what I want to say, and that's how I was feeling.

[Carey McGill]

Why do you think that is?

[Nation]

I think I'm. A lot of me is scared because I don't know how to hold on to that feeling, man. I got a glimpse of it and now I know that it's there. It reminded me of something I ain't felt for a long time, since I was a kid. That something that I let life stamp out or take away from me. And now that it's been reignited and I found it again, I'm scared that I'm not going to be able to hold onto it. And I don't know how to hold onto it. I'm still figuring that out. Some days I wake up just like everybody else, better than others, you know. Some days I get a little further away and I have to check myself or I remember, you know, I'll be in a. In a conversation when I feel myself, my heart getting fast and I'm feeling disconnected and I'm looking around and not really present.

[Carey McGill]

Trauma tends to make us hyper vigilant. That would make sense in your situation, Nation.

[Nation]

It was really heartbreaking for me to realize that the walls that I had put up myself to protect myself were keeping me from building close relationships with the people that cared about me and the people that I wanted to care about. That shit breaks my heart.

[Carey McGill]

We all do that. Something happens to us, maybe we grow up, maybe we go through a crisis. Maybe it's trauma. It's okay to rebuild yourself after something like what you've gone through. It's even more okay to acknowledge that it hurt you, that it changed you.

[Nation]

I recognize it now. I'm not distracting myself from it. I'm not ignoring it anymore. I can't forget that feeling, that, that real life, that alive feeling. That connection, bro. That connection. That connection is everything. I want to be able to feel that all the time. That's what makes me so adamant about, about figuring this out, man, about fighting this. I want to feel better and I don't want to let down the people around me. But this, you know, this soil is fertile. I just need to hop into it and trust myself to navigate through it.

[Carey McGill]

Breathe in, Breathe out. Breathe in, Breathe out. Who were you before all of this?

[Nation]

I was at a really good place in my life. From the outside looking in. I had a really good job. It just. I just actually got promoted, was in a salary position and I was essentially just able to hang out in my community and try to provide resources for people and be a part of people trying to do better with their life and trying to get in better situations. So I was really proud of that. I felt really good about that, being in that position and making it to that point. Might have made me get a little bit complacent or comfortable and stop looking internally as much with some of the work that I was able to ignore or distract myself from doing, because I'm doing all these things that look really good and feel really good. I don't think I realized until I was locked up and all of that stuff got stripped away and I got left with nothing and the prospect of having nothing and ostensibly being nothing for a long period of time that I realized all the things that I was doing to make it look like I was doing the right thing and make it seem like from the outside looking in, like all that didn't mean anything to me. Like it wasn't making my life fulfilling. It was all really cool stuff that I wish I had the capacity to appreciate as much as I do now and as much I'm striving to get to the place where I can do that, because I was set, but I didn't see it and I didn't feel it. You know, sometimes you have to go to the bottom. You gotta feel all the pain. You gotta literally be at rock bottom to push it in perspective and figure out what's important and figure out what's wrong. Also,

[Carey McGill]

what would it be like to seek help, help, help.

[Ant]

This is Concrete Mama, the podcast.

[Anthony Koval]

Hey, y'.

[Bro PD]

All.

[Anthony Koval]

This is your host, Anthony Koval with Concrete mom of the podcast. And I got a special guest today here to talk about mental health with us. It is my pleasure to be able to sit across here from Carey McGill Kerry. If you don't mind, tell us a bit about your background, what drew you into mental health work, and what experience or training make you feel most equipped to speak about trauma and resilience?

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

I have a master's degree in counseling psychology, and I'm a licensed mental health counselor in Washington State. I'm licensed in a couple other states as well, but that's my primary place. I've been a therapist for 20 years and working with all different populations of people, and I did five years working at Washington State Penitentiary. So have a sense of the incarcerated population and what it means to get mental health services there.

[Anthony Koval]

One of the biggest things I think is important about this conversation and you being able to have the duality of both inside and outside experience, is you're going to have what we call QB vision. You're going to see much more of the playing field because you have both aspects of it. So in your view, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people hold about mental health both in the public. And when it comes to people who

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

are incarcerated, I know we've been battling the stigma related to mental health for so long, certainly for my entire career. I think on the outside, it kind of comes down to, like, when you hear somebody say, oh, that person needs therapy, it usually has a negative connotation, like there's something wrong with them or they have a complaint or they're weird or crazy, or we don't like something about them. Whereas when I, as a mental health professional, when I look at somebody, I'm like, wow, they need therapy. What I mean by it is, like, they need a space that is entirely their own to feel safe, to explore whatever is standing in their way. And so I think that stigma of, like, the things that we don't understand becomes a barrier.

[Nation]

Man, I got these guys on the team, man, that be looking out for me and be supporting me and trying to help me break this stuff down. I know it's frustrating, too. I know it's frustrating for other people to care so much about me and want to be able to help and support me, and I'm getting in my own way.

[Carey McGill]

Some of it was loaded onto you before you could speak. We don't need to pretend otherwise. This is the thing I need you to hear between what is yours to carry and what you have claimed, because no one else seems to be claiming it, because you thought if you held on tightly enough, it would stop being heavy. It does not stop being heavy, but you are allowed to set it down

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

on the inside. My observation is it was seen as a weakness if there was something about you that needed to be evaluated or supported through mental health, that there was something seriously wrong with you. And in some cases, that was actually true. I mean, prisons really end up with severely mentally ill people, which is a failure of our society and a huge burden for the prison system to try to do well. So on the inside, I was more doing a lot of assessment, and I had this heart to want to provide what would be considered true therapy for a lot of the incarcerated people that I worked with. But it was a hard environment to do because it wasn't inherently safe and not often supported to do that.

[Anthony Koval]

So you said something true therapy. What is that from your perspective?

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

Therapy is a really sacred space that gets created for somebody needing to answer a question for themselves or understand something deeper about what they've been through or where they're going or what's standing in their way. And the therapeutic space gives permission, without barriers, to explore what is necessary with somebody who's just like with you, not inhibiting you or trying to make your story their own based on your experience.

[Anthony Koval]

How does incarceration impact a person's mental health differently from the mental health challenges people face outside?

