BONUS - "All Roads Lead to Walla Walla"

Summary

Concrete Mama: The Podcast

BONUS - "All Roads Lead to Walla Walla"
Release Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts & Guests: Rachel Check, Anthony Covert, Red Campbell, Cambo, Vik Chopra, and others
Location: Washington State Penitentiary, Walla Walla

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Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode, the Concrete Mama team offers an intimate, unfiltered look at the origins and ongoing journey of the podcast and movement. This candid roundtable—featuring all-star creators and hosts like Anthony Covert, Rachel Check, Vic Chopra, and more—illuminates the synchronicities that brought them together, the personal and collective transformations underway, and the evolving mission to challenge the entrenched narratives about life inside America’s prisons. Through vivid recollections, raw emotions, and reflections on home, legacy, and brotherhood, listeners are offered a rare, honest perspective from both sides of the wall. The team also spotlights meaningful upcoming events and invites the wider community to join the movement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins: From Synchronicity to Purpose

• The group discusses the almost fateful, interwoven nature of how they all met—often through random-seeming meetings, shared missions, or even geographic connections to Walla Walla.
  • Vic Chopra recounts starting Unincarcerated Productions post-release, leading naturally to collaborating with Rachel Check, who coincidentally lived close by and shared a background in prison education.
  • Rachel: “I met Spencer at this event...the lights come on at the end and he looks at me and he’s like 'Rachel.' It was just so out of context.” [04:38]
  • Anthony: “That’s like a divine game of connect the dots. Where everything just seemed to line up.” [07:53]

2. Building the Unincarcerated Community

• The hosts explain how Unincarcerated evolved from film dreams and advocacy to media production out of necessity—pivoting during the pandemic from in-person to podcasts and then developing original content and working with other justice-focused organizations.
  • Vic: “I have actively been working in production since I got out...I eat, I live, I breathe production, film, television.” [07:00]
• The conversation regularly circles back to the theme of synchronicity, with everyone marveling at their connection to Walla Walla and how stories and collaborators have been naturally drawn to the cause.

3. Trust, Skepticism, and Breaking Down Barriers

• The complexities of trust between incarcerated and non-incarcerated collaborators are openly discussed, with several members recalling initial skepticism about outsiders’ motives.
  • Anthony: “I’m always skeptical of outside people...When you do time, you become skeptical of everybody.” [09:57]
  • Red: “Once I started talking to you guys and I seen how involved you were...my mind changed really quick.” [11:18]
  • Cambo: “It kind of aligns with all of us...just break that barrier of that false stigma on prison and shine a light on all of us.” [12:20]
• There’s a recurring recognition that genuine effort, presence, and shared purpose broke down those walls, leading to mutual respect and true partnership.

4. Healing, Coming Full Circle & Corrective Emotional Experience

• Several moments highlight what it means to return to spaces marked by trauma and reframe those experiences:
  • Vic describes the emotionally charged process of coming back to Walla Walla as a free man after years inside.
    • “There’s constant triggers...I remember getting off the chain bus...but now I’m here, too. That’s something I can’t wait for all y’all.” [18:30]
  • Rachel introduces the concept of a “corrective emotional experience.”
    • “If you experience something shitty, and then go back and do it again, but then it’s a good experience...that’s a corrective emotional experience.” [22:00]
  • Anthony: “Everywhere I go, I carry my brother’s story with me as well...Transformation isn’t enough—we don’t change, we heal.” [22:50]

5. Legacy, Growth, and Living Through Each Other

• Anthony, recently released, grapples openly with the responsibility and hope of being a ‘living legacy’—carrying not just his journey but those of his brothers still inside.
  • “My story continues on the outside...everybody’s going to be looking at you. They want to live through your successes and celebrate with you.” [38:17]
• The group uses metaphors of plants and growth to describe transformation:
  • “When plants grow, they reach upwards. I watered my roots and I’m reaching upwards, and that’s what I want to keep doing. I want to leave that behind for all these other guys.” [37:38]

6. The Meaning of Walla Walla: From Stigma to Source of Pride

• Local mythos and history are woven in, detailing the personal and collective journey to reclaim Walla Walla’s name as a source of pride, not just a site of shadows.
  • Rachel: “Growing up literally a couple miles from the prison, I would see this glow in the sky. At night...now with the podcast, it’s a source of pride.” [32:19]
  • Anthony: “When people hear Washington...guess what the other city they’re going to think about and talk about? It’s going to be Walla fucking Walla.” [34:01]
• There’s an acknowledgment of the prison’s impact on the community—families, employees, and the incarcerated population alike.

