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- [00:00]
Vic Chopra
This program contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised. Welcome to Concrete, the podcast coming to you from the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla, Washington. I'm Vic Chopra, co founder of Unincarcerated Productions and your guide on this journey. We're opening the gate and taking listeners inside the penitentiary walls, which were first built all the way back in 1886, three years before Washington was even a state. Because of its nearly 150 year history, Washington state Penitentiary has earned a reputation for being dangerous and violent, most likely due to a very famous experiment in the 1970s where power was handed over to the prisoners for self governance. It was during this time that the prison earned the name Concrete Mama. When a book by the same name was published documenting life inside during this era, we wanted to pick up where the book left off, bringing listeners inside and telling the stories of what life is like now. I was incarcerated at this institution for five years and was released in 2018. You know, I turned what many believe is the worst thing that could ever happen to you into the best thing that could happen. I got sober and rebuilt myself mentally, physically and spiritually. And I now go back into this place where I did my healing to work with the guys inside. You know, it's important to me to not only share my story of transformation, to inspire my incarcerated brothers and show them that they can do the same thing, but to also come back and make it known that they are not forgotten. We start in our premiere episode with the relationships we form while doing time and the pain and loss we feel when they end. Over the five years I was incarcerated, I experienced the sting of losing deep, meaningful relationships over and over again as my friends got released and I stayed behind to grieve their physical presence in my life right now. Our other three hosts who are currently incarcerated at the penitentiary, Demar, Red and Cambo, are experiencing the loss of our fourth Concrete Mama host, Anthony, who was released over the summer on Clemency. More on Anthony later. But now let's hear from Demar.
- [02:29]
Demar Nelson
Thanks, Vic. This is Damar Nelson, one of your hosts on this journey through the world of Concrete Mama. You may be experiencing heaviness in your own life right now, or grief and loss, or maybe it's feeling overwhelmed with the demands from the world, which is constantly changing. I know we all experience that. I think we all know what that feels like, what it means to carry that. You know, things can feel very chaotic for everyone. It feels like you're constantly, you know, on the Verge of everything just falling apart. And whether you're out there in the free world or sitting listening to this in the cell or on the tier, I can relate to that. Just like the world is full of sudden changes, so is prison. And learning to adjust to changes is often difficult for all of us. I thought this would be a great opportunity to share the story of me and my brother Anthony. You know, our friendship was the anchor that held a lot of stuff together for us While we were both in here for years. We formed a bond as brothers that was really unbreakable. What's crazy is I think people on the outs have some misconceptions about the relationships that people form while doing prison time. Prison isn't just about scary people walking around, waiting to get into fights and, you know, get into violence. That's not what it's all about. People create solid, meaningful relationships behind these walls. We support each other through the trauma of doing time. And Anthony, you know, he was my brother and myself. You know, one of the things that really stood out to me when I first met Anthony was how he treated people. You know, I often watch how other people deal with other people and interactions. That's really huge for me because a lot of people in prison don't know what it means to value, you know, respect in relationships. And Anthony treated everybody like he seen them. You know, it was very respectful. You know, he had a light about him, an energy about it. Also his drive, that's something that we share. Anthony had a drive to grow, to learn, to do better. And on my path to doing better and growing and learning, I was like, man, this is somebody I can grow with. And also my trust. You know, often in prison, you know, it's hard to trust people, Especially when you're in a position to actually grow and make changes, or you're in a position with administration where you're doing things and they're looking for someone you can trust. I was able to trust Anthony, and honestly, since he's been gone and he's not my celly anymore, I've been struggling to actually find a celly that I can trust that won't put me in compromising situations that can ruin my opportunities. And he had his own identity. You know, Anthony was real unique in the way that he identified with people himself. He just had his own autonomy. You know, he was real independent, you know, just his own uniqueness. I liked that about him. It made me respect him. Because in prison, a lot of people are afraid to be themselves. That's just something that People deal with in here. However, you know, Anthony was released a few months ago, and with all the months of preparing for it, I still wasn't prepared for the reality of my brother's absence. So I recorded my thoughts on the first day without him. I want to share those with you now. My boy. D, man, you gone, Brody? Hey, man, I just got back from work. You know, it was. It was kind of different today, you know, just in terms of you. You being gone, man. You know, it's about 302 now, you know, just getting in. I'm in the cell right now, man. Just got in, man. Walked in, you know, Josh drove me back from work, you know, and you could. It was interesting, too, bro, because, you know, I could feel that your energy, man, was missing, bro. Me and Daniel went up to the shop, you know, man, rearrange, start cleaning and just doing stuff, man. And you could tell people was, you know, leaning on each other, man, because, you know, you was. You're a great spirit, man. Big spirit, man. Full of love, man. So you can see that everybody's just looking at me. What's up, Nathan? I'm like, what's up, man? You know, they're like, man, how you feel? I'm like, I'm good. So it was a lot of support, you know what I'm saying, on that end. And, you know, Reyes was kind of laid back. Officer Reyes, you know what I'm saying? You know, I told him, I said, you got me now. You know what I'm saying? We. We got each other, man. You know what I'm saying? You're gonna see him out there soon. Hey, it's crazy, because soon as I got back to the cell, I got the pictures of you out front, you know, in front of the prison. In front, man. He was in front, man. You know. You know, you was in it. Now you in front, you outside of it, man. So it's a lot of blessings, man, just thinking about that, you know, just getting a full visual of your journey and miss you, man. You already know what's up. You know, I'm in the room cleaning up right now. You know, I'm saying, I'm about to. You know how I do it. I'm about to turn on these cuts and clean up a little bit and do what we do. We did some IEP stuff today up at work, and then I went in there, I worked out. Then I seen. I was chopping it with red a little bit. And, you know, I'm saying, people. People were really just kind of like, you could see, like, you know, we do this time together, bro, and people kind of like, they lean on one another, man. So the fact that you're gone, I can see that people are like, man, you know, that energy, being able to plug into that individual is tough.
