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Concrete Mama: The Podcast
BONUS - A Conversation with Washington State Attorney General Nick Brown
00:49:35
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, Concrete Mama fam, it's Vic, one of your hosts, showrunners and executive producers. We have a very special bonus episode for you today. After we launched season one of Concrete Mama, the podcast, we were contacted by the office of Nick Brown, the Attorney General of Washington State. Turns out Nick became a fan of the podcast after reading about us in the Seattle Times, and he wanted to come out and visit our studio at the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla and sit down and and talk with the team inside. You know, needless to say, not only were we surprised by this news, but we were also truly honored that a high ranking official within the Washington State leadership wanted to come record with us. The entire Unincarcerated Productions and Concrete Mama team want to give a big thank you to Nick and his team, including Nina Jenkins, for making this happen. And now let's hear from Damar in Red and Attorney General Nick Brown,
- [00:54]
B
Concrete mom of the podcast. This is one of your hosts, D. Nelson here.
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C
Red here. Concrete mom of the podcast.
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B
And this is a very special day, an amazing day, and it's a one of a kind day because we have our Attorney General. The general here. How you doing?
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D
I'm doing good. Thank you for having me.
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B
What's your name, man? Tell them who your name is.
- [01:13]
D
My name is Nick Brown. I'm the Washington State Attorney General.
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C
Yeah, we feel honored, man, to have you here and we really appreciate you for taking the time out to come up here.
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B
Tell me about when you heard about Concrete Mama, the podcast.
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D
It was sometime early last year when the Seattle Times did the article about you guys. Every morning when I come into my office in Seattle, my assistant has a copy of the paper and it's just on my desk and I saw the COVID and I was like, wait a minute, there's a podcast from a prison? Like, when did we start doing that? And read the article, I was just really intrigued. And then I wrote a note on it and gave it to Nina, who works with me in our communication shop and was just like, let's go do this.
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E
Wow.
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D
She's like, go do the podcast. Like, yeah, let's go do it. So that's how it got on the radar. It took us a while to get it scheduled and everything, but before that I had never heard of it.
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B
So, man, that's crazy. Like, out of everything, you get a lot of invites for certain things. I'm pretty sure people are always on top of you about making appearances and so what was the driving force, though? What were your thoughts? You see the paper, if you can, you know, walk me through that.
- [02:24]
D
What were your thoughts for sure? Well, first I was like, I wasn't sure if I should invite myself. You know, you're right. I get invited to a lot of things. People ask me to come speak or just be at events or whatever, but it's a little rude to invite yourself somewhere else. But I didn't think you guys would necessarily think about reaching out to me. I mean, we'll talk more, I'm sure, about my career and everything, but I've spent the beginning part of my legal career as a lawyer in the criminal space, working as a defense lawyer, as a prosecutor. You know, most recently, I was the U.S. attorney for Western Washington, so the top federal prosecutor. So I spent a lot of time in and around prisons, including here at the penitentiary. This is my third or fourth time here. Oh, wow. It's been a while. It's been over 10 years,
- [03:14]
B
but it's.
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D
You know, I think our prison systems are a part of our society that so few people pay attention to. Your families, friends pay attention to people who are impacted victims, they pay attention to it. But for the most part, most of society does not. Unless, you know, like, here. This is. A lot of people in the community work here, obviously, and so they know. But it's such a hidden part of our community. And, you know, I was intrigued just to learn more and also just to try to bring more awareness to the. To what's happening. You know, it's a huge part of the overall state and government structure.
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C
Right.
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D
The Department of Corrections got a lot of people. We have a lot of lawyers that work for the Department of Corrections, and then public safety issues in general, always on top of people's mind. But this is. This is part of the system. This is part of what it means to have a justice system. And it doesn't get talked about enough. So I was just like, let's just. Let's just go show up.
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C
Yeah.
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D
So thank you for letting me invite myself on.
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B
You can keep coming back, you know, we can have you as a regular.
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C
Absolutely, man. Reoccurring guests.
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B
Well, I mean, one of the things that I learned about you was that your slogan was give a damn. And I was like, wow, he. He's really living true to that. You give a damn enough to come sit with us? Because you're right, we're like the city on no map. Prisoners. And that's something that we live with. So for you to come and actually spend time with us and for us to get to know You. I think what it's going to do is with your leadership, it's going to make people second guess what rooms they show up in when they don't have to be there. You know, you didn't have to be here, but you chose to be. And so that really speaks to the leadership.
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D
Now, when I, you know, I spent four, four and a half years working for the prior governor, Governor Inslee, as his lawyer, and that was the first time that brought me here doing all. So I did all of his clemency and pardon work, a lot of justice policy stuff. But I. What I always appreciated about him was that he was fairly brave in his leadership. I thought, you know, there's. There's not a lot of political upside to talking about prisons.
