← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
From Reactive To Intentional: Leading With Clarity with Zach Arend
00:55:48
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- [00:00]
A
I spent a lot of time helping leaders get more selfish with a capital S because my questions I ask them is like, well, what's important to you? What do you think is the next step? What do you see as the possibility? Every question has the common denominator of you in it. And that's drawing people back to themselves, I think is a critical lesson in leadership because that is nobody's coming, it's you. So we need to learn to trust that.
- [00:30]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. Zach, I appreciate you joining. Like, we've got, we've got a lot of like really interesting topics and I talk to, every now and then I talk to some EOS implementers and so there's, there's a varying degree or journey of stories, but yours specifically starts as a two time state champion saddle bronc rider all the way to eo. So why don't we start there? How did you get into that and what was that all about?
- [01:12]
A
Yeah, well, growing up small town Nebraska, a mom and dad owned a small town grocery store and got into horses at a very young age. In fact, my first horse was a Shetland pony named Princess, like 8 years old. But by the time I was 14, had been around horses for a while and I remember seeing a friend of mine standing behind the chutes. We were at this rodeo and I saw him climb on the back of a 2,000 pound wild horse in the saddle bronc riding event and nods his head and I mean that horse is bucking and kicking and he's hanging on for dear life. But then the buzzer and everybody's just applauding and he gets a standing ovation, wins the round. And I look over at my mom and I'm like, I want to do that. And so I get a coach and I start learning to ride Bronx. And for two years I did nothing but hit the ground. I broke my hand, ankle, collarbone, two concussions. And by the time I was 16, I hadn't once made it to the eight second buzzer. Not once. Not once.
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B
Eight seconds.
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A
Eight seconds. That's all you got to stay on, eight seconds. But I couldn't do it. All I had to show for it was the broken bones and concussions and you know, I, but I stayed at it and I just remember I was 16 years old and I got on this horse and all of a sudden it just clicked. I don't know, it was all the times of hitting the ground. Something clicked for me and it was like slow motion. I made it all the way to the buzzer, crowd applauded and I went on to be a two time state champion. So those final two years in high school, things really clicked into place. And you know, now today I bring a lot of lessons from the rodeo arena into leadership and into business in the clients I work with.
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B
Today, just so maybe just for my awareness, maybe the audience already knows when we talk about the 8 second bell, are you competing just who gets date seconds or who stays on longer or is it about style as well? Where is the judging?
- [03:07]
A
Well, it's half the score goes to the horse, half the score goes to the rider. So you've probably heard of the saying luck of the draw. The luck of the draw. So every rodeo you pay your entry fee and then you don't know what horse you drew that until you get there. And there's different rankings of horses. You know, you might draw a really nasty horse or a really average horse that's going to be harder to score high on. So yeah, half the score to me, half the score of the horse. So. And you were competing with other riders, you know, who can, who can give their best. You know, each rider gets a score of 0 to 100. But um, half of it goes towards the rider, half of it goes to the horse.
- [03:45]
B
And when we say goes to the horse, is it, is it about like, is the evaluation about how the rider is handling the is like the thought process that, because it's, it's like you said, it's luck of the draw. Maybe I get a great horse, maybe I don't. Is it really about like how did you manage that horse in that environment and get them to do what you needed that horse to do?
- [04:08]
A
Yeah. Well, there's a, in my keynote talk, there's a principle I teach leaders called raise high and lift. And you know when you're behind a chute about ready to climb over on top of a 2,000 pound horse, it does not want you on its back. I just remember one of the things my coach taught me was to raise high and lift. Raise high and lift. And so what that means is, you know, everything in you wants to contract and be small and tighten up. And that's a recipe for disaster. You're not, you're going to hold the horse back and you're not, you're going to probably land on the ground because you're not going to be loose and freed up. And so raise high and lift means you got to lift your hand in the air, raise that rain high and, and reach with your feet. And so you're literally doing the opposite of what fear is telling you to do. Fear wants you to be small, and you got to learn to do the opposite and really open up the space to. And that's how you get the highest, that's how the rider gets the highest score. The more they can open up and the, the more they can spur up into that horse and free, you know, the more free they are on that horse, the higher the, the score. And so that's a, you know, in business too, right? I mean, what do we do when pressure's on, things aren't going the way we want to tighten our grip. We want to, you know, push people aside. And we got to learn to do the opposite just to create that opening for our people, to support us, to give them an opportunity to lift others up so that we can all start playing a bigger game. And so I like that spirit of not letting fear determine how we show up, because I had to learn that really early on riding Bronx.
- [05:38]
B
How do you do that? Like when, when you're coming up and you've got coaching and it's like, you know, you've got someone that's telling you you gotta relax, like your body and every, every fiber in your being is going to say, tense up. It's going to say, you know, brace for impact, whatever the case is. But you have to fight those impulses, those natural impulses. Like, is this, is this breathing techniques? Is this meditation? Like, like what, what kind of helped you get comfortable in that type of environment?
