"You Can Be More Than Me"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Concrete Mama: The Podcast

Episode: "You Can Be More Than Me" (July 15, 2026)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Concrete Mama offers a raw, intimate exploration of parenting and legacy from within the walls of Washington State Penitentiary. Through candid conversations between incarcerated parents, their partners, and their children, the episode unfolds the struggles, strategies, and victories of sustaining family bonds across concrete barriers and societal stigma. In the latter half, the show pivots to expose the harrowing history of medical experiments conducted on prisoners during the infamous "Concrete Mama" era, confronting listeners with stories of exploitation and survival.

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1. Parenting While Incarcerated: Bonds Amidst Separation

The Emotional Costs and Daily Struggles

• Demar and Vanessa’s Story: The episode opens with heartrending voicemail exchanges between Demar (still incarcerated) and his wife, Vanessa, reflecting on 17 years of parenting mostly apart. They recall the stigma and logistical challenges of raising a child with one parent in prison, the emotional labor on both sides, and the central commitment to shielding their son from shame and despair.
  • Quote (Demar, 00:23):

    "I never pictured myself being a single parent … That was so hard for me."

  • Quote (Vanessa, 02:07):

    "Every time you come inside [the visit], it takes a piece away from you. … Seeing you bring my son inside of a prison is something that I've always struggled with."

Maintaining Connection: Letters, Calls, and Presence

• Methods of Staying Present: Guests discuss tools they use to remain emotionally present—writing letters, regular video visits, asking questions to provoke thought, and instilling a sense of voice and agency in their children.

  • Raelyn James "Wheezy" (08:32):

    "For me, I write letters. I try to do video visit as many as possible... When we do talk, she listens, and she also knows she has a voice ... because a lot of us as kids was robbed of that."

• Pride and Guilt in Parenting from Prison: The fathers express deep pride in their children's resilience and growth while also carrying guilt and anxiety over the burdens placed on their families.

  • Raelyn James (09:20):

    "I want my daughter to be able to look back at these letters and know that in these words, my dad loved me ... If he had an option, he would be here."

Navigating Adolescence, Roles, and Respect

• Parental Dynamics: Demar and Vanessa reflect on shared anxieties as their son Avanye moves through adolescence—worry about peer pressure, the need for male guidance, and the necessity for honest, respectful co-parenting.

  • Vanessa (14:45):

    "I've always wanted my son to respect me, baby ... I always wanted him to respect me. That's one of the biggest fears I carry coming to prison."

• Avoiding Negative Patterns: Emphasis is placed on refusing to "bash" or belittle the absent parent in front of the child—affirming each other's roles even amidst conflict.

  • Demar (21:17):

    "He's never heard me talk bad about his father or say ... your dad, he was a deadbeat. ... They want to amplify the negative. That is so wrong."

  • Vanessa (23:17):

    "I respect you more when you're absent, especially when it comes to our son. ... He watches how I treat you. He watches me in the nuance, the small moments."

The Children's Voices

• Letters and Calls: The episode includes moving readings of letters from children to their incarcerated fathers, voicing love, longing, and pride, expressing hope for reunification.

  • Child's letter (49:48):

    "Dear Dad, I love you, but I love you forever. I wish you to come home with me. ... I pray for you to come back to love me, hug me and see me, and spend time together."

  • Geneva (53:53):

    "Dear dad, I'm sad that you made a bad decision, but I love you so much and I wish you could come home."

• Adult Child's Perspective: Demar's son joins near the end, expressing mature appreciation for his parents' partnership and sacrifices, and the unique ways his incarcerated father still actively parents him.

  • Avanye (55:31):

    "It's crazy because you're doing better than a lot of these dads are actually in their son's or daughter's life ... You're doing better than a lot of dads who are actually present."

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2. Reflections on Legacy: "You Can Be More Than Me"

Aspirations for Children

• Breaking the Cycle: The hosts repeatedly emphasize the desire for their children to surpass them—morally, emotionally, educationally.
  • Raelyn James (24:11):

    "I just want her to be better than what the statistics say. ... I just want her to soar and reach her potential ... to just be her. Be genuine."

  • Demar (33:31):

    "I wanted him to understand that he can be better than me. And we were raising him to stay out of the streets and not ... smother his self identity."

Parenting Advice to Others

• Empathy and Attention: The fathers caution others to be attentive, compassionate, and honest with their children at all times.
  • Alex (Playboy, 47:17):

    "Be understanding. Listen. Always pay attention to the little cues ... because as hard as it is for us in here, it's just as hard for the kids ... Pay attention, love, be, be passionate in what you say."

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3. Navigating Co-Parenting, Romantic Changes, and Jealousy

• Evolving Family Structures: The realities of co-parenting with ex-partners or partners who move on are discussed candidly, with advice to focus on the child and let go of toxic jealousy.

  • Raelyn (35:40):

    "You have to be, you have to grow, understand that we're not together no more. This is strictly about our child."

  • Raelyn (36:33):

    "If your baby mother is happy with this dude and you're coming with great toxicity, how can you ever create something positive for you to be able to navigate with your child?"

• Communication as Survival: All echo the necessity of open, honest, consistent communication with both children and co-parents to sustain bonds and stabilize families.

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4. The Hidden History: Human Experimentation at the Penitentiary

(Begins at 59:52)

The "Concrete Mama" Era Experiments

• Radiation Experiments (59:57–62:33):

  • 64 prisoners subjected to radiation experiments on their testicles (1963–1971), paid $25, with some also forced to undergo vasectomies.

  • Later, a $2.4 million class-action settlement divided among a fraction of survivors; many died.

  • Podcast Host (59:57):

    "Between the years of 1963 to 1971, 64 prisoners here at the Washington State Penitentiary let a man named Alan Paulson perform radiation experiments on their balls for $25 ... Seems unethical just to find the effects of radiation on the development of sperm."

• Alcohol and LSD Experiments (62:33–65:22):

  • Alcohol: Prisoners consumed hard liquor daily for months as part of state addiction studies. LSD: Some prisoners dosed and monitored under medical supervision for experimental research.

  • Kennigan (64:08):

    "You would go to the hospital at the end of the addiction period ... every pill line, you go up and drink your booze and then go back to your tear."

  • Podcast Host (65:06):

    "Was it top shelf liquor or bottom shelf liquor?"
    [Everyone laughs.]

• Brutality and Abuse in Mental Health Programs (65:32–69:42):

  • The "third floor hospital" and Dr. Hunter’s program: graphic accounts of physical and psychological abuse, forced drugs, and "debriefing" rituals that left many mentally scarred for life.

  • Protective custody did not exist; the vulnerable were exploited or brutalized instead.

  • Kennigan (68:41):

    "They handcuff and chain on each hand, in each leg. ... His goons would come in and do humiliating things. ... Once you're broken down to the point where you beg to be released ... Then once you completed that, you'd be considered a man, and you could walk around and become one of his goons."

Reflection on Morality

• Systemic Exploitation of the Marginalized:

  • The hosts link these historical abuses to patterns of exploitation of marginalized and “forgotten” people, underscoring the need for accountability and public awareness.

  • Podcast Host (71:06):

    "It feels to me like they're preying on less fortunate, marginalized and underprivileged people that needed direction—not extra habits to go with a prison sentence."

  • Kennigan (72:17):

    "I prefer victimized to that, because that's what it was ... The morality of it is something that's. That has to strike at the conscience of anybody that hears those stories."

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Demar, on the power of friendship and partnership (28:20):

  "I'm just grateful that when you went away, we built a true friendship ... and although I was devastated when you went away, I'm also happy that we had that bond and then we became really, really close friends."

• Alex, on fatherhood transforming his life (20:02):

  "When I had my first kid, it was like I didn't live for me anymore ... It's, how can we make these kids better? How can we spoil them? ... They changed your life, man. They really open your eyes to how selfish you can be, too."

• Letter from Geneva (53:53):

  "Dear dad, I'm sad that you made a bad decision, but I love you so much and I wish you could come home."