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C
Right.
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D
You know, it doesn't. You don't get a lot of wins, politically speaking.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Thank you for being honest about that. No, it's just the truth.
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D
Yeah, that's the truth. But I always appreciated Governor Inslee. Like, he didn't shy away from making tough decisions or tough engagement. And I do think it's just such an important, important part of my job as the Attorney general. Like, I represent everybody in the state, even that includes y', all, you know, and so my job is to make sure that we are doing the best things for all of the people in our state. And that includes, you know, everybody who's. Who lives here and, and the prison system and houses so many people. It employs a lot of people, and we just got to be more involved, I think.
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B
When you gonna run for president, man?
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D
Never? No.
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C
No.
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D
Oh, man, no. You know, first of all, I love my job currently, but I do think the things that, the things that most are most interesting to me and the things that are most impactful for people are state issues. You know, we, as a public, we spend a lot of time talking about the presidency and Congress and what's happened or not happening. But the things that most impact people's lives are being decided at our state capitol and our city hall and county governments. And I've always thought that we need to pay more attention to this work. And so I don't really have any interest in going to D.C. my family wouldn't want me to go to D.C. at least not right now. That's not appealing at all.
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B
What is the driving force, if you don't mind sharing that up into who you become? Can you really share what's your feelings towards continuing to persevere?
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D
Yeah.
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B
Pushes you.
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D
I don't think it's any one thing Necessarily, you know, a lot of people get driven by money or fame or, or certain types of success. You know, for me, mostly I think because of my parents and, and their careers and what they talk to me about. But for me, it was like giving a damn. You know, that became a slogan because it was what they pushed me for. Giving a damn about what's happened around you, you know, and like, and recognizing that you can be a part of the positive change and impact. And so for me, I like. I liked personally, I like to be involved. I liked being in the room where decisions were being made and having my voice being heard and also seeing, like, you know, the small things and the big things that, that you could make a difference in, um, in my career, you know, I've. I sort of fell into various portions of my career. So I started my, my legal career as an army lawyer.
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B
Right, right.
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D
On active duty. But when I went to law school, it wasn't because I really wanted to be a lawyer or do criminal work. I just was like, law school seems like a good option, right? You can do a lot of different things with a law degree. I wasn't like trying to be some fancy prosecutor or fancy corporate lawyer or whatever. But then for me, when I fell into criminal work, when I was in the army, I was an army defense lawyer. So I was defending folks in the army who are accused of crimes. That was my first time.
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B
Okay.
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D
And really from the, from the jump, being in a courtroom and representing people really, really appealed to me, both the pure energy and performance side of it. You know, you go into a courtroom and the ability to try to convince a judge or a jury of what you're saying, and the performance of it, for me, gave me a lot of energy. But then the real substance of working with someone who's been accused of something and they put their liberty in your hands, and that's a powerful, powerful experience for both the person and for the lawyer to know that this person's freedom or well being depends on how good you are at your job. And from that beginning, for me, it was like this. Work matters. You know, like, I had friends. You know, I went to a fancy law school where they pay a lot of law students a lot of money. And I have friends working at big firms and big cities making three, four times as much money as I was. But all they were doing was, like, reviewing documents for some corporate business, which is, you know, it's important work. But I was not, I was not excited about the idea of helping some rich person get richer Right, right. I was excited about impacting this person's life, and I loved it. I fell in love with being in the. In the criminal justice system, the criminal legal system. I did that for a couple years, switched and became a prosecutor. And I loved going to court and saying, you know, I'm here on behalf of the United States because you have a whole community that you're representing and trying to do good on behalf of the people. And so that has always been exciting for me. It's always felt meaningful for me. It's always driven me to keep doing these things. And I did a little bit of time in private practice, which I liked. It was good work. But I always was coming back to, what is the work that matters? You know, what is the work that, like, when I die, my kids are going to say, well, my dad did this, or my dad tried to do this. Right. My dad was involved in this. You know, they. If I died and after being really rich working a law firm, they might say, well, that got real rich. Which is not nothing, you know, not. But, you know, the legacy and the work, it will speak for itself, hopefully. Yeah.
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C
I was kind of wondering for, like, kids that might be listening to this and younger adults, like, what was your mindset when you were in, like, junior high and high school and stuff? Like, what. I mean, where do you go? Because, you know, when we're in school, we're kind of like, we don't really know what we're gonna do. What was. What were you thinking? Like, what was your mindset back then?
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D
I mean, I was always in. In junior high, high school. Like, I was always involved, you know, Like, I was the kid doing student government.
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B
Yeah, so that's the.
