Culture By Design: Hiring For Values Not Just Skills with CJ Dube

Summary

Confessions of an Implementer: “Culture By Design — Hiring For Values Not Just Skills”

Guest: C.J. Dube
Host: Ryan Hogan
Date: October 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, host Ryan Hogan sits down with EOS Implementer C.J. Dube to explore the art and science of building company culture through values-driven hiring. Drawing from her extensive career in leadership, recruiting, entrepreneurship, and over 15 years as an EOS Implementer, C.J. shares hard-won lessons about hiring, accountability, and culture development. The conversation delves into how intentional design of values and structure can create healthier, more productive organizations, with practical advice for leaders at every stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. C.J.’s Journey to EOS and Foundation in Recruiting

• Background:

  • Over 16 years as an EOS Implementer.
  • 830+ all-day EOS sessions, 130+ clients.
  • Early start in restaurant management, technical staffing, and HR consulting.
  • Started and ran both an HR consulting business (grew to $8M in 3 years) and a massage center.

• Lessons from Entrepreneurship:

  • Running a massage center (her “hobby business”) taught her about managing culturally diverse teams and the importance of adaptable marketing and financial savvy.
    • “The best marketing I had was painting my window.” [11:25]
  • Learned the hard way about cash flow and payroll: “There were some tough times, but I gritted it out and the end, it was great. Great learning.” [12:30]

• Recruiting Philosophy:

  • Importance of right person, right seat—transcends skill. Focus on values and accountability.
  • “Structure first,” then match people to roles and values, considering runway for growth and development.

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2. Hiring for Values, Not Just Skills

• Establishing Values:

  • Start by clearly identifying and living your organization’s core values.
  • Use behavioral interview questions to test value alignment.
    • “Be clear on the seat that you want... If you need someone to be up and running like now, then you need to hire for that, and be prepared to pay for that too.” [18:18] — C.J.

• Balancing Skills and Coaching:

  • Technical skills can be taught, but passion, willingness, and coachability are crucial.
  • Use EOS concepts: does a person Get it, Want it, have the Capacity (GWC)?
    • “GWC, over time can change... how long are you willing to get someone up to speed?” [15:09]

• Timing in the Hiring Process:

  • “Hire slow, fire fast”—take time and due diligence in hiring to ensure fit, rather than plugging holes under pressure.
    • “The problem is, if you just put a butt in a seat... six months later, you're looking again.” [18:18]

• Avoiding the “Purple Unicorn” Trap:

  • Don’t overload roles with impossible or conflicting expectations.
  • “Most people don’t learn to like HR. They either like it or they don’t. You’re right.” [23:25]

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3. Building Accountability Charts & Organizational Structure

• Designing for Growth:

  • Define roles and structure based on the current and future needs of the business.
  • Revisit and reshape accountability charts as the company evolves.

• Adding New Functions:

  • When to expand beyond core areas (operations, sales/marketing, finance) depends on business size, complexity, and maturity.
    • “Sometimes more importantly... the stronger your middle management, the stronger the leadership team, the more the company’s gonna scale and grow and be healthy.” [30:18]

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4. Intentional Culture: Moving Beyond “Happy Accidents”

• Cultural Evolution:

  • Early-stage businesses often run as “happy accidents” — family, friends, and informality.
  • Growth requires intentional structure and clarity about roles and expectations.

• Types of Cultures:

  • Intentional & Healthy: The ideal—clear structure, strong values, ongoing coaching and accountability.
  • Command and Control: Can still be found, but less effective/generationally out of step with today’s workforce expectations.
    • “Nowadays, generationally, newer generations... do not want to work for control and command.” [36:10]

• Healing Chaos:

  • Companies evolve through periods of chaos; the move toward an intentionally healthy culture requires conscious effort, often with an 18-month runway to see major change.
    • “How do we get where we can be an intentionally healthy business? That takes a lot of us working together as a leadership team... and then make sure that we're hiring and firing and mentoring and motivating to that.” [00:00 & 34:13]

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5. Developing Managers and Middle Leadership

• The Linchpin Role:

  • The success of an organization’s scale and health rises or falls with middle management.
    • “You really are as only as good as your middle management.” [30:18]

• Intentional Development:

  • Invest in training and supporting managers, as they translate vision into day-to-day practice.

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6. Difficult Conversations and Compassionate Accountability

• Letting People Go:

  • Fire fast instead of letting problems fester; do it with transparency and care.
  • Provide real-time feedback within 24 hours—positive or negative.
    • “We owe it to people to be honest with them.” [46:41] — C.J.

• Role of the Implementer:

  • Acts as a coach, confidant, and sometimes the necessary voice of tough love.
    • “I will look someone in the face, tell them I love them, but also tell them they're full of shit.” [49:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On intentional culture design:
  “How do we get where we can be an intentionally healthy business?... What are the values we want? What’s the culture we want? And then make sure that we’re hiring and firing and mentoring and motivating to that.”
  — C.J. Dube [00:00 | repeated at 34:13]

• On why hiring for values matters:
  “If you just put a butt in a seat... six months later you’re looking again. So you just cost yourself money and time.”
  — C.J. [18:18]

• On learning from mistakes:
  “The best marketing I had was painting my window.”
  — C.J. [11:25]

• On the importance of wanting, not just knowing:
  “For me, the wanted is the most important...to get someone to learn new skills and new things, you have to want it and you have to be coachable.”
  — C.J. [25:03]

• On the implementer's role:
  “I’m there to be their teacher, their facilitator, their coach. I’m not there to tell them how to run their business or make their decisions for them.”
  — C.J. [42:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• C.J.’s EOS Origin Story & Early Career Anecdotes:
  [02:19] - [07:40]