- [06:12]
A
I can't say there was any techniques. It was a lot of. Just some, some of it happens naturally. And I think listeners can relate. Like when, when your back's against the wall and there is no like time to play mental ping pong in the moment your body and you know what to do. And so in bronc riding, kind of like in, like you didn't have time to think. Like, it, the show must go on. Like, you're up, you, you don't get to like, I'm not. Hold on, I'm not ready. Like, no, it's like you're, you got, it's time to go and you just go, you throw yourself at it. And, and I think that there's just a level of commitment that happens that you don't have time to be in your head. And I Think that's the lesson is just working with executives and leaders as a coach and an EOS implementer. So often we get tangled up into our thoughts. You know, how are we going to do this? How are we going to figure this out? What's the problem here? How are we going to solve it? And we get so in our heads about things that we need to learn to trust ourselves more. I'm in the process of writing a book called Unbridled the Subtle Art of leading yourself so that you can lead others. And I think the question you're asking is you have to learn to lead yourself. And so it's not a question of how. It's a question of who do I need to be to achieve this, and what are the characteristics? And how do I need. How. How do I need to. And want to relate to the circumstances in. In my organization or on my team? Because how we relate to things is going to determine how we show up, and ultimately it's going to determine what's possible. So, yeah, I'm not sure I answered your question directly, but I don't know if there is an intellectual answer to that. It's more of a. You just. You just do it. You trust yourself.
- [07:52]
B
I don't. I don't typically bring everything back to Top Gun. I do. Top Gun has, like, a very special place in my heart, so I will just quote it here and probably misquote it, but he's like, don't think. Just do. And, like, it kind of feels like that's some of the spirit that you're getting at here. And, like, do you think that there's things that can be taught and there's things that take time? And what's been interesting is I was having a conversation yesterday about, like, developing leaders. And in the Navy, it is both learning, training is what we call it in the Navy, but, you know, whatever that is to help with that professional development. And it's also time. And there's something into, like, today's environment where everybody wants things now, now, now. But there are, like, some things do take time. You can't just. You can't just rush the training that comes along with the feel and the experience and the lessons that you learn by actually doing it. When you talked about this, like, funnel vision, and I relate to that. Not on horses. I used to race cars illegally. Um, but I think we're past the. Whatever window is where people could come. Um, but the whole thing there was, like, I got to a place where I could just, like, see and everything Just kind of came into focus. You had that experience. What. What kind of came into that? Like, was it time and training and coaching? Was it just like a magical moment where all those pieces came together simultaneously?
- [09:11]
A
Yeah. Um, and I would love to hear a little bit more about the Navy training, too. Um, for me, it was a lot of repetition and a lot of getting back up and dusting myself on it and just getting back. Cause in the. In bronc riding, it's just always interesting. It's like you're either doing it or you're not doing it. Like, there's no in between. Um, and knowing what I know now, there's probably so many more, like, deliberate practice methods that could have led me to learning to be better as a bronc rider. But back then, we didn't talk about that stuff. It was just kind of like, put your butt in the arena and keep getting back up, keep getting back on. And honestly, that's what worked for me. Looking back, though, I started breaking this down because I get asked a lot, like, how did you learn? And frankly, it wasn't a how. It was more of a. I was so determined to do this. It was just like, I am going to do this. And I. It took me two years to figure it out. And yet there were some things that did help. And learning where I could find some. Safety is not the right word. Because I'm on a bronc. I can't say that that's safe, but there were, like, I was getting all this instruction on how I needed to do this. You should have your feet here, and then you should be doing this, and then you should, you know, squeeze this hand and then raise this hand. And I'm so, like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know, and every time I'd hit the ground, and finally, I just kind of threw the. The manual. Like, Top Gun just dropped the F18 manual in the trash. One of my favorite scenes. And. And he. Yeah, I just like, you know what? I'm just going to stay on this horse. It's going to look messy. I don't care. I'm going to. I'm just going to stay on this horse. And it. I didn't do it right. It didn't look all pretty. Like the. The NFR in December on espn. It was the National Finals Rodeo. It was. It was rough, but I got to the buzzer and things started slowing down. And then, you know, after a while, I start getting more in, more time with the horse. And now I'm spurring and doing the stuff I'm supposed to do. So I had to be willing to do it wrong or bad or whatever, you know, throw the judgment out the window. But I think that's the lesson. And I think with leadership today and leadership development, that's why I wanted to come back to you and hear how the Navy thinks about this. I'm sure it's always changing, but there's just this. I'm in rooms a lot, and the question is, how are we going to develop our leaders? We don't have that next level of leadership coming up. And I'm looking around the room and all the executive team, I mean, they grew up at this company. Between you, me, and them, they failed countless times, hit the ground, had to get up, figure this out. But now it's this next level. It's really hard to let other people fail. And we don't. We're so quick to jump in and rescue. We don't let them hit the ground. And then we wonder, well, why aren't they stepping up? Why aren't they learning? Why aren't they growing? They're not. They don't feel the weight of the responsibility that you once did. And that's where growth happens. And for people to grow, we have to put people in the arena. We have to ask more of them. And as a leadership coach outside of eos, I also do workshops for leaders to develop them. And my job, I tell them all the time, is not to teach them leadership, as I don't think I can, but it's to create an environment where leadership can be learned. And the only way I know to do that is. Is through coaching and through asking more of them and getting them to dig deeper and learning to trust themselves. Because most leadership training today, I don't know, it puts us in our head, like, oh, what we leave a lot of leadership workshops with? Oh, yeah, I should have more empathy. Oh, God, I need to work on my emotional intelligence. We hit ourselves over the head with this stuff, like, oh, I need to be better. But I think we need to learn to trust ourselves. And that's the whole purpose behind the book, is because I start working with leaders and they've gone through all these trainings, and they just. They're so tangled up in what's the right way for me to navigate this challenging situation in the business. And it's kind of. I always laugh because it's like, there is no right way. You know, how. Like, we know how complex business is. And it's like you. The only way is your way. You gotta, you gotta have something to stand on that's yours, that you can set some intentions from that place. Otherwise you're just reacting to everybody else's agenda and trying to do, quote, unquote, leadership on people. And it just kind of comes across kind of wonky and forced.
