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- [00:00]
Vic Chopra
This program contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.
- [00:19]
Dick Morgan
From the outside, the Washington State Penitentiary looks like a fortified castle, an ominous structure that contains over a century's worth of history within its walls. And some of that history is dark. When a system operates in the shadows, as prisons do, what goes on in the dark can be disturbing. The literal architecture of prisons isn't meant for healing. It's meant for punishment, stripping people of their humanity. Let me tell you what they say happened on the third floor of the hospital here in the mid-70s. They called it Dr. Hunter's Mental Health Program, but it actually sounds like a cover for experiments and torture that were being done on prisoners. And what's crazy is that people knew, people saw, yet they did nothing. They allowed the brutality to happen, and they either stayed silent or they justified it because it was happening to prisoners. There's not much literature in the history books about this, but there are a few eyewitness accounts of what happened A few years ago. Vic sat down with Dick Morgan and Kelly Messinger. Dick is a former correctional officer who had only worked at the penitentiary for about four months, but later went on to be the Secretary of Washington State. Doc Kelly is a former prisoner and author of Walls of Secrecy. In this excerpt, they both discuss their experience of the third floor and Dr. Hunter's program.
- [01:44]
Kelly Messinger
Although I was new, I was aware of the stories of Dr. Hunter's program that the third floor had this dark, secretive, malevolent aura around it in that there were stories of inmates committing suicide with ligature marks being found around their wrists and inmates being found hanging with hands behind their back and being ruled a suicide. There were suicides on the third floor, for sure. There were some deaths up there. And people at work night shift would tell stories jokingly in very, very dark humor that they could hear assaults happening on the third floor.
- [02:31]
Vic Chopra
Well, Dick, when I was at the penitentiary, we heard a lot of rumors about the good doctor was actually torturing people. Like he had assistants who were. His assistants were actually inmates that were deemed crazy or mentally ill, and he would have them do all manner of physical torture to other inmates. Right. We heard stories about inmates being put in diapers, tied to a bed, and cold sheets put over them with the air conditioning on. Typical things you'll read about at the camps In World War II, Dick reported.
- [03:01]
Dick Morgan
Having a very disturbing experience one night when he was tasked to go up to the third floor. He was ordered by the lieutenant to look for prisoners that were beaten or anything that looked out of place because they'd been hearing rumors and getting a lot of complaints.
- [03:16]
Kelly Messinger
Now, when I was a brand new officer, I went to roll call, where you get your assignment for the day. The lieutenant said, morgan, you're going to the third floor. Officers had previously not been allowed to go up there. So I get up and I patrol just like you would in a wing or anywhere else and kind of do a security check. And I'm looking for black eyes, bruises, anything out of the ordinary. And I see a lot of inmates who are in cells who turn their back on me soon as I show up. And it's obvious they're either afraid of me or they're afraid to talk to me. Then I come up on a cell where there's this older inmate who's bleeding from several scratch marks on his face. And I'd seen enough of mentally ill inmates to know that there's a lot of self injury that goes on in a prison. But this was new. I'd never seen anybody scratch up their face like that. I said, what happened to you? He said, I can't talk to you. They'll kill me. And I go, well, okay, this guy's crazy. So said, no, it's safe to. There's nobody else here. They won't talk to me. He says, no, can't talk to you. He turns his back to me and he goes into the corner. He's got a mattress that's laying flat on the floor. And I finish my patrol and I go back to my chair and drink some more coffee and I'm, well, what do I do with this? Is this serious? I don't know. And then I hear a commotion back towards where this cell is. Well, this man with scratches on his face, his name was Guardy Sailors. I didn't know it, but he held the record for isolation time at the penitentiary. I was told it was 11 years straight of being in isolation. I went to go take a look at what was going on with Garthy sailors, and there's an inmate in the vestibule between the wooden door outside the cell and the steel bars. This inmate is reaching through the bars and raking his fingers down Garthy's face, creating more bloody scratch marks on his face. I said, hey, get out of here. The guy leaves and threatens Garthy. I think he said, you're dead, and walked away. He obeyed. He did what I told him to do. I looked at Garthy, I said, what's this about? I said, I can't tell you. I told you, they're going to kill me. So I went back to the station, I talked to the clinician, said, what's going on with Guardy sailors? And well, Guardy is supposed to roll up his mattress and hand it out to one of the attendants because we don't let him sleep during the day. I said, yeah, but what's with the physical attack? And said, well, he's got to comply.
- [06:16]
Dick Morgan
He goes on to say that when he reported what was going on up there, he got cussed out and eventually reassigned to 8 Wing, which was purgatory as far as jobs went. This is a tough story, but it's not just history. Dr. Hunter may be in the past, but there's people out there in the world that are doing the same kind of damage right now, just under different names and job titles. And unless we talk about it and speak truth to power when abuses happen, then we are doomed to repeat the past. Isn't being taken away from our homes and families enough? Isn't being locked in a cage or cell for 1525, even 35 years enough? Or do you really think that our captors should be able to experiment on us? Experimentation has stopped at wsp and it doesn't happen in the US as much as it used to, but I guarantee it happens in other countries still to this day. And unless we bring awareness to this kind of madness, people in power will keep abusing it.
