← Confessions of an Implementer
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- [00:00]
A
My definition of leadership is great leaders get ordinary people to do extraordinary things. I really don't care who you are or where you come from. We all have that built in with our DNA. We just have to unleash it and find it.
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B
Welcome to Confessions of a Vistage Chair. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We have real behind the scenes conversations with Vistage chairs who share honest stories and practical insights on leadership growth, peer advisory groups, and what actually happens in Vistage meetings. Let's pull back the curtain. I've talked to Vistage chairs, I've talked to many folks, but you were actually my first Vistage chair. So this is, this is a big one.
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A
Yeah, I remember when I knew him.
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B
When did you. So I just told this story last week and I don't know if you're going to remember it or not. You were the first, not just Vista Chair, but you were the first mentor of mine. You were the first business coach. And this was the first thing I did when I separated from active duty service was I moved to Maryland and then I joined your Vistage group. And I made a pact with myself when I got out of the service. I said, I've been wearing boots for the last 15 years and I'm done with boots, at least for like the next six months. It was like January or February was our first meeting. It was down in Arundel Mills somewhere.
- [01:21]
A
Yep.
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B
And I walked in in sandals and there was snow on the ground. I. Do you remember that at all?
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A
I. That those kind of moments stick out? Yes, I do.
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B
This is good. We've. We've come a long way. All right, so we're going to get into some like, interesting things today. Some things, some like exploratory areas that I don't even know about you, like your background, how you got started, things like that, and then really just kind of share some of the your experiences, wisdoms, lessons learned over the year. Because there's like, your name is prominent. I got very lucky with my first Vistage chair because we both knew Bill Valway. Bill used to tint my car when I was 16 years old in street racing. And Bill introduced me to you. And it just so happened that like, my entry point into Vistage was a master chair. And so I got very, very lucky in all of this. So let's take it back. Like, how did you, how did you get started? Looks like you were like in sales and you got into EY and you were doing some other things. Like what does this journey look like for you?
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A
Well, I am a Big believer that once you have clarity, the universe conspires to help you. So ever since I was a little kid, I've been fascinated with leaders, leadership, history, reading everything I could. So my whole life, my orientation, anything I ever served on, I was always captains of my teams. Anytime I got a job, I got into a leadership position. I just seemed to be naturally wired for that and passionate about it. So I was at this point in my career where I was doing very well being managing director for a consulting company. But I felt like I was in service to someone else's mission. So, you know, I had to hold professional services route, you know, go to business school, come out, go to work for Ernst Young in Manhattan, do. Then go work for Gallup, an organized large organization, then get recruited to come run a consulting division as managing director. And I actually worked up into that. I got hired just to be a consultant. And actually my mentor, Gary Mulher at the time was president. Bill Shore was chairman of that organization. So Gary out there in Seattle. So I'm always fond of Seattle. Why? Because Gary lives out there and actually you moved out there for family purposes way back when. And I thought that was a great decision. So I was kind of thinking at this point in my life, I was into my first real mortgage, decent sized house. I had a child, another child on the way. I could feel that trap happening, that trap happening that happens to a lot of people in business, that I'm going to get trapped by a particular path, a particular industry and by a particular income level. And I felt this need, I don't know, this metaphysical need to make a break, to do something different. And I'm so lucky to all the 10 plus years I had getting trained up to do this. But I came across Vistage. I had, unbeknownst to me, created this organization that already existed. Well, a small version of it when I pulled together some of the top nonprofit leaders in Washington D.C. for a peer based learning experience from that. And gosh, I wish I remembered. I ended up meeting a Vistage chair, David Belden. And David Belden came and spoke to my group on Fierce Conversations. And I remember watching David give his speech and I got to know him a little better. And like there's this whole organization that does peer groups. It's been donated since 1957. There's training, there's support, there's a methodology. Instead of trying to figure that all on my own. So I was intrigued. I was like, how can I do this myself? Because it was really hard figuring all that on your own. And then from David, I got recruited by Harvey Goldberg. And Harvey was running an emerging entrepreneur group at the time. And he and I met several times and I really liked Harvey and I was really intrigued about joining his group. But at the same time I was deciding I wanted to go out on my own. And so I remember meeting with Harvey tonight. I got good news and bad news. The good news is I love Vistage. The bad news is I don't want to join a group. I want to become a chair. And Harvey and David helped shepherd me into that, that interview process, which at the time was pretty extensive for Vistage. My goodness gracious. All these video interviews and different scenarios you're going to be put in, it was pretty heavy stuff. Was like nothing I had experienced since business school, right. And then the world just opened up. I was relatively young. I remember I went to Vistage chair training. I was 37 at the time. Time I think the average age was 57 of my cohort. So I was about 20 years. There's one other person in the program with me who is my age, Lauren, our mentee. But it was me and was like, wow, I'm in this new world and who am I? You know, I've got a lot of professional service experience. I did have some P and L responsibility, but I kind of just made it under the wire to get into this Fitches thing and be, be qualified to do it. So I got in there and my life changed. The first day of the first week of Vistager training, I was completely validated that this is what I wanted to do, this was who I was. And I'd found my hedgehog. I found my passion, I found my talent. And I found an economic situation was very favorable to me. So it just all seemed to conspire to happen to help me all at once. And I can't believe Looking back now 23 years, it seems like a blink of an eye. The number of members I've had, the relationships with, people like you watching folks have this incredible journey in their life. You know, I've seen nation entrepreneurs 10x their business and have tremendous success. I've seen people hand their business off to family members. I've seen folks, you know, grow their business beyond the wildest expectation. I've seen exit transaction where they've sold, where they've sold it to the employees. I've seen all this incredible stuff because as I tell everybody, I'm lucky enough to have a front row seat to the top 1 to 2% of the population who Actually moves the needle in society economically. And so. And I get to be, you know, I tell people this story about five years ago, before this happened, I was up in Stratford, Ontario, at the Shakespeare Festival. And as my wife at the time, we went to see Othello. And in the play Othello, there's a character, Iago, and if you don't know Shakespeare, he's whispering in the king's ear, and he makes the king mad. So the king ends up killing his. His. His wife and then commits suicide, Right? So he makes the king a worse king. And I said to my wife, when we were coming back that night from the play, go back to our hotel. I said, I've got it. She said, what? I want to be the positive Iago. I want to be the person who whispers in the king's ear and makes them better. Right? Because Mark Perrott, my buddy, used to say, is that we get the opportunity to help the few that affect the many. So if you can do that role well, you have a huge impact on people. So I have no doubt that through the years that my work with CEOs and leaders have literally affected certainly thousands, if not tens of thousands of employees and people and families and contributed greatly to the local economy and community. I don't take credit for that. I'm a very small percentage. I'm a very small percentage of those outcomes from what people do. But in some small way, I get to be a pebble in that ocean. I get to help unleash the potential and talents of very special people who care deeply about the world and their employees. Unlike the stereotype of the small business owner, sometimes they care too much, Right? And they get up every day and try to make the world a better place. And so for me, what is my lever for change in society? You want to make the world a better place? Try to pull the right levers. My leverage is to affect people in my community who employ folks and give them an economic livelihood. And if I do a good job, those businesses grow, they have success. My members, just like most VISTAS members, care deeply about their employees and their culture and their communities. And so the hypothesis I have for everybody, if you want to see a thriving community in America or anywhere in the world, you will find a thriving entrepreneurial class. And that's what we, as Vistage chairs, do. We create the conditions and the environment where entrepreneurship and business leadership can thrive.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Very long answer to your question.