- [08:39]
Steven (Red)
That.
- [08:39]
Demar Nelson
You know, the day room's buzzing right now. You know, Cats is coming back from the yard and trying to figure some things out. You know, I'm looking in the day room right now as we speak, you know, to normal. The normal ebb and flow. Paco. Paco's out here right now. You know, Paco is. He's getting some stuff, man. You know, going to somebody's door, laughing, smiling, you know, so people still keeping that resilience spirit, man, despite it all, you know, and it feels good, you know what I'm saying? It feels good to be able to, you know, just look around me, man, and then not only I just look back, you know, look back and just think about it, you know, think about what my journey is going to be, moving forward, you know, you being out there in the world, you know, how you'll be still a part of my life, you know, I'm grateful for that, man. You know, because people move on in life, you know, I'm strong, bro. You know what I'm saying? I'm strong. But, yeah, it's day one. It's gonna be one of those nights, man, a lot of pondering, you know, your energy, you know, how when people leave, you know, you. We used to talk about people that left. You think about that, man, you know, you think about them and then you gotta restructure. Gotta restructure your movements, your time, my schedule, a lot worked around yours and how you did things. And so I'm gonna be thinking throughout the day, man, you know, just thinking about my life, my journey, man, how I'm gonna get home to my family, you know, being inspired, you know, by that. Being inspired by, you know, the. The support that you had, being inspired by the love that you gave and, you know, so on and so forth. And now, you know, it's crazy because the work continues. It don't stop. You know, you gonna be out there, I'm gonna be in here, and we're gonna continue to do what we do, man. You know what I'm saying? Working together, you know, I feel like I got a community late liaison now, though, man. It's gonna be different because we know each other so well, you know. Hold on, hold on, man. They. Hold on, man. They. They here to check on Me see what's going on. Oh, you know, thinking about my boy, you know, he left. I got some pictures, you know. You seen him? Huh? You seen. I got some pictures for the podcast, too, you know, for the Concrete Mama podcast, man. I'm just detailing what it's like. That's a part of the podcast, man. Remember when you first came into the prison? We talked about that, detailing what it's like without him now. And so we're still continuing the journey.
- [11:16]
Vic Chopra
It's going to be hard out there.
- [11:17]
Cambo
You know, because it's going to be different.
- [11:20]
Vic Chopra
Last one coming to you, Jim, is clear.
- [11:22]
Cambo
I mean, I don't know.
- [11:23]
Demar Nelson
I never looked up. It looked. Looked him up to see what he.
- [11:26]
Vic Chopra
Did, and I really don't care, but.
- [11:29]
Demar Nelson
I'm feeling that things are gonna have.
- [11:33]
Cambo
Changed a lot since he was in.
- [11:36]
Demar Nelson
And it's going to be a big transition for him now.
- [11:40]
Cambo
He's gonna need support.
- [11:42]
Demar Nelson
I respect you for that, you know, because you're true. But that's the work that we're doing, man. You remember when you got your tour, we talked about that humanizing people. And you, since you've been here, man, you've been a great president, especially to me and him, man. So, you know, it just makes me respect you even more, you know, so I'll be out there, though, man, after count. All right. Thank you, man. Hey, Anthony, you see that? They still loving on you, man. You know, they coming through, man. They talking about you asking, you know, checking. But this is. If I didn't say it, I forgot to say it in the beginning, man. Let me say it now. This is Concrete Mama Podcast, your co host and your host today is Demar Nelson, recording for Letters to Anthony. And Anthony's going home Content y.
- [12:37]
Vic Chopra
You know, listening to Demar's messages to Anthony, it reminds me that the loss of a friend in prison is almost like you're in mourning. It's almost like a death. Because the rules of the free world don't apply to the incarcerated. When someone leaves, you can't just text them or make plans to see each other again in a few weeks. To Damar and our other hosts, Red and Cambo, it could be years before they see or speak to Anthony again. I recently sat down with them to talk about the loss of Anthony and how they're coping with the void his freedom has left behind. What emerged was a frank conversation about the relationships we cultivate in prison and how we navigate them throughout the years we are incarcerated. It's really good to be here with you guys, by the way, I think this is the first time that I. I've sat down. Rachel and I sat down with you once before. But yeah, this is the first time. It's just been us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [13:32]
Steven (Red)
Just a fellas, huh?
- [13:34]
Vic Chopra
Man, we've been looking forward to minus one. Yeah. Who's.
- [13:37]
Demar Nelson
Yeah, he's out there now.
- [13:39]
Vic Chopra
He's out there working, living life. How's that been for you guys?
- [13:44]
Cambo
Weird.
- [13:45]
Vic Chopra
Be real, be honest. Don't. Don't clam up. Tell me.
