← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E23 | Kind Leadership: The Power of Honest Feedback with Matt Hansen
00:44:54
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- [00:00]
Matt Hanson
In the session room, one of the things I talk about, you know, in the beginning, we talk about always reinforcing how people should be open and honest in the session. And one of the other things I talked about that actually a different implementer had mentioned to me that I stole from her. But is the difference between being nice and kind? We want to be nice to people and we conflate that with being kind. And sometimes being kind is actually saying the hard thing because we're saying it for the other person's benefit.
- [00:32]
Ryan Hogan
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. Matt. When I was looking at your LinkedIn, the one thing that struck me and the one thing that I noticed is you have spent a lot of time in the automotive and aerospace. Was that, was that like a passion? Like, how did you, how did you land on that?
- [01:05]
Matt Hanson
No, like. So anyway, my backstory, engineering degree, right? I'm obvious from LinkedIn, so I loved engineering. Still do. Don't, haven't done it forever, forgotten half of everything, but I just loved machines. That's why I was actually biochem major for a couple, two, three years in college and horrible grades because, right. We would talk about gwc, I did not w a degree in biochemistry, so I didn't study. And then I got into engineering and there's a whole story about that. And I loved it, right? But you know, I. So when I was young, you know, I went to work, I worked for a really small company between before I went to grad school and went to grad school and then worked for a different one. And when I went to this after grad school, this big, little bit bigger company, it was, I'd seen like GE and people had like these leadership rotation programs. Every six months you go to a different place. And this company didn't have that. But I wanted to, I wanted to move up the ranks over time. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to make my own program. And so. And what in my head, being a, you know, like all 25 years old, thinking I figured out the world, I was like, well, I want to be an engineer and I want to be a competent engineer. So I'm going to do that until I feel like I'm competent enough, right? And then I need to know how to go out and find good business and close Sales and then I need to know how to like run operations or a factory or you know, that kind of stuff. And then they'll give me really good background so I can, you know, hopefully one day run a business. And so company I worked at at that time, like amazing engineering experience, World class engineers. Learned so much from them doing really super complex, really cool things like earthquake simulators and all sorts of wild stuff. Super fun engineering job, but it was also really specialized niche. And so at a certain point I started moving in and business development, stuff like that. And I was like, you know, I think I want to know more about how to like be a really good business person because this is a really unique niche and so they don't have to be so strong in certain areas. And so I left, I went to work for a company called Goodrich. Goodrich did not make tires at that time. They only did aerospace. Yeah, Michelin bought the Goodrich Band brand in like the 90s or something. And so Goodrich Pure Play aerospace and defense company back then and doesn't exist. They were bought. So Goodrich is gone. But, but I went. That's how I got in aerospace for the most. Well, actually I guess there was a project I did where developed a new process on how to build airplanes without rivets. That was a whole thing before Goodrich that was super fun. But. But that's how I got into aerospace and just did that for a long time.
- [04:02]
Ryan Hogan
That's wild. There are so many things you just said there that I had no idea. I had no idea that Goodrich was in aerospace. Everybody knows B.F. goodrich for the tires and it. Wow. I talked to my son and actually all of my kids about this a lot because they're trying to figure out college and schools. And one thing I always talk to them about is in college it's really about learning a skill set, learning about things, but really gaining that maturity and the clarity and the like, what you need to go out into the real world. And I'm always speaking from a place of like when I first got into college it was an English major because the business school wouldn't let me in. And then the business school let me in and all the things that they taught me were sort of irrelevant. Like we were still learning about billboards and out of home advertisement when like social media was like it. And so I always have this like preconceived notion of like there's a whole different element or purpose to college. But I didn't go to college for engineering and I'm Assuming that not only did you learn a lot of things that were very technical that applied. Are there things that came out of that engineering education that, like, later applied to things that were outside of actual engineering?
