← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E24 | Purpose Over Profit: Why People Leave Bosses Not Companies with Curt Swindoll
01:04:15
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- [00:00]
Kurt Swindoll
Do I want to have a great job or do I want to have the best job I've ever had? Do I want to work for a nice boss or do I want to work for a guy, a gal? I'll never leave. We know through study after study, people leave companies because of who they work for. Not really surprising, right? And so what does it look like to be not just a good leader, a strong leader, an experienced leader, a great leader?
- [00:35]
Ryan Hogan
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. So one of the things that I wanted to, like when I looked at your background and a lot of other things that you've been up to for quite a few years, some time it's been like really, really kind of concentrated or focused in the nonprofit space. And just out of personal curiosity, like, like, how does that, how does that happen? Like, did it, did an opportunity at a certain point strike and then you worked your way up in the nonprofit to coo or, or did you intentionally get into the space? Like, what, what was that journey like?
- [01:15]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah, that's a, it's a great question. Yeah. Nobody gets, nobody is born and you know, as a young girl or boy says, I want to work for a nonprofit, when I suppose there are a few that do, but I was certainly not one of them. And I went to work for an organization and I really saw it as a stepping stone. I thought, oh, there's a good opportunity. I'll do this for a little bit and, and did it for a little bit and then a little bit longer and a little bit longer. And you know, found a lot of people that are very, very dedicated to, to that work and passionate about it, committed to it, all different kinds of nonprofits. And I started a fundraising agency. Actually, I started an Agency in 2000 and what I wanted to do is what I'm doing now. But EOS didn't exist back in 2000 and so I started doing it and that was to do organization development work for non profits. And so I'd been a part of it for a long time. I care about the work of nonprofits. I think nonprofits are trying to solve some of the world's hardest problems. So we don't think of them that way. We think of them as small, often somewhat insignificant, kind of scratching their way through life, these kinds of things. In reality, they're Trying to solve, at times, global issues that are very, very challenging and complicated. And I'm intrigued by those kinds of challenges. So I think that's one reason I'm drawn to, you know, the service and support of nonprofits and what they do.
- [03:02]
Ryan Hogan
What's interesting about what you just said there is the problems that they are solving are oftentimes, like, global. They are complex, and it impacts a lot of people. Like, why nonprofits versus profits? Why do the nonprofits take on those types of challenges versus capitalism and all these other things that exist that we promote as this way to solve big, tough problems?
- [03:29]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah, well, you know, first and foremost are the funding models around it. They're. How do you. How do you monetize curing the world of malaria? You know, how do you monetize feeding the poor wherever they may be in your inner city, in. In another country? Oftentimes there's. There's not a. There's not a financial model. Now. I think there's some really creative, interesting stuff going on in the world of impact investing right now, where we're trying to find really interesting financial models that overlay with these nonprofit models and, and create means to. To fund them other than philanthropically or through grants or. Or the like. So that's a. That's an intriguing and fast growing area to be the world of impact investing, where these, where these two things are trying to come together. But often, Ryan, at least traditionally speaking, it's been a challenge to figure out how to. How to fund some of the needs that exist in this world. So nonprofits often take up that challenge and look for people who are passionate enough and care enough about it to volunteer their time and to give philanthropically to support that work.
- [05:04]
Ryan Hogan
When you kind of stumbled into your first nonprofit, and it sounds like you stayed, you stayed for a little bit and then a little bit longer, then a little bit longer. Hey, have you. Is there like a certain, I don't know, like, deeper sense of purpose or gratification that you get out of. Out of these. Do you think the problems are, like, harder and you like harder challenges? Like what. When after you got past that point where you're like, oh, this isn't a stepping stone, like, this is maybe my calling on this earth. What was it that had you stayed?
- [05:42]
Kurt Swindoll
Well, I think calling is a sense of it. I mean, you feel. You. You feel very. You feel very purposeful about it. And there are many people in the nonprofit sector that certainly feel that way. They care very deeply about the cause that they're associated with. There are causes that are all along the political spectrum and so they're, you know, not every cause is a, a cause that people are passionate about or care about or even believe in. But when you find that thing that you do care about and believe in it, it's, it can be a tough thing. It can be a tough thing to find a similar kind of passion or sense of calling in a for profit world where we're, we're selling our time or we're selling widgets of some sort of. Right. So I think there's something very arresting about being involved with a cause that you, that you care a lot about. You know, interestingly, I think it's a, it's a, it's something that for profit enterprises are learning about from, from non profit enterprises that we need to be about more than just, you know, financial transaction of more than just a paycheck. So we ask all of our clients, hey, what's your purpose, cause or passion? What do you care about in doing this work that really transcends earning a living, you know, putting food on the table, those kinds of things. Why is this work important to you? And see if we can tap into something at a very root level. I'll give you a, Can I give you a quick story about this?