- [07:19]
Vic Chopra
This is Concrete Mama the podcast coming to you from the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla, Washington. I'm Vic Chopra, your guide as we journey together down the rabbit hole into the world of the incarcerated and unincarcerated. You just heard an eyewitness account of a truly shocking chapter in the history of the Washington State Penitentiary. I wouldn't have believed it myself if I didn't hear it from Dick and Kelly. And make sure to keep listening throughout the season for more wild WSP history from Red on this episode, we explore the process of being released from prison and how acclimating back into the free world can present its own set of challenges. I was released on January 25, 2018 from Reynolds Work Release in Seattle, Washington. I spent the last five months of my incarceration there after I was transferred from the penitentiary in Walla Walla. Work release is similar to a halfway house where you can get a real job and have more freedoms than a regular prison. There was definitely an adjustment period as I tried to figure out how this new version of me fit back into this new new version of the free world. I'm so lucky that not only was I driven and determined to succeed, backed by five years of sobriety at that point, but I also had an incredible support system of family and friends to help me in my transition back to society. This isn't the case for everyone. Freedom comes with its own set of rules and stipulations. Some of us have community custody, or probation, as it's commonly called. You might hear those of us that have done time refer to this as being on paper. I had a year on paper where I had to check in every month with my community custody officer. My experience was pretty easy. But some folks on paper have a very strict set of rules they have to follow until their probation ends. There can be limits on who you can communicate with and where you can go. Not only that, but then you have to find housing and employment in a system that is stacked against you. There is still a huge acceptable bias when it comes to discriminating against those with a criminal record. Right now, Anthony is on his own freedom journey. He was released on clemency many months ago and is on paper for three years. You know, the whole process of getting released is such a rollercoaster of emotions. You have these amazing, joyful moments with family and loved ones, like holidays and other celebrations. But even before you walk out those doors, there's this buildup of anticipation. You're so excited but also so nervous about what it's like out there now. You constantly play through scenarios in your head about how your release will go. Sometimes it all feels like a dream, like some hallucination that you wake up from and realize that it's not real. Right now, we're going to take you back to a conversation between Anthony and demar. When Anthony received his clemency paperwork and the emotions he felt as he processed the reality that his release was finally just a few weeks away.
- [10:07]
Anthony
Foreign.
- [10:12]
Demar
What'S going on, man?
- [10:13]
Anthony
Things is going good, man. Just got some phenomenal news today. I got the conditional commutation. If I look at this paper and read it correctly, it says of Anthony.
- [10:21]
Demar
Robert Covert, the paperwork you got today, you know, we've been talking about the journey and, man, this, this, this, this Star Trek thing, man, that's been going on with you and your release, getting ready to go home.
- [10:33]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, man.
- [10:34]
Demar
Tell us what that paperwork is, man.
- [10:37]
Anthony
This is five pages telling me that my life is back.
- [10:40]
Demar
Wow.
- [10:41]
Anthony
They can tell me my life is back in five pages. It was surreal kind of getting this because, you know, it's not real until it's real. Actually seeing these papers in My hands and kind of reading through them, they go through and they acknowledge a lot of the injustices that I face through the court system, my accomplishments, the fact that I've taken full responsibility for my actions. You know, they talk about the catalyst for my change in here, losing my little brother in 2012 to cancer. They talk about my academic studies. It's a. It's a very thorough letter of like, just my life over the last 15 plus years and some of my life before that. You know, they talk about my gang involvement in here and some of my first convictions as a juvenile.
- [11:20]
Demar
Sounds kind of like some mitigation papers, too. Yeah, kind of like in a nutshell, what encompasses you. And I can only imagine that the people that are going to be receiving you for community custody purposes will be having this.
- [11:31]
Anthony
No, absolutely.
- [11:33]
Demar
And not to, you know, kind of throw you off, but I want to kind of back up a little bit because this is kind of awkward, but special because yesterday when we was getting up, you know, we was getting up, getting ready for the day.
- [11:44]
Anthony
Yeah.
- [11:44]
Demar
Brushing your teeth. I was getting out the way so you can do your thing and prepare for your day. And you said something. Yeah, man, we stepped out of the cell, man. What'd you say?
- [11:54]
Anthony
Man, I said, I feel like today's the day. You know, that's April 24th. That was yesterday. And, you know, I said, I feel like today's the day I'm going to hear something. And it was like an intuition thing, you know, how you just know something' about to happen, something major is about to happen.
- [12:06]
Demar
You just know.
- [12:07]
Anthony
Yeah. And it is crazy because I said that. And then I seen my counselor on the breezeway when she came up, gave me this paperwork. She says, I remember when you told me when you seen me that you think today was gonna be the day. Yesterday. And so I was like, yeah. So there I was like, I came like 3:00 in the afternoon, no word yet. And so my anxious self, I sent a message to my attorney, like, hey, by chance, have you heard anything? Nothing back. Wasn't until about 6:30 at night that I checked my messages and it says, got it from my attorney. And she breaks down, hey, you need to call me tomorrow at 12:30. We need to talk and go over your release plan stipulations and all these things. And I was like, man, you know, and I couldn't help but think about my faith in that moment. Right? He tells us not to be anxious for nothing. God says, don't be anxious for anything. Right. And so I Kind of like around 3:00, I was kind of like, you know what? It's going to happen when it happens, you know? So I kind of just let it go. Got it out my mind. And then when I got that message, I was, oh, man, it's on. Yeah.
- [13:08]
Demar
Almost ran me over coming through the door.
- [13:10]
Anthony
I was on the phone. Yeah. I was like, bro, bro, we got it. I was stoked, you know what I'm saying? It was that same feeling of like, I'm there, I'm right there.
- [13:21]
Vic Chopra
One more.
- [13:21]
Anthony
This was the last I that needed to be dotted.