7. Looking Forward: Events, Art, and Continuing the Movement

• The group invites listeners to a major community celebration and virtual art auction, spotlighting the creative and emotional expression of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated artists.
  • Anthony: “Be prepared to have your socks blown off. We got some amazing art...this event...is a place to showcase who we are as storytellers, but also as individuals.” [40:06]
  • Special mention: Upcoming documentary preview and a panel featuring Ear Hustle’s Earlonne Woods. [41:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It was obviously kismet, fate, whatever you want to call it.” – Rachel [07:34]
• “No, for sure. It’s more than just telling our story at that point, right? Our story is the catalyst that I feel really opened up the world...” – Anthony [08:49]
• “Pancakes get cooked on both sides.” – Anthony (a recurring, inside-joke moment adopted by the group) [13:03]
• “Just because we’re human and we’re here and just our story, our stories matter, and we’re all taking part of that right now.” – Vic [39:01]
• “You give us something to believe in.” – Anthony [38:36]
• “We’re putting color to a black and white. It’s like getting a colored TV compared to having a black and white TV. You get to see it for what it is now.” – Anthony [35:00]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origins & Synchronicity: 03:12 – 07:53
• Building Unincarcerated & Evolution of Podcast: 06:24 – 08:49
• Trust Issues & Breaking Down Barriers: 09:35 – 12:20
• First Impressions Both Ways: 13:45 – 17:47
• Healing, Triggers, and Returning: 18:07 – 21:14
• Transformation & Legacy: 22:00 – 24:48 / 36:22 – 38:36
• Walla Walla’s Symbolism: 27:02 – 34:44
• Future Events & Art Auction: 39:53 – end

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode toggles between candid humor, tough honesty, and moments of deep vulnerability. The tone is consistently raw, communal, and compassionate—with ample room for emotion and reflection. Listeners feel invited into a family, not merely an audience, and are encouraged to reconsider preconceptions about life inside and outside the walls.

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Summary

This bonus episode of Concrete Mama takes listeners deep into the founding mythos, hard-won trust, and emotional landscape of a movement determined to rewrite the story of incarceration. With narration and memories from both sides of the prison walls, it’s a testament to the power of storytelling, healing, and transformation. As they prepare for community celebration and creative expression, the hosts invite everyone to join the journey and help bring color to the world’s black-and-white narratives about prisons and the people within them.

Transcript

[A]

So this is Rachel Check.

[B]

And this is Anthony Covert, one of your co hosts, coming live to you from Concrete Mama. What we're about to listen to is a recording that we did roughly six months to a year before I got out of prison. And it is such a revelation to hear where my mind was at at this time before I got out, and to hear it now that I'm out and really brings it all. 360 degrees for me to sit back and think, like, what was my life gonna be like six months to a year from then?

[A]

All right, let's listen.

[C]

This is Concrete Mama Unincarcerated Productions interview Take.

[B]

Well, this is your host, Anthony Covert for Concrete Mama. I'm here with Red Campbell, and we have some phenomenal guests today. You know, I would say that they are trailblazers. I would say that without them, we wouldn't be here today. Y' all want to introduce yourselves?

[C]

Yeah. I am Vic Chopra.

[A]

And I'm Rachel Check.

[B]

Well, thank you all for coming down and hanging out with us here at Concrete Mama.

[C]

Thank you for having us. It's so amazing to be here with you guys, to be in the studio recording, like, what a. Can we just take a moment to just, like, revel in, like, this experience of what we're doing right now and what we're creating? Like, this is pretty dope, gotta say. Definitely, Absolutely.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

This is definitely a powerful opportunity for us to be able to sit here in this room. We upstairs in the sustainable practice lab, paint shop, you know, also now dubbed the Concrete Mama podcast room.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So tell us where y' all from?

[C]

So I am currently living in Los Angeles, California. But originally I'm from the Seattle area, specifically Renton, and I'm actually from Walla.

[A]

Walla, where we are right now.

[B]

Hometown native.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and so we all from the Great Ever state. That's good to know. Right? Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Washington natives.

[A]

So this was a recording from a long time ago. And we've lost some people, haven't we?

[B]

Oh, yeah. You know, there's so many variables to what can happen while you're in prison. And in the midst of getting caught up in the life, you sometimes lose opportunities and things that are open for you to be a part of. And if you're not careful while being in prison, and you can lose your chance and your opportunity to continuously be able to be a part of that. And unfortunately, that's how we lost one of our hosts.

[A]

So you're gonna hear a voice that you might not recognize from the podcast. And that's okay. But this was somebody that was involved early on and then of course, the rest of the team.

[B]

So I'm kind of curious how. How is it that you and Rachel came to meet?

[C]

Yeah, so Spencer and I started unincarcerated. When we got out, we just. We coalesced on. On this idea of telling stories of our stories of others that have been incarcerated or formerly incarcerated, specifically around successful stories. Right. And I had always wanted to be a filmmaker. I hand wrote two screenplays when I was inside. And we just sort of hit the ground running. And then Rachel had actually met. We were in. Basically we were in need of an operations person. Right. Because Spencer and I were both working full time jobs and we had this dream and this vision of turning unincarcerated into like a full blown production house. But you need more than just two people, right. Especially two, like, amateurs. So Spencer had. We were looking for an operations person. Spencer had met Rachel Prior at Monroe. Right. Rachel.