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D
I was 8th grade student body president in my little middle school dope, man. You know, So I was always trying to be involved, but I also, like, did all the, you know, quote unquote, normal things, like played sports and all that stuff. I was big into playing football and. And all those things. And also just like, focused on trying to figure out life, like girls and, you know, school and all those things, you know? Yeah, I don't think I had some big vision about what I wanted to do necessarily, but I was always the type of person, like, raising my hand to be involved or to be part of what, you know, what organizations I could be.
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C
I do have a question about that, just to add on. So my mom's dad, Grandpa Teigen, he was a mechanic in World War II for the Army. And then my dad was a airborne ranger. Do you like, would you. Is that something that you attribute your success to, like going to the military? Or would you change it if you could go back or.
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D
No, I wouldn't change it. So both my parents were military. My father was 27 years. My mother did just a few years active duty.
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B
Okay.
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D
That's how they met back in the. In the army in the 60s. And so when I was thinking about going to college, my parents were like, well, you need a scholarship if you want to go anywhere out of state. We're not going to pay for it. We can't pay for it. And so I started applying for scholarships. I applied for Army ROTC scholarship, and that helped me pay for my undergrad. But when I got into the army, you know, my. My beginning days were doing legal work, but also getting that leadership skill, the sort of sacrifice and service ingrained in you. And there's something very different about being an army lawyer than being any other kind of lawyer, because you are not only representing your clients, but you're leading them, and you're a soldier and you're. You know, when I spent a year in Iraq during the Iraqi War, you know, I was representing soldiers over there, but I carried my. My M16A2 wherever I went, you know, absolutely crazy.
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B
Crazy.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Parallel.
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D
And I went to airborne school after the Army JAG school, both because it was fun for me. Right. I was like, I like the energy and the adrenaline from that, but also, you know, I wanted the credibility with the rest of the military that I was representing that, like, I've done at least some of the things that regular, quote, unquote, regular soldiers do. Wow.
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C
100%.
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D
And so I have, you know, the army taught me a lot. It really did. And you are working with people from all over the world, all over the country. Right. The army is a good melting pot of people from all over places and different. So that kind of experience was really important to me.
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C
Yeah, traveling the world, man. That's what my dad used to say. You get to travel the world.
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D
So, yeah, yeah, I was good. I was glad to get out because I wanted to settle and be home and be one place and. And focus on, you know, my career more. But starting my career as an army lawyer was. Was really important.
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B
So I got a little surprise for you because we talked about your career. Look at that Nick.
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D
That's a young man.
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B
That's a young Nick right there. Tell me about him, man.
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D
So this is a.
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B
This. Tell me about that moment. What's going on? I looked at that. I'm like that's, that's that survivor Nick. I can see it, man.
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D
Well, this was actually. This was in college.
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B
That's not coming out of rotc.
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D
That is in rotc. So this was at the end of my ROTC summer camp. So every ROTC kid spends their summer, or at least part of their summer at a ROTC camp. They call it advanced camp. At the time, everybody went to Fort Lewis and so everybody in America came to Fort Lewis for like seven weeks or something like that. So I got hella skinny. Just MRE mode and personal training, up all day working. And I remember I lost like £15 that summer and my parents were coming to pick me up. So I'm happy and relieved and skinny. Yeah, a lot of running.
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C
A lot of pull ups, huh?
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D
A lot of pull ups. A lot of running. Yeah, for sure. Always on the go 24 7.
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B
What kind of memories and thoughts come to mind? You know, your parents are coming to pick you up and what kind of feelings are you carrying right there?
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D
Oh, you know, I was relief.
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B
Were you done? You're coming out?
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D
I'm coming out. Yeah. That was at the end. They were coming to pick me up. It was a fun summer, but it was hard too. And you know, like, seeing mom and dad come see you was. Was good. The other thing that this triggers for me is, you know, when I went off to rotc, America hadn't been in a war since Vietnam, right? So for me, like the, the prospect of going to war.
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C
Right.
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D
Was like, that's not going to happen.
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A
Right.
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D
Same for my parents. And so in 2005 when I was on active duty and they were looking for people to go to Iraq and I volunteered to go, my mom was like, what are you doing? I was like, well, this is your fault. You know, like, you're the one that told me to go into rotc. You know, I was teasing with her, but sure. So I think that, you know, some, some naiveness in this picture too, about what the future might hold.
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B
Okay, I want to share something with you personally. Like when I look at this picture, what it triggered for me is I could have been you, man. Because, you know, I almost went to the Marines, but my grandma talking about the black community, they think every time you're going to enlist to go to the army or service, that you're going to go to war. So I asked my grandma at one point I was going to go join and I, to this day, like, if I could do it differently, I'd go and be a Navy seal like I love the grind. I like working hard. That's like my. I. I got a thing inside of me that I'm a hard driver, exercise, whatever, where there's, like, toll. I want to do that. So when I look at this picture, I'm like, you know, but now I can. I think about my son, you know, and what he could become.
