← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E31 | Simple Negotiating: Win More By Fighting Less with Jonathan B. Smith
01:13:06
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- [00:00]
A
We actually go into a negotiation without having necessarily a desired outcome. What we go into the negotiation hunting black swans. So the idea is people are desperate to be heard. Most people are not listened to. So the whole thing is about listening.
- [00:23]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. So how does this like one of the things that I'd love to get into. There's a lot of kind of topics to cover today, but one of those is you have significant traction on this book. It hasn't launched yet. Like there's a lot of people that put books out into the universe and they, they write about topics that they're passionate about that they're interested in and then they go to market with it and it's crickets. And then they've gotta like, push, push, push. And so they're doing everything from like Vistage talks to keynotes to whatever they can get in to try and like push the sale of their books. Your book hasn't even launched yet and like you already have Traction that people could like dream of. How.
- [01:17]
A
First and foremost, I'm a business strategist.
- [01:19]
B
Yeah.
- [01:19]
A
So I showed up and there was a strategy behind it. The book. So Chris Voss, the author of Never Split the Difference and former lead hostage negotiator for the FBI is a client of mine, an EOS client of mine and his books Never Split the difference sold over 5 million copies. So I was speaking to Mark O', Donnell, who's the visionary at EOS and was my client and then my business partner and now I advise him. And he said there's a book called Traction that's sort of the EOS first book that Geno Wickman wrote. And there's another book called what the Heck is eos? And what the Heck is Eos is like the primer version of Traction. And it sells one for one on a go forward basis with Traction. So I'm like, aha. I have a strategy. That strategy is write an equivalent book which we're calling which is called Fight Less, Win More. It's the missing manual for Never Split the Difference. And the idea is I'm not a hostage negotiator. What I am is a practitioner of the skills and an entrepreneur who learned the skills and earned my way onto the Black Swan negotiation team.
- [02:24]
B
Interesting. So when you look at it, so what the heck is eos. It's taking the concepts and it's kind of boiling it down into something that a brand new teammate. So one of the things that we do, for instance, is we give out a copy of what the Heck is eos? To all of our new teammates instead of of traction, which may go out to like, leadership team levels. And it kind of breaks it or boils it down. How do you see this book comparing to Chris's?
- [02:56]
A
This book doesn't talk about negotiating in the jungles of the Philippines like Chris was doing or being in Iraq or Colombia. There's no hostage negotiation in this book. This book is all about, you're going to go to the hotel and you're going to want to get an upgrade. You want to get an extra shot of espresso at Starbucks. You just want to get past the security guard. So think more things that just average people will be able to use the skills with. Because what we've seen is people are like, great. Chris can use the skills he trained at Quantico. He trained for 25 years. He's the best in the world at what he does. This book is designed to try to make the skills accessible. Just like what the Heck is eos? Is designed to say, hey, you don't want to read the whole manual about eos. Here's the things that are most important to think about. And then what's really interesting with the book is I've heard that Never split the difference is required reading for any salesperson at Amazon. Well, if Never split the difference is required reading, Fight less, win more should become required reading also. So there's an adjacent adjacency here that you know, like when you look on Amazon, you'll. Well, I'm sure Amazon will figure out how to sell them as a bundle.
- [04:13]
B
Yeah. And you talk about, like, the applications and making it accessible. Like, what does that. What does that start with? I think earlier you were talking about this idea of, like, influencing, like, influencing the outcomes. Like where. When you're thinking about entering some sort of negotiation, where does that all start?
- [04:34]
A
Well, let's define negotiation first. Our version of negotiation isn't like you're at the car dealership, going back and forth and back and forth, bargaining with the car dealership. Our version of negotiation is you're walking into a conversation. You want or need something. So you're with your kids, you're trying to get through security at the airport, you're negotiating a deal with your business partner. Anytime I want or I need is in your head. You're in a negotiation. And our negotiation, we hope that everyone ends up with a better outcome using the skills that we have. So it starts with, what is a negotiation? Anytime I want or I need is in your head, it's a negotiation. And then they're everywhere. Like negotiations are everywhere if you just become aware of the fact that they're there. And then what you need to do is you need to remove yourself as a threat. So the idea is like, if you're in a negotiation, you are a threat. You can tell your daughter that she can't go out past 10 o' clock and she wants to go out with her friends until 11:30. So the idea is then we have skills, specific skills about how to enter into those types of conversations. We call it tactical empathy. The basis of the negotiation we do is called tactical empathy. It's basically you have an intuition about what's going on in the other person's head and then you're going to verbalize that intuition and not be afraid that you're going to get it wrong. Because if you get it wrong, the urge to correct is irresistible. So that's where it all starts.
- [06:07]
B
Interesting. Is the threat, because it's all about, like influencing it in your direction first. Is that, is that why when you're entering a negotiation, like you're always perceived, not you as in Jonathan, but going into the conversation like now, you are the threat to whatever the outcome is. Is it because it's an outcome that's like different than what they want or how do you think about that?
- [06:32]
A
Let's take a simple example. I'm at the Ritz Carlton in Pentagon City. I occasionally get lucky in stay at hotels like that. And the hotel is like full. The lobby's full of people who can't get rooms because it's for whatever reason. There was a lot of people checking out and a lot of people checking in. And it was clear that there was something wrong in the flow. So I went to the front desk and I said, oh, it looks like you're arm wrestling with that computer. So I used the label, it looks like. And all of a sudden I wasn't another person entitled person telling him that I need a room now and don't you know who I am? So I acknowledged him as a human and I said, I'm not fancy. I would take the room that the handicap room is often available. It's often the last room that's available unless someone needs it. I said, I'd be happy if you could get me the handicap room. He said, Well, I can do that. While all my friends were waiting for their room, I just took the handicap room on the second floor without a view, and I was there for one night. It didn't matter. Huh. So otherwise, if I went in there and started yelling at the guy and saying, don't you know who I am? I'm Marriott titanium, blah, blah, blah, like, yeah, you and everybody else. Thanks, pal.
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B
Is every conversation a negotiation?
- [07:57]
A
Anytime I want or I need is in your head. It is, yeah.
- [08:00]
B
And then is that where it starts? Like, are you looking at like the desired outcome first before you start kind of pulling back into some of the skills? Or are you launching into the skills? Because, you know, kind of once you get to that destination, it'll be the desired kind of end game.