- [13:24]
Demar
It's like each situation and each process kind of has its own relief, right? My vantage point, you know, being with you, seeing you work, coordinating, trying to get this clemency process started, going through the steps you needed to take with your attorney, getting the date.
- [13:41]
Anthony
Yeah, that's a relief, man.
- [13:43]
Demar
Then actually going to the hearing, after the hearing, waiting on the results, they say, okay, unanimously, we're going to let you go home. That's a relief. Now you're waiting for the governor to sign off. Another relief man. Sign off. And now you got this paperwork sitting in front of you, man, and you've actually signed it. And you know what's crazy, like, for people that are incarcerated, Like, I don't. And especially if you got a lengthy sentence, it's kind of surreal when you see, like, someone signing papers to go home, right? You know, how does it feel, man, to sign release papers? Like, today you signed those papers. What's going through your mind, man?
- [14:20]
Anthony
It's funny because I thought I was supposed to sign all types of stuff, right? So I'm like, all right, I got my pen in my hand already. I was up here like, boom, man. I'm ready to sign whatever I need to sign. They're like, actually, you just have to say that you agree. I was like, oh, you're making this easy on me. So I ain't gotta waste no ink. I ain't got to hurt no paper. I ain't got to do none of that. I just got to say I'm good. Well, I'm good. I don't even got to look at this. I'm good. Verbally binding contract, you know? And so, yeah, we gotta. I gotta talk with my attorneys. They were ecstatic. Now that that's done, they can send it back to the governor, letting the governor know, hey, he agrees to your conditions. And then once that process happens, they'll send it back to here. Down here, it says, I will be released within no more than 45 days. Right. That gives time for the 35 day notifier. So I have to wait for that process. As of today, to my understanding, I have 35 days left of what would have been a 36 year sentence. Right. So after 15 plus years, I get to go home in 35 days. I'm looking at these conditions and it's funny because I was like, man, I hope, I hope this conditions ain't crazy. All these conditions are things that I do anyway.
- [15:26]
Demar
So now it's really just a continuation.
- [15:28]
Anthony
That's it. The marathon continues, right?
- [15:31]
Garthy Sailors
Yeah.
- [15:31]
Anthony
You know what I'm saying? That's what Nipsey would say. The marathon continues. You man, recipes. This has been like a marathon. You know when you was explaining the reprieves, it's like reaching that those final mile markers and you're like, I'm almost done with this thing. Keep reaching a new one that says you're almost done. Forget the number of how many's left. It just the idea that you're almost done has been an amazing opportunity, man. And I'm grateful. I don't take any of this light heartedly.
- [15:57]
Demar
In our own ways, we want to see vicariously through other people. Like I try to do my best to allow people to see what I see. It's like excitement. It's like getting on a ride at the park. You know, your stomach lifts up in your chest and going down. And we're constantly talking about getting ready to go home, your family. And every time you check your messages on your secures tablet, you got a hundred people like, what's up? Did you hear anything? When we come to work, did you hear anything? And it's like, so the other night we didn't sleep, man. You want to talk about that a little bit?
- [16:27]
Anthony
I think it was anxiety. I think it was a little bit of a panic because it was like, man, like, am I doing enough still? Right? Because even though this thing's real, we're so used to everything being good and then bam, someone yank it from you. It's been that anxiety of, well, what's the setback? What's the setback going to be? You know what I'm saying? What's going to get pulled out from under me? There's been so many good things back to back to back to back. It's like, why can't it just be that it's just a road of good things? But because of our experience, we always are anticipating a glitch.
- [17:00]
Demar
Yeah, something's gonna go wrong. We're anticipating A failure, a letdown.
- [17:06]
Anthony
Yeah.
- [17:07]
Demar
We've all let you know, we've been let down and let other people down that, you know, the human experience is like that.
- [17:12]
Anthony
Absolutely.
- [17:13]
Demar
About 2:59, 3:00, you got down and you was just standing at the door for a long time.
- [17:19]
Anthony
That was, bro.
- [17:20]
Demar
Just looking out in the day room. Pitch black out there. Ain't nothing moving. And in my head I'm like, he's just trying to figure things out, you know, he's trying to make sense of it.
- [17:29]
Anthony
I was, bro, I was standing at that door, I was just thinking, like, it's super quiet out here right now. There's nothing moving. How much longer is it gonna be like this for? I'm behind the door. I can't get out there. I can see things moving around, little bit of wind blowing. You know, I seen the lights, shadows playing off each other. I was seeing how surreal this experience has been. I literally put myself here. Like, I was here for the first time, looking out that door. Cause I remember when I was in the county and I was looking out the door for the first time, being locked up, not knowing what was to come, but knowing that I had a road to travel. I looked out there around the same time, bro. It was the middle of the night, and I got up and I said, how did I get here? And so I'm sitting out there the other night and I'm looking. I said, how did I get here? You know, how did this become my reality for 15 years? And how come this is something that I had to fight so hard to get out of? It was surreal because I got to thinking about everybody else that wants that same thing. Everyone else that probably sits at this door just like I am right now, thinking, how did I get here? You know, we sleep through the night, so we really don't see what's going on. Or get up, look around. You might get up for a second, look around, go back to bed. But there's times I know I haven't done it multiple times throughout my time where I just got up and looked down and just be like, how am I here? Why am I here? You know, I know why I'm here. You know what I'm saying? But why am I here? It's that feeling that I wanted to have, bro. So when I go out into the world, I can remember that moment. Staring out in that dating room behind that locked door, watching nothing. No life, no nothing. Complete stillness.