- [05:23]
Matt Hanson
Totally, I think, you know, so my dad was an engineer as well, and he used to always say that all your degree really does is it tells you how to solve problems and how to think. And, you know, as a young engineer, I knew all sorts of formulas and everything, but you didn't really know how to apply it because you didn't, you know, all theory. But the thing that I've carried with me all these years is it's a way of solving problems. It's how to break down a thing. Right. You got a problem, you got it, you got an issue. How do we break it down? How do we make sense of it? And then how do we create a plan to go ahead and tackle that? And that. That is probably the one lesson that I've taken from engineering that I still carry with me all these years later is I spent a lot of years basically learning how to break down problems.
- [06:17]
Ryan Hogan
Yeah. Which seems very, very valuable. Maybe that's what I should be telling the kids right now is like, go, go do engineering. Because not only will you get all those things that. That I talked about, but you'll actually get a tangible set of. Of skills, which is how to solve complex issues.
- [06:35]
Matt Hanson
That. That's all it is. But, yeah, my. My colle. My first couple years in college, they. They were. I learned a lot on how much alcohol my body could absorb. Yes.
- [06:45]
Ryan Hogan
I was like Billy Madison back in college because I had. I already had kids. And if I would have gone to college, like, at 18, I would have flunked out. There was no way I. I didn't possess the maturity, the dis. Actually, I had really nothing going for me. And so I joined the Navy. The Navy gave me a lot. And then 10 years later, I went into college. And so I used to look at all of the cool kids that would come in hungover in their Uggs, and I was like, I gotta go home today to a household of three kids and a dog.
- [07:16]
Matt Hanson
I probably. I needed a little bit of maturity when I started. It took me a couple years. Unfortunately, my kids are not like me. They're much more mature than I am. There, there.
- [07:28]
Ryan Hogan
There you go. What. When. As you're navigating, so you get a degree in engineering, and then you go do some really cool work in the aviation space. Like, what are some other things that came along with that? Experience because we're going to get to the place of where you became an EOS implementer and all the amazing work that you're doing today. But I'm assuming and especially looking at your LinkedIn profile, I think there was, there was something in there around like you were leading or managing 300 people a division at a certain point. So like how, what did that transition look like of like hands on solving complex problems to like now those problems are people.
- [08:08]
Matt Hanson
So the one thing. Yeah, and that was it wasn't a division, it was just a big program using aerospace words. But, but I think the thing that was kind of the thread throughout my career is it's always, I've always ended up taken on hard problems. I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe it was because I'm stubborn and wouldn't give up on things, or maybe it was people saw that as something I could do. I don't know why I ended up, but I usually get got the stuff that for whatever reason I was breaking new ground, you know. So for example, I mentioned that develop that process that could build airplanes without rivets. And I remember like I was young, right out of grad school, somebody said, hey, there's a thing, I'm like, okay, I'll go do this thing right? And nobody knew how to. I remember sitting in a room with a bunch of super experienced Boeing engineers that had done some R and D stuff and I was talking to them about how they did it and try to learn whatever they actually share with me. I remember they said, you know, we don't think this can be done. And so a year later we had a client, a customer who committed the design of an airplane to actually build it using this process. Myself and other people, we figured it out and I think it's just a bit of stubbornness and hard work and a little bit of luck and everything else. And that's the thing that's been through my whole career is usually sometimes it's mistakes I've cost myself that I got solved and created my own hard problems. But that's kind of what's been the only common thread in my career through everything else is I end up in a situation where I'm supposed to solve something and, and just tackle it through stubbornness and hard work.
- [09:54]
Ryan Hogan
There's an interesting kind of like thread there because there's, there's this old story and like, who knows if it's true, but we'll assume that it's true where, you know, Henry Ford needed a certain type of Glass. And. And everybody on the floor said, like, we. We can't do that. What you're asking for is impossible. And so the story goes is that he fired everybody that said it wasn't possible, and he brought in a whole bunch of people who were like, I don't know. We'll give it a shot. What did you see that other people couldn't see?
