"We Don't Change... We Heal"

Summary

Concrete Mama: The Podcast
Episode: "We Don't Change... We Heal"
Release Date: April 14, 2025
Host/Author: Unincarcerated Productions

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Introduction

"We Don't Change... We Heal" is a compelling episode of Concrete Mama: The Podcast, hosted by Unincarcerated Productions. This episode intricately weaves historical insights, personal narratives, and transformative experiences within the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla. Through engaging discussions and heartfelt speeches, the episode sheds light on the evolution of prison governance, the power of community programs, and the enduring spirit of those incarcerated.

Revisiting the Concrete Mama History

The episode kicks off with Red delving deeper into the historical transformation of the Washington State Penitentiary (WSP). Building upon the "Concrete Mama" narrative from the first episode, Red explores the inception of self-governance in the prison system during the early 1970s.

Red [00:09]: “November 1970 was when the reforms were first put into place... implementing a resident government council, basically letting prisoners control more of our own daily lives.”

Red highlights the initial noble intentions inspired by Scandinavian prison models aimed at reducing recidivism through rehabilitation. However, the reality quickly spiraled into chaos, marked by escalating violence and mistrust among inmates. The pivotal moment described involves a near-massacre orchestrated by rival groups, which was only quelled by the intervention of influential inmates like professional boxer Gordon Gordy Graham and Johnny Harris.

Red [04:50]: “If it wasn't for professional boxer Gordon Gordy Graham being a voice of reason that day, they would have.”

This section underscores the fragile balance between inmate autonomy and institutional control, ultimately leading to the abolition of the resident government council in 1979.

Juneteenth Celebration at WSP Walla Walla

Transitioning from history to present-day events, the episode features a powerful segment from the Juneteenth celebration held at WSP. Damar Nelson, alongside fellow hosts and community members, orchestrates a meaningful ceremony aimed at honoring ancestors and fostering unity.

Damar Nelson [06:31]: “Welcome to the Juneteenth at the Washington State Penitentiary... we’re going to take a moment to just honor everything that they went through so that we can have this moment right here today.”

The celebration serves as a bridge between the incarcerated individuals and their families, emphasizing cultural heritage and collective healing. Vic Chopra reflects on the significance of such events, highlighting their role in restoring humanity and agency among prisoners.

Vic Chopra [08:21]: “When you bring the outside in... it restores so much of that humanity.”

Insights from the Department of Corrections

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to an illuminating interview with top officials from the Washington State Department of Corrections (DOC), including Cheryl Strange, Don Holbrook, and Sean Murphy. Damar Nelson facilitates a candid discussion about the ongoing reforms and the shift towards more humane and rehabilitative prison practices.

Cheryl Strange [12:50]: “We’re trying to make it useful to be here and what comes after this.”

The officials elaborate on various programs aimed at reducing incarceration rates and supporting reentry into society. Don Holbrook emphasizes the DOC's mission as an agency of second chances, detailing initiatives like the Solitary Confinement Transformation and the AMEND program.

Don Holbrook [16:22]: “We are an agency of second chances for people.”

They also discuss the challenges of implementing equitable programs across diverse inmate populations, highlighting the importance of individualized attention and community support.

Personal Journeys and Transformation

The heart of the episode lies in the personal stories shared by incarcerated individuals Anthony Colbert and Damar Nelson, as well as insights from producer Rachel Check. Anthony recounts his transformative journey through various prison programs, such as the Writers of Wisdom (WOW) program, which empowered him to mentor younger inmates.

Anthony Colbert [16:46]: “I got involved with a lot of different programs... it was a powerful thing for me.”

Rachel Check shares her deep-rooted connection to Walla Walla and her passion for prison programming, stemming from her early experiences and professional endeavors aimed at fostering positive change within the prison system.

Rachel Check [26:23]: “They have the gift of attention. They don’t have a cell phone in their pocket. They do their homework so selfishly.”

Her narrative underscores the reciprocal nature of teaching and learning within the prison environment, highlighting the mutual benefits of such interactions.

The Community Connection

A highlight of the episode is the Juneteenth speeches delivered by Anthony Colbert and Sean Murphy. These speeches encapsulate the essence of transformation, community support, and the ongoing struggle for liberation and equality.

Anthony Colbert [42:53]: “Those systems were designed to fail us. They were designed to entrap people of color.”

Sean Murphy emphasizes the importance of community involvement and unity in driving systemic change, advocating for volunteerism and active participation in reformation efforts.

Sean Murphy [43:36]: “We need to take advantage of those opportunities... Volunteer your time.”

These narratives are complemented by heartfelt messages from Damar Nelson, who addresses his son, reinforcing themes of strength, resilience, and unconditional support.

Damar Nelson [46:24]: “Don nobody vouch, validate you, bro. You’re not about to get it from the school, the streets, the game, social media. Don’t nobody validate you. I’m gonna do that.”

Concluding Historical Reflections

Returning to the historical analysis, Red elaborates on the various inmate groups that dominated WSP in the 1970s, providing a vivid portrayal of the complexities and power dynamics within the prison ecosystem. He references key literature that offers deeper insights into this turbulent period.

Red [53:45]: “Drugs and violence ran rampant through most of the 70s until 1979... Learning from our past mistakes... we’re still trying and moving forward.”

Red concludes with an optimistic outlook, emphasizing the progress made since the chaotic early years and the continuous efforts to improve prison governance and inmate welfare.

Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with a preview of the next installment, promising to delve into the intake and arrival processes within the prison system. Vic Chopra and Rachel Check express gratitude to the supporters and participants who make the podcast possible, reiterating the mission to humanize and educate about the prison experience.

Vic Chopra [58:46]: “Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It’s a platform for voices that need to be heard.”

Conclusion

"We Don't Change... We Heal" is a poignant exploration of the prison experience, blending historical context with contemporary reforms and personal transformations. Through heartfelt speeches, insightful interviews, and reflective narratives, Concrete Mama not only recounts the challenges within the Washington State Penitentiary but also celebrates the resilience and potential for change among its inmates. This episode serves as a testament to the power of community, education, and unwavering human spirit in the journey towards healing and rehabilitation.

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Notable Quotes:

• Red [00:09]: “November 1970 was when the reforms were first put into place... implementing a resident government council, basically letting prisoners control more of our own daily lives.”

• Cheryl Strange [12:50]: “We’re trying to make it useful to be here and what comes after this.”

• Don Holbrook [16:22]: “We are an agency of second chances for people.”

• Anthony Colbert [16:46]: “I got involved with a lot of different programs... it was a powerful thing for me.”

