Anthony (4:08)

Absolutely.

Damar (4:09)

And so coming here and finding somebody that I can march with, do the time with, share life with, man, we live together, we eat, we talk, we read. We're in book clubs together. It's everything that I need to stay on the journey that I'm on to get my life back. Just meeting you and then watching you go through your clemency hearing, you know, that was huge. You know, because it's something that I dream of. I got some. I'm a couple years until I got to go through clemency, but I got some legal stuff in the courts, and I'm always focused on my release. Absolutely. You know, and so just seeing you be resilient, you know, I thought for a long time, you know, when you hear about this stuff at Walla Walla, man, a lot of the dudes that I met coming out of Walla Walla was weird too.

Anthony (4:50)

Yeah.

Damar (4:51)

Because they allow the spirit of this place with all come every now and then. They allow that to kind of take them by storm. Right. And I was like, man, this brother's cool, man. He ain't strange. It was a blessing, man, to like, watch you go through your phase and get your life back. Cuz now we're just waiting like, any day you're gonna be gone, you know?

Anthony (5:11)

No, I appreciated the support, man. Going through that.

Damar (5:14)

It was an easy man.

Anthony (5:15)

And you've been a huge support for me for that.

Damar (5:17)

Yeah.

Anthony (5:18)

That consistency you was talking about that you needed, I needed also, and you gave me that, bro. You've been a constant and a consistent force in my life to help push me to be where I need to be. It's. It's definitely hard.

Damar (5:29)

Yeah.

Anthony (5:30)

Knowing that I'm not gonna have that consistency, man.

Damar (5:33)

We're gonna have to do it on the phone and.

Anthony (5:35)

Yeah.

Damar (5:36)

When you get out there, until they bring you back in, man, we could keep doing what we do, you know.

Anthony (5:41)

But I'm looking forward to you coming out there.

Damar (5:43)

I know it, man. I know, man. Just whatever you do, you know, we'll show the world who you are, man. Yeah. Don't ever be afraid to do that. Absolutely. I'm gonna hold it down right here.

Anthony (5:55)

Absolutely, bro. I'm gonna hold it down out there, man, until I share your story too, man. You know, until you're out there to share it.

Damar (6:02)

Yeah. Take my fire, man.

Anthony (6:03)

I got you, man. I'm spread your salt all over the place, man. You know what I'm saying? Bad.

Damar (6:08)

Absolutely. Thank you, man.

Anthony (6:09)

I appreciate, I love you, bro. Appreciate you. Everything you've taught me, you know, I appreciate you coming and sharing your story.

Damar (6:16)

Yeah, absolutely.

Anthony (6:17)

This ain't an easy thing to share your story, and I feel privileged to hear it, you know, I'm saying multiple times.

Damar (6:24)

Yeah.

Anthony (6:24)

And I learned something from it every time I hear it. I grow every time I hear it, you know, because it shows that my life's not much different than yours. We have a lot of similarities in our lives, you know?

Damar (6:35)

Yeah.

Anthony (6:36)

And I get to learn from that. It's actually looking in the mirror and I get to learn.

Damar (6:41)

It's our story.

Anthony (6:42)

Absolutely. Yes, sir.

Damar (6:44)

Right. Love you, Blank. Love you too, boss.

Vic Chopra (7:01)

That's all you're gonna get, man.

Anthony (7:03)

That's it.

Damar (7:05)

I, I, I appreciate.

Vic Chopra (7:14)

This is Concrete Mama, the podcast. I'm your host, showrunner and producer, Vic Chopra.

Rachel Check (7:20)

And this is Rachel Check, showrunner and producer.

Vic Chopra (7:23)

Well, my friends, we made it. At the beginning of our journey together, I asked you to walk down this yellow brick road with us. And here we are, the end of the road, the final destination as we close out our first season. And wow, what a journey it has been.

Rachel Check (7:39)

We've brought you down the rabbit hole and into the world of the Washington State Penitentiary here in my hometown of Walla Walla, Washington. You've gotten to know our hosts, Vic Demar, Anthony and Red, as you learned about their lives and the stories that they've shared.

Vic Chopra (7:54)

And not only that, we've all shared deep, personal stories and vulnerable parts of ourselves with you, our listeners. We hope somewhere along the way, some part of you resonated with our words, whether you're out in the free world or listening to us on your tablet while in your cell, in the day room, or even out on the yard, that our stories made an impact on you.

Rachel Check (8:14)

For some of you, I know how much you've loved Red's history reports, and you also got to know him more personally when he shared his own life journey. And for other dear listeners, you've perhaps received some nuggets of wisdom from Vic as our host and throughout his his journey of addiction and sobriety.

Vic Chopra (8:31)

Or as you just heard, it's the unwavering love and brotherhood our hosts, Demar and Anthony continue to demonstrate for each other. Throughout this season, we've taken you into their worlds as they both navigate life without the physical presence of the other. And as I mentioned in our last episode that we had something special planned for the finale. Before we wrap this episode, we'll reunite our resident brothers for a beautiful conversation looking back at our first season, how they still stay connected and plan to reunite as freemen in the future.

Rachel Check (9:00)

But before we send it back to Damar and Anthony, we wanted to offer a special slice of the amazing creative minds doing time at the Washington State Penitentiary. We wanted to end our first season with this because our team and our extended team of community partners are dedicated to bringing more opportunities for art and creativity inside the walls for the incarcerated population. Like this podcast has provided a chance for expression and healing. All forms of creative purpose can really be a bright light in a place like this that's inherently drab and isolated from the world. It can restore humanity, provide a chance to tell your story and transform your life for the positive in ways you can't even imagine.

Vic Chopra (9:46)

I can personally testify that this is the truth for me. I used screenwriting as an outlet while I was incarcerated to express myself while crafting stories that I wanted to tell when I was released, both about me personally and characters I created. It was truly cathartic and empowering, and I'm so excited to be able to share these stories with the world someday, just like we're doing with Concrete Mama. When the free world gets to experience art created by justice impacted individuals, it offers you a glimpse inside of our journeys and hopefully opens your eyes to our shared humanity.

Rachel Check (10:18)

Let's send it over to Damar and Red as they introduce you to several amazing artists currently inside the Washington State Penitentiary country who share a bit about themselves, their art, and their creative process.

Damar (10:43)

You know, one of the things that people don't realize is that, man, there's a lot of art in here. All forms of art, you know, mental art. People that be use their hands. Hands express with their heart.

Kenny (10:55)

How long have you been down, Daniel?

Vic Chopra (10:57)

15 years.

Damar (10:58)

This is like somebody I know growing up, man. He's a dope individual, and I wanted to talk to him about his music, man. What's your name, bro? That's what's up. What's your name, man?

Anthony (11:09)

My name's Kenny.

Damar (11:10)

Kenny, man. And so what a lot of people don't know about Kenny is, man, Kenny's my neighbor, man. And I don't look through my window before, man, and seen him inside his room jamming out. What's your name? My name is Reese. When I finally get established, I'll be going by NLB Sleeves.

Kenny (11:28)

The one major thing that I know about you, man, is that you're a great artist. How long have you been doing this?

Vic Chopra (11:34)

Yeah, about 11 years.

Kenny (11:36)

So you started in here?

Vic Chopra (11:37)

Yeah, yeah, I learned in here.

Kenny (11:39)

That's wild.

Vic Chopra (11:39)

Yeah.

Kenny (11:40)

By looking at your stuff, I think you've been doing it your whole life.

Vic Chopra (11:42)

Well, I appreciate it. We like to achieve goals. There was a drive in me to want to be something more than just an inmate. I wanted to feel like I had value, that I was a part of something.

Damar (11:54)

So, you know, I know you do music, man. You know, let's talk about that. Like, how did you get into music? How did you even know? Because, I mean, I ain't gonna lie. You kind of shocked me when I we started talking about your music, bro. So how did you, you know, how did you run into that? Really?