[A]

Yeah. I actually. He brought me in to teach in his harness your hustle program. And so I Met Spencer In 2017, I want to say, and I didn't know that he'd gotten out. And so we were at this University of Washington event, and right after we got there, the lights went down and. And you were sitting there voting about the people, the speakers on your phone. And so we were. I'm side talking with this dude. I don't even know who it is, because that's what I do. And preaching. The lights come on at the end and he looks at me and he's like, rachel.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

And I was like, Spencer. It was just so out of context, you know, and so. And that happened to be the event that Vic and Spencer had been participating in. Like, what came up before that? So they were practice, or not practicing, but like planning the, you know, organization. And also there was some nonprofit that we were working with at the time. And so. So yeah, so that's when I met Vic. And we were after the races pretty darn quick.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, we hit off really quick.

[C]

Yeah, well, we hit it off. And then also too, because Rachel, we both lived. We lived a mile from each other, which is crazy. But then also Rachel was from Walla Walla, where I just gotten out of. Right. So connections. Yeah, a lot of synchronicities. It was. It was just crazy. And so it was just fit right from the start. And we both, you know, Rachel had done education in prison in San Quentin and then was actively working at Monroe. So, yeah, it was Just a, A no brainer. And we all just really believed in the mission of Unincarcerated. And you know, it's. It's. We've been going for six years and you know, there's so many highs and lows and like, yeah, you want to.

[A]

Talk about false starts?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, they happen all the time. But like, we, we are continuously getting better and you know, we have two projects, two film projects that we've been working on for a few, you know, several years that we still believe in that we're just still grinding to make happen. And sometimes these projects take years, but we fully, fully believe in them. And then we've just made so many strides with just different things that we've done. Whether it's Unincarcerated, the podcast, which we pivoted to. To do when Covid hit, right? Because we were just like, well, we can't really.

[A]

All our production stuff was shut down.

[C]

And we couldn't do stuff in person and. But we pivoted to doing Unincarcerated the podcast. And that was just sort of introducing the, the team and the mission and what we wanted to do and mine and Spencer's story and then Covet slowly wrapped up. And then we all just decided to invest in cinema, cinema gear. So like, we bought two cinema cameras and. And then we're like, okay, well now we can just start sort of shooting on our documentaries ourselves. So we did that. Then we pivoted to video production for specifically, like other justice related nonprofits and whatnot, and just did work for hire stuff, which we're still doing. And then, you know, I have actively been working in production since I got out. So not just with Unincarcerated, but with, I mean, I just, I eat, I live, I breathe production, film, television. That is just like, if I wasn't doing Unincarcerated, I would still be doing production.

[B]

How crazy is that? All the synchronicities of everything just matching together. You know, the opportunity for us to sit in that room, the opportunity with you and Spencer, like, I want to hear more about that. Like, how odd was that? How big was the auditorium you guys were in?

[A]

We were in an auditorium of probably 500 people. And of all the people I sat next to Spencer, like, what are the chances? And then to meet Vic and he did his time in Walla Walla. I'm from Walla Walla. Like, it was obviously kismet, fate, whatever you want to call it.

[B]

Yeah, that's like a divine game of connect the dots. Right. Where everything just seemed to line up. I really like that word synchronicities, because not often in life do we get the opportunity for things to just align. And the way that this podcast has just aligned with everybody coming together has really and truly blown my mind. And to see where we are now, what do you think about that?

[A]

It just keeps happening. Like, we've attracted so many people in the community to this project and, you know, stories that keep coming to us where we're like, oh my God, we have to tell that story, you know, so it's funny when people say, oh, well, are you gonna have anything else to talk about after season one? Are you kidding me? Like, we don't have. It's a treasure trove. Like, we don't. There's not enough time. Like, we can go for 10 seasons and we've got stories upon stories.

[B]

No, for sure. It's more than just telling our story at that point, Right. Our story is the catalyst that I feel really opened up the world to the life of the individuals that live inside of prison. And then to think about, again, the word synchronicities, right? How much of the things that we experience are like revelations for people in the community. Because even though they may not have been to prison or experienced prison, they still experience loss. They still experience the heaviness of not knowing what's to come next. And that's things that I'm learning about. Being out here now is like the day to day lifestyle that I lived in prison. That same thing is mirroring my life out here. The day to day lifestyle of out here in the real world.

[A]

I want to flip this on you all and ask when you first met us, what was your impression? Or even before, right? Like before we actually met, you know, what was your impression? What did you think, you know, once you did meet us and like to.

[C]

Now that's a good question, man.

[B]

That is a good question. You know, at first, I'm always skeptical of outside people, right? You know, I'm always skeptical of, you know, what is people's reasonings behind why they want to do things, right? What do they get out of it, right? So that's. And that comes from doing time, right? When you're sitting here and you do time, you become skeptical of everybody. And that's not a good thing necessarily. It's not necessarily a bad thing because it can protect you at the same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I came in very skeptical at first, right? And I was like, okay. You know, they told me, vic, done some time. You know, they Said Rachel's been involved with a lot of prison advocacy work and things like that. Well, I know a lot of people that's done some time and I know some people that does the prison advocacy work, you know, and I don't see a lot of those people in here helping anybody do anything, you know what I mean? And so I was like, okay, the fact that they're wanting to reach back, let me give them a chance. Let me put my skepticism to the side and see, okay, what is it that they're bringing to the table and let's see how serious they really are. And here I am in the room with y' all right now. It's pretty serious. You flew all the way down here to la. That's pretty serious, right? You're driving back and forth from Seattle. That's pretty serious, right? And so that just shows me the amount of dedication. So I was right to put my skepticism to the side and allow for some room for two amazing people to be a part of this process with.