- [08:17]
A
Chris Group is called the Black Swan group, and it's called the Black Swan Group because if we go into a negotiation, don't be so certain what you want that you wouldn't have accept something better when offered to you. So we actually go into a negotiation without having necessarily a desired outcome? Yeah, we go into the negotiation hunting black swans. So the idea is people are desperate to be heard. Most people are not listened to. And if you just listen to them. For example, like the guy with the computer that he's arm wrestling, and I'm looking at him and he's like furiously tapping and doesn't want to look up at his head, and all of a sudden I make a joke about arm wrestling and he's like, oh, he's treating me like a human. So another one. I was at Thanksgiving dinner the other night and we live in New York City, so in New York City, no one has a kitchen. Well, not no one, but I don't have a kitchen big enough to have guests. So we're at the dinner and there's this really nice waiter. And I generally always ask someone their name. So I asked him his name in a very nice tone. I said, oh, what's your name? Because he's going to be serving us, so might as well treat him like a human. Olay is his name and he's doing a great job. And at some point I ask him where he's from and he like, bright smile. He's got the whole restaurant that he's supposed to be taking care of. Well, he spends five minutes with us playing a game with us, guessing where he's from. So everyone at the table had to guess where he was from. And he was having the greatest time because instead of him serving us, we were actually listening to Him. Yeah. So the whole thing is about listening.
- [09:58]
B
And that was like the biggest kind of. And we don't, by the way, for people that are listening to this. We did a whole podcast about a year ago on listening and the five types and how critical those things were. And are, are you going in? And you talked about this concept of like, not, not setting goals. And one of the angles that. Or the example was this notion of like, because you may not know like how good the deal. Like if you set it, then it's like, this is what I'm trying to achieve and this is the only thing I can achieve. When you, when you take that out of the equation, does it also like, lessen the pressure on like the skills that you have to use and the things that you have to do and the tactics and it becomes more natural, or is it just like. No, we do this because we think we can get more.
- [10:50]
A
I just think it's a better way to live your life. Like a lot less stress listening to other people. You know, I said, like I told you earlier on the phone, you can use these good skills for good or for evil. I choose to only use these skills for good and that we encourage everyone who learns these skills to use them for good. And the idea is we had a better outcome at the restaurant because he felt heard. What does that mean? I don't know, it's subjective. But he was smiling. He made sure we were taken care of. He gave us an extra dessert as a thank you. I wasn't trying to get the extra dessert. It was just. But it didn't hurt, right?
- [11:30]
B
Yeah. Interesting. And like, does this like one of the places. I'd love to know because you and I see life through a very similar lens and like this idea. We were talking a little bit about rules earlier today and like what rules apply and what rules don't. Things like that. This is going to be a two parter. Number one. Do you find true joy and happiness out of these tactics? You talked about using these powers for good and these tactics and these tools and these things that you do. Yes, they influence certain behaviors and certain outcomes.
- [12:08]
A
But.
- [12:09]
B
But it's not a zero sum game that we're talking about. Like the waiter, the example that you just gave, he didn't lose anything. If anything, he gained. He gained relationships. He felt heard, he felt respected. He had a gain and so did you. And where does that come from for you?
- [12:29]
A
I've just gamified the process at this point. I'm just like, how many times can I have A better outcome in my life. That's why we call the book fight less, win more. Yeah. I mean, we didn't have to. Like I told you the other day, fight less, win more. I was trying to get into a business club in the city, and I wasn't on the list. And I was speaking to the security guard, and she's like, well, you're not on the list. And I said to her, do I look like a criminal? She's like, no, no, you don't look like a criminal. And by the time we were done, she let me up. Fellow who I was meeting, they put me at his favorite table. Twenty minutes later, he showed up, and I already had a coffee and used the restroom.
- [13:14]
B
He was like, what are you doing here? This is my table. You're just sitting at it. Yeah, exactly.
- [13:17]
A
And then he's like, how'd you get in here? What did you do to let them let you in the club?
- [13:24]
B
He said, I know people.
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A
I wasn't even knowing people. I heard people. I listened to people.
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B
That's pretty powerful because it's not about you.
- [13:32]
A
So there's a different. So this is an interesting concept. Sympathy is about you. Empathy is about them. So we say tactical empathy. So let's talk about sympathy. Sympathy is if you walked in with a cold. You said, oh, I got a cold, didn't sleep well last night, got sniffles, have a terrible headache. And I said to you, oh, I had a cold last week, and it was terrible. You know those people who tell you that it's like the worst when I was sick, can you believe how bad it was for me? As opposed to me saying, wow, it sounds like you could really use some extra rest. Can I get you chicken noodle soup? Whatever. Something where you feel heard, so you feel heard in that case. And in the other case, you're just like, I don't want to talk to that person. So very different between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is I. Empathy is them.
- [14:27]
B
Is this a mindset? Like, is this. Because this whole concept of anything is possible, to be able to use the tools and kind of put yourself out there, you have to intrinsically believe that it's already achievable. Like, if you didn't believe that you could have gotten into the club or that this amazing waiter would have taken care of you guys, then going down that path would have been hard. So it's like, is this something that is a mindset for you first and foremost, and then the tools come in and support the ultimate kind of outcomes?
- [15:05]
A
So I built A proven process for how to do this. It's in the book.
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B
Yeah, shocker.
- [15:12]
A
I was about to say. Yeah, so eos proven process for how this works. And one of the things is mindset. And the issue with mindset is this is a trained skill. It's a learnable skill, but it requires lots of discipline. And then you have to accept the fact that you are going to get triggered. You accept the fact that you're going to fall out of using the skills effectively and be kind to yourself. Because the only way you can get good at the skills is through low stakes practice. So you need to actually be willing to do the low stakes practice and get it wrong because it's gonna feel awkward at first. But mindset's really, really important. So I practice all the time, every day, as if it's a game. So it's like going to the gym. Like, you know, I'm ready to go. You know, I have my, my vox or whatever the equivalent is for negotiation is pretty damn high.
- [16:12]
B
Did you. So you talked about kind of training this. Is this a, is this a. An existing mindset in which you go to the gym and you train? And that continues to kind of validate the internal hypothesis that anything is achievable or outcomes can be influenced or kind of all of these things make sense, or was this something that was kind of already intrinsic and you, like, growing up where you, like, you already had that deep belief and now you're just, now you're just training that muscle and working it out.
- [16:42]
A
I didn't even know this was an option, that these skills were an option. I think having been an athlete, knowing how to train for something was helpful. Like that process is helpful. But I pretty much every year decide to go learn a new skill. But for the last 10 years, I've been working on these skills and just getting better every single day. Day. Like we say, you have a choice today. I can get better, I can stay the same, or I can get worse. And I choose to get better. Not that I get better every day, but I choose to try and get better at least. And Chris and I, we laugh. We were laughing the other day because people keep coming up to us and saying, I use the skills. And it worked. So the key is that you have to try the skills and see that they'll work. So it gives you confidence so you can actually try the next skill. And. And it's like learning a new language. So the best way to learn the skills is through immersion.
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B
Interesting.
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A
So it's really and truly A new language. It's a new, different way of putting language together.
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B
Where, where do you find some of these or like for, for people that are listening, that want to start kind of validating it. Let's say they read this and they're like, this is it. You know, I understand. Where do these low stake environments exist? Like where, where can they find them? Is this something where they're logging into a system and they're, they're talking to AI or doing something like that? Or is this a, you know, they went to the coffee shop and they just made that person's day.
