B (2:53)

Entrepreneurship is like really a funny thing because like, some people can want it, but they don't have it. Like, because you have to be willing to experience an enormous amount of pain to go down the entrepreneurial path. And crazy people like you and I do it because like chasing a dream, it's our passion, like whatever the case is, but like we're, we're willing to, I guess, just take the beating. Like it. Did you just have it all along or was it the influence of your parents and kind of seeing them through entrepreneurship? Like, like when were you like, this is going to be the path?

A (3:27)

I was always wired that way. I mean, you, you know, most of us are, right? I mean, I got in trouble in fifth grade because I was selling, you know, beaded jewel necklaces and like putting play DOH in like a stove. And it, you know, there it was like this big trendy thing back then. So I got in trouble. My fifth grade teacher, Mr. Sanders, like banned me from selling these things at school. Back then. I couldn't appreciate it. Now I totally understand it. Like what a distraction that was in high school. Like techno music was really popular. So I bought this music editing software and started, you know, I sold like hundreds of these CDs that I had. You know, I put like 12 tracks on them. They were my own stuff. And then I sold them to friends for like five bucks. That's a lot of money for a high schooler. I think I was in my sophomore year. So I always kind of was doing things like that. You know, you hear about lemonade stands or T shirt companies and things like that. So I was always doing it. My parents were both entrepreneurs, all three of my older siblings, entrepreneurs. So I mean, getting a, like going the traditional path and going out for interviews and getting a job. When I graduated, it wasn't even in my periphery. I wouldn't even know how to do that.

B (4:39)

You know, our backgrounds are pretty similar. I was selling creepy crawlers in third grade and Mrs. Price shut me down eventually. But it was like went from selling creepy crawlers to doing car washes, to shoveling snow, mowing grass. Like Just kind of continuing on with the trend. And then I had a really tough lesson later in life where, like, a business actually took off and it wasn't just like trading my time for, for, for money. Have you experienced something like that? Like, have you been not on the lucky side, but like, on the side where, where like, you've had some bumps but because of your experience, you were able to kind of pull it together or have you faced some like, crazy adversity in, in business?

A (5:22)

Yeah, my first business that when I was in real estate, I mean, I eventually went bankrupt, so that that business went bankrupt. I, I was in my, you know, early mid-20s and I had blind ambition. Like, my only care in the world was like, I was hell bent on becoming a millionaire by 25. Like, that was my number one goal. And nothing would get in the way of that. And it just, you know, I was very negligent. I put all of my eggs in that residential real estate basket. And when, you know, 708 rolled around and we, none of us were insulated from this, right? But like, I had everything in that basket. So I felt like overnight my, you know, assets became liabilities, good debt went to the bad debt column quickly. And as much as I tried to work with, you know, my lenders, it was early on and no one was budging. Right. So despite the fact that, you know, my loan amounts were actually higher than the new valuations of my real estate, you know, they just weren't working back then, early on, at least with people. So I had no other choice. I mean, I was in a pretty, pretty bad hole. So it was a tough experience at the time. Anytime you're in the eye of the storm, right, it's like, it's tough for those of us who are dealing with that, whether it's financial, relational, health, whatever it is. But looking back, it was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had. I mean, I learned so much about priorities and values and life and business and failure. And it just gave me some really good perspective. And it happened. I was very fortunate. It happened at a time when I could afford to make a mistake like that. I mean, back then I didn't have a family. I didn't have three children. I have three today. And it happened when it was kind of just me. So, yeah, sort of reinvented myself over the next year or two and probably should have went and gotten a job, but again, I didn't know how to do that. So I started, you know, my next business and then, know, a year or so in I, I saw myself going in the same direction and in my family, like if you go bankrupt, that's like black sheep territory, right? Like, like, wow, this is impressive. How did you actually manage this? Right? So I saw myself like making these same mistakes and like just getting over leveraged and things of that nature and no profits left in the business and I'm the only one, you know, sweating at 2:00am and, and it's just all consuming all the time. And I called my older brother to, I'll call it to vent to him for like an hour and he listened to me for about an hour and then when I finally shut up, he's like, look, I'm just going to send you this book. This was back in 2011. He's like, I'm just going to send you this book. And that book was traction. I hadn't had any exposure to eos just yet. And I remember reading that book and in those 228 pages or whatever it is, I'm like, I just learned more about entrepreneurship and how to run a great company that I learned in two and a half decades of like real world life experience, like sitting in the backseat of my dad and mom's car and like this is amazing. So he's like, I know you think you know best, but you know this author knows best, so do do it exactly how he prescribes. And I did and I was very, very grateful that I took his advice and you know, we, we self implemented back then with the help of Dan Wallace out of Chicago.

B (8:42)

What up, Dan? I was just, yeah, I discovered a lot of things about Dan recently, but he was out in la. We had just recorded a podcast, he was out in la. We went and we, we met up. But what I discovered with Dan is Dan's the actual implementer that came out to my Vistage group in 2017. So there's two things that have changed my life. One, one was EOS and two was Vistage. And I learned about EOS through Vistage because we had. What I now know is Dan that for some reason was in Seattle and came through Tom Leonard's. Tom Leonard's group. So cool. Yeah, crazy, crazy small world. See I struggled so I, Our stories are fairly the same. So my first company that actually took off, it was called Run for your Lives, scaled very, very quickly, made every mistake in the book and ultimately like two and a half, three years into it, went bankrupt and took me down, took my co founder down, took the company down, just everything and like I took a break And I had to take a break, and I did it through the Navy because I was still active duty. I was just getting my commission.

A (9:51)

Thank you for your service, by the way.