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

I think the really standout difference is that when you're incarcerated, you are being dehumanized in so many ways. And so your power and your autonomy and your ability to make choices for yourself is being taken away, and you're being put into this, I mean, for lack of a better word, like a machine where now you have to do certain things at certain times. And like, depending on where you are, like everybody, there's like a flow in prison that is like a machine, and everybody, like, becomes really accustomed to that. So there is a really huge downside, which is the dehumanizing across the board. But then there is this other side where it's like some of the choices that you could have been making are now no longer an option. Now you're having to sit with something that in another environment, you wouldn't be doing right. You would be out trying to figure out how to resolve this, either in a healthy way or in a coping kind of way that with, you know, a variety of consequences. I mean, I think that if you are an incarcerated individual and you are self committed to finding ways to grow within that environment, it's possible. But I think the challenges of constantly being defined in terms other than your own is so painful. That's so painful. And I saw that often where that would happen and have huge impacts and then trigger old stuff for men who had never been able to work through their trauma, because who was ever going to support them in doing that?

[Nation]

When you're trying to figure it out, life hurts, man. Life's painful. Life is struggle. It is. And it teaches you that expressing yourself and trying different things and putting trust in people can be a really dangerous thing. It can end up biting you, it burns you, and it can hurt. I think the key is not letting life convince you that that's always the case. Because when you stop trusting people and you stop taking risks and you stop trying to connect with people, you lose connection with yourself. You lose a part of yourself. I've killed so many parts of myself just trying to exist, trying to be okay, trying to make sure I'm safe. You know, whether it's issues that you have at the house with your parents or your siblings, or maybe you're getting bullied or not fitting in at school and so you feel unloved and not valued, or maybe your Friends turned out to be more convenient than actually, you know, having love for you. And they turn out to be people you didn't expect them to be. Or maybe other people were just letting you down. You know, you have expectations on what you think other people are supposed to be. And when people let you down, it can. It can hurt you and make you feel like, well, I can't trust nobody no more. I can't depend on anybody. It's only me. It's myself.

[Carey McGill]

Trusting people and being with people sometimes can feel dangerous. For us, it means being seen. I mean, showing up authentically. But when you're seen and you feel accepted, it can be the most beautiful experience.

[Nation]

When you have that support, man, when you're. When you're connected and feel loved by other people, it helps you pick yourself back up and endure that stuff. You learn from it, you know, and you never want to forget, but you keep going. And you keep going with purpose and intention, not just existing. Being hurt to that extent and not having the support, not having the love can turn you from somebody who wants to really experience life and do all these crazy things and have these creative dreams to somebody who just doesn't want to be hurt anymore. And if you're moving in fear and you're moving trying to protect yourself and you're not moving with love and intention and purpose, you start to lose yourself

[Carey McGill]

sometimes. It's only when we lose everything that we can sit down with ourselves. The wound, Carl Jung understood is also the way in. The place that broke open is the place the light enters. And also the place you enter down into yourself to the level where the. The self is not yet a self, but only a wanting.

[Licensed Mental Health Counselor]

It really begins with the self. Like, it really begins with a curiosity about who you are and what's going on. Because you could go to a thousand therapists and a thousand support groups and all sorts of programs that are. That are so expensive, all the way down to free. And if you are sitting there thinking that somebody is going to change your life, life for you, we have missed an opportunity for the kind of reflection that will actually bring about the. The awareness that I would hope you are looking for. And so just beginning with saying, what am I curious about? Oftentimes people think that they have to go to therapy to talk about all of their traumas, which sounds like the worst thing. Like, let's stop. Let's have the worst conversation in the world, and that'll be really healing. It doesn't become necessary to rehearse the trauma. It becomes necessary to acknowledge that it has occurred and work with your therapist to find a way to do it in a safe manner. So I think oftentimes that can be a barrier. Like, I don't want to go tell people, like, what I did or where. Like, these horrible things that have happened to me or the way that people have harmed me in the past, like, that is really hard. So sort of moving that out of the way and saying, what do I want to understand?

[Nation]

The experiences that I had growing up taught me to hide myself. I grew up in a house where substance abuse was a really big thing. Pops wasn't really around. He was struggling with addiction that I didn't know about. When I was younger. My mom was struggling with alcoholism. I. I really had to find my own way when I was younger. I had to fend for myself. I had to figure out how to make my own ends meet. So I couldn't really depend on anybody. And it wasn't just that I couldn't depend on people to get things done and get my needs met. But there's. There's a whole mental and emotional side to that, too. Like, I didn't feel seen or valued in a lot of the different spaces I've been in, from kid to, you know, growing up in school, like, okay, accolades, getting good grades, getting these things, but you don't really. I didn't really feel seen as a person, you know, and getting into the streets. I'm getting all this praise for doing things that I don't really agree with, But I'm not really getting seen for being who I am.

[Carey McGill]

There is a part of you that was never allowed to be born into the light. It went underground instead, into the body, into the pattern you keep repeating into the door you keep walking through and being surprised what's on the other side. Young called it the shadow. Not the evil, not the monster, just the unlived life. The parts that were too much, too loud, too soft, too strange. The parts you learned to leave outside in the cold when you were small.

[Nation]

I don't think I've ever really felt valued. And I think being so scared and having to focus on protecting myself, numbing myself out, man, was my. Was my MO in every space that I was in, Convince myself I didn't care about. If I didn't feel like I was getting paid attention or getting the attention or the love that I needed it, I don't care.

[Carey McGill]

That makes sense when we say I don't care. It's a defense mechanism.

[Nation]

When I. When I convinced myself I didn't care about stuff like that, man. I. I gave up. I feel like I gave up on life. I feel like I gave up on there being a purpose, a higher calling.

[Carey McGill]

You're very hard on yourself. What is the biggest thing you felt you had to grapple with?

[Nation]

I've had to learn to really be gentle with myself and not blame myself for feeling this way and for experiencing the world this way. I've had to learn that the reason why I've put these walls up and blocked people out and not trusted people is because I've been trying to protect myself, because I've been trying to keep myself safe. I'm not broken. I'm not defective. But it took a long time for me to realize and be gentle with myself about why I am the way I am.

[Carey McGill]

You do not heal by becoming someone else. You heal by becoming at last the one you've been this whole time. Time. The one who has always been there, waiting in hold, keeping the ship afloat while you slept.

[Nation]

My defense mechanisms, man, to be honest, like, shouts out to them because they've kept me safe. They've got me to where I am. I've survived, I've endured, and so I can be proud of where I've gotten. But I know that I want so much more than that. I want so much more out of life. I want so much more out of my relationships with people. And I can't.

