S2E28 | Letting Go To Grow: Empowered Teams Build Better Businesses with Sonya Jury

Summary

Confessions of an Implementer: S2E28

Letting Go To Grow: Empowered Teams Build Better Businesses with Sonya Jury
Date: December 24, 2025
Guest: Sonya Jury (EOS Implementer, former architect)
Host: Ryan Hogan

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Ryan Hogan sits down with Sonya Jury, whose unconventional leap from decades in architecture to EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System) implementation provides rich, practical lessons for growing and empowering teams. Through personal stories, industry anecdotes, and hands-on advice, Sonya shares how the principles of trust, collaboration, and letting go—as learned in both architecture and business—are essential to building scalable companies. The conversation is filled with concrete examples, candid confessions about career pivots, and memorable analogies that apply EOS in vivid, relatable ways.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Sonya’s Journey from Architecture to EOS

• Creative Beginnings ([01:18])
  • Sonya’s love for building—including childhood Lincoln Logs and knockoff Legos—sparked creativity early on.
  • She resisted the business world’s “sad and depressing” feel, embracing architecture for its blend of creativity and science.
• Architecture as Orchestration ([04:48])
  • Architecture blends engineering, creativity, and facilitation:
    "It’s a world where everything comes together beautifully… kind of like a conductor orchestrating all of these different things." – Sonya Jury [06:49]
• Continuous Learning and Problem-Solving ([06:57])
  • Sonya's approach: seek out new challenges, volunteer for complex assignments, remain a “sponge.”
  • Stories of demystifying healthcare design—making spaces that soothe patients—highlight empathy and client focus.
• Notable Projects: Highs and Lows ([09:46])
  • Best Experience: Building a 20-year Vegas restaurant where everyone “went above and beyond”—lasting twice the industry’s typical lifespan ([10:10]).
  • Worst Experience: Toxic blame culture, finger-pointing, and poor collaboration ([13:44]): "Oh my God, can we just all work together? ... That's the part of architecture I didn't enjoy." – Sonya Jury [13:44]

The Career Pivot: From Architect to EOS Implementer

• The Push to EOS ([15:52])

  • After being let go, Sonya describes her reaction: “I just got this big grin on my face and I said, ‘I’m going to do EOS now. This is the push, the nudge, whatever you want to call it, that I’m going to go do EOS.’” – Sonya Jury [16:49]
  • Support from her husband and the timing of family need dovetailed with her pursuit of a new mission.

• Letting Go Is a Gift ([20:27])

  • Host Ryan connects firing, though tough, as being “a gift for both the organization and that person,” applauding Sonya’s perspective.

• Advice: When a Colleague Gets Let Go ([21:30])

  • “Don’t be silent when someone does get let go. Just reach out. How are you doing mentally, emotionally? ... Be a human, I guess, is what I’m trying to say.” – Sonya Jury [22:30]

Building a Book of Business and Empowered Teams

• Starting from Scratch ([24:34])

  • Day one means phone calls, massive networking, handing out EOS books—educating her community.
  • Reflection: Had she known about EOS earlier, her own architecture business could have thrived longer.

• Vision Mismatch ([27:16])

  • Sonya regrets not having earlier, intentional conversations about differing visions with her business partner: "Oh my gosh, how young and dumb... of not talking and having the tough conversation about what he wanted and what I wanted." – Sonya Jury [27:16]

Resolving Conflict and Building Healthy Leadership Teams

• Reconciling Different Visions ([28:23])
  • Yes, differing visions can be reconciled—but with time, “lots of conversations,” and understanding individual working styles.

Assessments as Tools ([28:47])

• Sonya and Ryan discuss Kolbe scores and how knowing team members’ cognitive strengths can defuse conflicts, foster empathy, and enable collaboration.

Facilitation Techniques for Productive Conflict ([32:59])

• Sonya’s tip for managing high-energy team members: “Hey, can we take a pause? Because the rest of us have to catch up with you.” – Sonya Jury [32:59]
• Conflict, when harnessed with understanding (“blameless discernment”), yields breakthroughs.

Making Conflict Constructive ([37:12])

• Props and Practical Language:
  Sonya uses session “props” (the elephant, the sacred cow, the honesty pig, the squirrel) to name and normalize tough issues:
  • “There’s an elephant in the room, folks, and we need to talk about it. ... My favorite one is the honesty pig... [which] is going to look you in the eye and tell you what is what.” – Sonya Jury [37:40]
• Facilitators’ job is not to "rip your company apart," but to help reveal the hard truths teams already know and give them confidence to act ([41:01]).

The “Right Person, Right Seat” Challenge ([41:01])

• It takes self-awareness and organizational humility for someone to step down from a seat they no longer GWC (Get it, Want it, Capacity for it).
• Sonya cites examples where a founder or owner found fulfillment (and business growth) after shifting to a non-SLT (senior leadership team) seat: “It’s a lot of self-awareness. ... Am I the right person to sit in this seat? ... Do I want it because I really want it ... or because I’ve been here for so long? Two different things.” – Sonya Jury [44:31]

Patterns in EOS Implementation: The Hardest Parts ([49:08])

• Where Do Teams Get Stuck?
  • Frequently, the visionary/founder struggles most—concerned EOS will contain their creativity or autonomy.
  • Underneath, resistance often comes down to discomfort with accountability, not EOS itself. “A lot of times when people are giving me the Heisman … what we find out … they just don’t want to be held accountable.” – Sonya Jury [49:28]

Empowerment as the Heart of Growth ([51:22], [53:48])

• Sonya’s Niche:

  • She thrives with creative industries (A/E/C, manufacturing, marketing, restaurants), but her principles are universal. Gridlock is common when leaders become bottlenecks.