- [07:38]
Ryan Hogan
Please do.
- [07:39]
Kurt Swindoll
I was, I was working with a client that is a custom home builder. And these are modest custom homes. These are, these aren't palaces. These are, these are modest, you know, 3,000 foot, which is a nice size home. But you know, we're not talking 10, 12,000 square foot. But I asked him what, what's your, what's your purpose, cause or passion? And we kind of fumbled around that for a little bit. And in the end he identified that, that the home is a place of sanctuary and security. Where families find their story. And when he said that like, he started to cry. Like this touched him in such a deeply meaningful place that we're not just, you know, building four walls and a roof, we're creating places of sanctuary and security where families actually find their story. And all of a sudden it lit this fire in him. I think he'll become one of the largest home builders someday and it may be driven off of this sense of purpose behind what he's doing as a, as an enterprise. So I think there's a lot that for profits can learn from non profits in some of these ways.
- [09:26]
Ryan Hogan
What do you think that they're, you know, as they're. And I'm sure they were doing somewhat well because usually when companies are Self implementing or just discovering and then they go and they make the commitment to bring in an EOS implementer. They're, they're generally a certain size, they're, they're greater than, than a couple people and a couple hundred thousand dollars business. Like what, what do you think powered them? Do you think that this was always kind of the undercurrent or, or what was there that needed to be out or like articulated? Or did they have a completely different perception of their purpose before you were able to stumble upon this with them?
- [10:02]
Kurt Swindoll
First? They actually hired me fairly early, really early in their, in their evolution. They were at two people as a matter of fact.
- [10:14]
Ryan Hogan
Oh gosh.
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Kurt Swindoll
Yeah.
- [10:15]
Ryan Hogan
Wow.
- [10:15]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah. And not pre revenue, but certainly in the early stages of development. They built a few homes by then, but certainly in a very vulnerable place in that situation. A big part of it was, I have a long standing relationship with the founder, you know, going back, oh gosh, 20 years, 20, 25 years. And so trust, which isn't that at the cornerstone of a lot of relationships that we have? So in that case, I think I, you know, I think that's what it is. I think in other cases I, I've asked that question of leaders and they kind of look at me cross eyed like, is there something we're supposed to know that, you know, we're just, we're just earning a living around here, you know, and that's okay, that's all right. I think we're, we're, we're just trying to tap into what you might call a superpower. And that is a transcendent reason for the work we do that attracts great talent and great effort and, and when we do that, we are doing something money can't buy. I have seen people with phenomenal pedigrees in their career go to work for non profits, making a fraction, a small fraction of what they used to make because now they feel like their work actually has meaning. And so I think that that's available to any enterprise in figuring out what, what's particularly meaningful to this work, that that gives us a reason for showing up and working hard every day.
- [12:20]
Ryan Hogan
The companies that you've worked with that haven't had it, or haven't had it in place or, or you know, have gone years and years and probably making great money and, and doing interesting things. Is it, is it there or are they, I don't want to say like zombie companies, but like, what is a company that, that is quote unquote, successful through the lens of whatever society considers a successful company but doesn't have a. Like how. How do they exist or how are they thriving if they don't have this North Star or understanding of, like, the deeper purpose of why they exist?
- [12:59]
Kurt Swindoll
Well, I certainly think sometimes we tap into something that is an extraordinary idea and there's an extraordinary demand for it on the marketplace, and we just ride that wave. So I think sometimes it just kind of consumes us and takes over. I think sometimes we do work that is familiar to us, work that our mother or father did, work that they cared about, and we carry on almost a sense of legacy. I, I'm, I'm getting ready to read a really interesting book on the idea of what's called memetic desire, which is the innate desire that human beings have to imitate another person. And this is. I, I'm not, I'm not much into the book at all yet, so I don't know really where this comes from, but. But apparently it's enough to explain why a lot of people do a lot of things. And certainly it explains the, you know, the influencer world that we live in today where, where whether it's tick tock or something else, we see people and we want to imitate them. We want to experience some aspect of their life and their experience and that kind of thing. So I think sometimes that's a driver for why people do what they do. Certainly, you know, certainly money can be, can be a, can be a driving force. I just find that there's a point at which loses it, you know, it loses interest. And for many people, it's not a factor. Right. And so right off the bat, you're missing the opportunity to tap into a huge swath of the marketplace that is interested in doing something more than just, you know, turning out widgets. You know, whether or not you agree with him, Elon Musk is an example today of someone who doesn't just create a business. He creates it for a reason that he is. He is passionate about, about exploring new frontiers in the work that he does. And he finds people that are interested in exploring that. You know, with him doing very difficult, complicated things along the way, I just think a lot of businesses would be served better, served by evaluating how, how can we bring that sense of purpose into the work that we do, infuse it into even who we are and how we define our culture, such that we may be able to invite others to become a part of that sense of mission.