[C]

I think I didn't.

[E]

I didn't really think at first when we started this that it was actually going to happen. And I felt like when I was looking around the room, I kind of felt like everybody else was the same way. And then once I started talking to you guys and I seen how involved you guys were in it and like, how stoked you were about what we were doing, my mind changed really quick. So I. I feel like I picked up pretty fast that you guys were good. Like, you guys were good ass people and I wanted to be around you guys. So, yeah, I had a little, you know, I didn't know about you at first. Now, now I know what's up. Yeah, I know what's going on.

[D]

Yes. So for me, I was actually pretty excited. I heard about both you guys already from, like, students from the Whitman College and like, other people, you know, and I heard that you did, like prison advocacy work, you know, and you do, you were formerly incarcerated. So I kind of had a little bit of information about you guys. But then like Anthony says, you know, I was a little skeptical. So, like, I remember going back to the cell and just kind of like thinking about it when these guys, Demor, Nelson, Anthony Cover told me about it. And I was like, oh, man. Like he was saying, like, what are you getting out of this? You know? But then like, really getting to talk to you guys over the Zoom calls, talking to other people about you guys. It was really cool getting to know you guys and finally meeting you guys or Vic in person now. I've already met Rachel a few times now, and talking to you guys and seeing how genuine you guys are and, like, your objective in all this, you know, and I just feel like it kind of aligns with all of us, you know, and that you guys are really big pushers for what we want to achieve over here and, like, bring the awareness out there and, like, just break that barrier of that false stigma on prison and shine a light on all of us and to. To the world out there, you know, and educate them.

[B]

So, you know, pancakes get cooked on both sides. So I want to flip this.

[A]

How have I lived on the earth this long and never heard that?

[D]

I've never heard that either.

[C]

Never heard that. That is good.

[B]

I'm gonna. You.

[C]

I'm gonna use that now.

[A]

I'm borrowing that. Right.

[B]

Coins here on concrete.

[C]

Hell, yeah. Anthony Covert, Concrete mama. Yeah. Pancakes get cooked on both. I'll make a meme about that. I want just a picture of Anthony, though. Like. Like, with a grip.

[B]

With a.

[C]

With a flipper. Yeah. You go first, Rachel.

[A]

What was my first impression? Well, I guess my first impression was because we were on a zoom call and I couldn't see everybody. I was, like, seeing parts of the people and stuff, and I was like, I really want to, like, have a chance to, like, talk to each one of you one on one and get to know you, which it's happened over time. But I was impatient, you know what I mean? Like, we had already been working on. Working on things for months, and I, you know, I just was like, let's go. You know, I really wanted to get to know each one of you, and so I feel like we're at that point now. You know, I'm. I'm. There's always more layers of the onion to peel, but I'm just really excited that, like, you know, you're getting out soon. It's going to be a trip, right? And just thinking about, like, you know, my. I think my heart gets swollen up when I think about you being gone and you guys being still here, you know, and, like, what that feeling is going to be like. And as a producer, I'm thinking about. I want to elicit the emotion, but as a human, I want to be loving and, you know, understanding of, like, how that's going to feel. So I've been thinking a lot about the sort of ethics of that. That's really what's been on my mind lately.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I had met Demar last year when I came in to to speak. So I had a general idea of who he was. Like, we just. We had a very brief conversation, and then I'd heard your name, Anthony, too. But like, I don't know. I mean, I guess so. I mean, being from the same community, like, I was a little skeptical, I'm not gonna lie. I was like, all right, well, we'll see how these guys do. You know what I mean? Like, you say you want to start a podcast, but, like, are you gonna put in the work? You know, like, do you have what it takes? Like, and I'm like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna push these guys. I'm gonna see, like, what they can do, how. How dedicated they are. And, you know, when we got on that first Zoom or teams meeting, I was just like, okay, all right, co get it. I was really impressed with your ideas, with your vision. Like, I mean, you guys got it. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't like we had to do a lot. We hadn't. Didn't have to do any handholding. It was just like, okay, yeah, I mean, giving you guys pointers and tips or like, maybe guiding you a little bit, but, like, you had a very clear vision. So I was just so stoked.

[A]

We were super impressed.

