← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E32 | From Overloaded to Aligned: Become A Better Visionary with Mark Winters
01:00:18
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- [00:00]
Mark
When I see a visionary that's just dead set on having a rock, a lot of times it's not about guilt. Something's missing in their leadership team. And so, you know, if they truly have rock stars in every seat on that leadership team, guilt goes away. It wasn't guilt in the first place. It was. I mean, there's a little bit of that. I'm not, I'm not totally dismissing that, but it's more. The more powerful dynamic going on. There is, and I gotta make sure that gets done, and I can still do it better than anybody.
- [00:36]
Ryan Hogan
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. Mark one. I just wanted to say I'm incredibly thankful that you decided to come on the show. This was like, this was like 48 hours notice, I think.
- [01:00]
Mark
Do you want to know why it worked like that?
- [01:02]
Ryan Hogan
Go ahead.
- [01:03]
Mark
So. So I have this weird resistance to scheduling things that are, that are short. And so I do time blocking, all that, but normally I'm working in like a full day or a half day chunk, but to do like an hour or something on a day where I don't really have anything else unless I block it just for podcasts is like, it just. I don't like doing that and so I resist it. Right. And so in this case, I knew I was going to be recording a bunch of stuff and so I had some things scheduled and whatever. And so, you know, we, we hit and it's like, okay, boom. In fact, what happened was I was on a call with somebody about something else and it's kind of like, hey, let's record an episode. And so we just hopped on and did one and I'm like, oh, that was fun. That was great. And so just a little bit more spontaneous, a little bit more. Let's just do it. Is more fun for me than something that I have scheduled for, you know, a month out, Something like that.
- [01:56]
Ryan Hogan
I hear you on that so much. And like, what prompted that? So you and I connected a few months ago on LinkedIn. Then we, we swapped the email and it was like, you know, in the future, like, let's figure this out. And I think I got, I got added to your list. And then I've been following you on your email newsletter and I saw you're releasing a book called Visionary. And I was like, oh, well, what a Perfect opportunity to circle back and see if, if you want to do this. So.
- [02:24]
Mark
Yeah, I'm glad you did. Glad you did.
- [02:26]
Ryan Hogan
I'll start with, with a couple things here and this is, this is probably more, more commentary than, than anything. But the, the first is there's two things that changed my life. Number one was Vistage. So my first company bankrupted. It was called Run for your lives and Run for your lives grew very, very quick and then it just fell off the face of the earth and it was painful and it imploded and it was embarrassing and it was all those things. And so I made a promise to myself. I was still active duty at the time. So I've been in the Navy 23 years, 15 years active, eight years in the reserves. And I made a promise. I said if I ever am lucky enough to find product market fit again, I'm going to find a group of people that have been there and done that. And when I launched Hunt to killer and it took off, first thing I did was join Vistage. And then of all people, Dan Wallace came marching through our group, gave a presentation and so we self implemented for a few years and then we fully implemented. I share that with you. One, because we haven't done a pre call and you probably don't have much context because there's like three different things that you do that you've been a part of and that has had a monumental impact. I sold Hunt a killer last year. We grew in scale 6, fastest growing company in the country. And it was all because of Eos and vistage. You were a vistage chair, like where, how many things are you, are you doing? Like, like what does this journey look like and how did you, how did you get into these things?
- [03:59]
Mark
Yeah, so, so maybe we start with Vistage. So what happened there is. I was at a stage in my life where I was, I was kind of. I had a whole series of my own businesses that I had either started myself or I bought that had either worked out great or I had had to shut down. So we had any, any and all across all different kinds of industries. Right. And so I was at a point where I was like, you know, I've done a lot of operating, I wonder about kind of the advisory side of things. And I'm a longtime EO Dallas member and served on the board for multiple terms here in Dallas and got a tremendous amount of value out of that organization. And that's where I learned about peer groups. That's where I learned. I mean just to your point, that, hey, when I can get a group of people around the table that have been there, done that, that have seen some things, done some things that I haven't done yet, that's going to save me time and pain, frankly, because I can hopefully get there faster and maybe not step in quite as many holes along the way. So I had a real appreciation for that. I was, you know, I was in a forum in EO and then I was also, what they call the forum. I was forum chair of my forum. And then I was also the moderator or I'm sorry, I was the moderator for my forum. I was the chair for the chapter for forums. I was helping people get, you know, in a forum and helping the forums have their resources. Anyway, fast forward to this point in time when I'm kind of making a transition from operator to advis. And I learned about Vistage. I mean I'd heard of it actually I'd heard of it as tech, the executive committee, right? And actually a friend of mine, his dad was one of the very first tech people. He was, he was like in the very first group. And so I had some perspective on it and so I talked to them and it was, it was a bit different than the EO structure because you have these outside speakers that come in and you have a professional leader for the group, a professional chair for the group. So I, I said, hey, let's do this. And so I started four different groups in Dallas Fort Worth and had a lot of fun. You know, I, I was already pretty well established in the, the entrepreneurial community in, in Dallas Fort Worth, so I knew a lot of people. So building the groups wasn't, wasn't too bad to try to get people to sign up and come and all that, but it was, it was pretty powerful and we had really good people and interesting things, great speakers that came through. So, you know, I never had Dan Love Dan Wallace, but we had lots of interesting things. And one day there was a program called Fridays with Vistage that was webinar based. And I see this one that's, I think it was called Get a Grip. And there was this guy named Mike Peyton. And so I'm like, okay, something about the language looked interesting to me. And so I went on it and I watched Mike walk