A (2:58)

Who?

B (2:59)

Margaret Dixon. So she was, she was our EOS implementer probably six, seven years ago, and she used to always say, like Mark o' Donnell would say with love and respect, and then a whole bunch of like, bad words were about to come out of his mouth. How, how do, how do you do, how do you create the environment kind of across all of those different types of groups to, like, make sure that people are having the right conversations?

A (3:24)

So first of all, they're the EOS tools which, you know, they create clarity around what's working and what's not working. But as far as how I do it, I've really never been afraid to enter the danger and open up, really create an environment where people are willing to get open and honest and vulnerable with each other. When you first walk into a room with a new leadership team, they are, they're reserved. They think, you know, oftentimes think they have to behave or the way they're engaging, maybe they're challenging each other, challenging each other in a way that it's just not working. But, you know, they have a construct. And one of my uniques is the ability with a high EQ to get people to open up and trust and have those conversations. One of my early clients, it was, I was in the D.C. area, it was a govcon client. The visionary leader walked out of session one and said, that's the first time we've ever had a real conversation. You know, we start with them, we get around. We, we. One of the things we teach them early on is right people, right seats. It comes in on day one. And when they can get objective about what really qualifies a right person in the right seat, that's, you know, that automatically opens up the need to be open and honest because you've got the facts in front of you, you've got the tools to work with, to coach people up or out, but just being able to create that environment and, you know, it's different with different teams. So some teams need to really be pushed to get real and honest, and some teams are just willing to go there. You want to do it in a way that is leading and strong, but with the eq, to know how to bring people along. Some people come reluctantly and it takes them a little longer. Some people need to be reassured that it's safe. And some people, you know, you have to pull back. You know, they're those visionary leaders that are just attacking their people. And it's like, this is. This is not working. How's this working for you?

B (5:46)

It's interesting because you talked about, like, the safe space and creating that and kind of bringing them along. And then also some of the epiphanies that, like, the leaders on the team have had. One of the things that I've struggled with quite a bit is, like, creating a safe environment when there's folks in the room that shouldn't be there. And it's like, I always used to feel like I was talking out of both sides of my mouth, because I'm like, hey, this is a safe environment. We're all here, we're working together. We're on the same side of the table. We're looking at the problem. But if that problem is someone that's in there, then it's like, I'm always like, well, how's that going to be perceived? Because I just said, everything's safe, but now that person's no longer here. How do you deal with, like, some of those dynamics?

A (6:32)

So, first of all, we start with that whole right person, right seats thing. Right people fit your core values, and right seats means that they get it, want to have the capacity to do their job. So you've got real objective clarity based on clear expectations about the seat in the accountability chart. And you've got your behaviors, you know, by the second session, you've got the behaviors you want to see that really represents a person who fits into your culture. So it's almost as if the system reveals itself in the session and it's hard for them not to acknowledge it. Now, when we start with a client, we say, less is more. We always say, less is more. But in terms of who should be brought into that meeting, because you really only want to start EOs with those strategic leaders who are going to move forward with you, who are aligned with you, who will be the ones to chart that next course. So. So I'm starting with a new client this month who they said, yeah, it's just the two of us. You know, we're not sure about anybody on our team. That's great reflection, because a lot of people say, oh, yeah, we have great people. But, you know, you really dig in, and they may not have the right people. Doesn't necessarily mean they need to get rid of them. It means that maybe there's a better seat for that person, or maybe that Person needs to be coached up about what's really important, their core values and what makes them fit into the company. So the system itself, but also managing it at the beginning is really key.

B (8:17)

That's like such an impressive level of self awareness for a leadership team to be. Like it's two. How do you think about that? That's the first time I've heard that. How do you. That's awesome. How do you think about that? Like, are you like, well, we're going to have to run like two vision building days event or like going to have to double some of this like once we acknowledge.