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6. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Voicemails (Parenting & Separation): 00:23–05:24
• Parenting from Prison – "Wheezy" Interview: 06:15–09:17, 24:11–25:00
• Demar & Vanessa Discuss Challenges, Roles: 10:39–14:45
• Alex ("Playboy") on Being a Parent & Legacy: 16:13–21:09
• Children's Letters & Calls: 49:48, 53:53, 55:31
• Son's Reflections (Avanye): 55:31–59:11
• History of Human Experimentation Segment: 59:52–72:17

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7. Tone and Language

The episode is honest, loving, sometimes anguished but ultimately hopeful and defiant. Family members and hosts speak in passionate, everyday language, showing vulnerability and wisdom hard-won through adversity. The prison’s past is exposed in unsparing, sometimes darkly humorous tones.

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8. Conclusion

"You Can Be More Than Me" is a complex, moving tapestry of family resilience, the ongoing fight for dignity in adverse circumstances, and a searing look into a painful institutional history. The episode stands as testament to the strength of bonds that persevere beyond prison bars—and a call to never forget the lives, voices, and rights of those inside.

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For more, follow Unincarcerated Productions and keep listening to Concrete Mama: a platform for the stories society often chooses not to see.

Transcript

[Craig Jackson]

This program contains mature language that may not be suitable for all listeners.

[Kennigan]

Discretion is advised.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Hi, you reach D. Nelson. Leave a message after the tone. I'll get back to you when I can.

[Demar Nelson]

Hey, babe. I just wanted to talk to you because some things were on my mind tonight, and I just was thinking about how here it is about to be 17 years later, and I'm thinking back when you first left and you first went away and our son was 1 years old. How hard that was, just thinking, like, wow, girl, you about to be a single mom. What is about to happen? That was so hard for me because I just didn't. I didn't know how I was gonna do it. I never pictured myself being a single parent. Never pictured myself, you know, being. Or parenting separately, period. I mean, at that time, I was like, what is this gonna look like with you being incarcerated? That was so hard for me. And just the stigma that comes with, you know, women that are dating men in prison. Not to mention we were already together, you know, five years, and then here you go, you get in trouble.

[Podcast Narrator]

That was just.

[Demar Nelson]

But then having to bring my son up to a prison at first, oh, my God. I used to be so, like, this is not cool. Cause I never had. I didn't know I wasn't a type of child that, you know, was exposed to that type of life. So that for me was just hard. Hi, you reached Vanessa Nelson. Sorry I missed your call.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Hey, baby. You know, when you spoke about when I first left, I definitely understand the emotion connected to that. I mean, I can at least try, right? I can't really fully understand what you went through. We had so many hopes and dreams when we first had our son. Then you fast forward that, and now you're bringing our child inside of a prison. I mean, to this day, that. That still bothers me. Even when I'm inside the visiting room. When you're getting ready to come to visit. There's so many things that go through my mind because when you come to a place like this, especially with a child, it just kind of shakes your reality a little bit. Every time you come inside, it takes a piece away from you. And seeing you bring my son inside of a prison is something that I've always struggled with. So hearing you share that with me, I want you to know I understand. I mean, I try my best to understand because I really don't know what it's like to be you. And you're doing that all alone. You're processing the emotions that take place inside of that visiting room. Unbeknownst to everybody, you're processing that as a mother. You know, when I first left too, the stigma, putting you through the stigma of the single mother, like, I hate it, I hate it. I want you to know, I really do. I hate that so much because you deserve so much more. You don't need that. That stigma is not something that's unique to you are as a woman. And so to know that you had to carry that and internalize that and accept that that was your reality is something that has put me in a lot of different places emotionally. And the current struggles that I still have as a father, knowing that I'm putting my wife through this experience is something that hurts me. Sometimes I feel like my bones are shaking because I want to be so much more for you guys. And the truth is, my son is my responsibility. And with that responsibility, it didn't involve having him come inside of a prison to see me, to connect with me. I'll always end up explaining that that's something that I carry, that's something that's a part of me. And I feel like I've always have to go out my way to show you how much you're worth and things like that. Like, that's something that I'll do anyway. But, you know, I just understand what I've done to you. There's so many setbacks that comes with putting my wife through the process of being a parent to someone who's incarcerated. I carry a lot of pent up emotion when it comes to you being out there doing that all alone. I do sometimes I don't know what to do with that baby. I don't know what to do with that emotion. We had a shared approach to our child, and I know I failed in that area because I'm here.

[Kennigan]

Yeah,

[Vanessa Nelson]

I'm just glad we're doing it together.

[Demar Nelson (to daughter)]

Together.

[Podcast Narrator]

This is Concrete Mama, the podcast

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Concrete Mama, the podcast is one of your hosts, Demar Nelson here. And I want to talk about parenting, the struggles of parenting, the successes of parenting, because there are some people that are parenting from inside of these penitentiaries, these jails and tough circumstances. I don't think when we think of prisoners or incarcerated individuals, we necessarily attribute the struggle or the success of parenting to them. And so I wanted to talk to somebody that I do time with on this yard of over 2,000 people about parenting because I've identified that he's passionate about parenting. He loves his child, and he really is invested in the life of his child and where things go. Man, what's up, brother? What's your name, homie?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

What's up, my brother? I'm Raelyn James. Go by Wheezy.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You got a son or a daughter?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

A daughter.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Okay. How old is she?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

She's seven.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

She's seven?

[Kennigan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How much time you got?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

I got 18 years left.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How long you been locked up?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Five years.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Yeah, I hear accident, too. Where you from, man?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

From Louisiana. Shreveport, to be exact.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You've been living up here a very long time or.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

I got here 2018.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How was your child when you got incarcerated?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

My daughter was 2. Yeah, she just had turned 2.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Was you the hospital when your child was born?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Yeah, I was there. I seen it come out and everything. It was crazy. It was crazy.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You cut the umbilical cord.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Yeah, I did that. Hey, that one. That felt weird.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

I know. I did it, too. It felt like it was kind of, like, tough. Yeah, like gummy. I remember I grabbed that joint with both hands and was like. Tell me about that experience when your child first came.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

When she first came, it was like she was inseparable. Like, I couldn't go nowhere without her because every time she would see me leaving the house, she'll cry. And, like, if she started crying and I pick her up, she'll instantly just stop. Like, when she came to the world. Read to her, talk to her. And it's just a lovely thing that is still ingrained in her to this day. And one of my favorite things is the fact that now we have our own motto. And that's, like, big to me. Positive Vibes Only. I asked her one day, pretty much, like, what does she think about the world? And she told me that it's a difference in, like, the pictures that we paint and mind, she said. And saying that, I was like, that's crazy. Like, you thinking like that. It shows me that you're doing better than I was at 7 years old. And so I asked her, like, negative things, bad things. She was like, no, Dad, I don't want to do negative things. I want to be better. And I always try to instill her to be better than me, be better than her mom. Because that's the thing. If we don't teach our kids to be better than us, they will follow down the same path, I feel. So I just told her that Positive Vibes Only would be our motto. It stuck with her.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How do you connect within a situation like this? Talk about some of the ways in which you've been able to maintain that balance in staying connected as a parent. Because I Mean, you know, people in the world probably don't even think of us as parents. How do you Parent? Parent. It's a prisoner.

[Kennigan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You know, how do you make that possible?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

So, for me, I write letters. I try to do video visit as many as possible, you know, because her seeing my Facebook, Cornlee, you know, it keeps that image of me in her head versus our pictures, you know, And I just ask her questions. When I do talk to her, I just tap into her mind just to see what she's thinking, you know, what I'm saying or how she's thinking, and just get her to see things different, you know? And I love the fact that when we do talk, she listens, you know, And I love the fact that she also knows she has a voice when she talks to me. And that's one of my favorite things, to be honest, is that she knows she has a voice because a lot of us as kids was robbed of that. As, you know, when we get in trouble. Oh, no, shut up, be quiet, don't talk. And that robbing the kid as a voice.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

When you write those letters, what's in those letters to your daughter?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

I want my daughter to be able to look back at these letters and know that in these words, my dad loved me. My dad cared about me. My dad didn't just leave me, you know, here to be fending for myself. You know, if he had an option, he would be here. And I do that because, like I say, she's my legacy. When I'm gone, you know, what's going to be left for her is what I instilled her, which is generational wealth to me, you know, not money or monetary values or materialistic things is what I left behind. And also in the letters is the importance of what she means to me and who she is to me. You know, I try to get her to see through my letters that your life is your own. You can only live it by yourself. I can't live it for you. Your mom can't live it for you. You have to go journey and see things for yourself and experience things, but at the same time, make sure you're doing it for your ultimate goal in life. Like me, my ultimate goal in life is peace. And I try to strive towards that every day and help her do that in my letters as well. You know, questionnaires, you know, just to see where she at, you know, her writing skills and what she want to do when she get older.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Hi, Eurese D. Nelson. Leave a message after the tone. I'll get back to you when I can.

