The Long Game with Girls Who Code’s Reshma Saujani

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Long Game with Girls Who Code’s Reshma Saujani"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Confessions of a Female Founder with Meghan
• Host/Author: Lemonada Media
• Episode: The Long Game with Girls Who Code’s Reshma Saujani
• Release Date: April 15, 2025

Overview: In this compelling episode of Confessions of a Female Founder, host Meghan sits down with Reshma Saujani, the visionary founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First. Their in-depth conversation delves into Reshma's journey from overcoming personal and professional challenges to leading significant nonprofits aimed at closing the gender gap. The discussion provides invaluable insights into leadership, resilience, and the ongoing fight for gender equality in the entrepreneurial landscape.

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1. Introduction and Reunion

Timestamp: [02:11] – [04:57]

Meghan opens the episode by highlighting the unseen struggles female founders face, emphasizing the importance of redefining what it means to be a female entrepreneur without compromising personal well-being. Reshma Saujani reminisces about their past interactions, setting the stage for a heartfelt and honest dialogue.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "And so we do it. We push through. We keep smiling, we keep going out there." [02:11]

2. Early Life and Foundations of Resilience

Timestamp: [04:57] – [09:01]

Reshma shares her inspiring backstory, detailing her parents' refugee experience and the challenges of growing up in a predominantly white, working-class town outside Chicago. She recounts the cultural assimilation pressures her family faced and how these experiences shaped her empathy and desire to give back.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "I've always had this, like, deep, like, love for this country and from that spirit of empathy that we shelter and that we love and then we care for those who have been displaced." [05:42]

3. Overcoming Bullying and Embracing Activism

Timestamp: [06:09] – [10:01]

Reshma delves into her childhood experiences of bullying and cultural identity conflict. Instead of succumbing to anger, she channeled her pain into activism by founding a club called PRISM (Prejudice Reduction Interested Students Movement) during her freshman year of high school. This pivotal moment marked the beginning of her journey towards making a meaningful impact.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "I have a responsibility to actually teach people about difference, like literally." [07:56]

4. Academic Pursuits and Political Aspirations

Timestamp: [10:01] – [14:33]

Reshma discusses her academic journey, including her determination to attend Yale Law School despite initial setbacks. She candidly shares her failed congressional run, highlighting the emotional toll of public failure and the realization that resilience is key to moving forward.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "We think as women that when we try something, especially something we want so bad and it doesn't work out, that it will break us." [14:16]

5. Founding Girls Who Code and Moms First

Timestamp: [17:06] – [21:15]

Transitioning to her professional achievements, Reshma explains the inception of Girls Who Code and Moms First. She emphasizes the importance of securing early support from influential figures like Jack Dorsey and Melinda to propel her nonprofits to success. Meghan and Reshma exchange valuable advice on fundraising, underscoring the effectiveness of seeking mentorship over direct financial asks.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "Having an early adopter, especially one that people admire, helps a lot." [20:22]

6. Leadership Transition and Letting Go of Power

Timestamp: [21:15] – [24:14]

Reshma shares the challenging yet empowering experience of stepping down as CEO of Girls Who Code to focus on Moms First. She reflects on the fear of losing identity tied to leadership positions and the importance of empowering successors, particularly women of color, to continue the mission.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "Being able to let it go, give somebody else that light, knowing that it was going to actually diminish my power." [23:26]

7. Personal Struggles and Health Challenges

Timestamp: [24:14] – [27:54]

The conversation takes a personal turn as Reshma opens up about her struggles with miscarriages and the emotional burden of maintaining a public persona while dealing with private pain. She highlights the societal pressure on women to remain resilient and not show vulnerability, emphasizing the need for authentic self-care.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "We don't break and we're not allowed to break." [29:57]

8. Balancing Motherhood and Professional Life

Timestamp: [28:04] – [38:37]

Reshma and Meghan discuss the intricate balance between motherhood and leading a nonprofit. Reshma critiques the structural barriers that force women to choose between career and family, advocating for flexible workplaces that accommodate parenting responsibilities without penalizing professional growth.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "We have to ask ourselves, why do we have the most educated population of women that have the lowest amount of participation in the labor force?" [37:23]

9. Redefining Success and Legacy Building

Timestamp: [38:37] – [44:05]

Reshma contemplates her future endeavors, expressing a desire to continue fighting for gender equality while acknowledging the possibility that significant change might not occur within her lifetime. She underscores the importance of legacy and the enduring impact of persistent activism.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "The most important title I have is Mom." [27:54]

10. Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Timestamp: [44:05] – [44:52]