• Letting Go and Trusting Teams:

  • “You’ve got to let go of the vine. You’ve got to trust and empower. ... I trust you. I empower you to go forth and do your job.” – Sonya Jury ([00:00], [51:22])

• Empowerment Metaphor: ([53:48])

  • Leaders need to avoid having “everybody giving you their monkeys”—problems that should be solved by others. Instead, create a culture where others are empowered to solve issues.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:00]: "As an entrepreneur, you're wearing all these different hats to grow the business, but then at a certain point, you are wearing way too many hats and you become the bottleneck. So now you've got to let go." – Sonya Jury
• [16:49]: "I just got this big grin on my face and I said, 'I'm going to do EOS now. This is the push, the nudge...'" – Sonya Jury
• [21:30]: "Don't be silent when someone does get let go. You know, just reach out. How are you doing mentally, emotionally? Is there anything I can help you with? Be a human, I guess, is what I'm trying to say." – Sonya Jury
• [32:59]: “Hey, can we take a pause? Because the rest of us have to catch up with you.” – Sonya Jury
• [37:40]: “There's an elephant in the room, folks, and we need to talk about it.” – Sonya Jury
• [44:31]: "Am I the right person to sit in this seat? Do I want it because I really want it, I have a fire in my belly or do I want it because I think that I've earned it because I've been here for so long?" – Sonya Jury
• [49:28]: "A lot of times ... they just don't want to be held accountable. And that's then the root issue." – Sonya Jury

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:18] – Sonya’s creative upbringing and entry into architecture
• [04:48] – Architecture as orchestration; blending disciplines
• [09:46] – Standout projects and lessons from success and failure
• [15:52] – Career pivot: Letting go and embracing EOS
• [20:27] – Handling tough conversations; letting go as a gift
• [24:34] – Building an EOS practice from scratch
• [27:16] – The consequences of not aligning on vision
• [28:23] – Reconciling conflicting visions within leadership
• [32:59] – Strategies for balancing different working styles
• [37:12] – Props and language for normalizing conflict
• [41:01] – Addressing right person/right seat issues
• [44:31] – Self-awareness and ego: examples of moving seats gracefully
• [49:28] – Visionary resistance as the main EOS stumbling block
• [51:22]/[53:48] – Sonya’s client niche; the importance of empowerment

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How to Find Sonya Jury

• LinkedIn
• Email: [e-mail]
• EOS Microsite / Business Sherpa Site (Search: "Sonya Jury EOS" for details)

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Summary in a Sentence:
Sonya Jury’s story is a testament to the power of letting go, the necessity of self-awareness, and the exponential growth unlocked when leaders empower their teams—transforming both architecture projects and businesses through trust, candor, and the EOS framework.

Transcript

[Sonya Jury]

As an entrepreneur, you're wearing all these different hats to grow the business, but then at a certain point, you are wearing way too many hats and you become the bottleneck. So now you've got to let go. You've got to let go of the vine. You've got to trust and empower. That's the word that I hear most, that I try and encourage my teams. You need to empower your people. I trust you. I hired you to do a job. I trust you. I empower you to go forth and do your job.

[Ryan Hogan]

Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. Sonya, like lasagna. Sonia, thank you so much for joining us today. There's a lot of stuff to cover because I think one of the interesting parts, especially as we were doing kind of the pre call for all of this, is your background in architecture. And I won't say it's rare. It's not necessarily like a rare field. It's just rare that I speak with an EOS implementer who has such a vast background in architecture. So where did that start? Where did that passion come from?

[Sonya Jury]

As a kid, I was always making things, being creative. You know, as a little girl, my, my grandparents, they had the Lincoln log set. And whenever we would go visit them over the holidays, I would just, I, I knew where the closet was and I could just go grab it and dump it out. And that was just my thing. While the adults were talking behind me, my brother had an erector set. We did not, we could not afford Legos, but we did the Sears brand of bricks blocks, which was the knockoff. And I would just play with those. Any, like, talent art project as, as a kid, as growing up, I would enter and do our, our orthodontist here. Locally, they had a pumpkin carving contest and so I did a pumpkin, and that was back during Star wars and I made an R2D2 pumpkin.

[Ryan Hogan]

That's awesome.

[Sonya Jury]

It was really awesome. And of course I won, which was really fantastic because I got like a $50 gift or gift certificate. Cards did not exist to Foot Lockers, so I was able to go buy a new pair of kicks, which, you know, back in the day, you're like, yay, new shoes kind of thing. And so I was just always drawing and doodling and making things. And in high school, we did a, a college visit at the University of Kansas, which is just, you know, know, 30 minutes away from where I live. And I thought, I'm on the business track. That's what I'm do. I'm going to go into the business school. And I walked into the business school, and it was sad and depressing, and I thought, there is no way I could. I'm going to be able to do this. And so I came back and I just kind of thought about it. And I think I spoke to my English teacher. She was always that mentor that I could just like, bounce ideas off of. And she said, why don't you go into architecture? You're always doodling, you're always drawing. You're good at 3D conceptualizing and understanding things. Why don't you try that? So I applied, I got accepted, and the rest is history. And the irony is, so I did not take any drafting classes in high school. My brother is a mechanical engineer, industrial designer. And so I would always watch him when he was working with his T square and, you know, you know, the triangles and mechanical pencils and stuff like that. So I kind of learned through osmosis just by watching him. And then when I got to college, you know, they ask you to do all these drafting exercises. And I just remember looking at my classmates going, can anybody help me? Can you just kind of show me what I got to do? And so they just kind of gave me a little, here's a few things. And from there, it just came naturally. So, yeah, that's how I got into.

[Ryan Hogan]

It and has that pulled from. My uncle was an architecture. He did it back in the day where you didn't have to go through school. You could rise through the ranks right out of high school. I think it was like 15 or 17 years, and then at that point, you could get your certification. And then he bought the shop from his owner, and the rest was history. And so as much as he's been an influence, I feel like I still have not a great understanding of architecture. Like, did this pull a lot from you? Or is it like the engineering side? Or is it creativity? Or is it like a world where all of these things just kind of come together beautifully?