- [19:07]
Demar
I see people release. Because you hear this thing when you call home. You talk to People that got out and you're still connected. Yeah, man. You gonna forget about that or you. And in my head, anybody that's ever told me that I've always been like, I'm gonna reverse that, like, when I get my chance. Because it's the things that we reflect on that keep us out of trouble. It's reflecting that keeps us wise. It's reflecting that gives us a different formula. It's like, I need to reflect on when I was stuck up in there, and I'm calling home, and your mom's like, you know, she wants you home, and she's being emotional. Or me calling home and my son is asking me, when am I going to be home? You know, maybe by the time I'm 20, dad. Or maybe when I'm 18. I don't want to forget that stuff, bro.
- [19:50]
Anthony
When eyes are on you, you have to watch your steps, because there are people that are waiting for that aha moment, you know, There are people who are waiting for you to trip up and fall on your face. And I'm not too worried about that. I'm afraid of failing, if I'm going to be honest, because I know I have the power and the tools to succeed. It's not the failure, as in coming back to prison. It's the failure of not living up to the expectations that I've set for myself. I fear not that I'll revert back to crime or not, that I'll revert back to my old ways, that I'll just be another God on this earth. I don't want to be a person that just sat here and did nothing. I want to be a person that if I were to leave this Earth in 40, 50 years, that someone could say, hey, that person helped me in some way. That person lifted my spirits in some way. And not for the glory of it all, but for the satisfaction of knowing that somebody else chose better because I was able to show them how. I think one of the biggest things, man, that I would want to leave behind to you, the person listening in your cell, out in the day room, on the yard, in the gym, wherever they allow you to have your tablet at. If you tuning in to concrete mama, man, and you're trying to figure out, you know what I'm saying, how are you going to do this time? I just want you to think of one thing, man. Who is it that you want to be and where is it that you want to go? Because who you are is going to define where you end up. I want it to be Free man. I made it home.
- [21:24]
Vic Chopra
And we hope that whoever is listening to this, whether you're in your cell or the day room or out in the freeway world in your car or your bedroom, that Anthony's words resonate with you. Who is it that you want to be and where do you want to go? One thing that prison taught me is that it doesn't matter where you're at or what's going on. You always have the power to make a different choice in your life. No matter how bad things may seem, each new moment brings with it the opportunity to redefine yourself or your situation. If you want to be someone different, to be a better person, then you can start taking action in that moment to become that person. We walk into prison naked in a jumpsuit. We start from nothing. Sometimes having everything stripped away or fall apart is necessary to start your path to greatness. You just have to choose the next right thing. Anthony chose.
- [22:17]
Anthony
I chose to be a man who was granted my freedom. Whether you're incarcerated or out in the free world, it's easy to feel powerless. Limitations, uncertainty, and heavy circumstances can make it seem like we have no control. Some of us let the past define our future, while others get stuck in fear and doubt, believing the obstacles are too great to overcome. But the truth is, we always have a choice. We may not be able to change our circumstances overnight, but we can choose how we respond to them. Every small decision to hold on to hope, to take one more step forward, to believe in something better, adds up over time. And in that choice, we reclaim our power. In the darkest times, we must choose and practice hope. Activist Mariame Kaba says, hope is a discipline, and I believe that deeply. And as Fred Hampton once said, if you dare to struggle, you dare to win. Growth, freedom, and change all come with a price. But if you commit to the fight, you'll come out on the other side. I know this because I lived it. At 18, I was sentenced to 36 years in prison. I spent 16 years incarcerated, never knowing if or when I'd have the chance to be free. Imagine that facing the possibility of spending more than half your life behind bars before even living your first third as an adult. Through those years, I learned that real change happens in the small, consistent choices we make every day. Even when progress isn't obvious, every disciplined step forward builds something greater. One day, you will make it home. And when you do, you'll know that you built your life on your own terms. Man Today is December 25th, Christmas Day. It's currently 11:19 I just kind of want to do a recap of the day, man. And D, man, it was amazing to be out here, bro, with my family, my guy, we did a little tour through the town, bro, I haven't been home, bro, in over 20 years, bro, and it was such a crazy experience. My life, it's. It's insane tomorrow, bro. It's just like. It's so surreal, my guy, because it looks so different. I'm walking up my driveway right now. I see my dad's truck. The house looks so different. My mom got all the lights up, and I'm about to walk inside and, bro, and I'm just thinking about you and your family, bro, and how much your family means to you. She's about to lose her mind when she sees me. She got all her decorations out. Everything just looks different. I'm not reading the doorbell or nothing because this is my house. I'm just walking in. Act like you don't know who I am. Don't act like you don't know who I am. What's up, bro?
- [25:28]
Kelly Messinger
Oh, Lord, you guys.
- [25:34]
Anthony
The house looks so different. Yeah, it looks so festive. All the plants. We was in the cell, bro, we used to always talk about our family and how important it was to be there for our families, bro. And I seen that today, bro.
- [25:55]
Kelly Messinger
How you doing?
- [25:56]
Anthony
Oh, you just want lovings, huh? Oh, you want all the lovers. People are waiting on our return, bro. And so everything that we did in there, bro, and everything that we do and everything that we endure, I want you to know, bro, it was worth it. And it is worth it, man. Not my jersey, my basketball jersey. You know, I watch how you are with your son on the phone, bro, and with your wife and how you used to. You would take your days, bro, from work and everything to spend the day with them. That encouraged and inspired me, man, for the day. I found me a wife, have me some kids, bro. How to be present. I remember you used to always tell him, bro, be present, right? That's the main thing, bro, is when I'm there with my family, bro, when I'm here, man, I'm present. I got two of my nephews sitting right here with me, Riley and Jerrick. Go ahead and say, what's up, Riley?