B (9:53)

Thanks, Sean. Like, what do you think? Or what did you go through, like, when the company went bankrupt, were you, like, what a relief, because I've been trying to, like, save this thing for God knows how long, and now the phones have died down. What was going through your head?

A (10:06)

It was a little bit of a crisis as far as, like, my identity, because again, back then, when it happened, my. My whole identity was wrapped up in status and material possessions. Nice houses, fancy cars, all that good stuff. I mean, I. That was. I just. My whole identity was consumed by all of that. That. That status. And so when I lost everything, it was a real shakeup. Um, I feel like I lost a part of myself. I lost a little bit of my identity. I was going through embarrassment and guilt and shame. And, like, I remember my. I owed some money at that point to my folks. It's funny because, like, in high school, I would always go golfing with friends, and I had Mom's credit card, right? And so I would, you know, every other round, I would charge to her and get the cart and, you know, buy a round of hot dogs for my buddies. And she kept tabs for, like, eight years. And when I. When I graduated college, she's like, oh, and here's the bill you owe us. And I'm like, what. What is this? It was a lot of money. And she's like, well, that's. That's, like, every charge you made from, like, freshman year in high school through, you know. And I'm like, you kept track of all this. I mean, she's just an animal with numbers and finance. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. So I can remember very vividly sitting with my attorney. It was the final meeting where I was signing the bankruptcy paperwork, and he was asking me, you know, are you sure there's no one else you want to include in this bankruptcy? And sort of casually, not without thinking much about. I'm like, I. Well, yeah, I kind of. You know, I do owe my parents some money, but I don't want to. I don't want to include that, because I knew letters were going out. And so I'm like, yeah, but it's not a big deal. And he's like, how much is it? And I. I shared it with him, and he's like, you should include that. And so I let him convince me to include that. So I Can just remember sitting in my car and, like, I signed the paperwork. In my mind, I'm envisioning, like, my mom and dad going to their mailbox and getting a letter from the government and saying that, you know, the debt has been forgiven. You know, it's just like, oh, it's like the ultimate failure. I just remember everyone's driving by, walking by, everyone's moving on with their lives, and I was just like, at a dead stop. So it was a good moment of clarity and, you know, sobriety and everything else that, like, wow, I got to get my stuff together. So I got ahead of that. I called them and, you know, to share the news of what had happened. And I never forget my. My dad's like. And this is. He said this a thousand times, Ryan, but, like, you know, we need to hear things a few times before they really register. And he's like, you know, Sean, he's like, no one is responsible for you but you. Like, he wasn't upset. He handled the news gracefully. But he's like, no one's responsible for you but you. And it just hit me like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's just me out here. It was a feeling of just isolation and aloneness and kind of feeling lost, right? And then my mom chimed in and she's like, it's time to find a quiet room and figure things out for yourself. So, like, it was like a one, two punch, and it was the words that I needed to hear at the right time, and that really, really registered with me. So I'm grateful that they were. You know, they've always been supportive and they've been a real blessing for me and they never gave up on me, so I always appreciate them for that.

B (13:27)

Also, I've went through something similar. So my in laws had invested into a company called Warware, and Warware was kind of the. The feeder for run for your lives because Warware was failing. It was an athletic performance T shirt. And I was like, we've got.

A (13:42)

Sorry to interrupt. What was run for your lies.

B (13:45)

Run for your lies was that's a zombie infested 5K obstacle course race. So, like one of the fastest growing we there was like spartan tough mudder warrior dash, and we were actually number three. We wouldn't push it, but, like, we were actually number three. In 2012, we scaled from one event to 13 events to 25 events. And I think we got through about 15 of the 25 in 2013, and then we bankrupted.

A (14:11)

That sounds amazing. How did you mess that one up?

B (14:14)

I. Well, one, I hired all my best friends. Two, I couldn't spell. I couldn't spell P and L. Gosh, there's like, so many things that went wrong there.

A (14:27)

The inmates were running the asylum on that one.

B (14:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not. It was. It was not good. We made a lot of money, but by make a lot of money, that doesn't mean we held onto a lot of money. And the problem was when you get into events or other things where you're purchasing something that's not happening to the future, how you book that on your balance sheet is called either unearned or deferred revenue. And it goes on your balance sheet as a liability, and it kind of pulls it away from the cash. So you're. The problem is we were looking at the bank account to figure out where to invest in, and it's like we were using other people's money the whole time. It looked like we were making money, but we weren't. Because once the deferred transferred over into real revenue, it was a recognized revenue. So had to, like, war. Where was the feeder for. For that war where was failing? And then I called up my best friend. I was like, hey, let's start an event, and we'll put a. We'll put the logo on the shirts, and then we'll give these away for free. So this company that you and I start will buy the shirts from this company so I can move, you know, $150,000 of inventory. Thankfully, it worked. The problem is, eventually run for your lives went bankrupt. And so I had similar. Similar situations. And like, I added it. I added some of that debt to the list. In the back of my brain, I'm like, you know, once there's. Once there's something like, it's. It's always going to go back. How. How did you reconcile that? So it sounds like a one, two punch, a pretty challenging conversation. And then, like, how did you look at that? Or how do you look at it today? Or. Or how did you look at it then?

A (16:06)

Between my parents and myself.

B (16:09)

Yeah.

A (16:09)

Well, I mean, I obviously felt bad about it. I was relieved after the conversation. It was a tough call. And then I think over the next 18 months, maybe 24, max, I paid him back every cent. So I felt like I did the right thing, did the best I could with what I had at the time, you know?

B (16:29)

Okay, and so you had some. It's. It's wild to me that, like, you didn't go. Like, you didn't go and get a job how did you get through? Like, for me, it was a very dark moment. I'm assuming you had similar things. You talked about identity and like find a quiet room and kind of all these other things. Like what strategies did you actually use to like, to work your way to like build yourself back up?