- [13:48]
Demar Nelson
I'm not, man. I just. It's been, it's been. It happened so quickly, you know, it's like we prepare for it and it happened and then, you know, namely him living with me. Yeah. You know, that was, you know, you just didn't see it like that. He went from having 40 year sentence to getting down. And so for me, it was. It was overwhelming. A degree. I had to. I had to really brace myself for what was coming next or my lifestyle on the inside. The people I worked with. But also too, man, I. For the longest I was acting like it didn't bother me.
- [14:21]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [14:21]
Demar Nelson
Cuz in prison you have to get used to people leaving.
- [14:23]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Yeah.
- [14:24]
Demar Nelson
And I was like, damn, my guy's gone. You know, so it was something that I had to, you know, learn to deal with because I trusted Anthony, you know, I miss him a lot though.
- [14:32]
Vic Chopra
Trust is so hard to come by in here. You know what I mean? Or at least build. Right. I think there's trustworthy people for sure. But like, you have to. You really have to invest in your relationships. And the up thing is that like everything in life happens instantaneously and then you just have to like reel from it and then figure out how you move on. There's no. There's no way to prepare for that loss or when you lose somebody or something or, you know, when we got arrested, right. It was like, oh fuck, I was free one moment and now the cuffs are on and now it's.
- [15:01]
Cambo
It's.
- [15:02]
Vic Chopra
You're down this rabbit hole, right? So I think it's. Grief isn't linear and you're almost mourning the loss of somebody. I mean, he's not dead, but he's not here. It's like when we're inside, we are in our own world versus that. So it's like he went to another dimension. You know what I mean? So it is, right, because you can't communicate with him regularly.
- [15:23]
Demar Nelson
You can't see him.
- [15:25]
Vic Chopra
And I went through the same thing with cellies too.
- [15:28]
Demar Nelson
Right.
- [15:28]
Vic Chopra
Like, or with when Friends got out, it is. It's just like this crazy up loss because they're there one minute and then they're gone. But they're not dead, but they're like, not in your world anymore. You know what I mean?
- [15:43]
Demar Nelson
No, I got you.
- [15:43]
Vic Chopra
Right, right.
- [15:44]
Demar Nelson
For sure.
- [15:44]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [15:45]
Steven (Red)
That.
- [15:45]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:47]
Cambo
The population in here is constantly changing, so, like.
- [15:50]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [15:50]
Cambo
As soon as you get close to somebody, they're gonna go somewhere eventually.
- [15:53]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [15:54]
Demar Nelson
What I learned, too, is that when people get out of here, they mean well. Like, they want to still be connected to you. Yeah. The world and what the world demands won't allow them to do that.
- [16:05]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [16:06]
Demar Nelson
So that you. You begin to the world. Like you just said, that dimension pulls for them in a way that they're not required to actually give here.
- [16:14]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [16:15]
Demar Nelson
It has a strain on the relationship. You know, they got to get their life together, Bills, socially fitting in, in the world, rhythm. So that's what I noticed about that.
- [16:25]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. It's hard. You know, you do mean well. And, you know, when I got out, I said every. I did everything I said I was going to do. I put all my friends, I put money on their books, I put money on their media, and I gave them my phone number and I said, call me. Right. That's dope. And because I, like, I said, the day I get out, I'm gonna get a MacBook and I'm an iPhone. And I did.
- [16:45]
Steven (Red)
Nice.
- [16:46]
Vic Chopra
And then I literally set up my jpay, put money on my phone, and then put money on their media account and then emailed them or messaged them and said, okay, here, love.
- [16:55]
Demar Nelson
Yeah.
- [16:55]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Because I was just said, I was like, I. I have to be.
- [16:58]
Demar Nelson
I was here with you.
- [16:59]
Vic Chopra
I was here with you, and I have to be the person that I said I was going to be. Right. Because that important to me for them to know that, like, I didn't forget. I'm curious, Stephen. Like, do you think. Do you feel like you have walls up when you connect to people? Like, how close do you think you get to people?
- [17:14]
Cambo
No. So it's crazy because I get let down a lot because, like, I give everybody a chance. You know what I'm saying? I always try. I'm like one of them people to where I can get along with anybody. It doesn't matter who you are, where you come from. And so giving everybody a chance, I get let down a lot more.
- [17:33]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [17:34]
Cambo
You know what I mean?
- [17:34]
Demar Nelson
Yeah.
- [17:35]
Cambo
Because I. I can. I easily become friends with people, but then as soon as they do Something, you know, I gotta be like, man, I can't with that, you know, and so it happens a lot. So that's the only bummer thing. I kind of talked about it a little bit on the. The piece we just did, but, yeah, it's hard, you know, it's hard trying to live your life in here like that.
- [17:58]
Vic Chopra
And do you feel lonely?
- [18:01]
Demar Nelson
No.
- [18:01]
Cambo
Just because I got so many cool people around me and I gotta, you know, I got a lot of family and stuff, but it's, you know, it could. It definitely couldn't get to you in here, you know, that type of stuff.
- [18:12]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. What is. What does that look like for you when you say it gets to you? What is.
- [18:17]
Cambo
Tell me about that. It's just a bummer being let down. Like, thinking that you can trust somebody or that this person's cool and then they do something and it's like, you know, it's just a letdown. Just. It's just, you know, it gets old. Especially when you're doing 20, 30 years. Like, we. Like, we're doing, you know, 20, 30, 40 years. So you already know it's not the end. It's going to keep happening, you know?