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B
No, it's all good. And it's one, a great answer. And two, just to Validate that. I mean, you changed my life, Ed. And when I think about. You probably know this about my past, but my first company went bankrupt. And when that company went bankrupt, I. I was like, I have no idea if I ever find product market fit again, like, I need something else to help me. And so the first thing that I did, I reached out to Bill and I was like, hey, I need some sort of like, peer group. People that have been there, done that, and, and, and you put me in. You put me in a group where everybody was ahead of me. Like, not only was I stupid and show up, showed up in sandals, but everybody was like, what I felt was out of my league. And what that did was like, it pushed me to learn and learn fast because we were on a rocket ship. And, and what I needed was like, tough love and accountability and all of those things. Without you, Hunt, a killer would have never made it to an exit. Without you, I never would have learned about eos, which is another life changer. And I wouldn't have had a coach asking the tough questions, which, like, you know, to me, a. A good quality or a top quality of a good coach or a great coach is being able to ask the tough questions that nobody else is going ask.
- [11:38]
A
And you also had the good fortune of moving from me to Tom Leonard, who's an incredible chair in his own right, 100%.
- [11:45]
B
And so let's talk, like, we don't have to go down that path too much, but like, I never would have met Tom, you know, if. If it weren't for you. Like, you. You were the start of. Of kind of like my next, like, my professional entrepreneurial journey. 2.0, 1.0, disaster, failure, like, painful lessons learned. 2.0, like, understanding, learning, curiosity, all of these things that, that you helped with. You talked a little bit about, about leadership and how, like, you've always. You've always taken leadership roles and now you're in a role in which, like, you're leading leaders. So you are a leader of leaders. Like, what is, what is leadership to you? What was that thing that, that you were constantly seeking since a very early age?
- [12:30]
A
Well, as I tell everybody, my definition of leadership is great leaders get ordinary people that do extraordinary things. And I believe in the potential of every individual to find greatness within themselves. And I really don't care who you are, where you come from, we all have that built in with our DNA. We just have to unleash it and find it. So what's really special is when you can find someone who can take a group of people, sometimes disparate group of people from different backgrounds and show them that they're capable of much more than they think they are. And when that happens, it's a special thing. So leadership is really about unlocking the talents and abilities of average everyday people to do things of significance and to by doing so, improving their life and their community. And that's all it is to me. It's all it's ever been.
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B
You know, there's, there's times in companies where it's just not working and, and you're pouring your soul into another professional and they're just like not picking it up, they're not getting it. You know, in eos they say get it, want it, have the capacity. And maybe there's just something that's getting tripped up on, on that side. What are some attributes that someone else needs in order to reach their maximum potential or become who they should become?
- [14:00]
A
Well, before I answer the question, I'm going to say something. Everybody deserves to take a swing at the pitch, right? So the wonderful thing about our country is that you can bet on yourself and you can try this thing called entrepreneurship and small business leadership, right? And it doesn't work for everybody, but at least you gave it a shot. I read some statistic that at some point close to 40% of the population will be responsible at some point in our life for their own income, right? That's the way things are moving. You think this could come. So some people want to give it a shot. So the beautiful thing is people can give it a shot. And I hate how we define failure. My favorite word lately is fit, right? Is, is it a fit? Are you a fit for small business leadership, by the way? You could be a perfect fit for running an established business, but a terrible fit for a startup. You could be a wonderful fit for working with a private equity group or you could be horrible. You could be a great fit for a family business, but terrible in a non family business. It's really about finding the right fit, right? So, but if you're looking for someone universal, generalizable traits, I'd say the first is, is they're full of ego for everything that matters, but devoid of ego for those things that aren't, which are typically status, privilege, wealth. You know, economic success is an outcome of doing your job really well when you're a leader. That's why I say you find people. I don't care. You go across this world and you find industries and you say, how did somebody make a business out of that, how did somebody get wealthy out of making chalk for chalkboards in schools? How did somebody get wealthy making shoelaces? How did somebody get what there's time after time, all these examples of people who took these businesses and they just had this sheer will and determination and talent to make it work. So they're really, I'd say they have a lot of ego for being good, for building a good company and competing well and doing things well and providing high quality service. Right. But they don't get caught up with the personal ego thing. You know, Ryan Holiday's book Ego is the Enemy. I love it and I completely believe it. A lot of leaders, what stops them from getting to the next level is they bump into the threshold of their ego. Right. So not having any misplaced ego, I'd say the second thing is they really need to be curious. So these days especially, information is coming at you a mile a minute. I mean, there's no real excuse for not being informed. So you really need to work at this thing. You know, it's less about doing and more about thinking when you get to a certain level. So are you distilling the right information? Are you curious? Are you learning what's happening in your industry and contiguous industries in your marketplace and business as a whole? Does that stuff interest you? Because it should. So there's innate sense of curiosity. They just want to get better, they want to learn more. I'd say the third thing is they genuinely care about the success of other people. Now I've had debates with colleagues, it's interesting. I'm not a big win lose person, so when I played sports, of course I wanted to win. But in the marketplace I think that you should win. Your customer should win, your vendor should win, your bank should win. Everybody should win. Life should be a women proposition. So they don't try to gain at others expense. That doesn't mean they don't compete hard. And they do do battle with their competition and they want to win in the competitive environment, but they do it the right way, not the wrong way, if that makes sense. They do it by elevating and raising the standard. Really great companies raise standards in their industry. They raise standards for quality, they raise standards for decision making, they raise standards for financial acumen, they raise standards for culture. Right. So the really great leaders, they care deeply about a win win environment and doing the right thing and raising standards for the people around them. And they care about people. You know, this whole idea of employees now sometimes, as I said before, they can care Too much. But they don't look at people as FTEs or positions when someone signs up to come work for them. They really care about their well being and welfare and they want to create an environment that person actually wants to show up to work every day. You know, I've had periods in my life where I could wait till Friday and Sunday night. Honestly bummed me out a little bit because of what I had to embark on the next week. I haven't had that feeling for 25 years. Right. They want people to want to work there, to really feel like they're being treated well. I'd say they're really good at making decisions. So one of the most important things you can do as a leader is learn how to make good decisions. And you have to differentiate the types of decisions you're going to make. So sometimes you have to make snap judgments in the moment. Right. You don't have a choice. And the typical leader makes loads of decisions every day. So you got to be good at being able to make those in the moment snap judgments. Especially like a muscle. You got to go to the gym and work on that. Got to process those things and get better at doing that. But they also know how to make really big decisions. Well, one of my favorite quotes, and I