• Hiring Philosophy & “Right Person, Right Seat”:
  [07:40] - [17:44]

• On Structure, GWC & People Development:
  [15:09] - [18:18]

• The Problem With Rushed Hires (“Butt in a seat”):
  [18:18] - [19:32]

• Panel Interviews, Deep Dives, Reference Checks:
  [20:19] - [22:36]

• Avoiding Purple Unicorns & Smart Accountability Chart Design:
  [23:25] - [27:00]

• When to Add Functions & The Critical Role of Middle Management:
  [28:23] - [32:00]

• Intentional Culture vs. Command-and-Control:
  [31:33] - [36:10]

• Coaching Through Hard Conversations & Letting People Go:
  [45:42] - [47:07]

• The Implementer's Relationship With Clients:
  [48:06] - [50:16]

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Build your company with intention—values, structure, and culture do not happen by accident.
• Hire for value compatibility and coachability; skills can be taught, desire and alignment cannot.
• Invest in your managers—they are critical for healthy scaling.
• EOS tools work not just in business but also in nonprofits, churches, and other sectors.
• Approach tough conversations with compassion and directness; honesty done right is a gift.

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Connect with C.J. Dube

• Website: cjdube.com
• Contact: Email found on site

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Closing Note:
This episode provides a clear, practical roadmap for leaders determined to build not just profitable, but meaningfully healthy organizations. C.J.’s candid, seasoned expertise challenges listeners to approach hiring and management as a deliberate extension of company values and long-term vision.

Transcript

[C.J. Dube]

How do we get where we can be an intentionally healthy business? Well, that takes a lot of us working together as a leadership team. What's the structure we want? What are the values we want? What is the culture we want? And then make sure that we're hiring and firing and mentoring and motivating to that.

[Ryan Hogan]

Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Let's jump in. All right, CJ, so there are, there are OGs. Do you know what OG stands for, by the way? Because I was talking to somebody last week and they were like, I had no, no idea.

[C.J. Dube]

Do you, do you know, so here, here's the thing. I always say they call me an og, and, and I don't know if that stands for old goat or old gangster. So goat or gangster? You guys can choose. Because I, you know, I mean, I'm good, I'm easy.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I don't, I don't. Now you have me questioning it if I know, because I'm gonna say something and then, and then someone's just gonna be like, dude, you've never, you've never known. I thought it was original Gangster. Is that. But you, you. What was the O?

[C.J. Dube]

You said old goat OG is old goat, old gangster original.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

There are, there are, there are people referred to as OGs, especially in kind of the EOS ecosystem. And like, you're kind of just an O. Like you're original.

[C.J. Dube]

Thanks.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

No, no, no, it was original. It was original.

[C.J. Dube]

Original. Okay, we'll go with original.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Yeah. Oh, that's terrible. I should have, I should have qualified that before we, before we launched into it. But you've, you've been, I think you and I got introduced by Sherry Kuhn at the last conference and, and Sherry was like, oh my gosh, you got to meet cj. I was like, oh, who's cj? And like there was just a list. It was like 20 things that she just rattled off, like first this, first that, classiest, you know, highest design, all of these different things. But you've been around for, for a minute, is that correct?

[C.J. Dube]

For a minute or two, yeah. I may of. This year was my 15th year as an EOS implementer, so I'm in my 16th year. Worked with, I've done about 830 all day sessions doing EOS, so I've done a few, worked with over 130 clients and living my Best life. I mean, it's my passion. Working with entrepreneurial teams and companies is what I love to do because I get to change the lives of individuals, of teams of companies every single day.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

And then one more just fun question because we only ask the hard hitting questions here. I remember you had red shoes on these amazing glasses. Do you have a stylist or did you just develop this style over time?

[C.J. Dube]

So the story is this, I've developed my own style, but as a young middle school, high schooler, I had scoliosis. Have scoliosis. So I had a Milwaukee back brace that I wore a bar here, bar down my front, full cast around my hips. So clothes was not fun. Pretty ugly actually. And then I had braces on my teeth and my nickname was Bracelet. So eventually I figured out, okay, once I got all through all of that, I'm like, okay, this is the one I want to look. And my dad actually of all things was very instrumental. He believed in a sophisticated, classy look. And I kind of take that with a twist.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

It's, it's, it's working like you, like after, after I met you, I could, I could spot you anywhere. So it was, it works. It's awesome. And one more thing is, didn't you, you left that conference, I think I saw a Tweet or a LinkedIn post from you and you're, you're like going to some mountain to climb 20,000ft. I was like, holy crap. Like, like, do you ever stop and where were you going at the time?

[C.J. Dube]

I went to Peru. The end of April, beginning of May was over 10 days and I went to, I hiked, saw Kante Pass and it was, I did 55 miles in seven days and it was up to 17, 000ft elevation. We did two summits and it was amazing. Yeah, it was a. Alpaca is the name of the troop that in Peru, in Cusco that helped us. They, we had our chefs, our porters, we slept in tents, all the good stuff. Yeah, it was great. Absolutely wonderful trip. It was the hardest physical thing I've ever done in my life. For sure, for sure.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Did you, did you train for that?

[C.J. Dube]

Yeah, I spent seven months doing personal training. Who? My son, Logan Dubay, happens to be a personal trainer and he's not easy on his mother, just to be clear. I think the other day he said to me, mom, you don't seem like you're in it to win it today. I said, shut up, son. Let's just keep going. I did train with him for seven months. And I still train with him. And then I hiked in Arizona. A lot of high elevations there, Flagstaff, as much as I could get.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Are you going through the, the, the motions of like oxygen deprivation and all the other things to like warm yourself up to, to heading up?