- [13:29]
B
And I'm going to get back to a couple things you said because, like, they just resonate so hard. Like there were so many just like coin terms in there. Like you were like, you got to let people hit the ground and holy crap like that. Like, we could put that in. In so many different, in so many different places. What it. We'll come back to some of that. You just said something though, that's, that's important, which is like this idea that, like, leaders are wondering why that the. Whether it's the next generation, the next level. However they're looking at it, the people that are supposed to step up aren't stepping up. And then you talked about this idea that like, but these are the same leaders that will not let their people fail. And I think the heart of what you've been talking about now is, is this idea that like, failure, facing adversity, building that resilience, learning through doing is one of the critical steps to being able to build a leader. Yet leaders today are not, I don't want to say tolerating or allowing. They're not creating an environment in which there is a safe space to fail. So why aren't we letting them fail?
- [14:34]
A
Well, it's not easy because the stakes feel so high. I mean, the business is growing, there's more people involved, there's the economy. The stakes just feel higher than ever. And that's always true. Like, I can't say, like, no matter, any point in time, the stakes feel as high as they can be, but just wait, they'll get higher, you know, And I think that when we feel that pressure, and this isn't just founders and the, the leadership team, I think this is all leaders that feel pressure. Something I'm uncovering in the writing of my book is something I'm now calling the bridled leader trap, where we tend to fall into one of four modes as leaders. And I call it the bridal leader trap. You know, bridal is the thing that goes on a horse. It's the bit the rider uses it to control it. And these four modes, the first one is servant mode. So a lot of the times when we're at our best, we're serving, giving. You know, we've been Taught that the best leaders are servants. And so we take that on and we serve and we give, but it's not long until we're like, gosh darn it, if it's going to be done right, I got to do it. Now we move into controller mode and we grip the wheel and we tighten our grip and we make sure things happen, and we just kind of feel like it has to be us. Nobody else can do it, but we do that for so long, we start to feel. I don't hate to use a buzzword called burnout, but we start to feel burnout and overwhelmed. And now we move into victim mode. Like, God, why can't. Oh, God, I'm tired and overwhelmed. Why can't anybody else do this? And how much longer can I do, you know, Victim mode? But that's exhausting, too. We don't stay there. We move back into rationalizer mode, where we oftentimes come up with a story around, well, it is what it is. They're doing their best. I'm doing my best. Times are just tough right now, and that kind of puts us back on the horse and we get back to serving for a while until controller mode, and we just cycle through these four modes and what we're not doing. If you really look at all four of these modes, they're very reactive to the circumstance and life is happening to us. And I really love to. The reason my book's called Unbridled is because we need to learn to unbridle ourselves from these stories and these rules and these fears and these cultural norms that kind of keep us locked into what we think we're supposed to do as leaders, so. So that we can discover who we truly are. Unbridled and move more into a creative space where instead of constantly getting all caught up about busy problem solving, which we can solve problems all day long, but not be any closer to creating the vision we actually want in our companies. And so how to think differently, where we can kind of transcend all that stuff and get focused on what is it that we want to create, what would have to be true for that to happen. And. And. And kind of discard the question of how. It's not a question of how. It's just what is the next step. Like, you can't take. You have to take a step for your next step to emerge. And it's just building a business and growing a business is such an emergent unfolding process. I always scratch my head when I get around people that think they know how to do it, because it's like, well, I don't know. I don't know if you really know how. I think in the past something worked. Now you think you know how. But honestly, I'd rather be more of a creative mind where it's like, I don't know. Let's, let's figure this out. Let's experiment, let's, let's use our intuition, let's ask others, but let's learn and grow. And that's always stepping into the land of uncertainty. That's not as systematic as some of us want to make it sound. It's a wild ride. It's a wild ride.
- [18:17]
B
Well, and like, let's, let's talk about those different modes because this is a really interesting topic. Like, is your belief. Because you talked about, you talked about the different modes and then kind of pushing it down to a creative mode and becoming unbridled and really starting to. It's almost like a vulnerability or coming from a place of like, hey, I've had some experiences, I've got some lessons learned, but at the end of the day, like, I don't know, everything and every situation, every environment is always going to be different. A lot of times somebody people will ask me like, hey, if you could do one thing different, like what would you do different in the past? And I like, the reality is there are so many micro conditions and moments and decisions that are made that like, adjust the universe that you have no idea what would have happened if like, that one thing that you did, you did differently. What are all the things that come after that? So it's like, I love the idea of approaching every problem with a fresh perspective and a certain amount of like, naitivity to be like, hey, we're going to figure this out together and we're going to bring all of our experience and diversity of thought. You talked about going down into the creative mode. Is, is your argument here that the, all of these modes exist for leaders? But the real idea here is like, you should always be in creative mode or do you think you should constantly be cycling?