A (8:40)

No, I mean might it take time for them to see it and admit it even though it's right there before them? Yes, it might, but it's the process is the process. You know, we have three foundational days and then quarterlies and annuals and it just EOS grows upon itself. It's like peeling back the layers, but the process itself works. So you know, one vision building day or two vision building days, days one and two. But you don't have separate ones. The team, you need to enable the team to get real. You need to enable the team to recognize what's right in front of them and they vary in how quickly they will actually recognize it and more importantly act upon it. So the clients that don't succeed will not address their people issues. You know, people. EOS is a system for managing human energy and people are at the core of making your company great. All the components are important in Eos, but if you don't have the right people, it's a deal breaker.

B (9:52)

And I tell them that is your thing. Like when the time is right and, and the two person SLT is this, I'm assuming it's like the visionary and the integrator or do they not even know?

A (10:04)

Sometimes and sometimes that's not clear or they're both doing everything.

B (10:09)

Is your whole, it's probably like a long night right now. Is your whole thing. Like when the time is right, like we will bring those other leaders into this room.

A (10:19)

So you probably know by now that in EOS we do a structure first approach. And once we define the right structure, what are the major functions or seats or departments in the business and what are those people accountable for? You can start to get real and objective about who really is going to get it naturally. Be hardwired to get it, want it pretty obvious and have the capacity. And capacity goes to a lot of different fields or a lot of different areas. It's, you know, do you is that person able to get the job done in the right amount of time? Do they have the skills, the background, the experience they have the eq, the iq, sometimes the physical ability to do the job. So it really, it really becomes clear and it's when they act on them that change happens. And often what you see in teams is they have what's. I don't like to loosely use the term, but they have what's classified as in one model as internal terrorists in the organization. They've got a great performer who is absolutely knocking it out of the park and they just don't fit the culture. They're insidiously destroying the culture of the company and they have all kinds of problems, impact on other people that might otherwise be great. And that is really hard for people to confront because oh my God, he's bringing in X number of dollars, X number of clients. The clients love them. This, that if they're not aligned with who you are and what your kind of company code is, they can take you down. So that's one of the hardest things for leaders to recognize is. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Or sometimes the family members, you know, there, there's many reasons it could be for, for them to really necessitate them looking objectively. That's the whole thing. When I say real objective, real objective, it's, it, it's about being able to get past the emotion, get past the ego, get, get past the long time relationships. And you don't necessarily have to get rid of the people, but if they don't fit and they can't get better and they can't adopt your way of being, then it's, it's really dangerous for the company to keep them.

B (12:54)

I had quite a bit of. And even like you know it, you see it, you're thinking it and, and it's just like for some reason you're paralyzed because that person is so valuable. And, and I've had that situ. Like we had someone on the senior leadership team like that. The opportunities that they were bringing us I felt were, were irreplaceable. But the degradation to the culture, the team, everything else around them. What's your, when a company like it's, it's like so easy but so hard. Like when you're, when you're working with a company that has that issue, like what's your, do you have a strategy for them? Are you like fire them now and like you'll figure it out because the company's better for it or are you like, hey, this is a seven step program. And like step one, you've identified and yay, step two, like now we need to figure out what the, you know, the rest of this looks like. What, how do you think through that when you see it?

A (13:47)

So we actually, the, the way to be EOS pure in that and works is that you don't want to just throw somebody out. I mean, unless it's really egregious. We have what we call the three step process. So someone isn't being well or doing well or performing well. We're not talking about someone who's stealing. You know, really it's a person that potentially can be redeemed for whatever they're doing. And it's not so ridiculously awful that you're, you just need to cut the cord right there. So when you have that person who's not either being or doing up to the level you want them to be, you have the first conversation, three strike rule, first conversation. You bring three data points together and you show them multiple examples of how they're not being or doing well and you have a conversation with them. The reason you do three is because the first one, they think, oh, you're nuts. The second one is a coincidence and by the third, they can see that, yeah, I guess there really is a pattern here. And then you give them some time to either step up or step out. You know, you have a scheduled meeting for maybe a couple weeks later, strike two, you give them a review. You're doing great here, but I still need you to go there, whatever it is. And by the third strike, then it's pretty clear to both parties in that conversation if it's working or not. And if it's not working, that's where. And of course they're documenting along the way during those steps so that they can go to their employment lawyers and make sure that they're covering where they need to cover.