[C.J. Dube]

Yeah. So you take, there's some medications, types of things that you can take for altitude, for elevation. To be totally honest, I don't think anyone knows. You can do a lot of preventative things and you don't know how the altitude will affect you. Because I've had friends that have done way more things than I even did and got affected by altitude. I was blessed. I really, I mean, sure, when you're at 16,000ft elevation, you're taking 15 steps and taking a pause and then you're taking another 15 steps and. But there was 12 of us and I typically was at the front of the pack every time because I didn't have a lot of altitude issues myself.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

So there's a couple things here. I, I've been really excited to talk to you. I know we connected at the conference. We had a short phone call before this and now, now we're here. But there's, there's a lot of interesting things to talk about. So when you've done 830 sessions, you've had 130 clients, there's probably a bunch of stuff that you've accumulated throughout those conversations and those observations. I wanted to start with before you got into eos and I do want to get into that journey as well, but you were on the recruiting side and you and I had a quick conversation about that because I'm in recruiting and you have a lot of passion for people and right person, right seats and all of these tools that come with the kit. What are some of the stuff that, that you did that that kind of maybe helped show what you were getting yourself into with EOS or the foundations of right people. Right. See, sure.

[C.J. Dube]

So, I mean, I honestly think a lot of things all led me to eos. Being a implementer and doing what I do now, everything that I did prior pretty much led me that way. I mean, when it comes to people, that's all I've ever done from a leadership management and even holding people accountable. The LMA part of EOS has been doing for years. I cut my teeth in restaurant at a very young age. I was a dining room manager in at for a Radisson in Alexandria, Minnesota. Ended up really having like 30 to 40 waitresses reporting to me, doing all the scheduling for banquets and the dining room. It was a five star restaurant at the time. So I cut my teeth there. And then I was going to school kind of at the same time and got into sales and. But I, I really started my placement journey placing people, placing technicians and engineers. So at one point I had like 50 people technicians working at 3M and some of the other more manufacturing companies in Minneapolis market and had like 60 of my own people out working. So I was constantly connecting with candidates and putting them into positions and helping them that way. And then I worked for the large international staffing business for several years where I had five divisions downtown Minneapolis. And a lot of times what we did with half was you would hire the technical people and then teach them how to sell. So I would hire them and then I would help them and teach them how to sell because they were experts in, whether it be accounting, finance, whatever it is they were an expert in, we'd teach them how to sell. So all of that and then I launched my own with two partners, HR Contract Consulting business, which we grew up from 0 to 8 million in three years and had 65 HR senior level professionals in the Minneapolis market. So when you look at eos and you look at the people component, and we always say that out of all the surveys, 82% of the stress comes from the people component. Well, that was my entire life and having owned my own business, the HR contract consulting business. But then I also, right before that I had a massage center. I had a massage center for seven years. I know I. Not a lot of people know that part. It, it was my hobby. I literally joke about it being my hobby. I launched it and I had eight rooms and I had 15 employees and my daughters, I have four daughters, all worked there and they worked there through high school. And so they learned how to do scheduling, how to run their business. And I was in there nights and weekends and my husband did a lot of the back office. And quite honestly, that business drained a lot of money out of us. So we learned a lot of things. Not always the best way to do things. So I learned things the bad way, I learned things the good way and then. And that helps me a lot with the teams that I work with now.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

What were you, Was this your side hustle?

[C.J. Dube]

It sounds like, yeah, it's the right brain. Went crazy and said, hey, I want him, I want my own business. It was right before I launched that HR business. And so I did it. And believe me, there was a lot of pain with it, but a lot of Learning, a lot of learning and good learning. Really good, you know, and so I'm still a strong proponent and believer in massage. For all of us today, what would.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

You say, like, your. Your biggest lesson learned from.

[C.J. Dube]

From the massage parlor was culturally, it was different. It was a different culture of people. And so you learn to manage culturally, people that were different, which was good financially, the drain of it. What's the right way to do things? Everything from marketing to all the different financial pieces that. What worked, what didn't work. And you know, it's funny, because even you spent a lot of money on marketing and advertising. And the best marketing I had was painting my window. No joke. I was positioned right to the second busiest holiday station in Minnesota. And if I painted that window and said massage for this price, that's where I got most of my clients. That's crazy. You just learn a lot of different, unique ways of. It was just a different. It was a small business. And yeah, I learned I had to sweat it a couple of times to make payroll. I had some tough times, but I gritted it out and the end, it was great. Great learning.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

That's awesome. And like, I. I feel you on. On all of that. My first company, it took off and like, I couldn't even spell P and L. And so, like, where did all the money. I. I can't even tell you where all the money went. Like, it. It just left the bank account, and next thing we knew, it wasn't there. And that was a painful, painful lesson. I'm trying to think of the marketing because I've heard this before of, like, there are other ways to market than like, investing 7,000amonth into SEO and paid search and all of these other things. And one of the things that you discovered was like, if you just painted your window with the. Whatever it was for that week, you could acquire more customers than maybe some of these other tactics. Not that you lose belief in those other things, but, like, what did that just open your eyes to? Like, there's other ways to do business.

[C.J. Dube]

Yeah. And I think that it depends on the business. Right. So every business has to look at what helps that business the best. And sometimes that's a trial and error and figuring out what. That. What works. And it's okay to trial and error on some things. You just got to learn from it. Right. You discover certain things didn't work, and then you'd have to try something else. And then you discover, well, the simplest thing and the least expensive thing is actually what's bringing in most of the Business in that situation that would have been very, very different from my HR contract consulting business. We did a ton of marketing with that business and that was mostly networking. That was me going to all of the HR events and doing all of that. So it was a different type of marketing every, you know, and that's the beauty I have as an EOS implementers. I work with so many different industries and when I did placement, I did all sorts of placement. I didn't stay in one discipline. A lot of people stay in one discipline. I actually placed in H R it, legal, banking, finance, accounting, sales, marketing. I placed in everywhere because I was a salesperson more than I was disciplined in it. And so you just have to look at your business and say what's best for your business. And sometimes that, like I said, takes trial and error which as long as you can learn from things, we're good. It's not always fun. We have to learn.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

This might actually roll right into the next question because you've said this a couple times and it's really interesting where whether it's your philosophy or how you've done it in the past, it's about like finding people that maybe have or have had that technical capacity and then you're able to kind of train them into the others. Is that, is that a philosophy that you hold today? Was that a strategy that was already there and so you were executing or still today do you believe like there's some foundational stuff you need and if you find the right person, everything else can be trained.