forget who it was, they said take as long as you need to make a good decision, but not a second longer. So they don't rush into decisions. They're able to control their emotional impulse to want to just make a decision. They think through the important decisions and they do that. They have a process by which they do that. They seek out feedback from other people who they think are best positioned to help them with that decision. They involve their team is going to be affected, but they make good strategic big bets. But they also make good daily decisions. And great leaders are decisive whenever they can be, but thoughtful when it's required. So another trait I'd say is they care about their community. Right. They don't live in a vacuum. So I've seen members, very fortunate members by any definition to take great pride in the nonprofit that they support or the kids they bring into their apprenticeship program. They kind of like have a pay it forward mindset that because they've been successful, they want to share their success with others. So there's a generosity of spirit about them. You know, they don't go live off in an island in a gated community and not interact with the society. I've done several retreats at Hershey and I love the fact that Milton Hershey Lived right in the middle of the business park, that he had people using his grounds for family picnics and events, that he, he was part of the community, he didn't isolate himself from the community. And he even ended up giving up a lot of his house so they could have a golf club and events. And he lived in a two bedroom apartment right on the grounds of Hershey. It's like, what a leader. He felt so confident in his relationship with his people. They put himself smack dab in the middle of them. He was surrounded by them and he didn't worry about it. Far too many leaders now have to live at a distance from their people behind gated communities where they never interact with anybody who isn't like them. They make themselves separate from. And I think the best leaders, they don't. They build connection, they don't build separation. So they're good at connecting people and staying connected with people. It's like the leader, the ivory tower syndrome. The leader who spends their time in their office, their big office behind their desk with everything at their disposal, whatever they want, but they never get out from behind their desk. Right now you got to get out in the field, you got to visit your customers, you got to see your people, you got to walk around the office. I tell my members, if they're always in their chair behind their desk, they're not doing their job. So they're out and about trying to see things and connect with people. I'll give you one more. I've written whole books on this so I could go on and on. And I guess one trait that really sticks out about me about them is they don't take things so serious that success becomes a burden. So what you notice with people is everybody talks about, you know, clearly you've been through an experience. And by the way, you were just on your hero's journey to get to this next thing. Every successful entrepreneur has stories of failure. They learn from the failure movement. That's life. Learning from adversity and failure, getting smarter and wiser and coming back and giving it another shot. That's life. That's everybody's life. I don't care who you are. So I don't know. They just, they're different in all the good ways.
- [23:19]
B
Brilliant. There was a lot in there. I'm going to try and figure out which ones to go deeper on. The first one you talked about this curiosity. Couldn't agree with you more. I think this whole state of constant curiosity, constantly learning, knowing that there's more out there to discover, is in today's environment, there is a lot of information that is flowing by us and things are moving at such a rapid pace. AI AI is going to take over the world. It's going to take everybody's job. Every industry is going to be shut down. Like in today's environment, how does one remain curious and also focused on the right things without like, there's a lot of fear driven stuff that's being put out right now. How do you advise leaders on this?
- [24:13]
A
I could talk to you for hours on that. I think it's very pernicious. It's a terrible thing that's happening in our society. You know, throughout the history of civilization, you know, leaders have had to make a choice, right? You know, you can coerce people to do what you want. And one of the easiest ways to coerce and influence people is to scare them. And if you scare people, you can typically manipulate them. And one of the ways you do that is by setting them against one another. And I didn't say this about leadership traits, but great leaders don't spread fear. They engender courage in themselves and those people around them. So you have to be able to. And it's great because curiosity in and of itself is a great term, but having information is only part of it. You have to be able to distill information. And great leaders also are great at recognizing patterns. They can separate the wheat from the chaff, the important information from the unimportant information. They can see how the dots connect, right? So it's because you could overwhelm yourself. I mean, you can literally all day sit on social media and get all types of information, but it'd be useless. It's going in your head and it's going right out. But can you wade through all of that and be fed continually by really important, contextual, germane information that's relevant to you and your business and can, when you get that, can you take that information in a measured way, know when to use it and apply it? And that's hard. So curiosity in itself is a great trait, but it's what you do with the knowledge that you're gaining and how you distill it and how you apply that really separates people and fear. Every day we get up, we get to make a choice, right? You look at yourself in the mirror, you can, you can build fear where you can build courage, right? It's a choice. It's a choice for parents, it's a choice for educators, it's a choice for public officials. In the short term, if you scare people, you might get what you want, but it can be really huge cost. But in the long term, if you help people confront fear, separating valid, real fear from not valid fear from contrived fear, right? Then you change their life. I mean, Steven Pinker's written about this. We live in the safest time in the history of mankind. I tell my members all the time, you're in the wealthiest nation ever known to mankind. You live in one of the three wealthiest states in that nation. You're probably in one of the three wealthiest counties in that state, right? You're not worried about food on your table, drinking water. Your kids are highly educated. They have loads of opportunity for extracurricular activities. You probably have more than one vehicle. You probably travel somewhere for vacation, right? Everybody here as a kid has been to Disney's. Disney, right? Like nobody has it better than you. There's no victims in this room. There's not, right? So with that, you know, with that privilege comes some responsibility, okay? So don't fall victim to your fears. Don't get so easily manipulated. Figure out what's really important. You know, you're not. You're probably living in a safer neighborhood than you did as a child. And your parents certainly did. Crime rates are down significantly. You probably have more opportunity, more information at your disposal. Filter that information, use it wisely, and oh, by the way, block out distractions. You know, Boaz Rauschberger, I love that guy. At a moment in my life when I needed him, he stepped up. I will always remember that. But I remember him saying to me a long time ago, he said, don't get caught up in the news cycle. You know, news once became for profit was created to not inform, but stir up emotion, right? And it's going to stir up emotion at the end of your day. If it's important, someone will tell you it's important. And then judiciously pick where you get your information, right? And the sources you're getting information from. It's amazing to me, all these people who claim to be correspondents or journalists and they don't follow the journalistic code, they don't have any ethics. They're just trying to get you to read what they say and stir you, whip you up into a frenzy so you'll get other people whipped up into a frenzy. And that explains where we are today, right? And by the way, if whatever you're taking in is making you feel bad about yourself, right? Giving you a negative self image, why are you doing that to yourself, right? You know, Try to get sources that make you feel good about yourself, that emboldened you to take positive action, not make you feel less than. Because you live in a society that a culture where we have a greater than anybody ever had. So to fall trapped to the less than thinking is really a silly journey for any individual to take.