B (15:32)

The issue that we had is that there was this general feeling of like distrust. Sliminess is not the right. Like somebody that kind of like gets in and is kind of, of selfish and all about themselves. And, and what was unique about this situation is like, and I was trying to think as you were like giving examples. I was like, oh, okay. Is there, is there an example that I would have seen in that situation, like what happens when it's a feeling like there's, there's been this like general feeling of distrust and now the team has a lot of distrust. I, I guess it's just trying to figure out what the, what those Actions were that, that led them.

A (16:07)

Yeah. So if it's in session and you're sensing distrust and you're sensing people holding out, you just, I mean, let's just call it out, you know, hey, what's going on here? I feel this vibe. There are many options after that. They could have an issue solving session, a same page meeting, whatever's going on, you know, they can meet and solve it on their own, or you can explore it in session. So it, it's better if we can explore it in session. Well, what's going on? Why, why is everybody so quiet today? Come on, you know, let's, let's talk about it and, and you know, make them understand that if you keep hiding it, nothing's getting better. You know, the key to the whole system is solving issues early so that they don't snowball. They can go away forever. You can get what you want and be your best. So it looks different in pretty much every situation, but you've seen the pattern before. And the key is in the beginning, when you're an EOS implementer, it's kind of like you don't really get it, but you recognize it more easily and more easily. And then you become equipped with ways to really move them in a direction where they can get past that distrust and really get to the root cause. What is the root cause of that? Trust. So did someone steal a client? Is someone hiding the fact that they don't understand something or they can't complete something on their own? Is someone afraid to talk to one of the leaders? Is someone else feeling passed over that they're being outplaced and they don't get it? Or is there just a general fear of being upfront in the company? Is it cultural? You know, they may have in their core values, they may say, oh, yes, we are, you know, all about teamwork. But maybe it's not. Maybe it's a bunch of silos and everybody's protecting their butts.

B (18:11)

When you're going through this and like you're finally, let's say you've gone into a session room and it's like crickets and you're like, oh, here we go. Like, I'm sure, I'm sure you're back there, like, this is going to be a good one, because it sounds like you like kind of pulling it out of people when, when, when you're going down that path. Like once people start to open up, is there ever a point where you've gone too far into the danger zone or like, it's Gone. It's gone over. And like, what's the difference between, like, being candid and calling someone out? And, like, now we've crossed the line of, like, what we're. We accept.

A (18:47)

Yeah. So first of all, they're guidelines to being open and honest. You know, you want to be respectful, want to hear the other person out. All, you know, they're, they're our guide. There are guiding cues around how to be open and honest and to stay on point and not attack the person. But maybe the behavior is being criticized, that kind of a thing. So there's. That there are those rare moments where something is uncovered or you sense it in the room and something is uncovered that is so sensitive, and for whatever reason or another, it's just not going to be healthy in the room. So sometimes it's, why don't we step in the hallway? Sometimes is, do you want to take this offline at another time? And sometimes it's, if we don't get all the way through this today, then is this going, you know, how are we possibly going to go forward? Because it's inhibiting everything. It could be that, that big an issue. And it, as I said, it really depends on the deftness and the skill sets that an implementer has to be able to know when those different situations arise and what to do and how to manage them.

B (20:16)

Are you of the mind that, like, if there's not fireworks in a session room. Like, we did not. Like, no, we did not.

A (20:21)

Okay, no, no, no, no, no. In fact, I really reject that. There's. There are some teams. Well, first of all, they can't be too, too sweet. Like, back in the days of COVID when I had a team that was like putting hearts and flowers every time someone commented that was like, okay, what's behind that?

B (20:39)

You, like, you busted right through that. You're like, that's not what that means. And we need to, we need to.