[C.J. Dube]

It was a philosophy of the organization to hire the technical people and teach them how to sell. But then there's the opposite that I did, right? I was the opposite of that. I was the salesperson that learned the disciplines. Because at first when I was placing engineers, you're. Before I worked for the large organization. It, it was. Why would I. They were curious about who this woman was that was calling them to place engineers because it was a very male dominated industry. And so they. I'd get in the door out of curiosity because they were curious who I was and then I had to know my stuff. And once I was proved I could technically speak their language and knew how to make good placements, then I proved myself. And so I think it's about the passion that a person has. And I still believe strongly any business needs to think structure first. So what is the structure that you're looking for in your organization and then what are the five roles in that seat that you need and make your hires from there and so can people be trained? Yes. And so using some of the EOS language of does a person get it, want it, have capacity to do the job? Right. Here's the structure that I need. Here's the seat I have open. I'm talking to this person, do they fit my values? And then do they GWC the seat? The reality is gwc, over time can change. So you have to ask yourself, how long are you willing to get someone up to speed and some positions, it could be one to three years to get them fully up to speed. And in the placement industry, that's fact. It, it would take almost three years to get someone really cruising and doing well in that industry. Right. And that's what I hired for. I wanted them up and running in six months to a year. But to get full speed and be really, really good, I believe it took three years. And I think that's a lot true for implementers today. I think it takes us time to get up to speed and really be comfortable and good at what we do. I'm not saying someone doesn't deliver good sessions in their first month for that matter, because we train them, but it takes time. I'm hoping that answers your question, Ryan. Might be a long answer.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

No, it's, it's a, it's a great answer. And I think, like to, to me and probably to some of the listeners, like, it's a, it's almost a gut check because I think a lot of people when they're going out and they're trying to hire for a position, the first thing they're thinking about is like, I will find this person and get them spun up in 90 days. And what I heard from you is like, hey, we, we really need to think about kind of Runway to get them up to whatever their maximum effectiveness may be. And if that's the case, then like what, what are you looking for? Because I'm sure that goes well beyond, you know, the capacity of that human at that point.

[C.J. Dube]

Well, so you're looking for, first of all, establishing your core values as a business. What are your core values? What do you value? And then coming up with what I call, you know, we've heard it many times, behavioral interview questions to make sure they fit those values and then be clear on the seat that you want, be clear on that. If you need someone to be up and running like now, like immediate, then you need to hire for that, which you're probably gonna have to pay for that too. And be prepared for that. I mean, old motto is higher, slow Fire fast. And what I mean by higher slow is do your due diligence, take your time, don't rush into it. Some of us want to fill a seat so badly because we feel like we have, we need it because the business needs someone else in there. But the problem is, is if you just put a button, a seat, whether you like the saying or not, six months later you're looking again. So you just cost yourself money and time. So, so that's why I say because it really does cost a lot of money when someone turns over six months a year regularly. And not to mention the non monetary which is the effect that it has on all the people around them when that person doesn't work out.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Where do you see most companies get this wrong?

[C.J. Dube]

Well, I love my visionaries and my visionaries like to use their gut. And I get it, I use my gut all day long too. I get it, right? But sometimes, oh, I really like that person. That person's great. Let's put you in this job, let's put you here. And I'm like, okay. But we didn't do our due diligence, we didn't work through things, questions, interviews, maybe even take them to dinner, take them to lunch, right. And so it's the, I just, I panic and I want someone in the seat. So I take whoever's available. And it takes patience. Gotta slow yourself down enough to really be processing to make sure you get the right person.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Do you believe in, in panel interviews after, before or after the hiring manager?

[C.J. Dube]

I do to a certain degree. I think that they're, they can be beneficial to do some panel interviews depending upon who it is and what the seat. But again, I believe in multiple interviews because we all can, any one person can go in and absolutely shine fabulously for an interview and not shine at the job. So I believe in getting to know the person a little bit, understanding them a bit, making sure we know what they've done in the past. Because we all repeat ourselves to a certain degree until we learn and we change a little bit. But oftentimes we all have a pattern of how we work. Good or bad. Good or bad. And so when someone has the same pattern, whether it be first job, second job, third job, the odds are they're going to have that same pattern. So the more questions you ask them about what they've done in this job or why they've left that job will help you to see the pattern that they have. And I believe in asking if I'm hiring a salesperson or someone like that I'm going to, I want numbers, I want you to give me your data, give me your facts, give me your data, give me your information.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

And are there things like, you know, when you start getting that data, sometimes, sometimes it becomes easy to figure out or easier to figure out if they're full of crap. Are, are you like going deep into the data and then asking, you know, different questions around the, the information they're giving you, or are you taking that data and then as a part of the, the reference checks, you'll bring that up again to validate some of that?