- [27:02]
Riley
What's up, everyone? It's Riley.
- [27:04]
Anthony
Go ahead and say, what's up, Jerrick?
- [27:06]
Jerrick
What's up, everyone? It's Jerick.
- [27:07]
Anthony
Christmas is like that. Wrap up of the year. There's a little pun in there. Get it? Wrap up of the year. You get to Share in the laughter, sharing the good times of the year, the hard times of the year. I kind of want to just talk to you guys about, you know, what was it like knowing that I was coming here for Christmas? And I'd be curious to know, like, what was it like spending Christmas without me?
- [27:26]
Riley
I had never really had anyone kind of just go like that, you know, just disappearing out of the blue. And then for the longest time, everyone kind of bullshitted me on, like, where you went. So me and Jacob are always just so curious about, you know, where's Anthony at? Because, you know, we still had Jonathan at the time, but it was.
- [27:43]
Anthony
How old were you?
- [27:43]
Riley
I would have been around nine years old.
- [27:46]
Anthony
How old are you now?
- [27:47]
Riley
25. So it's definitely surreal seeing you here. Like, you're here, like, skin, bone, flesh, muscle, laughter, voice. For me, it's still kind of, like, a shock, and I'm still processing, but I'm also, like, enjoying the fact that the three of us are, like, here at this table just goofing around. Because, you know, before everything really changed, this house is just, like, super humorous, lively. Let's figure out how we're gonna piss off granny.
- [28:17]
Anthony
You know.
- [28:20]
Riley
Lots of fingers are gonna be pointed the other way.
- [28:23]
Anthony
You know, my first Christmas in jail, it was actually in jail in the county. You know, you try to call home, talk with your family, it's just a voice. I can't be there to watch no one open up presents, do the custom right of just being together, celebrating each other. What about you, Jerrick? What's it like?
- [28:41]
Jerrick
I have literally only slept two hours in, like, three days. Like, I was, like, tossing and turning because I was a little bit older when it happened. So I don't. I don't want to sound, like, insensitive, but I didn't like it register yet. A lot happened so quickly. You taught me so much, like, genuinely, Like, I would never have even been able to, like, do sports and stuff that I loved if it wasn't, like. If you didn't love it first. You know what I mean? And music, taste, shoes. Like, you know what I mean? Like, everything. Like, I lies you. And then when boo pass, I got to see you at a funeral. And then that's. That's genuinely. That's when it all real, real hit me bad. And boo was gone.
- [29:17]
Anthony
How old are you now?
- [29:18]
Jerrick
28. And I think the last time I saw you before shackles, 13, 14, when we got you, the kids bop, because me and Jonathan didn't know what kidz bop was. And we thought it was just those songs, and we knew you liked, like, almost all the songs on there. We didn't know it was kids singing censored versions of the song.
- [29:36]
Anthony
Yeah, Now I remember when I got that cd, too. I'm like, man, what is this, man? It was not popping, it was not cracking. It was not slapping. It was none of that. I ain't gonna lie, man. I slapped that CD a couple times because there was a couple songs on there. I was just had to get past the little kids voices singing it, and I was just like, this is not cracking, bro. I was in the core. And my nephew Jerick was like, bro, do you mind if I do something weird? I'm like, what's up, bro? He just started touching me, man. And he was like, bro, it's crazy that I can touch you, because this doesn't seem real that you're here. The people that we love, we're a dream to them. It's crazy how sometimes, bro, you be calling when I need to talk to you, bro.
- [30:24]
Vic Chopra
That.
- [30:24]
Anthony
That should be weird. You know what I'm saying? Like, when I be going through it, it's like we have, like this sixth sense, bro, knowing to tap in with each other and check in on each other, man. And I think that just means that we got a dope bond as brothers, bro, because we can tell when the other one needs something, man. Sometimes when you call in, bro, I know that you. No way, Brody. Hold on. This is. There's no way. This is real right now. Check me out.
- [30:51]
Garthy Sailors
Recalls the Nelson.
- [30:54]
Anthony
Oh, Brody, you're calling, right? That's crazy. Hold on, man. We about to get this on here, bro.
- [31:02]
Garthy Sailors
If you believe this should be a private call, please hang up and follow facility instructions to register this number as a private number. One to refuse this pre call. Thank you for using Securus.
- [31:14]
Vic Chopra
Hold on.
- [31:15]
Garthy Sailors
Conversation now.
- [31:17]
Anthony
What's up, boy?
- [31:18]
Garthy Sailors
Yo.
- [31:19]
Anthony
Hey. You know what's crazy is I was literally just sitting here recording, bro, and I was talking about how, bro, when we be going through things, man, or if I'll be going through things out here, bro, how you be calling right on time, man, and here you are, bro.
- [31:36]
Garthy Sailors
Wow. He was doing some stuff for the podcast, man, and it's. I call it the again at the right time. That's crazy.
- [31:47]
Anthony
That's crazy. I was literally just talking to you, bro, about how, you know, I'm saying I. I'll be thinking about at times like this, like what you be doing in the cell when we were cellies, bro, that you be Calling your family, be calling your partners, and kind of just checking up on people, bro. This is your time to check up on people, man. And just to see that you call right now, bro. That's crazy, bro.
- [32:09]
Garthy Sailors
Yeah, bro, you know, this. This is that time, bro. Right now. I just got off the phone.
- [32:16]
Anthony
And.