- [29:11]
B
Certainly a daily, weekly, monthly, constant battle. I mean, even, even I recently, and I'm in and out of it, but even I, two weeks ago, deleted Twitter. It's called X now, but it was just constant, like just garbage, negativity, stirring up emotions. When you think about this, like, as much as, as me as a leader struggles with this and is on and off and like, you know, reflection, recognition and then action is kind of the cycle. And right now I'm doing good. How do you advise leaders in times like this and chaos and turmoil? Like I loved what you just said right there of like this constant reminder of like, where are we truly at today? Like, remove all the noise. Like, where are we at in society? Where are we at geographically and in time? All of these different things. How do you, how do you advise leaders to advise their people to help kind of go through a, a similar process?
- [30:14]
A
Well, there's all sorts of things. The one thing I love about my work and with Vistage is Vistage provides the canvas and the boundaries of the canvas within which we have to work. We have group meetings, we have one to ones or triads, we have outside speakers. Right. There are certain things we do in the meeting. We do a check in. Right. We have a host presentation. There's some structure to the model. But then on that canvas within those boundaries, you get to paint how you want. So I try to bring in all different types of things you ask my members. You probably saw it at least one or two meetings you were in. I brought in a poem, right. Or a video, or referred to a great work of fiction. Right. Or a story. Right? So try to bring all different things into people because people learn differently. And once there's an emotional resonance with a piece of knowledge, it tends to stick. I'm a big user of metaphors, so when we were going through different crises, I try to find something to, for people to hold on to. So when we were in Covid and coming out of COVID and the turbulence of all that, I told my members, you need to be the lighthouse amidst the storm. You need to be the one place where your people can look in the dark choppy seas and see that light there to help them, guide them through this period in Time. So what you want to help them is understand what their role is. Leadership is easy when it's easy, it's necessary. When it's hard. Right. You know, when you really have to step up, when there are no easy answers, when the external environment is challenging, when the government's making decisions, that's making your job harder. When you have competitors making aggressive moves to try to unseat you or take market share from you. I mean, you walk up and you deal with a lot on a daily basis. And you just have to be able to lean into it and deal with it with a steely resolve and not get too emotionally swung in either direction of the pendulum. Do you remember a show called Hill Street Blues?
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B
No.
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A
So there was a cop show called Hill Street Blues. And there was a Captain Frank Furillo. And he was the head of this precinct in this fictional city. Where are you from? You think it was New York, Chicago. But they shot him with a 360 camera when he was in his office sometimes. And the show typically began and end with him. And all throughout the show that hour he had to deal with so much humanly possible. So there typically was the start of the day where they're starting the day that the officers are going out to the street, they're getting briefed, and then he's coming with his first meeting and then everything goes haywire. And he's just reacting to all these really significant things and having to pivot and deal with people and personalities. And then at the end of the show, he typically would be with his girlfriend, who I think then became his wife at the end of the day with his family, his relationship. And he was finding comfort and solace in that relationship. And they even were at odds with each other. She was an attorney and he was a police officer. But I thought it was like a great way to look at things you don't know. You start with one objective and you plan for the day. And then all these things can happen. And if you're in a police work, it can be life or death stuff. And a lot can be demanded of, challenged of you even might be at odds sometimes the people you care about while trying to navigate this. But at the end of the day, you get to go home to family and people you love and feel that love, which gives you the resolve to go about it another day. And that's what it is. I mean, a lot of life is just. It's lived moment to moment, day to day. And are you up for the challenge? And is what you're experiencing, making you a better or worse version of yourself. And do you have. And I hope I'm not drowning on too much people out there. I hope he'll edit this, but this is great. You know, I tell my folks there's two things every individual and every leader especially needs to have. They need to have things that guide them and things that ground them. You have to have your North Star. You have to be shooting for something that's bringing forth your more noble self, right? Our job in life is to become the best version of ourself. And what's pulling you in that direction, right? And then you gotta have those things that crowd you, right? Is it family, is it friends, whatever it is. But what's that solid foundation you've built beneath your feet, right? So that you can reach for the stars? And what's compelling to have you do that? So if you have things that guide you and things that ground you, no matter what comes your way, he's usually able to navigate it and give up on the idea of being perfect. There is no perfect person. But aspire to be a better version every day and have your own hero's journey and let the events that happen to you, especially the adverse, challenging events, make you a better person, make you a better version of yourself, and come back and share that with the people around you. Right? And that's what's insidious about social media in this division right now. There's a lot of people who are, I don't know, they're trying to tap into the worst baser nature of ourselves and pit us against one another and create this false narrative of good and evil and darkness and light and, you know, this tribalism that goes back millennial, right, which leads to wars and all kinds of things, as opposed to those special leaders who step forth and unify us, who galvanize us around something powerful, that show us that we can achieve more than we think is possible, that get us to love thy neighbor, care about the community, care about the planet, aspire to do the right thing by our customers and our vendors, right? There's always that tension. And which way do you lean? That's the question. Whether you're a leader or an individual, what energy is pulling you and what are you doing about it.