- [18:17]
A
You just have to spend the time to see the opportunities. And then I learned it by having a journal. So we have a logbook built into the book at the back of the book and then we're going to have a field guide that goes with the book so you can actually field the skills. Because it's very hard to field the skills. People don't know exactly how to do that. But what I did was every single day for like six months I'd be like, okay, here was the opportunity, here's what happened, here's the skill I used, here's the outcome I had. Was it positive or negative? And then every week I would review it with, with a couple of Black Swan coaches. So for me that's how I did it. And then it just became a habit.
- [19:02]
B
I think I talked to you about this, about the Black Swan. So my, a good friend of mine was in the process of selling his company and, and we had all, obviously we'd all read, never split the difference and had tried to, he was trying to use mirroring and all these other things. And he was like, hey, I think I'm going to invest. I think he spent maybe 20, 25,000 for some very individualized kind of training for him over a couple months. But the return on that investment was through the roof because the multiple in which he sold his company for was through the roof. These skills work, I guess is kind of the punch to that statement is it works. What is the like, are you setting daily goals, weekly goals? Are you like today I'm going to use this two or three times? Or have you been doing it so long now that it's just a matter of like, situations arise, you do it and then you go home at the end of the day and you jot down a journal like, this is what happened.
- [20:07]
A
All right, so we say there's like three levels, Shu, Ha and Re. That's a Japanese methodology used in Aikido martial Art. So first you have to follow the master. Exactly. That's Shu. Ha is you start to adjust slightly and then RE is you're in your subconscious just doing it. So I operate in RE at this point. So in general, I'm not really thinking about it. So your conscious process is 40 bits per second. Your subconscious processes 20 million bits per second. So if you can get it into your subconscious and have it available to you, it's incredibly powerful. But Chris and I had a big negotiation the other day, and I gave him a briefing of the negotiation. So I literally did a dossier on the person we were meeting with. What's their worldview? How do we listen to them in level five, what's their point of view in the world? Regardless of whether we agree with it or not, we have to understand it and verbalize it. Yeah. And then the second thing is I created something with. We call it a negotiation one sheet. I built a AI tool that's a Google Chrome plugin that you can actually put the negotiation into that tool and it will spit out their point of view as well as spit out the negotiation one sheet and. And basically suggest how you might approach the negotiation. So if it's high stakes, we are training. Generally, if I'm with Chris, Chris is always the lead. Like in a negotiation, they call it a NOC negotiation operations center. There's a lead, there's a coach, and then there's a series of intelligence analysts behind them, like feeding them information. The information is fed from the coach. So Chris and I are negotiating, just like with an accountability chart. Chris will be the lead generally, I will be the coach. And then I actually used AI in that case to be the intel analyst and have it. And I teased Chris when he showed up that he didn't tell me if he read the briefing, but I know he did because he's an FBI hostage negotiator.
- [22:19]
B
And if I could just plug the. And I'm not sure when you're going to market with this software, so maybe this is a bit premature, but we use. I was in a negotiation with someone and I had told you about it, and you plug some information into this database and it did its thing and you gave me a report back. The thing that surprised me most was it took me, and I feel like I'm a good read on people and I'm not sure, Like, I have very, very few superpowers, but one of them is like, I feel like I can connect with people pretty quick. It took me about two, two and a half months to understand the things that your system figured out in, like, I don't know how long it takes. Was it five minutes, 15?
- [23:00]
A
Well, the prompting took longer than the system to output. And then I'm like, there's no deal here, dude. You don't have proof of life.
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B
It's actually exactly what you said. And guess what happens? I mean, you already know this, but it fell apart. And it only took like a week or two to fall apart after that. But you knew that before I even knew that. So interesting. How do you, when you think about like the dossiers and some of the research that goes into this, like, are you like, shape shifting your worldviews and your other things based upon the research that you're doing, or is this. Actually, I'll just leave it with that. Like, how are you using this as you go into a negotiation to like, get to whatever the outcome is?
- [23:51]
A
So level five listening says that I need to listen for their point of view. Imagine if I know their point of view walking into the conversation as if I'm in the NOC with the FBI, except I created it myself with AI and I know what to listen for. When I'm listening, I'm not going, oh, that's insignificant. I'm going like, oh, they mentioned that. I need to acknowledge it. Just understanding what's important to them and then verbalizing that to them. So remember, tactical empathy is verbalizing your intuition. Well, that intuition doesn't just have to be intuition. It can be like, I walked in and I understood their worldview. And then their worldview is getting, getting. It's basically being reinforced by what they're saying. I'm like, oh, I know what framework to look at for them. And then I can acknowledge them for that framework or for that point of view.
- [24:52]
B
Is that, Is that like, when you talk about the acknowledgment, like, is that acknowledgement, Is that getting them not further disarm, but is that taking you further out as a threat? Or are you using that acknowledgment to like, progress towards wherever you're going at that point?
- [25:09]
A
I just want them to feel heard. So. And the acknowledgment is through a label. As an example. We found that these are the most effective ways label is it sounds like it seems like, it looks like it feels like something blah, blank, whatever you're feeling. If you want to make it a little more personalized, you sound like you feel like you look like you seem like. And if you know the person really well, I might look at you. And I say you are stressed instead of saying, it seems like you're stressed. So that is one of the skills in the book. So we have a core four set of skills that if sort of like in eos, where we have foundational tools, the core four are the foundational tools that are in this operating system for negotiation.
- [26:02]
B
And just like a quick sidetrack. It's amazing how much EOS kind of applies to so many different kind of frameworks. I was at a breakfast this morning with some friends, and they've started to implement EOS into their personal lives. I've heard, like, experiences like that so often. You talk about the four frameworks. So we've covered one. What are the other three?
- [26:25]
A
Other three? Yeah, that's a mirror. I'm just messing with you now.
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B
This is what. Do you remember our first phone call? The first phone call we ever had? And I think, like, I came in hot and I was like, I don't know what I did, but I said a lot of things very, very quick. And you did the same. Like, you started mirroring me. Like, almost immediately. You're like, settle down. This isn't like we're just getting to know each other or something like that. And then you started mirroring.
- [26:50]
A
Okay, so that was a mirror. That's number two. So the idea is we would drop a label, then use dynamic silence. So I'm messing with you with dynamic silence.
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B
It's.
- [27:03]
A
Yeah, you won't play along, but.
- [27:05]
B
Well, I. Well, I tried.
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A
I tried.
- [27:07]
B
I felt like that was like two seconds. That was good. All right. What was the third one? Sorry? Before the dynamic silence.
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A
So label, then dynamic silence, mirror, then dynamic silence. So dynamic silence is number three.
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B
Got it.
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A
And the issue is, like, if you drop a label, you have to let it sink in. Sometimes you have to wait a long time for it to sink in because you're waiting for that person to respond to that label.
- [27:33]
B
Interesting. What is the power of the silence? Is that a. Like, is that changing the dynamics of the conversation? Is that like putting the ball in their court?
