"Where's Santos?"

Summary

Concrete Mama: The Podcast

Episode Title: "Where's Santos?"
Release Date: August 5, 2026
Host: Unincarcerated Productions
Featured voices: Santos Brown/Anthony Covert, D. Nelson, Auntie Dorothy Briggs, Linda, Gina, Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha), Rachel Cech, Sister Helen Prejean

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Episode Overview

This deeply moving episode centers on the search for identity, belonging, and lost family in the wake of incarceration and foster care separation. Through intensely personal conversations, Anthony Covert (aka Santos Brown) reconnects with his birth family after decades and embarks on the search for his missing brother, Nicholas. The episode is framed by reflections on broken family ties, the legacy of the foster system and incarceration, healing through reconnection, and the universal quest for home. In the latter half, the podcast branches into a discussion of capital punishment in Washington State, exploring its history and ethical implications, featuring perspectives from host Rachel Cech and Sister Helen Prejean.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Search for Identity and Family

Timestamps: 00:11–03:28, 04:17–13:38

• Anthony/Santos’s Journey: Anthony, formerly incarcerated and navigating reentry, shares the complexities of growing up adopted by a white family, the pain of displacement, and his lifelong search for his biological family.
• The Importance of Identity: D. Nelson, Anthony’s former cellmate and friend, underscores how lacking a sense of identity and familial roots creates lifelong wounds.
• Family as Healing: The reunion with Auntie Dorothy and other family members is both joyous and bittersweet, surfacing long-held pain and unanswered questions.

Notable Quote:

“When you don’t know yourself, you can’t be yourself.” — D. Nelson (02:02)

Notable Moment:

• Anthony introduces Auntie Dorothy, who helped raise him as a baby and supported him during incarceration, emphasizing the critical role of kinship in survival and healing. (04:17–05:00)

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2. Family Testimonies: Grief, Love, and Reunion

Timestamps: 13:38–29:15

• The Experience of Loss: Linda, Gina, and Tasha describe the pain of Anthony being removed from their lives, memories of sudden separations, and seeing him shackled at their mother’s funeral.
• The Persistence of Family Ties: Despite name changes, time, and trauma, the emotional recognition of “Santos” persists. The family shares moments of bittersweet reunion, pride in Santos’ transformation, and the ache of missed years.
• Siblings’ Emotional Depth: The longing for lost time is met with gratitude for the present and hope for the future.

Notable Quotes:

“Even though you were taken away all those years ago, we never forgot about you... I see you as my brother, not as my cousin.” — Linda (14:20–17:05)
“When they first took my brother from me, it was hard ... but when he got taken away from me again, it was heartbroken. Really heartbroken.” — Big Sister (23:40–25:11)

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3. Searching for Nicholas: The Missing Brother

Timestamps: 27:25–47:01

• A Family Shattered: Anthony shares the loss of his brother Jonathan to cancer—and the haunting question of what became of Nicholas, separated in foster care.
• Personal Appeal: The episode becomes an open call to the public for help in reconnecting with Nicholas, whose whereabouts are unknown after being placed in the foster system as a toddler.
• Metaphors of Loss: Santos compares his family to a vase with a missing piece—still beautiful, but never whole.
• A System’s Failures: Heartbreaking stories surface about abuse and loss within the foster care system, and the trauma endured by Anthony and his siblings.

Notable Quotes:

“Inside that bottle [thrown into the ocean] is all the love and everything that you have that you give out. And you hope one day that whoever finds that bottle just shows them the same love and care that you have.” — Santos (29:15)
“If you are listening to this, your big sister loves you and hopefully we can see you again. We still looking for you. We know what you look like. I mean, we know a Brown when we see a Brown.” — Big Sister (46:34)

Call to Action:

• The episode ends its first half with a public plea:

"If you know anything about the whereabouts of Nicholas Brown, please contact Unincarcerated Productions on all social media platforms. One message, one lead could help bring this family back together." (49:55–50:34)

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4. Reflections on the Foster Care and Prison System

Timestamps: 10:22–13:38, 29:15–34:22, 40:40–42:25

• Cycles of Disconnection: The hosts and family detail how the foster and prison systems break familial bonds, replace identities, and perpetuate cycles of trauma and longing.
• Personal Trauma: Anthony recounts physical abuse in foster homes and the deep psychological scars it left, offering an unfiltered account of why many system-involved youth end up in prison.

Notable Quote:

“There’s so many people inside of the system that either was adopted, abused, abandoned ... How can you expect someone who feels lost to find themselves?” — D. Nelson (10:22)

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5. The Legacy of the Death Penalty in Washington State

Timestamps: 50:40–62:12

• History Explained: The podcast narrates Washington’s death penalty history—its executions, abolition, and the social divide it created.
• Personal Perspective: Rachel Cech describes witnessing the tailgate-party atmosphere at the 1993 execution of Wesley Allen Dodd, and how it shaped her anti-death penalty stance.
• The Ethics of Justice: Both Rachel and Sister Helen Prejean critique the concept of capital punishment, its roots in politics, systemic bias, and the impossibility of deciding who is “the worst of the worst."
• Stories of Injustice: Sister Prejean, a renowned abolitionist, recounts witnessing six executions and the injustices underlying many capital cases.

Notable Quotes:

"Why do we kill people who kill people, in order to show that killing people is wrong?" — Rachel Cech (53:53)
"I believe that human beings really can change and be reformed. So thank God we’re beginning to wake up to that." — Sister Helen Prejean (56:23)

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6. The Ongoing Journey: Hope, Forgiveness, and Call for Healing

Timestamps: 47:01–49:55

• Message to the Missing: Each family member offers a message of love and hope to Nicholas, envisioning reunion and healing.
• Anthony’s Reflection: He affirms that his own journey is evidence that, despite everything, a “fulfilled life” is possible through perseverance and love.

