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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer, a podcast by Talent Harbor. We share unique stories of implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and the challenges of the system in action. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. Let's jump in. Welcome to another episode of Confessions of an Implementer, brought to you by Talent Harbor. Today I am excited to welcome Mike Ruley, a lifelong entrepreneur who's not only founded and scaled multiple businesses, but also mastered the art of transforming organizations using the entrepreneurial operating system, or eos. Growing up in an entrepreneurial family, Mike learned the essentials of business management early on, which he leveraged to build his own ventures. His second business venture impressively grew from the ground to 30 million in volume, establishing itself as a national top 25 company, which he later sold after two successful decades. And we dig into all of this because that was his second company, and so he had a first company right out of college with different partners. And we talk about the challenges of partnerships and the things to look out for out of the gate and ways to be able to understand do your core values align with the people that you're getting into business with? And does the vision also align? And so there's two things there. It's one, is there a general alignment on the actions that we're going to take and the decisions that we're going to make? Kind of those guardrails or guiding principles? Then the second part is, are we all on the same page of where we're taking this? And some interesting things that Mike talked about during our conversation is life happens, and sometimes things get in the way. And so the goal initially might have been to go to the moon with a certain company, but sometimes life has a way of telling us otherwise and things change. But if everybody is aligned on their core values, then those candid conversations and understanding and figuring out ways to move forward can happen. So we had an incredible conversation that we ended with ego. We ended with, what is ego? Is ego good or is ego bad? Because we talk a lot in business about ego is bad and ego. Generally, you think about egotistical people as assholes. And so what is ego? And is there a good ego? And Mike really goes deep into that. We had an awesome conversation. It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy. And as always, thanks so much for listening. Today we've got Mike, certified EOS implementer. Mike, thank you so much for taking an hour out of your day to join Confessions of an Implement Mentor. You and I had a conversation probably about maybe six, seven weeks ago. And your background has a lot of really interesting things. And one of the things that came up was you grew up in an entrepreneurial household. And one of the things that I was thinking about was how did those experiences, how did those observations you talked about, the idea of like this was kind of ingrained in your DNA. How did this shape your perspective for the pursuits in business that you did and the different trajectories that you went on throughout your life?
- [03:19]
B
Well, first of all, thanks Ryan, for having me on today. This is fun stuff. I love talking about this stuff. So I grew up in a family with six kids in the family. My dad had a business and we worked in the business. And so I always feel like I had this like front row seat to the rigors of someone owning a business. All the ups and downs. It was a successful business. But I do recall as a kid just the good times and the bad times. And of course I didn't have any appreciation for how really difficult it was because I was a kid. But as I got older, I knew I wanted to be a business, an entrepreneur. And I don't know, I firmly believe people are born that way. I don't know how many are created. I think it's kind of in your DNA. It was certainly in my dad's. All five of my siblings never had that DNA whatsoever. They all worked at large companies and government and had successful careers in that way. I always joked that the only really good decision ever made under the age of 25 was realizing that I don't think I would survive well in a big structured bureaucratic organization. I wanted to control my own destiny. And so as soon as I gotten out of college, I decided I'm going to be in business. And I did that. I jumped into a business with some partners of all things. And I course went in as a, whatever, 23 year old, blind and giving it my best shot and the business actually did fine. But I learned a lot about partners and the culture of an organization and how difficult it really is when you don't have people aligned. And it's all about the people, right? I thought it was just about the mechanics of the business, but it's more about the people than anything else. So learn some valuable lessons from that. I left that business in advance. We prepared us about two and a half years and I decided to separate from that business and go off on my own. So I literally left the business on a Friday and started my next one. Same business, but just on my own on A Monday following Monday. And I had that business for around 20 years until I sold it. And along the way, still, even though I had the experience of growing up in a family business, I still of course made all those same mistakes and much the ups and downs, you know, just, just not that bright of a guy, if you get to know me well. So I had to navigate all my difficult issues. And of course that's how I happened to fall into eos, because I had a business coach that eventually became an EOS implementer and implemented for us. And that's kind of where I had that life changing that really helped our business. And of course that's what fueled me to becoming an EOS implementer. So to answer your question in a brief, there's something in my DNA. I just can't think of doing anything else than building, creating, doing things, bringing people together. And my dad had it and we were very close and tight and so we talked about it constantly. And so I really could do nothing else. I was trapped in being an entrepreneur. And that's a blessing and a curse sometimes, but that's just how we entrepreneurs, I think are.
- [06:15]
A
Bill and how long were you in the first business where you had several partners?
- [06:20]
B
Probably about two and a half years. And I think it was sort of supposed to be a three year commitment, but I literally couldn't take it anymore. I said, I have to separate. This is just, you know, and it was just cultural things. It was core value issues. It just was. They just felt they ran a business differently than I would ever dream of running it as far as the people and customers were concerned. So we just parted ways based on me being a young guy and thinking differently.