[C]

Yeah, I was super impressed. I was really stoked. I was like, okay, cool. Like, these guys get it. Like, we're going to make something. Because my whole vision for this is like, I want us to make something great. I don't want it to just get lost in the mix. I don't want to have this opportunity and then put in all this work and then just have it be just, you know, passed over or it's like just another podcast, right? And I really think that we are all making something really, really special, really great. And that is a testament to all of you. So, like, I am in awe of all of you. I am honored to be sitting here. I am blessed to be sitting here, you know, with you, cuz, like, I'm an emotional guy, you guys. Okay? Like, it's. It's really, like, this is really dope. It's really sick to be here, you know? And like, this is. I never thought that. Like, I never thought. Cuz I was hella skeptical. I'm not going to lie. I was super skeptical. Rachel knows I've gone off on phone calls with just me, her and Liz, like, on Zooms where I'm like, I've just gone off because I'm like, I don't know, it just. It's it can bring up some trauma, you know, like working with doc and just other of just, you know, when you go from being a resident to like a free person and coming back in and wanting to work with. With the system, you know. So like, I had to. I had to do a lot of work on myself too, to just like put that aside and just be patient, to be like, okay, like, we just have to like stay focused on what we want to do with these guys. Because, like, for me, it's. It's about you, you know, like it's about you.

[E]

Thank you, bro.

[C]

You know, like, I was like, what? How do we like, do this? And then like when we weren't getting opportunities to meet you guys yet or whatever, I just, I was like, okay, like, just be patient. Just be patient. And you know, so it's really special to be here today with you. Just, you know, I just want to let you know and I'm really impressed with all of you and I think it's going to be really, really dope, so.

[B]

Absolutely, man. I think it's powerful. You know, it can be a lot coming back into a place that does carry trauma.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm only imagining. I'm figuring I'm have to lean on you a lot when I come back.

[C]

I got.

[B]

We experience a lot of things being in here, right? And a lot of things. And you bring all those things. Come waving back. I can only imagine. Come waving back.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Every time you step through these, there's.

[C]

Little triggers, you know, there's little triggers everywhere I look. You know what I mean? Like, and that's. And I'm fine. Like, I'm good. Like I'm. I'm so happy to be here. But it is just. There is, there's constant triggers. Like I think about getting off the chain bus, right? And you come into the west complex side, right? I remember I did. And then like you walk, I can't remember, but you're in the west complex and somehow they take you shackled through and then you go to the receiving in the east complex and like coming down, walking through this breezeway, I just like went back there. In my head, I was like, you know, and I saw that I saw a guy getting transported, right. I saw him in his orange jump shoot and shackles. And it just brought me back there of like being just, you know, like, like that whole, that whole thing. So, yeah, it's like there's. There's just reminders all the time, but it's also like, I'm so grateful for that like, it's such a beautiful reminder because I went through that, and now, like, I'm here, too, right? And, like, I. That's something that I can't wait for all of y', all, because it will happen however long it takes. Like, you know that that will happen. And. And it's. It's a. It's a beautiful feeling, too. You know what I mean? But, yeah, it's a. It's a trip. I'm not going to lie. Because I've gone into other prisons, too. I've gone into Monroe to volunteer. Pelican Bay in California, which is a supermax, and that was crazy. And then Globe, the prison in Globe, Arizona, we went into Purdy. We shot footage. We did a whole film project at Purdy back in November or October.

[A]

Did you ever go to Soledad with me?

[C]

Didn't go to Soledad, no. So, you know, I've been in other prisons, but, like, coming back into Walla Walla, it just hits different because I lived here for, you know, years. You know what I mean?

[B]

So.

[C]

But it's also just. That makes it so much more special for me to. To just, you know, to be here, like. And I don't know, like, I'm gonna keep. I keep coming back, you know, it's like. I don't know. Like, maybe I'm. I'm a masochist. I don't know. That's why I do CrossFit. You know, I like being tortured, apparently. But, no, I'm gonna keep coming back as long as they keep letting me in.

[B]

Wow. To hear Vic talk about his trauma, I think that says a lot about his character. You have to believe in something to experience trauma again, to be able to come back inside of a place where you were captive, you weren't allowed to leave, but to be able to now come in under your own volition, knowing that you're going to leave and still having that sense of man. This was a place I was in, and I could not leave, wasn't allowed to leave. I was able to walk a hundred yards to each place where I was going to. And now walking that same walk, but knowing that you get to go home at the end of the day, that's huge. And I'm sad that Vic's not here with us right now, because I would like to hear more about. Has it gotten easier for you that you keep coming back? The more that you're coming back, seeing that there is hope in the people that you've come to help and not only the people that you've come to help. But who else is being affected by the work that you're doing or were willing to do to come back and face those traumas? How transformative is that for you to take. Take ownership of something that you once experienced that was so daunting in your life, to come back in and be like, you know what? Yes, I experienced this thing, but there are more people that are still experiencing it, and I'm here to help them.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's transformational. And I've seen the evolution with Vic as we go into not just Walla Walla, but other prisons. And I can't speak for him. I think that it's gotten easier, but I don't know. But I also think that it's, like, cathartic. You know, there's this expression that I learned a long time ago in college about a corrective emotional experience, and it's like, if you experience something shitty, and then you go back and do it again, but then it's a good experience, that's a corrective emotional experience. And I feel like that's probably true. And I wonder also for you, like, even though you haven't been able to go back in yet, being part of the podcast from the outside and, like, obviously still being in contact with Demar, and, like, we've got this big event coming up, and what has that been like for you over the past. Past 15 months since you've been out?