A (16:53)

Well, I was fortunate. So two things from a financial perspective. This was.05. No. Yeah.05.06,07. So that's like the days of Craigslist, right? So like after a house was ready to show, I would put it on the market. And back then, like launching a website with the home address was like a. No one was doing it. So I'd buy a domain, you know, 1, 2, 3, main street.com, whatever, put a beautiful website together and then I would use Craigslist back then to market my open houses. So like a lot of the different homes in the neighborhood had hardly any traffic through it. And I had dozens of people on Sundays through the house. So I knew how to. I was always good with the web, so I was always pretty good with building websites, digital marketing, all that good stuff. So when I went bankrupt, the next logical step for me was to actually start building websites and marketing websites for, for businesses, right? And back then when I, you know, I had some investors I worked with. So if I found a house and it didn't have the right criteria that I'm looking for as far as margins, whatever size, location, I had a book of investors that I could say, like I could bird dog for, right? And say, hey, I got one. Do you have any interests? Put a small finders fee on top of it. They would close it, their crews would fix it up and then they would rehire me to list the house. Right? Well, they were, some of them were full time, some of them were business owners. So it was kind of nice because I had a very small database at the time of business owners who had dilapidated websites. So I just, and I sort of had a track record with them, right? Like they, they liked me, they knew me, they trusted me because I had followed through on whatever work we were engaged with at the time. So I sort of had maybe I, I would say 10 to 10 to 12 business owners. And I approached them and said, hey, you know, I'm out of this real estate game. However, here's what I'm doing next. Would you give me a shot at redesigning your website and handling your digital marketing, whatever that looked like back then? It wasn't a lot. So that kind of was a natural segue into building a digital Marketing agency. As far as personally, I started reading a ton of books. I couldn't afford to like go to a seminar on personal development or professional development and I couldn't afford a coach back then. I couldn't, I couldn't do group coaching. I just didn't have a lot of cash. So I started renting a ton of books from the library. I started buying books on Amazon back then. So I just got into personal and professional growth through, through books. And I started reading like a book sometimes more every week. And that to me was very therapeutic. That, that was tremendous for my growth as far as just like going all in with learning and personal and professional development. So that was a really big turning point for me.

B (19:48)

Did you take any of the lessons from the. Because it, it's the, the only, the only thing that's like hard here is it's kind of two different industries. But like, are, are there macro things that, that you learned through that experience that you then applied to the marketing agency?

A (20:03)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was always very transparent and very open and honest about these deals as far as if I, if I wasn't going to take one, I would, you know, I had already investigated everything. So when I would go to my investors, I would share with them the good, the bad, the ugly. Like, I didn't want any stone unturned. I didn't want them to find something that I withheld or anything like that. So it was a very transparent transaction. Right. And I took that into the digital marketing agency because a lot of business owners would, you know, call us for a website and they would want to invest in a new website and they'd want to invest in all this digital marketing. And then we would, you know, we'd probe a little bit and ask them clarifying questions like, well, where, where are your leads coming from? And we'd find out that like 80% of them were coming by way of referral. And then, you know, 10%, this 5 and 5, some other random things. But it's like, so, so none of these are coming from Twitter. Like, your ideal client is probably not tweeting and hanging out on Twitter. You know, he's like B2B. Right? So it's like, okay, so we can revamp the website for a very cost effective price. And you know, what if we, what if we didn't lean into digital just yet because, you know, you're hyperlocal, whatever it was, what if we actually created a referral system instead? So you are, you're obviously looking to generate more leads Grow your top line. So what if we reallocated this, you know, $50,000 a year you want to spend on Twitter and Facebook and all this other stuff. Craigslist. And what if we instead designed a turnkey referral system that your sales people can just sort of layer right into their existing sales methodology? So I always felt like we did the right thing as far as, like we would call it out first. We would never say yes to anything if we didn't believe in it ourselves. Right. And I think that that helped because people saw that sort of that unbiased guidance approach. It's like, I don't have a dog in your fight. We're going to fly in, we're going to have our little, you know, project or engagement and then we're done. And we rely heavily on referrals. So the last thing we want to do is burn bridges with our clients. So if we can just tell the truth and provide our unbiased perspective and guidance up front, hopefully we can earn their trust and have, you know, repeat at bats and also have it lead to some referrals. Right. So I just think transparency was a big thing that, you know, happened through the real estate days, through the digital marketing, and I think it still holds true to today. As an EOS implementer, I've heard quite.

B (22:38)

A bit we talk about we self implement today and hunt a killer. Self implemented at first and then we could afford to go out and find an expert implementer when there's a lot of talk around the people analyzer and how to use it and things like that. And one of the things, I think this came from when we were working with Margaret, but it's this notion of like, you can use the people analyzer for, for everything. Like when you're going, you're looking for a vendor when you're looking for, when you're looking at a client, obviously when you're looking internally at your team, it's.

A (23:12)

Great for top grading clients. Yep.

B (23:14)

That, and that's, that's exactly it. And I think that's kind of what you were getting at there is like you would turn away clients that like either one, you didn't believe in their product or stuff like that. Would you also turn them down if, like there was a misalignment in values?