As the episode concludes, Reshma and Meghan reflect on the progress made and the ongoing challenges. Reshma reiterates her commitment to joy-driven activism and creating lasting change without sacrificing personal well-being.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani: "You gotta do it with joy. And it can't come at an expense to your health or to your happiness or to your children." [43:58]

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Key Takeaways:

• Resilience and Adaptability: Reshma’s journey underscores the importance of resilience in the face of personal and professional setbacks.
• Empowering Successors: Effective leadership involves empowering others and ensuring the sustainability of initiatives by passing the torch.
• Structural Barriers: Addressing systemic issues, such as inflexible workplaces and the gender pay gap, is crucial for enabling women to thrive both personally and professionally.
• Authentic Self-Care: Recognizing and addressing personal struggles openly can lead to healthier, more sustainable leadership.
• Legacy and Impact: Building a legacy through persistent activism and supporting future generations is paramount, even amidst ongoing challenges.

Conclusion: This episode provides a profound exploration of Reshma Saujani’s life, highlighting her unwavering commitment to empowering women through technology and advocating for systemic change. Meghan and Reshma's candid conversation offers listeners both inspiration and practical insights into navigating the complexities of leadership, motherhood, and personal growth as a female founder.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

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[Reshma Saujani]

Lemonade I'm sitting there the next day I've pissed off everybody, I'm broke and no one's calling me oh no, no one's calling me.

[Megan]

I'm Megan and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the slee sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

[Reshma Saujani]

No time to get down cause I'm moving up no time to get down cause I'm moving up no time to get down cause I'm moving up.

[Megan]

Behind the scenes, there are so many struggles that female founders don't post about. They don't even talk about the moments when you feel broken, when things don't go as planned, when simply showing up feels like a huge feat. And yet we do it. We push through. We keep smiling, we keep going out there. You get on the panel, you do the thing. And at a certain point, though, it does raise the question, how do we redefine what it means to be a female founder without just running ourselves into the ground?

[Reshma Saujani]

And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights. And so we gotta show em a different way we gotta do it a different way.

[Megan]

Today's episode is about fighting for what you believe in and all the highs and the lows that come with it. And that's precisely why I wanted to talk to Reshma Saujani. She founded not one, but two incredible nonprofits that help close the gender gap for women. First with Girls who Code and now with Moms First. She's lived the pressures of building a business both behind the scenes and in the spotlight. And her candid take on leading a movement. It's going to make you rethink how to fight for what you believe in. Let's get into it. Welcome.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thank you.

[Megan]

I'm so happy you're here. It's been a while.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's been a long time. I saw you. Do you remember different circumstances. Long time.

[Megan]

Yes. Life was diff. Well, I mean, we had met 2018.

[Reshma Saujani]

I guess you were very pregnant.

[Megan]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. It would have been 2018. Pregnant with Archie at Kensington Palace.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Megan]

How did you end up at that meeting with me?

[Reshma Saujani]

Because you're an amazing human.

[Megan]

Oh, my God.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's true. And we were bringing girls who code to England, and we were looking to expand, and you generously met with me.

[Megan]

Oh, that's kind to say generous. I was thrilled to learn more. At the time, I would say, even the idea of coding and stem. Do you remember that's when things were transitioning from STEM to steam?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yep, yep.

[Megan]

It was so new, and it was definitely new for me. But I remember you came in, we sat in the audience room, and I just said, tell me all about it. But. But it was such a great sit down because it was an eye opener for me of so many other ways in which women were showing up for young girls. And I'm curious to get into how that became your focal point. But can we just start well, before that, can we go way, way back? Take us back to the beginning.

[Reshma Saujani]

So, you know, for me, my. My parents came here as refugees. My mother was actually several months pregnant with my sister. When they came, they had no money, and the Catholic Church took them in, fed them, sheltered them, clothed them. And so I've always had this, like, deep, like, love for this country and from. For that spirit. Right. Of. Of empathy that we shelter and that we love and then we care for those who have been displaced. So I. That it was always in my blood that I wanted to give back to the country. I wanted to do public service and I wanted to, you know, fight for those who didn't have a voice, which is Beautiful.

[Megan]

And also completely confounding when you know more about your upbringing, how you were bullied, how you were mistreated, how you were beaten up. For a lot of people, that would devolve into, no, no, I'm not showing up in the spirit of love anymore. I've been too bruised and beaten. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you grew up in Chicago and what was it like?