[Richie Rich]

I.

[Nation]

Now that I've seen that and I've seen what that can look like and really I felt what that can feel like. I've opened up my heart to what that can feel like. It's just a constant peeling of the layers, man. That's all I'm trying to do, is peel the layers back of that onion and open up my heart so I can feel that all the time. Because that made it all worth it and made all the pain worth it. I don't move from a place of trying to protect myself from pain anymore. I move from a place of trying to get back to that love and acceptance. I just want to be accepted, man. I just want to be loved. I just want to feel supported for who I am. Not for the things that I do, not for the places I've been. I want people to see me.

[Carey McGill]

We need people. We need people to get through the hard times, to recognize we are not alone. Everyone goes through pain. That doesn't mean your pain is invalid. Sometimes our defenses get in the way. But what would it be like to see that part of yourself, to accept him and let him sit in the room while you connect with others. Anyways,

[Nation]

Find a space that's comfortable. As you get there, just slowly start to close your eyes.

[Ant]

Start to slow down your breathing so

[Nation]

you can slow your heart rate. Start by taking deep breaths into your nose and out to your mouth at no particular pace. Just get two or three good ones in.

[Ant]

We're going to do a few breaths.

[Nation]

That's something that I was told is called box breathing. So we're going to go in for

[Ant]

four seconds through the nose, hold for

[Nate]

four seconds,

[Nation]

out for four seconds through your mouth and hold for four seconds. Go ahead and do that about three times.

[Ant]

To the tempo.

[Nation]

And that, that machine that we hear

[Ant]

outside the room, constant slow.

[Nation]

What's up, everybody?

[Mr. Jackson]

New here.

[Craig Jackson]

Here, man.

[Nation]

We've been doing this group for, I think over two years now. I know personally this, this group has been the foundation for me being able to start digging, right, digging with myself. It's a starting block that I. I

[Ant]

never want to let go of, man.

[Nation]

And I just want to grow it and help other people feel the same things that I've been feeling from doing stuff like this. And I appreciate all you brothers for. For being that safe space for me, man.

[Bro PD]

Thank you.

[Mr. Jackson]

Shit, you too.

[Bro PD]

Thank you guys for creating the safe space for us.

[Ant]

So, Ant, man, last two years, man, it's been. It's been a, what, two and a half now maybe since this program started. What, what did you see when you

[Nation]

first had the idea to put the this together?

[Josh]

I'm gonna be honest, bro, I don't know how it started. We was at spl, I was talking with Stevie B. And I was like, bro, man, I'm going through it because I was working on my clemency stuff at the time. And like, bro, I was like, bro, like, bro, I have all this stuff in my head, bro. I can't get out my head. Like, I'm tripping. Like, things are happening with my family, the things are happening on the streets, you know, Had a whole situation. One of my cousins got killed, and I was like, bro, I'm about to lose my mind, bro. He's like, bro, let's just pop it. So we started popping it. We go to a BPC meeting. And I remember we was doing the community circle, right? We always pose a question in that circle, like something of one thing or another, right? Something that's supposed to be heartfelt, what something means to you. And, you know, sometimes in that space, man, you get to see who's really, really sharing themselves and who's Just trying to just sound cute, you know what I mean? There was one circle that we had, man, where we were asked what freedom meant to you. And that was the first time. Ain't nobody was trying to say I'm cute. Ain't nobody was trying to say something too slick. I. I felt like I felt everybody's heart in that entire circle. And I was like, why don't we do this more? You know what I'm saying? Why don't we talk about something more like this, you know? Because not everyone's going to resonate with the question. But that question, when you're inside, what does freedom mean to you? That resonates with everybody, right? Because you don't have it right? It's stripped from you. So I came back to the unit

[Anthony Koval]

and I was like.

[Josh]

I wanted to do, like, a group therapy thing. Didn't know what to call it. And I actually remember I was talking to Josh about it, and Josh was like. I was telling Josh what I was going through, and he's like, this is what I do. Like, there's these neurocognitive behavior things. This will helps you, like, get your mindset right. And he was looking up stuff that they did for military. And I was like, bro, this can help more than just me. And so I asked. I was like, bro, we need to start some type of groups. I gotta give kudos to Josh, man. He's like, why don't you guys just call it neurodiversity, right? He said, you're all from different walks of life. You all experience things different. I was like, bro, that's a hoard name. And it was a tough sale because cats was like, man, I'm not going in there and talking about my feelings. You know what I'm saying? I was like, well, it's more just talking about your feelings, you know, Just talk about what you're going through. And I remember our first meeting that we had, bro, was like three or four of us in there, but we were stoked. We would go back there. And I remember cats would come by and be like, what are you guys doing? Like, man, come up in here, man. Come to Nero. You ain't even got to say nothing. Just come up in here and listen to what some brothers got to say. Just come up in here. And then, bro, I don't know how it happened, but that song circle grew so fast and got so big. It got so big. It was like, we got to do two groups, right? Like, we have to split it up. Because the intimacy that we were building with the five, six, seven guys we had. It was shutting guys down that was already there with new people coming in. So it was like a violation to the space. But you know what's crazy is that even though we try to split it up as people do, man, when they're hurting, we came together.

[Shantelle Acosta]

My name is Shantelle Acosta, and I have been working here for. Coming up on 12 years. I'm a psychology associate, so I've worked at a couple different areas of the facility. Most of my time has been spent in the residential treatment unit. It's inpatient care for mental health.

[Mr. Jackson]

What have you noticed about the culture inside in terms of just, like, people coming to you? Is it more frequent from when you first started now, or is it still kind of like you see judgmental eyes for people that come and get some mental health assistance?

[Shantelle Acosta]

I think over the years, it has gotten better from both the residents and the employees. Early on, especially as a lot of the older employees that had been here, you know, through the 80s, 90s, they used different language when they talked about mental health than what we use now, right? Call them dings. Their medications are ding biscuits. I know my early days up here, I do remember hearing there was a lot more, like, hesitation and talking to mental health and general population on our end.