- [38:13]
B
When. When you've got a leader? You talked about this, this guide and ground. Like, what do you think some of the important components are from a guide standpoint? Because I know a ton of entrepreneurs that have very big, hairy, audacious goals. They want a billion dollar company, they want a G650, they want all of these things. Does that translate into the guide, or do you think the guide goes deeper than that? And, and how can one go deeper than listing where they're trying to be in 10 years?
- [38:43]
A
Well, I don't know if. And I try not to make value judgments about other people's motivations. Right. You know, but I don't know if necessarily money should be a guiding factor in a person's life. To me, money is an outcome for doing something well, something meaningful, something purposeful. And, you know, I watched these two tracks of leaders. You know, there's, you know, if you're always obsessed with money, it's unhealthy. And I see these people who have these great lives build these great companies that have more money than they'll ever need, but they rarely ever talk about money. They talk about their team, they talk about the culture, they talk about solving complex problems. They talk about making the world a better place. They talk about the opportunities they're creating for their employees and their family. They don't talk about money as the objective. So when I think about things that guide me and people have figured out for themselves, look, I happen to be a religious, spiritual person, so I was given a certain set of values and principles that I was born with that guide me. You don't have to have that. Some people live a life without that and they're just fine, they're good people. But what is the philosophy that's guiding you? Is it, you know, whether you want to see someone like Jesus as the son of God or an incredibly motivational philosopher who said, love thy neighbor as thyself, you know, who told so many the product story of the prodigal son, you know, forgive seven times 70, right? Like that's giving you these life lessons, these things that reach for something better, do better, try better to be a good person. So those things that I think guide you are things like that. Now for some people, a scientist, it could be curing cancer. You know, they get up every day, you hear the personal stories of people, and they lost a loved one to cancer and they dedicated their life to solving cancer for someone else. It could be a police chief. They maybe grew up in a crime ridden area and they were fearful their whole life and they wanted to bring security and stability to their neighborhood and other people so they never have to deal with it. There's this underlying motivation which is good, that's driving them to excel, to achieve. So that's what I think guiding is your North Star is why are you here and what are you hoping to accomplish and what's driving that? And it's different for different people. But there's got to be some fundamental methodology or framework or rubric or motivating force that's pushing that forward. You know, at least that's what I believe. You know, I think money's only ever an outcome of doing other things really well.
- [41:55]
B
Do you think there's a, like, is there. I mean, to a certain extent this is like some, some heavy foundational work that has to happen up front. And one of, one of the books I've read very early in life was my Last lecture by Randy Palsch. And he talked about last lecture.
- [42:14]
A
Oh, that's a powerful, powerful video, powerful book. For those of you out there, if you don't want to sit through 72 minutes, I advise you do go through the 12 minute Oprah clip that's on YouTube. But Randy Pash was an amazing man. That's a very touching thing. But there's something else. There's a book called Chasing Daylight by Eugene o', Kelly, who is the former CEO of kpmg. And he was. Had terminal cancer. He was given a year to live and he talks about his last year on this planet and what he chose to prioritize and how he chose to spend that time. Very powerful book. There's quite a, quite a number of books like that. But Randy touched me as well. I'm not surprised he touched you. More people should watch that. Yeah.
- [43:00]
B
It's the only reason I made officer. I read that book. 2005, 2006. It was like when all that stuff was, was coming around and there was this thing in there and it was like brick walls. He talked about all this failure and he was like, brick walls are there to keep people, people that don't want it bad enough out. And so I, I got rejected the first time for the Semen Tamro program. Second time. And like it takes an entire year to. Because they only look at applications once a year. And so it took three years for me to get in. But it was, that book was the reason because I was like, well, they're going to let me in eventually. I'll just keep doing this. Such a powerful book. One of the things that he talks about is he's like, I took a year off. Well, and for folks that don't know who Randy is, Randy, MIT professor, Disney imagineer. I think he worked at NASA.
- [43:50]
A
He was a professor at Carnegie Mellon and then moved to University of Virginia. So the Last lecture. Theoretically, professors would be asked to give a lecture if it was their last lecture, what lecture would they give to the students and faculty? And in this case, Randy, it actually was his last lecture. And it was powerful.
- [44:11]
B
Super powerful.
- [44:12]
A
Life changing the world will test how bad you want something. You ever notice things that come too easy aren't fulfilling? No. And oftentimes they can be ephemeral. Right? Like, so when you really have to work hard to get something that you truly want, when you're willing to sacrifice and deal with adversity to get on top of that mountain, the view is way different than if it was just given to you. So because you cared so much and had to work so hard to get there, I'm sure you valued it, the achievement, once it happened, more so than someone who just would have breezed through the first time.
- [44:57]
B
And for me, it was also like, for me, what, what a lot of this, like, overcoming adversity has been are like stepping stones. Because every time that I've accomplished something, I'm like, oh, it just. Just as long as you keep doing it, like, eventually something will break through. And like, now I'm at a place in entrepreneurship where I'll just keep going. Like, I'm just having fun. Like, for me, it's now about the journey, and I'm having a lot of fun. You talked a little bit earlier about this idea of, like, caring for other people in the team. You know, I had this thing, and I'm not saying employees is a dirty word. I just, I don't like that word. And I'm not saying it's a bad word or anything like that. I just, I would rather use teammates. And, and it's something that we carried with us everywhere because we're a team, we're working together, we're trying to bring out the best in each other. But long winded to that would be. It was like those moments of like, overcoming where it's like anything, anything's accomplishable. Hard work and time, like those two ingredients and like, it might take more time than you want, but keep putting in the work and it'll come true.