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, no one's ever asked me that before. Because you're right. I could have turned to anger and hate, given what I was going through. And I went the opposite way. You know, my parents came here in the 70s, grew up in, like, a working class town, you know, outside of Chicago, Illinois. There were no brown people. And, you know, my mom was still wearing her sari and her bindi on her head, going to the Kmart, right? Still eating Indian food. And, you know, back then, it was all about assimilation. You know, my father went to Toastmasters to get rid of his accent. Like, he literally changed his name from Mukun to Mike. He still signs my birthday cards like, love, Mike. But back then, it's like, if you wanted to fit in, you had to just change. Like, you. I mean, and that's kind of how we felt, too, right? I remember being so mad, Megan, that, like, my mom named me Reshma. Like, why did you just name me Rita or Rachel? Because everyone be like, how do I say it right? And, you know, we'd have a lot of money, so we were wearing the Kmart shoes and the wrong jeans and, like, the wrong shirt. And remember, it was all like, you know, forensic sweatshirts and, like, feathers and, like, you know, the 90s, like, oh.

[Megan]

The sparkly BB shirt that said BB in sequins across the front. I saved up for that.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, totally. And we had none of the. We had, like, the knockoff version, you know what I mean? Of all of that. But so I really tried to be white. Like, I tried to be those other girls and deny my culture and all of it. And, you know, every day I would get made fun of and bullied. And one day, I don't know, there was nothing special about that day, Megan. I just. When challenged to go to the. To the back of the school, you know, for a fight, I was. I was like, okay. Instead of just getting on the bus.

[Megan]

Wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

And that day changed my life, right? Because I got beat up pretty bad. But I also realized I'm not white and I'm never gonna be, and I have a responsibility to actually teach people about Difference, like literally. I went to freshman year of high school and started a club called prism, like the Prejudice Reduction Interested Students Movement. Horrible name. I got better at that.

[Megan]

It's quite the acronym. It really, but it's definitely high impact for a 12 or 13 year old girl to come up with that. It says a lot.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I guess it does. So, yeah, I think I turned to hope. I turned to hope.

[Megan]

I mean, honestly, it just says so much about your character to look yourself in the mirror and really see who you are. But even from that moment, you're still at a crossroads where you could have chosen, you know what? I am going to be an entrepreneur and I'm going to build a business and I'm going to be so successful. But instead, your activist spirit is what came through. Always wanting to affect change.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. I realized early on what my gift was. So I started going to Model UN and debate and I realized, ooh, I can give speech. Like, I can communicate. And I actually feel at home on stage. And I'm thinking the way to make a difference is to run for office. I'm in love with Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi, John F. Kennedy. Like back then I thought politics, politics, and you can, you know, how to communicate. Like, that's where you go. And so I, you know, volunteer on my first campaign, the 92 Clinton campaign, fell in love with politics and Washington and Hillary Clinton and the whole thing. And I'm looking at all these people like a Hillary, like, you know, and they all got a degree from Harvard and they're all lawyers. And so maybe that's my path. Right? I'm going to Yale Law School. That's where I'm going. I applied three times. Don't get in. You know what I mean? Finally get in.

[Megan]

But not just finally get in. Didn't you make a plea to the dean? Didn't you just really go? What did you say?

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, so I had this mentor, Leon Higginbotham Jr. He was like the first federal black jurist on the third Circuit Court. And he becomes my mentor every Sunday. I am at him and Evelyn's house listening to like the heroes of the civil rights movement. And it is just, I love Leon. And Leon's like, oh, girl, you're getting in. Like when you go to Yale Law School, when you walk in, there's my photo, like, I got you. And he dies. And he doesn't write my recommendation letter.

[Megan]

Oh, I didn't. Okay.

[Reshma Saujani]

Before he dies.

[Megan]

Okay.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I'm devastated and I don't have a recommendation letter. And it's like, it's his funeral. Everybody is there. And at the funeral, I meet the assistant of the dean of Yale Law School and kind of like, she feel sorry for me. And she was like, I'll get an appointment for you. And she kind of squeezes me in Dean Crommon's schedule, and I go to New Haven and make my pitch. And Dean Cromwin's like, listen, I'll make you a deal. Like, you've gotten into all these other schools. Like, I got into Penn and Northwest. I mean, like, right. Like really good schools. And he's like, I'll make you a deal. Like, just go at any of those schools, and if you get into the top 10%, I'll let you come to Yale.