[Mr. Jackson]

Like, when I first started doing time, I mean, 16 years ago, people would say things like that, even me in my ignorance, right? I've made like, oh, you know, yeah, they in that pill line or something like that. Well, really, when you're dealing with someone that has a. It's a chemical imbalance, or if you don't know what they. If. So they just got news that everybody in their family just moved away or somebody just got murdered or if their mom just got buried. And I, you know, I'm dealing with it and I need some assistance. That's what we're talking about, assistance, you know, and so. But now it is like, when a person needs to get their. I have people that I respect. I'm like, man, are you on any meds? You take your meds. If you need to go get some meds, man, I don't judge you, fam.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah. So I guess in the time that you've been down and you've seen all the changes, how has your own views on mental health staff and mental health patients that you see around you, how has that shifted?

[Mr. Jackson]

So when I first got locked up or incarcerated, you said it earlier, the officers in the county jail used to ring the bell. They would do so there's a, in the unit, when the speakers come on, it makes a bing noise and they would announce, pill line, pill line. Get your ding. Biscuits, get your biscuits. And it would be like people would laugh. Right. But I mean, unbeknownst to those that are laughing and the officer, like, you might have put that person who wants to get their medicine in a bad position because now that you're doing that, they might not want to go get their medicine.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mr. Jackson]

And so as I've grown, I've matured and I have people in my family that deal with mental health. And to be honest with you, myself, I've had situations where, and I woke up and I've never needed like medication for mental health past, like behavioral issues. When I was a kid, they had me on Ritalin and stuff like that. But I've woke up in here before and I'm like, oh, I'm not, I'm not okay. Yeah, I'm tired, I'm frustrated, I'm angry. It's been 15 years later or 10 years later. I'm still waking up doing the same stuff and I'm just not coherent. Yeah, I think it's shifted in a positive manner now because now mental health isn't looked at with a disdain or a black eye.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mr. Jackson]

I still think people are finding comfortability with it, but you know, hey man, go talk to somebody. You know, they always say man up, but I think a good thing for people to know around the world, you know, is to don't man up, open up. You know, if you don't open up, you're in danger. Starting to learn that.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Do you think your peers are more open to speaking to mental health staff?

[Mr. Jackson]

They are. I mean, we have different mental health services not only on the inside, but now they have, they're advocating for people to do mental health on out from inside. But recently I just got through doing like a 14 week therapy session and it helped me out a lot. Just calling and unpacking. Yeah, it's called unpack. You know, unpack that. If you're a staff, a prisoner or, or you're somebody that's just, you know, driving down the road and you're carrying a lot because you pay all the bills in the house. If you don't have help with that and you're carrying a lot of pressure and stress. Like if you're not unpacking nothing, you said it earlier, you have to find a balance where you're actually going to find your passion or find a way to decompress. Yeah, you Explode.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah. I've definitely seen that a lot of people who are incarcerated grew up in environments where, you know, they were expected to present a certain way, be really tough. And that included not talking about emotions, not showing emotions. And so they. They do have a lot to unpack because they have been storing that and storing that and storing that. And it builds up.

[Mr. Jackson]

It does. I mean, everyone in prison is not a gang member, but we know we can start with that culture. In the gang culture. You know, I grew up in an area where that's what was prevalent. A lot of people in my family, cousins, people I looked up to. You are in. In a culture where everybody bases their manhood or their ideology about themselves based on the image, you have to learn to choose your reactions.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mr. Jackson]

Which isn't natural. Right. We talk about emotion. Emotion is threaded in a lot of living things. I mean, we could talk about my dog at home that I just bought my wife, like a dog shows emotion, like it feels. So we act like we don't feel, and that's, like, dangerous. And so growing up in the gang culture, you suppress a lot of different stuff because you don't want to look weak. Anything other than I got the right face. I got a stone face about the most brutal things happening. I'm just going to act like, oh, you know, it happens, and people do it here. Stuff happens, man. You know, it's what. We're in prison, man. You know, that's just how it goes when really. I mean, yeah, stuff happens, but that's not just how it goes.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mr. Jackson]

Watching somebody get their head, you know, split open, and then we just carrying on about our day, you've been a part of that, or it's something you've experienced over and over and over and over again. Now you're going about your day, but that's somebody's son.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mr. Jackson]

Somebody's father. That's somebody. And then you being a staff member, having to come and respond or deal with that person who got their head cracked after they recover from that.

[Shantelle Acosta]

And also, you know, it can be really frightening when, you know, you've gone through all this, witnessing disturbing things, you know, and you don't feel like you're traumatized. You don't feel like it's affecting you. And then all of a sudden, one thing does, right? And it's not that maybe that was any different than anything else you've experienced, but that's this straw that broke the camel's back. Right. And so now all of a sudden, you have this flood of reaction of emotion and all these things going on where you're like, whoa, I thought I was fine. What is this? And so, you know, people experiencing for the first time, like a strong reaction to something can be really scary because they don't know what to do with it.

[Mr. Jackson]

I actually have some questions too. People in. In population that wrote me down some questions. I told them that, you know, we might get a chance to have a conversation with you on the podcast. And they. A guy actually wrote me some things down. And he said this from a brother named Mr. Jackson in the unit. Older man, A lot of people respect him in the unit and things like that. But also after just having a conversation with him after a class, he was like, well, I'd like to write some stuff down that, that maybe she can answer. Okay, that might help people also around the world. But it's. It took a lot for him to do do this. He was like, I'd never done this before, but I'd like to try it out. So.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Well, I appreciate it, Mr. Jackson.

[Mr. Jackson]

He said, I keep my feelings to myself. I hold my pain to myself because I do not trust, so I'll only rely on God. I even have a lack of trust in professionals. I want to forgive myself, but I can't and I do not know why. I'm responsible for everything I do, right or wrong. That's just how I see it. What kind of advice would you have for him or anybody else that holds that view? I mean, you know, free people can have that view too.

[Shantelle Acosta]

Yeah. Not feeling like you can trust anybody, including professionals. I mean, that sounds very lonely. First of all, it's got to be very lonely to keep so much to yourself because you feel like you have no one that you can safely share that with. I. I hope you eventually do find someone you feel safe enough to talk about that with. And thank you for even opening up to share this with us. Everyone is always harder on themselves than they are on other people. Maybe you hold yourself to higher standard, you have more expectations of yourself. There's shame wrapped in versus when you're trying to forgive someone else. The shame aspect isn't there as much as maybe anger or hurt. I think it's shame that's the hardest to get around. When it comes to self forgiveness, there's often a sense of there's not enough atonement you can do. Self forgiveness doesn't have to be about atoning for anything. It's an acceptance, I think, and acceptance is really difficult. We have to accept mistakes we made. We have to Accept the outcomes of those mistakes and then accept that we can't change that, but that you can still choose to make better decisions, make a new life for yourself, follow a new path. But many people just don't feel worthy of a new path.