[Demar Nelson]

I think some of the hardest times with being in a marriage, but my partner being away was when our son was sick. For me personally, not being able to have you there by my side when Avanye had to spend several days in the hospital because of his asthma and him almost being on a ventilator, you having to call that is so tough. And I can't even imagine the other people around us that gotta call home and their family member is sick, let alone, don't let it be a child. That is like, the hardest thing. So I can't imagine what you felt. I'm curious to know what you felt, you know, when you would call home and what that was like for you. I just really want to know now when it comes to us working together and trying to make our son see that there's no, nothing out there good in the streets. Nothing out there good with, you know, what these kids are doing, the violence we're seeing, the kids that are out there trying to, you know, be hard or hustling, I think we've done a great job. How do you feel, you know about that? When it comes to what we have tried to install in Avanye, I'm curious to know what you feel, babe. Also, just having you there to guide him, especially, I think when he started high school and his friends, like, one of them was smoking, and he came back and told me, you know, he shared with me that his friends was his friend was smoking and stuff. And I think him having a bond and just that relationship with his mother, I think that's important. But then also, you know, I know there was times where you felt like, hey, I mean, I want my boy to talk to me like, you know, you got that relationship with him. I want that same relationship. What's that like, though? When you hear how a banye, you know, come to me and then you're like, wait a minute, you know, you

[Vanessa Nelson]

didn't tell me that.

[Demar Nelson]

And it's catching you by surprise. I just want to know how you feel about that. But now, I must say, now it is different because he's a little older. I see the reverse, the roles as reversed. You know, he comes to you now with certain things. I don't ever feel away, though. No. There is times that I'm like, okay, but I have to realize that you're a man raising a young man, so that's not my job. So I think that's why. Why our parenting has been so incredible, because I know my role as your Wife, but then also as a woman. Right. You know, I know I can't raise a man in the way that another man can. And even though you're incarcerated, you have done a phenomenal job been partnering with me to raise this young man right. So he does have both his parents, and I just love that. But how do you feel now? Now that Avanye has. This man's about to be a grown man. He's about to be 18. You know, what are your thoughts? I'm just curious to know what your thoughts. My thoughts is you've done a phenomenal job. I'm glad that he's coming to you. He's asking you questions, and you guys are working that out. I mean, there's times that I'm like, what are you guys talking about in there? You're like, excuse me. Mind your business. So anyways, yeah, I'm excited about who our son is becoming. How you reach Vanessa Nelson.

[Vanessa Nelson]

You always ask me that. Like, baby, like, this dude is 18 years old, and he just like walking around and acting like you and driving. He likes the stuff I like. And, like, that's crazy. You know, you asked me about the times where, you know, he would talk to you and how I felt about that. You know, I remember. I've always wanted my son, though, to be connected to me in that way. You know, when somebody comes to you, baby, that's because they feel connected to you. They feel like they can trust you. And I remember when you was telling me all the stuff Arshawn was sharing with you, and I used to be like, man, hold on, man. He ain't telling me about that stuff. You know, I was jealous. I ain't gonna lie. I used to be jealous about those moments because I wanted my son. Our son. I wanted our son to develop confidence in me where he felt connected enough to come to me. You know, when someone comes to you, that's a powerful moment. And I always wanted my son to respect me, baby. Like, I've always wanted him to respect me. That's one of the biggest fears I carry. Coming to prison. I always wanted him to. I didn't want you to lose respect for me, lose love for me. I didn't want our son to lose respect for me. I didn't want him to look at me like I wasn't of value, like I couldn't give him anything good. I carried that for a very long time. You know,

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Man, what should I. Your name, brother?

[Alex (Playboy)]

I'm Alex, AKA Playboy. Glad to be here.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You know, I learned a Lot about you, man. You know, I heard you were an excellent parent and you are still. I want to affirm that. But I wanted to kind of like talk to you about that journey and what that's been like for you coming back into the system. First, how many times have you been incarcerated?

[Alex (Playboy)]

So this is my fourth.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

What's the most time you've done?

[Alex (Playboy)]

I did a five year.

[Interviewer/Host]

When was the last time you was in before this?

[Alex (Playboy)]

2015. I got out. So when I was down last time, I did a little time over there in close custody and did a lot of self searching and figuring out who I was and. And what the problem was and why I kept coming back. So then, you know, I made some goals and stuff and I got out and I just stuck to it, you know, no drinking, no smoking, just pure grind. Not even messing with people if they were on that time. And then our first child was kind of an accident. It was crazy because my homeboy had two girls at the time and they used to give me so much love, like them lovers every time they see Uncle Alex. Uncle Alex, you know. So I was underneath my Mustang and I'm hoping for a boy, you know, I'm a man, I always hope for a boy. Hoping for a boy, hoping for a boy. And I'm underneath my Mustang. I had a 5.0 Mustang. We're putting some exhaust on it and my wife comes out like, hey, we found out what we're having, right? And I knew, just when she didn't say it was a boy, I knew it was a girl. But I was underneath that Mustang with my buddy who has the two girls, girls. And I was thinking, if my girls love me half as much as his girls do, I'm blessed you guys ended

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

up having a girl.

[Alex (Playboy)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How many girls do you have?

[Alex (Playboy)]

I have two girls.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

What are their names?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Alexi and Gigi. Gigi's nine now. Alexi's about to turn five in August.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

So describe each one of them. What are they like? What kind of bond do you guys have?

[Alex (Playboy)]

We'll start with Gigi. She's a. She's a firecracker. She's basically me. As in a little girl. She's got a hard time with being told what's what and how to do things. But she's learning, right? Which is a beautiful thing because for a long time with her, I was like, she was the one child that I had that I was like, man, what am I doing wrong? You know, because here's a little background too, is I grew up my mom was a drug addict. My wife grew up in foster care. So neither one of us had a real good review of how to. Yeah. Or how to. How to parent. So, you know, when you're out there and you're doing these things and you didn't have a good family to learn from, you're making mistakes, learning from them. And then when you do something good, then you're like, okay, that's how we do this. And so with Geneva, we had to learn, you know, you couldn't. You couldn't whoop her butt. You couldn't. Screaming. All of that stuff didn't work with her. She's had to take her stuff, right? And all of a sudden, her stuff would be gone, right? It would take her stuff, and that would be the act, Right. Like, she's a sweetheart. She's, like, opposite.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Every time you.

[Alex (Playboy)]

You talk to her or you hug her, and she just melts your heart.

[Interviewer/Host]

She just steals.

[Alex (Playboy)]

She just steals the show. And it was crazy, too, because when I first had Geneva, then we found out Lexi was coming, I talked to my. One of mine and Brad's really good homeboys, and I said. I said, man, I don't know if I can love Lexi like I love Geneva, because I love Geneva so much that I don't know if I can. Right? And my buddy said. He says, man, you'll see that it's different loves. You don't love them both, you know, equally.

[Kennigan]

Right.

[Alex (Playboy)]

But it's different love. And I learned that quick.

[Interviewer/Host]

We've been close, like super close, brothers close, for almost 20 years. And I will say this, that once you started having kids, once you started having your daughters, you changed a lot. Used to be kind of off the hook a little bit, you know?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

But they mellowed you out a lot. What did that do to who you were having daughters?