A (20:45)

Get there, use comments and words now. But it really, again, varies based on the situation. But it's, it's about staying objective. It's about getting right. It's like this constant theme. And EOS works because we manage towards that. It's the tool. So you've got, you know, in data, we've got scorecards, people having a number that they're, that they're accountable for a measurable or metric. We have clear expectations in terms of the kind of areas they're going to obsess about in each of their seeds, the, the rocks and the goals that need to be completed. The behaviors. So when you have all of that filtering together, EOS is like a matrix. It's all interdependent and each tool leverages the other and you can get them to a place to actually see it. It's hard for them not to see it. That's how you move forward when, when.

B (21:50)

You come in and, and there's a new organization, let's say they, they haven't been self implementing. Maybe they've, it's probably always the visionary or the, probably the visionary integrator. The visionary because he learned it in his peer group or it's the integrator where he's like, I just can't do this anymore. What tends to be some of the most challenging aspects of the initial implementation period?

A (22:16)

Good question. Sometimes there could be a dynamic in the company where though you have these tools that, that are illustrating exactly what's going on. There's fear of retribution. You know, you can have an over zealous, very, very strong. I'm trying to say this politely. You can have a guy or a girl or whatever who's really being a jerk to their people. Okay, that's a nice way to express, express it on a podcast.

B (22:57)

Sounds like an to me. But that's okay. We can go with jerk.

A (23:01)

So, and, and people get worn out by that over time. They, they, they don't want to be the one to bring real issues forward. They don't want to, they don't want to play the game and they don't want to be the ones who are going to stand up for, for what's right. And so when you come into a situation like that, and that's very clear, you know, first time that that leader is inappropriate or diminishes the other person or insults the other person or just becomes the boss, then you call it out. How's this working for you? Are you guys a leadership team? Like really what's going on? And, and is this what happens every day? And they start to question. So it doesn't mean that the leader, particularly if they're, you know, an owner or whatever, sometimes they need to leave. But it doesn't mean they always need to leave. I have one where I have a client that I worked with for a very long time who the leader was just, he was just too much in so many different ways. And there was silence in the room and always. And they just waited for what he had to say. He answered first before other people. You know, it wasn't like giving his people the voice. And ultimately it became clear to him and to the team that this isn't the environment for me, it's not good for them and I'm going to chase something else. He left the company and it was a function of EOS that made him actually leave the company. And now he's doing something he loves with people he loves because they. The team he had was a totally different dynamic. The dynamic to follow his dynamic and his behavior would have created a really unhealthy team. So. So as I said, peel back the layers and it just will, it reveals everything. It's the best work in the world. I love this work.

B (25:17)

EOS changed my life. Like hands down, it was both vistage and eos. And like Vista or Eos was a byproduct of vistage because Dan Wallace never would have came through my Seattle group and I never would have learned about it. How did, how does that happen? I guess, I mean when you think about, when you think about a visionary and I get it, like you know, visionaries out there that are not or CEOs or GMs or owners that are out there that don't understand the EOS system and frameworks and things like that. How do you get to a place of where like you're like you've hired an entire team that's a completely different dynamic than is that just a product of like not having like you know, a people analyzer and some sort of system for bringing people through or like was were they just looking for doers and not, not thinkers?

A (26:10)

It could be either. So they could be. I'll start with the latter. They, they, they could be you know, just hiring the wrong people. Not they're not hiring necessarily the leaders they need to help move the company forward. And often or they may have already in their company leaders who aren't really right for the next stage of growth. And with the people analyzer, so you know, people analyzer, you line up your people about. Around the behaviors you want to see and around the performance you want to see in terms of are they right for the job that they're sitting the seat they're sitting in. Sometimes it's a very objective conversation that that one tool that is powerful in so many different ways reveals. And it's a matter of the leadership team being willing to act on it. So the leader brings in, let's say the link. The leader is a visionary and they know they're a visionary. They don't like the details. They're all about energy, they're all about impact and they, and, and, and they're very positive people. And somehow they bring in on their team, onto their team, people who are more cutthroat. They're all just about winning. Like there's a clash there. And so it becomes clear the the true leaders of the company, those are the ones who possess the core values that you want to mesh with. But if the leader is dysfunctional or harmful or evil, you know, that's an exception.