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D
So how old is your son?
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B
He's 17.
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D
17?
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B
Yeah. He's about to graduate Emerald. Emerald Ridge. Yeah. In Puyallup.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Come on.
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B
So I know, you know, thank you for sharing that with us. Know, man.
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C
Yeah, man. It makes me think about. Because I graduated in 04, like, what could have been, you know, like, if I would have went in the military. My dad didn't want me to. He told me no, but, man, you know, I wish I would have.
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B
Now, when I hearing you bring that up, makes me think about your. What your father instilled in you. I learned that your father really raised you with the drum beat of making a difference, and it's something that I got in my notes. What does that look like for you today? And thinking back on that, Well, I.
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D
You know, first, I don't want to cut out my mother from that conversation.
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B
Sorry, Mom.
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D
That's all right.
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B
For sure.
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D
Because my mom was. Particularly when I was younger, my mom was the biggest impact for me, for sure. It wasn't until really I became sort of teenager that my father and I really bonded in a. In a different way.
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B
For sure.
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D
So. But both of them spent most of their careers in public service, in the military, working for government. And, you know, I have no doubt that where I am now is because of them telling me to be involved. And my father was involved in the civil rights movement back in the 60s. Yeah. You know, and they were in D.C. in the 60s when the civil rights movement was really happening, and have always pushed me to, like, pay attention. Right. Not necessarily to believe certain things or do certain things, but, like, just to pay attention. Like, we were a family that talked about the news and current events, and, you know, that engagement was really foundational for me. Okay. And I try to do that now with my own family, like, engage them in what's happening. But, yeah, no doubt my parents helped me push, push here.
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B
Is there a specific vision that you have when it comes to making a difference that's close to your heart?
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D
You know, I don't have, like, some big one or one big thing that I want to get done as Attorney General. Like, my job is to. To fight for people, to represent people. I Represent all of government, but also the people. And so, you know, when I bring a case on behalf of the state of Washington, like, I'm speaking for 8 million people.
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B
Right.
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D
And we need. I don't want to waste the time. You know, it's easy to get in these jobs and be like, get comfortable a little bit.
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B
I got you.
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D
And then, you know, I'm a year plus now into this job, and the time goes so quickly. So I'm just trying to make the most of my time here to help people. I'm particularly mindful of the people that I think often don't have voices or get neglected and fight the good fight for people who may be less popular. Uh, you know, it's. It's easy to stand up and champion things that everybody agrees with, right?
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C
Yeah.
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D
For me, it's a much harder and more important fight sometimes to put your name on paper on behalf of people that are marginalized or people that not everybody is likes or thinks is popular. So I just want to try to be the best ag I can be. As long as the people are watching, it will have me.
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B
No. How can we as people come together when at a time like this where there's so much division would be my question for you. And do you have any visions close to your heart about that type of stuff?
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D
You know, there's a few. Few things that I would just suggest both for you in inside of here, for me, in my job, for really for rest of America. One, I do think it is important that we do continue to show up. We continue to engage with people that we disagree with. You know, we. We retreat to our corners in our politics, in our culture and our faiths, and we don't engage with people who are different. And that retreat is safe. Right. If I don't have to deal with someone who disagrees with me, he's going to tell me I'm wrong. That's a safe space. Someone who's going to challenge what I believe that is. That feels comforting to people. And so I understand why people do that. Ret. And it's incumbent upon us as individuals to resist that as much as possible. If I. If I want people to tell me everything I'm doing is great, then I'll only talk to people. My friends. Right. You know, or people who share my beliefs. My friends will still give me. Can I curse on this show?
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E
Yeah.
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D
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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B
They'll give you.
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D
They'll give me.
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B
My friends.
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D
We still give you.
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B
We're ain't censored.
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D
Yeah. You know, like the people that love you the most will give you the hardest time sometimes.
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C
Right.
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D
Because they're gonna keep you honest. But it easy to only associate with folks that believe what you believe. And so we have to, we have to lean in, lean against that. I think sometimes, you know, there's so many people that are not engaged, that have a lot of wisdom. The really quiet people in the room who don't pound the table or demand to be heard that got a lot of truth that we need to, to talk to. And then the last thing I would say is that we need to be critical of ideas and issues and positions and not people. Right. So much of our disagreement comes, you know, the response is personal attacks. Like D is saying this, I'm attack D. I'm not going to attack what he's saying. I'm attack him.
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C
Right.