[Carey McGill]

What would it be like to seek help?

[Ant]

Help, help, help, help, help, help. My safety zone, my defense mechanism is to dissociate and check out. Like that's what I do when things are weird or when they're funny or when I don't feel safe or I'm not really sure if I'm being accepted or invited into things. And you know, that's how I do. My time too is like, even with my people on the streets, I. I don't call as much as I wish I did. I don't really talk about things that I'm going through. I just kind of check out, head to the ground, focus, try to do my time and you know, and get through it like that.

[Bro PD]

But I think that's a lot of people too, man.

[Ant]

Man. I mean, it worked for me for 30 something or almost 30 years. It worked for me. I caught this case when I was 25. I'm 33 now, so that doesn't work for long term though. I can't. Like the eight years of trying to do that has now told me that I'm going to lose everything that has made me who I am if I don't invest myself back in to those things. Not calling people, not communicating, just hoping that things are going to be there when I get out is not realistic for me. It's intangible how this place will poison you and you'll wake up one day and not know how you got to a place where you don't even care what happens that day. You don't even care if you get out of bed.

[Bro PD]

If we're locked down the whole day,

[Ant]

bro, if we're locked down all day, if people answer the phone because you stop trying to call anyway, like this will literally poison your outlook on life and make you forget what, what life feels like to the point where you just don't give a. You're numbed out to everything. Yeah, I'm not able to be like the friend that I want to be to you guys and the son and the brother and the family member I want to be to my relatives. When I let that, when I let myself lay down and just not care, you know? And like, you guys are helping me. You guys are helping me be me again, you know, it kind of like fortifies me Being with you guys and it allows me to dig into some of the things that I have unresolved in my own past, in my own life. Because I know that I've got support through that.

[Richie Rich]

Right.

[Ant]

I know I got people that are going to care about me and support me no matter what. I wish we could do this every day.

[Bro PD]

I was 19 years old when I got arrested and leading up to my prison sentence I was trying to belong to something and I felt like doing what I was doing, walking around with guns and getting high and doing like non productive things was to help me belong with a certain group that I wanted to belong to. Now being in prison I found there's a lot of people with similar backgrounds to me. Like they come from Pacific islands or they're like, I can relate to you because you grew up in a similar way I did. So now I found a group that I belong with. And then as I get closer to going home, it's like what group do I belong to when I go home? And because I've being locked up as a teenager and coming out as a grown ass man, it's like there's a lot of social skills I haven't picked up. Being in neurodiversity group with like women and people that aren't prisoners is kind of helping me acclimate to being out

[Ant]

I can to normal life, not this dysfunctional like prison.

[Bro PD]

All I know in my adult life is prison.

[Nation]

Yeah.

[Bro PD]

And so going home it's like I can't do prison things when I go home.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Bro PD]

Like, well certain stuff. Like yeah, I can make a little spread with some top ramen or something. But our whole days are scheduled. Like we wake up at 7, we go to lunch at 11, count time at 3, 30, 4 o', clock, then we got it locked down by 9 o'.

[Ant]

Clock.

[Bro PD]

Every day is similar, but out there that's it's not as rigid as that. At least here, like I know I can, I can get through meals day, I can, I have a place to sleep at night. But when you get out, like people that I've known that get out after doing so much time, it's like what, what do I do? I don't know, like do I go outside? Do I just stay at home? It's hard to find a routine and if you've been doing a long time, it's like your whole community is different. It's crazy because I was just talking to my mom last night and she's telling me how my nieces and nephews like they're graduating, and I'm like, bro, I remember when you guys were born, like, I used to change your diapers. You guys were seven when I. When I went to prison. And it's like, now you're. You're going to college. They don't even remember, like, who I am. Being in prison for a while, it's like you see people one by one, like, okay, I don't talk to this person no more. Okay, I don't talk to this person anymore. Or this person died, this person moved away, and I can't get a hold of them anymore. My mom is going back to Palau again next month. And it always affects me every time, because when I was younger, she left my dad because my dad wasn't the best partner. You know, he was an abusive alcoholic. And so my mom left. But I was always angry at her for leaving. Like, why'd you leave me? And. But I don't, like, now that I know more about the relationship, like, she's told me being in groups like this helps me, like, actually talk to my mom about, like, stuff that I've never talked about. And so she's told me, like, how like. Like I couldn't stay. It wasn't good for me. And I'm like, okay, I understand that now, but as a kid, you don't understand that. I just want my mom to be here. And so now she's leaving again. It's like, it brings up all these residual feelings. Like, I thought I was over this, but I'm not.

[Nation]

It keeps coming back.

[Bro PD]

Like, it's not as bad as it was, but it's still, like, a trauma that I haven't gotten over. And that's why I look forward to these neuros. Like, this Saturday. I was gonna bring that up. That's something I was gonna. I was probably gonna cry again and, you know, vent to you guys about how I felt and that. And I look forward to that because, like. Like, this is something personal to me that I'm not. It's not. You don't just bring up stuff like that in regular conversation. Like, hey, by the way, you know I'm traumatized, right? You don't do that. But this is a space where we can. And. And being able to. To be a part of this space and helping create the space for others is important. And it's something that, like, you guys should continue to do. And all of us that are part of this group, like, and those that have left, like, they want to continue to do because they felt this Energy and they felt the healing. People like Anthony and bro PD that left and, and all of us in this space, you know, Roy, Kelso, Abel, Nate, me, you. Richie Rich is not here. You know, all of us, like, we can, we know what it feels like to be in a healing space and we can create that for others and we can help others feel like they belong somewhere.

[Ant]

None of us came knowing how to do this when we first got in this space. And it's been difficult, bro.

[Nation]

I ain't gonna lie.