Notable Quote:

“My love for my little brother Jonathan helped me get my life right. The love of my family helped me get my life right. ... Love is powerful, man. And love will bring family back together.” — Santos (47:01–49:55)

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Notable Quotes & Emotional Moments (with Timestamps)

• “One of the most powerful things in life is identity. One of the most powerful things in life is family. One of the most powerful things in life is love.”
  — D. Nelson (02:02)
• “You know, I was always trying to figure out where, where's my family? Where do I look alike at? … All this handsomeness had to have come from somewhere.”
  — Santos (07:14–07:35)
• “We know what you look like. I mean, we know a Brown when we see a Brown.”
  — Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha) (01:32, 46:34)
• “I learned that sometimes the people that smile in your face and act like they love you are the same ones ready to stab you in your back. But I also learned that strength comes from the trials and tribulations of our lives.”
  — Santos (08:50)
• “We all swimming upstream, man. So here I am riding the stream back down to where it all began.”
  — Santos (09:39)
• “This ain't a replacement. This is an increase again in the midst of losing.”
  — Santos (42:25)
• “I pray that for anybody else out there that is seeking and searching, that has a missing family member, that you never stop searching for them.”
  — Santos (49:55)

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Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Highlight | |----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:11–03:28 | Anthony’s/Host’s introduction and D. Nelson’s reflections | | 04:17–08:50 | Reunion with Auntie Dorothy | | 10:22–13:38 | Trauma and loss in foster care and prison | | 13:38–27:25 | Interviews with siblings/cousins (Linda, Gina, Tasha) | | 27:25–29:15 | Jonathan’s influence, Nicholas’s disappearance | | 29:15–34:22 | Searching for Nicholas and the pain of broken family | | 40:40–42:25 | Systemic foster care and prison trauma recounted | | 47:01–49:55 | Messages to Nicholas & plea to the public | | 50:40–53:48 | Death penalty history in Washington | | 53:48–62:12 | Rachel Cech and Sister Helen Prejean on the ethics of death penalty | | 62:12–63:31 | Reflections on justice and the future |

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Episode Tone & Style

Raw, intimate, and unflinching. The episode is a blend of pain, hope, love, and a yearning for justice (personally and systemically). The language is direct and emotional, filled with slang, pauses, and authenticity, channeling both street wisdom and hard-won insight. The mood oscillates between heartbreaking vulnerability and inspiring resilience.

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Listener Takeaways

• The foster care and prison systems can fracture families and identities, leaving trauma that persists for decades.
• Healing is possible through persistence, honest conversation, and reconnection with family and community—even if it takes a lifetime.
• Systems of “justice” are deeply flawed—from tearing apart families to the questionable ethics of capital punishment.
• Every listener is invited to play a part in righting old wrongs, whether by helping reunite one family or by questioning broader systems.

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How You Can Help

If you have information about Nicholas Brown (born Yakima, WA, early 1990s), contact Unincarcerated Productions via Instagram, Facebook, or other social media platforms.

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Concrete Mama is not just a podcast—it’s a movement, channeling hope, healing, and honest stories from inside and beyond the prison walls.

Transcript

[Craig Jackson]

This program contains mature language that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

My name is Anthony Covert, and this is my story, shaped by my lived experience, personal growth and beliefs. Nothing I share should be understood as representing, endorsed by or approved by the Department of Corrections. These are my words and thank you for listening.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

It was heartbroken, Covid.

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

Life is getting short now. Everybody passing away. So you have to count your blessings every day. And they don't know how much you love about me every day.

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

I love you.

[Gina (cousin/sister)]

I love you.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

Your big sister loves you.

[Gina (cousin/sister)]

We miss you. Hopefully you find this.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

We still looking for you. We know what you look like. I mean, we know a Brown. When you see a Brown.

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

Hey, it's me again. One of your hosts of Concrete mom of the podcast D. Nelson. You know, if you go back to season one, episode one, show them who you are, then you probably know this. I was Anthony's cellmate while we were incarcerated before he got his clemency. But I'm also his close friend

[Craig Jackson]

now.

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

I want to walk you through this moment of reconnection with his biological family. Being displaced, disconnected, detached. This was the plight of my brother Anthony's life. But this is the story of how one man got out of prison. And in search of that truth and healing, found pieces of itself that was missing. But it came with some joy and pain. You know, when you got a. A pain that lives in you to where you're trying to figure out your identity, I think what that does for you is you begin to walk with wounds that people don't understand. One of the most powerful things in life is identity. One of the most powerful things in life is family. One of the most powerful things in life is love. And when you don't know yourself, you can't be yourself. Anthony's a colorful guy. He's talented. He's very supportive. He's very open, very understanding. But there were always these pains that we discussed that he felt afraid of. Who am I

[Craig Jackson]

like, bro?

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

Like, who am I like? You know what I mean? Like, I've been in prison for so long as a young man, and not to mention fam. My family who adopted me as white, you know, and they really don't understand me. At times, I struggle to explain myself to them. But there's this family out there, you know, I got a family out there, and a piece of me, I think, you know, a piece of him struggled with. Why me? Why was I left behind? They gave me away.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

I got a special guest with me right now. This woman damn near Raised me, took care of me when I was a wee little baby. I love this woman with all my heart and she stuck by me my whole time. When I was incarcerated, she made sure that I was taken care of, made sure I had what I needed. And so I am proud to introduce the world to my Auntie Dorothy. And so, Auntie Dorothy, tell the people a little about who you are.

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

My name is Dorothy Briggs and. Oh shit.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Oh, oh. We ain't got to worry about being censored on here, Auntie. It's adult. It's adult content. Uh huh.

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

Let me hold this thing. Yeah, I feel what I supposed to be saying.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Just tell people about. Who are you, Auntie? Where you from?