A (23:27)

Oh, 100% still do, yeah. Life's too short. I mean, that's a big lesson I learned in bankruptcy is like, life's too fricking short, you know, and I value my peace of mind. It's probably one of My highest priorities, you know, and there's nothing worse than, well, anyone you work with. It could be an employee, vendor, customer, whatever it is. But it's hard, it's hard when you're working with someone where there's a values conflict, right? So my favorite application for the People Analyzer, and I strongly encourage my clients to do this, is to just layer it into their interview process. It is not foolproof, right? But a lot of us can just get a good, get like a gut sense about somebody, right? You invest 30 minutes on an interview and you just have a pulse. You have a gut sense, right? It's an, it's, it's at an energetic level or an energy level. And let's say that there's a three step interview process and let's say that a unique person within the organization does each interview, right? So interview 1, 2, 3, done by three different people. I think it's really helpful if you layer that into the interview process and just use your gut. Because after that first interview concludes, that person who did the interview with that candidate can just sort of best guess. Here's what I felt about my 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes with the candidate as it relates to our values and as it relates to do. I personally feel like they get the job, want the job, have the capacity to do it well. And if you can use that as a filter, oftentimes you might break a tie, right? Like you might have two candidates that you think are both really good candidates or you're sort of desperate to make a hire and you're not impressed with anyone. But there's two that might be decent. If you pop the hood and look at the historical data that was input by the interviewers, it might be helpful as just a tiebreaker. But that tool is great because it kind of brings the subjective to a place of objectivity, right? So it's like we've always, all of us have been there where we're like, there's something about Bob, right? Like, I just can't put my thumb on it. But there's just something about this guy that rubs me the wrong way. Oftentimes it's a value conflict, right? So just five, ten seconds into that tool, you might be like, oh, that's what it is. He's arrogant, right? And we have a value of, you know, be humbly confident and that, that's where the conflict lies. So it just warrants a conversation usually, right? Just an open and honest dialogue where you can provide some, you know, objective, open, honest feedback to that Employee, probably. You wouldn't. With a candidate, you just would probably say, thanks, but we're moving in a different direction. Right. But, yeah, it's a neat tool.

B (26:10)

There's something about Bob that was my dad's favorite movie. So, like, every weekend for. For five years, I would watch it.

A (26:15)

So what is it? Last bus to Lake Winnipesaukee.

B (26:19)

Bob.

A (26:19)

Right? That's my dad. Like, I'm so traumatized from my dad. As far as, like, any time we would fly, he's very claustrophobic. Anytime we would fly, he would be, like, on and off the plane. And us kids, we would be sitting there like, is dad coming? Is he gonna make it? Like, he would almost get kicked off of flights. I remember being in St. Louis, and we're going up in this. In this little bubble up to the top of the arch. And my. One of my older sisters and I were there. We were fly fishing. We grew up doing a lot of that with my dad. We were very lucky. And my dad was in the bubble with us. And it's tiny, right? And you're way up in the sky. And there was this newlywed couple. They were, like, having their honeymoon in St. Louis. And my dad must have gotten in and out of that bubble at least two dozen times in five minutes. And this poor couple was holding hands, and they looked like a deer in headlights because they knew they would be stuck with this crazy guy all the way up to the top of the bubble. And my. I was probably, like, 8, and my sister was, I don't know, 15, 16. We're both like, we are so sorry for our dad. Like, he'll make it. He just needs another 10 minutes. Like, he'll be okay. He's gonna be all right.

B (27:31)

That's. I.

A (27:33)

Like, on or off the bus, Bob? Like, are you kidding?

B (27:38)

That's. Oh, my goodness. I believe it. I used to fly in helicopters for the Navy. I started also as an enlisted air crewman and then eventually became a sw. There's a longer story there, but I have trouble flying today, and I don't know if it's claustrophobic or not. And there was also. Where were we? I think we were in Vegas. We were in Vegas, and they got that big Ferris wheel that's basically a bubble, and we were doing that. I didn't get in and out five times, but it was an uncomfortable position. So some stuff. But your stories are very funny. He's like, in, out, in, out.

A (28:15)

Yeah. Can I share something that works for me?

B (28:18)

Yeah.

A (28:19)

Because I have a fear of Heights. I mean, it was a lot worse. I used to actually get vertigo, but I. But I'm a big fan of exposure therapy, right? So I'd force myself into these situations and start small and work my way up. But I was on. There's a Ferris wheel down here in the colony, and it's at this big shopping center. And it's not the biggest Ferris wheel in the world, but to me it's like, overwhelming. So I'm there with my kids and they're like, dad, let's go on the Ferris wheel. And I'm like, ah, we got to go, guys, you know, like, nah, maybe another time. They're like, dad, we're here, let's do it. I'm like, fine. They get in there. My palms are dripping wet. These three kids, Ryan, are like shaking the car like I'm about to have a panic attack. But what really helps me is gratitude. Like, for whatever reason, I just find that, like if I'm in a situation this only. I've only tried this with heights, right? But like, if I'm starting to panic, I just sort of take a few breaths and it's just like, I just think about everything I'm grateful for in that exact moment, right? So it's like I'm so grateful that I'm here on the afternoon with my kids. We've got beautiful weather. What an amazing view we have. Like to be alive in this. Like, I just start flooding myself with it and it usually takes 30 or 45 seconds. But then Dad's back to normal. Dad needs a gratitude break. It could be a minute. Just give me a second. And stop rocking the frickin cart, please.

B (29:42)

That's that. That is. I'm gonna have to try try that out. I thought I had a. It's not. It wasn't gratitude, but that's brilliant. I'm gonna try that next time. Especially on a flight. I don't know. Have you ever been to Disneyland out here in la?

A (29:58)

No, we've always went to Florida, which is Disney World, I think, right?

B (30:02)

Yeah, much better. The. So they've got a Ferris wheel out here and this was like literally just last year. And like, I'm a Ferris wheel guy. I'll go on Ferris wheels all day long. They've got in Disneyland where it's on a track and so as it's going up, it'll like come over the hump and then it goes down this track and it starts swinging. I have never held on to the cage as hard as I held on that. It's like you're out of like I'm fine with Ferris wheels, I'm fine with heights. But this, it just, it's the most out of control feeling. And like kids are screaming and having fun everything and I'm, I'm literally there like I'm going to die. I'm dead. That's. Yeah, definitely. It'll make your palm sweaty just like watching one of the videos. How did the marketing firm end? What, what, what happened? Obviously you're an eos influential. I want to get into that a little bit as well and, and some of your amazing experiences there. What happened with the marketing agency?