- [06:45]
A
And that's a very kind of prevalent topic. And I also have a community that I put together about maybe about four years ago now called Creators Combine. And we bring a whole bunch of consumer product operators together. And both there and having conversations like this, one of the things that constantly comes up is partnerships and like how key it is to that alignment and understanding of values or things just blow apart. Like when you look back at that time, are there, are there things that you would have before getting into business that you would have asked that you would have went deeper on? How can you start to understand before you go head first into some sort of partnership? How can we understand if this is the right partnership for us?
- [07:29]
B
Well, if I knew then what I know now, I would have never done this partnership. And it's not like it was disastrous or anything, it's just that you Just don't know what you don't know when you're 20 some years old. And all my goal was, was to be in business because I don't want to go work in some big place because what I know it'll happen. I studied finance. I'm going to go get stuck in a cubicle somewhere and I'm never going to get out of there. And that was my thinking. So I said, I just need to be in business, and this was my best opportunity. So I did it. Regardless of all the things you just mentioned, I never really considered any of that. Of course, I don't know how I would because I had no experience of it. But there's two kinds of things that I would consider. First of all, yes, there has to be a similar value system. So if you and I decided to go into business together, I'd want to make sure that you and I really share the same core value system. And mind you, if they're different, it doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong, or I'm wrong and you're right, or you're a bad person and I'm not. It just means we think differently about things, how we view the world and how we view our value system. But that would be first and foremost, number one. I would say once you get a good match on that, it's probably unlikely to change because people's value systems kind of stick with them. You know, how you're built at a certain age, that's pretty much how you're going to live. But the second part is a little trickier because when you get into partners, because it involves what you want from the business, and we may start off by saying, hey, let's start a donut business and we'll get a donut store. And lo and behold, we're doing great and our store is doing wonderful. And then one day I say, well, let's open another one. And you say, yeah, that's a good idea, too. And we open two. And pretty soon maybe let's say I'm happy with two. And you're thinking, man, let's go national. We'll get a hundred stores. And I don't want to go Nashville. I just like the two. I like a lifestyle business, keep it simple, and we're going to go get investors and really grow this thing. So is any one of us wrong? No, it's just a different path in life we've chosen to take going out. And I think very often partners, especially younger people, they don't Think of that in advance, they just don't. And you're going to grow, you're going to evolve in the business and so am I. And we may evolve in different ways and I want different things from the business. And how do you reconcile that? How do we have a hundred donut stores but only have two? So at that point that's usually where partnerships start to crack and something has to be decided. And hopefully it's not anything horrific. Someone usually buys someone out, but it could cause a lot of consternation and frustration among partners. So those are two things I think that are really critical to partnerships is making sure you have your core values fit and making sure you have at least some sort of long term plan that you're consistent with. And if it's an exit plan and you all see that same plan and you see the same time frame.
- [10:14]
A
I love what you just said because you really broke it into two categories. And it's the values and the ones. And so it's the framework in which we operate. And we think about at the simplest level, like what's right, what's wrong, like what guides us, what motivates us. And all of those things are kind of intertwined. And you talked about once and so making sure that there's alignment of like where we're taking this rocket ship once we actually get it off the ground, unseen things too.
- [10:36]
B
So maybe perhaps you and I are both on the same page. We want to have 100 stores and it's great. And lo and behold, maybe you have a health issue or maybe someone near and dear you, a spouse or a child has health issues or something happens in your personal life that you say, I don't think I can dedicate that kind of time now. My life has taken a turn somewhere else and the hundred stores thing isn't going to work for me. And I'm still 100 stores. So what do we do with that? So even when we do plan, life has a way of planning for us sometimes. And so again, I think that's where the values come back into play. Because if we share the same values, then we're going to work together, not against each other. We're going to work to help each other through, whether it be find a way to do it, find a way to back off, find a way to separate and I buy you out, you buy me out, whatever. There's reasonable minds that are working towards it because we both care about the same things. So all kinds of number of things can happen. It's just a matter of putting as much in place as you can so you don't have those issues.
- [11:36]
A
There's people that I've spoke to when you're putting together a contract that sets the level of expectations and who's responsible for what. And maybe it's the buy sell, maybe it's the operating agreement. It could be a variety of different things. But the thing that I hear very often is this notion of contracts or agreements that are executed are not set up for the happy times, they're set up for the bumpy times. Do you think that, and I'm not saying to go in the absence of a contract and operating agreement or a buy sell, but do you think that they have to be airtight, locked up lawyers going at it? If you share the same values, and the reason I asked that question is you just said something really interesting where truly if two people or three people or however big this partnership is, if there's truly an alignment in values, then anything can be worked out. What's your perspective on that?