- [10:26]
Matt Hanson
I'd love to say that I had some outstanding vision and I could see the path. I'd love if that was how it was. But that's. That's. I'm neither smart enough nor clairvoyant enough to honestly say that I. I remember when. When I graduated grad school, took my first job. After grad school, my mom gave me this little leather placard thing, like, lean it on my desk kind of deal. And it said, it can be done. And that's kind of my motto. It can be done. Now, sometimes believing it can be done has let me stay in things longer than I should have because I stubbornly believed it could be done. And sometimes wisdom tells you it really can't, like, give up, but usually I just stick with it. I keep gnawing on something when there's this thing where, like, let's say I have an idea or a thing, right? And sometimes those things rattle around my head for a long time. But once it rattles around enough, I guess I've learned enough to say of myself to say, that's a real thing. And so we're going to work on it. And so the only thing I'm right, there's people that are smarter than me, more charismatics, talk better, like, all the things. I'm pretty average in a lot of ways, but the only thing that I'm really good at is when I commit to something, I'm going to work it, and I'm going to run into problems, I'm going to run into obstacles, and if that way doesn't work, I'll find a different way. And that's the only thing that I'm good at, is I'll just keep working it. You know, there's this. This kind of thing that I call it. I call it glacial perseverance, right? Glaciers will just grind on things until they make these huge valleys, right? Make huge changes. And that's the only thing that I'm good at, is I'll just keep working it and working it and working it, and eventually we'll solve it. That's the only thing I'm good at.
- [12:28]
Ryan Hogan
Do you have a trademark on that? By the way, because I love this glacial perseverance. I think that's actually going to be the title of the show now, by.
- [12:34]
Matt Hanson
The way, maybe I should go to trademark. Go in the US Patent Trademark Office right now and do it before you post it.
- [12:42]
Ryan Hogan
There you go. Yeah, just, I'll give you a royalty to use it for this episode. Oh, gosh, that's really good. I'm assuming you didn't go alone on these journeys. And there's a couple other things at play here. So there's the leadership aspect of this. So you're going to solve a very hard problem. You're going to do so from a place of like, we're just going to figure it out right now. Nobody's been able to figure out, but we're going to figure it out. And so there's the aspect of bringing people along with you, and then there's also the aspect of there's a whole bunch of people that, that believe what you're doing can't be done. And I'm assuming that these aren't young, you know, fresh out of college. These are people that have been working this problem or working in this industry or engineering solutions for decades. How, how do you navigate that? How do you get. How do you inspire people that like, yes, we can solve this? And also, how do you not piss every single person off inside of that, that organization?
- [13:46]
Matt Hanson
The way I handle it, I'd love to say that I have some beautiful system again. I go back to this thing I like, you're giving me way more credit than I deserve. The way I work it is I just talk to people. I just talk to people and explain and understand and what are your problems and what is happening? I mean, sometimes people find that annoying, right? I kind of consider it a bit of a pain in the ass. Why won't this guy just leave me alone? But that's how I learned one of my core value. Like Eos, we have our core values for Eos and we talk to our clients about that. I have personal, personal, core values. And one of them is enjoyment through learning. I have a lot of fun just learning through things. Another one is growth through hard challenges. That's another big one. And so I just talk to people and ask questions and learn things and explain what we're trying to do. And. And there's a piece of that. So hopefully they can understand why I'm asking what they're asking so they can see their place in it. And then also there's a little bit of stubbornness, like we're also just going to do this. And so sometimes. Sometimes we get to go along, and sometimes we're going to push. And that's about all it is. I wish it was more sophisticated. I'm sure there's people that are much better at that than I am, but that's. That's how I've always done it. And sometimes people do get pissed off. I've had plenty of stories where people get grumpy. And then there's other stories where we were like, magical project where everybody works together and was everybody in it together? And we've had them all. I've had them all.
- [15:22]
Ryan Hogan
Have you ever had a circumstance where. Where you were a bit more into that push and it's like, hey, we're. I've tried to get everybody on the same page. Like, I've done the best that I could. We've exhausted all avenues, and now we just got to go. And so, like, we went from this, like, building support. We got to go. And then here's, here's the crazy part, because I'm. I'm sure there's many times where you've, like, pushed and pulled. Have you ever been wrong in the direction that you've taken it?