through what I came to know as the entrepreneurial operating system. Now for a little more context, Ryan, I had in my Vistage groups been asked to help some of those members implement a system as I had done in my own companies. Now I didn't do it in all of my companies. But eventually I figured out that my companies worked way better if I did have a system than they did if I did not have a system. And so I had done that. And so my first reaction when I got approached with this request was, yeah, I don't really want to do that. That was really hard work. And I kind of like, you know, this advisory stuff that I'm doing. So why, why would I want to do that? And so it's, oh, come on, just, just, just know, help us get started. And so eventually they, one of them twisted my arm enough to do it, and so I spent some time with them and I, I helped them get started and I found that I enjoyed it. So it was, it was actually really interesting. I loved how they responded and I loved the fact that when we were done, they were the ones that had to go do the work. And, you know, that that actually wasn't, wasn't as heavy lifting for me. So that multiplied a little bit. But then I watched Mike's webinar and I'm interested enough in EOS that I actually take a flight to Detroit and go sit down in a room with Gino and a few other people that were also interested enough to kind of take a step. And I fell in love with it. So I began to believe that it was a better and simpler system than the one I had used. Gino and I hit it off real quick. I like to say we became fast friends. We had a lot of history in common. EO as part of that. And so I came back and began to talk to these people where I was implementing a different system and said, hey, I'm not going to teach that stuff anymore. I'm going to teach this thing called eos. And so if you don't have interest, no worries. But if you do, here's kind of what it looks like. And Ryan, it just sort of took off. So another crazy fact is at that point in time, which is about 13 years ago, there were only a couple of dozen EOS implementers on the planet. So there weren't very many. And when I came back to Dallas, there was nobody in the state of Texas. In fact, hardly anybody in Texas had even heard of eos. And in fact, the next closest implementer probably would have been like, Des Moines, Iowa. So, so that's how, you know, far spread out we were.
- [09:47]
Ryan Hogan
You had it all to yourself?
- [09:48]
Mark
Well, yeah, but, but I also had it all to myself. And meaning, Meaning. Meaning, you know, nobody, nobody knew this new language that I was talking or had heard about. Right. So, you know, we had a heavy concentration at that point in Detroit around Geno, obviously in Minneapolis. My kid had done a lot up there. Chicago, you had a little, little bit on the East Coast. That's where obviously Dan was. So, you know, you, you, you kind of had had sort of a scattering around and so here I come. You know, bring the flag back to Texas and. And off we go.
- [10:22]
Ryan Hogan
That's. That's incredible.
- [10:24]
Mark
What.
- [10:25]
Ryan Hogan
Just out of curiosity, not, not to put you on the spot with, with the competition between Vistage and eo. I just joined EO la. I moved down to LA in January and I transferred my Visage membership down here and then spent about maybe eight or nine months and then just joined eo. What for? For you? I've heard of people going from Vistage to yo. I have. I've very rarely heard people going from EO to vistage. And what, like when you look at the pros, cons, what do you see there?
- [10:55]
Mark
So I do not think of them as competitive. In fact, in my groups, most of the members were in both. Yeah. So now that's open to interpretation by everybody. But a fundamental difference is that how the group is led. So, you know, either a rotating member of the group for the forum piece versus a trained professional, if you will, in the VISTAGE chair model, external expert content. And Vistage comes in. In the group meeting with some big events maybe scattered throughout the year, where in the EO model, it's primarily through the group events. So, so, so the, the monthly event or sometimes there's more than one of those that the chapter will organize for everyone in the chapter to come together, you know, and then that's sort of augmented by every once in a while an expert speaker coming into an individual forum group. So there's a difference there. I feel like EO is really about that community and that larger network. Now. Vistage, I think, has made progress on that front and probably gotten better, but you know, I think they're different and I think there's benefits to both. And again, I have a lot of friends that at one point or another have been members of both and gotten a lot, a lot out of it. Now you're in la, so I think Visage is still headquartered down in San Diego.
- [12:39]
Ryan Hogan
San Diego?
- [12:40]
Mark
Yep. And how many EO chapters are there around LA?
- [12:45]
Ryan Hogan
We've got three. We've got Orange County, LA Proper and then LA Valley.
- [12:49]
Mark
Yeah. So I definitely know people in Orange county and I actually probably know people in the, in the other ones as well, if we kind of start talking some names for a little bit, but they're great, man. I. You know, EO gives you access to things that vistage does not, and vistage gives you access to things that EO does not in a different way. So, you know, if you got the bandwidth and depending on what stage of your journey you're at and how. How much learning you're trying to take in and how many people you're trying to meet, there's room for both. But otherwise, I think you just kind of have to talk about whatever's most important to you and see which one matches up best.
- [13:26]
Ryan Hogan
Love that. Love that. And that was more of a selfish question because I was curious. I'm in both today, but I'm just getting started in EO and more so for me, because I'm so new to this area, it's like trying to build a network and meet people as fast humanly possible.
- [13:41]
Mark
Actually hearing that, that may be a great argument for being in both for a while. Right. And then. And then see. See which one's meeting your needs better. They're both still. They're both still free, right?
- [13:51]
Ryan Hogan
Yeah. Wait a minute. They're supposed to be free. I'm going to call Sam Reese.
- [13:58]
Mark
They changed that, I guess.
- [13:59]
Ryan Hogan
What's going on? Okay, so you, you also wrote Before Visionary Rocket Fuel, one of the most, like, enlightening books. And I can only imagine, like, the light bulb went off in my head and I was like, oh, it all makes sen. I'm not crazy. Like, I have all these ideas and, and like, but nobody's, like, taking them and running with them and nothing's getting done. What, like, when did you start realizing that. That there was this difference and that, like, there needed to be a book on this to help articulate, like, you're very normal and this is what's happening.