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

From Jonesboro, Louisiana, but I live in Yakima, Washington now. We came up here because they were doing harvest time irrigation hops and apples, pears, peaches, cherries. So we started from Sunny side to Prosser, Grandview, Okanagan, Olmec and Gleed until we got to Yakima. That's where we landed at right there. And we've been here ever since. And I moved over here in the house in 74. He was a good baby. He was a good baby today. Took him away from. I don't know what happened after that, but he didn't have to worry about nothing. He fed, clothed and everything. Is everybody loving all my sisters and brother, but he was a good kid because we had him ever since he was the a baby just about, you know, I don't know what happened, but I'm glad he made it back. When we find out what we can get in touch with him. Then I start calling him and start whatever. Everything's gonna go good now. Yeah. And he comes up and visit me and stuff. And I call them and keep in touch some. Might not be every day, but every other day or two, whatever. I really don't know what happened. I've been trying to find out myself, but I ain't getting no answer, right. But I know some of the things. I know some part of it, but I ain't gonna discuss that too much. Cause they know who they are. When they took him away from us, somebody told lies and put shit out that wasn't true. So I'm not gonna call their name. They'll figure it out. When they left and went out of town, they said, we can get him back. Then when my mom and dad got back, we couldn't get him. And somebody told him something that happened that had no business saying it wasn't even no concern of his. And he wasn't even thought about at all at that time when they spread it out. Life is getting short now. Everybody passing away and don't know when you're going. So you have to count your blessings each and every day and let them know how much you love them every day.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Well, you know, I love you to the max, Auntie. I know it's not easy, you know what I'm saying? And for me, it was super confusing not understanding going from one place to the next, not knowing what's happening to the people that. That I've known, and then being reintroduced to new people, you know? But at the end of the day, you know, I'm back. Like you said, the good Lord brought me back, you know? Know what I'm saying? I get to come harass you now. But I think of, like, the. The times when I was young, you know, and I watch people with their families and everybody looked alike. And then I was always trying to figure out, well, where. Where's my family? Where do I look alike at? I was like, all these. All this handsomeness had of. Came from somewhere, from some gene, you know what I'm saying?

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

Yeah, God sure is good. He got him back now, so we're gonna try to keep him in good hand and keep him out of trouble. I just appreciate that the Lord sent him back to us and everything else. So y' all know who y' all are that had. That had him taken away from us. So y' all will reach what you sold.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

They say, what's today?

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

Christmas Day.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

It's Christmas Day, the Lord's day. You know, I'm just grateful that I get to be here and spend it with you. And I ain't behind them fences and bars, walls, none of that shenanigans, you know? And for all my brothers that are still locked up, man, you. When you get your day to be out there with your family, man, just embrace them, be present, love on them. You know, like Monty said, man, time's only getting shorter.

[Auntie Dorothy Briggs]

Yes, it is.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

And so all we gotta do is just keep hanging on to what we got and keep pushing forward. Well, I love you, Auntie. Thank you, too, baby. You know, I learned a lot talking with my Auntie Dorothy. I learned that sometimes the people that smile in your face and act like they love you are the same ones ready to stab you in your back. But I also learned that strength comes from the trials and tribulations of our lives. You know, without those struggles, how do we gain muscle? You know, we struggle when we lift weights. We're inside the pen. Everybody want to get big. I had a buddy of mine, he's always saying, everybody want to get swole, but nobody want to put the work in. Used to crack me up on the waypow, but that's the truth, man. Everybody wants to just come into life strong. What have you been through that made you that way? I know a lot of strong people, man, because they overcame a lot of things. You know, it's the whole story about the salmon that swims upstream. It gets strong because it has to fight against the current, but eventually it makes it upstream. Right? You know, we all swimming upstream, man. So here I am riding the stream back down to see where it all began.

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

You know, there's so many people inside of the system that either was adopted, abused, abandoned. And I mean, you know, not to get down to the crime and the stats and the statistics on why people are here and what happens, but that's just the truth, you know, how can you expect someone who feels lost to find themselves? How can you expect someone who has never experienced the love and warmth of a family to love themselves correctly? How can we expect someone to have confidence in a world so big when from the time they was a child, they weren't confided in, they weren't embraced? It'll make you question yourself. Like, that's a real thing, man. Like, people, we question ourselves a lot. That's one of the things that I know about human beings. We don't admit it, but we'll question ourselves, like, am I crazy? Am I good enough? Am I worthy to be loved? Why do I act this way? Why do I feel this way? Like that thing, That's a real struggle. That's a real inner struggle. And I'm. I'm gonna be honest, man. I think I was just able to see that with Anthony, because, you know, when people open up to you and tell you the truth about who they are, you can't do nothing but respect it. And in turn, if you're a kind heart, you know, if there's an inkling of vulnerability and authenticity inside you, you're going to protect that. And I think I was like, okay, like, I understand my brother, man. Like, I really understand. Kind of reminds me of a really precious gift, whatever it is. And I'm not saying that he's fragile, but imagine something comes in the mail, and when you get that box in the mail, it says, handle carefully. Anthony's a very strong man. I respect him with all my heart. But what I learned is this. He Taught me how to handle him. I. I knew how. I. I learned him. And I think in. In life, that's what we do with each other. The more we give of ourselves, the more we learn to handle people. And so his journey and what he was dealing with, that's really what it was. He was really just trying to find himself so he can learn how to navigate in this world in a place where no. Knowing yourself is at the top of the list. Sometimes when you can trace your roots or you can find out who you are, what you're connected to, a lot of the times, man, you'll find your dreams. You'll know your gifts. You'll be able to understand them.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Hey, y', all, it's your boy Santos again with Concrete Mama Podcast, continuing on the journey of where Santos. You know, it's been a heavy day. I got the opportunity to sit here with two of my cousins and my sister Linda, Gina, and Tasha. And, you know, one thing I've always wondered, you know, growing up, you know what I'm saying was, like, where's my family? Why would my family not want me? You know, I struggled with that for a long time, trying to figure out, you know, how come I couldn't stay. And I can only imagine what it was like for y'. All. Like, why did they have to take me? You know, what was that like? Not being able to get questions answered when y' all was younger, trying to figure out what the hell happened with Santos.