• Sean Murphy [43:36]: “We need to take advantage of those opportunities... Volunteer your time.”

• Red [53:45]: “Drugs and violence ran rampant through most of the 70s until 1979... Learning from our past mistakes... we’re still trying and moving forward.”

These quotes encapsulate the episode's central themes of reform, community support, personal growth, and the enduring quest for a more humane prison system.

Transcript

[Vic Chopra]

This program contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[Red]

So I told you about the big story of the concrete mama days in episode one, but I really barely scratched the surface. Let me take you deeper to the time in history when self governance at the Washington State Penitentiary started. Here's the thing. The intention around it was great. It was an idea snatched from Scandinavian countries where they actually have this prison thing figured out, where recidivism and crime is super low to begin with and where people actually think things are working in terms of getting people rehabilitated and returned to citizens. So parts of the US have been trying to model our country after theirs for over 50 years. Right now, people are actually trying to implement things like the Amends program and the Washington way to try it again here in Washington State. But hold up, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me go back and tell you a little bit about what I know from the history books. November 1970 was when the reforms were first put into place. The first was getting rid of strip cells, which basically are bare cells where it's just you and the walls to keep you company. This was a commonly used method for punishment back then. The second was no more reading of inc. The mail was to be open to remove contraband only, and no outgoing mail was to be censored. The third was adding telephone services for prisoners. Finally. And the fourth was implementing a resident government council, basically letting prisoners control more of our own daily lives. So before we talk about the full story, it's important to know that in the 10 years prior, there had only been three murders. But by March of 1971, only five months into it, that number had already been matched. And I'd like to tell you the total number of murders, but there are two problems with that. One is that many deaths were ruled a suicide, but were actually murdered, according to a lot of people I talked to who lived through that time. The other issue is that a lot of deaths were swept under the rug. And the true number is said to be two to three times that. @ any rate, officers and administration knew this system wasn't going to work. So they basically figured they would just let these guys kill each other. Ultimately, they thought something big would go completely sideways and things would go back to the way they were in the 50s and 60s. And one of the main issues was that the guys put in charge of the first resident council were people no one respected. So one day, what started as an argument over a TV channel change at the prison auditorium led to A young white guy punching an old black man in the face. This was a bad move and against the rules. As far as prison politics go. Back then, prison politics matched any political wars you may see today in the U.S. and if you are going to hit someone from another race, you better first get permission from each race's leader. So a major brawl broke out that day between blacks and whites. And later that night, similar things continued to escalate. The following day, an agreement was made by blacks and whites to meet an auditorium to settle things once and for all. 400 men armed with every makeshift weapon imaginable piled into the auditorium determined to kill each other. Guys who had been friends for years were being convinced to potentially murder each other because of the color of their skin. Even guys who didn't have anything to do with the incident and didn't believe in the cause were expected to participate. Officers just let them walk right past and even locked the doors so no one could escape. I can't imagine how people must have been feeling that would scare the out of anyone in that situation for me. I would have felt claustrophobic and sick from thinking I was about to die for nothing. If it wasn't for professional boxer Gordon Gordy Graham being a voice of reason that day, they would have. He got up on stage and gave a speech telling everyone that they were doing exactly what the man wanted him to do. The story goes that everyone started looking around at each other and the tensions in the room started to ease. Then Johnny Harris, one of the baddest dudes in the joint at the time, and the leader of the blacks, got up on stage and agreed with what Gordy was saying. The officers were on the other side of that door waiting to enjoy the show. That is crazy. And when the other leaders started joining them on the stage, they knew it was time to make peace and not feed into the violence. So when the doors finally opened, picture this, everyone walked out together and threw their weapons into two 55 gallon drums. Then a couple of the fellas took them to the guard station and dropped them off without saying a word. The next day they formed a race Relations committee. And after its constitution was approved, the first Resident Government council was elected. And the first two presidents were none other than Johnny Harris and Gordy Graham. At first the Resident Government Council was supposed to work together as one group, but that didn't work very well. So it broke into nine major groups. Stay tuned cuz later on I'm going to break it down about the nine clubs.

[Damar Nelson]

Concrete Mama, Podcast Man. All right. So here, I want you to meet somebody. Vic, this is my son.

[Red]

Hey.

[Damar Nelson]

This is my. This is my wife.

[Rachel Check]

Hi.

[Red]

How are you?

[Damar Nelson]

I'm good. How are you? Nice to meet you, too. And this is my mom.

[Rachel Check]

Hi.

[Damar Nelson]

This is Vic from Unincarcerated. We're doing the podcast. He runs the company that we're doing the podcast for the prison through.

[Cheryl Strange]

Yeah, let's get rolling, buddy.

[Damar Nelson]

All right. All right, everybody find your seats, please. Everybody, find your seats. We were running late. It's time to begin. Get with your family. How's everybody doing today? Okay, man, we gotta do that again. How's everybody doing today?

[Sean Murphy]

Okay.

[Damar Nelson]

Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the Juneteenth at the Washington State Penitentiary. I wanted to give a special thanks to the administration visiting staff. I want to also thank spl Chris, Josh getting the visitors in. But today, I want to be clear. Have fun. It's brother people up in here tight. They ain't been around nobody. So really what we like to do is. Before we started Juneteenth, you guys know culture. One of the things that I want to educate you guys on too, is we want to get permission from the elder to begin the services and celebration. And that begins with an agreement. So one of the things we gonna do before we start, I want to do a libation. So what a libation means is a thanks. So before we begin, I need somebody to come up front and help me out. Aside. Can you help me real quick? We're gonna pour a little water into this plant. It's called a libation. It's all right. What we're going to do is honor our ancestors. We're going to honor those that came before us. And what we're going to do is we're going to take a moment to just honor everything that they went through so that we can have this moment right here today. It's called a libation. After I'm done pouring, I want everybody to say ashe. So let's practice that on three. One, two, three. That means amen. Thank you. That's what we gonna do. All three. All three. Hold on. One, two, three. Ashe. All right, let's get it cracking, man.

[Vic Chopra]

Welcome back to Concrete Mama, the podcast. Hi, I'm Vic Chopra, and what you just heard was a clip from the Juneteenth celebration held at the Washington State Penitentiary last year. This event was organized and facilitated by the Black Prisoners Caucus in the medium security unit, and many members of the Walla Walla community were in attendance, as well as friends and family of the incarcerated. Now if you've come on this journey down the yellow brick road with us with no prior knowledge of prison, you might be asking a lot of questions about this. So let me break it down for you. First, the Black Prisoners Caucus, or bpc, as it's called. In a nutshell, the BPC is a cultural group comprised of incarcerated members that come together to uplift each other and better themselves while doing time. And there's many other cultural groups such as this, like the AAPI group, Indigenous or native group, and more. And these are very similar to the groups of the RGC Red just spoke about in his history report. In fact, many have evolved out of those groups, and every so often, they are able to hold cultural events like these where they can invite members of the community inside to celebrate an occasion like Juneteenth. The concept of inviting the community inside the prison isn't new and isn't unique to Washington State. There's many programs out there that hold such events in the United States, yet these are not as common as one would hope, especially in remote or rural areas where access can be difficult. But what makes these so impactful is how the event brings the outside in and facilitates real, connected, human interaction between the incarcerated and the community.