- [14:37]
Mark
Yeah. So, first of all, full credit goes to Gino Wickman. So. So Gino, he coined the term visionary and integrator as a, you know, as a two different roles. And, and, you know, he's the one that originally started talking about that structure and that content. When I came along, he had the idea of writing a book about it. And so he, he, he sort of threw out the idea for having somebody do that with him. And I threw my hat in the ring. And then he basically took me through a very rare process to decide if I was the right person to write the book with. And, you know, fortunately, I somehow passed that process and off we went. And then basically, for you Know, a year or longer. We basically sort of cohabitated each other's brains as we began to unpack that model and that content and think about how to better teach it more broadly. You know, he had had a very specific experience in his, in his professional career with his family business that he stepped into. And I had had, you know, not knowing the words, not, not calling them visionary and integrator, I had actually structured one of my businesses in that exact same fashion. And, and so I had a, I had a real appreciation for how well it worked. And so it was just like, it just clicked for me, okay, here's, here's language to use for that. And then as he and I began to collaborate here, you know, a structure emerged for how to make sure that we take. Take those two, which are very different. Right. A lot of friction that's naturally there, and put a structure around them to, to blend that friction to something that's powerful and positive. And that's really what the, the five rules that we talk about in Rocket Fuel are all about.
- [16:27]
Ryan Hogan
Got it. And just a quick side note, so I was, I was at the EOS conference last year, and through a friend of a friend of a network, somehow I think it was the Thursday night. I wound up at a restaurant with like eight people and Gino, Gino's wife and Gino's wife's sister were there. And that's my first, like, kind of live experience with him. So when you were chuckling there about like, like the, the gauntlet that he put you through, we were, we were sitting at a table, but the tables weren't like, perfectly aligned. And so if you, if you've ever seen like, Men in Black, where he, he grabs the table and just squeaks all the way across the floor. Floor. Very embarrassing. That was Gino at the restaurant rearranging all the tables in real time. Brilliance, brilliance. Are there still, like, common misconceptions that you see when people think about the visionary role or how it's supposed to. How the visionary and integrator are supposed to come together effectively?
- [17:24]
Mark
Yeah. So, I mean, there's probably lots of things. So let me just throw out a couple of things and then let's follow whatever you're thinking about or interested in. So, you know, one of the things I see is some people have a reluctance to, or an aversion to the term visionary, so they don't want to refer to themselves using that word. They think it's somehow like braggadocious or, you know, self aggrandizing. You Know, pick, pick some term that goes with that, that they're not, not happy with. And, and that's really not the way that we think about it at all. We think about it as a very natural and necessary function for an entrepreneurial company where, you know, somebody better be looking down the road, somebody better be thinking about new stuff at a high enough velocity that we've got good things to choose from. You know, somebody better be paying attention to these big external relationships that we have. Somebody better be thinking outside the box, wrestling the big interesting puzzles that we have to, to wrestle along the way. And so, so that's really where it comes from. It's not like, hey, you know, you're better or you're special any more than anybody else is special. It's just a real practical term. So, you know, I encourage people to, if they've got hesitance around that, to kind of give, give it a chance, you know, the integrator term. It's funny when, when Gino and I first wrote the book, you know, one of our, our wishes was that people would begin to use these terms as real terms to refer to real roles or seats, as we call them in an accountability chart, but real positions in a business. And it was fascinating to Watch as on LinkedIn, you'd see people change their byline to integrator or visionary, right? And start to do that. And then you'd see people posting for jobs, looking for an integrator. And so that happened. Right now we've seen recruiting firms spring up that specialize in finding integrators, and you've got a whole cottage industry of fractional integrators and all these other things that have kind of popped up around what we're trying to do with that duo in that structure. So that's been interesting to watch. And so I think have really. They've taken to the integrator term more completely and more easily than the visionary term, maybe. And part of that too is the integrator community or population, they never had a thing to call themselves. So they, you know, one of the comments we'd get a lot from them is, ah, now I know what I am and I'm not alone. So we have a workshop or something. They look around and here's a room full of people like them. And they didn't know that there was anybody else out there like them. So that's pretty cool school, right? And so you kind of see why that happened where visionaries, at least they've been calling themselves CEO or president or founder or, you know, whatever. So they've at least had a term and an identity, but there's still an isolation issue with, with them. And, and so they need to know that they're not alone too. And that's where, you know, peer groups like we've been discussing or other communities can, I think, really, really help with that. So on the theme of misconception, Ryan, the other one that I would, I would throw out is, you know, I've, I've preached a lot that visionaries need to let the integrators take their seat at the table with them. And in turn the visionaries need to kind of let go of certain things and let the integrator do their thing. And so that's all good and normal. And I've talked about that because that's not always a natural thing and a lot of times there's resistance to that. So that's why I've hammered that message so hard. But lately what I've watched is, and I don't think there's bad intent here, but it's happened where integrators have sort of taken too much ground and they've sort of stiff armed their visionary a little bit and said, no, you can't come in here, no, you can't participate in that, no, I've got to do this. And they just sort of have taken so much that it leaves the visionary kind of sitting out there off to the side twiddling their thumbs. And that's not the intent, that's not the design. We absolutely want the visionaries to be fully engaged, but it just looks different, their engagement looks different. They're still in, you know, a level 10 meeting, a quarterly meeting, you know, an annual meeting. They're still engaged with the leadership team like that. They're still absolutely, you know, same paging with their, with their integrator and you know, they have, you know, their, whatever is designed in the accountability chart for their seat. That's the stuff they're working on. And then they're helping and supporting the rest of the leaders on the team as they can to execute on the different priorities, the rocks or annual goals that have been set by the leadership team to focus on for a period of time. So that's what we want and it's a collaboration. And so to clear up any misconception there, integrators, please, please, please make sure that you are engaging your visionary and you're pulling them in and you're making sure that you are both happy with where that, that line of of demarcation is in terms of who owns what and that you're absolutely staying in sync and staying on the same page. You should both feel really good about. About how those roles get defined.