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D
And so we need, like, I have a lot of disagreement with Republicans or whatever in my politics, but I am very, very hesitant to criticize them. I'll criticize the idea and, and we should, we should criticize ideas. Like, I don't, my ideas aren't perfect. I want people to challenge what I believe in. But when they start challenging me personally, you know, it's really interesting because I, I've been reflecting a lot over the last year, you know, when you. I'm a, I'm a politician, right. I'm a high ranking Democratic elected attorney general. So I put myself out there, so nobody should feel bad for me. But I'm still surprised how much critique that I get that is not about what I've done, but it's about me personally and it's from the leaders of our state Republican Party. You know, three or four times in the last, I don't know, six months, the state Republican Twitter feed has called me a race hustler.
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C
No.
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D
First of all, I don't know what the they talk about. Excuse me, I'll stop you. I'm gonna stop.
- [24:50]
B
No, you're good.
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D
I don't know what they, I don't know what they mean by that. Yeah, but the audacity.
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C
Yeah.
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D
To put that out into the universe as the voice of this party.
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C
Sick, man.
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D
It is, it's really. And it's nothing about my idea. It's not your work or it's not about. Right. You want to tell me that this policy or this case that we brought is bad or you disagree with it? Let's debate that. But when you lead the tweet or the press release with like, Nick Brown is a race hustler well, then we're not. You're not trying to engage. You're not trying to have a conversation.
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B
You're trying to define.
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D
Right. You're trying to, you know, push. Push me down to the bottom. I mean, I don't. It's. It just surprises me that people think that's effective. Right.
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C
Turn people against you. Man, that's crazy.
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D
You know, and it was. I saw something a month or so ago is that, you know, we think about what keeps people engaged or what sells. Like, for a long time, people used to say, sex sells. Right. And it does. But I was watching this guy on a. On a podcast, actually. He was like, what sells more than anything else is rage. Rage sells.
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B
Yeah.
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D
People who are angry, they sell that. That sell. That gets people engaged. Yeah. And that's. That's a new awareness for people. Right? And rage. I mean, look, like it or not, Trump is a rageful president, and that rage has worked. You know, talking about people as others, calling people names, bullying, getting people angry has led to him being elected. You know, we used to think that unity and love and togetherness and that works for a lot of people, but it doesn't energize like, rage. And so I understand, in part, why people will do the approach that they do with me or others, but it is really. It devolves. And so I. You know, getting back to your question, like, we need to engage on the issues and the ideas and be critical of those things, but not of the people.
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B
It's crazy, too, to hear you talk about the splinter, the fractal that happens when one choice happens in somebody's life or an occurrence, and how they can, like, literally go. That's like my life story. But also, the prison system is filled with that as well. There's so many people that young and made a poor choice, and, you know, we'll maybe talk about that a little bit later. But how do we get to a place to where we can start mitigating those things without doing away with someone? Just totally, you know.
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A
Yeah.
- [27:37]
B
And I know there's more extreme cases of someone being accountable. I mean, it's been 17 years for me, and so there's no excuses. You know, I made my choice, and I'm paying my debt to society, and I take full accountability for that. But now I'm mentoring guys that are coming in my son's age, and it's like, man, you don't want to do that. You know, because when they come here, they think they got to do this to fit in. And Survive. And so how do we get to a place, you know, speaking to you as a leader, to where we can start seeing people and kind of getting in front of those things?
- [28:11]
D
I mean, I don't have any, you know, silver bullet, amazing answers on that. I don't. I don't know.
- [28:18]
B
Yeah.
- [28:19]
D
You know, part of the reason that I wanted to. To come here and part of my own journey and thinking about justice issues, accountability, closure for victims, like all those things. The thing that's most important to me is that. Or, I don't know, the most important. The thing that has driven me is that we can never talk about people who have done bad things, who have harmed people. Yeah. And ignore their own humanity. Yeah. And. And it's hard, right. If you don't interface with people, it's easy. If you don't come to see a prison, talk to people who have done things bad or have harmed people, it's easy to think about them as numbers on a book. It's easy to think about them as something other than human. It really is.
- [29:10]
B
No, it is. Absolutely.
- [29:11]
D
And I hear it. I hear it in our leaders in Olympia. Sometimes I hear it in the larger. I hear from the president. Right. He talks about people who are committing crimes as animals or less than human.
- [29:24]
B
Right.
- [29:27]
D
And once you lose that humanity, you lose. I think we lose something, you lose something. But we who have not done the crime also lose something. And I think as long as we continue to recognize the humanity of people, then there's an opportunity to change things. But I don't have any, you know, amazing answers about how we do it. But, you know, we think about. We need to think about accountability in a little different ways. You know, people who are making the laws think about accountability in terms of the number of years somebody gets or the type of punishment that they might otherwise be getting. I don't know if that's what accountability looks like.
- [30:10]
C
Right.
- [30:11]
D
Not always.
- [30:12]
B
Not always. Yeah.