Anthony (12:07)

Really? I just started rapping, you know, from our youth. Freestyling, you know, being with the homies, walking around, you know, we just start freestyling, rapping. So I knew I had it in me, but I never really got a chance to take it serious until 2015, when a friend of mine put me in the studio and was like, hey, man, you know? And I just started freestyling. And then he gave me a pen and pad and taught me how to write.

Damar (12:30)

I actually learned my first song when.

Anthony (12:32)

I was in prison.

Damar (12:33)

I kind of just taught myself from there on.

Anthony (12:35)

And I'm not real great at my guitar or singing, but that definitely is something I would never give up or.

Damar (12:41)

Trade for anything else. It takes me to a different place.

Anthony (12:44)

It's pretty cool.

Damar (12:45)

This is something that I kind of, like, acquired and chilled, and I'm inspiring to be a rap artist or, you know, just put my thoughts on paper and let everybody feel how I feel. I can see myself hitting stages, man, collaborating with big artists all the way around the world. But nlb, that stands for Never Looking Back. And when I came up with that, I was in imu. I'm in the hole. And I just hit a point in my life where I'm like, I just got to stop looking back, bro, and focus on my future and focus on getting money and becoming an icon in the world.

Vic Chopra (13:19)

Growing up, I've seen my grandpa paint him, and I would watch Bob Ross together. So they bought me a little Bob Ross painting kit. My main thing is sceneries. I like to paint places I want to be. I've been incarcerated since I was 17, and there's a lot I haven't experienced. And so what I paint is places that I want to experience. If I can't put myself in that environment, it's hard for me to paint it.

Anthony (13:41)

I always had confidence in myself. But once I. Once I did do it, though, I really knew that I could really pursue it. So I was. That's when I kind of took it serious. Like, I'm gonna take it serious. Like, most people jump into the music, but they don't take it serious. Soon as I jumped in it, I went and got my business license, llc. I went and did everything I was supposed to do. So I went straight forward. You know, I'm like, I'm about to. I'm about to make something of it. But, you know, prison. Prison stops it all.

Damar (14:08)

So there was a little book that I had, and I grew up listening to country music.

Anthony (14:12)

And so this little book had a.

Damar (14:13)

Couple songs in it that I recognized, some old George Strait songs. It was like, three chords, and the.

Anthony (14:18)

Guy showed me how to play the.

Damar (14:19)

Three chords, and I sat in there for, you know, hours and hours Just.

Anthony (14:23)

Strumming on this guy's guitar. I don't know. Thank God, you know, because it really.

Damar (14:26)

Changed everything for me. I learned that song, and once I.

Anthony (14:30)

Was able to kind of sing it a little bit and play it and.

Damar (14:33)

Get that feeling, you know, you almost.

Anthony (14:34)

Get the tingles, you know, because you hit that note just with the guitar.

Damar (14:38)

And the whole world lines up. Anytime I ever hit IMU or go to the hall, it's just like the first thing I do is like, can I get some paper and a pen? And it's great. I get straight to it and pass time for hours. And then I never even knew it was a skill I really had until somebody heard me rap and was like, bro, you got some skill in that category, bro, you should get out of the shot. I remember you shared a story with me, man, when your mom first seen your art.

Vic Chopra (15:01)

Both of our Easter services that we went to, I did a painting. And you know, it was there up in front. Last year was this the warrior that I painted. And I was wondering why they didn't weren't saying anything about it. I mean, like, they've looked at it and I'm like, how come they're not saying anything? And then so I pointed it out to Mom. I'm like, did you see that warrior painting? She looked, and the look on her face was just priceless. And she said. She said, you painted that? And I said, yes. And it sounded like she didn't hear me. That was a priceless gift. I mean, that was worth going through everything and all the years of painting to get to that point, to see that look on the mom's face, you know, how proud she was. It was priceless. It was amazing.

Anthony (15:46)

A lot of stuff I rap about is. Is. Is kind of painful for me. You know what I'm saying? So it's kind of. It helps. It helps me a lot to deal with the issues that I'm going through by expressing them through my words and my music.

Damar (16:00)

There's a lot of us, all of.

Anthony (16:01)

Us can kind of play together. People that have been here for a while.

Damar (16:04)

We all have songs together. We have concerts outside every once in a while. I still got some of the posters that are up from the concerts that we make.

Anthony (16:12)

We have people in the art classes.

Damar (16:13)

And things like that that are able to do that for us and kind of just all works out together, man, I love making music. I love putting my thoughts on the paper and letting the world know my past, my history, my present, what I'm going to do What I, you know, what I can do, that's what I feel like music gives me opportunity to do.

Vic Chopra (16:31)

It's just a painting, right? You're not giving money on somebody's table, but what you're doing is you're giving something that gives them hope. I just want it to count for something, you know? The reality is we're going to get out at some point in time. And when we get out, does a community want people who have been shunned and never given an opportunity to be something different? And if that's the case, then the person who's getting out of prison back into society is going to be the same person that was incarcerated. That person that got incarcerated, committed a crime, and this is going to repeat over and over again. The recidivism rate in Washington state is through the roof. But when you give somebody a chance, an opportunity to change and give them an outlet for that change, it changes them to the point where when they get out, they're a completely different person and they're not going to commit the crimes that they did when they first came in. Prison becomes a benefit. Prison becomes something that's like, man, it sucks that I went in there. But you know what? It was. It was a blessing in disguise. It was one of those things where it's like, I. I utilized my opportunities, I was given an opportunity, I. I took advantage of it, and now I'm way better for it. We need that. If you just walk away, somebody, they're not going to change. You got to give them the outlets for change.

Vic Chopra (18:07)

I fully believe that art has the power to change the world. That's why I'm a filmmaker and a creative. And hearing stories like these just reminds me that there are so many amazing artists who are currently incarcerated that are ready to share their gifts with us. I witnessed it with my own eyes, and I'm so grateful to Red and Demar for bringing light to these talented humans.

Rachel Check (18:30)

And now we bring you a moment this whole season has been leading up to. We started the journey down the yellow brick road with the story of two brothers bonded by their love for each other and the transcendence of their life behind bars. Then separated by the gift of freedom for just one of them. Just for you, our listeners, Here is the reunion of Demar and Anthony, who come together again to reflect on this season. Their lives now separated in the physical world, but forever bonded.

Damar (19:09)

So what's going on, man? Concrete mom of the podcast, man. We wrapping up the season, get a chance to spend some time and conversate with my guy, man. And since you've been out and just talk about just everything that we've been able to experience, how we feel about the podcast, how we feel about who it's affecting, the people on the outside, the inside, our team, the world, man. How you. How you feel about that, man?

Anthony (19:32)

Oh, man, that's good. This is your co host, Anthony. You know, here with the More. It's good to be back. The reunion. We back, baby. You know, it's the first time we got to sit down and really get to talk about where we at. You know, I've been out almost 11 months now. June 10 seems a fleeting, fleeting time away, and it feels good to be back here, bro. How you been, man?

Damar (19:51)

Bro, I mean, I've been blessed. I. You know, to think about how far we've come, to think about how many lives have been touched just based on the idea, the creativity of what we were trying to actually create, you know, from. From being inside of a cell with an ideal issue, man, it was just. It was just a concept, you know, But I'm blessed, bro. I'm blessed that I'm still able to communicate with you. I'm blessed that the world is able to experience, you know, this whole platform, that's a blessing, man. It's giving me hope.

Anthony (20:26)

Amen.

Damar (20:27)

How about yourself?