- [15:54]
Ryan Hogan
I agree with you. We've had a lot of talks internally about this very thing. Where, and this has happened throughout my journey. I had a company at one point called Run for your Lives. It was a zombie infested 5K obstacle course, horse race. And then we got into murder mysteries. It was called hunt a killer behind the scenes. It was not a, an adventure race or a murder mystery game. Like what, what we promoted internally and at the culture is like we're, we're bringing people together and we're doing so in a way in which like, we can create memories and amazing experiences that they will cherish forever. And there's one thing we always used to like to talk about is like, memories and experiences are generally one of the rare things that appreciate over time. It's something that we look back on and they become these kind of core.
- [16:48]
Kurt Swindoll
Memories or core moments before we move on. I think that this is, isn't this where the world of music is right now? Musicians used to make a living off of the sale of, you know, CDs and records and that kind of thing. Right now they make it off of experiences. Did you see this particular tour? Do you experience it? And the merch part of that, that underscores and makes that experience, that engagement, that shared experience live on. My son is involved in the, in the music industry and I, I think he would go to a, to a home concert every single night if he could because it's such an intimate shared experience with the people that are there. Right. Like you said, it can be a lifelong kind of sense about it. So yeah, I, I, I love that. And by the way, I don't think companies should get lost in all of that. That gives us, that gives us a sense of purpose. But at the end of the day, we're still going to ask you, what's your niche? In three words, how would you define what you do? Two adjectives and a noun. And I think that becomes a really interesting way to say, okay, we've got this sense of purpose about what we do, but we still can describe it in very, very simple terms.
- [18:20]
Ryan Hogan
How do you balance? Like even today. So somehow I have stumbled into the recruiting industry. And even today, when we look at our core, like what, what we talk about on a weekly basis is this idea that we are making a positive impact in people's lives. Like we, every time we get a placement, like we have changed someone's entire trajectory and it's something that we're proud of and something that we get very fired up about. What, when you think about a company that's got its, you know, you've got its Purpose you just talked about a little bit. Like that can't be the thing that, that can be like the, the North Star. It's like, it's like why we exist. But it can't be the end all. Be all. How, how do you balance, like, I don't want to say the brutal nature, but the natural nature of business, which generally lives in a P and L. And like hard decisions have to get made and hard decisions that impact people's lives and still like be able to promote. Hey, we're doing this amazing thing. Oh, but by the way, we're still a business.
- [19:22]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah. I think we have to connect those two, you know, those two pieces to each other. If we're not, if we're not engaged in our business, then I mean, what are we doing? I think Webster has a definition for business that it's a group of people committed to a common cause. And so any business or non profit is defined that way in, in effect. Right. We, we're, we're. And if we're not, if we're not connected to that common cause, then then I don't know that there is a business. But at the same time we've got to understand what it is that we do. So, so I connect those two things to each other. I say, let's take that three word. So I'll give you an example of this, that three word summary of that niche. So I was having a conversation with my son who's involved in a high end audio retail establishment here in Dallas. I mean, high end, I, I live vicariously through them. I go to their shop and listen to incredible music, incredible, you know, sound and all of that. So I was, I was kind of practicing on him one day and I said, Landon, give me three words that describes your business. Two adjectives and a noun. And that rascal, he answered me in like five seconds. He said, oh, I think it's bespoke musical experiences. Bespoke unique, tailored, customized music musical experiences. We create bespoke musical experiences. So I thought, well, I'll get them on this one. So why do you do that? Right? I'm asking what is this purpose? Cause or passion? What's your purpose? Cause, like why is that even important? He said, well, dad, it's because music changes people. So it's not just about music changing people. And by the way, whether or not you agree with that, if you do agree with it, you, you may frequent his store. If you don't, then the store isn't for you. Right. Which is fine. It's Fine. There are a lot of people that aren't moved by music, but they're, thankfully for him, there are a lot of the people that are. But it's in connecting those two things, right? Bespoke musical experiences. Because music changes people or music changes people, which is why we create bespoke musical experiences. Those two things kind of go together. And I think it is in bringing those two pieces together that we find what we call a core focus in the os. We find that plumb line that keeps us connected to what we have a very deep sense of commitment to and the core of what will help us do that or accomplish that. So I think it's not forgetting about one or the other. It's keeping both, both in mind. The day that my son's business forgets to create bespoke musical experiences, right, Is the day they stop changing as many people who are moved by that music. It's. It's the way they get that, that done. And so I think that that's a really captivating idea in how these pieces fit and work together to comprise a whole. It would feel like, it would feel like half the yin yang was missing if you had only one or the other of those pieces, right? A very simple understanding. In eos, we talk about Orville Redenbacher says it's popcorn. So don't bring them a candy idea, bring them another popcorn idea. Popcorn flavorings, popcorn oil, popcorn kernels. As long as it's popcorn, Uncle Orville's going to be really interested. But as soon as we sway away from that, right, we lose our sense of what's really core about our business and we stop having the purpose, cause, or fashion the effect that we want that business to ultimately have.