- [12:25]
B
That's a really good question and a tough one, but here I'll take a shot at it this way. I would think that if we have really matching value systems, then the contract we agree upon, even if it's in minute detail or whether it's more high level, it's going to be something that you and I both share the same value system for for it. So we want to put a bunch of minute details in there. I'm guessing it's because we both agree that that's a good thing because what if something bad happens? I've always worried about sometimes when people say, well, I don't do contracts, I'm a handshake guy. Sometimes I worry more about that because they don't want to be bound to anything at all. So basically saying as I want any rules of engagement, Ryan with you, I'm going to shake your hand and I can do whatever the heck I want. Well, that doesn't give you much security for your family. So I think obviously having. I do agree, if you get a contract that's 711 pages long, there must be some trust issues there. But I think a reasonable contract that we both feel covers the unknowns because that's what contracts are for, is really to cover the unknowns, the things that we didn't count on, we can both agree to that. Then it's probably written with the same sense of values that we both share. And I doubt there'd be any regrets to it later. It wouldn't be telling us that we don't trust each other. It'd be really telling us that we both care about each other and we want to make sure the other person is protected. Should something go wrong, that would be the best type of contract.
- [13:50]
A
I love it. And when you talk about the shared ideology or shared values, one thing that we do at Talent harbor, so I agree with you 100%. And I think all too often we over index for expertise and performance. And so what we want to know is, have they done it before? And like, when they did it before, what were their marks? Like they do an amazing job or were they kind of sitting on the bench and someone was dragging them along? And I think a lot of businesses like my businesses in the past, we've always looked at performance and not heavy enough on core values. And that's one of the reasons that we started Talent harbor is to give this, like, full person type of interview and we ask a certain standardized questions based upon your core values and to get a better understanding of theirs. When you're trying to understand somebody's core values, what are you looking for? Is this something that, like, you personally, like, you have a set of questions where you can start to really understand, like, well, this is how I think about life or how I see life. And now I'm starting to understand how they see life. Is this like, I need to go on dinners with this person? Is this I need to know this person for three years to understand? How do you actually understand if your core values align with someone else's?
- [14:58]
B
That's a tricky one because I think you answered the question sort of with questions when you ask that, which is, how do you do that? Is it a lot of personal time together? Is it a lot of business time together? Is it how smart and talented I am or skilled I am, or is it more something that comes from the heart? I think it's a combination of both. I tell my teams all the time, I know this sounds squishy and soft, but I would rather have people that I really love and care for, that I work with than have a bunch of talented people. Because you can always get better, you can always learn more, you can always excel. So how do you physically go about doing it? I'd say I'd be pretty nervous about going into business with someone as a partner if I didn't know them well. I mean, you could ask that question in any environment. How long would you date someone before you decided to marry them? Some people say, oh, I met, we got married a week later. I go Full, you know, that's roll the dice. If you've known each other 10 years, I'd say slow learner, I guess. So I think it is very much like a marriage, and there's no perfect marriage and there's no perfect partnership or business. But I think when you have the same value systems, you can get through the differences, you can get through the surprises, you can get through the unknowns in any relationship. And also, I think when you share the same value system, you can talk about things. And when we talk about things, we can solve things, because we can't solve any problem or any challenge without talking about it. And I think when there's a value disconnect, there tends to be less talking. When there's less talking in any environment, it usually festers into other things because we make up stories in our head in the absence of information. I don't know if I answered your question. That was a tough question.
- [16:39]
A
That was good. It was great. And you said after the partnership, you got into your next business. Did you have any partners with that business?
- [16:47]
B
No, it was just me and one assistant. And then we eventually had about. It varied from time to time, but anywhere between 20 and 35 employees. So that business was. I was the primary owner of it. And so I eliminated a lot of that complication because I don't care how you slice it, having a partner, it complicates things a little bit because they have different needs, different wants, and those things change. We're all human beings again. It's like a marriage. You may say, look, I'd like to retire. And maybe your wife says, I don't want to retire. I want to keep working. Well, how do you reconcile that? I want to have five children. We only want to have two. Okay, let's talk about that. These are just needs and wants. And so again, going back to the value system. But when I was on my own, yeah, sure, that part was easy because I'm going to try to take the company where I would like it to go and of course, try to get those who want to join in and join the journey with me. Those are the people I attracted. And obviously, if people thought I was nuts, which many did, then they would not join in the journey and they would go somewhere else where they were happy.