[Damar Nelson]

This is your moment, man, to enjoy what it's like to be a part of society. Say hi, smile, be appropriate. You guys enjoy your time.

[Vic Chopra]

I can't tell you how much of a positive impact this can have for everyone. When you're doing time, you can feel invisible, like you're living in the shadows. As Red said in our first episode, there's very little opportunity to interact with the free world. So having a conversation with a community member or someone from the outside can make you feel human again. And for that person who decided to come to prison that day, it can have a profound effect on their view of the incarcerated and the world at large. There is a shared, restorative humanity that takes place that can have positive ripple effects throughout the prison, the town, the state, and hopefully the world. In a space full of darkness, there are chances to regain the light in your life as a prisoner. These events are one way. Programming is another. I get asked quite a bit about how I spent my time in prison. For me, I took advantage of the weight deck to learn how to lift weights and rebuild my body. In addition to writing and learning how to meditate at the Washington State Penitentiary, there's opportunities to earn a high school or college degree, vocational certificates in areas like carpentry or welding, and programs like the Sustainable Practices Lab, which is a one of a kind building that not only houses our podcast studio and program, but offers unique opportunities to learn hydroponic gardening, a metal shop and more. And at facilities across Washington state, there are similar educational and programming opportunities. Not long ago, in an unprecedented turn of events, Damar was able to sit down and interview the highest ranking members of the Washington State Department of Corrections, Cheryl Strange, Shawn Murphy and Don Holbrook, and discuss their support for not only our podcast program, but programming at large. Let's listen to some of that interview now.

[Damar Nelson]

Concrete mom of the podcast, Damar Nelson, your host here. And I'm here with some amazing guests today to talk about all the great things that are actually happening inside of the institutions. And I'm really, really excited today to have these guys here. Go ahead and introduce yourself, man.

[Cheryl Strange]

Don Holbrooke, Assistant Secretary over Men's prisons. Cheryl Strange, the Secretary for the Department of Corrections.

[Don Holbrook]

Sean Murphy, the Deputy Secretary for the Department of Corrections.

[Damar Nelson]

Deputy. Great, great lineup. Great lineup here. This is a dream come true. I want to talk to you guys because there's a lot of great things taking place and honestly I'm happy because I'm a beneficiary of a lot of those things taking place inside of doc. I feel like DOC is on that pendulum right now where we're trying to make those changes. You guys are trying to empower people to be better when they reenter the community and by giving them more, more things to do, more programs. And Ms. Strange, I kind of want to start with you. Like, let's talk about those visions and things that have been talked about at those big roundtables in Olympia.

[Cheryl Strange]

It's just really fun to be here. This podcast and the name Concrete Mama is just, boy, it's come long and far. My coming to DOC in was it May of 2021 was all about sort of trying to put some rocket fuel behind some of those things that help folks getting out. So that's got to start on the inside here. We're trying to figure out how to make it useful to be here and what comes after this.

[Damar Nelson]

I want to know how do you guys turn the tide with trying to get to the Norway model? Because what people don't realize, and I tell this to guys in the unit, it took those guys about 30 years to get that thing down, but when they came here, they was like head over heels about spl. So we're all learning from each other. Even though there's things they have we want.

[Don Holbrook]

Our goal really overall has been we know that Incarceration is rough on everybody that comes through the fences. Everybody. Both the incarcerated, their families, our staff and volunteers. And our goal is to really make that more humane, make it more engaging, make it more meaningful so that when folks come back out, as your label says, an unincarcerated podcast, Right. We're really focused on that unincarcerated portion.

[Cheryl Strange]

It's giving people and full circle. When I say people, it's staff, it's incarcerated. The ability to do something that is not stressful. It feels good. You interact with people. I know Cheryl supports it, Sean supports it. All our interactions with folks is just positive because we work in an environment that can potentially bring the negative. And I think it's important that we have a balance there. We are coming along, but that story's always been true. We're always coming along, but we're not there yet. Until every officer, every incarcerated individual is given opportunity with individualized attention, we just gotta keep moving. I'm proud of these guys. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of what people are doing here. We do have a moment where people are present and not a lot of distractions.

[Don Holbrook]

Young men and young women are coming in to our doors, oftentimes highly addicted. And that makes you make some bad decisions occasionally on the streets and just their youth, they make some bad choices. And so when they come to us, our goal is to clean that up, get them to grow, get them to change. And being an agency of second chances is a critical piece of that. One of the things that I try and remember every day is that we are an agency of second chances for people. And so if you look at some of the things that we've been able to do, you've got solitary confinement transformation, you got the patient centered medical home conversion happening in health services, you've got our violence reduction efforts that's going on right now. You've got the AMEND program, you've got just a whole host of things that are really moving in to create better neighbors. Recognize that people have made some choices in their life and we're trying to get them back on track.

[Cheryl Strange]

I've been thinking a lot about peer based. We have a lot of people who've been released who want to come back in and help. You know, there are challenges. We're sorting through those again. I'm always looking with an eye to equity around. When I say equity, I'm talking about all boats rise. So, you know, you can do something here and then you can turn around and do it over here. But the challenge is, how do you do it all at the same time?

[Damar Nelson]

One of the words that I live by during my time, it's been 16 years now, and I've made some mistakes, man, in my past, but there came a time where I was like, I need to transcend my current circumstances, not only be better, because if I'm better, my son gets a better father, my wife gets a better husband, the community gets a better individual when I get my chance to reenter society.

[Don Holbrook]

The legislature over the last 11 years has created eight different sentencing alternatives to reduce the amount of incarceration. The governor's office has been very supportive at continuing to reduce incarceration. So when you think about all those things and then you think about the initiatives that are coming alive right now, it's really an exciting time. It's time for everybody to stretch their wings, to be transformative, to think about change, to be impactful. And as Secretary Strange says, regularly we get all boats to rise that way.