[Megan]

Oh, wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I go to Georgetown. I don't make one friend. I study every single day. I am just super focused, right? Like, getting straight A's so I can go to Yale. But it was such a lesson, Megan, in, like, I was just so narrowly focused that I had to have that Yale law degree so I could go do the things that I wanted to do. Not understanding that, I was just letting life and its experiences just pass me by. What happens then is that Bush v. Gore happens. And I'm thinking, I'm going into public interest, right? I'm going to go work at the naacp, right? Like, civil rights. That's what I want to do. Bush wins. No one's going to D.C. you know, and I'm like, oh, and I'm $300,000 in student loan debt. I guess I'm going to go work for the man in New York at a law firm, which I hate. And that's when I run for office, take this crazy chance, right, in running in a primary. I was 33 years old. My name was Rachel Sajani. There had never been a South Asian woman to ever run before. I run for United States Congress. I lose, like, spectacularly. I mean, it's like, not even close. But I had, like, convinced John Legend to do, like, two concerts for me, like Jack Dorsey. Like, I had, like, I had, like, hustled the whole world right into thinking that, like, I'm winning this upstart race, right? And it is not even close. Like, I'm crushed. And the biggest kind of aha for me was I'm sitting there the next day, I'm in my, like, 400 square foot lower east side apartment. I've pissed off everybody in the Democratic establishment because I didn't wait my turn. I ran against another Democrat. I'M broke because I spent a year running for office instead of working and no one's calling me. Oh, no, no one's calling me. But the biggest kind of, I think, moment that changes my life is I realized, like, oh my God, like, this was the thing that I thought that I was supposed to do. Run for office, be a politician, be a public servant. The very thing that I had been driving towards, Yale, all of that was about this destination. It doesn't happen for me, but when I wake up the next morning, I'm like, oh, like, I'm not broken. Yeah, this sucks. But like, I'm not broken. Huh. I think we think as women that when we try something, especially something we want so bad and it doesn't work out, that it will break us and we won't be able to like, wake up the next day. We won't be able to continue on, forget about, like the humiliation and the judgment and all that. I think there's a sense that like, failure will cripple you.

[Megan]

Right? That it will break you as opposed to break you open for the possibility of more.

[Reshma Saujani]

Exactly. And so now the thing doesn't happen and I'm like, huh? There's a lot of things that I should maybe fail at and try and learn. And that's the path.

[Megan]

Yeah. And when it breaks open, it leaves space and room for so much more. Love, growth, resilience to all. Pour in.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

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[Megan]

Why stim. What made you realize how big of a deal it was?

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, I always say, like, if I had applied to be the CEO of Girls who Code, I wouldn't have gotten the job. I didn't code. I'd never coded before. Yeah, right. Like, I majored in poly Science, Speech communications, and the only thing I'd ever built was a failed campaign.

[Megan]

And you don't really think of coding as the person who's on the stage giving the speeches. You think of it as the person who's behind the keyboard and.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And you know, those coding jobs, they paid a lot, like $120,000 a year. And when I. I saw that girls and girls of color, poor girls, were not going into these fields in my mind, like, they weren't going into the fields that would help them, like, march up into the middle class and change their entire trajectory for them and their families. And that's what, like, drove me to coding and technology.

[Megan]

Well, and the creation for access in such a different way. Right. For that next step that they may have otherwise not even had a window to peer in through to know that that was a room that was worth going into.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And you're working on this now also, like, the things that they're going to create, like bullying. Right. Like, what are they doing on these problems that they experience. Right. Whether it's bullying, whether it's health, whether it's sexual harassment. Right. Like, they're. If they know how to code, they can build tools that are going to help solve problems that are faced by.

[Megan]

Women and girls completely. And now, as we look at all the different modal and AI and everything else, to really get ahead of how they can be integral in the creation of those next phases of tech. So, but what was the big break with Girls who Code? When did people start paying attention and you went, oh, I'm actually onto something here.

[Reshma Saujani]

So, okay, I thought nonprofits are slow. They don't get anything done. Like, nothing happens. Like, it's just. It's not for me, Right? Like, I want to be where the action is. I want to be where the real change is. So I ran Girls who Code and now Mom's first, like, a tech company.

[Megan]

Oh, interesting.

[Reshma Saujani]

Big scale, big numbers, hard driving, big change. KPI's destination where we want to go with, like, essentially like a nonprofit lens. So it was always kind of like unicorns and rainbows. I'll be honest. Right. Like, sometimes you have an idea and the world just collides to make that happen. And so Girls who Code was a little like that right from the beginning. People like, oh, yeah, this needs to exist.

[Megan]

But we all also know that fundraising for nonprofits can be really hard. I mean, maybe not as hard with unicorns and rainbows there, but it can be hard.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan]

What do you think? One tip is for people who are starting specifically a nonprofit, how do you get funders?

[Reshma Saujani]

So here's the thing. I, very early on at Girls who Code got Jack Dorsey to support it. And back then, everybody was like, oh, Jack's doing it great. And I'll say with moms first, it was you. Like, very early on, you were like, oh, paid. Leave this movement. Moms. Yes. And I think the thing is, for people and entrepreneurs, it does help to get an early adopter, especially one that people admire. Right. And that people want to follow and see as, like a guidepost. And so, yeah, for. For. For Girls who Code, it was really Jack. And, you know, for moms first, it was. It was you and Melinda.