[C.J. Dube]

Well, the reality is reference checks in some ways don't even work anymore. I mean, it just depends on if you can get to the right person that knows them and that will give you that data. Most of the time. A lot of times they won't. So I ask a lot of scenario questions. I go deep. And in the recruiting world I could go deep and I could know I can ask the right questions that are gonna, I'm gonna know if they're telling the truth or not telling the truth. And you can do enough research to know if they are or not.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

One of the things you talked about earlier, and this is kind of that common nomenclature of like, you know, how many roles and responsibilities to each seat and generally it's three to five and it's just kind of like those, those higher level things. Do you ever. There's this notion of purple unicorns and I think they call them purple unicorns, but basically you've made this list in which like it is impossible to find somebody that is both an expert CFO and an expert graphic designer and an expert whatever else. And combining that into one, are there, are there things that you're looking for when, when your clients are, are putting together their accountability chart or they're opening a new seat, are, are you looking for specific things where you're like, hey listen, I know you've got five in there, but I'm telling you that those five, generally speaking, that's what we call a purple unicorn.

[C.J. Dube]

Okay? So when my teams are building their accountability chart and they're building their structure, whether that's the leadership team or the mid management level or all the way through the business, right? It's saying what is the business need? And the business needs can change over time. So in one business, on a leadership team, and I don't use titles, it's the function. So we call it the finance function. But to use a title we, one business might need a controller. And what does that look like for you, another business needs a cfo and oftentimes a CFO will have HR reporting to them. Will have it reporting to them. So you have to look at that as well. So it's like saying, okay, what does the business need? Eyes wide open. Help you build your structure first of what the business needs and then what are the roles that you want in that seat. And five roles is ultimately somewhat high level. But there are scenarios where I want to hire a CFO and that cfo in our business, we want HR reporting to them when we want it. Well, that CFO says, I don't like hr, I don't want hr. Well, too bad. That's our structure. This is what our seat is. And I don't think you're the right fit then. Right. And so, but people will acquiesce and oh, he'll be fine. He'll. He'll be, he'll learn to like hr. Most people don't learn to like hr. They either like it or they don't. You're right. Right. I mean you either like to lead, manage and hold people accountable or you don't. And a lot of people don't. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just being clear what does the business need and how do you want to set it up and then make sure you find the right match of the person that wants that. The W is huge. When we talk about get it God given talent to do the job, we talk about want it and then you talk about capacity. Well, capacity is the mental, physical, emotional, spiritual skill. Capacity to do the job. Okay. But for me, the wanted is the most important. And I've been using the word wanted way before EOs, way before. If, if I hired someone who had been in public accounting, they wanted out of public accounting and they wanted to start to sell and place accountants, they had to want it pretty bad because if they didn't want it, they weren't going to learn, they weren't coachable. So to get someone to learn new skills and new things, you have to want it and you have to be coachable.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Are those two of kind of like the more on probably the behavioral side, are these things that you're actively looking for? Like, hey, I see your resume. Yeah, you've got the things that we're looking for, but the eyes wide open, like are they coachable? Yeah. Do they, do they want it bad enough?

[C.J. Dube]

Yeah. Do they want it and are they coachable? Are they willing to learn? Are they willing to try something New and different are they? I mean, I'm 63 years old and I'm gonna learn until I'm 104. So I mean, it's just like if you don't want to learn, you don't want to keep being coached and do something new and different, then that may or may not be. But other seats in businesses, they just need them to do this box and do it. And that works for some people and there's nothing wrong with that. But you just. I'm just saying be conscious of what you're hiring for and think about it before be proactive that way.

[Ryan Hogan]

All right, quick break friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

2025, I started Talent Harbor.

[Ryan Hogan]

And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting as a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements and we become an extension for your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I've never asked this question anyway. I feel like we're, we're at like, we're talking like really specific inside of especially even the accountability chart. So I don't want to say at the advanced level, but it's one of those things where usually we scratch the surface. I would love to hear this from you though, which is, you know, there's this philosophy that there's three core function areas in any business. And so you've got operations, you've got sales and marketing, and you've got finance. When do you believe or what have you seen with your clients where it's time to start adding additional kind of Core functions to the business. What are some of those triggers or things that you're looking for where you're like, this is now a big enough core function for the enterprise that we should X or Y.

[C.J. Dube]

Okay. So depending upon the business that I have, it can happen as soon as the focus day, the very first day when we're building the accountability chart for the first time. It absolutely can add functions. I have had general counsel as a seat on a leadership team. Right. So I've had compliance right out of the gate as a seat. So it can happen. It depends on the business. But then over time we consistently need to be looking at the business and saying, okay, we, what leader do we need here now to help us grow this business? And so then we have to add that leadership seat. But it's also at the mid level as well. Sometimes more importantly, I mean to use the term mid level manager. I don't care if you call them directors managers, whatever the term is. From a title standpoint, I tell all my leaders on all my leadership teams, you really are as only as good as your middle management. I just strongly believe that the stronger your middle management, the stronger the leadership team, the more the company's gonna scale and grow and be healthy.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I couldn't agree with that more. So in the Navy, I've been in the Navy for 23 years. 15ish thing. How long? Gosh, I think it was 15 active. So 15 active and then the last 8.

[C.J. Dube]

I have a son in law in the army.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Oh really?

[C.J. Dube]

17 years in.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Wow, that's awesome. I just, I went to war college last year, year before and I was with a whole bunch of, we spent a lot of time with the mar. A lot of time with the army. And so it was great to, it was great to mingle. And then the football game, that's okay, we get over that. But I agree with you. So in the Navy, we call it the, we call it the Chiefs. The Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy. And it's like the, some of the highest enlisted ranks, but it's like, it's where all the work gets done because they're the one that's taking kind of the vision, things that are happening and making sure that those things get accomplished in organization, things like that. What are, what are some kind of key areas? Maybe it's companies that you see do it well. Maybe, maybe like you find the lessons learned are the ones that aren't doing it well. But like what are the companies that, that have fully activated kind of that middle layer where Things are. Things are working. Like, what are they doing differently where. Where that stuff's not working.