- [17:47]
A
And what's that like? So I've had several businesses with partners, and I've had many less businesses where it was just me. And one thing that I've discovered is I am much worse as a solopreneur. And the reason Is I think I thrive around other people's energy and other people that are just excited. That might be half of the equation. The other half is generally I'm good at things like marketing, BD strategy, bringing people together. And generally I'm pretty bad at things like whatever product or service we're actually developing. And so when it comes to hunt a killer, I have never in my life put together a game. And I had an incredible partner that did that. What was that journey like for you when you went from a couple partners to solopreneur and you're building this thing all on your own? Because it sounds like I get to chase my vision and it's going to be incredible. Was it also isolating at the same time without that type of support?
- [18:40]
B
What a darn good question. Yeah. And I don't want to come off in any way of sounding like I could never be partners with somebody. Just the one time I did it, I was a young man and I just didn't understand that whole relationship thing. I thought it's just about being good at the business. Well, put our heads down and do great. But the reality of it is we just thought differently about it and we never talked about where we were going to go, what we were going to do. We were just a bunch of dudes just trying to get out there and do something. But at my age now, I just take a different approach to it. And I think it's actually great having partners because as you said, you bring in a lot of extra skills and talents and ideas and thoughts, so you're not on your own. I think when you're on your own, if you're not vulnerable enough to ask for help, because I needed to ask more for outside help from people. If you're not vulnerable enough, you're going to make a lot of dumb decisions. And I would say there were periods when I was younger I felt like, why would I ask all these other people, what if they're wrong? What do they know? I'm the smartest guy in the room. I run this business. Right. So at a young age, at least I can say I wasn't pretty good about asking for help and made a ton of mistakes and learned them the hard way. Great way to learn stuff. Tell you it sticks with you, but I could have avoided a lot of pitfalls. So as you get older, you just learn that, you know, you're not that smart and if you don't have any partners, you just need to surround yourself. And I surrounded myself with people that I always Joked and said, they're just way smarter than me. They were entrepreneurs. So fellow entrepreneurs who maybe we had a informal Vistage group, we were just entrepreneurs that would get together and commiserate about this, that and the other, and help each other. And that served me well. I say this all the time, everyone who knows me, but I really think entrepreneurs hang out together because it is like a 12 step program. It's a lonely place. Even what you do have partners, it's a lonely place because people that have never run a business just don't understand how difficult it can be and how dynamic you have to be to actually make it work and be successful. And there's a lot of things in life like that. Like people that don't have kids may not understand what it's like to have kids, or people that have never been married may not understand what it's like to be married or to be single or whatever. So it's just a place that a lot of people don't live. And I think it makes life, we entrepreneurs feel very lonely sometimes. And so we want to hang around with other entrepreneurs because I know you get me, Ryan, and I get you because your story is very much the same as mine with different characters and different settings, but it's a lot, very much the same. And so when I tell you all my crazy stories about how I screwed things up and thinking I'm so unique, and you say, yeah, I did that three times, Mike, that's no big deal. And I'm like real. You're just like me, you know, and that's how we are. So I think having partners is, can be very strong to have that kind of partnership right in with you, whereas I had to go outward to find it.
- [21:27]
A
You nailed something there. And I never even really thought about that, which is even with a partner, it still is very lonely. And there's a variety of reasons, but one shout out Vistage. I was in Vistage for six years. The only reason that I'm not today is because I put it on hiatus when I deployed. And then when I got back from deployment, I sold the company. And right now there's not much of a reason to join Vistage, but like, it became almost, I don't want to say therapy, but like everybody getting into a room that has like shared ideals and like understands what entrepreneurial loneliness is or whatever key term that is, there's nothing like that. When you think about some of these things that you put into place as you were experiencing this, do you think it was the Vistage and the business coaches, that kind of really helped give you perspective and really became kind of those rocks for you.
- [22:14]
B
Yeah, because I think when you're surrounded by other people like that, like a vistage or any kind of group, it could be an informal group, could be a bunch of buddies that are in business, you know, hang out together and have a beer. The difference is it's empathy as opposed to sympathy. Your friends and neighbors and your relatives give you sympathy. You say, well, we had a major setback in our company and we may go under. And everyone says, geez, I'm so sorry, Ryan. I feel sorry for you. Boy, that must be tough. Well, that's sympathy. You don't feel it. But when you sit down with your entrepreneur buddies and you can see it in their faces, they know that pain. You're military. So there's another example. I've done a lot of volunteer work with combat veterans, and I think part of the problem, the pts, is just how can I explain to other people what I have seen and experienced? Because there's no way to explain it. So they feel very isolated and very alone, and it actually, in my view, makes them feel even more isolated. Just like a business owner. When I give you sympathy and I say, well, really sorry about that. Yeah, that's just. That's rough. Boy, I'd hate to be you. You know what I mean? As opposed to when they get together with other veterans and they listen, then I know you get me because you have shared experiences. And so I think it's very much the same in a lot of things in life. But today we're talking about entrepreneurs. But it's that same dynamic of loneliness and. And I don't know what I would have ever done if I didn't surround myself with entrepreneurs, some very successful and some not so successful, but we learned just as much from both.