[Ant]

It's been hard. Being people with other people is difficult. No matter what you're trying to do, even when you don't really like or you. You don't really spend that much time with people. And we've all dedicated to maintaining this space and maintaining the relationships we have with each other. And the fact that we all have made that of kind commitment doesn't make anything any easier. We still have conflicts. We still have people that get into disagreements with each other. We still have people that do things that rub people the wrong way. I mean, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Everybody in this group has pissed me off at least once sometime in group, right? And like being able to cope with that myself, having to cope with that myself and still like, how do we do with that in a way that we can still be positive in our relationship with each other? Conflict management, like, we've had to learn how to do that with each other

[Nation]

by fire, trial by fire, man.

[Ant]

We've had cats that were seriously hurt by each other that we've had to sit down as groups and like mediate and talk about, okay, we've all dedicated towards the same thing. We all want to be better and we all want to grow together. How do we use that trust that we have in this purpose to now everybody's committed to, to figuring out how we do this in a healthy way then. It's been hard, bro. It's been hard. It's hard every, every time something comes up. But at least we have that confidence that I know you are down to do it. You're committed to doing it. You're committed to do it. I know that. I am. So like, no matter how much I don't like doing it in the moment, I know that we're going to figure it out together. So you, you've done a lot of growth in this space, bro. You've done a lot of personal growth in, in prison in general. I mean, you was young when you came in and you still young now, but, like, people think that you're a lot older than you are because of how you carry yourself and being your cellie and been with you through a lot of this whole journey. We was together in the west complex. We came over here together. Was something you're dealing with personally, internally that you bring to space and, like, are trusting us to share with us.

[Richie Rich]

My thing for so long has been, as I said earlier, like, optimism. I always try to look at everything in a. In a positive light, in a positive way. And there was times in group where I felt like that might not be what's needed because someone was just crying or someone was just talking about being broken and things that I relate to. Not to say that I haven't experienced these things and felt these things. And I think that growing through the group, I've come to realize that we're all coming there for each other. So it's okay to be not okay. It's also okay to be okay. You don't have. I don't have to, like, come with some painful thing that happened this week. I can come in this group and talk about the rainbow that I saw outside that I haven't stopped talking about for, well, almost two years now. But that whole week when everyone's like, what's up with this dude in rainbows? My dude? I saw a quarter of a rainbow outside of the prison walls from. In the prison walls. And it was the most amazing thing to me. And for those two years since, I've been talking about that. So I think just being authentically me in every space, because I think even being open, there's still places, especially in prison, where you have a guard up, there's a wall right about the wall that you have up. And I think we lie to ourselves that that is, like, protecting us. That's like our safety thing. Like you said. I got locked up when I was 21 and 28 right now. And I've been on my own, like, my own. My own since I was 17 and my whole life before that. I've done a lot of things. I've had to support myself and do things that I was proud of and am no longer proud of. But being able to do those things, I always had the wall up. Nothing affects me. It doesn't. It doesn't hurt me. Well, really on the inside, I'm hella emotional. Like, I'm an extremely emotional person, and people will see that and let you know that. But I'm to the point now where I'm like, I'm a Human being. I'm allowed to emote. I'm okay with emoted. And I got that from being in this space, right. Like, it's okay to experience these emotions. And in fact, we are experience these emotions. I read some in a book one time that was like, as men, we are taught like eight crayons, quote unquote of emotions, when really you got the whole 60 folk pack. So if someone's acting a magenta emotion of you and all you got is purple and you're trying to mix it with the red, you don't know what's going on. And we. Right. We all have all these different emotions. And I don't know if it's 64 or 82. Right. Crayon pack and emotions. I'm not sure what the number is, but. But being in spaces where you can talk about those things and see the brothers that you've grown with and the new people that you've bonded with and outside people and just people that you kind of know but kind of don't know, be able to share those things, it opens. It opens you up to being able to be okay with that everywhere and speak that truth in it every time. So partly because I've always, always wanted to be like this, but mainly because I've been in this group, now every space that I'm in, I can just be authentically me and be okay with that. And that's really hard when you're talking about talking to a officer who's 22 years old that you have to ask for toilet paper and you already don't want to do that shit. And that was just a example, right? But like, when you're talking to these officers, whether they're older or younger, talking to administration, trying to get a program approved, talking to people who may or may not have a say so on how your life is going to be lived for the next however many years, right? Many times people have that wall up because we're in prison and I have to be like this to this person and the people that are in the day room with you. Being authentically myself means that I can be the same me in every situation. I can talk about that rainbow to the guy while I'm eating dinner, the guy while I'm working out on the way power or the. The superintendent when he comes in here, if I so wish. I think that's the main thing. If we, if we're getting into it, the, the shedding of the mask, we can just be the. The we that we are when we're sitting in that cell, you know, looking at the ceiling, because I'm on the top bunk. So the ceiling is very close at night. So when I'm looking at that ceiling, I can be the same me that's having the same thoughts when I'm dealing with the people I'm dealing with. So it's just been a beautiful experience being able to. To grow with people and watch other people grow. And. And that's the main touchstone for me is that it's.

[Bro PD]

It's.

[Richie Rich]

It's good to be you. And people see that too, right? We watch it all the time when we see people dealing with. And I use the cos because you have the. The black and white, they like. Like to say on both sides of the fence. But you have both sides of the fence. You have the inmate and the officer, and that's what it is. But it's not always that. It is that at a surface level, but it's the human beings that are talking to each other. So even though this thing is here that we're experiencing right now, if you're equipped with the tools, then you know how to talk with a person on a personal level. And they see that and they feel that.

[Josh]

Right.

[Richie Rich]

And so a lot of people are like, how are you able to talk to. When they're talking to me and Grace, how are you able to talk to these guys? It's like, well, I just talk to them like a person. Which is funny when I say that, because as those words come out of my mouth, I've heard officers say that shit and be like, what is this dude talking about? Because they like to be like, yeah,

[Nation]

just talk to people like people.

[Richie Rich]

But, hey, they're being for real. Some of them talk to people like people. That's not to take away from. There's assholes. There's also asshole inmates. Yeah, right, Right. We're not all trying to better ourselves, but the guys in this group certainly are trying to better themselves. And the people that come to these spaces and spaces that are similar to this are trying to work on getting that little thing that they lost and stepping outside of the box that we exist in and be able to realize life is still going on while we're here looking at each other every day. Our cousins, our little sisters are growing up, and that's a real thing. So that's what this group does. Because you're talking about real life, ultimately, you're getting into you. And the core you is not tied to this place. Right. We're not prisoners. We're people who are incarcerated currently. But that's not our identity. And we see that happen a lot where that is people's identities. We're breaking that. We're breaking that mold where that's not the norm. People see the classroom like, what is that? It's human beings up in here. Like you said, humanization. That's one of the drums I've been banking since I started doing community work. We're humanizing each other and we're humanizing ourselves. And by doing that, we're humanizing everybody else. By humanizing the officer, he's humanizing us. It's right. It's happening at the same time.