[Alex (Playboy)]

I mean, the easiest way to explain that it was. It was like a light switch in my adult life, in juvenile, because I've done a lot of juvenile time. I've done most of my life in prison. I was out for 11 years this last time. That's the longest I even thought about, you know, being alive, let alone being out of prison. So kids. When I had my first kid, it was like I didn't live for me anymore, you know? I mean, I didn't. It was no longer, you know, what does Alex want? Or, what is Alex going to do for Alex now? It's, how can we make these kids better? How can we spoil them? And that's why I didn't have a lot of kids, right? Even though I was out there making good money, I want to be able to spoil the kids I had. Not have a lot of kids that lived. Okay. But yeah, they changed your life, man. They. They just really open your eyes to how selfish you can be, too. That's another thing. I never knew how selfish I was until I had kids, man. You know, you go to that store, you see them shoes, you're like, oh, I want to. But then, first thing that came to my mind was, man, I want my daughter to have the same shoes.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Hi, you reach D. Nelson. Leave a message after the tone. I'll get back to you when I can.

[Demar Nelson]

You know, one thing I was also thinking about how out here I just hear so many women bashing their significant other people that they are with, always downing that person. That's one thing I think our son has never heard. We have our ups and downs. He may hear us, you know, have our little debates or our little disagreements, even arguing a little bit, right. But he's never heard me say, even when I'm mad or when I'm in my feelings, he can contest. I'm pretty sure to this that he's never heard me talk bad about his father or say, you know, your dad, he was a deadbeat. Even when you're making mistakes. Yes, we keep it real about your mistakes and stuff like that. And sometimes I may say, even, you know, your dad makes some poor choices that I'm not okay with. He knows, right? Cause you know, you ain't okay with the mistakes you make. But he never hears me say, your dad is a deadbeat. Even when we're mad at each other. You just like your dad. Those are things that people internalize or they say to their kids, their kids internalize. Or even it could be me saying, you know, I don't want you to take this, you know, the route your father messed up, you know, and you're going to be a mess up. Never will I say that to my son, but I hear people, people out here say that to their kids. They want to amplify the negative. That is so wrong. So I think I'm grateful that he's never. I'm assuming he's never heard you talk and bash me now. Let me know, have you ever bashed me to our son? Confession starts now. All right. I love you, babe.

[Demar Nelson (to daughter)]

Hi, Yarice.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Vanessa Nelson, you know me like, I would never disrespect you. I would never disrespect you behind your back, to be honest.

[Podcast Narrator]

With you.

[Vanessa Nelson]

I respect you more when you're absent, especially when it comes to our son. You know, we have our little tug of wars every now and then, but I'm also mindful that our son is always listening. He pays attention when we're around each other. He watches everything. He watches how I treat you. He watches me in the nuance, the small moments. And that's important for me because I know that that's a teachable moment taking place at that moment. When it comes to you, when it comes to honoring his mother, when it comes to learning from a man how a woman should be treated, you know, how I treat you is how he'll treat his woman and how he'll treat you. I know that. I want him to respect the woman I do. That's the man I want him to be.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

What do you want your child to be?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

I want my daughter to be intelligent. I want her to be extravagant. I want her to be something that she never thought she could see herself as. I just want her to be better than what the statistics say. I just want her to soar and reach her potential, you know, and. And do things that she wants to do and not by the influence of her community or the friends around her. I want her to just be hurt. That's my man. I just want her to be her. Be genuine.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Does she share her emotions with you? Yes.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

What she said about love was crazy. I asked her, I like, what's the difference in love? And she said, love is something that's deep, sacred, and shouldn't be broken. When she said that, I was like, whoa. I was like, okay, that's what I'm talking about. Like, at 7 years old, saying that, I was like, come on. Come on. Like, what are you reading? How do you even come up with that?

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

That's profound, man.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things about her, because I feel like I've created this safe haven with her, that she don't feel scared to talk to me about anything. Like when she get in trouble at school, like, they do this little point system. And I guess she's used to being yelled at, because when I tell her, like, all right, well, what happened? She's like, no, Dad, I don't want to talk about it. And I'm like, why? She's all, you're just gonna yell at me. No, I'm not. I'm like, let's go through the points. All right? You tell me what happened. Tell me what you did, and tell me, what can you do to prevent this from happening again. And I realized that when we have those talks, it's better for her, because now she's like, okay, well, I can talk to my dad. If I get in trouble, he can help me get through this. Now, like I said, that created a safe haven for her, because now when I ask her what's going on, she don't. She no longer clam up and be like, no, I'm okay. There's nothing wrong. When I can clearly hear it now when I say, what's wrong? She goes, oh, well, I'm going through this, this and that. I'm feeling like this, and it's like, that's sacred to me because I know I didn't have that.

[Alex (Playboy)]

Having to bond with my kids out there was. It was just natural because they're my best friends. They're my. They're my homies, you know? But coming in here, I've never had, like, you know, me and my wife took some trips and stuff and been away from our kids for a couple days, but I ain't never missed, you know, no time with them at all.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You've been present?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. First day of school, you know, first walk, first, you know, all the first words, all that stuff. And I got so fortunate that when this did happen, luckily they're out of age that I'm not gonna miss too much. I'm still gonna miss a lot, But. Yeah, but in here, man, it's hard because coming to visit, they don't understand that dad can't come home. You know, they don't understand why my oldest is a little bit more understanding, but she's still. She's starting to act out over this stuff, you know, it's starting to.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

She.

[Alex (Playboy)]

Like I said, she's a firecracker. So she doesn't explain how she's feeling. She just acts out about it.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

When she acts out, what is that?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Like, Mom's having it the hardest because both of my children, they're pretty good. Like, g. Like I said, she's. She's a firecracker. But she always. She does good in school. She does good at sports. Well, all of that's been changing recently. And obviously, you know, the apparent reasons, you know, the authority figure's not there, but I think that she's just hurting. And this is a funny one. So my kids. I could fall asleep anywhere in the house, and still to this day, like. Well, when I was out there, they would come find me, say, because we got three levels in my house, and I'll Be sleeping downstairs when I had my, my ankle surgery because I couldn't get up the stairs, they'd come find me just to cuddle with me, right?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Just.

[Alex (Playboy)]

They just love her. They're missing it, man. They're missing that a mother's love is a real thing, but a father's love for, for a daughter is. It's unexplainable.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, I was, I was blessed to see them in person for the first time at your guys first visit here. Like you said, they just melt you. You know what I mean? Like when they, when they run up to you and hug you, man, they just melt you.

[Vanessa Nelson]

You reach Demar Nelson.

[Demar Nelson]

Hey, honey. I just want to say to you that I'm just grateful that when you went away, we built a true friendship. I think a lot of times people forget that we were together so many years before you got in trouble. And although I was devastated when you went away, I'm also happy that we had that bond and then we became really, really close friends. I think for me that's important. But then I also love how you love me. I love how, you know, you check on me. I love how you make sure that us being even parents to this son, that he's going to be okay. Parenting does not come with a manual. And I'm just excited that I got to share these 18 almost years which we've been together. Okay. I would say, you know, we're going on 21 years. But I'm saying to share these 18 years with you and raising our son together has been priceless because we did a heck of a job looking at our son. He's not running the streets, he's not a gang banger. You know, he wants to be something in life. You know, he wants to be electrician, definitely go to trade school. I'm just excited. So I just love again how you love me first of all, and how you care for me and you are always looking out for me. That's something that is priceless for me personally. I see people out here in the house and then they do not have a relationship like we have, you know, and they're out here and they can't even get along. How you reach Vanessa Nelson.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Yeah, babe. You know, along the journey, it's been trying, it's been heavy. There's also been a lot of victories and that's something that I am proud of because when I look around me, a lot of people don't have those opportunities. I don't see a lot of connected fathers, but the ones that are doing it. I understand their commitment. But early on, like, when I first left, and then us struggling in between those victories, I can remember some memories that I still carry that have been like, whoa. Really? Eye opening as a parent. And then thinking back to you dealing with those things on your very own in the quiet of the night when no one's around you. Just the weight of that emotion. I remember when my son started going through peer issues at school. That was crazy, because I think that was the first time that I felt like I was helpless. Like, I felt like I couldn't really be the father that he needed me to be, the father that I dreamed of being. You know, that was so hard for me. And it was during COVID like, remember, during COVID in here, baby, I could only talk to you for 10 minutes. Like, we didn't have the tablets that we have now to where we can make phone calls from our cell, and we were only coming out a couple of cells at a time, and you had to choose between taking a shower

[Podcast Narrator]

or getting on the phone.