- [23:04]
Ryan Hogan
And there's this one, there's this philosophy of like, tiebreaker goes to the integrator. And so, like, once everybody speaks their piece, the integrator kind of makes that final decision. Is that something that.
- [23:15]
Mark
Yeah, so let's talk about that. So. So that's one of our five rules, is that the integrator is the tiebreaker. And so in practice, what I see is that almost never comes into play. 1 out of 1 out of 5, 1 out of 10, maybe less times that in the leadership teams that I see operate, which are a bunch and a lot, to two different mathematical terms, a bunch and a lot. You know, it just, most of the time they kind of get there and, you know, the integrator is not the decision maker for everything, right. So we want as many decisions as we can to be owned by certain departmental leadership seats on the leadership team. Right? So I'd like the head of sales and marketing to make that call. I'd like the head of finance to make that call. I'd like the head of ops to make this call. Right? So it's. It's where those things cut across. And so it's typically, typically a decision that's multifunctional or somehow it's just above the functions of the rest of the leadership team. And that's the thing where whoever the decision maker is should really be getting input and perspectives from whoever around the table has something valuable to offer them in that process so that they make the best decision, and then they're accountable for making the best decision if we get stuck. So, you know, sales and marketing is saying turn left, and you know, finance is saying turn right. And they hash it out and they can't work it out. That's when we want the integrator to be able to come in and hear all sides within the context of the vision and the big picture and the greater good of what we're trying to do, which they are totally in sync with their visionary on, because they've same page, so they know how they're seeing things. And so with that context about where we're going and the more granular context about all the plans, all the stuff we have in process right now, they hear the perspectives of the folks that are involved with this and that we're unable to make a decision, and they're able to go okay, here we go. Here's the call so that we don't get stuck and stay stuck. Because if we fail to decide we are stuck and that's probably the most dangerous place we can be is just sitting there not making a call. You know, either let's do it or let's don't do it or let's turn this way or let's turn that way. But if we just sit there and process, process, process, process forever, odds are that same kind of behavior is showing up in other places too. And as a, as a team, as a, as a business, we're just going to get, get stuck there.
- [25:44]
Ryan Hogan
1. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And Margaret Dixon, do you know, do you know Margaret out of Boulder, Colorado? So she, she was our implementer. We self implemented from like probably 5 to 10 million and then maybe 15. And then Margaret took us the rest of the way and we would talk about this and maybe it was just me with gremlins and just like making up stuff that like, would never happen. The thing that I always thought about was like, well, how, how would the integrator, how would the integrator make the decision that I would have made? Like, what if, what if they make a, what if they make the wrong decision? Like, what do you say to, to something like that?
- [26:22]
Mark
Let's talk about it. So one, a leadership team, all members included, should get good at spotting things that should kick back to the visionary integrator, same page. So if the visionary and, or the integrator sense, hey, we're not in alignment here. Timeout, let's kick that one to our same page meeting. We'll need to talk more about that. Then we'll bring it back to the leadership team. Okay. Likewise, if, you know, the head of Ops sits there and watches the visionary and integrator start going at it like that, they should call it out and go, it sounds like you two are not on the same page. Maybe you should kick that back to your same page meeting. And, and a lot of times that's the right answer. So, so, so let's take, take that into consideration then. Assuming that, assuming we're coming at it from the same page and assuming that we are holding our integrator accountable or any other decision maker accountable for making the best decisions, here's what you're going to see. They're not going to get them all, right? Because none of us do. Right? And so, you know, I like to refer to a construct that Susan Scott created called a decision tree. Have you heard of that? Okay. So for the listeners, you know, at the top you've got the leaves which are kind of all the more minor decisions. Holding up the leaves, you've got branches which are a little more meaty. Then you've got the trunk and then you've got the roots. Right. And so at the top with the leaves, you know, we want to identify any decision kind of where it falls along this range of the tree. And for the leaves, man, just do it. You don't even need to tell me about it. Just handle it, Just make it happen. And then for the branches, I want you to do it, but report back and tell me what you did. So that way I can kind of stay in the loop for the trunk stuff, I want you to announce your intent before you take action. So, hey, here's what I'm going to do. And then I'm as the manager listening to that and if I hear something crazy, I can jump in and intervene. But if I don't hear anything crazy, I'm kind of seeing how your brain's working. It sounds good. I'm just going to let you go ahead and do it and you do it. And then there's the root things, which are more. We've got to discuss that, we've got to talk about that. So don't do anything until we've had a chance to get deep into it. So if you'll take the time to identify, okay, this particular decision falls at this point on the tree and follow those kind of rules. There are very few root things and so the root things we're going to talk about, so you're going to really increase your probability of avoiding a bad decision, avoiding some kind of mistake. And then the other things, the stakes just aren't as high. So leaf level, branch level decisions, they're going to get some right, they're going to get some wrong. When they miss some, we talk about it. That's great content for our same page meetings to go back and go, okay, on that one, how do you, how do you feel that one worked out? Well, not very good. Okay, so what, what are the lessons there? How can we learn from that? And the visionary gets to coach them and bring them along, so hopefully we can make sure that that kind of mistake never happens again. And then many will respond to that, some won't, and those that don't, you know, if you've got an integrator that just keeps blowing it, they keep making bad decisions and you're doing your best to stay on the same page and coach them up and you can't get them to come around, then at some point you likely in that case would have to make the call that they're not the right person to have as your integrator.