- [19:38]
A
I think it's consciously like if you're, yeah, there's a time and place to be in controller mode. You know, there's a time and place to even be in victim mode. Like honestly, like if you're, if you just lost your business or you, you know, and you had to lay off half your, you should. It's okay to grieve and feel bad and it wouldn't probably be healthy to just ignore that, you know, but we're there consciously like. And what often happens, though, it's more of a knee jerk reaction. Stress is high. Oh, I default down to controller mode, spiral into victim mode. But then I never really grow beyond it because I too quickly rationalize or justify why things are the way they are and we don't move beyond it. And all of that happens unconsciously. It's just happening to. It's because it's how we've learned to deal with life. We've been taught to do that in many ways. That's that transition we make. Right. What got us here won't get us there. We earned our. We built our business through hard work, grit and hustle. And at some point that very thing that allowed us to get to where we are is the very thing that's going to prevent us from letting go and growing a much bigger company and building a team around us of high performing leaders. So I think that's probably where I'm spending most of my time is where leaders are in that transition point where yeah, that, that type of response to situations most might have allowed you to be the firefighter, the fixer. At one point the business really needed that, but now the business needs a different type of leader. And that's, it's a, it's a, it's a more demanding position. No question.
- [21:15]
B
It's not easy when you say different leader. Like, I don't know why, but my mind immediately went to like a different human and the premise there might have been like showing up differently. It might have been like entering a different mode. How or when do you get to a point where like, I'm not the right person here and, and that type of self reflection.
- [21:35]
A
That's an interesting question. Like I'm not the right person here. I think we're all wrestling with am I the right person? Right. I think there's this, I mean I, I've kind of come to peace with the yeah, that ain't going away. Like, I am, I'm questioning, like, am I the right person to be on Ryan's podcast? Right. I don't know. Like I'm either. Can I really do this? Am I good enough? It's never going away. And so your question of like, am I the right person to do this? I think that question gets asked and then it kind of has this final answer, yes or no. And if it's no, maybe I should just lower my expectations and I'm like, no, maybe the answer is no, you are not being the right person. But who you're being matters. And you can start to ask yourself, well, who am I being? Is it who I want to be? Is it the being that's going to serve the organization the most? And it's the most powerful question we can ask ourselves as leaders is who do I need to be to achieve the desired outcomes and the vision? What is this business saying I need to be like, starting to evolve? Because I think that I have a hard time writing people off and saying, yeah, you're not probably the right person. It's more of a you're not being the right person. But let's look at that. Let's change it. Let's. Yeah. So I don't know if I answered your question, but yeah, it is a very important that who am I being? Question is very critical.
- [22:59]
B
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds, if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow yourself sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired. So we've learned a lot about, about riding horses. But like you're, it didn't stop there. It's, it's incredible because we're already, we're like 23 minutes into this already and we haven't even moved past the, the because like your story gets even more interesting because you eventually, I don't know, do you put, do you put cowboy boots on the shelf? Like where, where do you put them?
- [24:44]
A
I don't know where I put them.
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B
We'll put them in the closet.
- [24:46]
A
We'll put them in the closet. Because I. Yeah, because I think when we were talking, when we first started connecting. So growing up, that's why I had rodeo cowboy stuff, right? And by the time I was 34, though, I'm wearing a Brooks Brothers suit with Allen Edmonds shoes. I'm a vice president of sales at a $300 million logistics company. You know, like. Like, what happened to the cowboy kid? You know, total 180, living in the city. I didn't even own a pair of cowboy boots, to be honest, back then, you know, when I was the vice president. And one day, my CEO texted me and asked if I could meet him at the country club. And I'm like, sure. You know, and I'm there. And we're not even through our first bourbon. And he's like, zach, I'm gonna make some changes to the company. You know, we're growing. And I'm. And I'm like, yeah, of course. Whatever you need, boss. You know, like, I'm. I'm. I'm up for anything. And he's like, well, we're going to move you back down into sales. And I'm like, wait a minute, like, you're demoting me. You know, I'm back down to sales. And I'm like, what the. And then the next day, he comes in my office. He's like, hey, come on out here. I want to introduce you to Michael, my new boss, the new VP of sales, you know, and he basically, right before he walks off, he just slaps me on the back and tells Michael. He's like, zach here will get you up to speed. I'm thinking, like, what the. And, like, what is it with me? Like, I could grow the company. You know, when I started, we were 30 million. We grew to 150 million and had a goal to get to 500 million. And apparently, you know, in that moment, I'm like, who am I? Am I not good enough to continue to help the company grow? But looking back, I wasn't. In fact, my new boss, Michael, was a much more veteran executive. He came from a pharmaceutical organization, like, very large organization. And over a beer, I think it was a day after I introduced him to my team. It was now going to be his team. And I, you know, introduced him to our top clients. But over a beer, he's like, zach, you were set up to fail. Like, the company should have never put you in a position to go hire all those green salespeople and try to Train them. Like, you've been a good soldier, I'll give you that. But that's not leadership. And, you know, frankly, that initially it kind of pissed me off because, like, on paper, I'm a leader. I've been a vice president for four years. We grew, you know, like, pretty damn good vp, I guess, you know? But he was totally right, because looking back, I was reacting to everybody else's agenda. I was trying to live up to everybody else's expectations. And frankly, it's just not leadership. And that's what Michael was trying to show me is like, leadership isn't about getting it done. At that level I was at, that was not what the organization needed from me, but that's all I ever knew to do. So if you were to ask me, there was nothing more I could have done. I was working my tail off, but it required a different type of leader. And again, I didn't learn that until I hit the ground. And that stung when Michael shared that with me. And it's not that I. It's like, oh, okay, I'll do that. It's like, no. It took another probably several years for me to finally be like, oh, my God. And now working with leadership teams in the EOS community and coaching, it's hard for me not to see it, that bridal leader trap, because that's where I was. I was in that cycle of serving, controlling, fixing, and then quietly being the victim, bitching and complaining. I had to work on the weekend. I was the martyr that was always bragging, like, I got to work the weekend, and that's not leadership. And that's why I'm just really passionate about helping people step out of that and get more into a creative arena so that we can really go to work on creating the outcomes we want for ourselves, our team, our companies.