[B]

You know, it has been very transformative for me as well, because I still get to be connected. I'm connected in such a way that it's transformative for me because not only do I get to carry my story out in this world and get to share with people, but everywhere I go, I carry my brother's story with me as well. I carry Demar's story with me. I share his story everywhere I go with people that I meet, I'm like, yeah. They're like, oh, man, the podcast is amazing. And just know that I was there to experience it firsthand with my brothers. But now I'm out here, they're still experiencing it, but they're experiencing it in a different way. You really get to live that whole thing. We always want to be able to live vicariously through others, but now my brothers get the opportunity to live vicariously through me and through my experience. You know, when my Baby's Home episode came out, I got to hear about all the reflection that other people had. If he can do it, I can do it. That changes how you look at prison. That changes how you do your time. That changes how you see your family. That changes how you connect with people. Transformation isn't enough. You know, we say we don't change, we heal. Hearing someone's story, success story is. It changed me hearing people getting out when I was in prison and how good they were doing. I think about the Anthony Williams, the loonies, the Leonard Norlings, all these people that got out and are really out here struggling, thriving, and now I'm one of them.

[A]

That's so cool. I also think it's the people in the community hearing the stories of people inside, and not just the community in Walla Walla, but across the country, across the globe, because they're actually getting to feel their own set of emotions about that transformation, about that evolution. Cause they're experiencing it, hopefully for themselves in their own lives.

[B]

I think that prison does something to you when you get to see the silver lining of it, right? It's hard to see a silver lining of prison because there's people with life sentences, 30, 40, 50, 100 years. They're like, I'm never going home. But I watch people with life sentences go home. Life sentences don't mean nothing no more. People have a chance to come home. And I look forward to hearing the next success story after mine.

[E]

How did you come across this podcast, and how did you guys find out about it, or the idea of it, I should say?

[C]

Yeah, well, the gentleman that approached us about doing this is actually sitting here in the room with us, Mr. Irish Clark. So I have two podcasts that I've worked on. One is with Unincarcerated, called Unincarcerated, the podcast. And then another one is called South Asian Boys with my Cousin, which I produced. And we actually sold to a platform, right. That actually paid my bills for. For several months. So I'm quite proud of that. Right. And so I was invited to be the keynote speaker last May here. And in my speech, I talk about the work that I do, which included podcasts. And so, you know, it. I, like I said, I always had a vision of wanting to come back and do media work in the prison with you guys. And so after my speech, Irish walks up to me and is like, hey, we have been wanting to do a podcast here. We kind of had a false start. Would you. Is this some. Is this something you'd be interested in doing with us? And I was like, yes.

[A]

It was all I could do not to bear him.

[C]

I know. I was like, we got. We got so excited after. We were like, okay, wait, calm down, calm down. Like, we need to, like, one step at a time, because we.

[B]

Real cool.

[C]

Yeah, well, yeah, we know, like. And I mean, even still, we're like, finalizing things on this too. And, you know, like, I mean, I have a good feeling, but we're like, let's get the processes procedures in place, do this the right way. We know Doc can take a while, but, yeah, Irish approached us about doing it and we were, like, ready to go. Like, okay, what do we need to do? How do we plan this out? What are the steps we need to take to do it the right way?

[A]

And I would say this is one in the lineup of synchronicities. You know, there was a synchronicity of Spencer bringing me in and then us meeting in this random auditorium and sitting next to each other in an auditorium of 350 seats. What are the chances, right? And then me meeting Vic, finding out he did his time here, me being from here, and then all of the other things that have happened along the way, people that we've attracted to, the projects that we've worked on, all of whom, by the way, have some weird connection to Walla Walla. I'm telling you, there's like a vortex here. I don't know what it meant to.

[C]

Be to Walla Walla.

[B]

And being a Walla Walla native, you know, what does it mean to be able to help bring something like this to a penitentiary? That you've seen growing up, right? You've seen the outside, the outside workings of it. What does it mean to you?

[A]

Yeah, it's my life purpose. So even though it's a small town, almost everyone that I meet in the world has a connection to Walla Walla. They've either heard of it because it's such a unique name, or they have some history here. There's a number of colleges. There's a lot of people that, you know, have had a background here. And so there's always been something for me, obviously I'm biased cause I'm from here, but about this town and such an instrumental part of it is the prison. It makes a big difference in the culture of how people grow up here. People that are employed here, folks that.

[D]

Have.

[A]

History with the institution for different reasons. And so for me, this is a full circle moment. And I remember when I first met Vic and when we were talking about, oh, we should go to Walla Walla, and he's like, I've never been to. And I was like, what?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I honestly, I'd Never been to Walla Walla. Besides on a prison bus. Right. Besides on the chain bus. In shackles. So tell.

[A]

Remember what you saw? All you could see from the prison was what Vineyards.

[C]

Like, just like, you know, I remember seeing vineyards. I can't remember which one.