- [32:17]
Garthy Sailors
Just, you know, making my rounds, man, trying to check on those that I care about, man. You out there now. So usually we were both being here doing the same thing, bro. That's crazy, bro. I just. That's crazy that we was able to, like, at the. On the exact same time, man. I was be able to tap in with each other, especially at this point in time while you're doing that. But that's crazy.
- [32:41]
Anthony
I know, bro. You know that holiday.
- [32:44]
Garthy Sailors
That holiday comic book? You can have to eat all that stuff and, man, and all them fancy dinners, you know, them good desserts out there, man.
- [32:55]
Anthony
My body wasn't ready for all that bacteria.
- [33:00]
Garthy Sailors
You know, we. We had the usual in here, you know, with the turkey and the potatoes and all that.
- [33:11]
Anthony
Yeah.
- [33:11]
Garthy Sailors
Guys end up coming together and making stuff Campbell and ready. We all came together, man.
- [33:17]
Anthony
You know? Okay.
- [33:18]
Garthy Sailors
You know, one of the things we used to do before you left, you know, we used the podcasting. We used to all come together.
- [33:24]
Anthony
Right.
- [33:25]
Garthy Sailors
Together on the weekends. So we still keeping that tradition alive, bro.
- [33:29]
Anthony
That's what's good.
- [33:30]
Garthy Sailors
Christmases.
- [33:33]
Anthony
No, bro, that's dope, man. I'm doing all right, man.
- [33:39]
Garthy Sailors
What was it like?
- [33:40]
Anthony
It's different, man. You know, I was talking about it, you know what I'm saying, earlier, too, bro? Like, it's just different, man. Just trying to navigate, you know what I'm saying? People, you don't know, you know, people put their day mask on, and then they go home and peel that off and they're mad, bro. You know what I'm saying? And so my biggest thing, bro, I've been just trying to make sure I stay the same, man. That's a reality, though, man. People are always wearing all these masks, and they're wondering why they're upset because their yesterday doesn't matter match there today.
- [34:09]
Garthy Sailors
Yeah, I understand. Yeah. How are you dealing with that?
- [34:13]
Anthony
I remember something you told me, bro, remember who you are versus what you're capable of. And so I remind myself who I am, and it makes me understand how to navigate, and I'm able to tap into that willpower. But prison taught me willpower, bro.
- [34:31]
Garthy Sailors
Yeah, I often think about that, you know, because the truth is, if we have an encounter with the law out There, like, when I get up here, right, if I have an account with the law, it's going to be totally different for someone who's never been through what we've been through, you know, with the criminal history and things like that. So it's best to try to have your thinking cap on at all times, man.
- [34:52]
Anthony
You know, it's crazy. You say that is the other day, bro, I blew a stop sign, right? And, man, I got pulled over, bro. I'm like, oh, man. Bro, I was rattled, bro. Yeah, man. Cause, you know, I was like, oh, man, am I about to experience all the things I seen on tv, right? You know what's crazy, bro? You never got to meet him. But I remember this officer named Jibo. His name's Oyen, right? Used to work at spl. I remember what he said. He said, kobra, when you get out, what are you gonna do if you get pulled over? I said, oyen, what do you think I should do? He said, man, keep your hands on the steering wheel and do what they tell you. I said, then that's what I'm going to do. So I kept my hands on that steering wheel, and I waited for him to come up to my window. And he was like, hey, man, no, I pulled you over. I said, yeah, man, I think I blew that stop sign back there. You know, my apologies. You know, I'm saying I was just being careless. And he's like, yeah, that is pretty careless, man. You know what I'm saying? He's like, you got a license and registration on you? I said, I do. It's in my glove compartment. Do you mind if I grab it? I got both my hands on the wheel, so you can see I ain't going to do nothing acting crazy. He's like, nah, you're good, man. I see you're being compliancy. And he talked to me, bro, and he said, I'm not here to do anything crazy, man. I just want you to know that blowing that stop sign, you could have hurt some people. And this is just a formality. And I'm like, I understand that, brother. You know what I'm saying? I just want to make sure that we're both safe in this situation. And I want to make sure that I'm being clear about what I'm doing. And so I'm going to reach in here and grab this registration in my wallets in my back left pocket. And so I'm going to do one at a time, and I'm not going to move fast, you know? What I'm saying. He's like, listen. He said, I'm gonna make this easy. I'm gonna go back in my car. You grab all the stuff you need, and then put your hand out the window when you got it. I said, all right. So we went back to his car. I got the stuff I need to put my hand out the window. He came out. He said, man, we're not all out here being bad, right? And I'm like, look, I appreciate what I'm saying. And he said, I ran your stuff. I seen you just got out of prison. He said, I'm gonna give you a break. He said, just mind your stop signs and go on about your day, bro. My heart was racing, bro.
- [37:06]
Garthy Sailors
Yeah, that's crazy, bro. It's cool. I. I think more than anything, I respect the fact that he, you know, looking you up, man. And still after getting out, you're still getting seconds. You know, People are giving you a second look.
- [37:18]
Anthony
Please.
- [37:18]
Garthy Sailors
You show up who you are. Like when he was in here, bro. Show them who you are. Yeah, wait till I get that opportunity, bro, to get the out of here and just live my life, man, and make those decisions. Those are the tests that you actually have to go through so that you can show yourself and the world who you are today. A lot. I respect that, man. But there's a lot of people out there providing resources. You have one minute left. It's all good. You hear that? One minute. That's that. Morning, man.
- [37:51]
Anthony
I know, bro. That joint is corny, man. It's crazy to hear it on this end, on from you, bro. You know? No, I love you, though, bro.