- [23:53]
Ryan Hogan
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent? Or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah. I was too, at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds, if not thousands of resumes. But we find that, that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting as a service, we do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out at to talent harbor.com that's talent harbor. T A L E N T H A r b o r.com let's get your next sales superstar hired. Do you think the people that work in and around with your son, is this something that he has communicated out loud before? Do you just think that it's like, it's who they are therefore, like those types of people are naturally customers. Those types of people naturally come in and become teammates. Like or after you and him went through this epiphany, did he run back and paint it on the wall and communicate to frequently?
- [25:46]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah, I think when we reduce these things to wall art, right. It becomes a checkbox in our environment. So I remind clients all the time, this isn't about wall art. It's. It's fine if you want to put some of these things up on the wall, but that isn't going to make it so. Right. Are we hiring people around these ideas? And so that's the, that's the way that we create a sense of shared space here. We hire people who care about it, we emphasize it in our conversations and I think little by little it just begins to exude through our pores. It's the way we talk. In his case, it's the way we talk about music. It's why we talk about equipment. It's why we talk about the acoustics of the room. It's why we talk about the kind of music you love listening to. It's how you listen to music. And so it's a hundred questions around all of that that allows us to in the end create a bespoke musical experience without calling that out. Right. It's just, it's evident everywhere you look. And that's what I love about business and the group of people committed to a common cause. At the end of the day, I think it is one of the most beautiful things in the world work. When you see people working like dancers playing out a choreographed piece on stage. Everyone has their role. They move in response to each other. They fit together. And it is a dance that creates something inimitable, unforgettable. I want, I want my business to be like that. I say on my LinkedIn page, I want people to have fun Again, and to me, this is how we have fun. Maybe it's not for everybody else, but I think for my clients, this is what having fun looks like. We recover our passion, we simplify the nature of what we do, and we get everybody on board and with it and excited about it. And it's not easy. It's a, it's a really difficult thing to do. But when it happens, like, it's happened once in my whole career, Ryan. 40 years. That many times? Yeah, it's not easy. We had the time of our lives doing it. By the way, I still get together with guys 25 years later that I worked with in that one situation. You know, we shared something special.
- [28:56]
Ryan Hogan
I know you can't, you can't see my face, but, one, you are an amazing storyteller. So as you're going through, like, I'm just lighting up over here because, like, I, I, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I know about this from both of my careers in the Navy. Like, there are, there are, I'm still connected to people at specific units, at specific times in my past where, like, we have reunions and get together, and that's not consistent across every single unit that I was a part of. There's just something, like, magical sometimes that comes together, and it's this perfect harmony of, like, the right leader setting the right vision, and, and everybody just rowing in the same direction. And it, it also goes to it in business. Like, one of the, One of the most common questions I get nowadays is like, hey, how do you, how do you go from murder mysteries to recruiting? And my response to that is like, for me, it's never been about the business. For me, it's about, like, setting a vision, changing people's lives, and solving very hard problems with incredible human beings. And so that's why I was smiling so much as you're talking about this, like, this dance that happens in this magical moment, because for me, it's never been about the business. It's been about, like, trying to create those moments and just having incredibly brilliant people all focused on solving the same problem. And, yeah, I didn't even realize that's where the conversation was going to go today. But, like, I feel you on that.
- [30:23]
Kurt Swindoll
Isn't that fun? I don't think there's anything more fun than being able to look around a table, see people you love, and you all love doing the same thing. I don't. I just don't. There just is not much more. Certainly there are great things personally in life, and Home and family and things like that for. For many people. Not all, but for many people. But, you know, we spend an awful lot of time at work. An awful lot of time. Too much time for us to just show up, get some job done, and go home so we can live again. Right? How do we find a life that. That has a transcendent quality to it at work as well as at home? And when I can sit around a table of leaders, and by extension, I feel like I'm a part of that team. And I see people who love each other, who trust each other, who care about the same things, who want the same things, and who are humble enough to be open, honest, to learn from each other and all that, man, I just don't think it gets. It gets much better than that. And that's just so. It's so fun. And you race to the next thing not because somebody's eating your rear end, right? But because you can hardly wait for it because it's an internal engine that knows no quit.
- [32:26]
Ryan Hogan
And this might be a slightly rephrased question for something I touched on earlier, because we were talking a little bit about how do we reconcile the business, the P and L, and all this. This amazing energy. Everything that's, like, at the top of the vto, where it's just, like. It's most pure, like, bringing it back to, like, the business's business. Sometimes the things that. That are getting in the way of that are other people that are on the team. And so, like, tough decisions at that point have to be made in order to try and get to this, like, euphoric or, like, this magical moment when someone's almost there, but they've identified problems. How do they balance some of the disruption and turmoil that naturally comes as part of some strategic shifts that need to happen internally versus making sure that everybody understands that, guys, this does not change who we are, where we're going. We needed to make a change.