- [18:40]
Steven (Red)
Right.
- [18:41]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. So how do you deal with that?
- [18:43]
Cambo
Man, I just keep it pushing, man. I'm not gonna change who I am, you know, I'm gonna keep being that same person and. But I just. I grab up the people that I know that I can. I can with and that I can be tight with, and I keep them, you know.
- [18:57]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Cambo? Like, but you know what, do you feel like you're able to connect with people easily in here? Or do you think you have walls up? Or, like, tell me.
- [19:08]
Steven (Red)
I think since being incarcerated or. No, no, actually, just in general, like, I've always been, like, able to get along and connect with people very easily. I'm kind of like. I feel like a chameleon. So I didn't go into any social circle and adapt and vibe with them and connect with them and communicate with them.
- [19:25]
Vic Chopra
Right.
- [19:25]
Steven (Red)
But since being incarcerated, I'm still able to do that. But as far as, like, connecting with people, like, on a deep, deep level, rather than just like, meeting acquaintances and stuff like that. It's really hard for me because, like, these guys said, man, like, people just come in and out of your life like it's nothing. And like, for me, I give my all. Like, I give. I give my heart and soul. You know what I'm saying? When I'm vibing with people and for people Just to, like, walk out. Like, it was just like, nothing is so easily. It's like that me up, you know? And, like, I literally was just talking about this to somebody on the phone, like, two days ago, and I was just like, yeah. Like, that's just how I am. Like, people think I'm, like, super, like, out there and just vibe with everyone. And just this. That was just, like, deep down me, like, nah, I'm cool. Like, I. I only talked to four people in the streets, and two of them is mainly my son and his sister, you know, so that says that right there.
- [20:23]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [20:24]
Steven (Red)
But, yes, that's how I feel in here.
- [20:26]
Vic Chopra
I mean, how old is your son?
- [20:28]
Steven (Red)
He's about to be 13 in November.
- [20:31]
Vic Chopra
Do you think he's somebody that you can sort of pour your heart out to, or do you feel like you try to shield him from some of the harder times that you go through in here?
- [20:39]
Steven (Red)
I definitely try to shield him from some of the harder stuff that goes on in here just because of, like, pop culture and, like, Hollywood and media.
- [20:46]
Vic Chopra
Right.
- [20:47]
Steven (Red)
So even though I can, like, tell him the truth and say. Say my truth of what really goes on in here, he's still going to be influenced by all that stuff, you know? And I can only communicate to him what I can and build a trust to where he trusts what I say because he's always worried about me.
- [21:02]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [21:03]
Steven (Red)
You know what I'm saying? But I just, like, man, I'm cool. I got to stick to myself. Few cast these brothers right here, you guys, that I talk to, you know what I'm saying? If I ever need help with anything or whatever. But I do shield him. Yeah. That's my baby.
- [21:15]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. How often do you talk to him?
- [21:17]
Steven (Red)
I try to talk to him almost every night, you know, sometimes a couple times throughout the day for sure. So.
- [21:23]
Cambo
Yeah.
- [21:24]
Steven (Red)
Yeah. It's good having a healthy relationship with him now.
- [21:27]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Do you. Do you feel like the relationships you do have in here that, like, you can get deep with them and you can. You can talk and sort of like, you know, I remember there'd be times in the. In the cell, right? Like, just talking to my friends and, like, sometimes I. You just. Sometimes you just have those hard days where you're just like, you know, you're like, it's the same.
- [21:55]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [21:55]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, it's the same.
- [21:56]
Cambo
It's like Groundhog's Day.
- [21:57]
Demar Nelson
It is.
- [21:57]
Vic Chopra
That's why I. I literally say the exact same thing. It's. It's just the same, and it wears on your soul and it's like you are just. You're just like, I just want something out chained. Yeah.
- [22:11]
Steven (Red)
Something different.
- [22:11]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, something different. Like, do you. Can you express that to people? Do you verbalize it? Like, do you say it out loud?
- [22:20]
Demar Nelson
We just saying that today, bro.
- [22:22]
Steven (Red)
Yeah, yeah, no, we keep it.
- [22:24]
Demar Nelson
We know we going to keep it. 100.
- [22:25]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [22:26]
Demar Nelson
Like today you talk to me about that and I respect you for that.
- [22:28]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [22:29]
Demar Nelson
Because, you know, I do. Honesty.
- [22:30]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [22:30]
Demar Nelson
He was talking about what you're going through socially.
- [22:34]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Vic Chopra
What is it? What's going on?
- [22:37]
Demar Nelson
They don't have to be like, in detail about.
- [22:39]
Steven (Red)
No, no, yeah.
- [22:40]
Demar Nelson
Just.
- [22:40]
Steven (Red)
Nice. It's good.
- [22:41]
Vic Chopra
So you start there was still there. Yeah, yeah. To share what. Whatever you feel.
- [22:45]
Steven (Red)
I don' so just to add more context to this. Right. So, like, when I first got locked up my first three years, I didn't talk to, like, nobody. Like.
- [22:56]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [22:57]
Steven (Red)
Besides, like, my family. So I didn't talk to no females, which, like, the fellows, they can speak on. Right. It's hard to do time without having females, you know? Yeah. So I did it my first three years out talking to any females for three years, which is like the longest I've ever been, like, without, you know, and then, you know, I went on whatever, you know, met a couple of people, whatever. And then, like, now it's like, I don't even want to go back on there because, like, I don't want to waste my time. But then deep down, like, I miss having like that intimate, like, connection with somebody, you know? And like, I. I don't know. That's what I was talking to him about. Like, I really miss that shit. But I also don't miss people walking in and out of my life like my life has no value.