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

It was kind of rough because I'm the oldest, and so growing up, you were like my little brother. But I remember a time, I don't remember how old I was, but I remember Gina and I, we saw you on a church bus, and we were sitting each other. I was like, that's Santos. Like, I know that's him because I'm familiar with what you look like and everything. I was like, and I feel like when you're family, you know, family. And so I was like, that's him. But then at that time, you were going by Anthony, so we're like, that's not Santos. Cause that's a whole nother name. But then we figured out that you were Santos, and then we did Sunday school together, and then that was the last time we saw you after the bus. And I'm like, what happened to him? Like, oh, my gosh, I'm getting emotional. Like, you were taken away from us again because we didn't see you anymore at church. We didn't go to Sunday school anymore. And then we didn't See you until the memorial for your mom. And when we saw you, you were shackled up, and it was so hard to see you like that because I saw you as my brother, because I said, I'm the oldest. And seeing you like that, and I just wanted to be like. I just want to hug him and love on him and to let him know that we're family and we're here for you and we love you. Even though you were taken away all those years ago, we never forgot about you. And then when Gina, Tasha, and I went to go to the opening for your podcast to see you, my big sister, even though you're my cousin, my big sister heart was so proud to see you in a whole nother light, to see you going for your education, to see you not shackled and to be able to hug you and to spend time with you and to show you that we loved you and to show you that we're proud of you. Like, it was so amazing. And I'm so glad that we get this opportunity to love on you, to say we're proud of you and to be a part of this journey with you as Anthony, even though we still call you Santos, like, to be a part of this journey and to just love you all the way through. So I'm so, I guess, excited to be a part of this podcast with you. Even though it's just a segment to just. Just say, hey, I'm here. I love you, I'm proud of you, and if you need anything, I will always be here. Like I said, I love you like my brother because I see you as my brother. I don't see you as my cousin.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

I love you.

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

I love you too, Mama.

[Gina (cousin/sister)]

You know?

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Nah, it's a. It was definitely rough, you know, going to my mom's funeral, you know, I didn't know what to expect, you know, and it took a lot to be able to get to go to that, you know? Cause there's a whole bunch of logistics that had to be taken care of because they're like, well, hold on. Like, we have to dig into the archives to find out that you're really related, right? We have you down there's. This is your mom, not this. You know, and what's crazy is that my adoptive mom even went through the lengths of getting my old paperwork and stuff to me, like, nah, he needs to be able to go to that. That was so huge for me, you know, because I'm like, here's a whole chapter of my life that I. I've never got to really explore, you know, and at that time, you know, I didn't know I was going to ever come home. You know what I'm saying? I still had. At that time, it was still 20 plus years left on my sentence. I just was unsure of, like, will I ever get this opportunity to really create memories and be able to, like, love on y' all back. I remember I sat up front with Tasha the whole time just to hear, you know, that people are gonna be there and that people love me, you know, that was the last time I got to see Clayton. It was just tough, you know, and then knowing that I had to go back, you know, it's hard to stay in contact when you're in prison because, like, everyone's intentions are good, even mine. But yet calling's hard and trying to let people know, like, you're there for them, but you're not really there for them. You know, it's. It was. It was. It was rough. You know, I'm like, here are these people that love me, and I love them back, and I don't know when I'm going to be able to really express that. Now I get to hug on y', all, love on y', all, you know, get to eat some good food, you know, get some grub. You know, I think it's only. It's only right that we're able to do this and create this episode today on where Santos on mom's Memorial Day. You know, it's only right because now it's like we're all together.

[Gina (cousin/sister)]

Meet you around the same age? I believe so. Well, I'll be 35 this year. And aren't you already 35? Okay, yeah. So you're a year older than me. So, like, said we grew up as basically brother and sister because, you know, black household for your first cousins are basically your brother and sister. So, like Linda had said, when we went, was it Calvary Baptist? I believe we went there. We saw you, and like you said, when you know family, you know them, and so it's just like, no, that. That's. That's family. That's our cousin. Like, we. Like, it's just the instant you feel it, like, no, like. Like she said, even though it was a different name, like, no, that's. That's our family. Like, we know. And then all of a sudden, you were gone again. And like I said, when we looked up the pictures of where the Calvary Baptist was and I seen that, like, I kind of got emotional, too. I was like, dang. I remember every Little detail and every little thing and how it happened. Like I said, the last time we saw you, you were, you know, shackled up, and it was your mom's funeral, and it was hard because we didn't want to see you like that. You know, we hated to see you like that, honestly. So it sucked. Yeah, I just. I don't know. The emotions were heavy, but it was the emotion of a passing and then the emotion of seeing somebody who's locked up, who shouldn't be. You get what I'm saying? We didn't really see you again until, like, Linda said, the. When we went to the event. And it was just amazing to see you in that light, amazing to see you prosper, amazing to see you do so many great things. And like Linda said, we're so very proud of you. We're glad that we can hug on you and love you and glad that you're able to be here and be around us. And it's like I said, even though you've been gone all those years, it's like no time was missed, basically. You know, it's just automatic because, like, say when. You know, family, you know, family. So we love you very much. We're so very proud of you. And even though, you know, you have a whole damn chains, like you said, you're always gonna be Santos to us. So when you hear. Hear us calling him Santos, I'm sorry, because that's just. I. I can't bring it to call him Anthony because I don't know him as Anthony. I'm sorry.

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

I can't do it.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

It's funny to hear every time I go into a space, right? Everyone's like, that's Eunice. You know, that ain't Santos. That's Eunice. You know, And I remember when I first got to connect, you know, the first connection was with Starkesha and DeMarcus. I was at Epic center, and they were coming in, and Tay was there, you know, And I was at the Epic center, and this lady was like, man, what's your last name? And I was like, covert. She's like, nah, what's your last name? I'm like, brown.