[Sonya Jury]

Well, I think it's a world where everything comes together beautifully. That's the ultimate win that I think we want for all projects. But again, if I go back a hundred years, there's a reason why they call the architect the Renaissance man. And it's because they kind of had to know a little bit about everything. You know, site drainage, surveying, how to put a building together, wood construction, how to, you know, lay things, design in a floor plan, how to explain it to somebody else to build it. There's just so much that had to come together. And now as we've grown, our societies have grown, we now are a bit more compartmentalized. I don't like to say silos because I think we're compartmentalized because we still have to be working together as a team, the owner, the contractor, the engineers, the architects, for the greater good of the project that we're trying to build. And it's so now going to what I do now as a facilitator. If I look back on my 30 plus years as an architect, that's really what I grew to become, was a facilitator at the very beginning. Sure. It was drawing, it was detailing, it was creating, it was doing a lot of models. I built a lot of actual models back in the day. And then once the computer started, everything kind of started morphing into the computers and you tried to figure that one out. So I just think, Ryan, that it all comes together. I mean, listen, I know just enough to be dangerous that I cannot remove that column and that wall because it's holding up the load for the roof. But I don't know what the beam is that I need to put in the size to carry the load. And that's where the structural engineer comes into play.

[Ryan Hogan]

Got it, Got it. So it becomes like you're almost like a conductor orchestrating all of these different things, pulling it together.

[Sonya Jury]

Yes, exactly.

[Ryan Hogan]

What would, what was kind of like the biggest kind of unexpected thing as you got into, as you got into.

[Sonya Jury]

This career, the opportunities and the just. I've always been a sponge. Continuous learning is my thing. It's my jam. And always when I would be in a, in a company and they would get a new project or they would get a new. They would have a challenge that needed to get done and I would just kind of like volunteer to do it and work on it and like help figure it out and problem solve it, I guess would be a good way to put it. And just the opportunities of exposure into new cultures, learning about new things. You know, I, I prided myself at the beginning, when I started my career. I was a healthcare architect for 15 years. And what I really enjoyed about that is learning that I think sometimes we put physicians and doctors on pedestals and you know, they're just a human that has picked a career and they're doing what they do and they're learning and that kind of thing. But being able to demystify healthcare. You know, a lot of people, I think when they walk into a hospital, they have, or the doctor's office, you have angst. Right. Unknown what's going to happen, what's going to, you know, take place and to know that hopefully we could design a facility, that the experience, you know, them walking through that front door was somehow calming to them. And then as they, you know, progressed to the waiting room, hopefully it was calming to them. And then as they went back to whatever surgery or procedure, you know, if you've ever been in an MRI or if you've ever gone into a linear accelerator, which is where they do the radiation treatments for cancer patients. I mean, those things are bunkers. And there's so much more now that we look at and think about. It's like, well, we're going to do something in the ceiling because that's really what the person's going to be looking at while they're laying there for 30 to 45 minutes doing whatever they do. So I guess bringing more of the hospitality side into hospital.

[Ryan Hogan]

And just an estimate. How many projects do you think you've worked? Because this was 35 years, correct?

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah. Easily 500. Yeah. And in all shapes and sizes. I mean, the smallest I worked on was a doghouse for, for a casino property in Bilox, Mississippi. And then the largest was a, a billion dollar complex that was being built in Doha, Qatar by her Highness and His Highness of the Qatari government. They were building a brand new, like, downtown area, a city center, if you will, that you could live, work and play. That was pretty remarkable if you were.

[Ryan Hogan]

If you were to think about maybe one or two projects that went incredibly well. Like, like it was, it was just a weld machine and you're just like sitting back and all the pieces are coming together versus one where, I don't know, maybe the wheels, maybe the wheels fell off. Yeah. Like, what were, what were the differences there? Like, you know, reflecting back on that.

[Sonya Jury]

Sure. So my favorite project to date, actually there are two, but I'm going to give you the first one. The first one was a, a restaurant at the MGM Mirage in Las Vegas, Nevada. And the Mirage is no longer there. Hard Rock bought it and they tore it down and they're going to build their own new property. But that was a really amazing job because the architect, her name was Alejandro Leo out of California, she, they had created, it was called graft design and they had created these undulating wood pieces that created this cave, like feeling in this restaurant. And when you would walk past the casino floor and you would look in, it would naturally just draw you in. And there was a really lovely bar, a little lounge area, and then at the back was all the seating and everything. And it was such an amazing, tough project because they were. They were. It was very early on in that they were taking wood and bending it and using. And taking the AutoCAD, the CAD, the computer translation into a CNC machine so that it could cut it, and then everything. And then there was lighting. There were sprinkler, you know, heads that had to be integrated. And the contractor. Between the contractor and the designer and us, I mean, everybody worked above and beyond to make it happen. And it was really such a remarkable project. And usually in Vegas, restaurants only last about five years, maybe eight. And that was opened in 2005, and it stayed 20 years. It lived 20 years, which is pretty darn remarkable if you think about it. It just. And again, you know, everybody went above and beyond the call of duty to make it happen and get it done. And it was such a remarkable. It was. It was the property president's favorite place to go hang out, have a cocktail at the end of the day.

[Ryan Hogan]

What, What's. It's so interesting because when you say, like, people went above and beyond and we see this in. In business. And. And like, the. I think they say, like, the. The 10 or 20% of, like, discretionary effort that, like, people will either put in or they will withhold. Like, what do you think the driver was in that? Like, everybody's rolling up their sleeves and. And just getting it done.