Anthony (20:28)

Oh, man, it's been. It's been good, man. You know, there's been some ups and some downs. Just life is a lot different Sometimes you expect it to go away when you get out, but things change, you know, But I just been feeling really blessed, man. You know, blessed to be out here in this world where I get to see things that I've always dreamed about seeing, do things I've always dreamed about doing. You know, going in at 18 years old, you know, you don't know what your life can hold. But now being out here, 34 years old, it has really opened my eyes to what I missed. You know, people sometimes, you know, we heard the saying on this side, oh, you ain't missing nothing out there, you know? You know, we hear that all the time. But now you really are, you know, you. You miss congregating with family, friends, you know, the people that were there with you since day one, you know, the people that are waiting on your return. You get to congregate with those people. You get to make plans and meet up with them and thank them for supporting you throughout your whole journey. But it's been good, man. And the impact, you know, this, it's such a creative way how we've went about this, that the impact has been more than I could have ever imagined with people and hearing their feedback from hearing our stories. That's dope to me.

Damar (21:39)

Yeah, it is, man. And being, you know, being able to re reunite here with you today is, Is. Is an inspiration because, you know, I watched you leave, man. You know, I watched you leave the prison. Yeah. And like we said in the beginning of the. The season, you know, you were in the prison, now you're outside of it, man. You know, that's a crazy juxtaposition to see you on both ends and then have that hope alive and then run into people who still to this day, like, people come up to me. There's a piece of you that still lives here.

Anthony (22:14)

Yeah.

Damar (22:15)

People talk about your spirit, your spirit, who you were, what you represented for them, how you help them. And so just the whole. This whole platform is. That's what it's really all about. When we talk about how we developed into this concrete mama podcast with our team, Unincarcerated Productions, and what this, what this art form is really evolved into, the creativity of it is all about helping other people, just like you were helping other people on the inside. That's what it started from. It started as an idea, but it's about helping other people.

Anthony (22:51)

Right.

Damar (22:51)

You know, so.

Anthony (22:52)

No, absolutely. That's really cool, you know, and I think that's powerful because when I think about it, we were just two guys in the cell talking about, man, how do we reach more people? You know, how do we go and we make our voices heard outside of these fences and these walls, you know, not for our own self gratification or anything like that, but because we wanted people to know that there's stories in here, man. There's people in here that had whole lives and they've been ripped from them, and how do we get them to be hurt again? Right? The changes people are making. You know, in the state of Washington, there is no parole board. And so if you get hit with 150 years, you're doing 150 years, right? But people are still getting all that time and wanting to do something different and make a change. They're changing themselves, trying to change their environment. You know, we hear all the. All of Red's history pieces, right, about people. These were. These were things where people were trying to change the environment, right? Some good, some bad, however you want to call it, depending on what side you're on. But at the same time, I feel like what we're doing here Bro has been such an honor to do this with you, fam. Because we're able to give not only ourselves, but we're giving something that's going to resonate with people.

Damar (24:06)

Yeah.

Anthony (24:06)

And it has resonated with people.

Damar (24:08)

It has, man. The look on people's faces on a tear. People are following us, following the creativity of it. People out there in the world, they're following it. And I think that's what's unique, because there's a lot of creatives inside of the prison system, right? I mean, I often say that, you know, some of the best basketball players, artists, writers, they're the people that never got a chance to make it on the NBA floor.

Anthony (24:34)

For real.

Damar (24:34)

Some of the best artists. And there is here absolute talent here, and it's vibrating all across the United States. There's men and women on these yards that are extremely creative, man, talented man. And life circumstances just got the best of them, so they never got an opportunity to showcase that talent. And so with us, with the Concrete Mama podcast, we get an opportunity to kind of showcase what our talent was and in being thinkers and being creatives and having this space right here. And so. And I also want to really give a shout out to really just encourage people that are on the tears, too, and people that are in women's prisons and out there in the world, like, continue to follow your creative dreams. Because that's all we did, bro.

Anthony (25:20)

That's it, man. That. It started with an idea, right? And then the idea grew. Legs, arms, a head, and started becoming functioning. Right? It's one thing to have a gift, but it's also one thing more to be able to have someone that believes in you, you enough to help you refine that gift. You know, on the tier, you see people that are phenomenal artists, and you'll watch people walk up to them like, hey, I want to learn how to draw and paint, and they help them refine the. The want to be creative, you know, I want to. I want to. I want to draw us to a point. You know, I'm saying, like, how important are the friends and families that we have in our lives that help support us on these journeys, right? For you, how. How important has that been for you, man?

Damar (26:01)

It's been big, bro. It's been big. This opportunity has allowed me and you, you know, you're my family, too. You know what I mean?

Anthony (26:10)

Absolutely.

Damar (26:11)

It's allowed us to maintain communication. When you get out on clemency and you're paroled and things like that, a lot of the People in the world, like our listeners out there, they don't necessarily understand the true detail of what that means. Right. Like, when you get out, you're not able to correspond with felons and things like that. Right. And so, absolutely, the gift that the podcast has kept giving is allowing us to continue to work together, bro. And so I get a chance to still speak with you, call you. We can feed off each other, encourage each other when something's not going well, I can run it past you. You can build me up. I could build you up and continue to be a brother. And also, the things that I've experienced just with my family and things like that, bro, it's like, my wife is extremely proud of me.

Anthony (26:57)

Amen.

Damar (26:58)

My son is listening. And I'm proud of that, man. I'm really proud of that, because I. I haven't said this, but this is the first time in a long time when it comes to. To truly, like, feeling like, okay, I know I don't have my freedom yet, but I am somebody, man. I have value. Like, I have a true gift.

Anthony (27:18)

Amen.

Damar (27:19)

I can get out today, and I know I would be successful. I have the right people around me. I have a family, a team out there. I could go make a difference in the world. I never. Sometimes I never really felt like that because I haven't got a chance to truly get my legs up under me, prove that. But I have something to offer the world.

Anthony (27:36)

Absolutely.

Damar (27:37)

I feel like that this has solidified that.

Anthony (27:40)

Hey, hey, for real, man, you know that. That in such a way. Because from day one, bro, you know, let's take it back to day one, you know, when we met at the table in the day room, and. And you was on the hunt for me because a brother, one of our mutual friends, Antoine, you know what I'm saying, was like, antoine.

Damar (28:00)

Hey, man, Antoine Davis, man. Good brother, man.

Anthony (28:03)

Absolutely. Hey, it' that's my guy. That's my bro, man. You know, and he. And he was a person that, you know, I'm saying that connected us without. Without even me knowing or you knowing that he was going to connect us, right? And so when we met up at that table, man, and we bared our hearts, man, like, hey, look, man, you know, I'm trying to figure it out. You're trying to figure it out. You know, let's. Let's bear arms together, man, you know what I'm saying? And push through this. This place, you know, where a lot of the times, bro, when you form bonds and, you know, they're saying, Oh, I just met this brother over a bowl of oatmeal, you know what I'm saying? And I feel like it became more than that, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is. You really are my brother, man. You know what I'm saying? And we was able to create something, you know what I'm saying, and push it forward. But like you said, when people get out, those bonds sometimes get broken because you're not allowed to communicate with your family no more. You know, just because you're free, you have to leave everybody else captive. You know, that was that. That's a tough concept to wrap around. So, you know, you get to wondering. You can't call, can't talk. But, man, we got this opportunity, bro, to be able to stay in touch and be able to grow with each other, man. And I've watched nothing but people come up to me and say, bro, like, this thing that y' all created, man, has been changing our lives, has been changing so many things, and been able to have so many opportunities for me to reconnect with, like, my family. You. There's a person that I met at work, bro, a young girl, and she talked about how she ain't talked to her dad.

Damar (29:39)

No.

Anthony (29:39)

You know, wrote him a letter.

Damar (29:41)

Her dad was locked up or something. Incarcerated.