- [27:43]
A
Like putting the ball in their court? Giving them an opportunity to think about how they want to respond to what you just said. Most people just continue to talk and talk through the clothes, and then the last thing is summary. So summary is so far. You told me so the idea is you told me not what I heard. You told me, and if you didn't, don't agree with what I said. You told me the urge to correct is irresistible. So you will tell me if I got it wrong. Yeah. So far you've told me in an ideal summary is like nine points. So it means I was really listening to you. And then at the end of the summary, I might say, as a result, blah, blah, blah. Here's sort of like the PS at the end of the summary. And as I say the nine points in the summary, my goal is for you to say, that's right. Like, that's right. Means you heard me. I feel heard. And then we're in a better position to make a deal.
- [28:49]
B
Is that like, we used to talk about these things mostly in conversion rate optimization, but these things of micro commitments. So every time we could get somebody to, like, take a. A simple action, we could, like, we could get them further to where we wanted them to go. Is that like, when you get somebody to say, like, this is what I heard. And I do want to come back to that, by the way, because I am curious.
- [29:14]
A
That's not what you heard. This is what I said.
- [29:17]
B
Oh, all right. So let's come back to that. Because if. If they. I do want to get into, if they do have corrections on what you're saying and, like, how you handle that, but once you get to the very end, obviously that doesn't mean that the paperwork's not done, the deal's not done. But what is it, like, what is it about that sequence that moves everything forward at that point?
- [29:47]
A
Because you understand their point of view. They feel heard. It's not like they're like, did they hear me or did they not hear me? I verbalized what you just told me. Yeah. And I want to make an important point. We are not talking about yes, momentum. We don't believe in yes momentum. Yes, momentum is like being at the F and I dealership. You know, you need to get a warranty. What would you do if your transmission failed? How would you afford that? Would it be a bad idea for you to have a. A warranty like that? People can smell intent.
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B
Interesting.
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A
So this is not the intent to manipulate people into. Yes, Momentum. This is just me sitting here and putting and doing the work so that you feel heard. Because I actually listen to you in a way that you almost never get listened to. So it changes the dynamics of the situation.
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B
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent? Or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes?
- [31:01]
A
Yeah.
- [31:02]
B
I was, too, at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2020, 5. I started talent harbor and the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized business businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A r b o r.com Harry, let's get your next sales superstar hired. Are you saying this stuff intentionally to kind of correct your own notes or are you saying it to like not what you heard but like obviously you're not saying this is what I heard. Cause that's not the point of that specific tactic. If they do correct you, are you changing it at that point?
- [32:33]
A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, so you're not debating in this. It's not like, oh, that's not what I said. And you're like, well that's what I heard you say. No, you're like, oh, okay, that's, that's the actual data point.
- [32:42]
A
That's the data point. Because you at least know where they're coming from. Because wouldn't you rather know what their position is as opposed to trying to manipulate them into your position at that point? Just, you just want them to, you just want to hear what they have to say. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to do that deal. But at least you know who's in the way of you getting a deal, what they're thinking about the deal, what their important deal points are. They're going to tell you all those things. Otherwise we're guessing. Because everyone's always hiding, they're always hiding things.
- [33:15]
B
Does that get you like once you have this information, does this kind of set up your first go, no go point? Are you like, if you heard the things in which like you realize are very important to them, you're not going to be able to get across? Is that kind of the proof of life you're talking about or are These like data points or data points. And like now it's ours to figure out how we're going to, how we're.
- [33:37]
A
Going to move depends on the deal. The idea there is. It's, it's not a, it's, it's not a tragedy to not do a deal. It's a tragedy to spend a long time not working through a deal and not getting the deal. Yeah. Wouldn't you have rather had me tell you up front than spending? I'm sort of busting your chop.
- [34:01]
B
No, I'm going to come back to that because this is a, this is a great point.
- [34:04]
A
Like if you use a summary there and then you realize that person. There were deal points that just weren't going to work for you. Wouldn't you rather have known in the first hour versus you now have spent four months working on a deal?
- [34:19]
B
Yeah. And so I'll put a caveat that there's been a few deals. That way we're not acknowledging that there was just one specifically on that deal though, or on one of the deals we got to a place. So I'm all about efficiency. For me, I want to get as fast as humanly possible to that go, no go. And if it's a no go, that's fine. At least we're moving forward because at that point we're not moving forward over here. But we can put those resources into another area. I was very intentional about the strategies that we set up for a couple of the deals that we reviewed. And so it was like the first, the first two weeks was get to know and get the necessary documents. The next two to four weeks is like analyze, assess those documents, come up with questions. And then there was a go, no go right before loi. And the LOI was to get to a place in which we could figure out like, we've already done diligence, we've already come up with kind of a general evaluation and we're ready to at least have a conversation about those things. If I would have read your stuff or had your information prior, I feel like I could have saved probably somewhere between six to eight weeks being able to get what's most important. Because valuation, of course, is important, but there's different ways to get to the same valuation. And if you can't, you can find out pretty much up front if any of those variety of paths are going to be viable. And you figured that out in 15 minutes and a quick 45 minute.
- [35:57]
A
I looked at their LinkedIn profile and what they emphasized.
- [36:01]
B
Yeah.
- [36:02]
A
And I was like, this is what they want. And you're like, took me four months to figure that out. That's.
- [36:08]
B
That's exactly right. There's a. There's a few that I think will boomerang in 2026. So we'll. One, I'm going to bring you in a little. Little sooner on. On the next conversations.
- [36:17]
A
Might not be such a bad idea. My fees are going up in 2026.
- [36:24]
B
I thought we'd just do this for podcasts and book signings. Let's go into eos. So let's start with how you got into eos, because you are not to do this live and on the show, but you are unlike many EOS implementers out there. Not just how you've been able to navigate and the things that you know, but the skill sets that you bring go far beyond eos. How did you get into it? And then we're going to kind of go into some of these specifics.
- [37:01]
A
I was in EO Detroit at the time. There was some guy bouncing around the bar, and I was like, who's that guy with all that energy? It was Gino Notebook had sold his business with his dad, was trying to figure out what was next, and just before anything happened with him. And so I'm like, we need to go talk to that guy. So I went and met Gino and I did an EOS session with him, which was not called an EOS session at the time. He had something called Virtual CEO.
- [37:32]
B
Oh, so there we go.
- [37:34]
A
We probably. We paid Gino fifteen hundred dollars a day at the time, so I think probably his lowest fee ever. I think we were his second client. And from there, I had a conversation with Gino at I think Starbucks in Michigan somewhere. And he talked about Don Tinny, like the future Don Tinney. I need a guy. This guy was his integrator. And from there, I actually ended up the business I was in with my brother. We broke up because we didn't have the same vision. So there's four partners, and four partners is always hard.
- [38:13]
B
Was that Geno that helped? Like, was it bringing EOs or virtual CEO? Was it bringing that system into the business where everybody's like, oh, we're misaligned on some of these things.
- [38:22]
A
Yes. So we're in, I think page 52 and 53 in traction. Yeah, there's a copy in the back here.