[Sister Helen Prejean]

She's like, oh, I know your family.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Is your name Santos? And I'm like, yeah, that's my name. And she was like, I'm gonna bring your cousins down here. Like, they'd love to see you, you know, and they brought him down, and I gotta meet with them. And then I remember Starkesha reaching out to Tasha. We went to the Southeast center, and Tasha came out, and I remember the first thing she says, like, man, that's Eunice, man, from a distance. And as I was getting closer, you could just see that the. The light in her, in her mind went off. She seemed like, no, that's my little brother, you know, and. And then life happened, you know, I made a lot of choices. I was running the streets, doing a lot of things, getting involved with gangs, and, you know, I was trying to figure out where, where, where did I stand? It just so happened that my choices led for me to do some crazy things. And I ended up in prison, got a 36 year sentence, you know, and I just couldn't help but be, like, upset at myself because, like, here was my opportunity to reunite and connect and grow. And then I was just so immersed into the street life that I put that before everybody, you know, and now I get a chance to do it right. I get a chance to put y' all first. And Tasha, my big sis, you know what I'm saying? You know, there's many things I wish I could have did different to be a better brother, you know, I feel like I could have been another support system. You know, you go through all the ifs, but now instead of ifs, it's going to be when, when we get to do this, when we gonna make this happen, when this is gonna happen. I just want the people to also be able to hear your voice too, Tasha, you know,

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

Well, mine's kind of different. When they first took my brother from me, it was hard, you know, I was his big sister, you know, and he was just supposed to go stay night at my cousin's house and come back home. And when he didn't come back home, it was pretty hard for me. But I got through it by myself. Us both living in the same household. When we united back together, I was happy about that. You know, I got to see him, you know, even though it was not his choice of living, but not mine either. But we both made it and was both happy to see each other, and I was happy about that. But when he got taken away from me again, it was. It was heartbroken. Really heartbroken. But like you said, we all make bad choices in our life and we all can make it better. But I'm glad he's back with us right now and me to do a better change in my life too. Also, without my brother, I feel like I can do. I would have been doing things better, but I made those choices for him. Not being here, I shouldn't make that as Excuse, but I feel like he's my big brother, but even though I'm the big sister, he's my big brother to me. You know what I mean? And wow.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

No, it's a lot.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

It's a lot. But it's all new genery now, and we all gonna make it together, be a better life together. I changed a lot of things in my life, too, that I'm proud of.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

I'm proud of you, too.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

I love you, brother.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

I love you, too.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

I'm glad you're back with us.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

You know what's crazy is when I was going around and I was talking with my family, and I was talking with Manky and Naomi and Tasha and Linda and Gina and Monk MC and Cousin Tay, you know, there was a common theme, is nobody knows who Anthony is, but they remember Santos. And I didn't feel as if it was, like, disrespect. It was. This was their family member. It was picked up and just removed with no rhyme or reason, taking away his name, placed into a system just to be lost from them. And so when I reemerged back into their lives, that's why they say it

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

the way they say.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Y' all may call him Anthony, but we call him Santos because that's how they know me. That's my name. That's how I was raised. You know, identity is a real thing, and a lot of us go through our life trying to figure out what is our identity. You know, for me, I had to find my identity three different ways. I had to find it growing up in the foster care system. I had to find it growing up in the penitentiary. And then I had to find it by going back and searching out my family and figuring out the truth. The love was real. The only thing that was missing was me.

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

You know, one of the things also that Anthony was really inspired by was his love for his brother. I mean, when you listen to his story in season one, he talked about his brother Jonathan. Jonathan actually had passed from cancer. And that relationship was monumental for Anthony. I mean, it was actually why he changed his life. His brother asked him to get out of there, change your life, and come home, and he did that. And I bring this up because in learning Anthony's story, I mean, when he got out and started reconnecting with his family and learning more things, and when we talk on the phone and I would hear from him, he would update me on, you know, the search for the family. And he said, bro, like, some months ago, he said, bro, I got to actually have another Brother that's still out there, Like a biological brother. He said that to me on the phone. But what if I find my brother? What if he hears this episode? He tells me sometimes, like in his dreams, he thinks about what he looks like or what he might. How tall he might be or what color his hair is. He shared things with me like that. Like, bro, what if my brother looks exactly like me? So just to be. Be able to reconnect with the lost ones, man, his long lost brother,

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

You

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

know, we're still missing one more piece, man. Cause the world may know that they heard about my little brother Jonathan, you know, and what that meant for me to lose him. But I have another little brother named Nicholas that's still in the system or was still in the system, and we don't know where Nicholas is at either, you know? You know, the crazy thing about the system, man, is, like, once you're in it, you're in it, you know, it's. It's that throwing the bottle in the ocean and then not knowing where it ends up, you know? But inside that bottle is all the love and everything that you have that you give out. And you hope one day that whoever finds that bottle just shows them the same love and care that you have. And, you know, I used to pray and hope that one day I'd run into my brother, you know? You know, I had another little brother, you know what I'm saying, that was killed in foster care. And it just hurt because it's like there's all these fractured pieces of my life that I'll never get to really pick up. All the pieces. It's like the vase with the missing piece, you know, you can glue it all back together after it breaks, and it still looks beautiful, it still holds its shape, but there's that piece that's still missing that you wish you knew where it was. Is it under the dresser? Is it under the couch? You know, you search and find and. But yet you still hang on to what you do have. Nicholas, I don't know if you know who your family is. I don't know if you were taught anything about us. You know, I was fortunate to be in the same city. You know, I don't know where they moved you to. I don't know where they put you. But if you ever remember the Browns, the Briggs, you know, and by chance, you stumble across this podcast and this segment, man, I pray that you reach out, you know, I pray that there's an opportunity for a reunification where we can find that missing piece to the vase and put it in there and keep it whole, you know. And until then, we're going to keep that joint up and we're never going to forget about you. We're always going to be thinking about you wherever you are in this world. I pray that you're doing great and amazing things. It's just so hard knowing that, man, there's so much more to life than what we think. We work, we pay bills. My sister got beautiful children. I got beautiful nieces and nephews. And we all just have so much to offer and to give each other, you know? And so if you hear this, bro, just know that we love you, that we're always thinking about you. The thoughts of you are never lost. Hey, y', all, this is your host, Santos, from Concrete mom of the podcast. And it has been a crazy journey. You know, when I went to prison, I didn't never imagine that I'd be coming out anytime early, you know, until later in my sentence. Then I just knew that I was too big for prison. I was too big for my circumstances. You know, they say we live in a fishbowl in there. No. Cause it's always all eyes on you. You know, they thought they had a goldfish in the tank. It was more like a whale in a pond. I outgrew my circumstances. Had to change my environment. You know, God was able to shift that for me and ask him questions. I always wondered if my family loved me, you know, I wasn't giving away. I wasn't giving away, and I can say that now. It wasn't because you were. Weren't worthy. It wasn't because you didn't fit, but it was because some people just felt. Felt away, you know? And it hurts when you find out that sometimes it can be family that gets in your way of your future. Like my Auntie Dorothy said, man, you all know who you are. Ain't no names need to be said. The truth is real and it's painful. And in all actuality, I'm just glad to be back with my family,