- [46:03]
A
I am amazed. You know, I tell my clients, I tell my kids, I said, you know, we, as far as I know, we use very small amount of our brain capacity. But I can look around here in the history of civilization and humankind, and just if you look at this country that was founded back in 1776 and is President's Day today, which we're very lucky, those two men existed in our. In Our history. But you walk through any major city, you go anywhere, you see what the universities that have been created to learning, the bridges that have been built, the highways. You see planes flying in the air. You walk past these hospitals. I mean, humans have figured out how to put a man on the moon. Humans have figured out how to transplant, you know, organs in the bodies and even organs from animals in the body, like what human beings are capable of doing. They've built. I mean, they built these cathedrals that have last lasted over a thousand years without the modern tools that we've had. I mean, human beings have cured all sorts of diseases. What the human, what the individual and the collective human is capable of, once they tap into their true strengths and abilities and do it in harmony with other people, it's just breathtaking. So your only limitations, man, are between your ears now. You know, I was never going to be. You know, I tried to be an athlete and perform at a high level, but I just wasn't made to be quarterback of the Dallas Cowboys, which would have been my dream job. Right. I just. I just didn't. So I had some physical limitations, but there were other parts of life where I could truly excel. And the test was finding where those were. And then to follow that path. It's that Frost thing. You're going to hit that, that fork in the road, and do you follow the system, the structure that societies lay down in front of you and all systems want conformity, Right? Or do you carve your own path and follow your own bliss, as Joseph Campbell talks about, and willing to do the necessary work and make the necessary sacrifice to take that journey. It's why the Hobbit still resonates with so many people. It's a person leaving the comfort of home and familiarity and going on tremendous adventures to find within themselves the heroic nature, to deal with even the most difficult of obstacles and not lose themselves in the process, but come back a better version of themselves. The hero's journey, the myth, right? So that's the journey you're on. That's the journey I'm on. Everybody's on. We're all trying to be the hero of our own lives. Right. You know, and every. Every year's chapter,
- [49:11]
B
what would you say? Because especially as we talk through entrepreneurship and we talked a little bit about fear earlier, but people that are looking at the fork and road and thinking that they can go do this, one of the big things out here right now is AIs taken over the world. It's taken everybody's jobs. I Have opinions on this. You have been one of the chairs that has been consistent in getting as much AI knowledge into your groups as possible and providing that perspective. Like, what do you, where do you think this is all going? And how are you advising your members right now to think through AI implementation, the future to their business?
- [49:58]
A
Well, a lot of people a lot smarter than me can tell you they can't determine what the future of this thing will be going. So I'd be kind of, I don't know, foolish to say that I know absolutely where this is going. But I've always wanted to embrace technology and innovation, not fear it. You know, what I know is that every tool, every major technological development in history, going all the way back to the wheel, but going through history for the last couple hundred years, every major change that was driven societal change through technology always scared people. Always scared people. And there's something about, maybe it's that part of our brain which is trying to protect us, but any significant transformative change elicits some fear and resistance from a large number of people. And so, yes, every time we've gone through this, the world hasn't come to an end. Remember? Do you remember the stupidity that the world was going to come to an end because of 22 to the millennium? I remember that nonsense. And people are paying all this money. So it was just stupid, stupid stuff, right? So I don't. I figure it's better for me to be familiar with the innovation and embrace the technology and figure out how to use it in productive ways. I am not going to resist it, as some people, there's some people who believe it has no place in my work. I respect their opinion, I hope they respect mine. Right. I'm trying to give my members an edge, an advantage, a tool that help them accelerate their progress and success. Right? So AI has the capacity to do that. But when innovations come, there's always, you know, I'll never forget when they talked about nafta and I was watching Bill Clinton, he was speaking to a Labor conference in Blackpool, England, and he said they knew when they signed that deal that there would be casualties, but they felt that breaking down the trade barriers and moving towards a more globalized economy was the right move for the world as a whole. And it did. It's elevated. NAFTA is just one example of several treaties and decisions that elevated people throughout the world. Free trade, you know, capital will find its most advantageous place to move. Right. But there were consequences. And he said, we got to understand whenever these big things happen, we have to have a safety net understanding that there are some people who are going to suffer as a result of this transformation. So back then there was huge money pumped into community colleges for job retraining programs. Right. And a lot of money went for people to help. Okay, you've now lost this type of job in your community. What next could you be doing? So I think with this innovation, certainly we now have people who are functionally unemployable according to the Department of Labor, meaning that their job is displaced by AI and isn't coming back. So there are people who are going to be casualties to this. The question is, what do we do with that? How quickly can they pivot? What skills can we put in place for them to do things? Can they use the technology themselves? Could this bring way more entrepreneurs than ever has happened before in the past? Are there going to be new jobs related to AI which AI can't do, which human beings can, can, can do? Well, like you had vehicles, you had to. People drive vehicles. Right. When cars came along, people, cars and just now cars aren't going to need drivers. Maybe. Okay, well how do you, how do you manage that? So change is coming. It's happening more quickly. It tends to be more transformative. And so you can choose to get on board with change and be as knowledgeable as you can and navigate the best way you can and try to use it in positive, productive ways. Or you can resist the change, bemoan the change, criticize the change, and watch that freaking bus drive right by you and one day you'll wake up and it'll be too far of a gap for you to navigate. Right. So embrace change and lean into it. Once you get into resistance mode in your life. What does they say in Star Trek? Resistance is futile.
- [54:18]
B
Yeah. Yep. And that there were conversations in, in our Vistage group a long time ago where, where, you know, the future was electric cars and we had someone, someone that was in the, the fuel space and they were like, we're already looking at that and we're looking at like, how do we take this and move this? And it's like those that, that understand and stay ahead of the curve are the ones that are going to win.
- [54:42]
A
Well, leaders have to operate in three horizons. Today, tomorrow in the future. Right. And they should spend only a small amount of their time in today. They should have people dealing with today. But tomorrow and the future, that's what they need to be thinking about. They need to see where things are going, where they're moving. It's Like a chess match. Like what do they move five or six moves down the game, right. That you need to make anticipating the moves and that requires thought, right. Not just action. So you have to be living not just in today. You have to figure out what's coming around tomorrow, the next one to three years and is your organization position for that. And then five years out and more like some people, they said jobs could think out 25 years. Where is the society moving? Where are things moving? And how can you position your organization and your company and your family and your children in the most advantageous way to navigate that Are there.
- [55:46]
B
Exercise might be a lame term for this, but are there things that you recommend or tactics, strategies? Maybe it is exercises but things that can help people. I think you're the one that actually talked about this of like every, every human has a horizon or like how far they can see over the horizon.