- [15:49]
Matt Hanson
All the time. I'm wrong all the time. Constantly wrong. You know, one example is this is like over a decade ago, company I was at, I remember we was running a big program, you know, blah, blah, blah, this kind of stuff. And, and anyway, the company I was working at, we had my. My big corporation. My program was the biggest for this particular customer and the corporation, and they wanted to have more businesses and divisions to have business there. So we were kind of the lead and we got exposed to, here's an opportunity to bring in some sister companies with it, you know, sister sites. And I remember the manager for the purchasing manager, he'd be like, okay, there's this thing. But he actually said the words, there will be blood. You will be in trouble. And people would be pissed off at you. Do you want it? And like, after I hear that three or four times, I remember we were far into the rfp. We were. We were right down to getting close. And I went to my, My. My boss, the president, and I'm like, hey, you know, this is not us like this. This is not in our sweet spot. We do a different thing than they're asking us to do. I think it's a mistake. And he said, hey, okay, so you're going to be a quitter. Like, boink, push that button. It was like, all right, let's go do it. Giant mistake. Should have pushed back. It was ugly because it wasn't our sweet spot. Lots of bad things happened. Lots of some of the customers, some of us, some of sister sites, lots of messiness. We were, at one point, we were the third worst supplier to this particular customer. Big company and lots of bad things. You know, I remember going into a meeting with, at the end of the day, CEO, multibillion dollar company was there. My evp, a different evp, couple presidents than little old me, right? Briefing the customer. At the end of the day, our CEO was really mad, and we were briefing him on my evp, had to leave. And I walk him out, he's in the car, getting ready to go. He's like, be ready, right? Shit's hitting the fan, like, scared. And anyway, so that was one of those circumstances where, you know, I had people higher up the chain basically saying, don't spare any cost. Fix it. Okay? So at that point, I had my peers in different functional groups. I'm fixing it. I don't care what toes I step on. These people that report to you, they now are my people, and we're going to go do it. And we work together. And the team I had, we became a really great team. But in that case, it didn't matter. We were going to fix it. And it was a lot of hard work, and it was super, super stressful and took a while to do it, but we fixed it. We got to 100% on time. Delivery got everything cleared. But that was one of those situations where it kind of started where I made a mistake not pushing back in the first place, saying, we need to talk about this. And that was my failure.
- [18:59]
Ryan Hogan
It's great that you figured out how to solve it and that the organization not only empowered you, but trusted you to, to take a whack at this and, and go and, and fix it. How do you get the people that were under you at that point? So the people that were, like, watching this happen, and maybe some of them were like, hey, we're moving in the wrong direction. Hey, we're doing this, but we should be doing this. And so you've got a lot of people that, that may have believed, like, hey, I saw this coming a mile away, but. But big corporate people couldn't see it, you know, whatever. How do you regain their trust to bring them along on this new journey?
- [19:39]
Matt Hanson
So I'm not a micromanager. I ask a lot of questions, but I'm not necessarily telling people what to do. I'M trying to synthesize things in my head and provide guidance where possible, but I ask a lot of questions, but I'm not telling people what to do. And so a lot of times, um, I think that helps people. You know, for example, there was a young guy, became a project manager on this. He earned his stripes. Like, he, his reputation in the company, like, went many times, and it wasn't because of me. I just gave him space. He stepped in the void and he showed what he can do. And there was a lot of other people in the team that did the same thing. And so that's, that's kind of what we did. Right. I'd ask a lot of questions and I'd say, this is the bar. We need to get to the bar. Right? And we'll figure it out. And I think that that helped a lot.
- [20:31]
Ryan Hogan
And then how do you go from, from all of this? Like, where'd you hear about eos? You're like, you're doing amazing things in the, in the aviation space and building rivetless aircraft, like doing really cool stuff, and then you just like, EOS appeared. How did that come about?