[Vanessa Nelson]

And so sometimes what I would do is I would split my shower and my phone time in half. I'd get in the shower for about two minutes, and then I'd run to the phone, and I would hope that there wouldn't be anything that we were going through that I had to stay on the phone for a long time for, because I know emotionally that's what really carries us when we're connected. And my son was going through that incident, you know, where his friend had passed out from smoking a vape pen, and he told you about that, and then he was trying to figure out how to navigate that. That was a lot because my son really needed me. Like, as a young man, he was, like, asking questions. I went into a deep depression around that time. It was crazy. It was crazy. But I believe that was the glue that we created to get through that together. But that was a lot, you know, to hear my son crying, to hear you saying, baby, like, you know, I know he's a young boy. He's dealing with these things. And I'm calling and I'm. I'm trying to connect, and I'm getting off the phone sometimes, and both of you guys are crying. That was a lot. And then the asthma, then the doctor saying, if we didn't bring him in at the time that we had brought him in, you telling me, like, baby, we could have lost him. Having to be on that machine, all that used to break my heart because you sent me a picture of him in the hospital and my son was hooked up to tubes. And I remember I got the picture of my child in that condition and it broke me into a million pieces, struggles like that. It was like, why am I here? Why am I not there? And it goes back to the choices that I made. And I had to continue to just believe that I could still be a good parent. And then me and you coming together to raise him, like to be a person who could be more than I was. Right? I mean, you know, remember I used to always tell my son, I still do. You can be more than me, Vanier. You're better than me. To the point he says it now, right? You know, he always says, well, dad, I'm better than you. And I'd be like, okay, yeah, you right. You right. I wanted him to understand that he can be better than me. And we were raising him to stay out of the streets and not choose to smother his self identity and his self actualization, who he is, his unique personality as a person, just to fit in. You remember, I drummed that for years and years and years. My son is very authentic and I think that's where we connect because I wanted him to have that. Because I've always been different, baby. You know that I've always been different than how I handled things and how I do things. And our son has that. So when you ask me how do I feel we've done like, I think we've done an amazing job. Amazing. But all that comes just from your facilitation as a woman. Like you've set the stage that has allowed me to be the man I am to my son. And I appreciate you for that. I think raising our son to be who he is today, not have a criminal history, to be smart, to be thoughtful, to be unique, to be educated. I think that that's the greatest gift that I've ever received on this earth. And you provided that. So I feel we've done amazing.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Thank you, baby.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

So how important do you think it is for someone to have, you know, good dynamic with the mother of their children when they're in a situation like this? How do you maintain that and why is it important for one with a

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

younger child, you have to navigate through the mother to even have that communication. And if you don't have that, that tends to lessen the relationship with your daughter if it wasn't strengthened before. And for me, it's also to relationship that they're in too, because that can play a big role in she picking up the phone or not answering, you know, and if they are in a relationship, people can't just be, oh, well, this is my baby mama popping with my baby mama about old things and this and that. No, you have to be, you have to grow, understand that we're not together no more. This is strictly about our child. And a lot of people tend to try to blur those lines and try to reconnect old things. And it's not that. And you know, if it's not that, just let it be for the sake of the child. Because I feel like at the end of the day it would be healthier because we know we're not in this relationship anymore, but in that, how can we move forward even though now you have a relationship. But that's another thing too. If they're in a relationship, you can't be jealous because you're child is around someone else. And that's one of the things I had to learn too is because it rubbed me the wrong way because I'm like, man, well, what if this dude will do this to my daughter? Will do that? And then even then, what can I do? One thing I can say, well, one of the things I did learn from you is the fact that stop trying to stress about things you can't control. And that's another thing that we have to learn to adapt with. And I'm still learning to adapt with because when they are in relationships, you have to put on your big boy hat, man, and sit down and have this conversation with this man that's going to be around your child. So that way, one y' all have a mutual understanding that, hey, this is my child, this is not your child. I understand. You are the, you're the, you're the caregiver for a mother right now. And you're, you know, I'm saying, do what you can to help my child, which I'm not mad at, because if I was with another woman and she had a child, she's a part of the deal, you know, I can't just take care of one and not the other. But in that respect, the other parents boundaries, you know, which is not a bad thing. But people just have to realize that you can't go into this with the same, oh, rah, rah, you can't, because you will never get nowhere. Because if your baby mother is happy with this dude and you're coming with great toxicity, how can you ever create something positive for you to be able to navigate with your child? That's something that I Went through it took me to a dark place for a minute because I didn't know how to maneuver through that. I didn't know how because I couldn't do nothing about it. And it's just that lingering thoughts of, damn, this dude is doing this, this dude is doing that. But at the end of the day, if my baby mama don't want to leave, then what can I do or say? Because if you're going through this and you know you're going through this, why stay? Why keep yourself unhappy if, you know, your daughter is seeing this now, you're showing her that this is okay and it's not. You know, you're creating this image in her mind that it's okay no matter if you're happy or unhappy or not. Stick it out. No, you know, and I don't want my daughter to think that that's okay at all, which I know I can't say. My baby mother is strong. I can't say that. We done had multiple conversations, and I got her to understand, like, at the end of the day, it's not about us no more. You know, it's about our legacy. You know, how can we show her that we're not what people say?

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

How have you and your wife managed to partner on this thing so that you guys can get through it?

[Alex (Playboy)]

It's a lot of communication because she doesn't understand, and she gets worried every time. I don't call when I'm supposed to, but with the kids, like, you know, I try to call. I got a lot of support out there just by doing the right thing for so long. So, like, I try to get the kids off her hands a little bit, because when you're parenting with two parents, it's. It's hard. I can only imagine how hard it is she expresses it. But, you know, just hearing something, you're just like, okay, yeah, I understand, but, man. So it's just a lot of communication and reinsurance and, you know, I don't have a lot of time, so it's not heavy. Like, she knows she has to do this for a long time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Can you explain to the listeners what it's like to see them in the visit room and then have to watch them leave?

[Alex (Playboy)]

I don't like putting the word good on it, because bringing children into a visiting room, to me is. It's hard, right? Because they always ask the questions, what's the. What's he in here for? What does he do? What is this? You know, they're curious. Kids are curious. They want to know they want to always ask questions, so it's a decent experience until it's time to go. And then it's. It's hard wrenching, it's. I almost want to run out. And I had to explain to my wife because she was like, why are you so eager to get back to the unit? Why are you so eager to get out of here?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

What?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Because I'm about to cry, you know, I gotta split up with you guys. I gotta go back in here. You guys are gonna go do that, even though it's hard out there. But. No, that's.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

That's real, man. Yeah. When you call home, what do you hear from your daughters? Do they get on the phone if

[Alex (Playboy)]

it's in the middle of the day, like it's a hi dad and bye dad type of thing. But when they get tired, their brains are slowing down and starting to think, right? So now they're emotional. They just want to stay on the phone or stay on the phone and stand on. So throughout the day, when I call home, it's, it's. They're pretty brief conversation. Hey, just want to check on you guys, see how you're doing. But when it's nighttime when I get in the cell, we're on the phone

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

for an hour, hour and a half,

[Alex (Playboy)]

you know, because they don't want to let me go. They just like that, you know, until they fall asleep. I talk to them, you know, and some nights is crying, you know, I just want you to come home. Cuz, you know, we're, we're. We're a religious family. We always pray together and stuff. That's another thing, man. I don't know if you guys are religious, but like praying with your kids, seeing them actually believe in stuff, that's. It's a trip, you know, every time they do pray, they always pray, please let my dad come home tomorrow. Or, you know, my youngest is like, you know, in six minutes, please let my dad, you know, she don't understand the concept of time or know that

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

yet, but I understand.

[Alex (Playboy)]

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, man.

[Demar Nelson]

How you reach Vanessa Nelson.