- [29:50]
Ryan Hogan
A part of that reminds me of the Jeff Bezos one way door, two way doors. So like there's very few, there's very few one way doors where if you go through, you can't come back on that decision. Most decisions are two way doors. How when you think about like finance, it's very easy to set policy. So it's like from zero to 5,000. That is your decision making authority. Above that it is the department head. Above that it's the integrator. Above that it's the visionary. Maybe there's even a board in place. So above a million bucks, we need board approval before we, we cut checks. How can you set that up practically meaning like, like how do you get everybody on the same page of like where the leaves are the branches, the trunk and the roots.
- [30:33]
Mark
So I think for recurring decisions it's pretty simple. So hiring decisions based on comp or whatever, you can just sort of categorically put those in there. So whatever kind of decisions seem to come back around, come back around. You could literally just make a list of that. But the key thing here, Ryan, I think is keep it simple. Don't over complicate this. So if we all have a shared understanding of kind of what that tree structure looks like, then somebody is facing a decision and they go to their manager. Okay, what do you think? I think it's a branch level. What do you think? Well, I think it's a trunk level or whatever. So you can kind of quickly get to a shared understanding of the stakes of a given decision. And again, most of them are going to be higher. So the ones that we really have to talk more about are not as many as you think.
- [31:22]
Ryan Hogan
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- [33:04]
Mark
Yeah, so there's, there's no one answer. And I think it's different for every visionary. You know, my preference is to have as much empty space on my calendar as I possibly can. With the exception being very focused, high leverage blocks where I'm either, you know, working directly with a client, I'm creating something, you know, I'm doing something that's again, on the path of, of where I'm trying to go. And then the rest of it I've got flexibility, adaptability. That's important to me. Right. So that's back to why it's hard for me to schedule podcasts on a, you know, one hour slot on an otherwise empty day. Drives me insane. So anyway, no, no single answer. But in terms of what they're working on and what they're engaged with, absolutely. They're in the leadership team level 10. Absolutely. They're in a same page meeting with their integrator. And beyond that, follow your energy, follow your curiosity. You know, you through the planning process, you know what the, the rocks are for the quarter, you know what the big stuff is that we're working on. You know what the issues are on the issue list. So you're thinking about that and there may be something that you are curious about or something that you think you can help with, where you can engage with whoever owns those rocks. You probably have heard me say that the visionary should not have rocks.
- [34:29]
Ryan Hogan
And that's my next question.
- [34:30]
Mark
Yeah, yeah, go ahead. So, and the reason for that is, is broadly speaking, they, they're not great project managers. And the way to think about being the owner of a rock is simply that you're the project manager, you're, you're not necessarily the doer. You might be the doer, you might be one of the doers. But as the owner of the project manager, your job is to marshal all the different resources we bring together. Got to bring together and coordinate them to make sure that we get this thing to done by the end of the quarter. So that's typically not in a visionary sweet spot. So it doesn't mean they can't be involved, but let's have somebody who's great at being a project manager own the thing and then you do your part. When I go around the table after we set rocks with a leadership team, you know, we'll do how many individual rocks they have and I always come to the, to the visionary and I go and the visionary has and they'll say no rocks. And this cool smile comes across their face because they finally accepted that that's the way for them to kind of stay in their zone of intrinsic genius. Right. And so at the same time, after I say that or they say that, I look at the rest of the leadership team and I sort of give them an admonition that it is incumbent on them to be sure to pull their visionary in wherever they can help, wherever they think they can add value to making sure that the rocks that they own are actually going to get done and done well. So it's that kind of relationship, it's that kind of engagement with the priorities that we have going on. Most visionaries also have a certain level of outside stuff where they're going, they're going out, they're getting exposed to things. So maybe they're in, you know, eo, ypo, Vistage, whatever organization it is, where they're talking to other people, they're hearing speakers, they're seeing stuff, they're getting a behind the scenes look at a business, another company, all that stuff helps. There's industry things, all kinds of big external relationships that they can be adding value in interacting with. And so every visionary just kind of has to think through that and figure out the combination that makes sense for them. That's in line with what they're trying not only to get done for this company, but ultimately what they're trying to get done in their overall picture as well.
- [36:52]
Ryan Hogan
I'll coin a new term, you've probably already used it visionary guilt. Like the biggest issue I've had with, I've never not had rock. So my last company we self implemented in 2017. And then basically any company that I'm involved in there is EOS implemented, whether it be through a professional implementer or if it's self implementing. So in all of that time, eight years, I've never once not taken one. Brock's.
- [37:24]
Mark
So let me ask you a question. Go ahead. Let me ask you a question. How many of those years were you also sitting in an additional seat to.
- [37:31]
Ryan Hogan
The visionary seat with Hunt a killer? So now I am and I take on marketing rocks. With Hunt a killer. I was always in the visionary seat and had. And had an integrator in place. I was still taking rocks.
- [37:41]
Mark
So a lot of times when I hear that situation, Ryan, somebody sitting in. They're also in the integrator seat. They're also in the marketing seat, whatever. They're sitting in another finance seat or whatever. And if they're doing that, okay, fine, have a rock. And they probably should. And a lot of times that's also a little bit of a nudge because they won't like it. Most of them, not everybody, but most of them don't like it. And so eventually I can get them out of that and on into. Get focused on that, on that visionary seat. So, you know, you got to make your call. I'm giving you best practice of what I see across many, many reps of, of playing that out. And you know, a lot of times, maybe to challenge you a little bit on it is when I see a visionary that's just dead set on having a rock, a lot of times it's not about guilt. Something's missing in their leadership team. And so if they truly have rock stars in every seat on that leadership team, the guilt goes away. It wasn't guilt in the first place. It was. I mean, there's a little bit of that. I'm not totally dismissing that, but it's more, the more powerful dynamic going on. There is. Man, I gotta make sure that gets done and I can still do it better than anybody.