[Rachel Cech]

you

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

know, Ain't no person coming in, snatching me out no high chair. Ain't no lies being put on. My grandma talking about she abandoned me. Me, I was in a home full of love, cared for, fed, clothed, laughed withed. But you know, I don't take nothing back, cuz I miss my journey. I got to learn so much. I got blessed with another family that loved me. They took me in as their own and has forever treated me like one of their own, you know, but now I got two families. But the way I see it, it's just one big family. I didn't know what I was going to unbury, you know, I thought about what was I going to gain from this? How was I going to heal after this, you know, have you ever thought about things that occurred in your life that you never faced? Were you kind of just brushing under the rug and you're like, you know, it was so long ago, it doesn't even hold a precedence anymore. Don't fool yourself, man. Our past shapes our future. Our struggles strengthen us. But if we don't fight those struggles, if we don't work through those struggles, there's going to be a piece of strength that we don't gain. And when something like that occurs again, because, you know, history repeats itself, it repeats itself. And if you're not prepared to take that on because you didn't do the conditioning necessary, man. Today is the eighth year of my mom's passing. She died Christmas morning. Gene Brown. Victoria Jean Brown. We released some balloons in her honor can, you know, we could feel her grabbing for him, you know, And I just know that she was in there in that moment with us, her kids together, celebrating her life. But, you know, there's still one more missing. Nicholas. Bro, I know what it's like to not know where you from. And I don't know if you ever had those thoughts. I don't know if the family you're with loved you. I don't know if you remember me or any of us. This is the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life, you know, is go around and figure out, like, what happened in my life. Fill in the missing blanks, you know, I don't know why I was taken. You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of different speculations. There's a lot of different this and that and all these things. But what I do know is that through all of that, we was able to refine each other, you know, reunite with each other. And we're ready to do that with you too, little bro. And I just want to say this, you know, like, I love you guys so much, you know, I never, not once, didn't think about you guys. I never, not once didn't wonder, like, where's the rest of me at? You know, I gotta talk with my moms over the phone. Imagine trying to get to know your mom over the phone, you know,

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

And

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Jean Brown was so much more than a voice, right? She did everything she could to make sure that we were safe in one way or another. You know, like we all make choices, we all make decisions that we think are just impacting us, but it turns out they impact so much more. You know, my decisions impacted so much more, you know, all of our life decisions. But through all that, through sifting through the sand, they say you trying to find a needle in a haystack, right? You know, I searched the whole haystack, man, and I found my family for the world, you know what I'm saying? Where's Santos? He's right here with his family. You know, we had a younger brother, man, that was murdered in a foster home. Foster dad killed him and, and pass it off as sids. The state did nothing to investigate it. It just left it as was. And four month baby, man, it's like four, three, four months. I, I would think in my heart that they didn't mean to be as aggressive as they was. But to, to take out your frustration on a little baby, man, you know, heard a story about this same family just so happened to have my little brother Jonathan when he was a baby and left him outside at the end of your driveway because they found out he was HIV positive. It just left him on the edge of a driveway, outside in the snow and the cold.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

Like

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

how do people like this keep license and dare to say they have a license to raise a child? It just hurts my heart, man, knowing that a system designed is supposed to protect kids from inadequate families, I guess you could say. But yet they're inadequate themselves. You know, they cause them more harm than they are good. You know, people out here chasing a check, some people in it for the right reasons. I feel, you know, my adoptive parents, they was in it for the right reasons. They wanted to love on something. They wanted to give kids a chance. They gave me a chance. You know, my little brother Jonathan was adopted by the same people I was adopted by. It was a crazy experience, man. I remember I was with one foster home when I was young and I used to wet the bed and after I wet the bed, they would take me into the bathtub and hold my head under the water and they pull my head out and they say if I keep peeing the bed that they going to keep putting my head under this water and so I'll be scared. I'd wet the bed. I pull all the sheets off and pull all the blankets off and I'd go hide them, put them in the garbage because I didn't want my head to be put underwater no more, you know. But See, this is the underlying thing that people don't get to hear about. You know, I guarantee there's good homes out there. Look where I ended up. Let's not act like it's all peaches and cream, man. Everything's always all good,

[D. Nelson (host and Anthony's cellmate)]

you know?

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

So I just pray that whatever family got you, Nicholas, I don't know if you're alive. I don't know if you did. I just pray they were good to you, man, that they helped mold you into a good young man. You be a couple years younger than me. I just hope they love on you, believed in you. But if someone out there, anyone out there that hears this, that knows about the Browns and the Briggs, about Nicholas, about Santos, about Tasha, you know, about our stories, you know, like, I'm putting out an APB on my little brother, man, if you know something, you can get, you can contact unincarcerated Productions through our Instagram, Facebook. Man, I would love to gain that brother again. I'm not replacing Jonathan in no way. I just want to put my. My family back together, You know, this ain't a replacement. This is an increase again in the midst of losing, you know, player Santos from right here. Love is unconditional. Love is always searching. Love is reaching, it's holding, it's grasping. And anybody out there that's struggling or wondering, take the leap, man. Seek out. I'm not saying what you'll find may be easy, but what I am saying is that it's better to know than to not know. This is your host, Santos Brown. And thank you for allowing me to share my life with you.

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

It.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

If there was one thing that you would be able to say to Nicholas right now, what would it be?

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

I love you and I hope we can see each other again. Because you were young the last time I saw you, so I don't. Even if I saw you, I would know exactly who you were. So I hope one day I can just hug you. Love on you. If you're doing great. I am so proud of you. I just hope to see you and reunite with you someday.