A (30:56)

Yeah, so it was great. I mean I think I was, let me think about that. It's around for a while. It was a good, maybe a little less than a decade now that I think about it. But what was neat is we came up with some neat like web based software based on client requests. So very early on, this is probably 2011, 2012, we had a client, pretty big exercise manufacturer and they said, hey, we want you to run a video testimonial campaign with our customers. And we're like great. And they're like, it's going to be six months, here's the budget, we're like, great, we'll go find some software that can accommodate that. And so we went in search of some software and really not much existed back then. And like if you think about it, I don't even remember what kind of a phone existed in 1112 but it took a long time to upload a video, right? Or to send a video. And it was like we all had these data plans stuff so if you weren't on wifi, like it's costly. So we built this technology that would sort of bypass that and then we built like it was a thing that you could embed on a website. And so a company could essentially come in, sign up for this SaaS, right? Web based software and then they could create these different campaigns and just embed this code in their website and then this little recorder would come on. People could just record a video from the comfort convenience of their own home or they could use their phone if it had a camera and then easily send to the company, they could approve or deny it and then these things would display. So this exercise manufacturer, we came back and we said, you know, we would love to run this, manage this campaign for you, but there's nothing out there that exists that we can just license. So I'll tell you what. And we had like seven and amazing development Company. We had seven developers in India that basically worked full time for us and had a project manager. They were amazing. So we said to this client, we said, can, what if, what if we built this? We own the rights to it, it's our proprietary technology. But we just licensed it to you for like, you know, 99 bucks a month. And they were like done. That's great. So we got the project, the project fee, we managed it and I think it took maximum four weeks for these developers to build it. It was fantastic. And so then we went out to all of our other clients and all of a sudden we're licensing the software for 99 bucks a client, which is fun. And then we went out to Google and we started using AdWords and marketing it. And back then people searching for video testimonial software. It was small, there's probably a couple hundred searches a month max. But we got all the clicks and the clicks were dirt cheap. So that was, you know, really fun. So a lot of it was due to like clients would make a request, we'd go and search, couldn't find it, asked them if we can build it. So eventually that we ended up, you know, selling those softwares off. But what EOS helped me to decide with EOS or with, with our web company was that I ran out of gas. Like I just didn't have the passion any longer. I was so invested in it. It was one of those like, you know, I had a young family and I was grinding after they go to sleep. I was grinding early in the morning, grinding all day, and I just got sick of it. And what's hard about agencies is you have to out compete yourself every month. And what I mean by that is like, you know, we were working with an H vac company. They did about, I don't know back then, maybe 15 million in annual gross revenues. We were maybe managing $80,000 a month primarily across, I think Google and a little bit on Twitter, but mainly Google. Well, they went from like a $350 cost per lead to like $42 in about six months. And then we would report back the next month and like, oh, cost per lead went up to $51. And what happened?

B (35:13)

It's short term memory loss.

A (35:15)

Hold on a minute. Like this is dialed in. We're about to hand it back to you so your marketer can manage it like it's almost set and forget. But you know, these ads get exhausted after a while and you need to keep the creative going in some of the, you know, wordsmithing and all that. There's some maintenance there, but it's not much. And for the amount you're paying us, you might as well take it back in house. But it's like we went from 350 to 42 and now we had a little speed bump. We're up to 51, but it's still pretty good. Did you expect $0 per lead someday? Like, that's pretty darn good, you know, so what would happen is we'd really do well and then we would sort of hit a wall and it was because of, you know, ad fatigue or other competitors chasing and doing the same things we were right. Or cost per clicks going up. And that's just how these platforms work, unfortunately. So you get to the point in, you know, some point in time where it's like, it's no longer sustainable to dump that amount of volume of cash into it. So it just got exhausting because every project we take on, I depending on the industry, I'd be like, we're going to have a three month Runway with this. This one might be a 12 month, but it's like eventually they're going to come back and say, you're not improving like you used to be. And there's not a whole lot that we're in control of that we could do to continue competing or improving. So I just got a little, you know, a little sick of it. And eventually what we did was we cut all different service lines and we only did websites. And what was really cool is like, you know, we had multiple big breakthroughs in that agency. And one of them was, you know, first one was like, we got to stop saying yes to business cards and billboards and marketing flyer. Like, we're saying yes to everything and we don't have a process for everything. We don't have people that are experts in all these areas. So we started sort of slimming down our service lines. And then we got to the point when we were getting frustrated with, you know, managing these ad campaigns. We're like, if we're going to do one thing and do it well, let's just build the best website on the planet. So then we got story brand certified for a handful of years as an agency. And we had a really nice template where essentially you would. We would, if we could meet with a client for 90 minutes, we'd have everything we needed and we could turn around a website in two weeks and they would go from like generating nothing to a, you know, sales people are underwater now. And all we would do is replace the copy and the imagery and the branding and the logo and all that. But it was a really nice. We called it the homepage atm. It was a really nice website framework. And then the next one, the biggest one, was when we stopped working with just anybody and we only served companies running on eos. And the reason we did that is because our biggest frustration was not, you know, we charged 50% up front and then 50% on the back end. And we'd say, we can turn around in three weeks, four weeks, and like, oh, yeah, wink, wink, okay, we'll see. And then we did. But the problem is we couldn't get. You know, these people are busy people, and they were smaller companies. We were usually dealing with the business owner, sometimes a marketer, if they were big enough. Right. But what happened was we had a hard time getting feedback or getting approval on the launch. So now we've got, you know, our AR went up, our receivable. You know, we're waiting on a lot of money here because these people are busy and rightfully so. They're visionaries. And we understand that the priority is way down here. It's a website, right? And most people would rather get a root canal than have to build a new website. And we appreciated that. So what we started doing was like, we want a leadership. We want to be working with a leadership team, and we want someone in that room to own a rock called, develop a new website. And now we knew they were being held accountable every week with their peers on their team. And we knew that there was a deadline, a firm deadline that they were very motivated to hit it by. And all of a sudden, AR went back to where it usually was, and we turned around a lot of projects in a short amount of time because we knew someone was being held accountable in that room for updates and feedback and all the rest of it. So that that just changed our business. And we ran that way for a few years. Then again, eventually I started doing EOS for other companies back in 2015. And at that point, my team was very small. There was three or four of us because we didn't require this huge team any longer. We weren't necessarily an agency model. We were like, we do one thing and we're going to do it well. So we got focused, right? And then we started dialing in our target market and who we were willing to work with and all those psychographics, and that just made us better and better and better. But we got to the point where it's like writing's on the wall I love the work I'm doing with, with these other clients as it relates to the EOS implementation. I'm moving in that direction. And I think I gave everyone a six month Runway and I'm pretty sure that everyone was in a better job with better pay and better, you know, perks and benefits and all the rest of it within the next 90 days. And, and when we provided references, I mean, we, we were very transparent about the decision. Right. So eventually we just, I just shut, shut it. It was a, it was a clean break. Shut it down. Everyone who we hosted, we, you know, handed to a referral partner who we felt would be good. And then moving forward for a couple years, we would get inquiries and we would just politely pass them along to a gentleman out of Chicago who we liked, knew and trusted. So it was a clean getaway. But EOS helped me realize like, hey, I can keep doing this, but I'm sort of losing my, my, my pilot light here. Like, I'm just, it's not a joyful, it's not joyful work for me any longer. I just burnt out.