Anthony (29:43)

Yes, her dad was incarcerated. Me, I think she hadn't talked to him, like, 20 years. 18. 20 years or something like that.

Damar (29:48)

Wow.

Anthony (29:48)

Right. And just never even really thought about it. Never thought about what he was going through until she heard our stories about how important it is to be connected, you know what I'm saying? I've caught. I've caught people, you know, I'm saying, around the corner, man, tearing up like, man, like impacted impact. Know what we're doing, bro, is helping people, you know, more than we ever thought, more than I could have ever imagined.

Damar (30:11)

Yeah.

Anthony (30:12)

You know, people are receiving the type of help, man, that you normally pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for through a therapist or something. Not to say that. You know what I'm saying? They're not good or anything like that, but I'm saying we're doing stuff, bro, and we're not licensed therapists or nothing like that. We're just bearing our hearts. We're bearing our hearts to give people something real, something to hang on to, bro. And that. That sits. That sits. That sits with me in. In a crazy way, because I would have never thought I'd have been able to impact so many people, you know, just by sharing my story, you know.

Damar (30:43)

And that Goes into a question I. I want to ask you. You know, being in certain positions, it. It comes with responsibility, and I felt the weight of that shift.

Anthony (30:52)

Yeah.

Damar (30:52)

Since we're doing this now, there's a responsibility that has come with that, that I'm fully capable of carrying. I'm okay with that. That. But how. How do you feel since your story has aired out there? Like, because now the way our team. And unincarcerated. We've edited the stories to where, you know, we. We take them through this. This life, this story. Right, right. They got to hear about you getting out, and then they finally got a chance to hear how you got out. What that was like. Hearing your hearing. What was that like for you? And then I'm gonna share with you what I heard on the back end in here, you know? Cause that's still vibrating in here right now.

Anthony (31:34)

Nah, for real, man. You know, there was a lot of other brothers that got out before me. You know what I'm saying? And, man, I'll say, like, a month or two ago, man, we had this opportunity to do, like, a speaking engagement at Whitman College, and some of those brothers that I was locked up with before, man, showed up, and they were free, and we kind of just sat down, we all went to Denny's, you know what I'm saying? Sat down, had, like, a little breakfast, and we kind of just talked about what transition has been like. And I think when you get to hear how other brothers out here are struggling or how other brothers still, you know, I'm saying, hold on to certain things, you know, when we share our stories, you know what I'm saying? These brothers are listening. They're listening to the part. They're like, man, I know what you feel. You know, there's brothers that wish they can contact with people that are still locked up, you know what I'm saying? I know one of them brothers is trying to come back and be a sponsor because he wants to reconnect. It has been so impactful because there's people out here, man, that see me one way. But when they hear my story, they're like, oh, man. And it's not no sympathy or, like, feeling sorry or anything like that. They're just like, oh, man, we would have never known, you know? And they're even more impacted. Like, man, we're proud of you, man. And I don't even know these people like that. It's not like hearing you're proud of you from someone that you've been close with, but it still felt different. To hear someone say, like, man, after listening to your story and where you're at, like, I'm proud of you, man. You're really making an impact. And then they see me out here in the community, you know what I'm saying? Still doing the same stuff I was doing in there. Community organizing, putting together events and trying to just be a light for other people, you know what I'm saying? And so they get to see that consistency. And that's one thing that I've been hearing a lot is people say, man, your consistency is impactful.

Damar (33:27)

Absolutely sticking with it. Yeah, Just sticking with it. I think hearing my story aired, like, I listen to it a lot. I listen to my story almost every weekend. I lay down before bed, listen to it, and, you know, I'm still, like, when I listen to it and I get to that part where the things me and my wife went through, I still cry like, it's not my story.

Anthony (33:51)

Yeah.

Damar (33:51)

But what I will say is, since my story has aired, I feel like a pieces of me have healed again. Like, you go through many stages of healing where you're like, wow, this feels better. I'm getting better in this area. It's not so heavy. I think me deciding to release my story on the platform in its totality, though, with my wife and you know how I am about my family, bro, I'm really protective and private for various reasons. I feel like I healed, though. I got lighter, feel better.

Anthony (34:27)

That's dope.

Damar (34:27)

And then all the people that have been healed because of that, even on my wife's end, you know, my wife has gotten a lot of feedback as well. She still sends our story to people, you know, and so. And I just think it's a really great fish hook for people out there around the world that have misconceptions about love, how. How you should love, what love should come with. With when we talk about the love aspect of it, and then just what people have been through, when you jump to. Jump to judgment, because that's a. A common theme, I think our podcast and our stories, it shatters a lot of that judgment. It calms it. Human beings are naturally judgmental, Right. We do that. We formulate opinions about people. Sometimes then we have to go back and revisit those and say, oh, once you learn this, or, oh, once a person says that. Okay, maybe I was wrong, but I think we do that for protective reasons. But it's changing the way people see us, bro.

Anthony (35:22)

It is, bro.

Damar (35:23)

You know what I mean?

Anthony (35:24)

It is. And, you know, I like to Attribute a lot of, like, you know what I'm saying, my growth from having the people around me that stuck with me. So when you talk about healing, bro, I too, sit back and I'll go through and listen to my episodes even, you know, and I remind myself that even though I gotta punch through the ceiling and make it out of prison, man, there's still more rope to climb in my life. I'm still climbing that rope, man, you know what I'm saying? To become a better me, a better version of me, you know what I'm saying? And in order to do that, you know, I have to trust in the people around me, you know, because they're the ones that's going to give you the raw and real feedback, like, hey, man, you know, tighten up here, or, hey, man, you're doing a good job here, you know, so you get to lean on those people just same way we used to lean on each other on the inside when we have those conversations and be like, hey, bro, you know, I did this thing the other day, man. Hey, how do you think I could have been sharper about that? You know? And we give it to each other, you know, and we keep it to. Hey, what's. What do you like to say? You say you like. You like to stand. Stand in it. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Toe to toe with it, man.

Damar (36:28)

Absolutely.

Anthony (36:28)

You got to be. You gotta. You gotta stand full frontal, man, and just bear it.

Damar (36:33)

Yeah. We need accountability partners in life.

Anthony (36:36)

Yeah.

Damar (36:36)

You know, having accountability partners. Yeah. People that'll tell you the truth, you know, A lot of people don't. I think that's why our bond and our relationships, even with the podcast crew, our whole team, like, I think one of the things I enjoy the most is that we tell each other what's on each other's minds. Like, when it comes to what we put out there, what we're trying to create, like, we ain't trying to create no corny stuff, man. And we also realize, yeah, we're doing this thing, but there's other lives attached to it now. I mean, we're, you know, we got. Got thousands of people out there in the world now that are eager every week to tune in because they're receiving something.

Anthony (37:16)

Right.

Damar (37:17)

How you feel about the history, man? Like, Red's history and stuff like that. Like, us being able to detail history. Part of.

Anthony (37:26)

I love the history, bro.

Damar (37:27)

Everybody.

Anthony (37:27)

Do you know what I'm saying?

Damar (37:28)

Everybody love that history.

Anthony (37:30)

Hey, listen, there isn't a better person, you know what I'm saying, than our guy Stephen, AKA Red Edwards, to be our historian. You know, I got to say, you did a phenomenal job, too, brother man. You know, on the last. It was out, too.

Damar (37:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anthony (37:47)

You know.

Damar (37:47)

You know, I've been getting a lot of. I've been getting a lot of flack for that, man. You know, I left something out, you.

Anthony (37:55)

Know, hey, we'll give it to him now. What'd you leave out? And let him get in there?

Damar (38:00)

You know, that was, you know, a little bit of. When you go into the history, man, there were some things going on, man, and them shacks, man, back then.

Anthony (38:07)

Yeah.

Damar (38:08)

You know, when it come to the whole. There was a lot of sexual exploitation going on, too, back in the day.