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B
Yeah, I'll compliment you, and then I'll ask you a tough question. Your ability to move down in an organization and take a demotion like you did, I think, speaks volumes about your character and who you are as a human. I've been in many situations as a. As a business leader, because, like, what happens in hypergrowth companies. And I haven't had a company that's gone from 30 to 150. I've had a company that's gone from 0 to 50. And we've done that. We did that over, like, six years. And when companies are growing as fast as what we're talking about right now, the amount of leveling up that needs to happen internally is like blazing speed. And So I found myself always having tough conversations with people. And I had this, this amazing human being that we brought in initially when we were 5ish million, maybe, maybe 3 million as a VP of operations. Well, the next year we were 12 million. The next year we were 25 million. Next year we were 50 million. And like, what it takes to be a VP of operations, shipping out 10,000 subscriptions a month versus 150,000 subscriptions a month. That's a completely different skill set, experience, expertise. Now we're broken into like different things. And like, he's also an example that, that took it like a champ. And it was like, hey, we're growing very fast. Got to put you over here. And I'm sure there was a lot of, there was a lot of similar stuff where it's like, you know, it smiles on the outside inside. Like we all have ego to a certain extent if we're in business and it doesn't have to be bad ego, but like, you know, we have to have a certain amount of confidence to do what we do. So anyhow, one, that is a, that's a compliment because I think it speaks a lot to your character. Two is what is that like, meaning that, like, there are people that I haven't been able to do that because I knew if I did that they wouldn't be able to reintegrate. They would not be able to reintegrate at a level of people that they led or managed and now become a peer. And so outside of the emotional side of that, like, what was that like being demoted and your subordinates are now your peers.
- [30:31]
A
It's so much to unpack there. And I'm trying to where to begin because all of that, like, I was angry, confused, and yeah, there was a moment where I'm dusting off the resume, like, I'm going to go get a VP job somewhere else. Screw you guys. You know, all of that went through, all of it. But I was fortunate enough to have a coach. I'd been working with, an executive coach for several years leading up to that. And a coach, my coach, his. He never, he wasn't consulting me or advising me. He never told me what to do. He was there to challenge me to own my decisions, you know, and what I call saddle my own horse. And I remember calling him that the day it happened. On my way home, I'm talking to him and he basically. And he's always like, there's no such thing as failure. It's only an opportunity to learn, to grow. Like, it's Just like this. Like, forward, let's go. You know, and he said something like, great. He's like, your. Your worst fear just happened. Now what's your opportunity? And because my worst fear, because in our private conversations, probably years before, three years before that moment, I was trying to wrestle with decisions, but I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And he finds, like, what are you afraid of, Zach? And he wanted a general. That wasn't a. That was a real question, like, really, what is your deepest worry if you just act on what your intuition's telling you to do? And I just. It came out. I'm like, I'm afraid of losing my spot at the table. I'm afraid of. And so, okay, well, that's. Honestly, looking back, that was guiding every decision I made, trying to avoid losing my spot at the table, which was preventing me from being the leader my organization needed me to be to the point where it came true. And that's what my coach was like, Zach, it happened. You have nothing to be afraid of anymore. Now what's your operation? What do you want to do now? And. And it's kind of like. That sounds kind of cheeky, what I'm saying, but there's probably a lot more context I'm leaving out, but it landed on me. It's like, what do I want to do? That was the biggest. So I'm having. He's asking me, well, what do you want to do next? And I actually wasn't. I was going deep inward with that question, like, what do I really want to do with my life? Like, it was more of a bigger question, like, I'm in my 30s, and it's like. Can't say I was actually enjoying the last three years. It was. Honestly, looking back, it's not what I wanted to be doing. And I knew it all along, but I was so focused on not losing my spot at the table, I couldn't even see that. One more thing. I had a friend that I worked alongside for 11 years at this company, and I called him, told him what happened, and he said, you know, he said something similar. He's like, what if you just focused on you for a while and focused on leading yourself for a while and not rush into having more pressure of leading a team. What if you use this time just to kind of recenter? And that's. Honestly, I just allowed myself to kind of wait. Like, let's just settle in. I know I can hit my quota and be a sales guy. Let's not Rush. And so I just let things stir and I think that's what led me down this path of being a coach because I started listening to that inner question, what do I really want to do? It's not, where do I think I could get a job who could pay me, you know, the salary that I'm at currently. I had to get out of all that crap and just be like, what do I really want to do? And coach. I want to be a leadership coach. And you know, and people ask me all the time, well, how did you make the leap? I'm like, I don't, I have no clue other than I made an internal commitment that that's what I was going to do. And I just started taking the steps. I invested money in coach training. You know, I did those steps and I, I just took the next step. And next thing I know I'm being recruited by one of the largest industrial developers in the US here in Kansas City. They needed an internal coach, which happened to be. They needed an internal EOS implementer. They, they were working with Deborah here in Kansas City, she's an expert implementer and they needed Some, they had 11 operating companies. I didn't know what EOS even was. I read the book Traction the night before the interview and you know, I got the job and, and then the pandemic happened and so my first day was the first day of lockdown and so I had this opportunity. So I didn't go in the office, I locked myself in my home office and I watched the videos, you know, the self implementer videos, and I in front of a whiteboard, you know, role playing, you know, and I taught myself EOS during the pandemic. And then about a month in I started doing sessions, you know, and that's where kind of had, that was my next. I'd been coaching for about a year and a half prior to that. Now I'm starting to facilitate EOS and eventually got certified and, and two years ago I stepped away full time to be an EOS implementer. I also do keynote speaking and coaching and do several things. But it all. EOS holds a closest spot to my heart because it was a huge catalyst for moving me out of VP of Sales into doing what I love today.