- [23:45]
A
It's true, this is a hard one, and it kind of puts you on the spot. But looking at that 20 years, what was the biggest mistake that you made? Like, when you look back and you're like, gosh, there was a lot that we made, but there was this one where, like, it was so painful that even to this day, I look back at that and I'm like, I will never in my life do that thing again.
- [24:05]
B
I made so many bad decisions throughout the years that it's hard to pinpoint one that's outstanding. But maybe I hope this answers your question the way you want. Let me know. I think it's more along the lines of the decision I Didn't make. I was in a business that the industry did not fit my core values. The industry didn't. So we were always struggling to build our own value system inside of a system that we were oddballs. And so it made it very hard to do business and made it very hard to hire people. It made it very hard to grow because there's just certain behaviors we wouldn't do, but they were very normal in that business. So I think if I had to say a decision I didn't make is I should have had the courage as an entrepreneur to find another business. Now, looking back, we were very successful at it, but everything we did was five times harder. And my advice to young entrepreneurs is you have to love the business that you're in. You have to love the customers you work with, and you have to love the people you work with. I mean, especially if they're employees. You have to love these people. And I mean love in the sense of really love them, like family, like really care about them. And if they say, ah, it's a bunch of hooey, I say, good luck with that because it's going to be a struggle. I built some transactional businesses where the people just did their jobs and I did my job was, okay, successful. But then I later built businesses really trusting, loving, caring employees, and we had each other's backs and we loved each other, and that business did so much better. It was so much easier, and we didn't still fit in much in the industry, but nonetheless, we found our own success and we were happy with what we had, and it was wonderful. So I just think that's the most important part of it. And I know that sounds all squishy and soft, but every business I coach, I. I find when they go to that place, not only are they happier, their business excels, it excels. It's no longer icky and struggles and difficult. So my guess, my question, my answer is I should have changed. I should have done a different business right from the start. I think it would have been much more fun, much probably way more successful, and I probably would have just enjoyed it more. But nonetheless, we never waver from our value system. So I'm very proud of what the team that I had did. They're just marvelous people.
- [26:22]
A
Do you think that that actually became a competitive advantage for you? And what I mean by that is, like, if everybody's doing business a certain way and you guys are like, we refuse to, I will say decrease, like, decrease our values, our moral. Like, whatever else happens here, the Answer is yes.
- [26:37]
B
But that just makes it hard to grow and makes it hard to attract people. Because as we talk about when you have core values, Core values do two things for us. Core value, course they attract the right people to whatever organization you're running, but they also repel others. And so if your core value system isn't common, then it's going to repel others. Let's just use a simple example. Say you're the kind of person that doesn't believe in drinking alcohol, but you're hanging out at a fraternity party. Well, you're not going to fit in very well. They got the kegger going and everyone's drinking like fish, right? And you're the guy having a Diet Coke. So there's going to be parts of it where you don't fit. And are you going to be the life of the party? Probably not. Are there going to be a lot of people like you attracted that party? Probably not. It doesn't mean you can't be there and enjoy yourself and have friends. But it's different. And you could switch that around. You know, it's a Diet Coke party and some guy that likes to do keg stands wants to come to your party. He's going to be a little bored, but he can hang out and have fun and good time. But it's not your. You notice how I reverted back to my college days 40 years ago? It's still hanging with me. These are just these weird metaphors I come up with. But there's core value systems all around us. And when you really pay attention to it, you see it everywhere. You see it everywhere in every kind of group of people. You see a value system and not a right or wrong. It's just the kinds of people that our group attracts and repels. When we weren't a fit to the industry, we essentially repel people that might have thought we were weird. They probably did and we didn't care because that's how I love what you're saying.
- [28:15]
A
And I used to hold a different opinion. One of my first companies, run for your lives, it took off very quick. It unfortunately dropped off a ledge just as fast. But we had a good three year run. But I had this idea of like what a company was supposed to be and what a leader was supposed to be. And a lot of these things were coming out of the military because at that point I already had about 10 years I was enlisted. So I was always looking up to officers and, and like they carried themselves in a certain manner professionally and they had to be a certain person. And I thought that that's what business was. And so the first business, like I would come in, in suits, it was a creative company, it was a zombie infested 5K obstacle course race. So it's the furthest thing you can get away from like a suit atmosphere. But I would come in with nice shoes and. Because that's what I thought a leader had to be. And I thought we were teammates. I still carried the teammates philosophy or the teammates phrase, because for some reason I don't like employees. So I just say teammates. But my thinking has really evolved over the years, probably over the last 10 years, to the concept which you're just talking about, which it sounds like you learned much sooner. But, like, there does have to be love. Like, there does have to be these other things that come in. Like, to me, I feel like you can make much more progress by enjoying what you're doing with the people that you're doing and solving big problems and having tough conversations. And it doesn't have to be this cutthroat mentality where we're all just players on the field and we're all replaceable and maybe we'll get traded next week and, you know, high turnover. So one more power to you on that.