[Gina (cousin/sister)]

I love you and we miss you. Hopefully you find this and you come around. Hopefully you're still Washington. I don't know, you have a big family. We would love to see you and love on you and support you. So if by some miraculous way you hear this and you recognize our voices or recognize, you know, the names and anything like that, we're not hard to

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

find

[Big Sister (possibly Gina or Tasha)]

you, big sister. Love you. I can remember the day they took you for me was on grandma's porch. Took you right in my hands. But if you are listening to this, your big sister loves you and hopefully we can see you again. We still looking for you. We know what you look like. I mean, we know a Brown when we see a Brown. I hope you are looking because we really do miss you,

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

little bro. I lost a little brother. And man, would it be so powerful to have one back so I can actually do my role as a big brother. So many things I want to be able to teach you. You're a man now, a couple years younger than me. There's so much things you could probably teach me. But man, I wish for that day. Santos Anthony, no matter the name, you know, I'm the same person. I carry the same big heart, I carry the same broad shoulders that tries to put everything on them. And man, it would just be such a blessing, man, to just know that that missing piece could be found in the midst of all that. Man, I love you. I'm here for you. Your mama loves you. She's up there watching over all of us right now. She knows where you are now, you know. And I know that brings her peace in her heart. Cuz she can look down, she knows where her baby's at. And I just pray that somehow she's able to maneuver to bring all her kids back together. And so until next time, little bro, just know your big brother loves you. Man. If I can say anything to young Santos, man, I would just tell him, man, be prepared for the journey that you. You're going to go on. A journey of confusion, frustration, anger. It's going to be a lot. But when you come out on the other side of it, your story is going to be so beautiful, man. And no one's going to be able to take that away from you. You're going to experience pain. You're going to have questions with no answers. But you will find love. You'll find a gathering of people who that will support you, appreciate you, be there for you. You're going to have a fulfilled life, man. But it's going to start off ugly, bro. Just keep your head down, push through the mud and just know that this too shall pass. And when it does, man, just embrace it. Thank you all for listening to this. I pray that for anybody else out there that is seeking and searching, that has a missing family member, that you never stop searching for them. You continuously keep searching for them. Love is powerful, man. And love will bring family back together. My love for my little brother Jonathan helped me get my life Right. The love of my family helped me get my life right. I can only imagine what you're doing in the world right now. And whatever it is, I know it's great.

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

For more than three decades, one family has lived with a heartbreaking question.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Where is Nicholas Brown? Born in Yakima, Washington, to Jean Victoria

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

Brown, Nicholas was only two years old

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

when he was separated from his brothers

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

and sisters and placed into the foster care system.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

Time has passed. Names may have changed, but a family's

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

love and their search never did. Now they are turning to you, the listener, and asking for your help.

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

If you know anything about the whereabouts

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

of Nicholas Brown, please contact unincarcerated Productions

[Santos Brown / Anthony Covert]

on all social media platforms. One message, one lead could help bring

[Linda (cousin/sister)]

this family back together.

[Podcast Narrator / Host]

So this is the hardest story I've ever had to write. I mean, there's no fun way to tell this story, but capital punishment is a part of our history in Washington State and at Washington State Penitentiary. So I'm going to do the best I can this time. A total of 110 executions have been carried out in the state and its predecessor territory since 1849. All but the most recent three were by hanging. The last three were by lethal injection. The first hangings happened on January 5, 1849, when cusis and qualwurst, two Native Americans were hanged for murder. Though executions were pretty rare in the state, there were five in 1939. There was an average of less than one hanging per year from 1849 to 1963, though, but 78 were executed from 1904 to 2010, the last being on September 10th of 2010. There were many tries to abolish the death penalty throughout our history, the last and final being on April 2023, when then Governor Jay Inslee signed SB5087, which formally abolished capital punishment in Washington state and removed provisions for capital punishment from state law. This is a topic of discussion that has split towns and states in half. Some people are for it and some people against it. I'm not even sure where I stand on the topic yet, but there's one person I respect very much, and she's one of our own that was here in town when at least one person was put to death. Let's hear from her now, right here. Concrete mom of the podcast, Rachel Check,

[Rachel Cech]

CEO of Unincarcerated Productions.

[Podcast Narrator / Host]

Yeah, when was the first time you heard about capital punishment?

[Rachel Cech]

Well, the first time I remember hearing about it was in 92 and I was in high school. It was the beginning of my senior year and there hadn't been an execution here in 30 years. I was running the high school newspaper and I thought it would be cool to go do a story on capital punishment. And I didn't really know when I started what I was getting into. Honestly, I hadn't thought about it that much, so I didn't have a strong perspective. But when I started thinking about it and researching it and meeting people that were on both sides of the topic, I quickly realized that I was definitely not for capital punishment. And the biggest seminal moment for that was I was out on the highway. It was a winter night in January. It was the night that Wesley Allen Dodd was being put to death. And I had, you know, looked up what he did, and he was not a good dude. And also, I thought it would be a somber mood on the highway. I thought that people were going to be. We've come to town to protest, you know, against the death penalty. But now we're just going to have, like, a moment of silence while this happens. But what I found were people were literally tailgate partying on the highway, drinking beer, eating fried chicken, whooping and hollering, using it as an opportunity to have a party in January. And you know how the weather is around here. So, like, people have to really want it if they're doing that in January.

[Podcast Narrator / Host]

So seeing that as a young woman, how has that shaped your trajectory in life?

[Rachel Cech]

Well, I always root for the underdog. I'm always looking at, what is it about the situation that makes people, you know, rageful or want to get revenge? In fact, I've probably dissected that more in recent years than anything. But all the work that we do at Unincarcerated, and what I've done in DEI and social justice for 30 years is trying to shine a light on people and systems of oppression that really aren't serving any of us. You know, whether you are somebody who sees justice as punishment or whether you're somebody who sees justice as fairness, which are very different perspectives. I think that the eye for an eye perspective, you know, going Old Testament style on it, it makes the whole world blind, right? That's what they say. It's like gang violence. So you kill somebody in that gang, and then they kill somebody in your gang, and back and forth, and then pretty soon stray bullets hit the neighborhood kids, and it's like, where does it end? Why do we kill people who kill people? In order to show that killing people is wrong.