[C.J. Dube]

I would say it's about. My experience is mostly when companies get to 50 employees or more. So companies that I have are 50 employees, 100 employees. I mean, I have companies that have 1500 employees. Okay. So it's absolutely a size. And then it's also about how long the company's been in business. Sometimes there's. It depends on. I've had companies shift and change because of generations shifting and changing. So if you think about the culture of a business, and it's in the people book, so we talk about an intentional. So on the axiom here, there's intentionality, and then you have healthy across. Right? And so there's businesses that start out, and we call that the happy accident. So the happy accident is, I'm gonna start a business. Great. You know, I. I wasn't any different. I brought in my family, my husband, my friends to help me start the massage center. Right, okay. Right. Well, eventually it turned out some of those friends and family didn't quite work out. And so you just get where, okay, it was healthy in the beginning because it was fun and exciting, and the business is growing. And a couple things happen. Either the business gets to a point where it needs to add other. It doesn't want to because it knows their family and friends, and we're happy. We're good. Okay. They don't want to bring anyone else in. So then it's. It stagnates. Or they do start bringing people in, but they don't think about really clearly who do they need and what do they need, and they just start bringing people in. And so I've had a lot of companies that over the years that have done that, and then a couple of them, even recently, as of a couple months ago, looking and go, okay, we didn't believe we. When you said happy accident, but we're five years in in this business now, and now we believe you. I'm like, okay, right, okay. So that's happy accident, where they're healthy, and then up at the top, intentional. Extremely intentional. That's command and control. And there are still businesses out there that you have one person who's in command and in control, and that's the way he or she wants to run their business. Could be a leadership team, but what they do is they don't care about turnover. They figure they can always find more people. So they churn and burn. A lot of people. It's intentional, but they're Churning and burning intentionally. Now what happens in both scenarios? Happy accident or command and control. All of a sudden you go down to chaotic culture. And they end up with very big pockets of chaotic culture where there's toxicity, right? Water cooler conversations, buzz going on, backstabbing things happening. Right? And so that's chaotic. What we want to do is be able to move ourselves up to intentional and healthy. So how do we get where we can be an intentionally healthy business? Well, that takes a lot of us working together as a leadership team. What's the structure we want, what are the values we want? What is the culture we want? And then make sure that we're hiring and firing and mentoring and motivating to that. Now, most teams, if you get really conscious of it, you can get there in 18 months. Can you get there overnight? No. And you're. And even really intentional and healthy companies can have still a couple of pockets where there's chaotic culture. So it's, it's this thing about running businesses. It's not always easy. I teach real simple results, but it's not always easy.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Right there with you. So like the time that I couldn't spell piano, we hired all of our best friends, took money from like, it's just like, you name it. And I was like, what. What are we doing here with the command and control? So I think about this often and maybe it's not the command and control. Maybe what I'm really looking at is a poor culture because I see organizations like thrive and, and I'm like that that organization has a terrible culture. And it's like they're thriving in spite of themselves. Do you like. With command and control, do you add. It's hard to say, is it a good. Because theoretically there are no bad unless it's toxic. But do you believe that that's still a viable culture or process to run an organization? Or is it, is it outdated? It's just people are still holding on to those types of organizational architecture.

[C.J. Dube]

It's a great question. And I, and how I see it is, if you think about it generationally, like I have a lot of businesses that I have a couple of businesses that are into fourth generation now. Well, the, the first generation and the second generation, that's how they ran their business. Control and command. And it worked. I mean, baby boomers, we went to work and I'm the youngest of the boomer, probably break them old, but a lot of them would go to work, do their job, get paid and go home. And they were okay with the control and command What I. But nowadays, generationally, our generate newer generations, they do not want to work for control and command. It's not what they want to do. And so they're not going to last there long. And so I do think it's more and more over time is going away, but it does still exist, for sure.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

We have seen the same thing in the Navy, like, kind of gone ish. I'm trying to think of when the last time I got screamed at, but, like, kind of, kind of gone ish are the days of the yelling and screaming and hooting. It still happens.

[C.J. Dube]

I mean, you still need results, right? Any way you look at it, we still have to get the results that we're looking for in a business. And it's just how can we approach it to get the results that we're looking for?

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Yeah, it's so interesting to me because, like, for some reason, like, I don't. I don't think that a certain generation just rolled over and said, you know what, I'd really like to know why we're doing what we're doing. Like, it feels like those things have come up before. It's just like they've been stifled enough.

[C.J. Dube]

If you do some of the studies, and I'm not an expert on this by any means. Okay. But if you look at the Generation Z's that are coming up, right, they actually will work like a baby boomer. The difference is they want to know why, they need context of what they're doing, and they need to know why they're doing what they're doing. You give them a good context, a good why, they will work extremely hard.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I don't even think we got into how you. How. How did you get into EOS? What? What's that? Gosh, now we're like rewinding 30 minutes ago. But you had a company.