[Anthony Colbert]

So change don't happen overnight. It wasn't just an overnight thing where I was like, you know what? I got it. I'm just going to figure it out. I'm just going to figure out how to go home. So I was still doing my thing. I was still getting in trouble, but I was starting to make a transition in my life. I was starting to do things and see things a little bit differently. You know, I got involved with a lot of different programs. I got involved with this program called the wow. Program Writers of Wisdom. And it was one of the dopest programs I got to be a part of, because I got to talk to young people through letters and explain to them the conditions in which the lives that they're choosing will get them. And I don't know if I ever really, truly impacted anybody. And if I did, I hope so. And if I didn't, well, hopefully I'm going to be able to impact somebody with my story today. It was a powerful thing for me because I got to talk to my younger self and I got to warn them about the decisions that you're making are going to lead you down a place that you are not comfortable with. I remember I got one letter from one of the kids down there. We don't know names or anything like that. Everything was separated by numbers. So if you got to write kid number four or five or whatever, and you were adult number one, two, three, and you guys matched up, and it was crazy because I got this young kid. He was a young man. He was black and Hispanic, and he was Telling me about how it was very tough for him to be able to know who is he? Is he supposed to be studying Hispanic culture? Is he supposed to be studying African American culture and he was being raised by an all white family? It was funny because I was like, this is literally my younger self. And I got to tell him it's not about who or what culture, it's about who are you, who are you going to be? Don't let just because you're black or Hispanic or who you're being raised by define who you are. Those are pieces of who you are, but it's not who you are. I gotta give him that. And the whole time I'm giving him that, I am talking to myself saying, it does not matter what I look like, it matters who I am. Am I somebody that brings to people something positive? Am I somebody that makes people smile? Am I somebody that makes people laugh? Am I somebody that gives people something of sustenance where they're able to hang onto that, move on with their life and go forward knowing that, hey, that person added to me something positive? Or am I somebody that causes destruction, pain, tears, heartache, confusion? Who am I?

[Vic Chopra]

Inspiring words from Anthony there speaking to the power of programming inside prison and the opportunity it brings to not only help others, but and continue to rejoice in our shared humanity, but to also restore a sense of agency and purpose to your life while doing time. I can't tell you how important that is in the process of our transformation. And it's not every day that the heads of DOC agree to speak on the record with an incarcerated human. So that was a very special opportunity for not only Demar, but our entire team. And look, we understand that this system is not perfect and needs significant change. It's going to take a lot of work, but it is very heartening to see the decision makers in the system of corrections working alongside us to help things evolve and grow to better serve the needs of incarcerated humans. And we are grateful to continue to do this podcast with the support of DOC and wsp and support for programming and events is so needed, not only from those working in the system, but from community, community and volunteers. Education, events and a slew of other programming opportunities are not possible without volunteers and community members. I'm sure many people don't necessarily think of prison when considering volunteer opportunities, but doing so can have a profound effect on those that are willing to do the work. Our own showrunner and producer, Rachel Check, is a native of Walla Walla and has her own story and perspective on why community support for prison programming is so important and has the power to be absolutely transformative for all parties involved. Hey, Concrete Mama listeners, this is Vic Chopra, and I am here today with producer and showrunner extraordinaire Rachel Check. She is our CEO and this incredible journey that is unincarcerated Productions. So thanks for being here today, Rachel.

[Rachel Check]

Yeah, thank you.

[Vic Chopra]

Let's dig into a little bit of your story. You are actually a local gal to Walla Walla, correct?

[Rachel Check]

Yes, I am. I grew up in Walla Walla, and I was a farm kid. My dad taught agriculture at the local community college, but he also taught some classes at the penitentiary and was doing programming out there, also in agriculture. And so it made a huge impression on me. The seeds were planted early. I also grew up very close to the state penitentiary where you did your time and where we're doing the podcast. And so there were a lot of stories, you know, growing up of, like, well, for example, there was a sign on the signs that said, don't pick up hitchhikers near the prison. So that myth and lore had a big impression on me. But also back then, the death penalty was still in existence. And I'll get to that part of the story here in a minute. But there were a lot of things that were happening in such a small town that made a huge impression on me. There were several murders that occurred in close proximity to me, either physically close to where I lived, or I knew somebody that knew somebody kind of thing. I thought that was really strange for such a small town. I think the population's about 35, and my friend's dad was actually the sheriff. So, you know, that added another layer to knowing what was going on. And then when I was in junior high, I think we were featured on both Oprah and Geraldo, which were, you know, talk shows of the era. And I knew the people that were involved in the stories. And so it was like this weird stuff that was going on in my life and in the town's life, if you will, playing out on a national stage. And there were lots of things that happened that I was like, this is not normal. Like, for a small town, is this really normal? I don't think so. And this is like pre social media, pre reality TV show. And it was like reality TV playing out in my life back then.

[Vic Chopra]

If you ended up on Oprah and Geraldo around the same time, that's a big red flag.

[Rachel Check]

I would say, oh, my God. Yeah, it was crazy. But all this stuff was happening in A span of very few years. And then when I was, I think it was a senior in high school, I was running the high school newspaper and I thought at the time I wanted to be a journalist. So, you know, full circle moment here with the podcast. There was a person being put to death named Wesley Allen Dodd. I think it was like 92, 93. And I did the story on him. And I went out on the highway where people were both protesting against the death penalty and also tailgate partying for this guy's death. And regardless of what he had done, you know, and how heinous it was, I just couldn't understand the vitriol of, like, partying for somebody's death. It really left a huge impression on me. You know, writing that story was a big deal, and I didn't even realize it at the time how big of a deal it was. But now looking back on it, you know, I see everything else I've done in my career related to those formative years and those kinds of things that happened.

[Vic Chopra]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I know my views on the death penalty have changed too, since becoming justice impacted. And I understand that point of view. And I'm now somebody that is an abolitionist against the death penalty as well. I don't think. I don't think we should have it in this country. Tell me a little bit more about how that informed who you became, both personally and professionally.

[Rachel Check]

Well, on a personal level, I always root for the underdog. I always stick my neck out for people that aren't being marginalized or don't come from privilege. And I try to shine a light on people who are in the shadows. And we talk about that in the podcast, you know, the prison being kind of in the shadow of the town. And I think that from where I went to college, which was a very liberal arts education, I remember my mom taking me to school at Evergreen in Olympia, and she was like, I don't know if I want to leave you here, because when I arrived that day, there were people protesting, testing, and chaining themselves to bulldozers because they were going to clear cut some of the forest because they really needed housing for campus. But she did not realize how perfect of a spot that was for me. From there I went on, you know, and I was in education for a long time, started teaching in the Seattle school district, realized that I liked big kids even more, meaning adults, and went into training in corporate America, leadership development, that sort of thing. And then I always had this burning desire to have a creative outlet and still be able do some stuff that was journalistic. And so 30 years into my career, I'm basically back to the beginning, where I have the creative outlet, the journalism, the storytelling, all of that stuff, but always with a focus on marginalized folks.