B (41:03)

All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too, at Hunt a Killer, we were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiter recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds, if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service, we do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent Harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired. Was there, was there a way to like get into a visionary seat and just like check in once a week, once a month? If you put the right integrator in place.

A (42:33)

There was. And another thing that EOS helped me realize and you know, I'm always excited when my clients have this light bulb. But for some clients it happens maybe 12 to 18 months in. But EOS helped us grow to a certain point that we had never been at as far as revenue and number of people. And then what sort of hit me like a ton of bricks is I don't enjoy, I have no balance, I don't enjoy this pressure, this stress. And there's got to be a better way and we could continue going in that direction and you know, be hell bent on hitting this long term target that we identified. And then I read Small Giants by Bo Burlingham and I'm like, that's what I've been feeling, you know, for a good year is like, I've been feeling this, like we want to be great but not necessarily big. Right? So I think, yeah, I think there was definitely we were heading in that direction for a good year maybe until like for me it was this internal feeling like I don't know if this is what I truly want any longer. And after I read that, the light bulb went off like, oh. And I think it was around that time where we really reduced the amount of prospects we were marketing to. And I think that's where we got clear on EOS run companies only. And that's going to solve so many issues. So we really just, it kind of took, it took a hit in our target market definition within our business plan or vto.

B (43:57)

Right.

A (43:58)

If you're familiar with the US. So that, that was a big, big moment for us was just to like kind of regroup, get back to a certain level of revenue, but also number of people on the team and just have everyone have a better life.

B (44:14)

Yep. That's awesome. Would you consider, here's one thing that we've been kind of struggling with. And so my last company, Hunt A Killer, it was subscription recurring revenue base. Now we were still sort of in the acquisition game, but just because of ambitions and goals and stuff like that. And so like it was less focus on retention when we started Talent harbor. Basically we wanted to do things differently. Like Hunt a Killer spent about a million bucks on recruiting. It never made sense to me. I think it's a disgusting industry and I think there's a lot of good that we could do. And so our whole approach has been making expert recruiting, which is truly a competency, accessible to small, medium sized businesses. And so what we did is we developed this model. It's a Flat monthly rate. We stay as long as they need us. They turn us on, turn us off. I thought it was going to be a retention based business. It is not. It's an acquisition business. Like we work with generally small, medium sized companies, generally directly with the owner and you know, that's, it's a hefty fee for them. Now we still save them 50, 60% but like they look at the balance, their credit card statement each month, they're like, that's like, I gotta, I gotta fill this position. And it's like brought a lot of things to light. Were you in an acquisition based business? Like you had to keep the pipeline full or else because like how many websites does someone need in one year or two years?

A (45:40)

I can't remember, I think it was like one every five or seven is like home ownership. You had to rely heavily on referral. You had to keep that flywheel, that business development flywheel going at all times.

B (45:50)

Right.

A (45:51)

It was tough.

B (45:51)

I hear you on that. And like that's something like we're growing, we're having a lot of fun, we're doing great work for great clients. But like I like it is like what I'm discovering. It's an easy way to burn out because like you're focusing all the areas of the business. But if your pipeline dries up, like you kind of know, you can kind of like guesstimate how it's going to decline, you know, for the next several months.

A (46:13)

I love your, I love your model. I think it's brilliant. I mean we talked about that. Especially with like sales, sales organizations. I mean it's just awesome.