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah, it was an opportunity for this contractor to, like, get their foot in the door, and they really wanted to shine. Same with the architect, designer. And again, they. I mean, you know, we would talk to each other at 2 or 3 in the morning sometimes when we're trying to get something out. And it was just making sure that it was right. And, you know, if something showed up and it wasn't, we would figure out a way to fix it. And there was no pointing blame. There was no pointing of fingers. Every single one of us knew what the end game was, what the vision was, what the completion looked like, and we wanted to make it happen. And. Yeah, so that was just, you know, just a really great experience.

[Ryan Hogan]

And then compare that to one that just fell off. Fell off the rails.

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah. Where. I mean, you get it. Everybody's pointing fingers at somebody else and, oh, you didn't do this. You didn't do that. Well, you know how to, you know, shame on you. And it's like, oh, my God, can we just all work together? So that just that, that's the part of architecture I didn't enjoy. And I really did try to work past that. I mean, sometimes you get frustrated, but I really did try and make sure that we were all collaborating and working together. And it's so funny, there is like a switch that gets flipped as soon as the owner and architect are kind of done with the documents and we put it out to bid and we bring the contractor on. It seems like now we all start blaming the contractor, which isn't really fair because sometimes the owner is to blame because they've changed their mind or they say, well, that's not what I understood. Okay, well, what is it you want? Let's figure that out and then we'll determine if it's in the budget or, you know, a change order or whatever. So it's just, again, knowing your time frame, knowing the people involved. And, you know, early on, I was not good at confrontation with clients. And a lot of it is managing the expectations when you're holding the meeting for the contractor, the architect, and everybody else is coming to a consensus. And sometimes it's saying the hard things. And as you know, we tend to use the phrase in eos, there's an elephant in the room. And, okay, there's an elephant in the room. We've got to talk about it. This is the problem. We've got to fix it. We can't kick the can down the road. We've got to solve it and move on. So that's why I love what I'm doing now, because I honed my facilitation skills for 35 years, and now I can really lean in and use them.

[Ryan Hogan]

I love that. And, well, let's, let's, let's go there, what, 30, 35 years as an architect. And then, like, this is a major career shift from architect to usi. How did, how did that happen?

[Sonya Jury]

Well, first my girlfriend Deb, who lives in Kansas City, she gave me the book Traction. I don't even know when it was. And I read it and devoured it in a weekend. And I knew. I, I remember finishing it and closing the book. And I just sat there and I thought, where has this been? My career as an architect? Every single architectural, engineering and contractor could use this in the world that I live in, anyone that is in that creative mind space can use it. And the reason I say that is because we, as architects and designers and engineers, we're good about in the business. In the business is doing the work, it's doing the projects, it's getting them done on. The business is the strategy, the thinking. You know, are we going to chase every request for qualification that comes out for from the state of Missouri over the next year or are we going to be conscious about? We're only going to go after the ones that make sense to us. We're not going to chase something that we have no business chasing because we'll lose our shirts. So anyway, and again, I go back to that concept. As architects, we think that, we still think that, oh, I can do anything, I can't do anything. And frankly, there are things that I don't want to work on. So it's having that confidence to stay true to your north arrow of what you can do and what you can't do and what you're really good at. So Deb gave me the book and I just, I fell in love with the concept and, and so we kept talking about, you know, well, what is it like being an EOS implementer? What is, you know, what do you do, what's the journey, that kind of thing. And so Deb shared it with me and my last company that I worked for. And Ryan, you know enough about EOS that it's the right person in the right seat. So company core values and they GWC the seat they sit in. I don't know if I was the wrong person in the wrong seat. Wrong person in the right seat. Right seat, wrong. To this day, I still can't quite figure out what happened. I just know that it wasn't a good fit. And I think I knew that and the two partners knew that and they fired me. And I can still to this day, you know, close my eyes and picture myself walking back to the conference room. When we sat down and we had the conversation and I just said, guys, this is fine. Don't worry about it. I will land on my feet. And then, you know, I said, well, what's the messaging going to be? And sadly, they hadn't really thought about messaging. And so I just kind of smiled and went, okay. And I said, well, what do you want me to do? And they said, well, why don't you just go grab your things and go home and we'll figure getting your stuff back to you. And I went back home and I had my big ass Tory Burch bag or I went back to my desk and I'm like, this is mine, this is mine, this is mine, this is mine. They Won't know that this is mine. And I walked out and, and I sat and I went out and I got in my car and I just sat there and I just got this big grin on my face and I said, I'm going to do Eos. Now. This is the push, the nudge, whatever you want to call it, that I'm going to go do Eos. So I got home, poured myself a small glass of wine, sat on the sofa. My husband showed up. He's like, how was your day? And I said, why don't you go grab a vodka and then come talk to me? And so he's like, go do Eos. You've been talking about it. Go do it. And. And at the time, his father had been diagnosed with glioblastoma, and. Which is a form of a brain cancer, and he had the aggressive kind and prognosis was maybe 16 months kind of thing. And, you know, my husband's like, listen, I'm going to need your help with dad and some doctor's appointments because of me traveling so much, because at the time he really was. And he said, so go to Eos. Go, go sign up to the boot camp, get it on the calendar. And that's what I did. And the rest was history. And I'm very grateful that I was able to sign up for eos, help my husband, help his dad before he passed away, so that the universe heard, heard me and allowed me to do that.

[Ryan Hogan]

One of the reasons that that story is so powerful is because, and this is from personal experience, I'll just speak for myself. I do hear it. But, like, having tough conversations with people is so, so difficult. You. You don't want to hurt feelings. You don't want people to feel less than. And there's this thing that's constantly talked about, especially in the EOS ecosystem, which is like, it's a gift, meaning if someone doesn't fit in the company, there's somewhere else that, that they belong. And it's like, it's a gift for both the organization and that person. Now, it's not always seen like that from, from both sides of the table, but it truly is. And what's interesting about the story you just shared is, like, you. You didn't get angry and throw things and like, do a whole. You went in the car and you smiled, and it's because, like, you knew something was wrong, they knew something was wrong, and eventually, like, a decision or an action was taken. But that story is powerful because all too often we're not having the conversations because we live in fear or whatever.