- [33:33]
Kurt Swindoll
No, it's a. It's. It's actually a part of it. It's a part of it. So these things, these. These. These dances don't come without changing the dancers sometimes, right? Without altering the choreography. These. These presentations, if you will, we can extend the analogy that way. They don't happen without a million decisions and some painful and difficult decisions along the way. We just have to understand that they're all a part of serving this. This higher cause that we're. That we're. We're after. Years ago, EOS did a study, and they found that 90% of all business issues relate back to people. It's not surprising. It's not surprising. What is a business if it's not, you know, people? Right. So inevitably there will be hard conversations, challenging conversations. But I think the greater question is, how can you have that hard conversation if you don't have a higher sense of purpose or cause or passion to motivate it? I, I don't, I don't, I don't know how people do it. In fact, what we know is that a lot of people don't. We say when you have a people issue, there's really only one of four things you can do. You can coach that person, you can move them into a different role. If it's a problem with the role that they're in, you can terminate them or you tolerate them. And at least in my experience, the vast majority of time, we're just endlessly tolerating the people issues that we have. Why there's no sense of anything really motivating. A sense of urgency, a need to resolve or fix this. So I think when you bring in this, this sense of transcendent purpose or meaning to a business, it actually gives a reason for why we should have these conversations. Those conversations don't detract from what we're trying to accomplish. They are a part of what we're trying to accomplish.
- [35:57]
Ryan Hogan
You know, one of the, one of the things that, that we've done probably since Run for your lives, it probably started in hunt to killer, especially when we were self implementing and then went and found an amazing implementer and definitely here, here at Talent harbor. But every, every week we bring Everybody together for 30 minutes and, and we do a couple of different things. One, I would hate to say recite, because I don't think it's exactly reciting, but we talk about our core values and what we do is because, like, I feel like if you just say them, it's the same as putting them on a wall. I feel like you have to create the moments in which you can share someone else's decision or action that was in line so people can actually start to see, like, what it means to show up in whatever that value is. One of the things that started to pop out in the run for your lives days is people were like, did I join a cult? Especially new folks. And, and like, what do you, what do you say? What do you say to that?
- [37:00]
Kurt Swindoll
Oh, gosh, I say, I suppose in some respects you did. Yeah. You know, we're all pretty passionate here about the glue and, and not just about the Threads. These are the things that draw us together, that knit our hearts together. We care deeply about this and if you don't, that's okay. I don't know that it's. You're going to be a fit. Who was it? It was Jim Collins. That said in good to great, core values are like a magnet that either attract us or spit us out to the curb. So, yeah, I think our values are either going to be a source of. Of meaning because it's something that holds us together. It's a commitment we've made of how we're going to interact with each other, or we're going to go like, that's not for me and that's fine. There are millions of companies out there to work, to work with and for. Right. This just isn't one of them. And I think that's helpful to you and it's helpful to the other person because at the end of the day, man, I am looking for people who want to run with me, stride for stride. I am not interested in dragging people around the track. They are running with me. Sounds like you had that. That's pretty cool.
- [38:53]
Ryan Hogan
Yeah, well, we would have to. I've done a lot of reflection on that question because I'm like. And then I would be like, oh, well, then in my brain, at least not out loud, I'd be like, like, oh, well, what's. What is the difference between a cult and. And like what we're creating? And like, I, I agree. And. And those are kind of like what you were talking about earlier of like those magical moments. It was actually weirdly when people are like, did I join a cult and be like, yeah, you kind of did. And, and that was what I felt was sort of the driver behind. Behind some of those things.
- [39:24]
Kurt Swindoll
I mean, we're not going to come after you or something. I mean, it's a free.
- [39:28]
Ryan Hogan
Free.
- [39:28]
Kurt Swindoll
It's a free world. You're free to. You're free to leave. Right. And so in that sense, it's not. In that sense, it's. There's not a supreme leader or something that is. Has created, you know, mind in a brainwashing here or something like that. But yeah, we all care about the same things. We care about them deeply, we talk about them a lot because it's a part of the way we reinforce them and we ensure that the people here are fit. And I don't know how to do it without that being a regular part of the conversation. So whether it's a 30 minute, you know, weekly meeting or, or A monthly state of the company or something like that. We got to talk about them. We got to talk about people caught in the act of doing something great. We got to talk about what they look like and what they don't look like. These values, this sense of focus that we have in common, and we should be hiring with those things in mind. We shouldn't surprise anyone. We should be asking a whole lot of questions around those values, such that somebody who comes on board understands what they're coming on board to. They're coming on board to an organization that is just short of neurotic about. About these things. We believe in them so passionately and deeply. So it's. It's more than words on a page. What Jack Welch in. In. In talking about his experience at ge, said, I used to talk about. About the vision till I thought I would throw up. It's kind of what you have to do when you have 300,000 employees like he had back in the day. You know, you have to talk about it over and over and over and over again. It's just a part of leadership, and it's a part of getting people on board with it.