- [37:58]
Garthy Sailors
Hey.
- [37:59]
Anthony
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Garthy Sailors
Keep doing what you're doing. When I get there, we're gonna continue to do some unique things out there, man. I appreciate you, man.
- [38:12]
Anthony
You know, like Nipsey said, man, the marathon continues, man. You know, so we gonna do some big things once you touch down, bro. And I'm ready to receive, bro. Love you, bro.
- [38:23]
Garthy Sailors
Goodbye.
- [38:26]
Anthony
Bro. I just miss you, man. I miss our talks at night when we just recap the dam, like, okay, how are we gonna make it through the next one when there's a whole bunch of going on around us? We regroup, we get it together, and we're like, okay, this is how we're gonna handle it. You know what I mean? It's not the same, bro. Sitting in the cell with you, bro, and being able to see you, touch you, and be like, you know, bro's right here. But I can feel that you're right here still with me, bro, when we get the call. But I can't wait for you to come home, bro. And it's gonna happen sooner than later, my guy. I remember one time, bro, we were sitting in there in the BPC meeting. My guy, he was like, well, I'm gonna tell you something after this meeting. And I spoke, told my story after the meeting, you say, bro, that's your congregation. She said, you're gonna be able to speak to those brothers. And I was just like, bro, you're right. Yeah. Brother once told me to be strong. Never really know again. I love you, bro. Man, I just am so grateful, man, for all the things that you showed me, man, and that we got to teach each other while we was together. And I look forward to us doing that once we out. See you in a minute, mama. Wipe your tears away I'm back at home and I'm here to stay Said I made it home and I'm into stay.
- [40:24]
Vic Chopra
For those wondering, yes, that is Anthony singing and playing guitar on his freedom day, the day he was released from prison. You might remember in our first episode, I mentioned how it could be years before Anthony was able to speak to Demar or Red or Cambo again. Well, as you just heard, we're happy to report that Anthony is doing so well, he has permission from his probation officer to have phone calls with Damar. I recently sat down with Anthony to have a frank and honest discussion about our freedom journeys and how we both have handled it in our own unique ways. So this is. This is the first time I believe that you and I have recorded together. Right?
- [41:09]
Anthony
This is definitely the first time that we have recorded together.
- [41:12]
Vic Chopra
Anthony's been out for several months now, so I just want to have a conversation reflecting back on kind of that journey that you've been on. Right. So we just listened to a little bit of his conversation with Damar. What are your thoughts and feelings about hearing that recording now?
- [41:28]
Anthony
It was a bit emotional for me. I think it just hit me hearing it on this side for the first time. When we did that recording, I, like, had those papers out, and I reread them almost every day. Like, I would sleep with them on my bed to wake up to make sure I heard the crinkling of the paper and re read. I'm like, this isn't a dream. This is real. It's like one of those things, like, you work for a goal so long, and then you finally achieve it. It's like, did I really just make it happen? Because it seemed like a fleeting dream. I'M chasing for this thing. I know it's tangible, but I've been doing it so long, it's like Pavlov series. Like, you just become used to just hoping instead of thinking that it can be a reality.
- [42:09]
Vic Chopra
When you do time, your release date is this fixed date in the future that you are just on a hamster wheel going towards. And it just almost seems never going to happen.
- [42:19]
Anthony
It just.
- [42:19]
Vic Chopra
It's like, yeah, when I get out. But, like, sometimes it does. It feels very fleeting. It feels like a dream. It feels like you don't really know if it's going to happen. You think, maybe I'm stuck in here forever. So let's talk about the journey of you getting out. And when we're released from prison, we sort of ride this pink cloud, right? We kind of bring this thought process. When I get out, I'm going to be so grateful to just be free, that life's going to be so great and easy. I don't care. I'm sitting in traffic. I'm grateful for traffic. This very famous line many guys will say is, I don't care if I have to sleep under a bridge as long as I'm free. Right? And we put so much emphasis on our freedom and what that's going to give us. And it does. It gives us so much. I put my freedom and my sobriety first every day, right. But it's a both. And life is also very hard, right? And moves very fast. Once you ride out that pink cloud, it does burst. And then you're left with, okay, I'm free now. And I have all these decisions to make for myself now, which is a blessing and a curse, because when we're incarcerated, so much of our decision making is taken away from us. We don't have a lot of decisions to make. The. The biggest decisions we have to make are what to buy on commissary. For me, it was what to watch on tv, what music to buy for my music player, and that's it. When you get out, you're hit with infinite number of choices. And then you throw in your phone, the Internet, Instagram, dating apps, the entire wealth of knowledge of human existence at your fingertips. With the click of a button, you just get whiplash. I. I feel. I feel like I've developed ADD in the years that I've been out because of everything. I get analysis, paralysis a lot. Even to this day, I have trouble making decisions. Tell me, what was that experience like for you?
- [44:02]
Anthony
So I sent almost all my property out right when I got Out. And so the only thing that I was carrying when I was leaving prison was my box of magic, the gathering cards. And I'm walking out the breezeway. I remember saying goodbye to my bros, and I walked out, and there's a gate where there's the visiting room, and it says, no unescorted traffic. Staff only. I read that gate, and I looked at the officer I was with. He's like, what's up? I'm like, am I walking through here? He's like, you don't have to if you don't want to. Like making a joke. I set my stuff down when they opened that gate, and I was like, I really get to walk through here. Like, I'm asking him with so much so since he's at covert, pick your stuff up and let's go. And so I pick my stuff up and I walk through that gate, and I'm telling myself, but I didn't know I was saying it out loud. I was like, I'm walking out.