Anthony (38:14)

Yeah.

Damar (38:15)

But I just didn't want to throw cats under the bus in terms of making it about that, because we ain't naming nobody. But also, that was a real thing, you know what I'm saying? When we talk about what was going on in the penitentiaries. Not okay. Not okay at all. Very dangerous. Those were someone's kids. Sometimes that was someone's father doing a lot of stuff that was out of pocket, man. But. But there was a lot of rapes going on back then, man, and I. That was something that I kind of left out, you know what I mean? For various reasons, but that was definitely something I glossed over.

Anthony (38:47)

But that's what makes the history powerful, though, you know what I'm saying? Because we learn from it. It's not always pretty. History's not always pretty, you know what I'm saying? But it's an opportunity to learn and grow from it. That's why I love Red's history pieces, man, because we get to see the parallels. Right. I remember when we first started talking about doing this podcast, I said, this is us riding our Harleys on the big yard, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Being able to kind of just do our thing. And so I don't know, how do you feel about it, how you've been feeling about the history pieces, man?

Damar (39:18)

I love it. I think that it's. It gives our. Our platform, and I feel like, yeah, we're telling history, but it's also. It gives us an opportunity in our plot on our podcast to educate as well. Right. You know, they're educating them about the time when it once was this. But this is what it's evolving into now, you know, and people love history. It's interesting, you know, people are Interested in what goes on in prisons today. But back then, Walla Walla State Penitentiary as a whole, a lot of penitentiary, There's a whole bunch of untold stories and histories because it's like a city on no map, right? No. Nobody really want to know what's going on here, but really they are interested.

Anthony (40:00)

Yeah.

Damar (40:01)

So when you watch TV and we get into the mainstream media and how they push it, a lot of those shows are on TV because people are interested in what's going on in prisons, but they're just telling a different story. We're giving it full circle.

Anthony (40:14)

Yeah. And I think, like, going into the season finale, man, it's like I reflect back over all the episodes, you know what I'm saying? And I asked myself, was like, was I genuine? Right? Did I bring myself fully to the table? Right. And, you know, for the first time in a long time, bro, I can say yes to that. Because, you know, inside, bro, it's hard to bring your full self to people.

Damar (40:45)

I know, bro.

Anthony (40:46)

You know what I'm saying? And even out here, bro, you can't bring your full self to people because sometimes people ain't ready for who you truly are.

Damar (40:53)

Right.

Anthony (40:54)

And where you're heading in your life. You know, I think about how many people I meet a day, and I introduce myself. Hi, how you doing? My name is Anthony Covert. They tell me their name, you know, and I asked them some questions about their life, things like that, and they asked them about mine. And, you know, I jump rope. I double dutch between the question, like, do I tell them I was in prison? Do I tell them about my story with that, you know? Nah, I'm gonna hold off, you know what I'm saying? Because you don't want that to be the first impression. Right. So I still kind of tuck that away. But what's liberating is being able to be on this platform and be able to talk about it in a way that it's like when people hear prison now, they're gonna think of concrete mom of the podcast, and they're gonna think about the stories of the people that we've talked about. They're gonna think about the stories of us individually and the things to come, you know, when they. When they listen into season seven, they're going to reflect back to season one, two, three, four, five, and six. Right. You know, we here to stay, man, and we're here to continue to give this raw, authentic, genuine content, you know? And I got a question for you, bro. You know, how has it helped you week to week, you know, knowing that every time that you bear something about yourself, I know you said it's healing, right? How has it helped you in regards fulfilling your roles? When you talk about fulfilling your roles as a, As a father, as a. As a husband, you know, how does that help you knowing that when you're bearing your heart, you know what I'm saying, that healing process, what does that do for you?

Damar (42:34)

You know, I think about if not, if not, if not us, then who? You know, if not me or you, then who? Like, right. Why not us, bro? Somebody got to step up to the plate, man, and be. Be authentic. Right? And you talked about being on the inside, right? And that's where I want to take a moment to speak to the world and even to people that still stuck on tears, that's in county jails that are fighting their cases, right, man, Find it in you to find that road where you start to truly be yourself, because that's when you'll truly be free. Like at some point, bro, I had to get from behind the mask, the appearances, and now that it's concrete mama man stories on there, all that, man, there's people on the yard that I don't even talk to. They watch me, though. Yeah, we're all looking for somebody that's truly authentic. We're looking for somebody that can liberate us, who can represent us. And so I just fully leaned into the challenge, bro.

Anthony (43:34)

I'm.

Damar (43:34)

I'm. It's head up. I'm with it. I'm like, I don't got nothing to lose. I've lost my freedom. I got all this time, my wife is at home raising my son on her own. She's making sure our empire still exists. Starting this non profit, trying to make sure we got something for my son in the future. Trying to keep him out of gangs, get him to college, bro. I don't. I don't owe anybody anything. Wow. I just need to live my life in a manner in which if I get the opportunity like you did, however that shows up, bro, I'm ready so that I can be better for them, you know. And so whatever comes with that, I'm with that, bro.

Anthony (44:13)

Amen to that, man.

Damar (44:14)

That's man. You know what I'm saying?

Anthony (44:16)

Absolutely, bro. And that's what I knew, you know, with my journey, I was like, you know what? It's time to do something different. You know, that promise I made to my little brother was real, man.

Damar (44:25)

Right, right.

Anthony (44:25)

You know what I'm saying? I'm going to be different, you know, I had to put a lot of stuff to the side, man. I lost a lot of friends, man. You know, I would even say that I lost certain respect from certain people in some regard because, you know, they felt like I switched up, you know, But I'm so grateful for those that didn't see me as a switch up, but as an evolution. Real talk, you know, there's a lot of people that didn't take my change as a personal attack, but they seen it as an opportunity for me to grow, you know, And I would like to say that, you know what I'm saying, me sharing my story has helped other people want to learn and grow, you know, feel like they can do it.

Damar (45:03)

On the episode. We don't heal, we change. You heard that, right?

Anthony (45:06)

Yeah.

Damar (45:06)

You hear the brother at the Juneteenth, man, When you left?

Anthony (45:09)

Yeah.

Damar (45:10)

Oh, you touched people.

Anthony (45:11)

My God, Daryl, man.

Damar (45:12)

Absolutely, man. We don't change, we heal, man. That episode was powerful.

Anthony (45:17)

Yeah.

Damar (45:18)

And there was a whole bunch of things taking place at that time. Vic came inside, back inside, got to see the Juneteenth take place here. Went outside and got a chance to see you speak. And at this at all, at one time, there is. People were healing and growing from that, right? And. And dc, man, Daryl, man, he. He talked about what you represented here. You people got a chance to see something right? And that's what I really want to hone in on when. If you're locked up right now or there's somebody around you you're criticizing and you may not understand why they changing and one of your homeboys, or if you're in the women's prison and your home, your closest friend is doing something different. Bro, I got a chance to see you. You do something that I could learn from. We all got a chance to learn from how you traversed and left behind something that everybody else can walk on. And now that's all I'm trying to do for other people too, as well. Because some people look at me as a way to get things, bro, that's it. You know what's up.

Anthony (46:22)

Yeah, I know.

Damar (46:23)

I know you're in position. Catch is trying to get in the best. And I'm like, that's not. I'm not. For one, I'm. I'm not. I'm too wise. I see through that. That's Windex, man. Right? And I'm not gonna. You're not gonna burn my wood because you want to get where you want to go while you leave me behind. I don't Burn myself enough. That's it. But don't criticize who's trying to grow and change. They're just trying to heal. They're just trying to get better, man. And if that person's doing that for you, watch what they do, man, so you can get some of that. Yeah.