[Vanessa Nelson]

I get a lot of questions sometimes, you know, when it comes to our relationship, I think it's so one of one, right? Because I do know that it is unique that we've made it this far through everything that we've been through. But I also know that I can't always, always give people the behind the scenes view because they don't understand that our connection is rooted in something that preceded prison. Right. So when you talked about how we were together before incarceration, right before this prison thing. Maybe you've known me since I was 15 years old. People forget that. And our connection is something that I have pulled from. Because the truth is, I've had a broken heart since I was a kid, babe. Like, for real, Vanessa. I've never felt the love of my mother, like, you know that. So since I was a child, my heart has always been broken. And the love of a mother, I actually learned that from you. You have modeled that. And one of the things that makes you so unique as a person and as a mother, like, you have never changed. And that's something that I noticed as you mother or son. And then our connection as parents. Like, I'm used to people disappearing or coming around for a moment. So your love for our son and for me has, like, been my anchor at sea.

[Podcast Narrator]

It has.

[Vanessa Nelson]

It has anchored me when the waves are crashing against the spirit of my life. You have anchored me because it's immovable. You've never moved. Nothing has ever penetrated our love. And that's something that I admire about you. You have a unique way of showing up. And I've always wanted to display respect for you in a way that allows you to vibrate as a person and feel good about our love. You know, I always ask you that every now and then. Like, how does my love feel? I think that comes from a place of just wanting to know, are you okay? Are we okay as a family? Because I know loving someone in a position like this and then allowing us to be united as a family the way that you do, it takes a lot. You give a lot of parts of yourself that people don't see that I don't see, you know, And I always try to check in on that. And when we're around each other, I want our son to see that. I want him to feel that. That's a part of my parenting. People often wonder about that. They wonder about the connection, you know, we always talk about, guess who said this? People in the family have broken our hearts saying things, inflammatory things towards the fact that I'm here and you're there. Why are you holding on, and how do you do it? People always. They want to know that, but what they don't realize is that they're looking at the physical side of a relationship. That's the cheat code for me and you like me and you always really friends. They fail to understand that, like, we're really friends. You know, I have this picture in my soul of you. When I got shot. And I used to wake up in that hospital bed and you were sleeping next to me in the hospital bed. You remember that? That was crazy. Like, I was like, how are they letting you do this? Like, the nurses, all that, they were coming in to actually administer help and care to me. And this is before our son was born. And you were laying in that hospital bed next to me. You would sleep next to me in the hospital bed. That's who we are, me and you. I know you just want a safe place, so I intentionally approach you in that way to make sure you got a safe space. To make sure you can be who you are. To make sure that you're always validated in who you are as a person. What you have to offer. The sacrifices I know you're making for me, for our son, holding on so that we can one day see our family back together again. Because our legacy is linked. I want you to know that. I guess all I could say is thank you. With your support, you've allowed me to be a father, man.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you.

[Vanessa Nelson]

I appreciate you so much. I honor you, I adore you, I admire you. I look up to you.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You ever dreamed about the moment where you get to reconnect with her?

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

Yeah, I do it hot. She be like excited. She run all day, jump up, grab me. No matter how old it should be. I feel like she just. Oh, dad. Hey, how you doing? Oh, man, I miss you. Kisses and everything. I see it like one night, one night actually, I woke up crying. To be honest, it's crazy. I woke up crying because I felt. It felt so real that like I got out and like I hugged her and I woke up, I was like, damn, I want to see that feeling for real because it made me feel so good. And from that, like when I woke up that day, that whole day, I had a like bomb day. Like I felt so good because I was.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

It was a spiritual moment, huh?

[Kennigan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

You felt that love? Honestly felt it.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

And it was like I was like, damn, I'm looking forward to that day so bad. It's like, I know I'm a cry. I know it. I'm a cry. Break down hug, the whole baby shower with kisses and yeah, I see it vividly. I see it so vividly. And that's why I do what I can to make sure that we stay on the same path so that can come true.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

What is something that somebody on a tier, somebody who is a father to some daughters or a father to a son. What's your advice?

[Alex (Playboy)]

Be understanding. Listen Always pay attention to the little cubes. Because sometimes, especially with kids, they ain't just gonna come out and say what's wrong with them, but you gotta pay attention and know when something's off with them. Because as hard as it is for us in here, it's just as hard for the kids to be, be without their parent, if not harder, you know, because they're trying to learn now and, and they're missing one of their teachers, right? Pay attention, love, be, be passionate on what you say, mean what you say. Don't ever tell your kids something that you don't mean. Love them, love them as much as you can. Be soft with them. Everybody can be a parent as long as you put your heart into it. You're like a TV screen, right? And this ain't even for kids. Just like D now. I watch D now all the time and I see some stuff that he's doing. I take it in, right? For red, I see red all the time. I take some stuff that he's doing. We're TV screens, man. People watch us as much as people try to say, oh, I don't know, I'm my own person. No, man, everybody's created off of what they've seen and what they've done in life, right? Good and bad. Everybody. And I mean to the Harry Potter, all the way to the top gangsters, right? Everybody's being watched and everybody is gonna make an impression on somebody.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Is there anything you want to say to her?

[Kennigan]

Yeah.

[Raelyn James (Wheezy)]

What's up, little big head girl? I love you. I love you, baby. You my twin. You know that. You know that is here for you regardless. And through this journey, we're gonna be here together regardless. The goods, the bads, the highs, the lows, we're gonna, we're gonna find a way, a way to navigate through this and be better than we ever was. Because at the end of the day, you know, we always keep our positive vibes. Only without that, you know, it's nothing else for us. Negative things, stay away from it. Take care of yourself. Protect yourself at all times. Take care of your mother, you know, and just make sure you're still striving for the goals that you want to set for yourself and the goals and the things you want to do in life. Because at the end of the day, baby, your life is your own and only you can live it. Don't be influenced by other people that so called call themselves your friends. Because my philosophy on friends is that at one day they're going to end because it's built with a word of destruction. So cherish your relationships, cherish yourself at all times, and just be mindful of the people you kick it with. I love you, baby.

[Child (Letter writer)]

Dear Dad, I love you, but I love you forever. I wish you to come home with me. I. I miss you. Wish you to love me. I hope you come out of jail soon sooner than you can see me. Love you. I love you. By the love of my heart, Dad, I pray for you to come back to love me, hug me and see me, and spend time together.

[Demar Nelson (to daughter)]

I love you too, baby. Just hearing your voice, it sparks something new in me that I wish that you know I was there with you. But knowing that you love me with everything in you, it goes to show that everything we talk about through our phone calls and video visits, everything resonates with you. Just keep this love for each other. Because when we come home, you know we're gonna do great things together, no matter what, you know, despite people, what people might say to say to you about me. Just know I love you with everything in me. You're my everything. You're really the spark that keeps me going. Because without you, I would have gave up a long time ago.

[Vanessa Nelson]

And you're just the reason that I

[Demar Nelson (to daughter)]

want to do better in life. Because when you came into this world, you changed my perspective of a lot of things that I really didn't care about. And just seeing your smile, you know, seeing that you're smart, intelligent, beautiful, it makes me feel good. It makes me feel loved. Love that. There's something in this world I appreciate. There's something in this world that when I'm gone, that's still going stronger. And I just love you. Love you, love you, baby. Oh, my God. Like words can't really explain how much I do. I wish I could hug you. There's a father daughter dance coming up. I'm gonna hug you and we gonna get up there and dance. I just can't wait to see you, baby. You know? Yeah, I know. You be talking shit. We gonna talk shit to each other. I love you. We gonna make things right. We gonna grow. Because like I say, when I come home, you gonna be with me. Don't care what nobody say. It's gonna be me and you against the world forever. And I love you forever. You're my everything. My heart just goes out to you. I love you, baby. I love you. Oh, my God. Keep your head up. Learn more than what school is giving you. Seek knowledge that it's unknown in this world. And learn yourself. Because a Lot of us don't take time out to learn ourselves. Learn yourself and what you like and don't like about this world that'll help you succeed in life. Take care of yourself, take care of your mama and just stay smiling. Don't let the negativities of this world take you out of this. I love you, baby.

[Demar Nelson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there anything that you want to say to Tabitha, Geneva and Lexi? Your wife and kids?

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Yeah, start with your wife.