- [20:50]
Matt Hanson
Yeah, that was at a time where, so I left the big companies and I went to run a small business for a while for an owner. And through that experience, I realized in the big company. So 20 years ago, when I was working at Goodrich, they had a thing called a Certified Lean Practitioner. So it's a whole process and classes and some mentoring and things like that. And you'd learn how to lead Lean Events and you'd be a facilitator. And I also then adapted some of what we did in Lean Events to some strategy stuff and some product management strategy type stuff, and adapted it in different ways and used it in different ways. And so that was kind of. And they had an operating system. It's called the Goodrich Operating System. So that was kind of my first exposure to operating systems. And so fast forward, I was running that small business. It was like, okay, people. People haven't come up. A lot of these people had been in this business, but they hadn't necessarily been exposed to bigger company ways of doing things. And so I knew how to do it in a big company, but it didn't work the same in a little company. Like, I could. These things didn't translate. And so I saw the pain there. But the other thing is, I also started to explore and think about, like, when did I. When I'd been working for companies, I was 51 or 2, something like that whatever it was at the time, and started to think, what do I want to do? And so a guy who used to be an implementer a number of years ago, and he went off on his own a few years ago, but he turned me on to a book that really explored that about. A lot of people come to a point in their transition point in their career where they think, like, what do I really want to do? And the way that it talked about was a lot of people. In the beginning of your career, you talk about accomplishments, titles, awards, stuff, right? And in the end, and the second half career, a lot of people start to look at what is the impact you want to make. And that's where I started to think about, like, well, yeah, I think. I think I. I don't want to just make profit for people. I don't. I don't really care about managing people or how many people or whatever the title is. I want to focus on what I want to do, and that's really helping people. That's. That's. That's. My third core value is service through mentorship. And so that's when I also. This person started telling me about eos. I was like, oh, I. As I read Traction and everything, I saw all the parallels with the Goodrich operating system because there were a lot of things, like they had a people philosophy and the people. Like, there was parallels, but it was different but similar. And then the experience of facilitating was like, you know what? This sounds like something I'd really love to do, because I get a focus on just helping people. And I love teaching. Whenever I've been volunteer, I've always ended up being as a mentor, a coach, a teacher, or something like that. And it kind of all came together. So I have a different route to eos than a lot of people do, but it all makes sense to me.
- [24:05]
Ryan Hogan
That's all that matters. When you discovered Traction in the book and saw the correlations of what you had experienced at Goodrich, were you still at. Were you still leading the smaller organization at that point?
- [24:21]
Matt Hanson
No, I'd left. I wasn't there anymore.
- [24:24]
Ryan Hogan
Got it. You've talked about. I think it's come up maybe three or four times now, this idea of your own core values. And I think a lot of times, especially when we're talking on eos and we talk about the business, and business have core values, and that drives core behaviors, and that's ultimately what makes the business successful. When did you start really thinking deeper about your core values? Because you said, that's my Number three, core value. So you obviously have a list somewhere and you have them documented when you, when did you do that?
- [24:58]
Matt Hanson
So I started back in about 2019. I worked with a. I had an executive coach I worked with for a while and he was like, hey, let's talk about. I don't remember the exact. He didn't really talk about in terms of values, I think, or maybe, maybe not, I don't remember. But kind of we did an exercise and what was important to me and kind of that stuff, you know. And that was back in. Yeah, it was 2019 that, that was when I started to work at. And then for the next four or five years again, it would kind of every once in a while would kind of bubble up and rattle around. And over time it got more and more firm about, hey, these core values, maybe those aren't really core, they're important, but not core. And then this is how I really word them. And just like when we talk with our clients, like when we talk about core focus, one of the things we talk about is core focus. You might nail it in 20 minutes or it might take you two years. I think core values, we can get to the heart of it pretty quickly, but we continue to sort of work on it. That's why every quarter, every annual, we go back to that and we talk about are those the right core values? And that's the process I went through for five years to finally get down to the three core values that I think and the way I write them and think about them, that really matter to me and make sense.