B (27:55)

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A (29:57)

So it's rare when it's, when it's, well, first of all, you can reveal it in the room, but they can still resist and often, you know, at a scheduled break, not, you know, scheduled after a certain exercise or whatever, take them aside and tell them. The same way that we coach people, we recommend in our lma leading and managing to accountability. The same way we coach people, people, we're not attacking them. You know, you don't walk out and say in the, in the hallway, you're really being a jerk. It's more about, I'm observing this and that. I'm observing the reactions of your people. What is it you really want here and why is it this way? Like, it's really about getting curious, not attacking, but helping them see how the impact of their behavior on the team. I mean, it was night for that visionary leader who left. It was night and day when someone else came in. And all of a sudden the meetings were dynamic and there was great conversation and there was teamwork and there was excitement and there was success, much like exponential success compared to a company that formerly had just very high levels of attrition. People were just racing out the door, new people at the helm, great company.

B (31:32)

There's this like, there's this thing that's thrown around a lot and it's like people can't change. People don't change people. Like all, all those are. Do you feel differently about that because of the things that you've seen and you've observed or, or like what does when, when people say like people can't change, therefore, like you just fire, you don't invest. It's like they're not going to change, whatever that is. What's kind of your perception of that?

A (31:57)

My perception is my perception there is. Give them the opportunity, you know, we can't again unless it's egregious. Give them the opportunity to demonstrate that they can do or be what you need them to be.

B (32:15)

And.

A (32:17)

They can either step up or step out. You know, the other side of this is when by that third strike I talked about people, it's clear that it's not gonna work. First of all, a great employer will help them find another job. You know, whether it's they're not fitting into a seat or any seat in the organization, or it's not a cultural fit. Um, and, and that person finds a place where they do fit. So it's win, win for everybody.

B (32:51)

Why, why do you think that's so hard for leaders? Like what do you do you, it's like this notion of I, I don't, I, I, I don't want to take us back to the, the people can't Change. There. There's this maybe this feeling of like, if I tell this person, if I tell this person, like, these behaviors aren't aligning, these actions aren't right. So let's say we're on kind of the core value side of it, or maybe it's the experience, expertise, get it, want it, have the capacity, like something needs to change. You're having those conversations sometimes there's probably a train of thought over. And I'm saying this because I've had these thoughts where it's like, I'm going to tell this person that and then they're going to be like, I'm, I'm now on the radar. I'm now like, potentially going to get fired. So instead of like changing my behaviors or working on this, I'm just going to like, quiet quit, I think as they like coined it, and I'm going to start looking for a new career. Like, what do you normally see? Do you normally see workers that were like, hey, thank you for that. No one's ever gave me critical feedback and now I have something to work with?

A (33:56)

Yeah, well, hopefully they've given them constructive feedback, you know, starting with the positives and, you know, the whole sandwich thing. But if the person, if you're giving feedback to people and your fear is that they're going to leave, that kind of goes back to that internal demon who's in your company because they're holding you back from making the right decision. So if you're afraid someone's going to leave because you get real with them, you've got a real problem. That's a trust problem. And I would go back to your question even a little deeper. You know, it's hard to let go of people. You know, we teach this stuff. It was hard for me. I kept, in my early days, I kept the wrong back office people. I. For way too long because I believe they would get better. I gave them the chances along the way. But it's hard to let go of people and we need to be really objective about it for ourselves and for them. But that, but it is hard. That's why we have a system to help you get out of that emotional place and into an objective place.