- [44:50]
Vic Chopra
Out.
- [44:51]
Anthony
I'm walking out. I'm walking out. And he's like, do you want to go back inside and sit down for a minute? I was like, nope. And I'm like, I'm putting on real clothes. And I'm like, holy, this is real. And I get picked up in a limo, bro. You know what I'm saying? An all white limo, man. My family's outside the door. People flew from Seattle. People came from all over the place. In that cloud, I jumped on it. Freedom. And I'm riding like, there's not going to be a care in the world now. When I woke up on day two, life hit me kind of fast. I'm like, what do I do now? And the first thing I think about is like, when do I get to leave my room? Life just started happening, bro. Like, I started getting involved with stuff, obstacles, man. When you start doing things and you're seeking for your independence, it gets in the way of other people Sometimes you learn when you get out that some people have plans for your life that you don't know about. And then people want to sometimes baby you because, like, they think you're this fragile jar. That whole saying, meet you where you're at. I felt like I wasn't met where I was at. I thought I had it all figured out. Getting out and you realize so fast that your blueprints are thrown out the window and you. It's you literally writing your life as it goes. I felt like sometimes, like, people felt like I owed them something. And I remember you telling me, like, bro, the only person you owe is yourself to be free.
- [46:14]
Vic Chopra
People like us, we hit the ground running. We want to do everything and we don't want anybody to tell us no. We don't want to get recarcerated, right? Like on the outs, right? And sometimes it feels like these rules and stipulations and things can get in the way. Sometimes you just have to jump through those hoops and you just have to live with those for a little while. Because it's not forever when you're on probation or community custody and you just have to look at the bigger picture and look at like, okay, I can't jeopardize any of this because I could potentially go back. You know what I mean? And what was Your original sentence?
- [46:45]
Anthony
36. Six years.
- [46:46]
Vic Chopra
Four years of which you did 16. That's hanging over your head for the next three years. Is anything worth that?
- [46:52]
Anthony
Absolutely not. Listen.
- [46:54]
Vic Chopra
Absolutely not. Exactly.
- [46:56]
Anthony
I've gotten to the grocery shop on my own. I don't have to sit here and pull from the bin that has rotten fruit in it. Like, I'm sitting here talking to you on a zoom call right now. Being able to bounce ideas back and forth on you. I'm able to text you like, hey, bro, I'm going through it at one in the morning. Why would I want to give that up again? Just talk, talking about me. And I don't want to put anybody else in that. Mix that for me. There's nothing worth giving this up. I was able to get out of a transitional house, living space I was in. I'm in my own space now. It's so nice. I have a dog. I have a girl that loves me. I can't think of why I would want to throw all that away. That experience is beyond comprehension unless you have been there. A lot of people, they'll watch these TV shows and think like, oh, that's prison. There's only one movie I've watched where it shows, like, anything about prison that keeps it just about as close as possible, and that's Shawshank Redemption. Andy Dufresne are so many Andy Dufresne's in prison that are teaching people how to read, helping people study, trying to create libraries, but you don't ever really get to hear about stuff like that. If there was anything about prison that I missed, it was those spaces to be with people that were just so real at times.
- [48:20]
Vic Chopra
We have something in there that nobody else has on the outs, and that's the gift of presence and that's something I strive to get back and bring into my life every day because there's so many distractions in the world move so fast out here. Right. You know, I think, like, no matter how bad things get out here, we can always be like, well, at least we're free. I'm grateful for travel. I'm grateful that I've gotten to travel so much in my life and we with work. I'm grateful for what I get to do for work. I. I get to be a creative. I'm grateful for my spirituality that I continue to learn and grow with. And I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for love and friendship and this earth and so much. I. I have so much gratitude for everything, the good and the bad, too. And I just. Because it's. It's life. We just get one.
- [49:09]
Anthony
No, if there's one thing that I had to say, say that I'm grateful for is my power of choice. I have control again. I have the power of choice to control where my life goes from here on out. I'm grateful for my, my, my doc officer man for allowing me to be able to stay in contact with the more, you know, so we can still continue to be each other's accountability partners. I'm grateful for you, Vic and Rachel. We're sitting here now being able to tell our story. I'm grateful for my dog Quavo, man. That's my little partner, man. It's just one of those things, man, where I'm just grateful for my life, man. I'm grateful for love, man, the love of a community, the love of my people. I had to call my mom my second day out, and I asked her if I was home, and she told me, baby, you're home.
- [50:21]
Vic Chopra
We want to thank you for listening to this episode of Concrete Mama, the podcast. On our next episode, we take you back inside the penitentiary to once again hear from Demar and learn more about his history and the journey that led to his incarceration. Here's a sneak peek.
- [50:37]
Demar
That whole Persona took a life of its own, and so now I'm full time in the streets. I'm not carrying a football. That's over. I'm carrying a gun now.
- [50:48]
Vic Chopra
Don't miss it.
- [50:55]
Rachel Cech
This podcast was produced by Unincarcerated Productions. I'm Rachel Cech, one of the producers. This episode, we would like to acknowledge Anthony's family for sharing their intimate moments with us cousins Riley Jerick and his mom, Sherry. Thanks also for the O Tannenbaum cover arranged and performed by Marco Vidic and Rose Peek. That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bentz is our editor, audio engineer and graphic designer. Megan Sanchez handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and me Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla and Washington State Doc have made this project possible. For more info, check out our show notes and you can write us with questions about the podcast at the email and address listed there. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. You can also subscribe to support us and get extra content. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.