- [35:42]
B
I love it. We have a similar background. EOS also changed my life. Vistage plus EOS was just a game changer for things that were going on in my life at the time. I want to take us back just a hair and I do want to get into the stuff you're doing today because it's incredible stuff and, and the book and, and the theories, the models, the philosophy, I love it. And how you're translating all of this stuff from the things that, that you learned when you were, when you were riding horses at the rodeo. So one of the things you talked about was about a year into the job with your coach, some of the conversations that you were having were like, what's your biggest fear? Well, this is my biggest fear. And it was like, it was almost an idea of like the decisions, maybe the thought process, other things you were doing were now fear based. It was like, what do I have to lose? Instead of like what can I gain? Was there anything that you could have done back then? Like if you would have read the book that you're, you're writing right now or your coach would have been like, hey, stop with this fear based stuff. Like just go, go kill it. Would anything have changed there? Or is like this something like you have to live. And we go back to some of that Navy training where it's like, there's a lot of training and it's great, but it also takes time to develop humans. And so kind of where, where are you on that spectrum?
- [37:06]
A
I'm in the messy middle because I see truth in both of the sides that you're sharing because sometimes pain creates change and we just can't see it until we hit the ground. So I, I, I don't want to say like, no, there's this eight step process if you follow it, you know, no, I'm not going there. But I do think looking back and this is really real for me as I'm writing the book, it's like, yeah, because I have time to really kind of unpack this stuff. And the one thing that I was doing the most in everything I was doing was, well, I'm going to get, I've never shared this in the book I talk about, we have an inner horse and an inner rider. It's in the horse world. And you know horses, they've been around 50 million years. They, they're like the most instinctual animal animals, like powerful, beautiful, like survivors, super fast, very sensitive and very empathetic. They can read the facial expressions of a human and adjust their behavior like that. And so we have that, we have that same intuition, right? We do instinct in our DNA too. So we all have an inner horse, but we also have an inner rider. And the rider is where all the goals and direction you need both because with just the horse we wouldn't have direction. The rider provides direction. And yet there's two types of riders. There's the fearful rider, and then there's the true horseman, the true equestrian. And I was the fearful rider. And when you have a fearful rider on a horse, they're pulling on the reins, not letting the horse run. They're tight. They're, you know, kind of that raise, high lift principle. And so what I was doing as a VP was I was the fearful rider, not trusting the horse. Instead, I was so cued in on my outside environment. What do. What do I think they want me to say, right? You know, I'm in an executive meeting with my CEO, and it's like, what. What does he want to hear right from me? You know? And so I was running every decision I made through what I thought they expected of me. And it was this outside in perspective. And that's the broader leader trap. And that's what I couldn't be, the type of leader the organization needed. I had to learn to lead from the inside out, trusting the inner horse. And that's what a true horseman is. I mean, they say of, like, the best horsemen, they, like, merge with the horse. They're one entity, and it's beautiful. And, um, but they're. They're. They're willing, they're secure in themselves, and they're owning who they are. And I wasn't owning who I was. I was afraid of losing my spot at the table, and that was driving so much of my behavior. So looking back, it was the work change when I started discovering my own character and values, my own leadership philosophy. And I started asking the question, what do I think is the next step versus what do I think they think is the best next step? And I should just do what they think, you know, And I, gosh, in EOS rooms, I see so many leadership teams still. Like, they're one out of the corner of their eye. They're watching the CEO, and I'm like, oh, I just see it. I can see it because I can see myself in them, you know, and it's like, oh, yeah, I'm familiar with that. But. And that's what I love about EOS is the accountability chart. And, you know, who owns this issue and kind of quieting the room down and honing in on the leader that actually owns it and let them answer for it. Magic happens because people start to learn to trust themselves. And it's. That's what we all need to learn as leaders, is to own who we are and not. Not stop questioning it.
- [40:45]
B
This is fascinating stuff. And I, when I read books and I'm like, how did, how did this person like think about this or how did they connect the dots? Like how did you get to this space? Because these are, these are like deep, meaningful and incredibly insightful concepts that you have like put together and, and you've made it digestible and you've drawn correlations. Like at what point did you sit down and you're like, hey, you know what? I'm going to be, I'm going to be an amazing speaker. I'm going to be an author and I'm going to start sharing this. I'm going to do the coaching and the eos stuff like was it self reflection? Was it. You just took time. How does this stuff come together?