[Megan]

Oh, wow, That's. I didn't realize that that's. So I'm. I'm glad that I could be additive in any way. I think one of the pieces of advice I was given early on, maybe not even advice, but insight, was when you're looking at funding for a nonprofit or even in business building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector, yes, you want to get one hook because it makes other people feel confident coming in. But in those conversations, if you go to someone and you ask for money, they're likely Going to give you advice. And if you go to someone and you ask for advice, they're much more likely to give you money.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's a good tip. All right, I've taken that one to the bank.

[Megan]

Just go for advice. Because otherwise, people aren't immediately feeling pressurized. You're just going for advice, and then if it makes sense for them, they'll offer up what they think you might need as opposed to going in with an ask. So different small distinction, but it makes a big difference, I think.

[Reshma Saujani]

I really like that.

[Megan]

Yeah. You have this quote that I love that was, leaders cannot or should not stay in organizations forever.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Megan]

You can't stay innovative if you have the same person leading the movement forever. Such an interesting insight, because a lot of people, I think in that same pursuit of success as we're talking about, especially as female founders, stepping away could feel like failure, as opposed to the choice, the active choice you make to say, no, I'm not just doing this for myself. I'm doing this for this organization.

[Reshma Saujani]

So, you know, I knew it was time to step away from Girls who code. One, because I don't. I actually don't think anyone should run anything for more than eight years. And then two, this energy I was feeling around motherhood and moms first and this need to fight for childcare and paid leave, like, there was something I knew that I wanted to do. So I had this amazing CEO who's now our CEO, Dr. Tarika Barrett. And I'd always wanted her to run the organization. And so it's like, middle of COVID I know it's time. And one, I know if I tell anybody that I want to step down, including my husband, he's going to talk me out of it. So I don't tell anybody. I get on a train, I like, basically say, tariq, I need to meet with you. And I'm like, I'm ready, and I think you're ready. And she said, all right, let's go. So one, I think it was so important for me to pick a successor, especially a woman of color, and give her the opportunity of, like, the fruits of my labor. Right? Because building girls are code almost killed me, Megan. You know, it was always on a plane. I was always just hustling. But I had built something that I knew was sustainable because I had rebuilt it during the pandemic, I had money in the bank, right? So, like, oftentimes, if you're a new CEO taking over an organization, you're terrified. Like, fundraising is hard. So I knew I could Give her something that, like, had legs. But it was such an interesting lesson because the day we were transitioning, my assistant said to me, okay, I'm gonna get you a conference room, and you're gonna get so many emails, so many people are gonna call you that we just. We gotta black out three hours. So we, Tariq and I send the email. She's in one room. I'm in one room. Press send. Crickets.

[Megan]

Oh, no, crickets.

[Reshma Saujani]

Tarika calls me a couple hours later. She's like, oh, my God. Like, I just been so amazing, the amount of emails and the phone calls. She's like, how's it been for you? And I didn't want to tell her. Right. That no one had called me. But it was such an important lesson on, like, this is why people don't give up power. Because when you don't have power, you're not important anymore. Right. So it's so easy to hold onto it because your identity is so caught up in it. But that, to me, was part of the work. Right. From an ego perspective, being able to let it go, give somebody else that light, knowing that, like, it was going to actually diminish my power. Right. My resources, my access. But that was the point.

[Megan]

I mean, that is. That is a lot of. I'm not going to say work. I'm talking about self work. That is a lot of growth. That takes people a tremendous amount of time to settle into the confidence, to be able to do that. And to not feel rattled when the phone's not ringing. To not feel rattled when you've stepped out of the light, so to speak. But as you step out of the light, you're actually stepping into your own light in a different way and creating space for someone else to be in the light, which is probably the larger purpose of all of us being here.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's so beautiful. So true.

[Megan]