- [29:39]
B
Right. So you had a lot of military experience and you also have been very successful in building businesses. What did you draw from your military experience, good or bad, that helped you or hurt you, or how did it affect how you ran businesses and how you built your businesses and interacted with your people?
- [29:55]
A
That's a great question. I think there's a couple things. When I was enlisted, I saw leaders through a certain light. And I could show you on my left screen right now, I have this thing called Evernote. And I've had Evernote for the past, probably 15 years. Before Evernote, I had pen and paper. And what I did for the first 10 years of my career was take notes on the things that I saw that I would not do if I were in their position. Like, cut to the end. I eventually got a commission and I look at these notes all the time. And what's been really interesting is the military is generally very hard to evolve and adapt. And they're always laggards. It's bigger than Coke. It's a gigantic machine. It's a whole bunch of bureaucracy. And so the way that we did it before is the way that we're going to continue to do it until you get assholes like me that come in and like, don't necessarily care about moving up more, care about taking care of their people and improving life and effectiveness of whatever it is that we're trying to accomplish. So long winded. When I was enlisted, and this was probably 20, 15, 20 years ago, I was taking notes on all the things not to do. That's evolved though. I think one, the military has made a really substantial improvement in the way that they look at leadership and the way that they train their folks. And they've done a really good job over the last decade or two with those things and modernizing the philosophy. So it used to be like yelling and screaming, like, hey, who's your captain? Oh, he's a yeller. Like, that's just as bad in the military as it is on the civilian because people are just as demotivated to do things that they don't understand why they're doing them. But I will tell you this is while I do have the list of all the things not to do, what's really kind of come to head over the last five to 10 years is the things that the Navy at least has done incredibly well. And they've been around forever. And I used to not understand those things. Things like training, things like onboarding. And I used to like an onboarding checklist. Something as simple as a checklist. A new sailor shows up to a command, they have a whole list of things that they need to accomplish. They've got to go get signatures from different people, They've got a sponsor that can help out with different things. But anyhow, now I'm being long winded with this. But the thing that I will tell you is the Navy has done some things incredibly well and they've done that through trial and error over the last several hundred years. And so I think there's a lot of things that I can learn. And I used to be close minded and think that there was no good reason for the things they were doing. And everybody yelled at you when you didn't do what they asked you to do. Now I look at things and I'm like, the Navy's evolving from a leadership standpoint, that's incredible. And also a lot of these foundational things that have been around for the last hundred years, there's a lot of common sense to it.
- [32:27]
B
I love that answer. Yeah, everything evolves. And you know, it's funny, as I get older, you're asking me about things I might have done differently. When I'm ancestral with my clients, I swear to God, I see me sitting in all those chairs and I just Want to tell them, you guys are doing all these things that I understand because I made so many mistakes. But you're just young and you don't know what you don't know. But you do evolve and things evolve and things always get better. Again, as long as we're willing to talk about stuff, it gets better. And I think even today's culture throughout, and maybe even the military too, there's more people talking about things and when you talk about things, they do get better. But maybe in the old, old, old days it was like, just get it done. I don't want to hear anything. And you know, yes sir, and on you go. But I don't know. That certainly doesn't work very well in civilian life. But they had it that way in civilian life.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah. And that's the thing is like I don't think it works well in any lives now. Like it used to be accepted. That's just the way things happen was the culture. Right. And that's how things worked. And then you had like one person that probably changed something in the 80s or 90s and like, and then it started to shift cultures and thinking and people are like, you're right. Like there are better ways to go about this. One quick plug, real quick. Because you just brought up something about the session rooms and like one quick plug for you and for eos, which is this notion of having a second set of eyes actually in a session room. We self implemented EOS for probably two or three years. Read the book Traction, had an EOS implementer come through a Vistage group. And then we went out, we got an expert implementer shout out Margaret Dixon out of Boulder, Colorado. And she whooped our butts like day one, she was like, what the heck are you guys doing? And we were like, we're self implementing. But you're right, like having someone else in the session room that like gets it, has lived it. There's so many things that that individual can do to help guide that organization. And you might not understand the exact business or exactly the decision that they should make, but being able to get them to openly and talk candidly about their problems, like that's the unlock. So plug for you.