- [56:04]
A
Times fan theory.
- [56:05]
B
Yeah, there it is. Like are there exercises or other things that you recommend that business leaders can run to like get them out of the day to day or get them out of tomorrow and starting to see further downstream?
- [56:17]
A
Well, any expert on time span theory, Tom Foster, if you're out there and late, Elliot shocks like I'm probably going to butcher this, right? But if you look at how far people can think, they can only stretch so far. And once again like the way people learn their time span is no indication of intelligence, right? So people, I hate when people do it. It's just how someone's wired. It's how they learn, it's how they think. That's okay. We're all different. If everybody was the same, it'd be boring. So what they say is you can only stretch so far. So if you're a day to day, week to week thinker, that's how your brain is wired. Maybe you can push yourself out to thinking a month out but it's going to be really hard for you to make a jump further than that. And then if you're a month to month, a quarter to quarter person, maybe you can think out a year but it's really going to require some effort and thought and your purpose. But I'd rather see. Oh, look at this. Here we go. I love.
- [57:19]
B
That's a cute pup.
- [57:21]
A
He's my Maggie. Maggie Mae. But I'd rather we think of like society and people as part of a bigger tapestry. So what I do know is the people who can think 20 years out are very unique. I mean it's like a pyramid. The further you go up the Sheer, aren't you? People who can do it. But they're going to need people. Those people who think 20 years out are going to need people who can think five to 10 years out to help them execute. And Those people at five to 10 years out are going to need people who can think one to three years out to support them and then vice versa. And what we want to do is once we know how someone thinks, once we know how they learn, if we can slot them in the right place, right. Wonderful things happen. Because you know those visionaries who are big forward thinkers, they sometimes don't even. They're a mess day to day, week to week, right. So what I'd say is if you want to stretch yourself first, figure out how you think and it's usually pretty obvious how far out you think, right. And then once you've got that what, how could you stretch it a little bit? And then what support system have you built behind you? I'll give you a perfect example. I am terrible day to day, day to week. Like I'm just not. I have an incredible virtual assistant and other support people around me who make sure that day to day get taken care of. And God bless my wife, she deals with that, she handles most of the details in our life. But I'm really good at thinking a little bit further out and looking at patterns of architecting the future a little bit differently. So if you can marry those things together with a group of people and figure out where they're best suited to help you, it's an amazing thing. But to think you can take stretch somebody too far beyond. Like you can't take a, someone who's a visual learner and make them a digital and auditory learner. You can expose them to as much of that stuff as you want, but they're still going to be visual learner. Maybe you move the needle a little bit, right. Instead, accept people where they are and let's get back to that fit word and make sure that they're a good fit for what they're doing and the role they're playing. And then if you're, if you happen to be a leader who's running a company and you're not a Horizon 3 thinker, you struggle with horizon too. Well, you know what? You could have a VP of Business development or strategy or a COO who is. And if you can keep your ego in check, you can leverage that to your benefit. I think that answered your question. I don't know.
- [59:53]
B
Sure does. That was a fascinating topic. I mean these are the little things that I picked on. I. When was my like 2019 maybe right before the pandemic is when I moved out to Seattle. And like these are still the things that I remember from our conversations, the speakers and your wisdom. Last question. One thing that we've discovered is there's a lot of folks that are inside of the community that listen to this and you are one of the most respected chairs inside of the entire ecosystem. And for like a young chair that's, that's either just getting started or maybe they've got their first group finally and they're, they're just starting to, to figure this whole thing out. Like, what's your biggest kind of piece of advice or lesson that you learned after being a chair for over two decades?
- [60:46]
A
You'll never have it all figured out. Just keep working at it. You know, I try to have my members guess you probably, you know, I try not to be too formulaic. What is he going to do this month? It's your canvas. Be you. I very early on in my career I had a member lovingly talk to me after meeting, put his hand around my shoulder and say, ed, get away from the Vistage formula. We sign up for Ed. We want to see Ed flourish. That's who we want to follow. So it was really eye opening to me because I was so concerned about doing Vistage the perfect way as opposed to using the Vistage canvas and framework to bring my best self forward in a role using those tools. So strive to be the best version of yourself. It's your canvas. Paint it as best you can. Don't put pressure on yourself to be perfect. You're going to flop. Sometimes I did, I tried things that fell flat. But just keep trying, just keep experimenting and realizing if you approach to work in the spirit of service to your members rather to your own ego, it's going to go, it's going to go better. So be more gentle with yourself and critical. Now, all that being said, true creativity comes from the prepared. So prepare for your one to ones, prepare for your group meetings, understand what the speaker is going to be talking about. I create a thematic document you probably still remembered all those years ago whenever a speaker's coming in. So I want to set that baseline of like this is what we're talking about today. So always come into these meetings well prepared, know what's going on, you know, take notes of your one to ones and then review those notes, right? So when you go into a meeting, it's not a brand new conversation, it's Just a follow on conversation from the previous conversation. But do your best to be the best version of yourself within the Vistage framework. Take some risk, don't be too hard on yourself and think of it as a longitudinal journey, meeting by meeting, step by step. Prepare the best you can and then let it happen. The beauty of Vistage is that you create a space where wonderful things can happen, A safe space, and they typically do. Right. Your job is to create the conditions for that to happen. And you know, this isn't a competition, man. It's. It's an opportunity to do really important, meaningful work for people who can change your community, your world for the better. Right. So it's a responsibility, a privilege and an obligation to the best job you can. But don't be self too self critical. Next month's another meeting. The next one to one is another one to one, the next speaker. If you have a speaker that, that flops, the next speaker will be better. Just keep going forward, meeting by meeting, step by step, month by month. Learn your craft, apply your craft course correct as necessary and bring your unique recipe to the formula and all turn out well.
- [64:06]
B
Hey, how long did it and I, I'm not going to ask how long did it take until, until you got it or thought you got it because it sounds like you still carry the curiosity with you. How long did it take till you were like I've got real momentum now. Like I've been grinding at this, heads down, putting groups together and like just short of like I've made it, whatever that means in the sense to other people. But like at what point were you like this is it, I'm in my stride, I'm comfortable, I have the right amount of groups. Was that years?