[Podcast Narrator / Host]

I gotta admit, I can't believe people were standing up for this. Wesley Allen Da, dude. I mean, if there was ever someone who deserved the death penalty, it might have been him. The guy even said if they didn't hang him, he would commit the same crimes again if given the opportunity. And I'm not even going to say what the crimes were, but you can imagine this would be the last dude you'd stick up for. But tailgating and selling fried chicken dinners outside the prison is pretty crazy. Though Don was actually featured in the 1992 Frontline episode Monsters Among Us. His crimes included in the Investigation Discovery TV series Real Detective, the episode titled Malice Dodds, also mentioned in the 1993 episode Born Bad, of the crime drama Law and Order, and in the 2006 Discovery Channel series Most Evil. He was also the basis for an unseen character, a child killer named Wayne Dobbs. In the 2002 film Insomnia, starring Al Pacino. He actually asked to be hanged because he knew he couldn't quit doing what he'd been doing. That's why I said if anyone should be put to death, it'd be him, right? But then I found an interview that Vic did with the nun, an advocate of rehabilitation you might all know from writing a book that was later turned into a movie featuring Sean Penn. Here she is now.

[Sister Helen Prejean]

I'm Sister Helen Prejean. In 1984, I witnessed the execution of a man, Patrick Saulnier. After him, five others. And I wrote a book, Dead Man Walking, to get the story out to the American people. It was based on the assumption that the American people are good. And the only reason they have good bought into the death penalty is first they've been made to be very afraid that there are some people who by their nature, are evil people, irredeemable, the worst of the worst, and the only way we can be safe is by terminating their lives. When you witness something like a human being who's alive and being taken step by step and killed in front of your eyes, and then told that it's all legal and in many ways even blessed by God at Angola and the killing chamber, right before a human being walks through this white metal door to where he's going to be killed. To his left, he sees a big painting of Elijah being brought up to God in a fiery chariot. The implication being, you're going to your death, but this is blessed by God and this is our way of getting you to heaven. So I wrote the book Dead Man Walking and I've been riding the current ever since, getting out to the public to tell the story of why we don't need the death penalty. The death penalty was faulty from its conception. When the Supreme Court in 1976 set these guidelines for the citizens that we as governments will decide we can kill, first of all, they gave an impossible criterion. It's only going to be for the worst of the worst murders. Think of this. Not for your ordinary garden variety murder, only for the worst of the worst murders. We don't have any idea what that means. If somebody says, well, my mother was killed, well, sorry, it didn't happen during a felony. It had to have certain other aggravating circumstances. But she was my mother. How could it not be the worst of the worst? So it's an impossible criteria, coupled with the other terrible thing that they did to give the discretion totally over to the prosecutors from square one in a trial, if a prosecutor does not seek death, nobody's gonna die. You are putting in the hands of these frail, political, ignorant, biased human beings this godlike power to seek the death of a human being or not is driven so much by politics. No big secret that 75% of actual executions since we put it back have happened in the deep South. God, I just. I just have been. I've been with six human beings who've been executed. And when you look at the finality of that and you look at the broken system that gave rise to it, and this snuffing out in this deliberate manner of lives, it just shows you the futility of it and the great arrogance of taking on ourselves as human beings that we think that we can decide when a person needs to be snuffed out and go into eternity. I believe that human beings really can change and be reformed. So thank God we're beginning to wake up to that. But when you just look at the life of people thrown away forever at Angola, where they're still the highest incarcerator in the country, we've given more life without parole sentences for first degree murder, for second degree murder, for manslaughter, for drugs, throwing people away, which of course is straight out of the legacy of slavery. And when in 1976 the Supreme Court put the death penalty back to P, politicians took it to the bank and talked about how we're going to make society safe. And there are some of these people that are so evil by their character or by what they've done, the only thing we can do as a society, we can't put them in prison. They'll kill other inmates, they'll kill guards. And people were made to be afraid. And that's why the people went for the Death penalty. I have been accompanying a man on death death row here in Louisiana for 20 years. Manuel Ortiz is his name. He's innocent. What has him sitting on death row for 30 years. He went in in his 30s, he's now in his 60s. Is the broken system where truth couldn't come out at trial, lies were told. At Manuel's trial, prosecutors refused in discovery to give over sculpture preparatory information to defense that could have helped the truth to come out to the jurors. And remember, the jurors are your fact finders. All you need, the bar is the lowest you're going to get that one juror beyond reasonable doubt finds reasonable doubt in any of these things that are told them that may not be the truth for you not to be convicted. And the jury did not get to hear all of these things that went on in Manuel's trial. And in fact, the DA not only fought for Manuel to get the death sentence, supposedly for hiring somebody to kill his ex wife for insurance money, but then represented the victim's family for the insurance and got 300,000 out of it. If that is not injustice writ large, what is?

[Podcast Narrator / Host]

If that doesn't make you rethink everything you feel about the death penalty, I don't know what will. I mean, putting someone to death that might be innocent, I wonder how many times that's happened in the past. I also wonder how many people were put to death and not even given a trial. We already know there's cases where people were wrongly accused, had evidence planted on them and were playing out, lied against. How do we figure out how to keep these things from happening? The death penalty is gone in Washington state, but you never know when some crazy person might come along and switch things up. I mean, look at all the psychos that are in power throughout the world now and in our history. I still don't have the solution myself, but I do believe there are people that are innocent that have been put to death. Especially down south where capital punishment is still alive and thriving. We have to come up with a universal way of dealing with predators and people who were wrongly accused. It's just one way we can become better as a people. We don't have to be perfect, but we should strive to better ourselves in every possible way. We owe that much to the children and future generations of people who will be here long after we're gone.

[Craig Jackson]

That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bens is a producer and our editor, sound designer and Graphic designer Chris Gates and Nate Bowers are the audio engineers. Nate Megan Sanchez is a producer and handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and Rachel Cech are the showrunners and executive producers. I'm Craig Jackson, one of the newest Voices of Justice Media coming at you from inside the prison walls in Walla Walla. The Washington State Penitentiary and Washington State DOC have made this project possible. For more information, check out our show notes and you can write to us with feedback and questions about the podcast. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. Concrete Mama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.