[Vic Chopra]

So tell me, what drives this passion you have for programming in prisons and the podcast itself?

[Rachel Check]

Well, 13 years ago, I was running a startup in San Francisco, and I got invited to go into San Quentin in prison. And I thought I was there to teach them. I was teaching, like, interview skills and body language and some other social skills, and I got schooled. I was in there with all lifers who had less than two years to their potential parole date. And there were several students that I had there that made a massive impression on me. And I was like, I'm hooked. I gotta do this work. Like, I've got to stay involved with prisons. And so when I moved home to Washington state, I literally contacted the closest prison, and I was like, street, I worked at San Quentin. What do you got for me? And so that's when I actually met Spencer. I came in and taught in the prison that he was in. So after going in and teaching at Monroe, Covid happened, and everything got shut down, all the programming. And luckily, I had found you guys, and we were able to continue to do some stuff on the outside, but I couldn't wait to get back in. And that might sound like a weird sentence to somebody who's never been to prison, but it's one of the places that I feel like I'm most on purpose. You know, I feel like I'm living my purpose. And I think that the reason that I'm so passionate about programming in particular, I mean, I have a background in education, so I'm always learning and growing myself. But you'll never find better students than folks who are incarcerated because they have the gift of attention. They don't have a cell phone in their pocket. They do their homework so selfishly. As a teacher, you know, people will come in and have done not only their homework, but, like, more than. But really, they're teaching me as much as I'm teaching them. I like the depth of the conversations that we have, the shared humanity, the healing that goes on, and the spark of transformation. It's really exciting when you can see somebody literally light up or have this realization in the moment that is not only transformative for them, but healing, you know, somebody that we both know, David Heppard, you know, he talks about, we don't change, we heal. And I think that that's very, very True for everybody. Especially though, for the incarcerated population. And then. And, you know, selfishly, the podcast, it's like the beautiful souls of our hosts, yourself included. You know, demar, Red, Cambo, Anthony, you all are just fantastic humans, and I'm glad to get to be around you on a regular basis. I also just think that it's really empowering for people to tell their own story and to reclaim that narrative. I don't think there's anything I care about more, honestly.

[Vic Chopra]

I'd have to agree. I think this is the thing that I'm out of. My many years in this career in media and being a creative. This is what I'm most proud of. I love what you said about the shared humanity in those interactions. Right? Because, like, when we're inside and we're doing time, yes, we build solid relationships inside that are super, super loving and impactful and needed. But there's also this craving for connection to the outside world. So when you bring the outside in, when community members come in, whether it's through events, whether it's through education, that helps us feel in that shared humanity. It gives us a sense of agency back where we feel like, okay, we're feeling human again. Right? Because prison can be so dehumanizing, and it eliminates choice. It eliminates agency in a lot of aspects of our life. So to get that shared connection, the agency, to just have a conversation with, quote, unquote, a regular person, right? Somebody that's not a prisoner, it is so impactful and it's so positive, and it restores so much of that humanity. So then I want to ask you, what message do you have for your hometown community outside the walls of the prison in Walla Walla? Right. And communities like this one.

[Rachel Check]

You know, I've been waiting a long time to deliver this message. I absolutely love my hometown. There's a lot of pride in Walla Walla, and there's good reason to be. We have an amazing community just in terms of, like, people rallying around each other and supporting each other, and local businesses and three colleges and arts. And there's some famous people that have a lot of us in town. Talk about, like, all roads lead to Walla Walla. Because if you travel all over the world, you will meet people. They're like, I know Walla Walla. I know somebody that went to college there. Or, I've been there. And you're like, how is this possible for a town that's like, four hours from Seattle and kind of in the middle of nowhere? But I think that what would make the community even better is more people coming in to the prison, because it really is this separated community. And those that know and that work there or who go in as a volunteer, they know what I'm talking about. You will find some of the most intelligent, gifted humans. And then also, I think we always heal in relationship. Right. Change happens in relationship. And so if you have your own healing to do, if you have your own journey that you're on, there's no better place than being in a program or a classroom or whatever in prison to do that, because everybody's on that same journey. The people inside who are programming are on the path towards transformation. And then also, you know, this might be obvious, but people get out of prison.

[Vic Chopra]

Most people get out 95% at least.

[Rachel Check]

Yeah. So they're coming back into our community. I mean, Anthony is a great example of that. And he felt so embraced by the Walla Walla community, Even though he's not from there, he chose to stay in the town where the prison is at that he did his time at. Like, think about that. Like, that's amazing. There's thought leadership in people who have done time. And wouldn't we want them to be part of our community? Like, I want people who actually have been on the other side of it and experienced those things, solving the problems or being part of the solution. That would be my message to Walla Walla and other communities like, it is. Volunteer your time. Volunteer as a participant, Come into the cultural events, literally call up the prison like I did, and just be like, hey, what do you got for me? You know, it's not hard. It's really not hard. And you will be shocked and amazed at the experience that you have. It's not what you expect.

[Anthony Colbert]

Here I am.

[Kiffin Allington]

Salam. Salam. Salam alaykum. First, I want to give thanks to. To God, because without God, we wouldn't be here right now. I want to acknowledge and give thanks to the brothers and sisters who put this all together. So I want to talk about Demar Nelson. Believe it or not, I have seen this man many times, but we have only spoken about, I'll say about 10 times. So what I'm getting at is this man barely knows me, but since the beginning, he has always been kind. He has helped unlock potential in us brothers, man. And I want to say thank you for unlocking that potential, for believing in us. And to me, that that's really big, man. I noticed that. And I want you to know, man, that we're very grateful, bro. Thank you. We don't have Anthony Covert with us today, but Anthony Colbert was lucky and he showed us and he gave us hope and motivation that, hey, man, if we make a change and we be better, we can make it up out of here a little bit early. And he started walking a different route a long time ago. I'm very grateful to have the privilege to know Anthony, and anybody who knows Anthony will tell you, man, he's a good dude, man. So thank you to Anthony Colbert. I know know you wasn't here to see it, but if you see this man, thank you. We greatly appreciate you.

[Vic Chopra]

Sante Sana Shukrona, similar to Rachel Kiffin Allington, a resident of Walla Walla, came into the prison for the first time to the Juneteenth event, and, man, did it shift her world significantly. Anthony was able to chat with her about the experience. Let's listen to that conversation.