Anthony (46:55)

You know that. And to bring it back, you know, I'm saying to that creative process, man, we got to be creative on how we. When we move, you know what I'm saying? We gotta start being more involved, you know, if you feel like your life is in a rut, get creative. Think of, okay, I'm in this rut, man. You know, how do I get out of it? You know, maybe it's because you're not following that passion that you have, and that goes for inside and outside, you know what I'm saying? People that are locked up and people that are free, you know, and the people that are doing things is gonna get them locked up, you know, if you feel like you gotta be out here in them streets, man, and do something, you know what I'm saying, to get by, you're not being creative enough.

Damar (47:36)

Nah, for sure, you know, how do.

Anthony (47:37)

You be more creative?

Damar (47:38)

Nah, most definitely, you know, how do.

Anthony (47:40)

You free yourself on the inside? What do you do? You know what I'm saying? Do you write? Do you paint? Do you draw? Do you read and, like, dissect books or, like, what do you do to be creative? I know sitting there in the spl, man, that sustainable practice lab, I've seen so many creators, man, that table that you're leaning on, man, a creator made that, you know what I'm saying?

Damar (48:01)

Absolutely.

Anthony (48:02)

The shirts that we wear, that we was rocking. A creator made that. Those paintings you're surrounded by, a creator made that. This. Podcast creators made that, you know, so that goes to show that if you're not finding what you want in life or where you want to be, man, be more creative. Think outside the box. Think outside of prison. Think outside of your job on the streets or the. The. The. The. The bills that you gotta pay and the stress that you have. Think outside of that, right? Because when you get the chance to think outside of that, your creative brain kicks in. In. And you're like, you know what? It's. It's all in now. Absolutely. You know, I know Jackson Pollock, when he started painting, people were criticizing his paintings, right? Because they was like, oh, man, this isn't real art. He's just splashing the canvas. You know what I'm saying?

Damar (48:47)

Yeah.

Anthony (48:48)

Nah, he Was thinking outside of the box to get whatever was inside of him out. And he did that.

Damar (48:52)

Right? Let's splashes.

Anthony (48:54)

Let's splash some paint, man.

Damar (48:56)

Let's splash some creativity, you know, in your life. Splash some creativity out there.

Anthony (49:02)

Absolutely.

Damar (49:02)

In your marriage, in your friendships, and, you know, whatever you have going on, we can splash some creativity. And, you know, hearing you say that, it makes me think about, you know, how I knew we like this. Something really existed that was special, and this is something that me and my wife live by. Whenever your creativity creates a platform for others to stand on, you truly got something. It's not just about us. That's when I knew, because everyone has had a voice like our team. I have fun when I see Vic's story, Rachel, her history growing up in Walla Walla. My man Josh on the toilet with the ghost, man, you know, Chris McGill, like, there's a whole bunch of people that have been blessed and going into population, getting people's stories. It's not just about us. And that's what makes it fun done. When your creativity makes room for other people to be blessed. You know what I mean? Yeah, I take joy in that, bro, because I know after me, after I'm gone, you're gone. When there's a whole new team here, man, there's something left behind that people can benefit from, right?

Anthony (50:15)

Absolutely.

Damar (50:16)

You know, I got a question for you too, though.

Anthony (50:18)

Talk to me.

Damar (50:19)

What's your motivator? What has been the motivating factor? What keeps your fire burning? What pulls you to continue to transcend and grow and get better, man?

Anthony (50:33)

You know, I'm fortunate right now, you know what I'm saying, to have a support system that's around me that believes in me. I got amazing friends from all over the world, man, all over this country. I got an amazing girl that supports me. My family supports me. I got an entire college that supports me. Whitman College supports me. That's all a lot of people, man, that believe in me. And when you get yourself, when you stand and you look behind you, you know, it's that whole saying, man, when you think you're in the battle by yourself, it's because you're only looking forward, right? And you see all the. All the. All the obstacles that are in front of you. You. And you're like, man. And then you look behind you, man, and you got a sea of people that, like, you know, we here to help you get through them obstacles. You know, when I look back and I see all those people there supporting me, man, that's my motivator, you know? And it's not just people out here. It's my brothers that are on the inside. It's you. You know what I'm saying? It's red. It's the people that I know at the end of the day, watched my transition and said, you know what you're still doing, doing it. And my number one catalyst for all this is my brother Jonathan. You know, Jonathan Leonard Vanhausen Covert, man, I love to say his full name, bro. Lost him in 2012, but he's here with me in 2025, you know, pushing forward, you know what I'm saying? I get to carry him on my back everywhere I go. It was his dream to go to school, man, and so I'm gonna fulfill it for him. You know, it's his dream to be able to take care of my parents. So I'm gonna do it for him. And then I can't. I can't forget about my God, man. God has brought me through some of my deepest, deepest parts of my life. And so when I turn to him, man, in my faith and I pray. I remember the other day, bro, I asked you to pray for me, you know what I'm saying? Cause I was going through some stuff, and that pushed me to keep going. You know, the power of prayer, man, it transcends all things, and that's what's helping me transcend. I look behind me and I see my people. I feel my back and there's my brother, and I look up and God's paving a way for me, you know, Most def. What about you, man?

Damar (52:46)

The same. It's the same, man. God, you know, my faith keeping me going. Cuz I. You know, to be honest with you, man, I could, you know, I get tired. I be tired, bro.

Anthony (52:58)

Yeah, yeah.

Damar (52:59)

And I really. I have no rights to be because I think about all the people that waited 20, 30 years to make it through. So it humbles me. But I think I get so exhausted sometimes because I want to see a different scene so bad. You know, when you wake up inside of these walls, man, you wake up behind these. These barbed wire fences and these circumstances every day, right? It's the same scene seen. It's just on loop, right? And so, you know, sometimes wanting to see. See it different so bad, wanting to see my wife smile, my son, you know, jumping run into my arms, see his dad on the other side of this, things like that, you know, it. I think that exhausts me, just having that in my heart and wanting it to Take place for me, right? But what motivates me is really just making sure I make those guys proud, man. You know, that's my biggest focus is being a great husband and a good father to my son. Them too. That's my legacy, right? My son is my legacy. You know, how he sees me, what he gains from me, what he decides to do in his own life because of what I did and didn't do, you know, that's big for me, you know? You know, I also think about what motivates me to. To keep hope alive for the future and to reunite with you in real life, bro. That's big. Like, I can't wait until I make it up out of here. There's an opportunity for me and you to do this work in the world together, touch lives, Go sit down with our families, man, for me to meet your mom, you know, meet your family, come to you, pull up on you, man. You know, go to church with with you.

Anthony (54:45)

Yeah, man.

Damar (54:45)

Be in your life in a different capacity. I can't wait to experience that, you know what I mean? Hey, hey. You said something a while ago. I don't mean to interrupt you, bro. You said that your. Your. Your girl woke you up out of your sleep, bro. You want to talk about that?

Anthony (55:01)

Yeah, bro. Woke me up because I was screaming like, we did it, you know, I'm gonna keep a pg, you know what I'm saying? I want to have to say all the words, you know? You know what I mean? But nah, man, forget that, man. I was like, ah, we made it, my. We made it. You know what I'm saying? Like, we out here. I was excited, bro.

Damar (55:18)

Wow.

Anthony (55:19)

And I think that was God's way of telling me that it's going to happen. So that's how I know you coming home, fam. And when we get to reunite, and when that time comes, bro, this world better watch out because you let one giant out, you know what I'm saying? Now to have two in the world, we're going to be putting palm prints on the tall buildings you can see. Hey, you know what I'm saying? Because we coming and moving and shaking.

Damar (55:42)

Shoot. You know, they call this the big yard. I swear they're lying. The big yards out there. This is the small yard, you know.