B (46:21)

Thank you. And like to your point, there is like, so when we started this, we were completely agnostic. We would work with anybody anywhere for any role. And what we realized at the end of last year is about 80% of our clients were using us for sales roles. And it's one of the hardest roles to recruit for because even if they're not great at like selling your product or service, they're always going to be great at selling themselves. And so it's like, it's a really hard thing and there's not a lot of recruiters in this space, or at least big ones. And so like what we found, what we found is then we leaned in sales roles, we got really good at sales roles. And then we pivoted the entire company late last year, early this year into just sales roles. And like it's funny because like everybody including myself, like we're all worried about niching down because we're like, there's less opportunity. Like we're going into these very specific verticals and, and that, and it's like when you find that clarity and focus, the, the message, the value proposition, everything gets much more clear, much, much more crisp and, and people just, people just run with it. So experience the same thing you did with less, less thought. Like we accidentally stumbled in. You were much more intentional with it, which is awesome.

A (47:35)

Well, it's, it's scary too. I mean, those niches can be scary. Cause you feel like, you know, you, you, you start to identify what they could be and then you, you have this feeling of scarcity, right? And if you don't have revenue coming in, it's, it's scary. It's a scary decision to make. I mean, for us, it took us, you know, those evolutions were, there were years in between those, you know what I mean? So either we were in so much pain from providing these other services that we were finally willing to make the decision, you know, or it was so clear and obvious due to time. It was our greatest teacher and we finally understood it. But it's a scary decision to make to say, you know what? I'm going to stop working with all these people and just focus on that small niche or niche. That takes a lot of guts.

B (48:20)

It does, it does. And now I realize we only have five minutes left and we didn't even get into your eos. I'll tell you one thing that I find interesting about what you're doing with EOs, and then maybe we can dive into some of your, you know, some of the examples right now. But what's really interesting about your story is like, in my experience, the best EOS implementers are the ones where, like, they figured out it was their true passion. Sometimes the stories are like, you know, I implemented, self implemented EOS into my business and then eventually we sold it and did something else. Like you, you've been so passionate about this and like, it's kind of like you found your purpose that you just wound down your last company and said, I'm, I'm going to do this full time. I think that's really cool. What, what areas do you focus on? Are you agnostic as far as clients? Like, what, what do you look for in a client?

A (49:10)

I wish I had a niche. It's a blessing and a curse, right? So a lot of us implementers, their, their business development, a lot of its referrals, right? Like, we rely heavily on referrals. So when that's the case, you really have no control over who it is you're being introduced to. So I think I've had the good fortune of working with 90 some clients over the last 10 years across like 30 some odd verticals, industries, markets. I wish I had a niche. I'm sitting here today very randomly with like five healthcare companies as of three years ago. I've never worked with a healthcare company before. Right. So I don't necessarily have a niche. I mean my, I, I've got a tiny home manufacturer I'm working with who's phenomenal, a handful of manufacturers, healthcare companies, dental practices, staffing agencies, recruiting. I mean it's just, it's all over the place. The one niche that I've somewhat been spending some time on the last 18 months are self implementing companies. There's another implementer here by the name of Justin Mink, great implementer out of Dallas. He and I did a traction mastermind for about a year here locally like butts and seats. It was great. It was a really neat forum where you know, all these self implementing companies would come, come together, we'd load up the issues list and we'd do like two hours of pure IDS and some tool trainings and things of that nature and oftentimes the room sort of facilitated themselves. Right. Other times it was like the blind leading the blind. So we would kind of know where to step in and say oh yeah, have you considered this? Because if you continue doing that way, here's danger ahead, right? So it was really fun. We met some amazing people, amazing companies and I like working with self implementers because I've, you know, I self implemented in four companies. I know how to difficult it is, you know how tough it can be. You're always wondering if you're doing things right so there's always that little, you know, buzz of uncertainty going on and I know where all the bones are buried. So I love when I can get in front of a self implementing team, have a 90 minute meeting with them and actually use their tools in real time, help them validate what they're doing really well, share some areas where they might need some improvement and you know, I would say 7 out of 10 times they're self implementing because they don't have the budget to hire someone and that's okay and then we'll stay in touch, they can use me as a resource and someday maybe they'll want to hire an implementer. Hopefully I'm at the top of the list. Other times they refer other businesses who do have budgets and are Excited to work with an implementer and implement eos. So for me it's just good karma put out into the universe. And I'm a big fan of the law of reciprocity. It's never failed.

B (51:51)

I agree. Like our, our number one, our number one core value, not that they should be like ranked, but is go givers.

A (51:59)

Bob Berg.

B (52:00)

Yes. And what's really easy, what's really easy about it is like when someone joins our team, obviously, like we've evaluated them based upon core values alignment, those things, but because we made one of our core values like kind of named after a book, like we give that book as a part of the onboarding so they understand what that looks like and what it feels like.

A (52:19)

That's awesome. And that's our help first value. That's awesome. It's a great value to have. Yep. And when you get together with other go giver type people or help first people, it's like magic.

B (52:32)

That's why I do this podcast. Like this just allows me to like stay in touch with people that like share values and vision and stuff like that. I, I, I love this thing. It's not even, it's not even a job. It's, I don't know, I feel very.

A (52:43)

Very fortunate and you get to connect with great people. You know, you have to deal with me today. But for the most part.

B (52:51)

We'Ve had more laughs on this one than most of my other ones, unfortunately, at your misery right now, but at my expense. And if I could make one plug or one shout out to what you just said about self implementers when we self implemented. So it was Dan, Dan came through, gave a presentation and my team used to hate Fridays after Vistage because they'd be like, oh God, here he comes. He's got a thousand things that he's going to change, tweak or whatever. But this was one that I was adamant about and I was like, listen, like there's, there's like good idea fairies constantly. But this is something we're going to take seriously and we're going to implement immediately. And I'll tell you, even self implementing it was like 180 for, for the business. And it was incredible. To your point, like the creeping suspicion, like we're probably not fully implement, we're probably missing something here. When we went out, we went out. Margaret Dixon on the border was our, our implementer. Like, first thing she said when we walked into the room, she was like, what the, what the heck are you guys doing? Like, and we, we were like, you know, we run on EOs, we, we know how to do all this stuff and it was incredible because like an implementer can take you to the next level. And so is eos, even self implementing going to be, you know, a game changer for your business? 100%. But I would say like get ready as soon as possible to bring in an expert or some sort of like professional implementer because like it's a whole nother level of unlock for the business and, and we experience that.