[Carey McGill]

Breathe in, Breathe out. Breathe out. We need people. We need people to get through the hard times, to recognize we are not alone. Everyone goes through pain. That doesn't mean your pain is invalid.

[Ant]

May use reminding me why I love this space so much. I mean, because I. I'm able to see myself in a different light through hearing other people talk. And it allows me to think about myself from kind of an objective perspective because I'm coming to the. I guess the maturity to be able to admit that I judge myself so much, so much.

[Craig Jackson]

And I.

[Ant]

It. It's. It happens so subconsciously and so automatically that I don't even realize it. A lot of times, man, I'm thinking a lot about the relationships I used to have and a lot of people that aren't in my lives, or at least not in the same capacity, right? Whether it's friends or family, people that I feel like I'm battling this resentment against because they didn't show up for me in the way that I expected them to. When I'm dealing with this case and dealing with my situation that I'm dealing with family members not showing up the way I expected them to, people not supporting me and looking out the same way. And you know, that I expect them to. And I blame myself for all of that, bro. Like, I feel like maybe if I was a better person, maybe if I was a better friend, maybe if I wasn't, maybe if there wasn't this thing wrong with me that I don't even know what the it is, then people will be willing to show up for me in the way that I. I needed them to show up for me. And it's. It's me up. Because now it goes back to like, okay, there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? Why am I wrong in the way that these people don't give a.

[Nation]

About me in the way that I,

[Ant]

that I want them to give a about me. And then it's like, well, why don't I give a about myself in the way that I, you know, in the way that I, that I want to feel cared about

[Bro PD]

and.

[Ant]

Oh no, 33 years old right now and just now having a bunch of these revelations and realizations and I feel like I'm like 18 years late. Like, I feel like this is stuff that I would have been able to figure out as a young teenager that I'd be, you know, they tell you 18 year grown, 21, 25, you're supposed to be getting situated. 30 years old, you're supposed to be good, financially stable, having all the, the things. I don't know anybody who's like that. Let me just keep it real. But like, I still hold myself to that comparison in my head. And so being 33 and being, you know, older than a lot of the people that I try to help out and hang around and like pave the way for, I feel like I'm late to the party. I feel like I up and wasted a whole bunch of my life and now I'm here and it's really hard for me sometimes to see value in myself and then the things that I bring to the table. But when I'm able to be in space with people and like, see people break open and like make strives and really grow, it makes me feel better. It makes me feel like I'm not just wasting my life being undecided and up and feeling like a failure and feeling broken and dysfunctional. You know, like, being able to actually build relationships with people that help other people succeed makes me feel like I'm succeeding too. And, you know, I'm hoping that being able to find some of that solace in myself will maybe help me not have so much resentment towards people that I feel like have failed me because I feel like I'm a failure. You know, I never saw myself in this type of situation. And I still don't even really think about being here and having to be here until 2041. Being able to build relationships with other people, man, is the only thing that's keeping me going if I'm being real about it. There's people that were like this to my life prior to being here that I don't even talk to anymore. And it's like, damn, where did I go wrong? That that's. This is the situation where we're at. There's people that were blood family to me or by marriage family to me. Like, people that were my people that I haven't talked to in years. And it's like, well, what. What kind of person. What kind of person does that to people they love and care about? And I'm talking about me doing that to other people.

[Richie Rich]

Right?

[Ant]

I'm the one who put myself here. I'm the one who made choices that ended up in me being here. But I'm still feeling a certain type of way about people that are showing up for. For me, you know, that just makes me feel like, you know, but I'm, like, being able to show up for you guys is why I keep coming even when I don't feel like coming, man, I show up because I'm like, man, one of these brothers might bless me with something, or maybe I'll be the thing that will make them feel safe and comfortable enough to share some real. And it's just, man, I love you guys. I appreciate you, man. I grow through you guys every single day, even when I feel like I ain't.

[Nate]

One of my favorite quotes, bro. And I think about this one constantly. It's actually a rule in a book. And.

[Mr. Jackson]

Yeah, man.

[Nate]

Yeah. Compare. Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who somebody else is today. And I think that that stays with me all the time because we do that for each other. I'm not comparing myself to who you are. You are. You are. But I'm comparing myself to who I was yesterday. And when we share and do these things like this, we're just helping ourselves grow from yesterday to today and to tomorrow. And constantly doing that, man, that's one of my favorite. It just sticks in my head because I want to constantly do better for myself and better enough I can help my friends do better. We can help each other grow and get better.

[Josh]

That's.

[Nate]

That's. That's what this does right here. Miss, I gotta say say thank you to everybody in this group, man.

[Mr. Jackson]

It's.

[Nate]

You all changed my life. And what a blessing. Absolute blessing.

[Ant]

You heard it here, man. Get you some neural. Everybody around the state, Everybody on the streets. Get you some nerve.

[Bro PD]

Hey, get in the circle and talk about your feelings.

[Ant]

Get you back to life for real.

[Bro PD]

Enjoy the circle. We're all part of the same.

[Ant]

Sir, it's been a pleasure. Appreciate y'.

[Bro PD]

All.

[Josh]

Thank you.

[Podcast Narrator]

Appreciate you.

[Nation]

I felt like these people saw me and, like, knew my. They knew my vibe without even knowing me longer than a couple days. So we're sitting down, having conversations about music and life and traveling and family, and these people are talking to me. Like, I've known them for years. Like, the way that they're just so open and. And. And real was inspiring to me, man. It made me feel so valued. It made me feel seen. It made me feel like, man, I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to feel that way with people, and I want people to feel that way when they connect with me. I want people to feel like, how I feel right now when I'm talking to them, you know? And I'm tired of seeing the look on my friends, my family members faces when I feel like they can feel my walls, man. They can feel my distance, my disassociation, my disconnection. And I don't know if they think it's because I don't like them or because I have this thing going on or because I don't trust them or I'm. Whatever.

[Ant]

And it's.