And I'll bring this up if you're comfortable talking about it. Cause I know you've spoken publicly about, as you were doing, Girls who Code, all the interpersonal things that are happening for you at that time and the miscarriages that you've experienced. I've spoken about the miscarriage that we experienced.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And I think in some parallel way, when you have to learn to detach from the thing that you have so much promise and hope for and to be able to be okay at a certain point, to let something go, something go that you plan to love for a long time. That's. Does that.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's really insight. Yeah, I was gonna say, I Feel like you're, like, reading my diaries. Like, that's really insight. It's really insightful because I don't think anyone's seen it that way, like, said it that way for me. But. But that's right, because, you know, here I was for so many years, like, trying to get pregnant, having miscarriages because I had autoimmune issues. And I got into this really, like, kind of scary habit where I would be at a doctor's office, and they'd be like, you have no heartbeat. And I should have just gone home and gone to sleep and curled up with my husband. But I would just take a breath and I would just show up in a living room, in a stage, and just perform. And oftentimes I was, like, performing in front of these children that I desperately wanted. And I just got really good at that, but it was eating me up inside. And it wasn't until my second where I was again on this path of serial miscarriages. And I remember just one day, it was like I was in California. I had to get on a plane and go to Utah to speak to, like, I don't know, like, a thousand girls and, like, the governor. And like, that morning, I get a call from the doctor, and they're like, okay, your HCG levels are not going up. You're going to miscarry. And I just got on a plane and I was sitting there in front of these girls, and heart was just breaking. And I remember saying, this is it. I'm not doing it again. And I went to my team and I said, guys. And I'd never told them I was going through this. I mean, they kind of knew because they would see these doctor's appointments on my schedule. But I never, like, just said, I need. And I said, I can't do this anymore. I need you to take over. I need you to run this organization. I need a month. I need a couple months just to just breathe.

[Megan]

That takes so much courage to say it a ted.

[Reshma Saujani]

It did, but it's right. It's because I had to detach because I felt like I was letting the girls down. I mean, how ironic is that, right? In my quest to become a mother, that just all I want. You have this beautiful line that I quote all the time, that the most important title I have is Mom. And I so desperately wanted that title.

[Megan]

Oh, you know, I do.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I just. It was the irony of it all, you know, was a lot.

[Megan]

Yes. But that in. In the journey, how many layers come up and then you can start to recognize those patterns in your business, in your life, in, you know, I was. What is that book? I actually think I have it here. My friend just sent me this passage yesterday. It's called the Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. It's a children's book that came out of the UK a couple years ago. But at any rate, beautiful illustrations. I have to get it for you. But the quote is, what is the bravest thing you've ever said? Asked the boy. Help, said the horse. And at a certain point, you go, the courage that it takes for a female founder, the courage that it takes for a woman. When you're on this path, you're on this grind, you've set expectations, the courage that it takes to say, I need help or I need to pause is tremendous. And there is no way to continue to show up and role model for these young women. All the things that you aspire for them to have, that you wanted to have when you were a young girl, if you are not doing it with complete authenticity because you are so close to being burned out.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, I don't know how to learn this lesson. I'm going to be honest. Like, a couple weeks ago, you know, I had a breast exam, and they thought they saw something, and then I had to get a biopsy, and I had never gotten a biopsy before, so I didn't know what to expect. But they're like, you know what? It's just a pinch. You'll be fine. And I had a panel that night, and I know now from DNCs and C sections and, like, IUDs that it's not a pinch. So, like, I keep my schedule right. I keep it all. I tell my husband's, like, let me come with you. I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm good. I got it. I'm fine.

[Advertiser]

No.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it hurt like hell, right? My whole. Right. And I go and I do the panel, and I'm sitting there and I'm like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know better than this. What is wrong with you? And I think it's so hard to unlearn what this is really about. Because I think, one, it's personal, but two, like, this sense of, like, I'm strong, I'm resilient, I can take it, I got it, right? Because all these things have served me. It's why I've been able to do the things that I do. And then I think we live in the society that encourages women to do that. And the sense that, like, we don't break and we're not allowed to break.

[Megan]

Not allowed to break. You have to keep smiling. All of these constructs that I think we've all been prey to and have projected. And at a certain point, I mean, I often find too, even in the advocacy work or showing up and wanting to. That you go, am I saying the thing, but I'm not doing the thing.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And when can we start taking our own advice? What do you think that pivot point will be? When will the inflection point happen where women, especially the ones who are leading in these movements and leading in this messaging, to actually integrate that advice and not just know it or intellectualize it, to integrate it for you to say, yeah, you know, honey, I am gonna clear the rest of my schedule after this appointment, and please, can you drive me and come with me?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I'm seeing, you know, a lot of the women. I just went to Cecile Richards funeral. So you're seeing a lot of these women who've given themselves to the movement, who've had real health scares and challenges, and you know that they're not connected. Right. Meaning, like, we expect the people that are trying to fight for women and girls to always be on, to always be working. We also know at the same time that there's no finish line.

[Megan]

Yeah. And that the body holds the score.

[Reshma Saujani]

Exactly. Exactly. And especially for women of color. Right. Who are always like, oh, but you should go fight, and you should go fight and you should go save us, that we can't continue to operate that way. And so I think we have to. Just because one of the things I'm seeing, I don't have as many young girls or young women reaching out to me on LinkedIn, being like, Ms. Sejani, I also wanna start a nonprofit. How do I do that? I think that they're looking at us and seeing how exhausted we are, how tired we are, how much you have to sacrifice and saying, yeah, no, thank you.