[E]

On the way here.

[C]

On the way here. Right. And you kind of like, see it through the slats because you can't really see through the windows of the chain bus. But you're like, oh, whoa. And.

[E]

And they'll have wine when I get there.

[C]

Yeah, that was maybe my thought before on the way.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But, you know, bummer. But no, I. And I remember, too, I was like, I will never effing go to Walla Walla after I get out. Like, no, no. And Rachel was really, I don't know, like, kind of instrumental in. In. In bringing me here for the first time or bringing me back and kind of showing me a different side of the. Of what the memories I had made. And it really flipped the script on in my mind of what Walla Walla is. And we've been actively coming out here for years. Like, I think the first time we came out was 20. 20 or 20.

[A]

It was before the pandemic was before.

[C]

I have to look at those pictures and see. But anyway, like, we came out because obviously she's from here. And then I took pictures over out on 13th Street. I just, like, took some. I just posed in front of the prison, you know, and I was just like, you know, just like, hey, I'm a free man now. I really wanted those pictures. And then. And we're just actively been, you know, networking here in the community, making inroads with Whitman College and, you know, now obviously here with wsp. But it always been, it's weird to say my dream, but yeah, it's been my dream to, like, come back in and work with you guys here in the prison. From a media standpoint, really, anyway, anyway, but like, specifically from a media standpoint would have been like, amazing to bring my, you know, knowledge and expertise in storytelling in. In. In filmmaking or even podcasting, screenwriting, you know, so being here right now, it's honestly like a dream come true.

[B]

You know, what. What I find most curious, right. When I came to Walla walla, I was 18 years old and. And I grew up here. I grew up in Walla Walla, I can say that. But my growing up in Walla Walla was a lot different than every other 18 year old that was lived in Walla Walla, because as people were living and Experiencing and learning and finding themselves. In the city, I am doing the same thing, but in prison, I'm learning to find who am I, what are my likes, what are my interests are, what a very limited pool of things to choose from. But I found myself. It's odd to say that you found yourself in a place that is deemed like this dark, very ominous environment, but yet I found myself. And I think of how many other people in prison found themselves, and I would think about the other 18, 19, 20 year olds that are out in Walla Walla finding themselves and not knowing that we're on the same journey in the same city, but in two different environments. It's crazy to me. So I'm just curious to know what was it like growing up in the city of Walla Walla and. Or should I say this small town and just being a local?

[A]

You know, it's interesting because there was always kind of a cloud over the prison. You know, we had a lot of friends whose parents worked at the prison or, you know, we knew not to drive down certain roads because they'd come out and they'd be like, nope, you don't get to come down here. You know, that kind of stuff. And at night, there's not a lot of light pollution, except for the prison. So growing up literally a couple miles from the prison, I would see this glow in the sky, in the night sky, and I would go to bed to that. And out on the highway, back in the day, they used to have signs that said, don't pick up hitchhikers. And so there was a lot of lore and mythology and like, oh, somebody might escape and what happens and all this stuff. And that was kind of this. Yeah, it was like a weird cloud. And now I feel like with the podcast, it's a source of pride. And I'm not saying that, you know, everything's perfect, obviously. You know, there's a lot of hardship and challenges, I think, for not just the incarcerated population, obviously, but also for the people that work there. You know, the average lifespan of somebody who works in prison is 59 and a half years. 59 and a half years. And with a lot of the stuff that's going on now with Washington Way and trying to make things better, it's for the incarcerated population, and it's also for the people that work there. And so I think as this podcast has become such a great source of pride, it gives us an opening to have conversations like you and I are having right now.

[B]

Absolutely. You know, I think about it when people hear Washington. What is the first town or city that they think of?

[A]

Seattle.

[B]

Right. How cool is it now that we've done this podcast? And so when people hear Washington, guess what? The other city they're going to think about and talk about. It's going to be Walla fucking Walla.

[A]

Yeah, well, Walla Walla's always had a. There's a storied history here. It's one of the oldest towns in the West. It was here before Washington was a state, when it was the Oregon Territory. And the prison actually was originally a work camp, before there were any prisons. People who, you know, did bad things got sent to the work camp, and that's what the grounds of the prison are built on.

[B]

See that? That right there just goes to show how powerful a small town can be. Right. We have this thing. I'm from Yakima, Washington. We say small town, big connections. You know, look at where we're drawing from now with this podcast. We're drawing from people all over the world. They're knowing about this little town called Walla Walla and the residents that reside here. And I'm not just talking about the residents outside the walls. I'm talking about the residents within them. Because not only are people getting to learn about the people of the town of Walla Walla, but they're getting to hear the stories of the people that are forgot about in Walla Walla, that aren't seen in Walla Walla, that are kind of tucked away. And, you know, when you're tucked away, you don't think about, like, what's going on outside of the walls, because you're so transfixed on what's happening inside. And so when you get to see people like yourself and Vic and all these other people that are now coming in. Don, that are coming in to support the incarcerated individuals that are sitting in this ominous place. Right. We're putting color to a black and white. It's like getting a colored TV compared to having a black and white tv. You get to see it for what it is now.