B (35:21)

What, what does. And maybe, maybe this helps because, like, there's a lot of fear. There's all these, like, emotions that are running through. And maybe, maybe some people, like, don't know what good feedback looks like. Like, what. When you're kind of coaching the leader, whoever that's going to go into a conversation like this, like, like, what are you coaching to? Like, what does great feedback look like?

A (35:42)

Great feedback looks like, first of all, not being cruel, but being kind. It looks like coaching, again, from a place of curiosity, getting really curious as to many things. First of all, you know, have we really given this person a chance? Have they gotten the time and attention that they need? Do they have the tools that they need? Do they, have they been, you know, brought into the culture in such a way where they feel that they're part of a team and, you know, do they have the skills, the experience? Did we fill the gaps for them? Have we set clear expectations? Have we been good role models for them? Like, all of that, you want to give people a real chance to succeed, but then it's about, you know, hey, you're doing, as I said before, you know, your performance is great, but you're way too siloed, way too competitive. All about me. We're, we're, we really are a team that celebrates success together. You know, can you become more inclusive, less? And in some organizations, that wouldn't be true. I just want to say, you know, if you're in a, you know, maybe if you're working for a finance company or any of the fields where people have to be, you know, they foster competition. It's all about winning. It's about winning the game, winning the client. You know, that's fine. That's their culture. But if it's not yours, then it's about getting curious about that disconnect with who you are. And you could both value teamwork and competition, but they have to be in balance.

B (37:31)

Yeah, I, I, I won't, I won't take. This would be a whole nother rabbit hole. I've just, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, which is, you know, like, I'm super competitive and, and like, I'm excited about, about where, where our organizations go and all these other things. We're also not cutthroat. And, and when I, when I learn about, like, other kind of shops in the space, like, some are very cutthroat in how they do things. And, and I think about this a lot. Like, do we need that? Everybody's a type A it. Everybody's, like, burning for 18 hours a day to win. And I don't, I don't think that's true.

A (38:08)

Would you want to be hanging out with those people every day?

B (38:10)

Ew. No. No.

A (38:15)

Yeah.

B (38:16)

Yeah. It's, yeah. It's like, the thing that I've been battling my brain is like, do they grow Faster. When you have a culture like that, like are they doing bigger things faster or is it like. No, that's who they are. And this is who like we are for instance, and we're all just kind of on our own, our own journey.

A (38:38)

So Peter Drucker said, culture eats strategy. For breakfast, you've got to have the people that fit with you. You've got the people that you want to go out and do a team building event, you know, have dinner with, whatever, have a drink with, whatever it is in your, in your world and that you enjoy being around. And they, they fit like a glove. You would clone them if you could. You know, all that kind of stuff. You know, like I said, as I said, do you want to hang out with them? That's really the bottom line. Those are the people who, who need to be on your team. And if they're really divergent from that.

B (39:24)

What'S your feedback for companies that are like growing and scaling very fast, where the folks, the leaders that you're dealing with are not even in kind of those hiring decisions anymore. And so everything you just said is absolutely true and that should go consistent with anybody in the organization at any time, even if you had no hand in their hiring. Like what's your advice for organizations that are scaling to make sure that like when you're not directly involved, it's still happening.

A (39:50)

So the VTO and core values and that we have, we have a tool that should be used in hiring. We have a couple, several, many tools but they all integrate around using them in hiring, firing, recognizing, rewarding and terminating. And the idea is that you have to be clear with people about what this company values. So we have an exercise, we take them through to build the core values, all of that authentic, non aspirational core values. But then there's a tool in EOS called the speech. And the speech is an outline and for each core value and this should be in, in the recruiting, in the initial interviews, in the final interviews, in the coaching, all that stuff. But for each core value, what's the history of that value? Why is that so important to us? Maybe a story about the value, maybe a shout out about someone exhibiting that value, really demonstrating that and most importantly, what's the anti value? And you make that extreme. So if one of your values is help first, let's say so our, it's one of EOS core values. It's what we do. We help first before we collect. We help first in any opportunity. I have my clients, it's just my nature and it's our core value. So you've got someone who is not, or you're hiring someone and you bring them in. It's being clear in that speech what this anti value is like. We would never, ever, even if the opportunity were huge, we would never not take care of that client who has that small need. Right. Even if that's the big opportunity over there. Our clients are our family. And it's a matter of. It may be the other way around, but whatever it is. So the anti value for each core values and then is key in that speech. And we can make it an outline so you can use it for any purpose, hiring, firing, reviewing, rewarding, all that stuff. Now, you know, in order to inculcate that, in order to get that to be adopted into the culture, you have to repeat it a lot. So at every state of the company, every quarterly, after the session that the leadership team has, they go out back to the company and they can refresh that outline when they talk about core values and do shout outs and this person and maybe contests and awards and all that stuff to get it into the daily vernacular.