- [30:14]
D
Accountability, ability. It looks like, I think, some acknowledgment. Sometimes that needs forgiveness. Sometimes it just needs, you know, total behavior change or correction. And that is. Looks different for different people. And so I just know we have to keep on leaning into the humanity of the people that we lock up and figure out a way to not be satisfied with the status quo. And also we need to look across the world, like our idea of punishment and accountability is so different than other countries.
- [30:55]
B
We've been having a lot of visitors from Norway coming up here, too. And that's.
- [30:59]
D
Yeah. And I, you know, and we also. I Try to. When I talk to people who are reluctant to have these sort of conversations, I also try to think about, like, what works, you know, even if you don't give a damn about people who are in our prison systems, I hope people are also just driven by what works. And I think there's just so much data and analysis and information that simply locking people up forever does not make us less safe or make us more safe. If that was the case, America would be the safest country in the world because we lock up everybody. And it's just not. That's not true, you know, and Norway is a good example of a country that rarely incarcerates people for a very long period of time. And it's one of the safest places to be in the world. And so there's something that they are doing is right. I'm not saying we need to do exactly that. And it's. Well, you can't always compare different countries with different, you know, dynamics. But we can't close ourselves off to that. There might be a better way to change our system.
- [32:14]
C
You spoke a little bit about people not having a voice and, you know, people that aren't heard. And we feel that way a lot of times in here. There's some things going on in legislation right now, a parole bill, gun enhancement bill. How do you feel about some of that stuff? Like, what's your stance and, and how, you know, what should we be doing differently?
- [32:38]
D
Probably we should be a lot of things, I think, differently. You know, I think the biggest overarching problem is that so much of our political or policy response is, is reactive to the moment rather than sort of the long term, data driven. What works, what doesn't work. You know, people see something bad in the news and they get fired up and they want to do an enhancement bill or whatever, rather than say, all right, what are the trends show, what's the data show? What are other examples of what's working and not. And so I think the biggest thing we need to do is step back and just continue to be driven by research and data rather than the emotion of the moment. I've been really interested in the whole parole debate because I don't necessarily have a strong view on it because I don't know what works and what doesn't work. I talked to a lot of justice reform advocates back when I worked for the governor who didn't want to see a parole system because they saw that as another way just keep hooks on people. So I don't know whether or not that's the best way to have justice system. I think we need to hold people, people accountable, we need to incarcerate certain people and we need to provide closure and healing for victims as much as possible. But we can't ignore the humanity of people. And also we can't not be open to relooking at sentences. I think one of the positive changes in recent years is the look back provisions that we've had in law to allow certain types of crimes and offenses be reevaluated because our idea of justice and punishment now is different.
- [34:18]
C
Right.
- [34:18]
D
And we need to continue to evolve. And I do think that, you know, our idea of prison as being, or jail as being the solution to these things is just not always the case. It's just not. You know, 10 plus years ago I co chaired an initiative, the Justice Reinvestment Initiative, working with nonprofit partners to look at our, you know, what's driving Washington's prison system. And at least back then it was our property crime offenses were driving it, right? Those are the people come in two years, cycle back out, come right back, you know, and they're continuing to drive our incarceration rates. And the solution that we came up with was actually less time in, in prison, but more supervision after you get out of prison. A lot of data that shows that work, that our idea that you keep enhancing people over and over to hire, it doesn't really work, at least for that type of offense. But what does work is accountability on the outside supervision. You know, that might be through a parole system or some, through something else. And we failed, we failed in that effort because we could not get enough politicians to say I'm okay with lessening prison because it was hard politically to do. But for me, the big lesson was we had all this data that showed pretty clearly that something different would actually make everybody more safe and we'd be less expensive. It was like a win, win, win all the way around for me. And we couldn't get over that hump. And so I, I don't, you know, one of the things that we need to do different is just not be so rigid ideas and for sure to evolve in that space.
- [36:02]
B
When I hear you speak about that, one of the words that pops up in my head is redemption. And I know for us as a podcast, a platform, when people listen to our podcast, not just incarcerated individuals, people all over the country, whether you work, you own a business, you have a platform, you have views that you are struggling with, you want to be better. We want to inspire people to redeem Themselves, have hope, do better. We want you to feel something. So what do you feel about. How do you feel about that redemption?
- [36:39]
D
I mean, I think it's one of the most important aspects of our. Of our legal system. Yeah. You know, when I was a criminal defense lawyer in the army, I represented people who had done bad things. You know, some serious, some minor, but people had done real crimes. I also recognized that most of the time, what they had been accused of or the narrative around them was not what the government was saying. Like, it was mostly accurate, but it wasn't 100% accurate. And part of my job was to tell their story and to bring more truth and accuracy to it. But I have seen the arcs of people be redeemed, be truly remorseful and accountable and be better people and be totally safe to be on the outside and be back in the community. You know, to me, that is redemption. And it, you know, there we need to find a way to allow more people the opportunity to be successful back in the community. Redemption also happens for people who are never going to leave this place, you
- [37:51]
B
know, and that's the truth.