- [64:39]
A
Yeah, I'd say that. But you know, it's, it's all about commitment, isn't it? The, the people I think who struggle with Vistage or Vistage as an add on to their existing practice or work. Right. And because building your first Vistage group is certainly an odyssey for a lot of people and so it's a really hard thing to do part time. So I think you have to decide, okay, I'm committed to this path and if I'm committed to this path, I'm going to at least build one full group and you know, maybe have a second or a key group, but I'm going to perform at a high level doing this and do what's required to do that. And then what happens with Vistage is you build this momentum. So I have six groups and I have a chair group that I now run for Vistage. So I have this momentum, right? I have these multiple wheels that are turning and the momentum is really a good thing because let's face it, most people in our work, most coaches don't have it. They don't have this recurring revenue model. It's like some of my clients, they have to go hunting every month, every quarter. And every relationship has its natural end, right? Vistage, the average Vistage member sticks around for seven, eight years. If you have multiple groups, you're diversified, your risk is diversified. So when you fully commit to the Vistas model, which is I'd say having two to three high functioning groups, it's generating you a decent income. You're getting to do good work with enough people that you probably get to apply and practice your craft enough where you start to get comfortable. And it's not like I'm completely comfortable. There's always some discomfort in the work. I don't ever want to be too comfortable because comfort is the enemy of progress. But you start to get, maybe comfort's not the word. You get to more confident that you're actually doing it and you're having some success doing it. And once you get that and you less have the pressure of not failing or falling short, then it starts to feel more like a vocation and a career and less about some thing you're trying to accomplish and always falling short of. Just put, put folks. Do me a favor, just. I've talked to many chairs. Put your head down. It's going to take you six months to build, at least to build your first group. And you can't do it if you're distracted and focused on everything. If you lean towards your consulting work because you make more money in the short term, it's going to hinder your ability to build your VISTAS group. Once you have your Vistas group up and running right, and you're doing good work, your members will help refer to your keep your group reasonably full. You'll create that annuity income in your life, that platform for you and then you can do all these other things you want to do. If you don't want to go all in on Vistage, but you can't half ass or part time this it, it doesn't work.
- [67:51]
B
Love it. And two things that I, that I deeply loved, enjoyed, admired about your group. Number one is I felt like I had ownership in the group because you, you would not just bring someone into the group unless there was an interview process and everybody gave a thumbs up and I thought that that was really incredible. And then the triad, like, I learned a lot from you also. I learned a lot from Wayne and those types of like shared experience and kind of like the accountability buddy were incredible. So anyhow, Ed, you have taken, I think I was like, hey, you want to go for an hour? Blah, blah. And now we've gone for an hour, seven minutes and we got started late. So one, I just want to thank you for coming on, sharing your story, sharing your wisdom. I've got a whole page of notes and quotes from this last thing. If I'm, I'm assuming that this is going to hit the streets and, and really make its rounds in the Baltimore kind of Delmarva area. If someone wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way for them to reach out to you?
- [68:55]
A
Oh, if, if it's a colleague chairs watching this, they know it's Edward robinson@vistage chair.com and for anybody that's, that's probably the easiest way to do that. You know, I'm, I'm, I, I blog. I'm not hard to find. I'm on LinkedIn. I, I've got you like 800, 900 blogs at this point. I've written a couple books, so if you want to find me, it's usually pretty easy to find me within Vistage. Reach out. I promise you I'll do my best to respond back. There were so many people. You said something before which I want to comment on. Thank you for saying what you're saying about me and the community and that's nice to hear. But all I'm doing is what people did before me. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants who are so generous with their time and their resources and their counsel and so supportive. I was a 37 year old, you know, shmo, trying to come in and figure this out. And the number of people who volunteered their time and their resources to me to make me successful, who are willing to listen to me and guide me, I'll be forever grateful the rest of my life. There's names. I mean, some of those folks were just unbelievable. And there's people like I didn't get to know really well personally, like Pat Murray, that were transformative in my life. And then there's people like Ozzie, who at Gantang, which I got to know personally, who was just an amazing friend, an advocate. There was Oli Carlson, who was just so incredibly supportive of me at the beginning. And the list can go on and on and on of folks who did that for me. So I'm just doing what was done for me. And for any of you out there, if you're having any success in life, it's important to pay it forward, right? Always pay it forward. If someone's done it, done for you, then do for others. So I'm here, I'm willing to help. I hope you're there, you're willing to help. I have no doubt you have information, wisdom and knowledge that I could benefit from. And if you think I could be helpful for you, I'm happy to help. We're in this journey of life together and it goes a lot easier if we're holding hands with one another along the way.
- [71:11]
B
I got nothing to add to that. We're going to end it on that. Because I could go down a whole nother line of questions. I agree with you. I, I would also say, I would also say the ones that I have found in life that are successful are the ones that reach out, are the ones that are curious. And when, when you talk about the folks that came before you and the folks that mentored you, went, you took that advice, you ran with it and for the next people that are looking for, you know, they're up and coming their shot, you know, taking that chance, reaching out to you and, and getting some of that feedback and coaching, huge. So.
- [71:49]
A
And do me a favor, colleagues, when you're going through these trainings and sessions, don't sit in the back of the room and snipe about the speaker or your colleagues. Like I figure you have it all figured out. Be in the front of the room, take notes, ask questions, still stay curious. Right. You know, we none of us have this all figured out and you know, everybody has their own right and wrong way of doing it, but you can learn something from everybody you meet and stay open minded to that Nobody has this figured out. I'm not even close.
- [72:24]
B
Awesome, Ed, thank you so much for taking the time. Come on. Appreciate it. Always lovely seeing you. It doesn't happen as often as I would like anymore, but, but thank you so much for taking the time.
- [72:35]
A
It's my pleasure. And by the way, I, I've loved having sometimes intensive and sometimes partial from a distant view of, of your experience and your journey. I think you're where you need to be. I think you're in the process of becoming. We all are. And each venture has made you better, smarter, more capable. I love where you're at now. I love what you're doing. It feels like you're confident in your own voice. And it's nice to see this get traction and take off for you. And thank you for providing this gift to our community. All right. Because like I said, the best things in life are win, win.
- [73:16]
B
I agree. Thank. Thank you for for helping make it happen. Thanks so much, Ed. I appreciate it.
- [73:21]
A
Take care, everybody. Have a great 2026 SA.