[Sonya Jury]

The case may be, and 100% on the fear. And Ryan, what is so interesting is my colleagues, the ones that I thought would reach out to me didn't. And the ones that I thought would never reach out to me did. There is something about a taboo or maybe you have a mark on your back, I don't know of being fired and people don't reach out. I mean, I've had friends that have been let go and I immediately, like, I know this hurts. How can I help you? And they were just so appreciative that I didn't, that they didn't suffer in silence. And even some of them didn't suffer because they were okay with it. But at least that somebody reached out to them, you know, it doesn't make them a bad person. It just means that it wasn't a right fit or something else transpired that it didn't work out. So I would encourage people, don't, don't be silent when someone does get let go. You know, just reach out. How are you doing mentally, emotionally? Is there anything I can help you with that kind of thing? Be a human, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

[Ryan Hogan]

All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting As a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have successful fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired. So when folks typically get involved in EOs maybe they've had an entrepreneurial background. Maybe, maybe they kind of bounce around places and they've established some sort of network. Maybe they're coming from sales, coming out of architect, like, what was that like trying to build a book of business. It sounds like at the time you were juggling a lot. So you've got, you've got stuff on the home front that you're taking care of. You're trying to get this new practice up. Like, what does that look like on day one?

[Sonya Jury]

Day one, you're making phone calls, you're talking to people, you're just getting the word out that, hey, wanted to let you know I'm, I'm on a new career trajectory and just letting you know that this is out there, this is why I've done this. I had my own business for eight years and I actually hit a ceiling, just like we say in EOs. And I didn't know how to move to the next level. I had no idea what a business strategic plan is. Do you know how many books are out there about write your business plan and. But it's just kind of a little gobbledygook in, in my mind. And what I loved about the VTO aspect of it is it's so simple. It's like, okay, I come up with my core values, I come up with my core value target. I know where I'm headed. Here's my marketing strategy, here's my three year picture. And so for me that day one, it was just making phone calls and talking to people, passing out the traction or the get a grip books to people. Networking. Oh my God, I can't believe how much networking I did that first year. It's a lot, you know, but a lot of people were interested and they wanted to know why I had left architecture to do this. And I just said, I, so many people need this. I needed it for my business and I didn't know that it existed. And I wish I would have known. Who knows, I may still be, I may still have been doing architecture had I known that EOS existed and hired somebody to help me, you know, to grow my business, to be my mentor and my guide, so to speak.

[Ryan Hogan]

And that's so powerful because EOS changed my life as well. The first thing that I did when my second company, because the first company went bankrupt and it was a disaster, couldn't spell P and L like you name it. Second company. Well, I made myself a promise. I was like, if I'm ever fortunate, lucky enough to have a business Take off again. I'm going to put in a trusted group of advisors and learn. And when the second company took off, first thing I did was join a Vistage group. The second thing that happened, it was probably within the first, like three months of the Vistage group. We had an eosi came through when you did this whole talk. But there's nothing more powerful than saying like, either if I would have had this, it would have taken my company to the next level, or I implemented this. But it sounds like you have that example. You can point back and be like, good lord, if I just had this back then, holy crap.

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah. And my business partner that I, that I took on, you know, we're dear friends to this day, but we had different visions and we had never sat down and talked about it. We. And I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, how young and dumb. Or how. Where did we miss in sitting down and talking and having the tough conversation about what he wanted and what I wanted. And it's okay. I mean, life has gone on. But I look back at that, I'm like, oh, I wish I would have had, you know, something, a, an operating system, a common language, a process in order to help with that conversation.

[Ryan Hogan]

When, when you, this is a really important topic. If, when you've got two people that have different visions and let's say that there has been a little bit of. Let's say there's been enough conversation to know that there's two. There's two different visions. Like, can something like that be reconciled? Like, how do you see, how do you see those things come together?

[Sonya Jury]

Great question. And Ryan, for me, yes is the answer. Yes, we. It will take time. It will take a lot of conversations. And you've heard the comment, well, so and so needs to come around. Well, everybody works and thinks and reacts to things differently. Ryan, have you taken your Colby?

[Ryan Hogan]

Yes.

[Sonya Jury]

Okay, what's your colby?

[Ryan Hogan]

It's the four numbers. Right?

[Sonya Jury]

Right. Can you remember?

[Ryan Hogan]

I'm a 22. 95.

[Sonya Jury]

22, 95. Okay. I am a 6, 4, 7, 3.

[Ryan Hogan]

Nice. Wow, that's. That's a good one.

[Sonya Jury]

Okay, so I'm kind of in the middle, but I know that you don't need a lot of facts. And because of your number two and because of nine, which is quick start, you're. You're ready to go. You're already out the door in the car and I'm still walking through the door, so to speak. Right. And so that's why the assessments help. Because if you can Peel back the layers of the onion of the other person and each other and understand how they communicate and why they see things differently. So that's part of it. That's number one. So any of the assessments that are out there, I'm a huge fan of because the more you know about somebody else, and so if I know what somebody else's either their Colby indexes, their prints, their positive intelligence saboteurs that live in their heads, it helps them, helps me to help them to facilitate the conversation of when they're doing this. Um, so like this, you know, a couple of my clients in the last six months, they have had some healthy conflict. And what I have done is I've tried to remind them before we have the conversation. Now remember, you know, Sonia is a seven at quick Start. You are a three, which means you as a three love, I don't want to say status quo, but you're happy, you don't need to change anything up. And so she's always going to be moving forward into the future and you're kind of, you're back here and that's okay. Just know that that's a huge gap when you're trying to have that conversation. I'm a four at follow through, so I'm just a hair bit better, Ryan, than maybe you are at being a two. However, your nine quick starts helps you get things done in bite sized chunks and morsels. Right? So when we have conflict, if we can help the other person, both people see each other and come together and be what is the true root issue. And then also we have to let go of any pride or ego or the story that we've made up in our head and only focus on the facts. And that is, you know, one way that we can facilitate. You've also heard the yes and when you're having a conversation, not the yes, but the yes. And the other thing that I really love and try and help my clients do is say you and I are having a conversation and you say something. And I could say, Ryan, I can see how that could work and can work. However, these are my concerns. So you're, I'm at least acknowledging that I heard you because most people just want to be heard and seen and that I'm seeing. Maybe 10% of what you said I can agree with, but then there's maybe 70% that we're still far away, that we can, we need to come together on. So it's facilitating in a very sage, blameless, discernment mindset.