A (54:17)

So yeah, someone I wish I knew who to give credit for and I don't and maybe if this is on LinkedIn we can tag this person in the comments. But a couple quarterly meetings ago, you know, we get together as implementers, eat our own food and practice what we preach and all the rest of it. Someone said, I wish I could remember who this was but someone said, you know, like having the book Traction or EOS is sort of like a gym for your business. Just because you have membership doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get results, right? Hiring an implementer is like hiring a personal trainer at that gym. The level of accountability is going to increase, you're going to get better results, you're going to get those results faster. So it's just the, you know, some of us value hiring coaches and others don't and that's okay, right? It's just a preference. But it's funny, I, dan did a 90 minute meeting for us and I was so excited because my, he was a referral from my brother. They know each other and you know, I heard about how much it costs. I'm like, I'm going to pay him one check upfront for the year. Like I need him. I don't want to do this right? Like I want someone in the room. And he's like, you're too small. He's like, I won't work with you. And I'm like, I can cut you a check for the year. Screw this. One session, guaranteed at a time. I'll give you the whole year up front. And he's like, I, I can't. He's like, but I know your brother. He said you, if someone could self implement, it's you. I'm here to help you. And I'm just like, I mean that was such a gift at the time I was mad at him. No, I'm like, what are you turning me down? You know, but that was him sticking to his target market and not, you know, kissing a frog like me at the time. So I appreciate it. And he was so helpful. So helpful. And that's part of what this part of me is like just giving it back or paying it forward, whatever you want to call it. It's like Dan did so much for me and he helped me and gave me so much of his wisdom and time and perspective. Like I've been there. So that's just why I enjoy paying it forward. Right. So Dan, Dan roll modeled away and now I'm just trying to be my own version of Dan.

B (56:33)

I feel like every, every call I'm on, like it always goes to Dan. Like he's like a true like legend in the space and like the adoption of, of the help first principle of like sounds like he still helped, he still mentored. He was just like, I'm not going to take your money, blah blah, blah.

A (56:49)

He, he is the embodiment of go giver help, all that whole concept.

B (56:54)

The last thing I'll plug is there's this notion of graduation. I drink the Kool Aid or I don't think you guys like that anymore. I believe very passionately about EOS in the system and a part of the system is this idea of graduating. And I never actually believed in that. I think we did pretty good implementing eos and when we had an implementer it was incredible. The value that an outside perspective, even if you're great at, at eos, the, the value of having an outside perspective come in and say the things that might not being said and open up the, the room and, and create the, the foundation of trust, credibility. Like it, it never ends. And so, you know, there was this, we just, we never stopped. Like, you know, we could have graduated but at the end of the day like there's just so much value and I just couldn't imagine like, yeah, we're good at this, but I just love the, the outside perspective of somebody that, you know, isn't in the day to day and can see things that the team that's so ingrained can't see.

A (57:54)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean to each their own. I, I, my longest client held on for almost nine years. I think it was like eight years and three quarters. I was kicking them out for six years or trying my best to and, but that was a preference. They had a similar mindset as what you're suggesting. And then I have other, you know, then I have other clients with really strong, confident integrators and we're supposed to call it out and I would assume most of us do. Right. And I look for, I've got about six things I look for and when they're there, it's like my alarm bells are going off. And we need to suggest that this is an option for them. If they have a strong integrator who's confident, comfortable, if they've rolled EOS out, it's going well, top to bottom, left to right. It's like they should at least be aware that that's an option.

B (58:44)

Right.

A (58:45)

Because it is an investment to work with an implementer. So, yeah, just to each his own. What's funny, Ryan, quickly, is for the first time ever, we, Amber and I am. She's basically a business partner these days. She's like my integrator. She and I had another implementer facilitate our quarterly meeting a couple weeks ago and I feel so stupid because I've never been on that side of the table ever. Oh, man, it was nerve wracking and it was like he'd probe and it's like, like, I don't want to show you our skin. Like we're supposed to know what we're doing over here. So it gave me great empathy for the clients I've worked with. It was such an amazing experience. So I'm a big believer in coaches. I've had coaches, you know, for 20 plus years in different areas, but I've never had someone else run one of my meetings, either with my own companies or for 10 years as an EOS implementer. I've always run them. So that was, man, that was a little bit of humble pie here and a little bit of nervousness there and a little bit of like, oh, God, are we going to air this out in front of this guy? You know so well, he did a phenomenal job and we got so much more out of that meeting than any other quarterly I think I've ever had in my practice.

B (60:20)

Are you comfortable sharing? Who'd you pick?

A (60:22)

Christian Landers.

B (60:24)

Okay. All right.

A (60:26)

He's awesome. He's here in Dallas and he's a phenomenal human being.

B (60:30)

Okay, last, last question. So someone just listened to this. They're like, this is the most amazing thing ever. I need to get a hold of Sean. How can they find you?

A (60:37)

Thanks. LinkedIn's probably the best place. Or you can go to eosworldwide.com, find an implementer, search for my name there.

B (60:44)

Sean, thanks so much for coming. This was super. This was super fun. We'll definitely stay in touch and I'll let you know when it comes out, but we'll appreciate you, appreciate you coming out, man.

A (60:54)

Thanks for having me. This is fun. Appreciate it.