[Anthony Colbert]

Hey, this is AC Anthony cover with concretemma Podcast, and I'm here with Kiffin Allington. Recently you was able to experience the African American Juneteenth event at the Washington State Penitentiary. And being someone that is attuned to energy, what was it like just going into the parking lot before you even reached into the facility?

[Unknown Speaker]

I'd say, you know, like, the couple days leading up to it, I was a little bit nervous, just not knowing what to expect. I'd never been into a facility like that before. But I kind of kept recalling this moment where I had gone to a fundraiser for the Star project, you know, and. And I remember they were showing these little clips of these programs that they have, you know, in. In prisons where, you know, people are going in and they're sitting and they're chatting and going through, you know, these sessions with people. And in that moment, I thought to myself, why do I feel like I'd be more comfortable sitting there than sitting in this room? You know, it's like I. I have a hard time kind of making conversation with people because I like to just dive super deep real quick and just talk about life, not talk about, like, surface things. And so I kind of just kept recalling that and thinking, well, maybe I'll feel like that in there. Who knows? You know, once we walked through that doorway into the gymnasium, it all just was, like, different, you know? Cause we had to walk quite a ways through the prison to get to where we were going. And that was like, wow, this is just crazy to see all of this nothingness, really. Everything is so sterile and hot and just, you know, it was just like, ugh, this has got to be a really difficult way to live. But once I walked through those doors, it was just like I felt completely at ease. I was not nervous, I was not worried. I honestly had to kind of do a double take and. And start to kind of put together who was who. I couldn't really tell if the people that I was getting introduced to were people who were there or if they were people who were visiting people who were there. And that just kind of shocked me.

[Anthony Colbert]

That's incredible in itself, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it was like. I got goosebumps. I mean, it was just. It was. Like I said before, it's kind of strange to call it an amazing experience, but it was. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life.

[Anthony Colbert]

Yeah, that's a huge statement. To say something is one of the most amazing experiences of your life. Right. Because I would take that. You've had lots of amazing experiences in your life, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. But not like life changing belief, changing perception, changing stereotype, changing. You know, I mean, it's like, it's not very often you get a chance to think about your stereotypes and then be confronted with that stereotype, even though we all think, oh, I don't. I don't do that. We just do automatically as humans. And then to be just completely blown away by the result. And the conversations that I had, they were just wonderful.

[Anthony Colbert]

What would you say one of the biggest common misconceptions about people in prison would be after having this experience, that.

[Unknown Speaker]

They'Re not like us.

[Cheryl Strange]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, the song just comes to my head, but it's like, they are not.

[Rachel Check]

They.

[Unknown Speaker]

They're. Which is. It's all of us.

[Vic Chopra]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And some people just happen to be there.

[Sean Murphy]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And some of the people happen to be here. It's like, I. I just kept thinking to myself, oh, my gosh, if everybody could have this experience, like, the world would be a different place.

[Anthony Colbert]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

If there's certain places of employment who are willing to go up and have that type of an experience in order to then employ people when they come out.

[Rachel Check]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

How amazing would that be? Yeah, it would just change the world.

[Anthony Colbert]

And I think it's interesting that you say that.

[Rachel Check]

Right.

[Anthony Colbert]

Because we do have people that go up there and experience it on the daily.

[Rachel Check]

Right.

[Anthony Colbert]

You have officers that work there, administration staff that work there, but they maintain these ideologies or these beliefs about the people inside of there. They still retain them even though they see transformation. Right. And they see this catalyst and this want for change, but yet they maintain this perception that people on the inside are still less than. What could that possibly stem from?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I would imagine, you know, I did remind myself that everybody that was there, they had to probably check X amount of boxes in order to be allowed to attend that. Right. So then there's a lot of other people that are in there that maybe aren't in that good of a space to be able to go attend something like that.

[Sean Murphy]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And. And we don't ever hear about anything that I witnessed in that room that day. All we hear about is the fights or somebody died or, you know, like.

[Sean Murphy]

They don't talk about the 30 men.

[Anthony Colbert]

That'S graduated from college.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Anthony Colbert]

Or the 25 men that, that have graduated the GED plus program, or the X amount of men that are working to put programs together to help other people when they get out. Lifers, people that are told that they'll never have the opportunity to go home again. In classrooms, helping other people study to get better.

[Rachel Check]

Right.

[Anthony Colbert]

Those aren't the conversations you can have because that doesn't bring funding. Right. And I'll say that there are strives and efforts being made to kind of change this idea or this perception of about prison, but not in such a way where it sugarcoats the negative aspect of it as well.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Anthony Colbert]

I feel like a lot of the times they want to keep the both and. Because when you go on a tour out there, they'll take you to a place like the sustainable practices lab where you get to see the plants, you get to see the woodwork, you get to see the metal shop, and you get to see all these amazing things that people are doing. But when you put it into context, that's 75, roughly 80 people out of an entire population of 2,000 that get to participate in that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Anthony Colbert]

And yet it's broadcasted as if like everybody's getting to do this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Anthony Colbert]

Which it needs to be something everybody can do because everybody can then have the opportunity to grow.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. One of, one of my thoughts was all the people that aren't in a space where they're allowed to come and have an experience like this, or people who are in solitary confinement or whatever, what happens to them? How do they still remain somewhat connected to the real world?

[Vic Chopra]

World.

[Anthony Colbert]

That is the question of the century right now.

[Vic Chopra]

Right. We truly want to thank Kiffin for both taking the time to attend the Juneteenth event, but to also be so vulnerable and share her amazing experience inside the walls of the prison. And next, we want to take our listeners back to that day with something special. While Damar was inside emceeing the Juneteenth celebration at the penitentiary. The very. The very next day, Anthony had the opportunity to speak at the Walla Walla Juneteenth celebration as a free man. What you are about to hear are both of their profound words they shared on the mic those days.

[Sean Murphy]

How's everybody doing? Oh, man, I can't even hear nobody. How's everybody doing? Okay. Okay. You know. You know, today's Juneteenth, and Juneteenth represents a day of liberation. How many people out here feel free? Oh, man, I need to hear a little bit more than that. I feel like there's a lot more free people out here. I need to hear it. There we go. There we go. This day coins a special day for me. I was given to a system where they told me I was going to do 36 years in the penitentiary. You know, 16 of those years later, I found myself out here with y'all. That's called transcendence. That's called opportunity. But the thing about it is it takes a community. And so one of the things that I like most is a quote from a. I like to say, eclectic and moving person that I found as an idol in my life named Fred Hampton. Make some noise for Fred. Rest in peace, man. You know, he had a saying where he said, where there's people, there's power. So when I say there's people, I want y'all to say, there's power. You guys ready? Where there's people. Where there's people. And I see a lot of power out here today.