[Megan]

Oh, wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And so we gotta show them a different way. We gotta do it a different way.

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[Megan]

So you mentioned before the break that a lot of these young female entrepreneurs that have that desire to build something are looking at their mentors and saying no thank you based on the burnout they're seeing. And so I guess the question is, how do we turn that around? How do we show that perfect doesn't exist? And maybe that's part of the messaging. But also what does it look like now when you can find balance and.

[Reshma Saujani]

It'S not one or the other? You know, one of the things I'm seeing is in the motherhood movement is people think you have to pick being a girl boss or a trad wife, that it's black or white, right? That either you're in the workforce and you can't focus on your kids and you don't get to see them or you're just at home. And I think the point is, is that we're just presenting these, like polar opposite choices when really what we all want is something in the middle. I want to be able to pick my kids up at school every so often, give them a little hug and a kiss, have some flexibility, not be on the plane all the time. But I want to be able to crush it in the things that I care about.

[Megan]

Yes. Now you have the title of mom, just like me. Favorite title. Love it. I love being a mom. Oh my gosh, I love being a mom so much. It's my favorite thing. It is the thing where you're like, oh my gosh, I just need a break. I just need a minute. I just need a minute. And the second you step in the other room, you go, oh, but where are they? Let me, Let me just pop. Let me just. Let me scroll through pictures of the endlessly on my phone. And then you just. My husband's like, my love, can you just give yourself a minute? Why don't you go work out? Why don't you go take a bath? I'm like, I know, but I just want to cuddle for. It's the. It's the parenting paradigm where it is so full on, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I think what's really key about what you said and the pandemic may have been the thing that shifted this. When working from home and parenting from home, where they are completely converged, can feel incredibly overwhelming. How do you feel about that?

[Reshma Saujani]

I feel like the way that we've built workplaces, we've set women up to fail, period. You know? And the thing I always think about, Megan, is like, look, we have the most educated workforce of women. Like 75% of the high school valedictorians are girls, right? Most of those getting their PhDs are girls. And we have to ask ourselves, why do we have the most educated population of women that have the lowest amount of participation in the labor force? And the reason is, is because when we become moms, because of the cost of childcare, because of the lack of availability of childcare, because we just don't make it possible for you to do both. Oftentimes women are having to downshift or make choices. And the way we've tried to solve this problem is say, well, the problem is women, right? Like, you gotta get more confidence. You gotta power pose, you know, your way before a meeting. You gotta get a mentor, right? It's all about, you're wrong, you're broken. When really it's just structural. And what was so amazing about this in the pandemic is I think it gave us a window of what's possible. So, like, if you do have flexibility, if you can take care of your kid when they're sick and still get it on a meeting, right? If you still can not be set up to fail because the school day is 8:30 and the work day is 9 to 5, right? If we can actually give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time, you will actually see a shift.

[Megan]

And also with that comes the woman who is juggling it all and doing it all from home, being confident enough to tell the Truth about what's going on. Because you can't give grace to someone in the same way if you just have no sense of it. You don't know if they. My kids, for example, right now, one has rsv, the other has influenza A. I hear a little pitter patter of feet upstairs. They come from school, you know, cough syrup all night and rubbing the back and this. And you go. And we still find a way to show up for both, but being able to be comfortable enough, and maybe that's to your earlier point, how we teach this generation who might not feel as inspired to do some of the change making that we know has been so fundamental, say no, just be honest in the journey of it and say, yeah, today I'm going to show up for you, but I'm showing up for you in my sweatshirt today because I've been up all night with my babies. But I'm still going to be able to show up for both because both matter. And both are what Keep my cup full.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We breastfed in closets. We didn't put our right. We didn't put our kids picture on there. We like, we're like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. You know, we completely, like I always say, like, you know, girls who code, mostly women work for me. They get pregnant all the time and we kill it.

[Megan]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

Like, I have built like two of the most fastest growing nonprofits and we live our values. And so this sense of that, well, you know, it's, you're not gonna be productive or you're like, you know, watching Netflix while you're work, like, it's just not true. And so just have to. But there's so much resistant to change.

[Megan]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I do think that part of that is about having women ask for what they need. And our male allies. You know, one of the things that you've seen really shift in this remote work conversation is a lot of men are saying, okay, great, you want me to come back to work. Dads are saying, you need to support me in my childcare. You need to change your paid leave policies. Right. You need to allow me to be a parent and just thrive. But I, I think that is just absolutely right. Is like, how do we ask and demand what we need? I mean, you see it even in promotions, Men will not, if they leave the workforce, they will go back and they will not compromise on their salary. Whereas women like, all right, you want to pay me 20% less? Okay, fine, thank you. Right.