- [41:24]
A
There's something about the sales profession, right, Your butts on the line every day and you know, it's, it's, it's your muscle to develop and grow. And I think that got me reading books at a really young age, you know, understanding if I can grow and get better at my. Who I'm being, I can make more money. You know, just. That wasn't why I did. I wanted to. I, I was part of a small company that the more we grew, the more we could hire people. And that was what I was passionate about. Always is like building a team. And so I saw sales as a vehicle to build a team. But that put pressure on me to get better at the craft of connecting with people. And so that set me down a path of just I think that growth, mindset, learning books. And you know, somewhere along the way though, I read a lot less how to self help books and I started reading more philosophy and, or even psychology. Carl Jung or I. A lot of what I've gleaned from is Warner Earhart and his work with EST back in the 80s, some Zen philosophy. There's just so much to be learned from that. Some of the Eastern mindset. So for sure there's a lot of influence there. I mean I've read a lot and then I worked with some. I've been, I've worked with a coach for years. And so working with a coach has a way of putting you on a path of your own self introspection. And I think that's where a lot like when you learn to go within yourself and start to ask yourself questions, which sounds you're kind of asking your inner horse, you know, you're kind of asking that inner world what's important to you, what do you want? And learning to listen to the desires. Because I think that I'm with a lot of leaders today. And the word selfishness. I was leading workshop and we were talking about giving feedback or something, and we were role playing. This woman and I are in front of the room and she's got this employee that's not doing something the way to the level the business needs, and she's got to have a hard conversation. And I'm just asking her about it and she just basically says. She says something really powerful and clear and direct. I'm like, well, just say that. And she's like, well, I can't say that. That would be selfish. Because she's basically said it doesn't work for me. You know, that you show up this way and you're not organized, whatever it was. But she kind of just was pissed in the moment with me because she felt comfortable and she's just like, it doesn't work for me. And she just. It was so clear. And that's how it always happens. I'm like, if, if the clients that I work with could hear themselves back, like, they're so articulate, they're so clear. And I always want to just say, like, just say that, but we can't because, oh, that would be selfish. And so I gave her permission to like, well, just be selfish for the next five minutes. What would you say if you're being absolutely selfish? And she said it so well. And then she looked at me and she knew, she smiled. She's like, yeah, like, this is just. This isn't about how to give feedback. It's called being honest, trusting. And I think that's that whole selfish thing, you know, the servant leadership thing, which I very. I appreciate where it's coming from, like, the original intent. But like anything in leadership, we take a really good idea and then we make it gospel. We make it into something and we make it the answer to everything. And, and we, we lose the art of leadership. And I think some of that's happened with this word servant leader. I think we've. We've gone too into the. Like, we. We're selfless and we don't think of our. I, like, I spent a lot of time helping leaders get more selfish with a capital S. Because my questions I asked him is like, well, what's important to you? What do you think is the next step? What do you see as the possibility? Every question has the common denominator of you in it, and that's drawing people back to themselves. I think is a critical lesson in leadership because that is nobody's coming, it's you. So we need to learn to trust that.
- [45:20]
B
One of the things that I've seen that's. I'm going to say the session room. When I say session room, I really just mean the rooms that I've been in because they were, they were my companies. But one of the things that happens in the session room is this idea of like offering candid feedback to people. Like, if you could, for the greater good of the organization, Ryan, if you could start or stop, you know, one thing today, this is. This is what you need to start doing. This is what you need to stop doing. And I love that moment when, when the spotlight is on me. I love it because now I can take notes and say, I can change this, I can change this, I can change this. And so I love getting critical feedback because it gives me an opportunity to improve when I'm giving feedback. It is the hardest thing for me to do in that moment. And what I have found is that there's many people out there that they just want the feedback, the honesty, and they're not going to take offense to it. They want to know how they can improve. They want to know the things that they can do to become a better version of themselves. But it's like the giving it where you would think it's the receiving it. Oh, like I'm insulted by this, but like, I found it's the actual giving. Have you had any breakthroughs in that area?
- [46:32]
A
Yes. And in the session room, right when people do. And I'm sure once you that start, stop, like I would like you to start or I would like you to stop starting the sentence like that. What I love most about that Exercise is the AHA's people have and how easy it is to communicate. What, like, because when you share something like that, I get that probably leading up to it, you're like, uncomfortable. But in the moment, I'm curious, honestly, what. How is it like when you're actually saying, I would like you to start or stop, and it comes out and it's not. That's not. That's the easy part. Something that I have noticed and this is, I'm getting to my point. I'm taking a while to get to this one. But so often in leadership context, we use words like we and you, you know, and, and so, for example, I'm, I'm speaking at this event and it's a room full of executives and the CEO volunteers to come up to the stage and we're doing some hot seat coaching And. And his. His issue is, you know, the more we grow, the more I'm afraid we're gonna lose our culture. And I'm like, okay. And he just keeps saying, like, you know, we're gonna lose our culture if we keep growing. I'm afraid we're gonna lose our culture. And I'm like, okay, I hear you. What? And I just asked him, what. What have you been doing about it? Like, that sounds important to you? And he's like, well, just. Just this last week, I got in front of my team, I told him how we need to. We need to be the ones that protect this culture. And you guys are the ones that, you know, the culture is going to be based on who you hire and who you don't hire. And we need to. And you need to, you know. And I'm like, okay. And I go, I'm still curious what's so important to you about not losing the culture? And he got really quiet. And then he said, my dad started this company 50 years ago, and we've always had a reputation for taking care of people and putting people ahead of profits. And it's really important to me that we carry his legacy forward. And I'm like, the whole room, it's just like, did y' all hear what I just heard? Because a real person just showed up, you know, and, like, that's gonna speak volumes compared to the rah, rah, we and you stuff. And this comes right back to the feedback. You know, the. I would like you to start or stop. The reason it works so well is because you're just sharing your perspective. We get ourselves in trouble when we use words like we and you and give feedback. Because now I'm going to get defensive. Why? I don't know if that's true for me, but. But we're all have a perspective. And so what I spend a lot of time teaching leaders to do is just share your perspective and own it. Saddle your own horse, own it. Stop this we and you crap, because it's not effective. I don't know. I would be curious what you think of it, because it seems to be helpful, but I'm curious how you're hearing it in the context you shared, you know, your challenge.