[Damar Nelson]

One of the things that I study while I do my time is evolution. I love evolution. No matter where we are in life, we can grow. And I realized in order for me to get through this, I got to be able to grow, too, because I'm gonna get out, and I'm gonna be weird. I ain't gonna fit in. They can see prison on you. That's the worst feeling, bro, to get out of here and people can see incarceration on you because you've been so separated. That's what this place will do to you, man. You don't know how to fit into a place that you come from. I'm a free person. I come from freedom. When I'm around anybody that's free, that should be natural to me. That's like flying with birds. Why should I struggle against that? Right?

[Sean Murphy]

You know, this journey I've been on wasn't an easy journey. I grew up in foster homes, lost my identity trying to figure out who I was. I had a system. Tell me who I was supposed to be. And I ain't ashamed of my journey. I ain't ashamed of going to prison. I own that. You know, as an 18 year old kid, I had some decisions to make and I just made all the wrong ones, you know, and it took 16 years for me to figure it out. It really took me about five to figure out I didn't like prison. How many people out here have somebody that they know or heard of that's in prison right now? Let me see some hands. You know, that's a lot of hands up. You know, we can't forget about our brothers and sisters that's behind these walls. We're in a city right now where there's another city inside of this city called Walla Walla State Penitentiary. You know, there's a lot of brothers up there that deserve this opportunity to be out here with us as well. That also transcended their journeys and transformed who they are. You know, these systems were designed to fail us. They were designed to entrap people of color.

[Damar Nelson]

I like Malcolm X because when you read his book, he goes through four stages of growth. And I often question what would them stages of growth be if he was still alive. When he was a little boy, he went from Malcolm Little. Then when he started running the streets, he called himself Red. When he found Islam, he became Malcolm X. Now in each stage of his growth, he was learning something about himself. Whether false, true. Then when he found out there was more, he became Malik El Shabazz. I go to the Mecca, I learn everything I thought to, knew to be true. Now I'm somebody else and. And I start to ask myself, where am I stuck at? Because I'm in a prison where I'm observing a bunch of people that's stuck. And there's some areas of my life, I'm going to keep it all real. I'm stuck too. An institution is powerless against the power of your mind, man. That's why some of you guys might rub up against me and it might seem like I don't got no time, but I don't have time to be stuck. I done everything that I could do and change every box and I still can't go home to him, her and her.

[Sean Murphy]

You know, a lot of the times when we're young. Let me speak for myself. When I was young, I was trying to fill somebody else's shoes. I used to look around the hood and see a bunch of people doing a lot of things. And I was like, you know what? I want to try they shoes on. In the midst of trying all these other shoes on, I never figured out what kind of shoes I could wear. I went from state LSIs to Jordans, baby. I got to put my own shoes, shoes on. There's a lot of people up in that prison, man, that got some power. And I ain't talking about administration. I'm talking about the individuals that every day have to lock down in that cell and figure out what are they going to do to make sure that they're comfortable. You know, I just left a bunch of brothers, man, that got families out here that are struggling. Our communities need our black men.

[Damar Nelson]

And I'm talking to you as my son in front of everybody. Don't nobody vouch, validate you, bro. You're not about to get it from the school, the streets, the game, social media. Don't nobody validate you. I'm gonna do that. I'm your dad. I'm telling you that.

[Sean Murphy]

You're strong.

[Damar Nelson]

You're strong, you're smart, you're intuitive, you're loving. You're respectful. You already got me beat. You don't even care about gangs. I called you and asked you a while ago, how do you feel about games? It's like, oh, Dad, I mean, that's kind of corny. I mean, I'd be watching. I'm like, tell me why you said so, Dad.

[Sean Murphy]

I watch.

[Damar Nelson]

People at school aren't from a hood. They create a clique and then go get rivals.

[Red]

Who does that?

[Damar Nelson]

That's who. What you said, hey, and that's the truth, man.

[Sean Murphy]

You know, sometimes everything that we do always falls amongst deaf ears. But I'm out here to make some noise for the people behind them fences, walls and bars. I'm out here screaming for them so y'all can hear us. You know, I might be out here, but my heart's still there because my brothers are still there. You know, we ain't all free till we all free. It takes effort, but it takes us as a community, as a collective to be able to change the things that we have been enduring for too long. A day of liberation, right? 12 days ago, I was liberated. I've been out 12 days. In these 12 days, I've got to see some things. You know, I got my own bank account. You know, a lot of things have changed in 16 years. One thing that I know is where there's people, I can lean on those people. We have the power to be able to invoke, change the Way we invoke change is by getting involved. These systems are steadily destroying us from the inside out. They're keeping people locked up for 60, 70 years. Before I left, I knew like two or three 18, 19 year old kids with 60, 70 years. What do these numbers even mean? When you look in the mirror, I want you to think about that young man or that young woman that's sitting behind them bars. That's you. That's a reflection. What are we doing to help our communities? What are we doing to change our communities? What are we doing to make sure the person to our left and the person to our right is okay? You know, when the house shuts down, the generator runs it back up. You know, this system needs to be shut down, but we don't want that generator to kick back on. And the way that we make that happen is by ensuring that we taking the time to make sure that our communities are healthy. What does that mean? There's a lot of things that go into community. One of those things that's most important is unity. That's the first Kwanzaa principle. Unity. Una moja. And the biggest thing about unity is look around, look at everybody around you today. Now really look around. Look at all these different people from all different walks of life. We're all here to celebrate one thing. This is unity. This is what it looks like when we come together. You know, I have a firm belief that when you break bread with somebody that's family, well, I saw a whole bunch of people eating in this park today. That means that we all family in some degree. I broke bread with y'all. Y'all broke bread with me. You may not even know it, but you did it. There's one thing that I've always held on to, is what the people before me did. I think of the Malcolms, the Martins, the Assatas, you know, all a lot of these people were pavers. They paved pathways for us to be able to have an opportunity. We need to take advantage of those opportunities. Because when we take advantage of opportunities, we're able to then understand the things that are happening to us. Education is important because you get to learn about the things that they did, the tools that they used against you. You know, my brother, Demar Nelson, man, that brother's still locked up. He's been locked up 17 years. He got a wife and a family. And he wrote this thing before I left.

[Anthony Colbert]

Left.

[Sean Murphy]

And I want to share with y'all, if that's all right. Is that all right?

[Damar Nelson]

Yeah.

[Sean Murphy]

Let me hear it again. Is that all right?