- [26:15]
Ryan Hogan
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- [28:14]
Matt Hanson
The right number is what resonates for those people. I think, I think I do believe less is more. But if it's four, if it's five, great. If it's three, that's fine too. But make sure, right? I think sometimes we talk about, hey, three to seven core values. Some people are like, oh, well, I've only got five, so I'm going to do another one and I'm going to add another one. Right? And because I can get seven, I think that's where you really got to do the hard work. And that's why you have to go back, right? That's why we talk about all the time. Because there's important things and there's core things and those are different. And for me, it happened to be three. But it's really what's right for the person. I think that's. Or the company, the group, the leadership team, whatever. I think it's an individual choice for them. But you gotta do the hard work to really be clear about what's important.
- [29:20]
Ryan Hogan
And one of the things that you said is there was a point in which you had, which you had more and then you, you had, you'd been going through this exercise over time where you're like, I mean, that's important to me. But I wouldn't say that's like a core value. Like, how, how did you do those tough exercises? Like, it, it was there a benchmark? Was it a feeling like, like, how did you really start to say, like, this is important? But it's not that important.
- [29:45]
Matt Hanson
Well, you know, one of the things, one of the final steps that helped to really clarify it because I, you know, I kind of messed around and you doodle and then you wouldn't think about it for six or seven months and they kind of rattle around. You know, that's kind of how it works for me. But when I was doing through this process of, like, what is the impact I want to make? I also did. Right. You've probably heard of unique ability 2.0. So I went through that exercise and when I, you know, I asked a whole bunch of people that knew me and loved me, co workers and friends, like, what do I do good? Like, scary, scary process to ask. I mean, isn't that weird, though? Like, you go ask somebody that you, you like and you know likes you, and you ask, what do you think of me? And you're scared to death they're going to say, you're the biggest asshole I've ever met. Right. Like in your head, that's the story you tell yourself and you get nice things back. So of course they like me. They're going to be jerks. But anyway, I went through that process and lot of different assessments and all sorts of things and, and as I looked at it, those things started to really bubble up and those were the things that really finally started to crystallize at the end. That makes sense for me, your comments.
- [30:56]
Ryan Hogan
On, on asking other people for feedback. Like, my. I. I don't know why, why that's such a big fear. Like, it's a fear with me, and maybe it's just human nature. But like, to your point, this is one of the exercises that happens as you're going through quarterly pulses and onboarding a vos. But like, a leadership team has to sit around across the table from each other and say, like, you know, what's, what's one thing we could have, like, you know, Henry over here, stop doing today for the betterment of the team. For me, it was. The weird part is like, I thrive in critical feedback. Like, I would love for everybody to tell me how I can improve because that gives me actionable things. But I have a very hard time telling other people how they can improve, even though I know how they can improve, but that makes me feel very awkward. Hey, how do you overcome some of that stuff, whether personally or in the session room?
- [31:48]
Matt Hanson
For me, I wish I would. I've had to learn to get better, right? Because it's a scary to break through that kind of glass wall a little Bit in the session room. One of the things I talk about, you know, in the beginning, we talk about always reinforcing, how people should be open and honest in the session. And one of the other things I talk about that actually a different implementer had mentioned to me, and I stole from her. But is the difference between being nice and kind. We want to be nice to people, and we conflate that with being kind. And sometimes being kind is actually saying the hard thing because we're saying it for the other person's benefit. And so I talk about that when I launch sessions now to remind people why it's important to be all of these different things or be aware of these things. And I remember I was in a session with a client. It was our second session, so it was the first vision building day, and we were talking about accountability chart. And it was interesting. I could see everybody was sort of dancing around about what they were trying to talk about. I was like, you know what? You guys warm my heart. You're being so nice. It's so lovely to see how nice you're being. Talk about the real issue. You're not. You're not. You're not being kind. You're being just too nice.
- [33:06]
Ryan Hogan
I love it. What's like when you are. When you're sitting in the vision building days and you're the early days of. Of your clients, like, what are some of the hardest things? Not that they grapple with, but, like, what are some of the common challenges you have as you're taking a company kind of through this process from scratch?
- [33:25]
Matt Hanson
It can come in so many different forms. I think a lot of times it's. I mean, there's all the technical stuff. There's all of that and just learning the tools. And that's part of the fun part is you get a few sessions in and you can see all the tumblers click into place. They're like, oh, now you get it. That's super fun. And obviously they're learning a lot of new things. That's always a challenge. But I think the more challenging part is when we talk to people about health, team health. Everybody's like, yeah, we're healthy.