[Ryan Hogan]

Not judging, not judge like when what's interesting about this is when I think about like, I'll just pull out the fact finder and, and the quick start, which is it's like both are needed and they're like kind of like the antithesis. So it's like a good counter weight for me as someone that does like facts. How. And the, the other issue here. So it's like a, a positive and a negative. Well, it's, I mean it's all positive, but there's just, there are. It naturally creates conflict and, and how. I don't want to say like, how do you, how do you tame a quick start? But like, if you've got someone that's like, go, go, go, and you're like, wait, we gotta wait. Like, what about like, how do you get them to slow down? And maybe this is a very selfish question, but how do you get them to slow down?

[Sonya Jury]

I say, hey, Ryan, can we take a pause? Because the rest of us have to catch up with you. Just take, just, let's just take a five minute pause and allow everybody to, to catch up a little bit. And because you know yourself, sometimes we need to say something and people have to think about it. Right? I've got a noodle on it for just a bit. Can I have 15 minutes to noodle on this? And let me come back to you because I don't want to do this. I don't want to feel like I'm being combative. I just need to understand and see it through your lens. So, yeah, so I mean with, between the two of us, we actually would align really well in a leadership team together because we don't, we don't have more than two points other than factfinder that's separating us.

[Ryan Hogan]

Do you, do you find like, because it sounds like you've, you do a lot of work with assessments. Like let's say a company you've got is looking for an integrator that, that buffer to, to make sure that the organization isn't constantly in disarray. Have you found that some of these assessments, like you're looking for one thing over the other, or you've seen a higher success rate in like an integrator role based upon a certain Colby score, or is it more like there's other things that play into it?

[Sonya Jury]

So in full disclosure, I have yet to use a Colby to help any of my clients find an integrator because a lot of times when they are coming to me, there's already an integrator in the, in the business. What I use the assessments then, is to help shine a light for all the leadership team as to everybody's strengths and where conflict is going to exist. Notice I didn't say the word weakness because I don't. I just don't think that belongs in our lexicon and for them to understand where the conflict is going to be. One of my teams, they were ID essing, and before they started idsing, I went over on the board and I wrote everybody's Colby out. And I said, now, does everybody remember what this means? And they're like, yeah, yeah, we do. And I said, do you really? They're like, yeah, we do. And so I'm watching the Director of ops and the integrator, and they're just going at it, and it's great. And I'm just standing there and I'm smiling, and the finance person is seated between the two of them, and her head is like a tennis match right now, watching what's going on. And I'm smiling. They all look at me. Why are you smiling? Stop smiling. And I said, well, because your Colbys are at play. And they're like, what do you mean? And I said, okay, integrator, you need facts. You're an eight operations person, you're a three in facts. Throw the integrator a bone, Give her more facts. And then the integrator also happens to be a little bit higher in quick start than the operations person. And I said, so you gotta understand, they're looking into the future and you're playing catch up. So remember that. And when I said that to them, they both looked at each other. Oh, my God, you're so right. And then they just. The temperature in the room came down a couple notches, and then they were able to have a civil, blameless, discernment conversation. So that when the integrator was asking questions, the operations persons felt, I'm going to answer these because she needs that knowledge. And that just really helped them shine a light. And they've been working together for, you know, two years, but they had forgotten what their Colbys were. So that's why I kind of always remind people to go back to that. If you're having conflict, is it from an assessment? And what does the assessment tell you? And then how can you manage the conflict between the two parties?

[Ryan Hogan]

What I've seen and what you've seen is, like, conflict is needed. Like, conflict is a necessity of getting to root causes, of getting to solutions and things like that. And that was a perfect example, like, for folks that don't like Conflict. There's a lot of teams out there that would rather just say nothing than, like, engage or embrace the red. How do you create that environment so, like, we can get that conflict and really start getting to the core issues?

[Sonya Jury]

So I'm going to hold that thought because I. I need props, Ryan. I should have brought them. I didn't even think about bringing props. So in our session rooms, we typically have props, and you might have seen these, so forgive me if you had. So one of my favorite props is the elephant. There's an elephant in the room, folks, and we need to talk about it. And when you use those words, Ryan, again, everybody just kind of. She's right. We've got to address it. Or there's a sacred cow that we've been holding on to. We've been doing it this way for 25 years. There's this new thing called AI. Can it help us modify it and make it faster? Okay, folks, we're politicking. We're beating a dead horse. We're saying the same thing over and over again. Or there's the other one, which is the bull, which is don't be a bully, or I'm calling out. And then, of course, there's the squirrel. The tangent alert. When, you know, we're talking about this issue, it's the root issue, and then somebody starts compounding more issues. I'm like, that's a squirrel. That's a compounded issue. It's a separate issue. Put it on the board. So it's helping the teams learn how to compartmentalize and to have language that they feel comfortable with. I mean, my favorite one is the elephant in the room. And when you just say that, everybody kind of looks at each other and does that. Yeah, she's absolutely right. My. My friend Julia, who is an EOS implementer over in England, she introduced me to a new animal, and it's called the Honesty Pig. And I use the Honesty Pig this week. And the Honesty Pig. The reason I said, why the pig? She said, well, if you think about it, a cat is just. When you're trying to have a, you know, a debate or a conflict with a cat, it's just going to be aloof or just, you know, lay down and not, you know, roll its eyes and not listen to you. A dog is going to look at you and wag its tail and be all happy and like, I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you say. But the pig. The pig is going to look you in the eye and tell you what is what? And so this week in one of my sessions, I picked up my honesty pig that I have and I said, I need to say something, folks. And this is going to be really awkward. We have an issue here that we need to solve today. I don't want you to kick the can down the road six to eight months. You're just band aiding the situation. So let's solve it today to move on for the greater good of the company. And I just sat there in silence thinking, oh God, oh God, are they going to say something? And somebody spoke up and said, absolutely, I think so. And so will be the right person in that seat. And I think so. And so will be the right person in that seat. Everybody in agreement? And everybody looked around and went, yeah. And then we moved on. But it just needed to happen.