- [49:27]
B
I think I've gotten better. So the. The problem is I haven't been in, like, a true session room with an EOS implementer for quite some time. It's probably like two years now since. All that stuff. All that stuff. I just. I remember it always being uncomfortable. I. I'll report back Because a lot of the things that we've talked about today, I think can help with some of those moments. Like it's, it's about sharing your perspective and, and owning it. And so funny, when you were just talking about we. Everything I do, I, like, I'll be talking to my wife and talking about the, the business. I'm like, yeah, we're doing this and we're doing that, and it's like I constantly do that. So I also really, really enjoyed the feedback there where it's like, you know, maybe be more direct and use eyes and just get real. It sounds like some of those moments that you've had during your speaking engagements. The one thing, and I want to make sure we have a little bit of time for this. Like, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but you're doing a lot of things right now, so. So bring us up to speed on like, what you're up to now, the type of clients that you work with and what you're looking for.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah. So for the last four or five years now, I've been an EOS implementer, you know, and I have. I always have about 10 to 12 clients. Some. Some graduate and then a new one rolls on. But in addition to that, I, I'm a keynote speaker. So I get asked to speak it, you know, the opening or closing keynote for maybe it's an association meeting or a company leadership summit or sales conference. But then I'm really leaning into. With this book, Unbridled, I. I've designed a workshop called the Unbridled Leadership Workshop, and where we really go deep into these concepts and we teach leaders how to. What I call saddle their own horse. The subtle art of leading yourself so you can lead others, which is really about true accountability. And, and with that, I do an event twice a year in Kansas City called Saddle Up Live. The third, third round is the dates have been announced. I don't know when this will come out, but it's September 26th. We're doing it the Crossroads Hotel, which is a beautiful hotel downtown Kansas City. And it's a full day of, of this. And what were kind of these concepts and really, companies will send their leaders, you know, groups of three to four leaders. And what I love about the day is it puts people in the arena of their own lives. And this is how I do everything. I'm not here to teach you how to do leadership or here's how you should have a con, how to have a difficult conversation. It's more or less I teach leaders to Ask themselves, what am I tolerating? And actually be with that. What's not working for me? What would I like to have be different? But then instead of blaming, the second question is, well, how might I be contributing to this thing? I say, I don't want, because that's where we start to saddle our own horse, which is. I did a TED Talk on this topic last year, which is all about personal responsibility, because when we do that, that's the foundation we have to own our part before we're ready to go approach anybody else. And so that's that sharing from our perspective, like, starting from your perspective and starting from a place of ownership. And so that's ultimately what I teach leaders. And so when you have that, you have a kind of a compass to operate from, to guide your leadership decisions so that you can lead yourself, so that you can show up ready to guide and direct the. The team in the direction that we all want to go, which is always a collective and collaborative decision. So, yeah, I probably still didn't hit all the things I'm doing and writing a book, but that's. Everything I do is kind of in that vein of teaching people personal responsibility. And really what that is, it's the most. This idea of nobody's coming is the most empowering thought. I love it. I love telling leadership teams, nobody's coming, like, you're it. Because now we get to, like, own our seat. And we. Yeah. And I. I just like that. I like that. I find it very empowering.
- [53:46]
B
Awesome. No one's coming. I. I love that. Like, I. I've heard, like, no one cares. Like, it. The. The. The thing. And as an entrepreneur, like, the thing that's always kind of scary to me is like, no one's coming. Like, like, if you just stop doing what you're doing, like, the phones aren't ringing themselves and the. The things aren't moving. Pieces aren't moving. Like, the only. The only way things are going to change or things are going to improve or things are going to grow is, like, if you do those things that are required. I love that. I love that so much. What? Okay, Someone's been listening to this, and they're like, holy crap, Zach is an amazing human being, which we would obviously share that. That opinion. And they're like, I either want him to come speak for me. I want to talk to him about more about eos. I want a free book from him, and I want to. I want him to sign it.
- [54:36]
A
We.
- [54:36]
B
Whatever the case is, how can someone get ahold of you?
- [54:38]
A
Well, I'm on LinkedIn, my website, but the best way to get plugged into me is I have a free resource called get in the Arena. It's a toolkit. So there's some tools to some of the stuff we've been talking about, some questions and some, some assessments, some things that I think your listeners would find helpful, and that's where I would start, is to download that, that that gets them added to my weekly ish newsletter digest. I call it the Saddle Up Digest, where I just share leadership principles and practices. To get that, they could go to Zacharyn.com forward/toolkit. So that's Z A C-H- A R E N D.com forward slash toolkit. But I would check that out. That'd be a great place to start.
- [55:18]
B
Awesome. Zach, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. I knew this was going to be a great conversation, like especially from our green room talk or whatever they call it. But thank you so much for taking the time to come on and share your story, your wisdom, all your lessons learned, and most importantly, be vulnerable because I think that really kind of helps show people that you've experienced this. So thank you.
- [55:40]
A
Well, thanks for having me on, Ryan. It was a pleasure.