- [38:29]
B
This is crazy. I know. We came into the studio DJ over there. Our amazing technology guy. Yeah, they've got traction. You pulled it open?
- [38:38]
A
Yeah. So we're in the book and then what happened is I ended up using it to build an Inc. 500 business. Sold $100 million worth of product in the Middle east using search engine optimization. And my brother ended up building an Internet retail business. So separate businesses Both ended up Inc. 500.
- [38:58]
B
Did he implement Eos's?
- [39:00]
A
He did too. He stuck with Gino more so than I did originally. He was the CIO for Gino for a long time, and now he's an implementer. Huh.
- [39:10]
B
Where is he based out of?
- [39:11]
A
Michigan.
- [39:12]
B
Oh, Michigan. Got it, got it, got it. Is that where you. Is that where you were originally?
- [39:16]
A
I grew up in New Jersey, but I went to Michigan for like 10 years. And then, then the auto crisis happened in 2007, and we were operating. I was operating in the Middle east, mostly out of Abu Dhabi. And it was just hard to get from Michigan to Abu Dhabi. It was much easier to go from JFK to Alpha Uniform Hotel, Abu Dhabi.
- [39:36]
B
So then you guys moved out here?
- [39:38]
A
I moved here. Tyler stayed.
- [39:40]
B
When did you move down to dc?
- [39:43]
A
When I got done with being in the Middle East.
- [39:45]
B
Got it.
- [39:46]
A
So I lived in D.C. for a couple years. That's where I met Chris.
- [39:49]
B
So how does this. Because this is really interesting as well. I've heard this story. We didn't talk about this on your first one, but I think this speaks to how you see life and how you're able to kind of navigate. Like, how did you. You're brand new to dc, probably don't know many people. Zero people. I didn't want to say that. I figured maybe you like preceded a network or something. So you don't have many people that you know. And the first person you stumble upon is a best selling author.
- [40:20]
A
He wasn't a bestselling author at that time either. He had no book.
- [40:23]
B
Oh, how long ago Was this?
- [40:25]
A
Like 2012.
- [40:27]
B
You're way ahead of the. You keep discovering all these. All these people, right.
- [40:32]
A
My assistant says I'm the kingmaker.
- [40:35]
B
I was. Are you talking about Brittany? Yeah. All right, I'm gonna text her after this. That's hilarious. So you just stumble into this random gentleman.
- [40:44]
A
Well, so what happened is, think about this. I was in the uae, United Arab Emirates, working for Sheikh Mohammed, who was the ruler of at the time. He was the crown prince of the uae. So I was like, oh, there's pictures on the building. It kind of looks like him. Well, it was him when he was 19 years old. Like, you know, we see him on TV here, but he was on the building. So we're working with Him. We have a picture with him. So if we were in trouble, it's like our PBA card. Who's that? Sheikh Mohammed. Who's that? Oh, it's you. Is there any problem? No problem. Yeah, so like we, I don't know, it was really odd. So I worked in uae, Qatar, Saudi Arabia. And we were work in Qatar we worked for the Amir.
- [41:31]
B
Yeah.
- [41:32]
A
In Saudi we worked for the Crown Prince. And so, and then I came back to, to D.C. and I couldn't get a meeting with the, with the Vistage chair for coffee. Talk about humbling.
- [41:48]
B
Yeah. Okay, so what'd you do when you could get the meeting?
- [41:53]
A
240 coffees, no clients.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah.
- [41:58]
A
Sheer will. How do we win sheer will? Selection begins daily assessment is ongoing. So I went to, I used to go to the Tower Club, which is like a business club in D.C. that everyone knows you can go to breakfast and meet other people, like minded business people. And so I went to the Tower Club one morning and there's a guy named Sid and Sid's like, chris, Jonathan, you two should talk. And we look at each other like, okay, any particular reason, Sid? So Chris still laughs about that. And I sit down with Chris and Chris is like, yeah, I have this deal in Abu Dhabi and I can't get paid on it. I'm like, oh, I know those guys. You want me to call them for you? So in D.C. there's lots of retired FBI agents. Like you have no idea who they were, what they did. So I'm helping the negotiator negotiate a deal in Abu Dhabi to get paid. How does that happen?
- [42:55]
B
That's incredible. But this isn't, you know, I would say like, oh, how does this happen? But this has happened so many times kind of in your, in your life where you're just, you're in the room and one of the things that like I think is really important. So when I moved back to Seattle after naval war college, I was like, oh, I'm gonna get in front of all these like, like networking groups and things like that. So I went to everything from BNI to like, you name it. But you were in the right room.
- [43:27]
A
Not always. I had 240 coffees and no business.
- [43:30]
B
Were all those coffees in the Tower Club?
- [43:33]
A
Well, the coffee was free there. I was starting to run out of money.
- [43:38]
B
Oh my. 240 coffees. All right, well then it was just your will at that point.
- [43:46]
A
We have this thing in the US it's called Four2One. Four warm calls should lead to two 90 minute meetings which should lead to one focus day, which is a new client. So I was like, okay, they're lying to me because I'm having all these warm calls with no proof of life, just in case you wanted to know. And so I decided it was 240 coffees to get to four warm calls to get to two 90 minute meetings to get to one focus day.
- [44:15]
B
What would you do differently now based upon the things that you know now, the lessons you've learned. Like if you were getting started from scratch, EOS implementer, business consultant, like is there a way to set yourself up better or is it like, no, if you're moving into a new town with zero network, you just have coffee with everybody.
- [44:34]
A
I think it was a pretty good strategy, actually.
- [44:35]
B
I think it was a great strategy.
- [44:38]
A
One of the problems is I didn't have the dope. I didn't have data on previous engagement. So when I went to Abu Dhabi, I built, I taught myself search engine optimization. In 1999, I was on the stage with Eric Schmidt and, and Sheryl Sandberg at Google in front of 400 engineers because I figured out how to use the system.
- [45:00]
B
That's wild.
- [45:01]
A
I built this long tail niche strategy for this whisper wave business that we had. So. And it was all sheer will. Again, that's just been my experience. And it got me to Sheikh Mohammed in Abu Dhabi and literally my dad and I were, I got invited to speak in Dubai or we got invited to speak in Dubai and we flipped an American Express card and we said who's paying like $5,000 to go? And we ended up getting the business as a result.
- [45:32]
B
Did you want to move to D.C.
- [45:34]
A
There was something different to do.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah, I mean I just went through something, something similar. I just moved from Seattle to L. A And it like it's hard. Like it's hard like re establishing a network and building that network. And it's almost like the 240 coffees that you have. Like when you're going into a location where there's not many allies yet, like it's going to take that many reps.
- [45:58]
A
At the tower Club, at the Tower. But then, you know, the amazing thing was I just spent enough time there. And so you probably know Craig Cummings from Moonshot Capital. So Craig adopted me into his group of lieutenant colonels.
- [46:13]
B
Wow.