- [37:52]
D
Yeah, I mean, I've. I've talked to many folks in. In our state prisons over the years who, you know, I didn't know them when they did their offense, but interacting with them now seem like very different people. And, you know, like, you guys know better than anybody, but, like, so many people came here as kids, man. You know, we came.
- [38:11]
B
I came. I was 21.
- [38:13]
D
You're a kid.
- [38:14]
B
Yeah.
- [38:14]
D
You know, like legally not, but mentally still growing, you know, and I'm. I'm 48. Who I am now is different than I was when I was 28.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah.
- [38:27]
D
You know, like, I hope my core is the same, but like, your maturity perspective, your prop, your problem solving, how you interface with people, it hopefully matures. And redemption, like that maturity helps with redemption, but I think it's also just a very individual thing. You know, some people that might take a few years. Some people, it might take a lifetime.
- [38:52]
C
Right.
- [38:52]
D
Because people struggle with being honest with themselves.
- [38:56]
E
Right.
- [38:56]
D
Or that is part of the. Part of the thing that we need to continue to value in our system.
- [39:02]
B
I do want to ask too, like, you mentioned something about the stir of a lot of the work that you do, too, in Olympia. Not to just suddenly switch gears, but I really want to know, what do you think about the. The buzz around restorative justice and things like that are going. Because we're heavily involved. I'm heavily involved in restorative practices, and I Think that's what the podcast encompasses to a degree, too, is some restorative. Not just restorative justice, but restoring humanity. Restoring. Restoring. How do you, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
- [39:32]
D
I think it's a really great evolution of our. Our thinking about the justice system. The even fact that we're having that. And restorative justice means different things to different people a little bit. But the fact that this is now part of the dialogue that we're having, you know, it used to be about punishment.
- [39:50]
C
Right.
- [39:50]
D
Like, that's what justice system, man, was. Crime and punishment. Lock them up. And the interesting thing about restorative justice is it's holistic, as I think about it. Right. It is about you all. It is about people that may have been harmed.
- [40:04]
B
Yeah.
- [40:05]
C
Right.
- [40:05]
D
It is about the community. And I think for me, at the end of the day, it's about what works to keep people safe. And that's everybody say. And so the fact that we are having this dialogue and trying to figure out what that looks like, I think is real positive.
- [40:18]
B
No, most definitely. This. This moment is restorative.
- [40:21]
C
Yeah.
- [40:22]
B
This is a full circle moment of restorative justice. I mean, you're my age. And the fact that we can sit and I can tell my son about it and talk to other people in our community out there about it and hear about the restorative process of sitting with a decision maker and maybe that can be them one day.
- [40:41]
C
And then what is going to be
- [40:42]
B
your approach to that?
- [40:43]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:44]
B
Dreaming that way now.
- [40:45]
D
I think a lot about who. Who the next people are, you know?
- [40:49]
B
Right.
- [40:50]
D
Like, I'm the first black statewide elected official outside of the court.
- [40:54]
C
Congratulations, man.
- [40:55]
D
Thank you.
- [40:56]
B
Congratulations. I didn't really want to touch that. The race, like, it's fair enough. I just, you know, I know that's always the drum for people of color. When we come into a space, it's like the first. The first, the first. And I didn't want to know.
- [41:09]
D
Definitely.
- [41:09]
B
Congratulations.
- [41:10]
D
But I, you know, I'm. I'm really curious about what the second and third. You know, like, somebody's got to be the first. But what does this mean for the legacy of people or people who can see themselves in these roles? You know, I. One of the most important quick moments in my life as a professional. I think Nina's probably heard me tell this story before, but when I work for the Department of Justice, you work for the federal government. Every building has a picture, like, in the office has a picture of the president and whatever cabinet head or Agency head you work for. So when I worked for the Department of Justice, it was always a picture of the President and the Attorney General was always on the wall, like in the office.
- [41:49]
C
Right?
- [41:50]
D
Yeah. And for years, like I got hired under George Bush and I forget who his Attorney General was at the time, but I remember the moment that they changed the pictures from George Bush and the AG to Barack Obama and Eric Holder. Black man, right?
- [42:07]
C
Yeah. That's cool, man.
- [42:09]
D
And it really, like, it literally stopped me in my tracks.
- [42:12]
E
Wow.
- [42:12]
D
You know, and I'm like, I'm a college law school, educated, successful, and I was just like, it blew me away to see people who I could think about talking to one day. Right. And I, I'm. Eric and I are, we're not friends, but we've interfaced a few times now and I've told him that story and you know, but it was important for me to like see a picture on the wall that felt like I can touch and feel and relate and be like that. And so I recognize that being in this role, there are people, your son, people in Pierce county, where I grew up.