B (42:39)

Love it, love it, love it. We were on the right track at my last company. So thank you for that because that was affirmation by some of the, Some of the things.

A (42:49)

Yeah, people need to hear things many times before they really adopt them and integrate them.

B (42:54)

There's a, there's a funny story. And it was like an army general, but he used to say, like he would say things until he saw the soldier's eyes roll to the back of.

A (43:02)

Their head because then now they get it.

B (43:06)

Now they get it. I love that quote. What, what do you, what do you look for in clients? And, and where are those clients? Are you, are you regional? What, what types of companies? Like, what does that look like for you?

A (43:19)

So I'm in South Florida and I am building my, rebuilding my market in South Florida. But what I look for in clients is you. You may be sensing. So in addition to the EOs, ideal clients, frustrated, want help, willing to be open, honest and vulnerable. I also add to that they have to be willing to let their hair down. As you can see, I'm not stuffy, I'm not formal. I want, I want to see who you are in that meeting. I want you to be able to get real. I want you to be able to recognize that we can have some fun in a session. Hard work doesn't have to be painful. They're learners, both for peer groups and for EOs. If they're not Thirsty for learning, thirsty for growth, thirsty for getting better. Like it's, it's a passion. Like the, the people who are impatient and they want to rush it along. I calm them down, but I'm like, you're on the right track. That's my ideal client. I love that space where they, they know there's more. They, they're really, they may be doing really well, but they, they, they know there's more, they want more, they want scale or maybe they want to pass their business on to, they want to sell or pass it, you know, succession to someone internally or merge or acquire. Like you just. And those are the kinds of results that EOS brings. You know, I have four companies with successful exits and they look totally different.

B (44:54)

Not to make this an EOS infomercial, but like, if you're not, if you're not running on EOs, you are. You are wrong.

A (45:00)

Exactly. Like, how could you run any other way? It's so simple, it's so clear, but you can go off the rails if you don't do it right.

B (45:08)

I. And, and it's night and day, like for anybody that, that would be self implementing. So we self implemented at Hunt a killer for about two years. And then when we got our, our expert and, and we thought we were.

A (45:17)

Cool, like you said, we got this, right?

B (45:20)

Yeah, yeah, like, because it was transformational. We're only self implementing. It was transformational. So when we were like, yeah, well, yeah, we'll go get an implementer. And so we got him. And the first day she was like, what the hell are you guys doing? So what was cool is like we already went through one transformation. We were like operating so much better in the way we were. But going and getting an implementer was like, it took it to a whole nother level.

A (45:43)

It's like hockey stick. Like you've been going.

B (45:47)

Yes, 100%. Your journey into the EOS is actually a very unique story as well. So how did you find your way into eos?

A (45:59)

So it was on many tracks, but really originated with Jonathan Smith, who's in the book Traction. He and I were both in the D.C. area and he was moving to New York. He actually offered me to take over his practice. I was working with leadership teams on communications, on team building, kind of using Simonson XY kind of work. And then he said, you know, I'm moving, take over my practice. But I really was loving my work. So fast forward, he's in Manhattan, my son Ben is in Manhattan. And my son Ben was looking for a new just A new gig. He was COO of a company and he knew that he couldn't ever affect change. So I hadn't talked to Jonathan. Jonathan is one of those people who's at the control panel can touch just about anything.