- [41:34]
Ryan Hogan
So there. There was. It's so funny you brought that up. There was a general. I think about this all the time. There was a general that was doing a. A speaking up. I forget where I was. I might have been deployed. But one of the things that he was talking about is he's like, I say things, and I do not stop saying whatever that specific thing is until I see my soldier's eyes. Now, I'm in the Navy, so we have seamen and sailors. They've got soldiers. But he's like, I will repeat that until I see eye rolls. And he was like, I am now celebrating that I'm getting eye rolls, because they've heard it so many times that it's become second nature. But it goes to exactly what you just said, where it's like you just. You repeat over and over and over and over again.
- [42:18]
Kurt Swindoll
You know, Ryan Eos used to say, we have to. You have to repeat it seven times. And that's kind of in the common vernacular. More recent studies have shown you got to say it 70 times. 70 times, not seven. You got to say it and hear it and read it and write it. You know, it's. It. It. It has to. It has to hit in all of your senses multiple times and in different ways before it ultimately penetrates, you know, to someplace real, real deep. So, yeah, I. He's to be applauded for that. We got to say it over and over. I think Lynchione talks about that in the four obsessions of extraordinary executive. Right? Clarify the vision and then. And then communicate it over and over and over again. Same idea.
- [43:05]
Ryan Hogan
So, like, once you've found your purpose, like, who should. Who and how should you be communicating? Because we've talked a lot about, like, this idea of, like, you know, if you want to put them on the wall, that's great, but that's not, that's not what these are for. Is this. When you think about the purpose of the company, is this something that, that somebody should be coming up every week, every month and just saying, like, everybody, oh, this is why we exist. Is this something that the visionary and the integrator should just be doing quarterly along the leadership team? And that'll naturally permeate down. Like, how do you think about the communication of some of these things?
- [43:42]
Kurt Swindoll
So I certainly think that the. I certainly think that the. Usually the visionary, possibly the integrator, but often the visionary is kind of the center of the culture, is the cornerstone of the culture, and their voice becomes extremely important in the. At least in the initiation of the communication. But I was talking with an integrator who works at one of my clients just today, and she said somebody came to them and was saying, you know, we're doing this in our department, but this doesn't feel like this is in alignment with our values. And isn't that ultimately what we want here? Right. Well, it's not about just talking about it. It's about how we make decisions and the kinds of decisions that we make. And I think that that's what we look for. At the end of the day, communication is the start of the process, but action is maybe the end of it. What actions are we taking and how are actions motivated by our values and, and by what it is that we're ultimately trying to accomplish? You know, EOS says that we've not seen a correlation in personality style and leadership ability. We. We have not seen a correlation. Like you. You know, we often think of the type A leader, like, that's the great leader. He's out in front, you know, he's just driving, drive, you know. Nope, we haven't seen that. They can be great leaders, but so can the quieter person, the person who's softer spoken, the introvert versus the extrovert. We've not seen a correlation there. What we have seen a correlation with is that, number one, you really love your people and you care about them truly, deeply care. About them. And number two, you're committed to getting a little bit better every day. That, that's what we believe sits at the heart of great, of great leadership. So when you take leaders like that and communicate the core essence of who the business is, the lifeblood of the business, the DNA of the business, and you do that effectively, then what we ought to be seeing at the end of the day is how people are using that information to make decisions and to operate and to execute in alignment with, with that DNA. And that's ultimately, I think, what we're, what we're after here. So it drives the reason we make hard decisions and tough calls. It drives the reason that we have a sense of urgency around what we do. It drives when we come to a why in the road do we act this way or do we act that way? It is defining and guiding all of that. So I think that's what, you know, I guess this whole thing is about. I don't know if that answers the question or not, but I think that the, the idea here is that, is that communication is just the start of the process. But when we talk about what our values actually look like, like, right. We're not defining them with language as much as we are defining them by action. What they look like and what they don't look like in real life. That's why I think those, that's so important.
- [47:45]
Ryan Hogan
And it's like this, like inclusion, like feeling included and, and feeling like you're a part of, of that mission. My, my current Navy ball, so I'm still in the Navy. I just do the Navy Reserve thing and my boss is a captain. It's the first time in my 23 years of military career that I've heard this and it was just so powerful because I was looking around at the faces and expressions of other people and he said, everybody here, you belong here. And there was just something like you felt like you were a part of everything that the unit, the commands for. And I have since stolen that. So I have this notebook where I keep all these good ideas and, and it's something that I'm going to continue to, to carry with me.