Anthony (55:50)

To the listeners, man, out in the world, in your cell, on the yard, you know, wherever you at. This episode is about creativity. Start being more creative in your life gifts, man. Step outside your comfort zone, because that's what creators do. They step outside their comfort zones. Look what's happening right now as you listen. What's happening inside of you. Check in with yourself right now as you're listening to this. What are you thinking about? Who are you thinking about? Do the ultimate check in with yourself and then get creative, man.

Damar (56:22)

Use your imagination to be better. Because art, Art changes lives. Your art, your expression, the way that you price, press an imprint on the world, how you show up, what you leave behind is so, so monumental. And all the people that are stuck inside of these sales on, in prisons, in county jails, if you're in the hole, if you're an imu, if you're in solitary confinement, if you're in federal custody, which they call it the shoe, please continue to be creative. You can still be a great parent. There's some forgiveness that needs to take place. Be forgiving. Mend your family. Take responsibility for you. There's creative ways to do that. If there's programs on the yard, if there's a GED program in the hole, take that GED program so you can become a better person. If drawing helps your mental health draw you, do what you need to do to experience liberation in whatever capacity, you can create that. Because creativity is king. It's what makes the world what it is today.

Anthony (57:27)

Amen, man.

Damar (57:28)

And I definitely appreciate you, man. I'm glad to be here with you today and just kind of wrap up our journey for the first season, man. And can't say how it ended.

Anthony (57:37)

Yeah. Because it ain't over.

Damar (57:38)

Yeah, it ain't over, man. And the journey's gonna continue in season two, man.

Anthony (57:43)

Stay tuned in, you know.

Damar (57:45)

Absolutely.

Anthony (57:46)

It's about to be epic, bro. I appreciate you, man. I love you, bro. You know, and we trailblazers, man.

Damar (57:54)

Yeah, man.

Anthony (57:55)

You know, we can say that, and we can say that confidently, man. We trailblazers, bro. Let's get it.

Damar (58:00)

Most definitely, man. Concrete mom of the podcast, man, here with my brother, Anthony Covert, man. Y' all stay tuned in. Season two is on the way.

Anthony (58:08)

On the way.

Damar (58:09)

Yes, sir.

Vic Chopra (58:13)

Thank you so much to Anthony and Demar for continuing to show the strength and vulnerability and sharing so much of yourselves with the world world this season. Every time I hear the two of you together, it reminds me of what we shared in our first episode this season, about the deep and meaningful relationships we form while doing time and how we can show the world that even though we are incarcerated, this doesn't take away from the fact that we are human and we find ways to love and support each other even in the darkest of times. And places. And in case anyone out there listening may be feeling isolated, I share this to instill a sense of hope and reassurance that things will get better and that. And that no matter where you are, you are not alone.

Damar (58:53)

Yeah, brother. Thank you for having me. Nah, it's real. It's real. It's real life. It's. You know, I mean, my past, you know, our past. One thing that we shouldn't just let define us. We all come from. From somewhere. You know, we all been through some things, and those things led us to doing certain things. Things that weren't right, know, that weren't what we weren't supposed to do. But I'm a true believer in change and positive growth. I just love to tell my story, man, you know, And I love speaking through my music, hoping to inspire and help people to get where I am today. To know that change is possible is real, man. And we can be a positive force in the community one day. Look, remember I was a player in this game of life the Tina crapped out on a double I should have played it right Trying to pit the harm that was caused I'm just trying to make it right Young and I was told how to roll Nowadays I make the dice Made it to the system as a baby I was just a little boy CPS didn't seem to care like what you working for Year was the homies that gave me all the love I was searching for but that little thing that I thought was love Just seemed to hurt me more the streets try to swallow me Since I'm trying to bury me Going on dates with the devil the gang marry me from all the stuff Thinks that I had to suffer I should need therapy but it's therapeutic every day for me Becoming the better me Morpher to the man that I am I love the newer me Tell the homies this who I am they gotta get used to me it's the only me you gonna get there ain't no two of me I'm going from shackle chains DVs's in my jewelry I know what's on me to be a role model to the younger kids beating gave them 16 in my life After I'm done this beer Everybody possesses some power don't try to run from it Just forget and learn I have power look what I done with it Aspire while the youth in my city to live a better way Constantly showing my peers it will be better days Compassion, hyp, forgiveness that is the key and I'm still going to continue putting this work after I'm free on me. Yeah, that's it, brother. And you gotta let it ride out right here though.

Rachel Check (61:22)

Next we bring your favorite historian, Red back for his final history report of the season. He's given you the lowdown on the infamous Concrete Mama days and the many clubs that formed during this era. And now he closes it out with an incredible piece on the Lifers Club. Take it away, Red.

Kenny (61:41)