- [46:14]
A
So I would hang out with those guys. So they let me hang out with them. I was with Joseph Kopser and a crew of those guys and we would be out at night and General Dempsey would be calling one of the guys who was his XO and General Dempsey was the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time. So I went from Abu Dhabi to D.C. and still had the same kind of access. It just took me a little while to figure it out.
- [46:42]
B
I don't know. I guess my thing is, I think there's a lot of impatience in life nowadays. Whether you're a business consultant or you're launching a new business. It's all about need it now, now, now and have to do all these things like 240 coffees. And it took a while, but I think a lot of these things do. And people underestimate the amount of effort that it takes to build a network for you. You spent all of that time and then you had like three or four pretty big cois that then entered your universe and a year later it exploded. I don't know, it just sounds like it sounds like a good strategy even in retrospect.
- [47:28]
A
It's worked for me. The book took us five years. We threw in the garbage the first two times because we couldn't have Never split the difference Part two. There's never going to be a better book on negotiation than ever split the difference in that format that they wrote. It's like having how to win friends and influence people. It's going to be a perennial evergreen book. Chris and Tal did a fantastic job. So took us the third time we finally got this book. So we're long term greedy. At the end of the day, I'm long term greedy, not short term greedy. And that's why the book's going to. It's taken off now.
- [48:05]
B
Like this is wild. So coming from the industry, we had a book, nothing like this. We had a game and we had licenses and some other stuff. The stuff that your book is already doing and it's not even launched yet is pretty incredible. So how. Okay, get it. Spent a long time making sure it was the right product.
- [48:25]
A
It has to be five star. That was one of our requirements. If it's not five star, so don't give a review if you don't think it's five star.
- [48:33]
B
How crappy would that be? The first review I gave was like, yeah, four star, great book. No joke. It starts with the. I think that's a good kind of use case of everything starts with the product. So you spent a long time making sure that this was the right product. There were a couple that came out and you were thinking through it and you were like, no, these are garbage. This can't be a Never split the difference too. You finally landed on this. So now you have a great product after that. What? There's a lot of. There's a lot of people out there that want a deal with. I won't name names, but we'll just say a UK distribution deal and some of these.
- [49:07]
A
Penguin Random House. It's fine.
- [49:09]
B
Okay. I don't know how NDA you are Penguin Random House.
- [49:12]
A
There'll be a press release out about it and it's already on their website.
- [49:16]
B
Got it. That's huge. Like, huge.
- [49:19]
A
All right. So like. But you have to kind of reel this back and say we were trying to figure out do we use a traditional publisher that do we self publish or do we use a hybrid publishing model? So I spent six months trying to figure out how that worked. And to do a traditional publishing model required us to have a literary agent. Then we had to write a. I forget what it's called, like a book brief or something like that. And then it has to get bought by someone and then they give us an advance. And the advance, without going into all the details, it's almost like I'm like, oh, it's like the printing press, it's like from the 18th century, how that business model works. So we decided, no, we're not going to go do that and we're not going to self publish, which would be like, put it on Amazon and be responsible for everything. We found after like 10 interviews with hybrid publishers, we found Naron at Amplify Publishing. And we're like, this is the way we want to do it. So. So it's effectively we own the book and they are our third party logistics publisher. They make sure it gets printed, they made sure that it gets copyrighted, they make sure it's set on the right paper. They're the book experts. We're not the book experts. So we do a deal with Naron and Amplify. We get what Daniel Pink writes. One of the. One of the blurbs. Jay Shetty, Robert Cialdini, you wrote one of them. You're actually on the back of the book. I don't know if you've seen it.
- [50:54]
B
Am I really? No, I haven't seen it yet. This is. All right, I'll take a look after.
- [50:58]
A
You'Re on the back of the book. I think. I think it was Hunt the Killer that they were excited about.
- [51:02]
B
That's awesome. It's definitely not that we're still early days on the new one.
- [51:08]
A
That's also. We do this deal, we start going to market with it. Chris is like, oh, by the way, I think I had a PR firm when I did never split the difference. I'm like, thanks for telling me. He told me that like a month ago. So we now hired a PR firm to help on the PR side. And two weeks ago I get a call from the integrator at Black Swan, Ken, and he's like, we need to talk. I'm like, oh, am I in trouble with Chris again? And he's like, penguin Random House wants to buy the book in the UK and they're willing to pay you a substantial advance. Pay us a substantial advance. Would you be interested? So in two days we put a deal together with Penguin Random House instead of two years. And it's only in the UK and in they call the Commonwealth. So I think that's South Africa, uk, New Zealand, maybe Bahamas and Australia, something like that.
- [52:06]
B
So you got to. It's not even all like, you got more. You can go get over there.
- [52:10]
A
Oh, yeah. But this was sort of the anchor deal. So we did an anchor deal over in the uk, which then we can get the rights sold in Brazil and China and Japan and Korea or wherever there are people that do that. We are not experts at that. This is a delegate and elevate situation. So we weren't going to be able to really do a great job overseas anyway. So Nigel's our publisher at Penguin Random House, so he was very, very generous in terms of how he felt about the book. He's like, I need to own this book. He had done never split the difference, so he knew the category. But we still own the rights at the moment in the States and the economics are substantially better to do it on a hybrid publishing model. So we de risk the whole platform, we de risk the product by putting the money up ourselves. And we shall see. Look for the Black Swan. We're hunting black swans at this point. If someone comes and tries and buys it in the States.
- [53:09]
B
Interesting. I mean, at this point you're just playing with house money, which is great because you got the UK thing. That's incredible. What's one piece of advice that you would have? Because a lot of the audience that we get with this is like EOS implementers and business consultants and generally like this is kind of the strategy. Like you find a niche, something that you can become a subject matter expert. You go write a book. You talked about this hybrid model. Like someone that's coming up. What would be kind of your biggest.
- [53:39]
A
Piece of advice for them about specifically? I'm just not quite sure where you're.
- [53:43]
B
Going with that well past the quality. So let's just assume that the quality's.
- [53:47]
A
Already there, except for your four star.
- [53:52]
B
Assuming that the quality of the content and the ideas and the theories and everything is already there. Like, what's your one big, biggest piece of advice for them trying to get traction on this type of book?
- [54:05]
A
Well, the thing I love about the book is that the total addressable market is so big. So first of all, the TAM is massive. Any ambitious human in the world who wants to get better at negotiation. Ta da. Like, that's awesome. Okay. I love that because there's a lot of niche books where it's like, oh, the total addressable market for that niche is 1000 books. Great. If you want to write a book for 1,000 people and you want to be the expert at that, that's fine. That's not what I personally wanted to do. So, first of all, I like the business model that we could sell this book and make a huge impact. I think that if 1% of the world used these skills, we would have more peace in the world. Yeah. So that's really why I'm excited about it. And then the other thing is we're playing the long game again. Long term. Greedy realizing that on a Sunday, you and I are in a podcast having a conversation. Right.
- [55:07]
B
A rainy Sunday in New York.