- [48:34]
Kurt Swindoll
A quick response to that. You know, I've, I've heard businesses, certainly many, many non profits, talk about the people in the organization as a family. And, and I have a love hate relationship with that idea because we don't fire family members. Right. But there are certainly many other things that, that are a part of that analogy, that sense of identity and connectedness. You know, we share A last name, if you will. That last name being represented by our purpose, cause or passion, our values, our target, what we're going after, how we'll measure success, the trust that we have with each other. You know, many, many things like that. And so anyway, I just was, I was just kind of finding myself responding. There's a lot of reasons why the idea of family can get us into trouble and keep us from making some of the people decisions that we really should be making. But there's a lot of reasons why it reinforces what some of the better aspects of what we're trying to accomplish. Yeah.
- [49:49]
Ryan Hogan
And I feel like, all right, I'm going to keep us on this path. What I really wanted to do was turn it on to some of your focus areas at this. But this is such a great conversation because some of the tension that I think the two questions that we've kind of walked down is this idea of the tension that exists between core values and business fundamentals, vision and purpose and niche against like good, good business principles. And there's this constant tension. And one of the things I was going to ask because you brought this up maybe two or three times now, this idea of love and like, that's a very powerful word, one that's usually used with, with family. I also agree with you, like some. I used to be enlisted. I was prior enlisted, they call us Mustang. So I went through the enlisted ranks and then eventually got a commissioning and, and I've seen like how not to do it many times while I was enlisted. And so I've changed a lot of the, the ways in which like I will lead and, and a lot of that starts with genuine care. Like so many times throughout my career I was like, gosh, if this, if this guy or gal only gave a. About me, like, like maybe I would care about the mission or the, or the purpose. You brought it up though. And, and like what place does love have in business?
- [51:12]
Kurt Swindoll
Well, I believe that everything we do, we do from either a place of love or fear. So I've, I have operated in a couple of situations in my career where fear was a significant motivator and, and it changed me and not for the better. My wife called it out. She saw it in me, maybe before even I did. I hope I'm a more reflective person today than I was in years past, but she's a wonderful partner for me in calling that kind of thing out. And you know, the fear in this environment is changing you. And so I've thought a lot about these things in Part because of my own experience. So I think it. I think it has a very significant place. Right. These are extreme words. These aren't words like like and good and average. These are words that really drive us to ask the question, am I making this decision from a place of fear or a place of love? Am I making this decision out of a place of scarcity or a place of abundance where there's enough for everyone? Am I making this decision from a place of anxiety or peace? I think is another way that this looks. I was talking to someone, I'll just say someone close to me recently, and she is in the midst of a business situation that's really difficult, and she's feeling kind of pissy about it, and understandably so. Like, it doesn't mean that just because we want to operate out of this place of love that we are passive or unresponsive to the things that are happening around us that are hurtful or painful because those things happen. But my caution to her was to breathe. You need to pause. I don't want you to say something you regret. I don't want you to say something from a place of anger. I think it's fine to feel anger, and you have some things to feel angry about, but at the end of the day, how do we respond to this situation from this place of love and abundance and peace and things that will change the nature of how I communicate this? I don't. I. I'm not saying that these words mean that you don't fire someone or you don't make hard decisions like that. Actually, I think that when we terminate someone who is not a fit, it can be a real loving thing to do because they're probably not enjoying this any more than we are. It's a. It's a. It. It's certainly isn't a place where they're thriving. And that's what I want people to experience. And I think that when we. When we love our colleagues, when we care for them that deeply, when we trust them that much, it opens the door for all of these other things to exist, for us to be able to say the hard thing and attack the problem and not the person to be able to make. Make hard decisions, to call people to work harder than they might otherwise. Right. Because something is at stake and we're asking them for a worthwhile purpose and not out of a place of. Of selfishness. You know, I. I don't know. These are the kinds of businesses I want to be a part of. These are. These are the kinds of businesses I want to help create. These are the kind of leaders I want to work with. May not be for everyone. I really don't care. I'm pretty busy because I think that the companies that I work with, the organizations that I work with, do care about these things. And we are fighting for the creation of these kinds of cultures. We care very deeply about them. I laugh and I cry with my clients and I don't hide that. I'm not embarrassed by that. I just, I care that deeply about it. I would hope that people who hire me want me to show up and bring every part of myself. Not just some hard ass leader. Right. But someone who loves them and cares deeply for them. And I think when we do that, we have a chance to make magic happen.
- [56:54]
Ryan Hogan
I have so many more questions. We can't, like we have just at least for half a second. We have to get to you. We know by now the cat's out of the bag. You're an EOS implementer. What do you. Well, crap. We might have answered this question as well because you're doing a lot of great work in the non profit space and, and you kind of, you've like found your calling. What, where's your focus area? What do you look for in clients?