[Alex (Playboy)]

For my wife, man, I just. Tabitha, man, you're such an amazing person. It's. It's incredible how well you can do what you do on a day to day basis and still hold it together. My hat goes off and I got you. When I come home, man, you could take your month off and go. Go suck your feet or something. Whatever you want to do. I love you. I love you so much. And thank you. And then to my girls. Stop giving your mom so much trouble. No, you guys are amazing and you've made being a parent such an amazing experience. You saved my life 100%, through and through. Without you, I definitely would be, you know, either dead or in this place for a really long time. Time. And I owe you guys my life. And I'm sorry. I'm truly sorry for being here and doing this.

[Child (Letter writer)]

Dear dad, I'm sad that you made a bad decision, but I love you so much and I wish you could come home. I miss you a lot. School has been going really good. I got to spend a few days at my aunt's house playing with my cousins and I had a really good time. I love you and I think about you every day. I hope you are doing okay. Love, Geneva.

Dear G Squeeze.

[Vanessa Nelson]

What's up?

[Child (Letter writer)]

I love you and I'm glad that everything's going good in school. I'm hoping that you had a good time at your aunt's house. I also want you to know that even though I made a bad decision, it doesn't mean that things are going to be that bad from here on. I will be home soon to take care of you guys. So hopefully you're being good with your mom and taking care of your sister because you know, that's important. That's being a big sister. You always gotta watch out for your family and make sure that they're okay. Yeah, I know that's a lot of responsibility for you, but I think you can handle it. And I love you so much. And I hope that when I call that you and me can have a good conversation instead of you running off all the time. I love you, baby.

[Podcast Narrator]

Have a good day.

[Vanessa Nelson]

You reach demor Nelson.

[Podcast Narrator]

What's up, dad? For me? You know, your boy's 18 now. It's actually crazy you guys been through so much, but I just want to talk to you about how you and marriage, parenting me, even though you're not even here physically, you know, I really respect you because you love that woman so much, it makes me love her even more because how much respect you got for her, you know what I mean? Like, it's just. I see it, you know, you wouldn't let nobody, not one person, disrespect her, not even me. I wish somebody would. Like, I don't even play like that, you know? Like, I love you in my two ways. I really appreciate you, you know, calling me every day, making sure I'm good, make sure I'm going to school, you know, making sure I'm taking out the tongue. Just a little stuff, you know, so mom won't have to get mad and stuff like that. But it's crazy because you're doing better than a lot of these dads are actually in their son's or daughter's life. What I mean by that is you could have a dad in the household, but they're not there physically for their kids, probably not even mentally. You know, they're just there. They don't check up on their kids. They probably just throw money at them. You know what I mean? Like, you. You've done so much for me, and it's like, I'm, like, really thinking 18. And I, like. It's like, I feel like I have a good life. You know what I mean? Even though where you're at, like, I sometimes thinking, oh, my dad. Like, he's gonna come home. You know, I can't wait. But it's crazy because I never cry. It's weird. Like, I feel like the one time I ever cry was on your birthday when I was like, dang, bro, I

[Vanessa Nelson]

wish I could celebrate it with him.

[Podcast Narrator]

You feel what I'm saying? It's like, you know, I really think about that, but it's like, me, I haven't cried in literally two years about you coming home, and I want you to come home so, so bad. And I just be thinking, like, why don't I. I'm out of tears. Like, why is. Do I not miss my dad? Like, I miss him. Like, what is going on? So, yeah, back to.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Back to mom, too.

[Podcast Narrator]

You know, Just like, you guys are a team. This is not just a. Oh, that's my. My baby Mama. You know, I mean, like, you guys are married. You guys been together for so long. This is life. Like, this is.

[Vanessa Nelson]

This is what.

[Podcast Narrator]

You guys brought me into the world. And, you know, me being 18, I. I have to, you know, be careful with my decisions now. And, you know, you taught me so much. You know, I'm not. I'm not willing, like, I'm willing to keep learning from you. I'm not gonna stop because, you know. You know, you brought me to this world because, you know, you. You love me. And, you know, you guys thought about having a baby, which I came. So, you know, as I get older, I'm gonna keep learning because, right, I want to be like you, dad. But would be a better version. Like, better version, 100%. So, dad, keep doing what you're doing. You know, I really look up to you because not a lot of dads are like you. You know what I mean? You know, I got this word from my dad, and I just can't stop saying it. Esoteric. Whoever don't know the meeting, go look it up.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Thank you, son. I appreciate you for being open. Appreciate you for allowing me to be in your life in this capacity, even though I'm here also, man. Congratulations on graduating high school. My son just graduated high school. Man, I'm so proud of you. The world's amazing place. It's big out there. I know you'll achieve a lot more. I'm right beside you. Me and your mom. The world is gonna get bigger for you now. I know you can handle it, though. And I'm still here. I'm right next to you.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Now it's time for some history.

[Vanessa Nelson]

Let them have it, Red.

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

How down and out would you have to be to let someone radiate your testicles? What if it was the 1960s and you only made 25 cents a day and someone offered you $25 to do an experiment? Would you think about it? Or would you tell them to get fucked? I know I would. Between the years of. Of 1963 to 1971, 64 prisoners here at the Washington State Penitentiary led a man named Alan Paulson performed radiation experiments on their balls for $25. I know you probably think I'm lying, but I'm definitely not. It's public record. The Department of Energy, or Atomic Energy Commission, as it was known back then, even funded it. They got an internationally renowned doctor from the University. University of Washington to conduct the experiments. And who did they choose to conduct the experiments on? Men who had hit rock bottom and were down and out Here at the pen, poor people, most likely with a history of addiction problems. Seems unethical just to find the effects of radiation on the development of sperm. I know it sounds like something you'd read in the tabloid at the local grocery store, but this is real. The then super Superintendent of the Pen, B.J. ray, and the then director of Washington department of institutions, William Conti, both encouraged prisoners to participate in Dr. Paulson's program. On March 14, 2000, a class action lawsuit by Washington state prisoners who had participated was settled for 2.4 million. But 40 of the 64 prisoners had died. Of the 24 survivors, 16 had come from afford to prosecute their legal claims. Who knows what happened to the other aide. The lawsuit was filed in the U. S. District court in Spokane, Washington and alleged the former prisoner's federal constitutional rights and Washington common law rights had been violated. They also said they hadn't given fully informed consent to take part in the experiments. What is unclear is how the money was divided among the men that were involved. When about the men who died, did their family see any of that money? If not, the 24 survivors would see about 100,000 each. That's not anywhere near enough for my health or life, if you ask me. But because of the way prisoners like us are viewed by the public, it doesn't surprise me at all. Who better to experiment on than the forgotten cannotuga Was here shortly after with a few of the guys that have been experimented on. I also found that that radiation experiments weren't the only kind that were happening enough for me though. Here's Kennigan to tell you what he knows.

[Kennigan]

The one that seemed the scariest to me was the radiation one. And I want to point out I was not here when these were active. They had just finished, I believe the alcohol program had just finished just before I arrived at the prison. With the radiation you had, you had to allow them to radiate with. I'm not sure what the process was, whether they used like x rays or microwaves or whatever, but you had to agree in writing to a vasectomy at the end of the test. And you had to be radiated a certain number of times. And then they would test and find what the results were like your sperm count, probably, stuff like that. I only know know personally one person that went through the program and he worked in the hospital for most of his sets here. That was Bob Harstead. His twin brother was on the water tower with me. Ron, we're all from the same neighborhood. Bob was already here ahead of Ron and I, but he went through the radiation program, but he refused to get the vasectomy at the end.

[Interviewer/Host]

And did you notice anything different about him after you did the experiments?

[Kennigan]

No. He was just the same guy he'd always been since we were kids. And I'd known him pretty much all my life.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what were like the rumors and stuff that people were talking about regarding the experiments?

[Kennigan]

Oh, they thought everybody was an idiot that would let them do something like that. Same thing with the alcohol program. Of course, there was alcoholics in here who wanted to be in that. You had to drink. I think it was 8 ounces. I'm not sure if it was whiskey or grain alcohol or what. But you had to do it every pill line.

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

It was hard liquor.

[Kennigan]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

So you went to pill line and got a shot.

[Interviewer/Host]

Shot of hard liquor.

[Kennigan]

They brought it over to the unit. They were confined. They weren't allowed to go out into general population. They kept them in one north for the program. A lot of the programs at the time, the alcohol, you would go to the hospital at the end of the addiction period. I don't know how long they kept you, but you. Every pill line, you go up and drink your. Drink your booze and then go back to your tear.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

That's crazy.