[Ryan Hogan]

That's wild. And the right person, right seat, like, how have you ever had to either in a session room, or maybe you're pulling the visionary aside of like, what do you do when the right person, right seat issue is like in the session room?

[Sonya Jury]

It shows itself and it becomes a elephant in the room that sometimes people aren't willing to talk about. I mean, and again, Ryan, that's one of the things about what we do is I don't want to rip your company apart and the leadership team apart. That's not what I want to do. What I want to do is I want to shine a light on things that you have known for two years, three years, four years, five years, and help you with the confidence for you all to bring it up in the session so that you can address it and make the decision. That's really what we're trying to do. And we have to peel back the layers of the onion. It's not going to happen overnight. So, like the first three session days, Focus Day, VB1 and VB2, the leadership team is just trying to come together. They're just trying to wrap their head around what this thing is called eos. How do I do it? How do I master the tools? But then as they progress forward, it slowly starts showing who is the right person in the right seat and do they even need to be in the room? You know, I've started with eight person leadership teams. That's a lot of people. And when they realize we only need to be four or five, it is just life changing, not only for them, but the people that are no longer in the room. It doesn't mean that they're not important. It's I've got to be the right person in the right seat. And that means I may not sit at this leadership team level. And for some people, that is really hard. Especially if they've been at a company for 25, 30, 40 years, they think that they are entitled to be in that room to some extent. And they may be. However, if they are not focused on the business big picture and they're only focused in and their partner of the world, they don't belong. And that slowly happens as you go through the EOS process. And eventually, you know, the visionary and integrator will have the conversation with me and they'll be like, we don't think they are the right person in the right seat. And I said, and why is that? And they'll tell me and I'll go, okay, that's good. You're trusting in the tools. You're listening to your core values. You're listening to the concept of gwc. You're seeing what I'm seeing. And you know, Ryan, that's the hard part for what we do sometimes is it's not on us to tell them what to do. They know what to do. We just have to help them with the confidence to make the decision to do it. And that's really hard, especially if they have to let somebody go in this tight labor market. Yeah. But when they do, when they're a toxic individual and they let that person go, I mean, literally, the rest of the company just kind of breathes a sigh of relief because they say, thank you. That's exactly what we've been waiting for.

[Ryan Hogan]

When you, you talked about when people have to drop off of the slt, and that does, that does a lot to confidence and ego and kind of everything else that comes along with that. Like, have you seen that done? Right? And what, what does right look like if you've got to make hard decisions where it's a. It's a key teammate and it's someone that, that, like, is needed, that belongs on the team. They just don't. They don't fit for the senior leadership team. Have you seen instances where that's done? That's done correct and there's a positive outcome?

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah, I definitely have. And the one instance that I'm actually thinking of, there was an individual who sat in the operations seat and she realized she didn't gwc it anymore. That wasn't her jam. And she was sitting in that seat because there was no one else. Okay. And she kind of took it on as default, and she said, I do not GWC this seat. I Get it? I don't want it and I don't have the capacity that I want to sit in this seat. So can we go find somebody, elevate somebody up or go hire somebody? And so a lot of it is self awareness again, parking our ego at the door when we come in that we are there for the greater good of the business. The greater good of the business is not protecting my ego. It's am I the right person? And looking myself in the mirror, am I the right person to sit in this seat? And that's a really hard thing for some people to get. Some people do and some people don't. So that was a great example. And they ended up promoting somebody from within and life went on. And that person who also happened to be an owner in the business ended up sitting in a non senior leadership team seat and she was a happy camper after that. She was just yay. There are other companies where the owner is not the visionary, they're not the integrator. They sit in a sales seat reporting to a salesperson and they do that because that is their highest and best use. They love selling and the team needs it, the company needs it, they need them out there doing that. So it's just, Ryan, it's a lot of self awareness. It's looking into your internal self, soul yourself in the mirror really asking am I why do I want this seat? Do I want it because I really want it, I have a fire in my belly or do I want it because I think that I've earned it because I've been here for so long? They're two different things.

[Ryan Hogan]

I loved your example you just talked about with like the owner because I, I think al all too often, you know, when we start companies we think we have to lead them. We have to be in the most senior position. My former co founder of, of Hunt A Killer. Once we got to a certain size he was like what I love is writing great stories and then translating those stories into an amazing game. I don't love finance, I don't love all of these other aspects of the business. And that's a position that we put him in. So he's the co founder of this company and all he does all day long is makes games and he's happy we've got the best products on the market and it just like it worked perfectly. But I don't know, especially as owners, we get so trapped in this like it's my company. I need, I need there.