- [34:02]
Ryan Hogan
Right?
- [34:02]
Matt Hanson
Like, I get along to everybody, or for the most part. And that's the hardest thing to really break through is because, like you mentioned, critical feedback, people have learned where the hot buttons are, and most people that are well adjusted won't push those buttons very much. Right. We kind of dance around those. And that's the hardest part. Have the courage to step into that space and try to talk about the thing that nobody's wanted to talk about for a long time and then realize it isn't as scary as it seems. And actually it's like a game changer. I think that feels like usually the hardest thing for people to really understand and get to interesting.
- [34:47]
Ryan Hogan
And is it like that moment, Is that generally what you would say is the breakthrough moment in implementation or like really making progress is like, once you've got that and everybody sees, oh, this is a safe space, oh, we are like solving issues. Is that, Is that generally it?
- [35:06]
Matt Hanson
Yeah, totally, I think. Totally. Because, you know, so for example, let's say you got a people issue, right? And until people are actually willing to talk about what the real issue is, you know, that people issue might not be the person, you know, I mean, it may or may not be there, but there could be a lot of different reasons for that people issue. And so often we get hung up thinking, I'm afraid to talk about that person because they'll think I'm. I think they're a bad person. Like, no, they could be an awesome person. You might love them as a human being and think they're the, the best person in the world, but they're just not the best person here. And until we can get people through that, you're not going to really talk about the really game changers in a business.
- [35:59]
Ryan Hogan
I struggled with that a lot, really, at Hunt a Killer. And it was this idea that, like, we had really good people on the team. And there was this constant kind of internal debate with myself, like, let's say we were missing a few rocks or we were missing a few KPIs or missing a few things on the scorecard. Like, I always had to go back to, is this me? Like, are we setting unrealistic expectations? Are we not setting the right rocks? Or is this, is this person not the right person? Like, when you're seeing that and you're seeing it from 10,000ft and you're kind of orchestrating all of this stuff, like how, how do you help organizations look at that people factor and determine? Like, all right, we did the people analyzer. Like, it's the perfect person, but they, they can't hit a KPI or, you know, a scorecard to, to life. Like, how do you help them navigate through the people issue?
- [36:52]
Matt Hanson
It's, it's a balance, right? Because on one hand, right, I've got a lot of years of experience and I've worked in different industries and different businesses, so I've Seen a flavor of different things and, and also working with other companies as my clients. But at the end of the day I only see them eight hours at a time. Every, you know, every so often I'm not there every day. And so I have to have that own humility about myself of thinking I'm not, you know, be all, end all. So there's that. But the other thing is you have to step into it and you kind of play like for example, I had a client where we, one session there was, there was somebody that was kind of an issue, right? Was on the leadership team, but then they're not really on the leadership team, so they're no longer in sessions. But the name would kind of come up. It's like, okay, let's do a people analyzer. Did a people analyzer. All right. You guys really think this feels like there's both a people issue and maybe a seat issue. Right. A right person and a right seat kind of issue going on here. What do you think? Well, you know, and so you kind of push on it, but you can't force it. Because if I try to force an issue, it's not going to work. Right. People get defensive and so the next time person comes up again, we talk about it again. And so it's kind of a situational thing to know how to push the boundary a little bit, being careful. Sometimes you can push too far and break the glass and that's not a good thing. But sometimes you got to push hard. And so it's, you just gotta have the sense of it. That's kind of how I approach it. But you have to have the bravery as in my role to actually point it out and say we do need to talk about this. But at the end of the day, it's their business. They're the ones making the call.