- [55:09]
A
In New York. So what does it take to win? Sheer will. And then you have to be focused. There's so many people with these shiny, shiny stuff. Shiny objects chasing shiny stuff. Like, I don't chase shiny stuff. I happen to be really good at EOS. Expert EOS implementer. Having done 1500 sessions and 150 clients and 50 exits, I can then use this skill in a room that makes a complete moat from an EOS standpoint. And that's exciting to me. So Mark o' Donnell would generally say, do you find it fascinating and interesting? Pick a topic that you find fascinating and interesting. Don't just pick a topic because you think you're gonna make money at it.
- [55:56]
B
And when you did this, was this, like, were you thinking more about kind of the personal credibility and the personal brand and being able to, like, drive business? Or was the goal for the cause? There are I don't know how many books, but millions of books. There's so many books out there that Amazon chose books first because of how many SKUs, but not all get a hit. Was that kind of your intent out of the gate was like, personal brand? Sure. Credibility, yeah. Like, this will be great, but like, let's write something that can change the world.
- [56:31]
A
Yeah. This book was written to change the world. This book was not written. I have a personal brand book. It sold a thousand copies.
- [56:38]
B
I know, I put it back there. It's sitting all.
- [56:41]
A
It's okay. I could stay back there. I've told Naran this is going to be one of the eight books in 2026 that's going to sell over a million copies. And that is my laser focused goal. Laser focused goal.
- [56:56]
B
One last thing on the hybrid model and amplify. So when you think about how all these pieces come together, how do you think about that, that strategy? So for instance, like we're on a podcast right now. So you've got podcasts, you've got speaking. Like, what are kind of all of the things that you're pulling together to like help promote this book?
- [57:15]
A
I have a LinkedIn learning coming.
- [57:17]
B
There we go.
- [57:17]
A
Right? I mean, that's pretty awesome. Yeah, LinkedIn will probably help us. You know, I'm supposed to be on one of their podcasts, so there's certainly that channel. Chris said, oh, LinkedIn's like NSA. They have the details on everybody. So that's interesting. But you know, to have them as friends, they've been very good friends with us. I'm going to be the keynote speaker at the Black Swan summit that we're having and going to go do speaking all over. So it's like podcast speaking, media, pr, book signing, coaching, teaching, and ultimately what I want to end up being. Tony Robbins has a deal with Paul Tudor Jones where he has a piece of Kerry in the funds, in Paul's funds and they've been together for 25 years or something. That's the deal. I want, I want to be with someone like that, with a team like that and be their negotiator.
- [58:19]
B
Does this mean you're not going to start picking up my phone calls in like what, February? February next year you're going to be all over the place.
- [58:27]
A
It's going to be a busy year, but I'll still take your calls. Just five star.
- [58:35]
B
You carry select clients on the EOS side. Like what's, what's kind of your. How do all of these things come together? Like what's, what's your 10 year target from a personal standpoint?
- [58:45]
A
Well, Chris and I had a really interesting conversation about EOs. He's like, you're the only one on the Black Swan team who has a laboratory to go use the skills in an EOS session with someone for eight hours once a quarter. So I Just look for really interesting clients where I can make a huge impact. So it tends to be something interesting like I'm on the board of the Spy Museum, so I did that. As a result of doing EOS there, I have clients who've raised half a billion dollars from major family offices doing really interesting things. That tends to be venture capital firms who I come and get to be on their teams. It just tends to be. Or do you have a business that I want to learn about? So I have a client who's in the CTV business and I wanted to understand CTV and they're venture backed. They have, they have ambitions to have a unicorn exit. So that's interesting.
- [59:51]
B
Does EOS kind of give you a place to practice some of your skills, hone and learn about industries? Is EOS always kind of going to be there? Or if you sell 5 million copies next year, are you just going to buy that private island and fly the PJ back and forth?
- [60:12]
A
I think what will happen is Gino still does EOS. He does like 50 sessions a year with the clients he wants. So I think it will be part of what I do and I'll do it very selectively with who I end up wanting to do it with. The issue with EOS is it requires me to physically be there. So the reason I back my practice off is if I'm going to have to travel, I don't want to be in a situation where I'm like, hey, Ryan, sorry, I'm not going to be there. I'm in Monaco right now at the.
- [60:49]
B
F1 race in a suite and I.
- [60:50]
A
Can'T take care of you as my client. So I don't want to do that. So I'm trying to figure out what the right balance is.
- [60:58]
B
Got it, got it, got it. When you look back, what do you want your legacy to be?
- [61:06]
A
You know, I always say, like every client I start with, I say, you know what my goal is, that we're friends for life and I make an impact on you. It changes your life. So I had a client the other day who I was talking to and he said, you saved my family and you saved my business. Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
- [61:22]
B
I was talking to one of your clients not too long ago who is now an EOS implementer and he said the same, that you saved his family. I don't think people understand like what the power of eos. And like I've talked about this and having life changing of not just being able to like run and manage a business, but being able to Think clearer and salvage relationships.
- [61:45]
A
But, yeah, you have to be willing to enter the danger. So these skills. The interesting thing with these skills is I'm very comfortable having a sensitive conversation. There's nothing that could be said that's going to scare me at this point. I've been through it all. 1500 sessions. I've seen most of it. I mean, I had a session where someone at the job site caught their arm. We had to tourniquet the guy's arm.
- [62:14]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [62:15]
A
They brought him to the hospital and we continued the session. You've.
- [62:23]
B
What's the. I haven't heard. I've heard some of your stories. The.
- [62:27]
A
What was it?
- [62:27]
B
The neighbors?
- [62:28]
A
Oh, they were knocking on the door when they weren't knocking on the door. Because the family was screaming at each other. Yeah. And I pretended they were knocking on the door so they would stop screaming.
- [62:37]
B
Are you always able to, like, help them? It's not. It's not off the ledge. But, like, sometimes it just has to be a parting of the ways or generally speaking, can you help get people aligned? More often than not.
- [62:52]
A
So the really interesting Walt Brown and I have this saying. Sometimes what EOS is designed is not you end up graduating EOs. Sometimes it's just like you split with that bad partnership. I was in a session one day and I was in the room and this woman had to take over because her dad got sick and they were having trouble with the leadership team and the CEO was trying to assert himself. And I said, you know, they could have paid a lot less money for an implementer, but they hired me because I'm a hostage negotiator and this feels like a hostage situation.
- [63:40]
B
I said that.
- [63:43]
A
And what happened? He didn't end up at the next session, Fight less, win more. But I felt like it was my duty to have that hard conversation.
- [63:56]
B
What are some of the. Like when you think about you in a session room and some of the skills, or all of the skills, like, when do those skills become applicable? Is this about, like, extracting information from people that might be withholding and making sure that all of the problems, all the issues are in the middle of the table for everybody to see is this. You like using active listening. Which skills really show up for you in the session room?