- [34:32]
B
Well, I agree with that. You know, I mentioned to Gino Wickman, oh maybe a year ago now, I said, gino, I'm just not sure if it's entrepreneurial operating system. So when you say the words operating and system, it sounds like a very functional machine that we're going to help you function well from a. I don't know, it sounds very processy, and we're going to give you the structure, and it does do that, does create an organizing framework within which people can communicate better. But I said, but I really think that it's not just a business improvement system. I think it's a people and team improvement business. We deal more. 70% of what we do, if not more, is really working with people, making them healthier, making them communicate better, getting them to talk about things. And as a result, when the people are healthy, the business becomes very healthy and it functions better. And of course, the framework that EOS works well with healthy people. So sometimes we're working on the health part first, so we can plug it into this very simple system that functions better just because the people are healthy. And I really believe that. I'd say, geez, at least for me, 70 to 80% of what I do is more along the lines of people health as opposed to processes, systems, and all that. That all falls into place when people are not communicating and they're not healthy. It's hard to do anything. It's just hard to do anything.
- [35:54]
A
I agree with you there, 100% agree. And the one thing that I did want to kind of segue from that conversation is there's this notion of, like, in order to have those types of conversations that you need to be able to have in the session room, like, you got to get people candid and you got to get people vulnerable. And I realize, like, we probably don't have another 30 minutes to go down this rabbit hole. But one of the things that really stuck out to me when you and I spoke initially is this concept of good ego. And I think all too often we hear about ego, and we immediately associate ego with something that is negative, with something that will shut people down, will people will be less receptive or less candid or vulnerable in their conversations. I think your perspective might be a little different. I thought it was really interesting and it had me thinking quite a bit after the call. So that's kind of a tee up for, like, what is ego to you? And then let's jam on that for a minute.
- [36:46]
B
That's a tough question because. All right, so ego, at least for me growing up, when someone said ego, I thought of arrogance. You know, that Ryan, he's just got a big ego. We've all heard that. Oh, you got a big ego. Which I guess this supposed, that's me saying you're arrogant. But if you really think about it, humility and arrogance, if you put them on a spectrum they're really defined the same way. It's how much we think of others. So humility is really thinking of others, and arrogance will be thinking of us. And somewhere along the spectrum. So I think I kind of define ego different ways. Yes, there's that arrogant ego, but I think there's this ego of us. The. I don't want to say arrogance. I'm just. Let's lose that word. Just. Our ego is this thing that protects us all the time. It's protecting us from things that could hurt us. It's that most basic sense of human existence. Right. It's that bottom of Maslow's hierarchy, self protection. So we all have fears and anxieties and insecurities, and the ego's job is to stand guard there and put up a shield anytime anyone wants to poke at those little sensitivities. And so our ego can keep us from growing. So there's a good ego. And I want to say maybe a mild sense of confidence. Maybe there's. I don't want to say arrogance, but there's a confidence to say, you know, I think I can do this. And other people might say, I don't know, Ryan, are you smart enough to do that? Go. You know, I don't know either, but I think I can. So that takes a little bit of ego, the arrogance, ego. Maybe you're sliding a little bit and that's okay. But then there's that ego part that if it become. It's trying to protect you from things. And this goes back to what I said earlier. I don't want to listen to people because when you help me, you coach me, you're pointing out things to me that maybe I don't want to hear. And my ego says, I don't need to hear that. That hurts, stings, and I don't even know I'm doing it. My ego just jumps in and takes over. And I find 100 reasons why I shouldn't listen to you. And you're wrong. And this is how we're built. Thousands of years of this. So I think we need to be careful. The ego, the good ego, the part that says, confident, I can do this, I think that's good. Because if you had no confidence, we'd all walk around like Eeyore, saying, ah, what's the point? It'll never work. Why try? I'm not that smart. I'm not good looking. I can't do it. I'll never. It'll fail. I don't know that. To me, that's a Total lack of confidence. And in a certain sense, you want a little bravado, little something to say, I can do it. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Those are my two ways about the ego. But I think the bigger part of ego playing is that one that's protecting us all the time and holding us back from actually learning and growing. That's probably the worst ego.
- [39:30]
A
It's a very unique and interesting perspective, and it had me thinking a lot after our call. And I actually took a note of it, which is why I wanted to bring it up here, because I agree with you. I never thought about it like that. How I'd always thought about it is like, people that are egotistical, like, generally we refer to those people as assholes. And most companies, entrepreneurial companies, have no asshole rules, which is if you bring somebody like that into the organization, they're going to be rejected. I'm sure there's a place for overly confident people, but not at any organizations that I've managed or launched. But it was so interesting hearing you talk about this idea of, like, everybody has ego. Like, nobody's special. Like, everybody has some layer of ego. And it's a matter of, like, how thick is that layer? And to not have any, you would have no confidence, and therefore you wouldn't be able to get any of it done. And so it's like, how can you balance humility with ego? And I think that that's like the really kind of interesting thing. So the one part that I've still been trying to get to is how do you know when it's too much like, where's the line? How do you identify it? I have a couple ideas, but it would be interested if, like, if you've taken it that far.