[Nation]

And it's something that I. I hate, but I can't control it yet. I'm not there yet. I'm not comfortable with being able to. That's just hard. It breaks my heart, man. It breaks my heart. This is like an indirect shout out, I guess, to all my people out there. That's.

[Richie Rich]

That.

[Nation]

That's felt that or seen that in me. Like, I love you guys. And I. I'm sorry. I'm working through it, though. I know I. I know it's a

[Bro PD]

thing,

[Nation]

and I'm trying to get there, man. I'm trying to be better for everybody. Trying to be better for myself.

[Carey McGill]

You're in the belly of a great ship going across a treacherous sea. The journey is rough, the tide is scary. You felt swallowed. The thing that swallowed. I loved it once I needed it. I could no longer tell the difference from light to dark. Now I want something different.

[Nate]

Sa.

[Podcast Narrator]

So I'll be the first to tell you guys. I've been slacking. We're in the middle of our second season, and I just realized I haven't done anything for the women. I apologize, though. And for that reason, I'm gonna make up for it today. Today I tell the story of one of the most famous female convicts to ever do time in Washington State Prison. Maude Myrtle Johnson, the queen of the fakers. I'm also going to give you some history about Washington state prisons for women and how they were shuffled all over the state until they eventually ended up where they're at now. So buckle up and get ready for a trip down memory lane. The Seatco prison in Bokota, Washington, also known as hell on Earth. And a contract prison. Vivil was a territorial prison and the first prison known to the area. It operated privately from 1874 to 1887. Washington wasn't granted statehood until 1889, but nevertheless, the prison was notorious for being a place you didn't want to end up. The warden was known to rent the incarcerated out as slaves and made a ton of money off of them during this time. SEO is also known for housing the territory's first women prisoner, Mary Phillips, who was arrested for manslaughter in Port Townsend. She was actually the only woman to ever be housed at SEO. I can't imagine what that would have been like, being the only woman in the area's most notorious prison to date, with nothing but the worst of the worst men and an administration that was known for renting its incarcerated out like farm equipment. It isn't said what happened to her, but I imagine she had it worse than the men. The state of Washington's first official prison was constructed and opened in 1887. Here in Walla Walla, Washington. The pen was not fit to accommodate women adequately, but of course, women were still made to stay here at the time. In 1890, rooms on the second floor of the new building were set up for the women, and by 1892, the population here at the pen housed five women. Seventeen years later, a new inmate showed up and a lot of people in the Pacific Northwest already knew her as the queen of the fakers. Maude Myrtle Johnson, a career criminal who made a fortune swindling turn of the century transportation companies. Part actress, extortionist, circus performer, and part contortionist. Her ability as a play actress almost exceeded belief. Her typical shtick was to purchase a ticket on the trolley, car, car or a train. And whenever the said trolley or train would come to an abrupt stop or start too quickly, she would fall on the floor and act like she was hurt. Sometimes she would carry a rubber bladder full of red blood like fluid in her mouth and bite into it as soon as she hit the floor. Other times she had a powder that when mixed with spit, would look like a bloody drool. This almost always worked, especially when she would carry a couple teeth in her mouth to spit on the floor. In dramatic effect. It said she could dislocate an ankle at will, grade her bones to fake a fracture, dilate a pupil and even raspber ribs together with a sound that you could hear from one end of the car to the other. Because of this, she gained the status of a criminal. Houdini. Apparently at the Height of her career, she was netting between $350 to $1,700 a job. With inflation, that would be 11,000 to 60,000 in today's money. People have tried to add up how much her schemes would have netted over her lifetime, and it's said to be about $200,000. That's 6.3 million in today's money. How, you ask, who has given her this money? People in charge at the railway and trolley car companies see, the transportation industry was still fairly young compared to today. And to keep from getting sued or getting a bad review in the local paper, they would pair to keep her mouse shut. You gotta give it to her, though. She was 100 dedicated to not getting a real job. But enough about mod for now. There's a whole lot more women with crazy stories that came through Washington state prisons during the mid-1900s. A daycare was run by women here

[Nation]

doing time in the pit.

[Podcast Narrator]

Their job was to take care of correctional officers and people from administration's children while they were at work. Some of these same women also were on a softball team called Satan's Angels. Kind of crazy, they let one of Satan's Angels babysit their kids. But what do I know? There were actually seven women's prisons opened in Western states, the seventh being the Washington Correction center for Women, or WCCW. It opened in 1971 and it's located in Gig Harbor, Washington, and is now the largest women's prison in the state. Apparently above the front door it says, united and purpose devoted to excellence. No matter how these words may entice people to think this prison is different from others, don't be fooled, because they still have guard towers, barbed wire fences, and uniform guards. And even though the prison resembles a college campus, if you get out of line or show up there with a crime against a child, one or more of these chicks will put hands on you. Trust me, I know a couple of them, and they're not playing. In July of 2018, the prison, with the capacity of 764 incarcerated, had an average daily population of 1,002, showing that the men's prisons as well as county jails aren't the only institutions in the state that are overcrowded. But let's back up though, because this isn't the only thing that's been wrong with women's prisons throughout the country. It's been said that during the 19th century development of gynecology, captive women were the primal candidates for experimental gynecological surgeries due to their invisibility and the voicelessness of their social position. During the mid-1800s, medical rape and induced abortions were practices being done on incarcerated women in the name of medicine. Now this was the 1800s. But how, as a society, did we ever believe this was okay? It actually physically sickens me to think of how these women were treated back in the day. Mostly because if you were doing time, you didn't have rights. As a people, we have come a long way in our society, but if you're paying attention, there's always someone or some group of humans that's being taken advantage of or exploited by another, usually richer group of people. Because no matter where you come from, what color you are, and what sex you identify with, the rich will always take advantage of and exploit the poor. And in the prison systems case, including incarcerated are the poor people. Always have been, always will be. Unless we come together and change the old ways of doing things through community and the legislator, then the rich will always prey on the poor.

[Craig Jackson]

That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bens is a producer and our editor, sound designer and graphic designer. Chris Gates and Nate Bowers are the audio engineers. Megan Sanchez is a producer and handles our social media content, content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. I'm Craig Jackson, one of the newest Voices of Justice Media coming at you from inside the prison walls in Walla Walla. The Washington State Penitentiary and Washington State DOC have made this project possible. For more information, check out our show list notes and you can write to us with feedback and questions about the podcast. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. Concretemama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.