[C.J. Dube]

I own a business with two partners, the HR Contract Consulting business. And I was a member of EO Entrepreneurs organization. And I sold in 09. And I literally intended on just going and launching another one in the future. But I was in EO and the book Traction had just come out. And everyone kept saying, okay, you need to read this book Traction. You need to read this. And then it became cj, you need to do this. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just like everyone else. Yeah, I'll get there. Finally, I did sit down and read the book and I went, oh, wow. I did some things pretty well, but I could have done some things a lot better too. And so then I did the Webinar. Don Tinny, the original integrator for EOS Worldwide, and did the webinar with him. And I got off that webinar, that call with him. I walked out into the living room, I looked at my husband, I said, I know what I'm doing for the rest of my life. And he went, oh, here we go again. And so literally, that's it. I went to boot camp, paid, and went a week later. No joke. I literally. But I'm a risk taker, so if you know Colby at all. Have you heard of Colby? The assessment to a Colby, right? So I am the, the quick start risk taker. And I'm like, I'm in now. Full disclosure, I really just thought it was going to be a tool in my toolbox because I was already doing some sales consulting and doing some other. Helping another company launch. I was doing some other things, and I thought it'd just be a tool in my toolbox. Well, then when I got into it, I was just falling in love left and right. It took me a year to, as we say, burn the boats. So the other adventures I had going, I had to burn those boats and go all in on EOs, which I don't have one single regret. It was the hard, very hard thing for me to do, but I did it and I love it. And then I was on the leadership team for EOS worldwide for seven years as well. So I was there to help it grow, which was fabulous. And here I am.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

That's also what do you know your Colby score off top of your head?

[C.J. Dube]

4,000, 483. I'm an accommodating fact finder and accommodating follow through. I'm an eight quick start risk taker, and I'm a three implementer, which is physical hands on, which means I'm more in my head and more visionary.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I'm a 2395. I have a feeling like you and I would drive each other nuts.

[C.J. Dube]

Not surprising, actually.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I'll try. Like, would we get any work done, cj, or would we just constantly need lots of assistance?

[C.J. Dube]

Lots of assistance. As a matter of fact, my assistant today for this, she texts me at 4:30. She goes, Remember you have a podcast at 5:30. I go, yes, dear, I know. And she goes, well, I didn't want you to get into the wine and forget, so I'm saving my wine. I'm drinking water, everyone.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Nice. That's. Yeah, I have it swapped out right now too. Maybe not too long after this. Okay, and then how long how long did it take you. You said a year or two to, like, actually burn the boats. Like, when did you start feeling kind of comfortable? Because I've. I've heard a variety. Some people are like, you know, it took me three years to. To get to a place I believe.

[C.J. Dube]

To be really strong in your practice can take two to three years. Some people have come out of the gate and have done fabulous and added 20 clients like that. Others, like, for me, I mean, if you think back 16 years ago, really, EOS wasn't as popular. People didn't know what it was, and there's still so many people that don't know what it is. But. And so there was a lot of Boulder pushing and, you know, there was probably 10. There was. I was like one of the first 10. And it did grow fairly quickly once all of us started going, which was great. But I really was the only. The first and only woman that stuck for three years. For the first three years.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

That is awesome. That. That was one of. Out of the 15 things. That was one of the 15 that. That Sherry spoke of. And that's. That's awesome. What are you. We talked a lot about people. I feel like we could go right back into people. What are some other things? Like, you. You have a tremendous amount of experience. There is quite, quite a few sessions under your belt. Like, what have been some of the common things that you see where you're, like, going in. I know we're going to have XYZ issue and, like, we're going to. We're going to get into it now.

[C.J. Dube]

Right out of the gate with focus day. First few days with a team, I kind of can tell what the team is like. And usually what happens in a year's time is one person will leave the team or something, they'll add someone to the team. And I usually have a pretty good gut on who won't be there in the future. However, they need to come to that decision on their own. I'm there to be their teacher, their facilitator, their coach. I'm not there to tell them how to run their business or make their decisions for them. So I'm helping them and coaching them in a way to help them make those decisions. And when it becomes really clear with EOS that accountability is absolutely at the forefront of everything that we do, and some people just don't like the expectations or don't want to do those expectations, and so they opt out. And some people realize they don't have the right people and they help that Person out. You know, we've talked, you know, with eos, the main tool, one of the key tools that we use is called the Vision Traction Organizer. So it's helping that team to build that two page business plan. And through the process of building that, a lot of things come true as to what a team wants for the future of the businesses. And they're not always aligned what that is, but once you get that set, that's your guiding light. So greater good equals every single word of that Vision Traction Organizer multiplied by genuine care and concern. So genuine care and concern, as I say, is not all hugging and kissing. It means sometimes we have to have tough conversations, sometimes we have to help that person realize you're not the right person for this team or this business and to take it to the next level. And that's, like I said, that's not always easy. But if we, we can still coach and help and have someone move to a different role and, or out of the business with care and concern, we can do that.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I, I don't think I've ever done firing, right. And it's been one of those things where like, you know, not having the conversations when I should have and then, and then it's too late by the time we get to a place of where, where it's like, it's, it's too much now. Like, how do you, how do you help your visionaries or, or other people that struggle either with the tough conversations or, or struggle with letting people go? Like, what are some tools, advice, things that you give them as, as they are like in this situation and trying to figure out a, a way out.

[C.J. Dube]

Well, one of the first things that I is 24 hour rule, right? It's like you need to both good and bad, giving positive feedback in 24 hours and, or giving the negative feedback in 24 hours. You know, praise in public, criticizing private. A couple of things, right? Because what happens is us humans, we forget. We forget the good as much as we forget the bad. So when you try to tell someone two weeks later or a month later that what they did was terrible and bad and they should have never done it, well, they don't remember or they'll go, yeah, whatever. That, that was just, I was just in a bad mood that day. Right? Well then they do the exact same thing again and then they do it again and then you do it again. And if you don't repetitively say this isn't working, we don't, like you're not showing up, well with this value, you're not doing the job. Right. Right. If we don't share with them, that's not fair. It's just downright not fair to tell someone all of a sudden, this isn't working. Here's your severance package. Goodbye. Because you didn't like them and they weren't working out. Well, that's not fair to them. Help them, coach them, tell them. Because quite honestly, they're going to be grateful in the future. If they don't hear you right away, they'll get to another role. They might do the same things or maybe they'll learn from it and they won't do the same things and then they'll be very, very successful. So I just believe we owe it to people to be honest with them.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