- [40:38]
B
What are your couple ideas?
- [40:40]
A
I think it's once it starts to shut other people down and you can be incredibly confident. I think I'm confident. Like, I enjoy what I'm doing. I'm confident, I'm a believer, I'm optimistic. I'm all of these different things, but I also want to be coached. And so I consider myself coachable. Like, I want to hear the things that I can improve because the competitive spirit in me makes me want to go improve them. And so I think that line is really, once it starts to impact other people's actions beyond yourself in a negative way. That's probably the line.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah. And here's the ironic part, is if you really are arrogant and full of ego, you're probably not even going to listen to it when other people tell you, this is the sad part. So that's what. It probably gets worse. I would think, if you took a spectrum of humility and arrogance. I think that ego is not necessarily, in my mind, all the way over by arrogance. I think you could be very humble, but have an ego and an ego that you can control. So the ego is not blocking you from being coached. It's not blocking you from when your ego stands up and puts a shield up and says, I don't need to hear this. I'm smart enough, bright enough, good enough, and gosh darn it, people like me. Sometimes you just have to have the humility to say, maybe I can learn something here. Maybe I'm not as smart as I thought, or maybe I didn't have the right answer here. I think that there's an ego part there that gives you the confidence to be able to say, I can learn more, I can be better, I may be flawed. And so I think there's a nice blend of ego and humility. That's a wonderful balance. Of course, way over on the other spectrum, where I'm just, I think God's gift to the world, that's a losing proposition. And probably most of your friends or relatives will tell you, even though you won't listen, that's the asshole thing you talked about. But I think people wrongly assume that if you're super humble and gracious and humble and nice and kind, that somehow you don't have any bravado. And I disagree. I think you can be both. I think you can be very humble. I think he'd be very honorable, giving, kind, nice, and still be able to now and then say, hold it, I'm worthy of all these things. I'm worthy of good things and I belong and I should be here and I'm smart enough and good enough, and gosh darn it, I like the way I am. And I think it does take a little bit of ego to be able to say that I love it.
- [42:53]
A
Mike, when you look for clients, let's talk real quick about your practice, because I know we're just about out of time. I want to make sure that you get your information out like you are a certified EOS implementer. What do you look for in clients? Are they geographically located somewhere? Is it a certain industry? Who's your ideal client?
- [43:11]
B
Ideal client is any organization that has people. Because EOS is really just a people management system. It's just thought managing human energy. So when people say, what kind of business is your specialty? What does it serve best? Organizations with people. The kinds of clients I click with and like are the ones that embrace the things we've been talking about today, which are culture and vulnerability and being able to talk about things and seeing that a business is not built just on the skills and talents of the people, it's built on the value systems and how much those people care about the other people in the organization. So for all of us EOS implementers, as we meet companies, there's a chemistry that you feel between you and the company you're coaching. And. And I happen to like the ones that like what we're talking about here, you know, and that's my sweet spot. That's my sweet spot because I found that when. When I get people talking, thinking, caring for each other, showing genuine care and concern for each other, the rest takes care of itself because they're already talented people. They know what to do. They just do it better. So those are the teams I love to coach, and that's what fulfills me every day when I get to sit in that room and be humbled by the brilliance of some of these entrepreneurs. They are absolutely brilliant, and they don't know it sometimes because they're humble. And if I can just do this much to help them get better so they can expose more of their brilliance and they grow, I'm just a small little catalyst in this thing that they already had inside of them that they just take off with. And that's what thrills me.
- [44:40]
A
Love it. And if someone just listened to this whole episode, then that last bit and they're like, that's me. How would they get a hold of you?
- [44:46]
B
Mike? I have a website. It's eosworldwide.com forward/mike-gruley. Or they can just call me 248-761-4401. Love to have a chat, set up a call. And I love meeting entrepreneurs and hearing their stories. They're all crazy and they're all great.
- [45:06]
A
I love it. Mike, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on today. I loved our conversation. I mean, we talked about everything from ego to partnerships to culture. Lessons learned throughout life, military, we covered it all. So I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to come on today.
- [45:20]
B
Thanks for having me on today because I probably learned more than you did, so I'm grateful, too, my friend. Thanks so much. I love your insight on this stuff.
- [45:27]
A
Awesome. Thanks so much, Mike.
- [45:29]
B
All right, you take care.
- [45:31]
A
Confessions of an Implementer is brought to you by Talent Harbor. To find out more about Talent harbor and our fractional services and talent search solutions for businesses visitors, visit talentharbor.com and then make sure to search for Confessions of an Implementer in Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Google Podcasts or anywhere else podcasts are found. Make sure to click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. And on behalf of the team here at Talent harbor, thanks for listening.