B (46:57)

And.

A (46:59)

Jonathan brought Ben in to become an EOS implementer. Then Jonathan and Ben brought me in and dotted line to their firm. The other person in that firm was at the time Mark o', Donnell, the current visionary leader of EOS Worldwide. So I would go watch their sessions and I had really, really, really great training. But in addition, I have an EOS family. We, we talk Eos, we have family meetings around eos using eos. It's pretty cool.

B (47:33)

When did that change? Because it sounds like when you were in DC and JBS was in dc, like things you were really kind of focused on what you were doing. When did that exposure come to the degree of where you're like, this is a life changing framework system. Something. Was it Ben? What was it?

A (47:49)

It was Ben. It was Ben. And it was. We have, they're not necessarily quarterly, but in my family we have regular meetings in which we all work on ourselves and each other. And it's very open and honest like eos and we chart progress and we solve issues. And basically the bottom line was several members of my family looked at me and said, stop doing this, just do eos. So when I agreed, initially I thought it was just conflict management and I was like, but I'm having so much fun with these teams that are all happy anyway. Yeah, well, issue solving is a big deal in eos, but it was the best thing I ever did. I literally bleed the stuff like I can't see through any other lens than through EOS because it just works. And it's so clarifying when you.

B (48:45)

And it's interesting how, how you've translated that to the family. Like we, we still have on our issues list to start weekly L10 meetings as a, as a family. But like I've heard incredible like just breakthroughs in so much like different kind of personal areas by bringing it more into your personal life.

A (49:06)

I mean if you think about it, we all need to get past issues. It's in life, it's in work and it, it's about prioritizing how, you know, we have a personal VTO or Vision Traction Organizer, we have a family vto. If your business vto. If where you're going with your business doesn't align with where you're going personally and as a family, then you're missing something. So it's really powerful stuff.

B (49:32)

So someone's been listening to this podcast and they're like, I need to get a hold of Beth. What's the best way for someone to get a hold of you?

A (49:41)

They. Beth Berman. Beth Berman at EOS Worldwide. B e t h dot be R M A N at EOS Worldwide. 301-807-1990 or you can find me on LinkedIn. Just reach out. I'm. I'm happy to help, even if it's just a matter of saying, are you doing it well? And give you some advice and some tips. Love. It's in my heart and I love eos. I'm such a. I sound like such a cult follower, right?

B (50:13)

I say, like, drinking the Kool Aid and then I forget who it was. It might have been Sherry. Like, Sherry Coon was like, can we stop saying, like, we're trying to get away from drinking the orange Kool Aid.

A (50:22)

I said, I bleed Kool Aid. I mean, I truly love the work. A good part of that is the EOS framework, and another huge part of that is who I get to hang out with and diverse. Everything from lighting designers, architects, engineers, contractors, that whole world, behavioral health companies that have platforms and multiple ways of delivering. It's all over the map. Technology at the edge where, you know, you're bringing two continents of people across continents together who are formerly siloed, bringing them together and they have, like, enormous success and, you know, sell for many, many multiples above revenue. So, you know, that feels really good to be able to do that.

B (51:18)

I, I agree. Hanging out with cool people, helping them do bigger things. And you, you've brought in every, every, every aspect of your life, which I love and I've been trying to do. Okay. Beth, thank you so much for coming on. This was. I don't know if it feels like it flew by, but it flew by for me. But I will tell you that my hand hurts because of how many notes that I was writing the whole time because we got really deep into some interesting topics of creating that environment and being able. How do you take it right up to that point, but make sure you don't cross over the line. Great feedback for, for employees or what does great feedback look like? So I just want to thank you so much for it took you a year and a half, but for taking an hour with me and, and having the conversation.

A (52:03)

It was my pleasure. This was a blast.

B (52:06)

Awesome. All right, thanks for coming on.

A (52:08)

All right, thank you.