- [57:22]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah, thanks for asking. I don't want to bore people with this, but half of my work is with nonprofits, half of it is with for profits. I'm kind of curious by nature, so I'm a little like you, Ryan. I like getting involved in a lot of different things. And it's not about the thing, it's about the people I get to work with and the work I get to do. Right. So I've worked in professional services, so law firms and tax and tax advisory services and other kinds of professional services like that. I work with technology companies, which is professional services of a certain kind. I spent the early part of my career in technology and so I enjoy that too. I've worked with a couple of construction companies and I've never been involved in construction. And I'll hear any day now about another one that I might be able to work with. And so it doesn't really matter. I am curious. And so I almost have to be involved in a lot of different kinds of enterprises to keep me, you know, to keep that curiosity at bay. So. Because I just am. I love business and I love seeing people fit together. Like the dance that we've talked about. So that's. Yeah, those are the kinds of organizations I'm serving 2 to $50 million. I work with a client that's a couple of clients that are in the 100 million, 150 million dollar range. But many of our clients are in that 2 to 50 million, 10 to 250 people range. That's a sweet spot. But I told you earlier, I worked with a construction company that was two people. I've worked with the pre revenue technology startup and that's a lot of fun. I worked with a church that had two people on staff. I mean, it's a lot of different kinds of, kinds of environment and I just think it's a testimony to really a truly extraordinary operating system that, you know, Wickman created and how it can flex and bend to work in a lot of different kinds of environments.
- [59:33]
Ryan Hogan
Yes, 100% agree. I mean, EOS changed, changed my life. It was, it was Visage and Eos and my, my second company that, that found product market fit went to a whole different level because of those two things. Okay, so someone just listened to this whole thing, Kurt. And by the way, like we could go on because I was quickly, I know you can't see me, but I was quickly writing questions as you were going through. I was like, got to come back to that. Got to come back. We could have like a whole nother recording when you get back from Kauai just on some of these ideas. What if someone's been listening to this and they're like, you know what, I need some curt in my life. I need them to come take a look at this. How would they get a hold of you?
- [60:12]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah, well, eosworldwide.com has a directory of implementation implementers on it and I'm one of a number of them in the DFW area. So they could find me through that directory. My LinkedIn is, is Kurt Swindoll all one word on LinkedIn as it is? Right. But they could find me, find me there and I'm super responsive to that. Kurt.swindollosworldwide.com that's my email address. Happy to respond to that. And you find with all of us implementers, we're really here to be helpful and if it turns into a business relationship or partnership, that's, that's great. That's, you know, that's, that's kind of icing on the cake. But I love the work, work I do. I'm having more fun than I've ever had in my entire career. Maybe some of that is just kind of where I am in life and understanding that I don't want to operate in Places that are fear based. I want to operate in places that are love based. Certainly part of it is the work I do through eos and working with the teams I get to work with. I haven't counted, but I think it's probably around 150 leaders that I get to be around all the time. I learn from them and hopefully they learn a little something from me. So, yeah, that's how they can find me. And we'll be on again. Yeah. If this is really helpful, I hope we're not boring people to tears here. Ryan. I really, I care about this stuff. I know you do, but I, I hope that, you know, we've kind of touched on something that be helpful to people out there.
- [62:05]
Ryan Hogan
We did. And like, and usually I try and flesh these ideas out or concepts out in, in the pre call and so like, for today, I really thought we were going to have conversation about nonprofits and, and like some of the dynamics and challenges. But I love where, I love where this conversation took us for an hour because I, I don't think people think long and hard or enough about some of these concepts and they are game changer. It's like once you understand why you exist, like, people will naturally start coming out of the woodworks and want to be a part of that, whether they're clients, teammates. So no, I don't think we bored anybody, but I appreciate you.
- [62:43]
Kurt Swindoll
Yeah. You know, you want to work for a good company or do you want to work for the best company? Like, it's for. To me, that's like the difference that this is. You know, do I want to have a. Do I want to have a. A great job or do I want to have the best job I've ever had? Do I want to work for a nice boss or do I want to work for a guy, a gal? I'll never leave. We. We know through study after study, people leave companies because of who they work for. You know, not really surprising. Right. And so what does it look like to be not just a good leader, a strong leader, an experienced leader, a great leader, an amazing individual, an amazing human being. Right. And that's what I hope we're creating through, through the work that we do with eos and, and other things that I share with my clients as they, as they come up.
- [63:51]
Ryan Hogan
Thank you. Right. Before you go to Kauai. Thanks for spending over an hour with me and talking about these really important ideas and concepts and things that both you and I have seen kind of work throughout our careers.
- [64:04]
Kurt Swindoll
My privilege, Ryan. I hope we can do it again. I really do. I'd love to do that.