- [42:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [42:47]
D
You know, like, I'm a. I went from Stillicum Cherrydale elementary to being the ag. You know, like I thought, I hope people can look for that, for inspiration. Not to be this, but to be what they want to be. Right. Yeah. So really you talked a little bit about it, but what are the things that you think more people in my positions or people making policy, like what are that. What are the ideas we're not thinking about or not doing or not? Well, good question.
- [43:17]
C
Well, we, you know, we talked about, you know, making mistakes and redemption and all that stuff. I, you know, I came in for the first time at 22 in a, a non violent offense, drug offense. And then I came back because of addiction at 27 and something that was considered violent. No one got hurt. You know, I tried to scare someone with a gun and I got 35 year sentence for that. 30 of it is in gun enhancements. I got three 10 year gun enhancements because it was my second time being caught with a gun. What I did was wrong and I should, you know, I definitely should have did time for it. I just don't think the way the system is set up it should be like that. Because I'm not the only person. I know people in here that have 30, 40, 50 years in gun enhancements. And you know, why is there not something we can do about that differently for not just me, but people that are over sentenced and over Enhanced, you know?
- [44:19]
D
Yeah. No, I mean, it's. I think the hard thing for policymakers is, or maybe it shouldn't be hard, but there are diminishing returns for length of incarceration. I think, you know, like there are, you know, whatever your crime is, the first five years, 10 years might make sense depending on whatever the offense is. The longer you go on, you. You stop to gain as much. I think, you know, there are. Opinions will vary. There are probably certain crimes where people think doesn't really matter the length you need to be in prison. But I think for so many crimes, and drug crimes in particular, like the. The diminishing returns. You know, when I was a federal prosecutor, federal. You got a lot of enhancements that you can throw on. Right. And oftentimes we could go into court and ask for basically life, you know, 60 years, whatever, on gun crime, based on weight, based on the enhancements. But my job as a prosecutor was to figure out what is the least amount that is necessary to keep people safe. I said this when I was campaigning and my opponent tried to make a big deal out of it. And I still can't understand why that's hard for people to understand, is that the idea should be what is the least amount of punishment that is necessary to keep people safe. Because if you go in and you ask for more than what is necessary, then you're not doing justice. Now, deciding what is necessary changes.
- [45:52]
C
Right, Your view.
- [45:53]
D
My view might be different, but I think the people who are the judges and the prosecutors that are leading this and the policymakers that are deciding what the boundaries are, should think about it, not at what. In what is the most that we could get, but what is the most that we need to get to keep people safe. And so anything more than that, to me, is not justice. Again, a lot of debate about what that number is. Yeah, but if I go into court and ask for something, then that I think is more than necessary, then all I'm doing is damage. And I don't, you know, and so I don't. I mean, I know a little bit about what you did, but, you know, like the idea that we would just stack all these things on top of each other and that is going to keep people safe more provide for redemption or accountability for you. It just. It doesn't work that way. Yeah, but it is easier to think it works that way when it's. You're just looking at the paper and the crime. And so I appreciate you sharing that.
- [46:57]
B
We definitely appreciate you for being here, man. And I'm Deeply inspired and I hope the listeners and the people that get a chance to hear this interview. And when you walk away from this space, I hope you felt like you were received well and it was a great day and time well spent.
- [47:14]
D
Yeah, well, I mean, I, I appreciate you guys accepting my self invitation with open arms. And, you know, I think it's. You guys should be proud of what you're doing. You should be proud of the work. I think it makes a difference and it's something that someone in my position needs to pay attention to. So thank you for having.
- [47:36]
C
Yeah, we definitely want you to come back again, man, and tell Mr. Ferguson he can come too.
- [47:41]
D
You know, I'll tell him. Yeah, we appreciate you, man. Yeah. Okay.
- [47:45]
B
So this is one of your hosts of Concrete Mama, the podcast D. Nelson
- [47:50]
C
Red here, Concrete mom of the podcast.
- [47:51]
B
And we was just hanging with Nick, the general, the Attorney General of Washington state. Thank you, man.
- [47:58]
D
Thank you, bro. Appreciate it, man.
- [48:00]
B
All right,
- [48:10]
E
That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bens is a producer and our editor, sound designer and graphic designer. Chris Gates and Nate Bowers are the audio engineers. Megan Sanchez is a producer and handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. I'm Craig Jackson, one of the newest voices of justice media coming at you from inside the prison walls in Walla Walla. The Washington State Penitentiary and Washington State DOC have made this project possible. For more information, check out our show notes and you can write to us with feedback and questions about the podcast. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.
- [49:27]
B
Sat.