- [23:39]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [23:40]
Steven (Red)
You know, and that's. That's like, I took it hard when this first happened a few years ago and.
- [23:45]
Vic Chopra
Are you talking about. Are you developing relationships with women through like, write an inmate or.
- [23:49]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [23:49]
Vic Chopra
Website. So to. For anybody that isn't aware, there are prison pen pal websites. Right. Where you can have, if you're incarcerated, you can have your family or friends upload a profile and a photo and then, you know, anybody can go on and find those profiles and then add themselves to your securist jpay, send you letters and you can, you know, know, develop a correspondence relationship with people. Right. And I know, I mean, several of my boys did that while they were inside. So anyway, that's just a little bit of context for. For people. So tell me.
- [24:23]
Steven (Red)
Yeah, I just, I don't Know, like now I haven't been on for like a couple years, two, three years now. Like, I know, like, not like that, but I know I get on. I'm sure somebody's going to hit me up. Right. But I just, I. I have that fear still, that trauma from, like, just having like, everybody walk in and out, like I said, and I didn't. I don't want to go through that because I'm not going to change who I am. I'm still going to give my all. I just don't. I don't want to give my all to people who are not going to reciprocate that.
- [24:50]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [24:50]
Steven (Red)
You know?
- [24:51]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [24:51]
Steven (Red)
And it hurts.
- [24:52]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [24:52]
Steven (Red)
You know what I'm saying? Especially being in here, being isolated and confined away from everybody. It's. It's hard. I do miss being intimate with people.
- [25:00]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [25:01]
Demar Nelson
No, it makes you so. And the truth is, this shit makes you socially awkward.
- [25:06]
Steven (Red)
Yeah, it does.
- [25:06]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [25:07]
Steven (Red)
Like.
- [25:08]
Demar Nelson
Like from the inside out.
- [25:09]
Vic Chopra
It really.
- [25:10]
Steven (Red)
That's what I cared about.
- [25:11]
Demar Nelson
Double Dutch talk. Like, you have double Dutch conversations with people. It's like, should I talk to him? Should I say, should I wait? Should I?
- [25:16]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:17]
Demar Nelson
I'm from a world of people. I shouldn't have an issue connecting with you.
- [25:20]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Yeah.
- [25:21]
Demar Nelson
Introducing myself. And that's what we was talking about earlier, how fucked up this shit makes you.
- [25:25]
Vic Chopra
It is. It's like, you know, sometimes, you know, you can feel like we're just disposable to people. Right. Like, or a novelty or something. Right. If somebody gets, like, writes you from one of those websites, right? It's like, o, let me write this circus freak, you know, or like, you know, this guy. Let me just see, like, experiment. Yeah, let me experiment. You know, when there's a human being behind that letter or behind that message or those phone calls. Yeah, that sucks. Like, I had so many friends of mine that got with a female or like developed a relationship and it fell apart or they got psycho or crazy or possessive or making threats or, you know, this, that and the other thing. And you're just like, how the. You know what is going on right now. Right. Have you ever had anything like that happen, Steven? Do you do those websites?
- [26:15]
Cambo
No. So I've actually got on the website one time about five or six years ago. I got a couple hits letters from people and they weren't. It was one of them things was like one letter or two letters and they fall off.
- [26:29]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:30]
Cambo
Kind of like. Yeah. You know, but as far as, like I would just wanted to add to like, when I'm going through it and I need somebody to talk to, I really lean on these guys, you know, you guys, the podcast team, my guys in the metal shop, my guys in the wood shop, the people I deal with in the unit, my cellie. Because I don't want to get on the phone with my family and be like, hey, I'm going through it right now. I'm having a rough time. When I talk to them on the phone, I wanted to let them know about the positive things that are going on, not the negative things. They're not like, the. I don't want them to be feeling helpless, like, I can't help him right now while he's in there, you know?
- [27:09]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [27:10]
Cambo
That's why I lean on you guys instead.
- [27:14]
Steven (Red)
Yeah.
- [27:14]
Cambo
You know what I'm saying? So.
- [27:15]
Vic Chopra
Oh, 100. I would do the same thing.
- [27:17]
Cambo
But, yeah. And I. As with the pen pal thing, I've never had any good hits on there. I mean, it was a waste since I did it. The one time I was like, I'm out of here. This isn't. Yeah, it's not for me.
- [27:27]
Vic Chopra
Demar, how long have you and your wife been together?
- [27:30]
Demar Nelson
Me and my wife been together for 21 years.
- [27:34]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, she's great. She's an amazing human. Well, you guys are both amazing. Yeah.
- [27:39]
Demar Nelson
Thank you.
- [27:39]
Vic Chopra
Do you feel like sometimes you might shield her from things, or do you think she's somebody you can, you know, truly be, like, raw and real with when you're. When you're talking to her.
- [27:54]
Demar Nelson
Some? I'm raw with my wife.
- [27:56]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [27:56]
Demar Nelson
That's what's protecting my marriage. But I gotta shield her from this as well, because her life's on pause because I'm in here, man, and I take that seriously. I try my best to be understanding, you know, I don't. I'm not one of them dudes locked up. Send me this, pay for this, do that. I'm really. She's doing enough, you know, And I carry a lot of guilt about that. You know what I'm saying?