- [38:57]
Ryan Hogan
You talked a little bit about this idea of like, you know, somebody was maybe at the SLT then, then came down like how, how do you see organizations? This happened a lot. For me, this might actually be a self serving question, so I'll apologize to both you and the audience in advance. The organizations that, that I've run, I've been fortunate that they've grown very fast and the, the chaos and the turmoil that that always creates inside of the organization is, is a lot. The critical issue has always been the team, which is like the team that can build a, a, a $5 million company versus 10 versus 25 versus 50 like it. The dynamics of that are constantly changing. What's your kind of philosophy? Or approach to that. Like, like someone's brought onto the SLT and they qualify. They got it, they want it, they've got the capability and they're the right person. They fit the core values and the behaviors of the organization and then boom, like now we're beyond their capabilities. Like what's kind of your approach to that?
- [40:03]
Matt Hanson
Where we have to go back to, we talk about vision, people and data and that's strong. The business becomes transparent and so we have to point back to those things. So okay, a person. Is the department they're running. The KPIs measurables that they're responsible for. Are they hitting those or not? How are you measuring them if they're not hitting their numbers? Okay, what's that tell us? There can be a lot of reasons. Could be they're the greater the job and I don't Covid happens and nobody's flying in airplanes. Well, you're not going to sell many spare parts to airplane companies at that point point or aviation companies. So there could be circumstances. But we got to have the data right and keep going back to that. It can't be a perception based thing because of, you know, whatever. And I think that's where it's got to go back to a lot of times is we've got to use their data. Going back to the tools, right? One of the sayings we use a lot answers in the tools. Go back to the tools, get them to look at the tools, make sure they're using the tools as well as they can and they're being open and honest and about those conversations and when they're not using the tools well and they're not being open and honest then saying okay guys, coach time, you got to step up.
- [41:29]
Ryan Hogan
Do you look for, I realize like your background from the aviation and, and a lot of engineering. Like do you have a certain kind of ideal client profile that you look for? Are you agnostic? Like what do you look for in clients?
- [41:46]
Matt Hanson
So I am, I'm at the at heart, I am agnostic. The thing that I love. So I've, I've got, you know, nonprofits and all sorts of different people I work with. But, but the thing that always kind of, it tickles a different itch is I, I love working with people that make things, that design things.
- [42:11]
Ryan Hogan
So.
- [42:11]
Matt Hanson
And you know, I come from, I, I live in Seattle now but. Or I live in Everett now. But I, I grew up in Iowa. Both my parents grew up on farms. I grew up in the country. First job I ever had was in third grade, I was on the back of the hay rack stacking hay for my dad. I thought it was a blast. It was fun. I feel I wasn't strong enough to lift it all the way up, but it was great, right? So I kind of have. I worked as a carpenter in college, so I have kind of this work with your hands, dirt on your fingernails, build stuff kind of mentality. And so I have a special place in my heart for people that actually are out there working hard and getting dirty, whether it's a factory, construction, all that kind of stuff. I. I like that. But I do work with everybody.
- [43:06]
Ryan Hogan
And do you look for people that are in and around the Pacific Northwest, Seattle, Everett, or are you like, listen, we live in the days of zoom, and we can do this anywhere.
- [43:16]
Matt Hanson
I spent, what, 25 years traveling all over the world. I'd had clients on six continents, right? So I'd worked with people all over the world and traveled all over the place. And so I like to travel. And so I'll. I will work and actually like to go. Like, I know people. I'll do virtual sessions and all that kind of stuff. I do actually like to go travel to people because I miss a little bit of that, but I go everywhere.
- [43:44]
Ryan Hogan
All right, so someone just listened to this. To this amazing recording, which, by the way, was not just your journey, but also, like, how you apply these different things throughout life and then how that translated into not just values, but this next chapter that you have of, like, making an impact. And. And I love what you said there, like, titles and awards and all these different things, like, yeah, sure, like, first half of your career, second half, like, what good can I do? And what impact can I leave? So someone just listen to the impact that. That you're making, Matt. How do they get ahold of you?
- [44:22]
Matt Hanson
Well, you can call me Old School 615-513-3892. That's a great way to get a hold of me or matt hansonos worldwide.com but thanks for.
- [44:34]
Ryan Hogan
For taking the time and an hour out of your day to come on and share your journey, share this amazing knowledge and experience. And, yeah, it was great.
- [44:43]
Matt Hanson
I appreciate the opportunity. It was. It was super fun. Thank you very much.