- [38:59]
Ryan Hogan
Yeah, it's probably just getting in my own way as far as in the military. It's just like get stuff done and lead from the front and in order to lead, like you've got to do. And, and I, I always felt like that's how we've, we've quantified how we're doing. And I hear you.
- [39:16]
Mark
Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit. Right, so. So this is a visionary trap is the, the stuff, you know, and I teach in, in the book, I call it the, the, the Joy competence matrix. Right. So, and it's inspired by, by delegate and elevate that we teach in eos. But the idea is, you know, one axis is joy. The things at the top you love that gives you joy to do that stuff. The things at the bottom you hate, it just sucks the life out of you. Okay? The, the x axis is competence. So on the far right, there's things that you literally may be an expert on. You're really, really good at these things. The things on the left, there's things that you're what I call a hack, you're just not good at all right? And so you think about how all this stuff, stuff falls on there. And you know, as a visionary, typically you've gotten good at a lot of things and just out of survival, out of necessity, right? You had to get good at keeping the books, you had to get good at selling, you had to get good at whatever because you couldn't afford to pay somebody else. And just to keep the company alive and make it go, you had to do all these things. And so now here you are, and I ask you what you like to do. And sometimes that question gets a little bit confused because just because you're good at it doesn't mean that you like doing it. So, so I like that matrix because it really begins to call that stuff out. So now think about the lower quadrants. These are the things that don't bring you joy. In fact, the extreme is hate. There's things down there that you hate doing. I mean, dread and just drain and all the gnarly words. And some of those things that maybe you hate the most, you are an expert at, you're great at it, right? So you're highly competent. So think about that quadrant down there. I call it the trap. Because guess who wants you to spend time there?
- [41:09]
Ryan Hogan
You.
- [41:10]
Mark
Everybody else. Yeah, you're great at it. You hate it, but you're great at it. So because you're great at it, it's good for everybody but you, it's not good for you, right? And so there's this pattern that visionaries get in of self sacrifice. So I'm going to stay later. I'm going to be there earlier, I'm going to work harder. I'm going to be the example that everybody's going to aspire to. And I'm going to, you know what? We need more money. Okay, I'll pull my wallet out first. You know, I'll kick in more. I'll forego a paycheck this time around. Okay, I'll draw on my credit card this time to get us there. And we sacrifice and we sacrifice and we sacrifice. And so the picture I want you to have is that's a self limited model. You can only dig so deep into the self sacrifice. And I'm not saying that be a good teammate and team player and set a good example. I'm not saying don't do that. But I think you can go too far. And I see people go too far and then we get this cycle of entrepreneurial burnout and crash. And when you crash, a lot of things come crashing down and a lot of people are impacted by that. So it's a real thing. I sent an email out earlier this week and one of the pillars in the book is to maintain warrior shape because, you know, being an entrepreneur is not always easy. In fact, it's sometimes rarely easy. Right? And so you've got to be solid in your foundation, both from a physical body perspective, a mental perspective and a spiritual perspective. If you're going to be able to take the blows you've got, you're going to take and fight through the stuff, you're going to have to fight through and get through it. And so just sort of casually in the email I asked people, you know, how full is your tank right now, how you feeling in those areas? And Ryan, you would have been blown away at the responses I got from people that are just on the limit. They, I mean, and it's crazy because as they're writing out these long emails to me, they're saying, I don't write emails like this. But something about what you just described resonates with me. I thought about mailing it in. I thought about, you know, just shutting it all down. I thought about walking away. I thought about, right. And all these things where they're at that place that is, it's defeating you, feels hopeless. And, and so you've got to be super proactive, super intentional about giving yourself the foundation and finding your, your operating limits that you, that you stay within and focus on the stuff that you're truly great at. So, so back to your original question. So opposite that trap quadrant is the other side of that is the sweet spot, right? It's the place where you love doing this stuff and you're great at it. Again, you may be an expert at that stuff. That's where we want you to live. But the reality is when I ask you to or I offer you the opportunity to live, there you go. That's not work, that's, that's easy. I mean, that's not work. I have to be working. All these other people are working. But the reality, Ryan, is other people look at you and they go, how does he do that? I can't do that. How does he, how does he do that? It's easy for you because that's what you were built for. But recognize that it's hard for others. They can't go have the conversation and pull out the nugget. They can't go see all the stuff and pull out the pattern. They can't, they can't build that relationship. Right. It's, it's, it's hard for them. Easy for you. Hard for them. And that was a huge discovery for me when I realized that all the stuff in my trap and my hell quadrants down there, for some people, that's their sweet spot. How can that be? I hate doing that stuff. You tell me somebody loves that stuff. Yep. And so if you're doing it and you don't love it, then you might be taking that opportunity away from somebody else.
- [45:08]
Ryan Hogan
When you have, when you have a visionary, a founder that is world class, like absolutely incredible at something that's a revenue driver. And like, I see this time and time again. And I was actually just on a phone call with a buddy of mine. He's really good in one aspect of the business and every time he doesn't like it. So it's, it's that one where he's like, best in the world but hates doing it. Every time I see these folks pull out of that, there's some sort of degradation. How can folks combat that?