- [28:18]
Vic Chopra
Do you think she would classify her life as being on pause, or is that something that you or you see? But she would. She would disagree with you.
- [28:30]
Demar Nelson
I don't know. I don't know.
- [28:32]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [28:32]
Demar Nelson
You know, you know, in relationships, there's things that. Though, as close as we are, there's things that we'll never say, yeah, maybe until I get home.
- [28:40]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [28:41]
Demar Nelson
But regardless of how she sees it, it is. She's waiting for me.
- [28:46]
Vic Chopra
Yeah.
- [28:47]
Demar Nelson
I mean, you know, this was just.
- [28:50]
Vic Chopra
A Whole different world for me. You know, When I got here, it was. I'm not saying I'm whatever. Like, I'm just saying, like, it was just different. That's different than anything I'd ever experienced in my life, you know? But I'm actually so grateful I went through it, you know, because it showed.
- [29:04]
Demar Nelson
Me you can get through anything.
- [29:06]
Vic Chopra
You can get through anything. But also just learning how people live that aren't like you or, like, situations or cultures. This is a different culture, you know, like, people. It's just us living in a different way. Right. And I. I'm grateful for that because, like, you can get so attached to your way of life. Right. On the outs or like. And if something shakes that up, people will fall apart. Yeah, right.
- [29:32]
Demar Nelson
It happens in here, man.
- [29:33]
Vic Chopra
It does. It does. Yeah, but like. But it does, man. It's this. All this situation also teaches you how to. What's the term I'm looking for? It. It.
- [29:43]
Demar Nelson
It. Resilience.
- [29:44]
Vic Chopra
It teaches you resilience. And it teaches you how to, like, pick yourself back up and, like, move on. Right. Because persevere. It teaches you perseverance. Thank you. Because things can happen un. Get shut down. You can have your whole world shattered because. Yeah, Covid, Go sleep your ass in the gym.
- [30:02]
Demar Nelson
Everybody sleeping in the gym.
- [30:04]
Vic Chopra
Yeah. Like, it. You know, everything's so tenuous. You know, people can get sent to the hole that's like your best friend. And then you could just never see them again.
- [30:14]
Demar Nelson
Yeah.
- [30:15]
Cambo
Body snatchers.
- [30:16]
Vic Chopra
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:17]
Steven (Red)
Body snatchers.
- [30:18]
Demar Nelson
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:19]
Vic Chopra
No. And I think it brings us back to the original, like, where we started is that, like, people just come and go in your life, and you just don't ever know if or when or how that's going to happen or if or when you're ever going to be able to talk to them again or see them again. Right. And it's crazy because as we grieve these relationships that played such a huge part in our daily lives, it's like all we're left with sometimes are the ghosts of our friends that haunt us behind these walls. But for Demar and Anthony, a bond and brotherhood as strong as theirs doesn't diminish so easily. It stays alive through their shared hopes, dreams, and love for one another. Let's now hear once more from Demar with another message for Anthony the morning after his release.
- [31:12]
Demar Nelson
6, 40 in the morning, 8am man, you hear them toilets flushing up there deep. Hey, cats are starting to get. Get up. Day one, waking up, man, without you, man. You know how it is around here, man, Listening to these toilets flush all day and night. You going there. You hear it? That's that sound, man. Hey, listen. That's that sound we be talking about, man. You know, hearing it all, all day, man. People's getting up, getting ready for breakfast. They probably gonna be calling it pretty soon, but like I said, you ain't got to hear that no more, man. Cat being, you know, getting a good sleep. And you hear these toilets and these buttons pinging off these, these sinks from pushing these, the hot and cold water. But they gonna be calling mainline pretty soon, man, so, you know, hopefully, man, I can, I can, I can on my way to work, man, you know, hoping I can get some people, man. I'm trying to. I'm gonna see if I can get some people, man. Let them express they self, man. Speak to you too, man. Speak to you, man. You know, you missed around here though, man. It's early. I got up with the hot pot popping. I'm drinking my coffee now, you know, one creamer this morning. Morning. You know, I'm usually two. I'm one creamer, hazelnut to be exact. And I just got through watching, man. He was just watching me a little bit of that word, man, and thinking about my plan, man. You know, my plan. You know, we always gotta continue to, to, to crystallize our plan. So, bro, even while you're out there, man, you know, continue to crystallize your plan, man. Because like I told you when we woke up the morning you left, bro, I was like, d. Anthony, man, the work just is, is just beginning, you know, you left at what, 18? You left at, you left at 18. Hold on, man, let me wait for this toilet. And flushing these toilets everywhere. Hey, you left at 18, man, and you returned an adult, man, you know, and so now you're learning to navigate the world as an adult. You don't identify with the gang no more. You don't identify with violence and bad habits. You don't identify with the ego war. We have a lot of ego wars in the world trying to prove ourselves, fighting to be respected and seen for things that really don't do anything but gratify our issues and gratify our egos. You know, they gratify us in some way, you know, because I think it's a self esteem thing. So now that you out there, bro, you're identifying as an, as a man, making sure you, you remember all the things you learned over the years, man. So, so many people poured so much into you. And I think People pour into us when they believe in us, you know, they believe in us. You know, I'm saying it's like we put into the cup because we look to drink from that cup, you know? Right, man. You know, now you're going to be out there, man, pouring into other people's cups and people get a chance to meet you. I'm often fascinated. I want to say too, man, about the people that haven't met us yet. You know, I always think about that. You know, I sit back and daydream about someone, some kid, some child, some woman, the