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah, I, it's interesting. I sat with a Visionary. This is going back to the EOS conference in Indianapolis a few years ago, and I got in kind of late and I just wanted to go grab lunch. So I just went to the, the bar that was at the hotel and I'm sitting there and three stools down was a gentleman. And he said, are you here for the conference? And I said, I am. And we just started chatting and he was a visionary. And he goes, oh, my gosh, I can't tell you how EOS has made a difference in our company because it's gotten me out. I'm like, now, what do you mean by that? He said, I was just in the middle of everything. I was meddling. They didn't need me, they just needed to go do. And I said, well, that's interesting. And I said, so are you enjoying being the visionary? He said, I am. And I said, do you feel bored? He goes, I do not. I said, do you feel you still have the self, the value, you know, because we as humans tend to identify as our jobs for whatever reason. And he goes, no, I don't feel that, that I've lost any of that. He said, I'm just helping people. That's what I love to do. And that really makes me a happy person. I was like, wow, that's fantastic. Not only did he have the self awareness as the owner company was very successful, but he just knew that they were all. He had the right people in the right seats doing what they needed to do to grow the business.

[Ryan Hogan]

What have you found is like, maybe it's the first three sessions, but like when you're working with a leadership team, you're working with a visionary like that. Like what, what generally is like, I don't want to say the stumbling block, but like the hardest thing from EOS to like implement, like where, where do you start running into resistance 80% of the time.

[Sonya Jury]

A lot of times it can be the visionary because the visionaries tend to be very creative, which I think you have that tendency, right? And they, they think that EOS is a containment vessel, if you will, that's containing their energy that, that, oh, I'm already so busy I can't add something else to my plate. And then, and that's what, when I just kind of lean in, I say, this is a habit that you're developing. Just like you brush your teeth in the morning. I hope, you know, you get in the car and you put your seatbelt on. I hope it's just something that you, it becomes a habit for running the business. And I said, so that's, that's what we're trying to build here. And a lot of times when people are giving me the Heisman or giving Eos the Heisman, what we find out, and again, it happens very quickly is they just don't want to be held accountable. They don't see the value. They like being. I don't want to say rogue. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. They just don't want to be held accountable. And that's then the root issue. It's not that EOS isn't working, they just don't want to be held accountable. And when you, and that happens and when you find that, you just shine a light on it and they either, you know, will say, well, I want to be here and I'll do the work, which really isn't that hard, or I don't want to be here and I'm going to go seek excellence elsewhere. And sometimes that happens.

[Ryan Hogan]

Yeah, where, where have you found, have you found like a niche or are you agnostic? Like where, where, where do you live as far as like clients and what you're looking for?

[Sonya Jury]

That's great. I really love the architect, engineer, contractor, the marketing world. Anything to do with creativity, that's my jam. I can really relate to those individuals. Let's see, who else do I have? I've got manufacturing world that I love. I truly love the people, you know, the blue collar that make things, that sell things for people, making planes, trains, automobiles, construction, building things. I love that aspect of it. I'm working with a restaurant group now and they are fantastic because again, they're creative, you know, and they're trying to put in some consistency for scalability, profitability and growth, which everybody is wanting to do. I've worked with insurance companies that again, you know, right now, so many companies are buying others. You know, the Ms. Pac man thing is happening in our world, if you will, and that's really fantastic. Especially if the company is running on Eos, then it helps the new company just get on board quicker because they've got their processes in place. Here's the accountability chart, here's the roles and responsibilities. And Ryan, you get it. When companies start out as an entrepreneur, you're wearing all these different hats to grow the business. But then at a certain point, you are wearing way too many hats and you become the bottleneck. So now you've got to let go. You've got to let go of the vine. You've got to trust and empower that's the word that I hear most, that I try and encourage my teams. You need to empower your people. I trust you. I hired you to do a job. I trust you. I empower you to go forth and do your job. And, you know, and then I'll get the. Well, they don't know how to do it. Then you got to train them. Well, that takes time. Well, then that's what you got to do. And, yeah, it's not easy. I'm not saying any of this is a walk in the park, but it doesn't have to be done overnight. And that's why I love the EOS process, because it shows you when and where you need to start tackling things. Don't do it all at once. Fix this, get this working, then go to this, then get this. That kind of thing.

[Ryan Hogan]

Yeah. When you were bringing up that example, the first thing that I thought about was there's an HBR article out there, and it talks about monkeys. And as you're walking down the hallway, monkeys jumping in the monkeys are problems. And so, like, your job as a leader is to, like, like, get through the hallway without everybody giving you their problems. And it's about empowerment. Like, that. That's kind of the, you know, it's. It's written in a, In. In a. In a fun way. But it's. To your point. It's the empowerment. It's. It's making sure that people understand that, like, you are empowered, you have the authority, you have the autonomy to solve these issues. And it's not a negative thing to, like, be like, I'm not, you know, I don't want to help or I don't want to solve your problems. It's just more about, like, you know, how do you. People are smart, they're intelligent, you hired them. They're. They're still on the team, especially if they've already implemented eos. And how do you empower them effectively?

[Sonya Jury]

Yeah. Yeah. And it takes time.

[Ryan Hogan]

What. So, Sonia, someone's been listening to this podcast, and they're like, holy crap. The.

[Sonya Jury]

My.

[Ryan Hogan]

The background that this, like, I run an architects firm. How can someone find you?

[Sonya Jury]

Well, there's LinkedIn. That's. That's the easiest. My EOS email is Sonya. S o n y a jury j u r y osworldwide.com. that's really the easiest way. And we. I. You can Google me. We have an eos, we have microsites. I also have a business. Sherpa website as well, is another way to find me. So so that's just a few ways.

[Ryan Hogan]

Nice. Love it. Sonia, thank you so much for joining. This was really fun, and especially, like, the correlations, because it's like, it's engineering, it's architecture, and, like, how did those things kind of translate? Like, how did you bring those things into the session room? And this was just a really fun, joyful conversation. So thank you so much, Ryan.

[Sonya Jury]

You are a treat. I thoroughly enjoyed this, and I'm very honored and humbled that you invited me me to do this, so thank you very much.