[Kennigan]

In the end, they took you to the hospital, strapped you down, put monitors on you, and recorded everything that you went through when you were experiencing the tts.

[Interviewer/Host]

How long did the alcohol program go on, do you think?

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

The testing.

[Kennigan]

Well, I don't know about the testing part. I believe they said that it was four months though, for the addiction part.

[Interviewer/Host]

You had to drink liquor every day for four months?

[Kennigan]

Yeah. Some guys probably like that right up to the end. I understand that that's a pretty severe kick.

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

Was it top shelf liquor or bottom shelf liquor?

[Kennigan]

No clue, man. No clue. I don't think you got a choice like going to a bar and everything was monitored and you couldn't like swallow some and take and sell it to someone else or something like that. You had to drink it right in front.

[Interviewer/Host]

It wasn't no Don Julio or no Johnny Walker Red or nothing like that?

[Kennigan]

Yeah, I doubt it, man.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's crazy. What other experiments do you know of that?

[Kennigan]

The LSD program.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, can you explain that a little bit?

[Kennigan]

And I. Those people had to stay in the hospital on the third floor under Dr. Hunter's supervision.

[Interviewer/Host]

So Dr. Hunter was in charge of the LSD program?

[Kennigan]

He was in charge of it or if he was just the monitor. Okay, I'm not sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

About that because I know the radiation experiments were funded by University of Washington and also the Department of Energy in Washington. So I wonder who is funding those. I wonder if it was like the government.

[Kennigan]

Well, probably because the government. It's evident now. When I was a kid, LSD wasn't even illegal yet. But on the nightly news you'd see Walter Cronkite on there talking about it. They never really exposed to a lot later that the military was actually testing it on soldiers.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, the radiation experiments were throughout the 60s and I think in like 71. Do you know about what years the alcohol and LLSD were?

[Kennigan]

Well, LSD would have been earlier but the alcohol would have been about the same time as the radiation.

[Interviewer (Chris Gates or Nate Bowers)]

Okay.

[Kennigan]

You know, they see an opportunity to target a certain group of subjects that they can test on that are willing to take their little 50$. I forget what they call it. Some kind of gratuity that was contracted into the thing would give you 50 bucks a week, which was a lot of money for a prisoner in the 60s and 70s.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think the hourly wage was 25 cents an hour or 25 cents a day. I can't remember.

[Kennigan]

Depends on where you worked. I can't believe that the prisoners went for. I would have never let him radiate me.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think they were targeting people that they knew were addicts?

[Kennigan]

I think they advertised in the prison and then I'm surprised that there wasn't something in one of the prison newspapers that were published at the time. I think they just advertised and people showed up, they interviewed them and cleared them for. They had a lot of doctors at that point in time coming over from the Utah. Our doctor was pretty horrible doctor, but they had doctors come in. They were pretty liberal with the issue on the medication.

[Interviewer/Host]

And that's another thing too is I talked about Dr. Hunter's program last year. Could you expand on that a little bit?

[Kennigan]

Well, the reason pill line was so crazy because at that point in time there's very little drugs in the prison. Everybody got their drugs through the pill line. Visiting room was really strict. You had a long table in the middle and your visitors stayed on one side, you stayed on the other side. The guards at the end of the table looking down the middle table to make sure nothing was passed. So visiting, getting drugs that way was I guess a lot harsher of effort than nowadays or throughout the 70s. I should say nowadays it's a little different as well. But Dr. Hunter's program was. It was a situation where they didn't have protective custody yet. In the state, they barely invented the witness protection program, but they didn't want to have guys on the yard that were. Were known informants or serious sex offenders or something like that. They'd have trouble on the yard. They would let them hide on Dr. Hunter's floor. They became his goons. Yeah. And they did horrible stuff to people. The one thing that probably stands out the most is you had to start out four pointed if you wanted to be in this program.

[Interviewer/Host]

Can you explain that?

[Kennigan]

Well, that's where they handcuff and chain on each hand, in each leg. You're on your back or you're on your stomach, and you personally permanently there, anchored to the bed. And then his goons would come in and do humiliating things. Like what? Well, urinate on you, rough feces on you. Just completely try to humiliate you, break you down. And once you're broken down to the point where you beg to be released and you have to wear a diaper and crawl everywhere. A contemporary term for what he was doing was the debriefing. So you'd have to go back from birth to now, everything that you did, everything you heard, everybody you knew, what crimes they committed, what you committed, what you thought about, everything your family life, the whole bit. Then once you completed that, you'd be considered a man, and you could walk around and become one of his goods.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's sick, man.

[Kennigan]

Most people in general population were terrified of the third floor hospital. The ones that wanted to go there were in danger. General population.

[Interviewer/Host]

What were people looking like when they came back out of there? Do you ever see anybody go and return one?

[Kennigan]

Don snuck. He went to horrible thing but didn't break. Dr. Hunter finally gave up, Sent him back to big Red, to the hole.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did he talk about what happened when he got out?

[Kennigan]

That's where I heard. Learned a lot of it was from Don. He's still in the system. I'd known him since we were kids. This whole way, he got his death penalty behind killing one of those guys. They used to take him and make him a tear porter in the hole. When they got to the last couple weeks of their sentence and they were getting released, Dr. Either would send them over to the hole so they could be off of that floor, and they could. It was horrible. And he ended up seeing one of the people that had done horrible things to him when he was. And he killed him for it.

[Interviewer/Host]

You think the. The mental health experiments changed him?

[Kennigan]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a pretty sharp guy still, you know, but he's he had a real tough time. He did a lot of time in the hole and stuff like that.

[Podcast Host (Craig Jackson or Megan Sanchez)]

Alcohol and LSD testing. Are you serious? It makes sense, though, because if they'd use prisoners as guinea pigs for radiation testing, then they definitely use them for. For drugs and alcohol testing. And I'm sure it was probably a lot easier to find people that wanted to catch a buzz in the name of science. Think about it. If you're doing time and someone wanted to pay you to get drunk or trip on acid, would you do it? What if they promised it would be safe and instead of looking down on you and judging you, they were happy you participated, even praised you for it? Feels to me like they're preying on less fortunate, marginalized and underprivileged people that needed direction. Direction, not extra habits to go with a prison sentence. An officer here at the PEN and myself have done some research and found that testing on prisoners was commonplace back in the early to mid-1900s, almost as if it was the number one choice for the government and drug companies. Testing like this has stopped at the pen. And I'd like to think that the powers that be would never let this happen again. But I get concerned that it may be happening, in words, other. Other parts of the country right now. We have to bring awareness to these skeletons of the past so that we don't, as a people, repeat them in the future. There's all kinds of stuff happening in the world right now I thought I'd never see in my lifetime. It's up to us to hold people accountable and stick up for our brothers and sisters. We need each other now more than ever. Is there anything you want to tell

[Interviewer/Host]

the people at home about prisoners being experimented on or.

[Kennigan]

I prefer victimized to that, because that's what it was. They took a group, a social group that they could take advantage of and went forward with, with that. And. And I. I'm not sure that it was illegal for them to do that because you had to volunteer. I mean, they weren't forcing anybody to do any of this. But the morality of it is something that's. That has to strike at the conscience of anybody that. That hears those stories about some of the people that went through that program that did. It did have a negative effect on.

[Craig Jackson]

That's it for this episode of Concrete Mama. But before we go, here's who makes it happen. Zach Bens is a producer and our editor, sound designer and graphic designer. Chris Gates and Nate Bowers are the audio engineers. Megan Sanchez is a producer and handles our social media content and audience engagement. Vic Chopra and Rachel Check are the showrunners and executive producers. I'm Craig Jackson, one of the newest voices of Justice Media coming at you from inside the prison walls in Walla Walla. The Washington State Penitentiary and Washington State Doc have made this project possible. For more information information, check out our show notes and you can write to us with feedback and questions about the podcast. We will read and answer some of them on future episodes. Concretemama is more than a podcast. It's a platform for voices that need to be heard. If this episode resonated with you, share it, support it, leave us a five star rating and keep listening. You can find unincarcerated productions on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and various other social media platforms. Thanks for listening.