- [45:44]
Mark
So I think I see this a lot. So here's where I see that is people whose name is on the business. So Hogan Enterprises, my name's on the door. They got to talk to me. They expect to talk to me. Right. Or whatever. Right. So. So we get this thing going on in our head and you're great at it again. So. But you know, a single person who's great at something doth not a business make. Is that a thing? Let's go with that. So here's my point is, is you've got a business that you built and it is driven because you're great at this thing. Right? Okay, great. I come along and I look to value your business. Maybe I want to consider buying it. It. How big a discount am I going to put on it because of that?
- [46:28]
Ryan Hogan
The biggest.
- [46:29]
Mark
The biggest. Right. Because you're a bus factor. Bus hits you, business is over or it's significantly degraded. Right. So as a visionary if that's true, we just got to sit back and be really honest with ourselves and go, okay, that's a risk factor that we have to systematically attack. And what systematically attack might mean is we have to go through a period where we get a little drawback or degradation, as you said, to be able to build up on the other side and actually go beyond. Go beyond where we are today because we remove ourself as that limiting factor.
- [47:02]
Ryan Hogan
Got it? Okay. All of that, some profound, at least personal breakthroughs today. On this call, having this conversation, I want to make sure. I realize that. Well, I want to make sure that we touch on your new book, Visionary. So you're coming out with it. And I will. I will preface this with I have ordered it. As soon as I saw your email, the first. First thing I did was order the book. Second thing I did was email you and say, hey, maybe there's an opportunity this week. And so it's coming on Saturday, and I'm very much looking forward to reading it. All of that said, tell us about it, like, why did. Why did you write it? What's in it? Let's. Let's. Let's dig in.
- [47:44]
Mark
Well, let me. Let me show it. So. So there it is.
- [47:47]
Ryan Hogan
I saw your cover. You. You were doing a whole contest for the COVID right?
- [47:50]
Mark
Yeah. So. Interesting story on the COVID So one of the things I have three sons, and one of the things I do for them, with them, for me maybe, is when they graduate from college, I take them on a trip to any place they want to go. And so far that's worked, and I've been able to do what they asked for. So. So nobody's been ridiculous yet, but my youngest son graduated a couple years ago, and we. Norway, Denmark. And Norway. And when we were in Denmark, we were at the oldest amusement park in Europe, which is called Tivoli Garden. You ever been there? No. No. Pretty cool. I mean, just looks like what you'd think, a really old amusement park. And on the day we were there, it was raining, and so we're kind of trying to hide from the rain and get out of the rain and go in certain places. And so there was a little shop that looked pretty cool, and there was nobody in there and had big open doors. And so we just kind of ran in there out of the rain. We start looking around, and there was this really cool artwork on the walls that looked like these. These irises of eyes. In fact, the name of the place, I think, was Iris. And so we talked to the guy that's working there. And what they would do is they would take a picture of your iris, your eye, and, and they would make these just really cool pieces of, of art. And, and so they would. What was cool? We haven't been able to execute it yet. But what I thought was cool was they had. Had the eye of each of the members of the family on this thing. And when you look at your eye up close, I mean, it's a crazy looking thing. I mean, it's, it's really kind of fascinating. So we're playing around with COVID designs just with the, with the family, in the family room one day, and one of my sons just asked, he goes, hey, what about that, that place y' all saw in, in, in Denmark? And the, the iris thing? It's like, oh, that's interesting. So we had the artists kind of play around with that. And so that's, that's where the COVID came from. It was. Yeah, so. And then we kind of played it out. Lots of different variations and ultimately, I mean, I picked it. But. But the design that you saw is the one that was the pretty overwhelming favorite among all the people that we, that we asked about it.
- [50:02]
Ryan Hogan
They just happen to agree with you. That's happened.
- [50:04]
Mark
Yeah. I don't know which one came first either. Either I agreed first or they did. But, but anyway, so, so what's the book about? It's really how if someone is going to sit in this visionary seat, if they're going to embrace the visionary role, what do they need to do to be truly great in that role? So this is sort of a natural extension of Rocket Fuel and the work that we did there and we taught coming out of the writing of Rocket Fuel, we started by teaching integrators how to be great. And so nobody was talking to them. Lots of people are Talking to the CEOs, the founders, right. And so by extension the visionaries. So we didn't feel like they needed help. But as we started to work with more integrators, many of them asked, hey, do you have something like this for our visionary? Because they need some help. And, and so we sort of heard that. I began to think about that and all the different conversations that I'd had. And so a few years ago I put together a talk where in these, these, these 10 things just sort of, they just sort of flowed from me really pretty, pretty quickly. And I bounced them off people and they, they seemed to resonate. So I felt like I was on the right track. So I gave a talk at, at the US Conference out in San Diego a few years ago, room packed with. With visionaries. Many of them had their integrators with them. And it's kind of funny, at the. At the beginning of the talk, I asked, okay, how many visionaries in the room? So they all raised their hand. How many integrators in the room? So they all raised their hand. And I said, okay, keep your hand up if you have a great visionary. And to their credit, so many of the integrators dropped their hand, many of them sitting right next to their visionary. And so, you know, of course, the visionaries took it in, you know, for what it was, and they laughed because they were dead on. They were right. So I take them through these ten pillars, and the response was great. They loved it and seemed to really get something out of it. So I turned that into a workshop where we began to teach it. And so this book is the extension of that. Just taking all the stuff that we've kind of learned along the way and expanding it into now, you know, a single resource where you can, you can find all this stuff.
- [52:17]
Ryan Hogan
I love it. And I would ask you what your, your favorite pillar is, but I do want to just key in on one of them, which is the. The know thyself. So, like, what is. How does, how does one get to know thyself?