business partner, you know, the friend, the neighbor who gets an opportunity to finally meet me. So I had these visions and I used to share them with you, bro, but now there's people that have been wandering around in the world, living their lives. They had no idea that you were going to bump into them. People have no idea that they're going to bump into me in the future. Future. And I want to retrace, man. You had no idea I was going to bump into you. You know, before we came to this prison, man, and I didn't think we would be cellies, you know, we met and we start hanging out and going to work together was building our friendship, you know, I didn't think we would be that tight. No one foresees that. Nobody says I'm making this friends and we're going to be this close. It just happened. And that's why I say, man, I'm so grateful because after I left Shelton, the last prison I was in, after falling on my face, man, and having a huge setback and having to learn to get back on that horse, continue to believe in my change and continue to believe in the path of, you know, someday I'll be free. So let me continue to get back up and seek doing the right thing, you know, regardless of how far I fail. And you help, help me with that, man, coming here. Because anytime a person goes to a new prison, man, you know, it's always someone that's, you know, kind of lets them know, hey, this is what's going on, get involved in this. And now it's like, I've played that role so many times, and when I got here, you know, you were able to play that role for me. And guess what? I'm right back in that role. You know, I'm trying to find other individuals that I can help lift up, find other other individuals I can empower to change their lives, man, because we can't leave this place, bro, unless we leave different and I really believe that, bro. It's impossible. Like, we can't leave unless we leave different, man. All the people I know that kind of got stuck, and they're staying the same. They stayed. You know, just think about it, bro. You came after a lot of people, but you left before them. You know, there's people we know been up in this thing, man, 28, 32 years, man. Some of them people ain't took one class, man. Not one class. They ain't went and got no ged. And I'm not talking bad about those people. I'm just, like, being incarcerated, I think we both learned, fam. It was like. Like, I gotta take advantage of my opportunity. And that's a life lesson. I'm taking advantage. So when people meet you out there, man, take advantage. You remember when you went to your clemency here, my guy? What I tell you, bro? What I tell you? Remember what our mantra was? Show them who you are. Don't hide that from nobody, man. Show them who you are. Because I think for the longest when we've been incarcerated and we was locked up and you was in here with me, and I think that's really what our fight is, that silent fight to show people who we are. You know, you interact with staff, and they look at you with a third eye if you're respectful, because you're different. You know, you're dealing with inmates, people that are locked up, like us, man, and they look at you like, why is he doing that? You know, people doubt what they don't understand. They look at us through squinted eyes, you know, And I can kind of understand that to some degree, right? Because they look at a computer to kind of define who they're going to deal with, which kind of makes it difficult not only on us, but it kind of makes it difficult for them, too, because sometimes what you read about a person isn't exactly who that person is. It's what they've done. But you can't tack that to them and say, this is who they are. I'm going to peg them. They won't change. They can't grow. I don't want to deal. That does more harm to them. Because they don't know how we met those circumstances, senses why we made those choices. Great people make big mistakes, bro, like, all the time. So, man, show them who you are out there, man. Show them who you are out there, man.
- [39:05]
Vic Chopra
Show them who you are. Powerful words from my brother, Demar. And that's exactly what we're here to do, to shine a Light on who we are as the incarcerated and unincarcerated. But that's not all. Throughout this season on concretemama, we're going to be bringing you some real life history and maybe a ghost story or two from the Washington State Penitentiary. With a legacy as long as this prison has, you better believe it's rich with some wild, unbelievable stories. And to start us off, Red is going to take you back in time to when the prison earned the name Concrete Mama and inspired two young journalists to write a book chronicling their immersion behind these prison walls.
- [39:48]
Cambo
The Washington State Penitentiary sits on the edge of a small historic town called Walla Walla. The rural region is known for its fertile soil, numerous rivers, and a vast well of Washington State history, all tucked just out of sight behind the Blue Mountains. The prison sits atop a hill looming over one side of the town. And it's been said that somebody had a sense of humor when they created the address of 1313 North 13th Ave. Not a very good one if you ask me. Come on, man. This prison itself is a huge place. The original grounds have fortress walls and almost look like a castle. Built in 1886 on 540 acres of land, there's a huge maze of buildings, barbed wire fences and guard towers. And for a prison with an almost 150 year history, there's a lot of stories to tell you about. If you ask me, prisons are almost invisible communities existing in rural areas like Walla Walla and are a major employer for the local economy. But they aren't seen as a part of the town by its residents. Residents, they exist as a shadow that looms in the background even when the town goes to sleep at night and all you can see are the bright lights of the prison yards on the horizon. We're still just an afterthought. My name is Steven, AKA Red, and I'm coming to you from within these walls where I've been locked up for the past 10 years. Even though I have a lot of friends and family from the outside who have been there for me through thick and thin. I've lost count of the number, number of people that said they never forget about me and then left me for dead in here. But that's what happens when you live in the shadows. Out of sight, out of mind.
- [41:27]
Demar Nelson
Right?