So we've been talking about the self governance experiment and you know there were only three groups that made the cut at the end. This week I'm going to go more into depth about the one that I haven't told you about, and that's the Lifers With Hope. Or more commonly referred to as the Lifers Club. You already know they were one of the strongest throughout the 70s because Warden BJ Ray embraced them as a model club and in return gave them a lot of perks. Others didn't have. This as well as ironclad leadership made them skyrocket to the top of the penitentiary's hierarchy. But you know what they say, good times never last and what goes up must come down. So get ready for the rise and fall of the Lifers Club. It's been said that Kenny Atuga's reputation as a prison hero was established shortly after he was sent to Walla Walla as a teenager. On the 4th of July in 1973, Kenny and another prisoner escaped from the segregation unit he was housed in for punching a guard. During their exercise hour, they tricked a rookie guard into taking them near an open door. They took off sprinting out the door as shots were being fired in their direction. They made it all the way to the resident council office and locked the door with their own lock. They then tore down an electric typewriter and wired it to the door so that anyone who tried to open the door would get shocked. But they were still stuck. So eventually they decided to go back outside. Half the prison population gathered around them and helped them get to the water tower that was inside the walls of the prison prison. The legs were all greased to prevent people from climbing, but they got past that obstacle by using garden hoses as ropes to sling over the lowest rung of the ladder. Almost 30 guys tried to make the climb, but only Kenny and two others could make it to the top. Warden BJ Ray figured he'd wait them out. He even joked about it and told people who were concerned that they climbed up there to see the fireworks display. While they were up there, other incarcerated folks would send up things like Food, chairs, blankets, magazines, a radio, candles and weed by rope slings. Kenny said they'd spend their time up there smoking, listening to tapes and even cooking steaks over an Almond Roca can with a little gasoline in it. He also said they made pruno and lowered it down to the other guys in the population so they could get drunk too. Then they'd go swimming in the tank. These dudes were up there kicking it for six weeks, having the time of their life. While administration was trying to figure out what to do. I couldn't make this shit up if I wanted to. Finally, tired of pretending it was all a joke, administration caved and decided to meet all their demands by granting them amnesty and releasing Kenny and his friends from segregation for good. Administration in turn dismantled the water tower and moved it outside the gates so it couldn't happen again. But it didn't matter because Kenny was now a legend and a king. This and the fact that Kenny ruled with an iron fist helped cement him as the main leader of the club. Because a lot of people that were involved with the club had a life sentence. They were more prone to initiate stabbings and even the threat of gun violence. Yeah, that's right, I said gun violence. Not only have I seen newspaper articles and old archive photos of guns that were found in the penitentiary, but one search of the lifers club turned up a.38 caliber and a.45 caliber pistol they had stashed in the walls. So it'd be easy to say these guys were feared and respected by everyone at the penitentiary. Other things contributed to them being a powerful group as well. They sold candy and ice cream, so they had a legitimate business and cash coming in for the group. This gave them a good cover for all the behind the scenes money they had coming in from weed and other drug sales too. But also a more positive note, they started up a lot of great self help groups for men inside the prison. One of the more notable programs was Take a Lifer to Dinner. This program offered men the opportunity to go home with a staff member for dinner or lunch and actually see the outside world through the eyes of an officer. I believe this helped humanize the incarcerated and was a reward for staying out of trouble. As well as building a better relationship between officers and prisoners. There were a couple things that happened happened to stop this though. One situation was when Arthur St. Peter, a legendary convict who Kenny thought of as a father figure, escaped out of the bathroom window of a staff member's house while on an outing. He actually made it all the way to A Tacoma pawn shop on the opposite side of the state where he was shot trying to rob it. St. Peter actually shot and killed the owner and was almost fatally wounded himself by the owner's wife. Before he could escape he was shot 10 times and almost bled out in the getaway car. Then was arrested and booked into the Pierce County Jail. A year later, Lorraine Taylor, the wife of the man St. Peter killed, won a lawsuit against the state of Washington for negligence and what took place that day. She was awarded $186,000 and the warden, BJ Ray, was held responsible. Things progressively got tighter for the lifers over the years. And on the evening of December 5, 1978, Kenny St. Peter and Kenny's right hand man, Al Gilchrist dropped down a hole that men had dug in Lifers Park. See, Lifers park was a place reserved for lifers only and an occasional guard walking through searching for sketchy going down. They then hurried across the dirt basement of 8 Wing and crawled 30ft through a tunnel that a dozen men had bore underneath the penitentiary's west wall. But someone had already ratted them off and the guards were waiting for them. Kenny and Al tried to keep running and were hit with shotgun fire. They were carried back to the prison hospital and then the hole. They didn't last much longer in this institution. People said they made a hit list to get the guys they thought told on them and within a month were on the midnight express. This was an overnight flight that would separate them and put as much as 3,000 miles between them and the penitentiary. In a faraway prison, each club had different reasons why things didn't work out. But the crazy that went down in 79 was what finally shut down the whole self governance experiment altogether. The beginning of the end was the murder of Sergeant Cross on June 15, 1979. See, there was a staff briefing that morning that said to back off and leave the inmates alone in order to stay out of harm's way. There was a beef between the Chicago Chicanos and the Native Americans and one person had already been killed. It said Cross wasn't there for the briefing and went on about his normal day, which would be his last. Cross asked one of the natives to stand for search who then spit and cross his face and pulled a giant knife. No one really knows what happened after that, but when they found him later he'd been stabbed multiple times. He never had a chance. This is when really hit the fan. It took steps staff, the state patrol and the SWAT team just to get everyone to lock down people Were going crazy. It was staff vers prisoners and dudes were getting roughed up. They were eventually all locked down and their extra property perks and their clubhouses were taken and destroyed. Men were in their cells for months while staff swept the wings. Lifers park was even bulldozed and prepped for paving. During the first week of July 1979, it had been 21 days since any of the incarcerated had taken a shower, exercised, or eaten a meal other than a TV dinner. Some officers had worked overtime every day for a week as well, so tempers were rising on both sides. Then to add insult to injury, a rat named George turned off the air conditioning while working the Mechanical room in 8 Wing. Then another guy decided to plug his sink and toilet to make the cell flood, and another like the way the water looked flowing off the third floor and joined in. So the guards decided to shut the water off without asking anyone. After dinner, the guys started chanting for showers to no avail. Then they started chanting to tear their shitters off the wall. See, the toilets and sink were porcelain back then, and it probably wasn't hard to do. Dick Morgan, who was an officer in 8 Wing at the time and you've heard from throughout the season, Decided they should cut the power in the cells just in case someone could get shot. Docked soon, they cleared everyone from the wing with no power, water or plumbing. And Morgan does say that things got a little rough on the way out. There were other people who had accounts of that night, too. Robin Moses, a captain, said bad things happened that night and that's a good thing. They didn't call him to testify. He said officers were forcing men to run a gauntlet and beating them with nightsticks on the way out. And once they got them outside, they were pouring drinks on the men from the top of the wall. And other guys, guards, were walking over their backs while they're on the ground in the dirt. Barbara Miller, a paralegal for prison legal services, Showed up the following day with an attorney. After talking with the guys, she says not only did all those bad things happen, but they also beat the out of two homosexual men in the wing, destroyed their dentures and sodomized one with a night stick. She goes on to say that she never cried at the penitentiary before, but that day she couldn't stop crying. Dick Morgan tried to find out if it was true, and after interviewing people, came away with a bad feeling about it. After 45 days on the big yard, living in makeshift tents, using gross porta potties, showering outdoors, eating TV dinners and baking under the hot summer sun. The men returned to 8 Wing with everyone remaining on lockdown. The rest of the incarcerated at the facility were stuck in their cells for four months. This finally ended about 10 days after attorneys for the incarcerated filed hot tub to it versus Ray and Federal District Court. In June the following year, Judge Tanner issued a 60 page opinion in which he said confinement at the Washington State Penitentiary constituted cruel and unusual punishment. The prison lost the lawsuit and things changed around here. That's the highs and lows of the Lifers Club and the infamous self governance experiment. It does suck that the lifers in here don't have some of the perks and programs they used to. Just having their own space and a park to go to get away from all the would be nice. Furloughs are probably the biggest thing they lost though. One thing I can say that's better about doing time now is the lack of ultra violence compared to back then. Sure, people still get into fights and there's an occasional riot here and there, but at least you don't have to worry about getting your head cut off with the shank the side size of a katana sword. Prison clearly isn't a great place to be, but you've heard over the season that there's many great things that have happened here over the years, like the Herbert Nichols story. And there's still amazing things happening here right now, like this podcast. In the seasons to come, dumb, you'll see how we've made the best of our situation and how with the help of DOC and people in power giving us new opportunities and not just sticking with the way things have been for so many years, we can succeed. Because let's be real, the system isn't working the way it is. So hopefully through programs like this and the Washington Way, which is hoping to mirror our system with Scandinavian countries, we can get this prison stuff figured out.

Vic Chopra (72:50)

Foreign.

Vic Chopra (72:56)

No matter how many times I hear these stories about the Washington State Penitentiary, it never fails to blow my mind. Thank you Red for continuing to bring us these wild and fascinating tales, and we can't wait to see what you cook up for us next season.

Rachel Check (73:10)

And speaking of which, that's it. We've reached the end of season one of Concrete Mama, the podcast.

Anthony (73:18)

We made it.

Vic Chopra (73:18)

What a wild ride this first season has been. I can't believe it's already over.

Rachel Check (73:23)

But don't worry, we'll be back with season two very soon, and in the.

Vic Chopra (73:27)

Meantime, we'll be releasing some exclusive subscriber content over the summer so make sure you follow us so you don't miss out. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook @UnincarceratedProductions and you can also find us on Substack and Reddit.

Rachel Check (73:45)

We want to thank all of our amazing listeners out there for being on this incredible journey with us. On behalf of the whole Concrete Mama team. From the bottom of our hearts, thank you so much.

Vic Chopra (73:57)

And I just want to thank Red, Damar and Anthony for being such amazing hosts and storytellers this season. You've truly shown the world that it doesn't matter where you come from, you are capable of anything.

Rachel Check (74:08)

And a huge shout out to the staff at Washington State Penitentiary and Washington State Department of Corrections for all of their support this season.

Vic Chopra (74:18)

All right, Concrete Mama listeners, we've reached the end of this yellow brick road for this season. Thank you again for joining us on this adventure and there will be plenty more to come. I'm Vic Chopra.

Rachel Check (74:29)

And I'm Rachel Check.

Vic Chopra (74:31)

See you next season.

Rachel Check (74:36)

That's it for this episode of Concrete Monster. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bentz is our editor, audio engineer and graphic designer. Megan Sanchez handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and me, Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla and Washington State Doc have made this project possible. For more info, check out our show notes and you can write us with questions about the podcast at the email and address listed there there. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. You can also subscribe to support us and get extra content. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.