- [64:25]
A
Situation drives tactics. So I can't tell you until we end up in the room what skills I'm going to need. Now, Sam Garfunkel, who, you know, he'll say, Jonathan said 17 words the whole day and executed. And the whole thing got executed so my goal is to just keep it down the lane and get them what they need and then deliver the messaging when I need to deliver it. So one of the stories in the book is about a session where we were checking in and someone was unwilling to check in. I'm like, oh, best personal, don't have any. Best professional, don't have any. I'm like, okay, working, not working. So instead of, like, making it about him in the session, we checked in all around the room. And then I said, so I have bad news. So that's an accusations audit. I have bad news. We can't move forward unless we deal with whatever the issue is that you're having, that you're not comfortable sharing something as simple as, my daughter scored a soccer goal this weekend. So I asked him again if he was willing to share. He said, I don't trust someone on the team. I said, okay, who it is? Who is it? We name whoever we're talking about. He said, I'm not comfortable doing that. I said, it doesn't seem like you want to be on this team. He says, I don't. Stands up, walks out and leaves.
- [65:50]
B
That was it.
- [65:51]
A
That was it.
- [65:54]
B
And then you just.
- [65:55]
A
We continued the day. I asked the team and the team was like, no, it's okay. We'll continue the day. And then whatever their problems were, they resolved them outside of the meeting and the business is better for it.
- [66:09]
B
Interesting.
- [66:10]
A
Like you'd think. A lot of earlier implementers think, like, I have to solve it for them. Yeah, I'm just like pulling out my flashlight and going, the mole doesn't like the light over there. And I got some bleach also. And, you know, I'm just shining a light on it. I don't want to break the team, but I didn't know that was going to happen, but it worked out.
- [66:35]
B
What's your philosophy on this whole graduation thing, from an EOS standpoint?
- [66:43]
A
I never ask. People graduate when they're ready to graduate.
- [66:49]
B
The thing that I like, having a third party in the room that does not have the same amount of vested interest and is not sitting, is more sitting at 10,000ft or can come in and add outside perspective. I don't know. I think there's value in that forever. Sure, there's an EOS framework, but if you find the right EOS implementer, to me, it goes much further beyond eos. Those three examples you just gave me, somebody cutting their arm, shining the light on someone that couldn't do a check in, and then everybody yelling at Each other. That's not EOS pure. You're not sitting like, that's not EOS principles. Those are perspectives and unique things that in my opinion, go far beyond a framework.
- [67:38]
A
Yeah. I say 70% of making EOS work is getting team health. Right? Yeah. So I played football with Eric Mangini, who was the coach of the jets at one point. I told Eric, when I talked to him one day, I'm like, I coach teams too. I just coach, you know, entrepreneurial teams and my job is to help them create a high performance team. So, you know, Mark O' Donnell and I will say 15% of EOS is the content and 85% is the facilitation.
- [68:10]
B
Yeah.
- [68:11]
A
So I have to still get the 15%. Right. So that if someone else were to come in, they could still see that I used the foundational tools, et cetera, and the leadership team and training manual. But beyond that, it's, you know, we're in a firefight and then we got to fight our way out, figure out how to win.
- [68:32]
B
What's your philosophy on, like, not necessarily EOS pure, but, like, it has to fit this template in this mold versus, like, you come in, you coach. It's about team health and you make sure that, like, the things are in the right places, I guess. Like, do you believe in there are ways to customize different aspects or components, or do you think, like, fundamentally.
- [69:00]
A
You.
- [69:00]
B
Gotta follow each one? Am I going to get you in the trouble?
- [69:04]
A
No, I'm not going to get into trouble. I tell them directly. I do EOS freestyle. Yeah, right. I run special operations. If I were in the military, I would be in Special Operations Command. I would not be in the regular military. And so my job is to get people what they want from their business. And I will do my best to use the tools in the toolbox. And if those are not the right tools, we will use some other tool to execute. So sometimes it's I'm using Black Swan tools and sometimes I'm using Business Model Canvas and sometimes I'm using some other tool. Sometimes the client needs to use Raci or something because they want to run Raci, or sometimes we're running Agile and it's okay. Like, at the end of the day, I have a client, a Syrian client in the city. He said, I don't care what it's called. Put cash money in my pocket. That's what I care about. That's actually what your clients care about.
- [69:58]
B
Let's do this one. Someone just listened to the second part of this. Which I think really kind of balanced the first. Maybe it was like the fight less, win more versus versus the other book. But it's this idea of, like, in the first time or in our first episode, we went deep into, like, the different components and types of listening, what that really meant. And here I feel like we got more into, like, the tactics and the things that you actually, actually use to fight less and win more. If someone just listened to this podcast, the first one and the second one, they're like, I need Jonathan in my life right now. Number one, what are you looking for in clients? And then number two, obviously, how do they get ahold of you?
- [70:42]
A
Yeah, I'm just looking for clients who are looking to get better and are committed to being, you know, we say appreciative, respectful, frustrated. Want help.
- [70:52]
B
Right.
- [70:53]
A
With an interesting business where they can teach me something about business and I can teach them something about how to get what they want from their business. So. And I want only clients that are easy, lucrative, and fun. Elf. Not hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating.
- [71:08]
B
Wait, say that again. Say that again. Elf. What was it?
- [71:11]
A
Elf is easy, lucrative, and fun.
- [71:13]
B
What was the other one?
- [71:14]
A
Hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. That comes from Joe Polish. Half.
- [71:19]
B
Half. Got it.
- [71:20]
A
And we will say, literally, I want an elf client, and if I have an elf client, we'll end up being friends for life.
- [71:27]
B
What if they're not lucrative yet? Would you make exceptions if they're on their way to lucrative, but they're not quite lucrative yet?
- [71:34]
A
I mean, I'm always open to have a conversation.
- [71:37]
B
It's good. It's good. I'll call you after this.
- [71:40]
A
Five star.
- [71:43]
B
And are you focused at this point on New York or will New York. Okay, so you're like, they could send a pj. And you're like, you know what?
- [71:52]
A
I might take the PJ if I get to fly it.
- [71:55]
B
That's right. We didn't even get into any of that. You are a pilot. Okay, last question. How do they get a hold of you?
- [72:04]
A
Yeah. So personal branding website. Stay curious. Jbs. Juliet Bravo, Sierra. That's. My parents named me John Smith, so I go by JBS instead of John Smith, so staycurious. JBS.com.
- [72:20]
B
Love it. Love it. All right, so the biggest thing, especially from this one, is you've got a new book coming out. Fight less, win more. January 13th. 13th. January 13th. All right, everybody pick it up, and I'm gonna get my copy signed right now. Thank you so much. Sincerely. It is a Sunday. We're not supposed to talk about dates. Evidently, that's like a no no on podcasts. Cause then it like, who cares?
- [72:43]
A
That's.
- [72:43]
B
That's what I say. But you just.
- [72:44]
A
There are no rules. We eat off menu.
- [72:47]
B
Eat off menu. But that's like you taking time on a Sunday to come into a studio. And our fascinating, amazing editor back there. But thank you so much for taking time.
- [72:59]
A
Appreciate it.