- [52:30]
Mark
Yeah, so there's. There's multiple roads into that question. And so the, the big road is it goes to a framework that I've developed, I call the Exponential Freedom Framework. And this is the idea that, Ryan, your definition of freedom is different than mine is different than my wife's. And if I don't know what that definition is for me, how am I ever going to get it? I'm probably not. I'm just going to get what other people tell me I need to have or tell me what I need to do. Right. And I sort of become guided by. By the world rather than by my own ambitions, my own direction, my own choices. And so when I first sort of encountered this question on my own, I'm like, all right, I've got to have a way to figure this out. And so it was sort of a funny little research project. I went and began to gather all of the gurus lists. So, you know, this person has five things, this person has seven things, this person has eight things or four things or whatever. And I put them all on a board and I begin to cluster them. Okay, so this is just a different way of saying that. So those things go together. This is A lot like that. So I can put them together and kind of move things around. And what I found, Ryan, is there are nine. There are nine different domains of freedom where you can actually make a choice about what you want that to look like. And so the whole construct of these nine domains of freedom is, look, look, let's get clear on which one's more important to you. And there are trade offs. So if you want more of this one, you're probably going to have less of that one. And there are dependencies where if I can get better at this one, it's going to help me get better at that one. And so it all kind of works together in an interrelated fashion. And so you need to understand which are more important, understand what you want your future to look like in each of these nine domains. And then we can draw a line back from through to today so that in the present you could begin to get really clear on, okay, this is the stuff I can focus on now. These are the habits, these are the levers that are going to give me the highest probability of being able to achieve that future that I want down the road. So that's the foundation is many entrepreneurs have never taken the time to think through that. They just sort of ended up where they are almost by accident. And so I want to take them through this process where they think about this stuff and they get intentional on where they're headed. And then this company that we're talking about is just one piece of the puzzle. And with that context, you can begin to answer the question, okay, how does this company serve me to, to get where I'm trying to go and do what I'm trying to do. And again, the company has its own charter, it has its own purpose, it has its own focus. And so that's great. But it also is serving the visionary entrepreneur in some fashions. We want to make sure that those things are in balance and those things are working together. So know thyself, you got to know that. And then you've got to begin to know, all right, if I'm going to be in a relationship with this integrator thing person, I need to know what I look like so that I can understand what I'm looking for in them. We talk about a two piece puzzle and so I need to very well understand the shape of my edge before I can understand the shape of the edge that I'm looking for out there that's missing. So all that stuff kind of comes together and know thyself and you really look in, we talk about intrinsic genius. So this is this combination of the stuff that you really, really love doing, the stuff that you're really, really great at, and the stuff that you are intrinsically driven to go and create an impact with. So what is it that you really care about? You know, your drive, I call it. And so all that stuff comes together to create your intrinsic genius. I can get you clear on that. So here's my intrinsic genius. You're spending more time there. You're clear on what your unique freedom looks like. So you're moving in that direction. You know who you're looking for in this integrator counterpart. Then we can begin to move down a path that brings all that stuff together and help you get what it is that you're after.
- [56:40]
Ryan Hogan
I love that when you think about the freedom aspect, and it's so funny you use the word freedom because, like, that's. That's it. Like, autonomy and freedom is like the. The two things that, that I want more than anything. It's interesting when you talk about, like, there's different definitions, like how people define what freedom is to them. Is there, is there a number associated with this? Like, like, do you have to put a number down? Or is it just like, you just kind of get a general sense of like, what you're trying to accomplish?
- [57:10]
Mark
Yes. So, so no, it's. It's very definitive. So. So the first thing, the first exercise that I like to do is really, it's a stack ranking of the nine domains, which is so hard. And, and I'd have to take you through it to, to really experience it. But it's. It was hard for me. And if I force you to put this before that, which do you put first? Right. And so that, that really begins to get you thinking, but then it's really about painting a picture of that future. So, for example, I want, from a relationship perspective, which is one of the domains, I want my children and their children and their children as far down as our lineage has progressed, when I'm really old out there, I want them to want to spend time around me out of desire, not out of obligation. Right. I don't want them to be there because they feel like they have to be. I don't want them to be there because they feel like I need them. I want them to be there because it's fun, because it's interesting, because it's entertaining, educational, because they get something really great and wonderful out of it. That's how I want them to feel. So if I want them to feel like that when I'm, you know, 120, then what am I doing now? I'm 60 now. What am I doing today to do that? But I had that realization, Ryan, when I was about 30 and it totally changed how I parented because I went from being the hard ass disciplinarian only to a little bit more thoughtful in terms of. All right, that was really stupid what my kid just did right there. I could really come down on them hard. I need to draw the lines. I need to teach them. I need to, you know, I want them to, to be, to have discipline, but I don't need to go that far. So here's the right place that sort of teaches them what I need them to learn to, to be successful humans, but protects my vision that I have for the future of the relationship I want to, to have with them down the road. Does that make sense?
- [59:28]
Ryan Hogan
Yeah, I love that. Also, I would not dare get a 9 out of 10 on, on our L10 today for, for not ending on time. So, Mark, I just, I just wanted to, I wanted to thank. I know you're a busy guy and I just want to make sure that, that whatever you got going on today, we can, we can get you there. Thank you so much for taking the time. I, yeah, don't tell anybody besides people that are listening, but I don't know if I've ever relistened to one of my podcasts. This one I'm going to relisten to because there was just so much that, that, that came out that was super impactful. So I just wanted to thank you again.
- [60:06]
Mark
Thanks so much, Ryan, for having me on. Thanks for reaching out and I'm so glad that, you know, the stars aligned and we got to.