- [41:30]
Cambo
Because I've spent the last 10 years of my sentence here in the penitentiary. Walla Walla has become a part of who I am as a person. It'll be a part of my life that I'll never forget. There's so many wild stories and almost no one except the locals and people who have done time here that know them. I've submerged myself into the history of this place trying to find out if the stories and folklore I've heard over the years are true or not. So that I can share them with you. In every episode, we're going to share with you pieces of the history of this place. And to start, I'm going to take you into a very specific time when the name Concrete Mama was born. In the mid-70s, two out of towners named John McCoy and Ethan Hoffman moved here to take their first journalism jobs at the local paper, the Union Bulletin. They had the assignment of covering local food, religion and the prison. And it didn't take long before they were convinced that the penitentiary was the most fascinating story in town. What they couldn't understand was why the newspaper's management believed that the best way to live with the prison was to ignore it, to keep it in the shadows. So after a few years, they quit their jobs to immerse themselves in this place every day for four months. After risking their safety to become part of the community and roaming unescorted through the prison day after day, they merged with this book called Concrete Mama. While inside they uncovered a diverse community with its own economy, culture and factions who were vying for power within the prison. This was the first time in U. S. History that prisoners were granted the power to govern themselves because of a controversial experiment put together by the governor, a psychiatrist and a local warden. What started in response to a need for change and reform due to prison riots in the 1950s and later a series of rebellions that happened nationally, including the infamous 1971 Attica prison uprising became something wilder than anyone could have predicted at the time. The governor, Dan Evans, who was a liberal republican, decided to appoint a psychiatrist named Dr. William Conti, with no experience in the justice system to a position called called head of institutions. And the warden named B.J. ray, a local of Walla Walla was already in the midst of his own sweeping reforms, including prisoners being able to wear their own street clothes, grow their hair however they wanted, make and have their own money, and even go outside the walls on occasion to visit their families. Inspired by the progressive prison models they saw in Scandinavian countries, their goal was to implement similar programming at the penitentiary. What started with good intentions soon turned into something that spiraled out of control because at the same time they were implementing self governance, the prison population became seriously overcrowded with younger, more violent people. Also, those impacted by the Vietnam War, and people who were already addicted to drugs like heroin and cocaine. Tensions were also high between rival factions that formed during this time, like the Prison Motorcycle association that was full of different outlaw biker gangs, the Black Prisoners, Forum Unlimited, the Chicano Club, the Lifers Club, and others who vied for power. And to top it off, the prison administration was struggling to put in structures of support that would ensure self governance could be effective. This caused the penitentiary to become a melting pot for more violence, rape, and murder. All of this is chronicled in the book Concrete Mama. And we'll be taking a more of a deep dive into this as the season progresses. What the book did for a short time was bring many of the stories that would have remained in the shadow into the light. But did it really make a difference or change anything? We still see prisons and prisoners as separate from society. And that's kind of the point, right? This prison still has a bad reputation today, even though things are a lot different with a new era of reforms. Even when people get their chain bag that says which prison they're going to, if it says Walla Walla, everybody's like, no, trust me, I was one of those people. So we're going to give you a front row seat to our lives and to us coming out of the shadows, we hope this time it makes a difference.
- [46:08]
Vic Chopra
Man, that is some crazy stuff, but definitely not surprising. I can remember when I was incarcerated at the penitentiary and I'd hear wild tales about hell's angels riding their Harleys out on the prison yard, and I thought it was just preposterous jailhouse rumors or urban legends, but sure enough, it really happened. Stay tuned as the season progresses because Red and our team will be bringing you some more unbelievable history. History of Washington State Penitentiary.
- [46:40]
Demar Nelson
Hey, everyone, this is Anthony Covert, one.
- [46:42]
Vic Chopra
Of your co hosts for Concrete Mama. Recently liberated after serving 16 years behind bars. I'm back and ready to dive into the real stories. Stay tuned for our next episode where I talk about navigating the free world and what it's been like adjusting to.
- [46:56]
Demar Nelson
Life without my right hand man, Demar Nelson, now here with me.
- [46:59]
Vic Chopra
And here's a sneak peek of what's coming up.
- [47:03]
Demar Nelson
Man, bro, I wish you was out here so bad, bro, because I have a way to convey things, but you have a way to convey things, bro. We're in the room together, my guy. It's just different, you know what I mean? And the energy, the way we're able.
- [47:19]
Vic Chopra
To feed off each other, bro, is different.
- [47:22]
Demar Nelson
When we're sharing a space, my guy. I've yet to find that man.
- [47:29]
Vic Chopra
We want to thank you for listening to our premiere episode of Concrete Mama, the Podcast, and we hope you'll continue listening to our entire first season. This podcast was produced by Unincarcerated Productions. I'm Rachel Cech, one of the producers, and you'll be hearing from me throughout this season. This project would not be possible without support and partnership with the Washington State Penitentiary and the Washington State Department of Corrections. We would especially like to acknowledge Chris McGill, Josh Lancaster, Irish Clark, Rob Jackson, and Kitsie Brannock from wsp. And a huge thank you to Cheryl Strange, Don Holbrook, Sean Murphy, and Chris Wright from Washington State Department of Corrections. We would also like to express our gratitude to the town of Walla Walla and Whitman College for their many contributions. That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bentz is our editor, audio Engineer and graphic designer. Megan Sanchez handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and me, Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla and Washington State Doc have made this project possible. For more info, check out our show notes and you can write us with questions about the podcast at the email and address listed there. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. You can also subscribe to support us and get extra content. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.
- [49:21]
Demar Nelson
SA.