[Megan]

I know it's true. It's true. And that's the shift that has to come. And I think, look, as you continue to grow out, I don't know what your next chapter looks like for you, especially when you say eight years and then maybe time for a change. Now you've already forecasted that in some way because we know you have proof points of how that works.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan]

What do you feel like your next chapter will be?

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, listen, I love exposing cons. And I think one of the things with all of these things that are in common is one. What do you mean girls can't code? Yes, they can. And they can build incredible things. And what do you mean we can't redesign workplaces for women? Yes, we can. We need to pass childcare and paid leave. And you know, the work I'm doing my podcast right now, my so called midlife was like, I was in that inflection point between girls who code and. And moms first. There was no third baby, right? Like I was seeing wrinkles on my face that I hadn't seen before. My body was changing because of perimenopause. And I was just like feeling like my best years are behind me. And I started working with my monk Razanath, and that's when I started reading the Bhagavad Gita. Because I realized, like, all the things that were holding me back and the things that I were holding onto and it just opened up such this incredible moment of one rethinking midlife for women. Because I think the view about midlife is so different for women and men and we need to change it because we are living longer than we ever expected. Ever expected. And I don't know if you knew this, but, like, you know, the largest gender pay gap is for women above 50. Like, I have so many friends now who are approaching 50 and who are like, I can't get that promotion. I can't become a partner at that venture fund. Like, I can't start that business. Like, the way we perceive women, their potential and their opportunity, you know, I call it the midlife penalty for women really changes. And so to me, I think I will continue to do this work, right? I will continue to do this work about women. I have made the realization, though, Megan, we may not win in our lifetimes.

[Megan]

Meaning what?

[Reshma Saujani]

Meaning that I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born. That we may not see a female president in my lifetime. That your daughters, my nieces, may still be fighting the same fights that we're fighting. And for me, that Was a really hard reality to face in midlife because we went through all the things we sacrificed to our health, our family, and we have to say, God, is it worth it? Like, what is the point? What is the point if we keep dismantling progress? And I think I've realized that probably me, you were put on this earth just like those suffragettes, to just keep hope alive, keep fighting, keep pushing, because yeah, that's the point. You, like, you lose, you lose, you lose and then you win.

[Megan]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

Right? You lose, you lose, you lose and then you win.

[Megan]

And sometimes just when you think you're about to win, oh man, did that hurt? Cause that feels like quite a loss. But you just keep going. And I think my understanding, especially in having this time to be able to hear your story and talk with you and see the commonality in some of these other equally successful women that I'm speaking with and talk about. What's behind every successful woman? What's behind every successful. What's behind every successful woman is self awareness. There comes a point where each of these women on their journeys has such a tremendous sense of self awareness and the desire to dig deeper that is unflappable.

[Reshma Saujani]

I think that's right. And I think you realize, like, I don't care what other people think about me. Like, I'm not doing this. I just to me, I want to die knowing that I lived my fullest potential and that I gave back to, like, I can go back to my parents story, like about the people that sheltered them, that took them in, that fed them. Like, I will continue to fight for our children to make sure that this world is good, that they learn and see goodness. And I think that we have a role to play in that. But I think the lesson is, is that you gotta do it with joy.

[Megan]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it can't come at an expense. Right. To your health or to your happiness or to your children.

[Megan]

Yes. And everything has some expense. Right. But when you're looking, what's the roi? What is your return on the investment of everything you're pouring into that. And at the end of the day, what you're doing is creating legacy that will, whether you see those changes in your lifetime or our kids lifetime, it still steps in the right direction of what legacy is all about. And that I think is one of the most fascinating, probably most powerful things about the journey of creation. As a female founder, you're creating something with lasting impact.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, thank you so much for all your. Seriously, Megan, there's so much gratitude and love towards you. I just hope. I hope you know that.

[Megan]

Thank you. And thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it. How far we've come and yet here we are.

[Reshma Saujani]

Here we are.

[Megan]

Wherever we go, here we are.

[Reshma Saujani]

I really appreciate it.

[Megan]

All right, take good care.

[Reshma Saujani]

Bye. Bye.

[Megan]

Next week we are talking to an iconic founder in the beauty industry. She is a hair colorist. She's a stylist, too. But my goodness, can this girl do some color? And she has turned her passion into products that people crave.

[Reshma Saujani]

When I said the words, the world does not need another shampoo and conditioner, literally, I could have heard an amen from the crowd, like people were over it.

[Megan]

Can you guess who it is? I'll see you then.

[Advertiser]

Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Catherine Barnes and Oha Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Littles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vincevans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and production and Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more. Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.

[Megan]

Great.

[Advertiser]

We hope you enjoyed Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more incredible listeners like you discover the series. Thank you.