[A]

And shout out to Don Roth for teaching the screenwriting class as we grow our media lab. Yeah, we're pretty excited that they are putting together a short film. So, looking forward to the future.

[B]

I think one of the biggest things for me is my hope is that I'm able to leave some type of legacy, you know, stepping out of this place. My brother Demar is not here today. He's out there enjoying his visit with his family, with his son, you know, so I know they're having a great visit, you know, And I know he's gonna keep. Keep the car going, you know, I know these guys are gonna keep the car going. I know y'. All. You know what I'm saying? All my skepticism has been crushed. Yes.

[C]

We did it.

[B]

We did it. It's a. It's a phenomenal thing to know that we've created this family. You know, I like using the word community, but I like using the word family for things that mean more important, that are more important to me, you know, So I feel like we created this family. Yes, Clark, you're a part of that family. You're locked in with us, man. But leave just something to show that, you know, regardless of if you've done enough time or if you're old enough or, you know, I've heard a lot of these things since I've been down. Just, oh, you're too young to. To go through this process or you haven't done enough time to go through this process or you have. Evolution doesn't have really no time, you know, it's how bad you want it, you know, And I wanted it, you know, I wanted to change. I wanted to do something different. I wanted to grow, you know, So I watered my plan every day, man. You know, I made sure that that thing stayed nutrients. I washed the leaves. I did everything I could, man, to make sure that I kept. And, you know, when plants grow, they reach upwards, and that's what I'm doing. You know, I'm watering my roots and I'm reaching upwards, and that's what I want to keep doing. I want to leave that behind for all these other guys, you know, I want to make sure I'm leaving behind something that can help someone else grow, and I want to make sure I'm running to something that's going to keep me growing.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, and that's. That's powerful for me, you know, and I'm excited, You know, I'm excited to see what the world has in store. I'm excited to see what y' all have in store. We get to hear it from the outside. You know, I'm gonna be tuned in.

[C]

I'm gonna be one of the subscribers.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[C]

You're gonna be part of it. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Goodness.

[A]

Well, you are. You know, they talk about a living legacy. You're a living legacy, right? Like, your story continues on the outside, because everybody's got no pressure. Everybody's going to be looking at you Going, what's he doing?

[C]

How's he doing it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, they want to live through your successes and celebrate with you and. Absolutely, you know, all of it.

[B]

Yeah, I'm excited, you know, and I know I'm extremely appreciative of all the work that you all put into this, you know, believing in us, you know, giving us something to believe in.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, coming on here, sharing our life stories, speaking, you know, getting down to brass tacks, you know, I mean, peeling back layers of that onion, you know, flipping pancakes.

[C]

Well, I think. I think it's important to realize that, like, our stories matter. Everybody's stories matter. Like yours, your stories matter, and people get the opportunity. Just know that you were here. Like, we're here, you know, like, we're not something to be passed over or just, you know, forgotten. Right. We're not just some forgotten souls that, like, came to this place and did nothing and don't deserve, you know, all the respect and the recognition that we are entitled to. Like, we are entitled to all of it. Just because we're human and we're here and just our story, our stories matter, and we're all taking part of that right now, you know, to make sure that people know that we're here.

[A]

That wraps another episode in between seasons of Concrete Mama, the podcast. What you can look forward to is our awesome event coming up and the virtual art auction. Anthony, tell us about it.

[B]

Be prepared to have your socks blown off. We got some amazing art from myself, from other brothers from the inside that are going to be there to just show how did we cope while we were in there. You know, there's a lot of talent in there. And this event is not only a place to showcase who we are as storytellers, but who we are as individuals and what we do in our spare time to express through the media, of acrylics, through speaking, through whatever may have you prepare yourself for a roller coaster ride of emotions. When you leave, you're going to feel a sense of belonging. You have found yourself with a group of people that get it. And we just hope that when you leave, not only that you get it, but you're willing to do something about the things that you've heard and seen and just be prepared to grow from this. And we're willing to grow with you.

[A]

Concrete Mama. We out.

[B]

We out.

[A]

Hey, Concrete Mama fam. If you haven't been following us on our social media, definitely check out our Facebook and Instagram. At Unincarcerated Productions. We've been promoting our huge concrete Mama community celebration in Walla Walla, Washington, happening September 20th at Foundry Vineyards. It will be an amazing night to celebrate all of the success with season one. It's gonna be filled with good people, food, live music, and an art auction. And the art's been created both inside the penitentiary and by some justice impacted folks on the outside. We will also be premiering a clip of the upcoming documentary about the making of the media lab at the Washington State Penitentiary and have a panel discussion with our host, plus a very special guest, the one and only Earlonne woods, host of the original prison podcast, Ear Hustle. There are still a few tickets left and we'd love to have you join us. You can sign up on our [e-mail] or through the link in our bio on Instagram. And if you can't come in person, that's totally okay. We understand. We'll be going to be opening up the art auction online two weeks prior to the event. So keep an eye on our social media. You can still participate that way.