[Vic Chopra]

Yeah.

[Sean Murphy]

Okay. This is by Damar Nelson. He says, I am a son, I am a father, I am a husband. I am a praying man. We all desire to be seen for who we really are. It's where we find some. Someone who can see us. In life, you learn to accept that you can't reveal yourself to everyone. You can't. So you learn to dance between seen and unseen. It's an art that hurts us all. Before I vanished into a system not built to see me, I clutched the dreams of the innocent black boy who wanted to be everything I imagined in order for me to survive. Sixteen years later, I had to nurse my childhood faith by believing it's never too late to be what I might have been. My son loves me so I can be the father I always dreamed of having. Even from my prison cell. I'm the son my mother dreamed of having. Today I love her with the love she nursed me with. My wife waits with the hope that soon her prayers will be answered and we can finally be seen as we truly are a family. From behind fences and gun towers. My presence transcends fighting to return to my community so that I can show the world I'm a son, I'm a father, I'm a husband. See me. My past doesn't make me invisible.

[Damar Nelson]

But what I'm here to tell you guys is, no matter what, if you guys don't see me two years from now, if I'm still here three years years from now, please, man, don't be stuck. Thank you.

[Vic Chopra]

Honestly, it still gives me goosebumps every time I hear their words. And I feel so lucky to have witnessed both of these speeches in person. Demar and Anthony truly embody the power of transformation and are prime examples of what is possible with positive programming and community support. Creating a shared sense of humanity coupled with the restoration of agency in your life, whether it's behind bars or out in the free world, can be life changing. The opportunities given to us to better ourselves when we're incarcerated benefits everyone. 95% of incarcerated individuals will be coming back to the community. They are our future friends and neighbors. Doesn't it just make sense to give them a chance to be successful and contributing members of society? What is the alternative? Just something to think about. And now we take it back to Red for the conclusion of his history report on the resident Governance council. Such a crazy story so far, right? I think about how much things have changed from the concrete mama days to now. You know, back then, the prison staff was just Going to let everyone kill each other in the penitentiary today, there's so many more opportunities for programming, education, and building community along with the infrastructure to support it all. Let me just say that I'm so glad I was incarcerated in the 2010s as opposed to the 1970s. Just saying. All right, Red, take it away.

[Red]

So let's get into it and talk about who they all were. First was the Confederated Tribes. For all the Native Americans and indigenous people, it's said that they struggled because they were more loyal to their individual tribes than their group as a whole. The group was further weakened by rampant alcoholism, with some members dying from it. Second was the Chicano Club. This group had each other's backs and also opened a cantina that had hard liquor and working ladies available. But they continually fought with the Native Americans and both clubs suffered multiple deaths. Third was the Lifers with Hope, who had a large membership base and their purpose was self help and community service. You had to have a life sentence, and the warden, B.J. ray, favored this club by giving them extra perks by getting to leave prison to visit their families. And it was speculated that the warden liked these guys because they operated closest to the old Khan Boss system, which was how things ran before the rgc. Fourth was what was called the Gays Club, or in today's language, it would be the queer or LGBTQ club, Though there were different dynamics, like if you identified as a cisgender man or transgender woman, or if you were gay because you always were, lived a gay lifestyle to gain protection, or chose to engage in sexual activity in exchange for drugs and alcohol. The Gay Liberation army was an offshoot and were blamed for a lot of murders and even some bombings, which gained them respect in the prison house hierarchy. Number five was Alcoholics Anonymous. It said this group got its name from the outside group, but was actually known for drug running, murders and buying and selling alcohol in the joint. Pruno was prison made alcohol made of fruit, sugar and yeast. And I can tell you for sure that I've never tried this. I'm just saying. Number six was the Prisons Automobile association, who built custom cars. They fought with the Alcoholics Anonymous group a lot and ended up disbanding because a bunch of their guys got killed. Number seven was the Black Prisoners Forum Unlimited. These guys fought with the bikers and there were several professional boxers in their group who led a boxing program. This was by far the largest group, so they had a lot of power in the prison, both by numbers and muscle. Number eight were the Born Again Christians Climbing Club. In the book Walls of Secrecy by Kelly Messinger, it said this group was mostly made up of sex offenders and never had much power. Enough said about that though. Number nine was the Motorcycle association, also known as the Biker Club. The way they operated is if you had already been in an outlawed motorcycle gang, then you were automatically accepted. But if you weren't, then you had to prospect for three months to see if they would allow you in. We'll go deeper on this club in another episode episode because there's a lot more I can tell you. I know this is a lot to take in and I'm really just scratching the surface. So you can find all this and more in three books. Unusual Punishment by Christopher Murray, the One Eyed Man Is King by Gordy Graham and Walls of Secrecy by Kelly Messinger. Drugs and violence ran rampant through most of the 70s until 1979 when much of the prison leadership changed and they started sending club leaders to other joints and other states by the midnight Express, which was a secret flight to move high profile inmates. The administration had decided to take back the power and the resident government council was abolished. The only clubs that survived were the Lifers With Hope, the Black Prisoners, Forum Unlimited and the Bikers Club. So what's the more moral of this story? I think it's that just because things didn't work in the 70s doesn't mean that it was all a bad idea. Learning from our past mistakes, both the inmate population and administration have found better ways to work together. Sure, it's not perfect, but we're still trying and moving forward. What's the alternative? We kind of have to. So here's my message to you. Our listeners take this history lesson to heart. When you're feeling like the world is imploding and all is lost, lost. Despite our very difficult circumstances, we're still here on the inside, pushing through all of it. So you can too.

[Vic Chopra]

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of Concrete Mama, the podcast. On our next episode, we take you into the process of intake and arrival and what each of us, us, your hosts, experience when they first got to prison. Here's a sneak peek.

[Damar Nelson]

I knew I was in big trouble. But being young, you don't fully grasp that you're no longer in control. Eventually, I went to trial on my case, which lasted a month. And after a guilty verdict, I stood in front of a judge as he handed down a sense over 30 years. I was only 21 years old.

[Vic Chopra]

Don't miss it.

[Rachel Check]

We want to acknowledge Adobo, the streaming platform that reaches nearly 1 million incarcerated individuals across the United States. Thanks to their collaboration, we're empowering people to rewrite their stories, and we're able to support each organization's mission to make education equitable and humanize those who are justice impacted. That's it for this episode of Concrete Moments. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bentz is our editor, audio engineer, and graphic designer. Megan Sanchez handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and me, Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla and Washington State Doc have made this project possible. For more info, check out our show notes and you can write us with questions about the podcast at the email and address listed there. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. You can also subscribe to support us and get extra content. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.