So two things. One, I recently discovered that it was Dan Wallace that came through my Vistage group back in 2016. Crazy. Like we were, we were just talking on the phone. He's like, oh, how'd you learn about it? And I was like, oh, I implemented my last company. And anyhow, he was like, oh, that was me and Tom Leonard's group in Seattle and he doesn't even live in Seattle. So he was the last person I would have thought of that was. That was doing that. And then we wound up a couple of years later going with Margaret Dixon out of Boulder, Colorado. And she was, she was, and she was just like, she was like my rock through so many tough conversations just because like you would the whole. With love and respect and then something, something fire was coming out. Whatever was at the end of that. Do you find yourself kind of in a similar, a similar thing where like you're coaching, you're helping the team, but you also become sort of like a confidant or, or a third party maybe to the visionary integrator to help them think through things.

[C.J. Dube]

Yeah, that's what I'm there to do. I'm there to be there for them and to be there to help them in any way that I can. Both, I mean, the visionaries, of course, helping them make sure that they can have the right perfect puzzle piece of that integrator. And then the integrators of the world must number one bullet on the role there is lma leading, managing and holding people accountable. That's the number one role of an integrator. And so helping them to see that and then coach them through how they can do that. And I love doing that work. I love being there for them. And I mean, a lot of my clients over the years I've been there for them, and I want to be there for them. I've had really scary situations that have happened with teams. I've had people die. I've had people get really sick. And I'm there to compassionately help them through. Through whatever they're going on in their life. Because as entrepreneurs, most of us live our life full circle. Our personal life is involved in our business life, and our business life is involved in our personal, because we never shut it off, right? And so things happen, and it's real. So how do we help them? And that's what I'm there to do. And, I mean, I have a story of one Easter, I got a phone call, and it was a team. And it's Easter, and one of my leaders calls me, and I can tell she's really upset. And I go into the bedroom and she tells me what's going on. And one of the leaders had died. And I said to my husband, good luck with the brunch for 20 people, honey, I'll be in here for a while. Because that was priority for me. I needed to be there. And so that's what we're there to do. And a lot of us implemented, all of us implementers, we're there to help. We're there to be your accountability coach as well, though. So there are times where I will look someone in the face, tell them I love them, but also tell them they're full of shit. So it. If you get me, you get direct and candid, whether you like it or not. So, you know, I always tell that up front, though. You might not want me.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Yeah, they might not want you, but they need you. And that. That's. That can sometimes be the. Be the thing. What do you look for in a client? So I realize you're like, straddling two different states kind of across the. The country. Like, are you. Do you look for certain things in companies, geographically, size, like, what's a great client to you?

[C.J. Dube]

You know, in the beginning, you kind of just want to grow your business, so you take a lot of different teams, and then you learn what teams work with you and what teams don't work with you. And my answer today is, and this is just who I am, Ryan, is I say, God, tell me who you want me to take, and I'll be there. So a team that is willing to be. Willing to be open, honest, vulnerable, and be real and raw, I want them. I want them. And, you know, it's always fun to have an industry or business or organization that I haven't had before. So like I have over the last few years I've taken on and worked with a few different churches and, and it's great. I, because they're still a business and they want to learn more about running it as a business because they're large, they're a very large organization. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I can tell if I have teams that come in and they think they know it all, already, then I'm like, yeah, I'm probably not it. Because we're gonna clash. Because if you think you know it all, you don't need me.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Yep. I love the whole, the whole church thing. Like, I, I've been talking more and more times, like government agencies come up and mostly at like the state or you know, kind of local city level nonprofits, things like that. And so it's amazing. Like these other, not other, but like, you know, when generally when you think about some sort of business framework, you think about some sort of profitable, you know, private entity and to see that this can apply into so many kind of amazing other areas and, and help and optimize, that's. That's awesome.

[C.J. Dube]

So, yeah, from my experience with nonprofits, the hardest thing, the ones that didn't work were the ones where the, it was volunteers on the leadership team. And it's not that the volunteers weren't great, it's that they turn over. Right. And so, or boards when you, you know, you have a new board member every year or you know, you replace the chair every year. I mean, that's difficult then because you, it's hard. We are time based learning. We teach this over time. It takes two years plus to learn the tools. And once you do and you have it mastered, ultimately it just becomes your business lifestyle. But you have to know it takes time and it's a time based learning system.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Sometimes your personal lifestyle, then you got the eos lifestyle and just everything's, everything's coming together.

[C.J. Dube]

Which is my wish for everyone is to live their eos life, doing what you love with people that you love, making a huge difference in the world, getting paid appropriately and having time for other passions.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

I love that. Okay, so on that, on that note, like somebody just listened to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I, I have to have some C.J. in my life. I've got this business problem. I've got this, I've got that. How can someone that just listened to this get a hold of you?

[C.J. Dube]

C.J. dube.com. That's simple. Just like that. Email me anytime. Don't worry, then I'll give you my phone number.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

Love it. C.J. thank you so much for taking the time. Like, everybody has choices, obviously, and. And you probably have a lot of choices. And so spending an hour with me and kind of talking about your past and the lessons you learned, I don't think I've ever been so deep into kind of the people aspect and the accountability charts. I thought that was great. But I just to want to thank you for. For taking an hour, skipping the wine or postponing the wine and coming on.

[C.J. Dube]

It's okay. I'll go feed the husband now. He'll be fine.

[Ryan (Navy Veteran / Talent Harbor Founder)]

He's, like, waiting outside the door right now. Like, are we are we doing this or what? Awesome. Thanks again, C.J. i appreciate it.

[C.J. Dube]

Absolutely. Ryan, thanks so much.