← Confessions of an Implementer
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- [00:00]
A
As a leader, you got to probe people. It's like, you know, Susan, I, I'm not hearing from you, what are you thinking? Or, you know, I see a little look on your face. I may be getting that wrong. But is there something about this that's hitting you wrong? What, what are you thinking? And so just helping, you know, probe conversation and also demonstrating that you really do want to hear what people have to say, even if it's bizarre, but because if you can create an environment where it's okay, then people are going more inclined to participate. But you know, if there's a vulnerability there because then you're showing your true colors or maybe sometimes, you know, people will feel like, well, that shows that I'm naive or that I don't understand this. I'm not going to say anything. We've all thought that way. I mean, you know, I'm going to say I, I, I, I know I have and I do. And sometimes I'll hold back because I was like, I don't want to ask this stupid question. So I don't feel. And does that mean that was the environment that was wrong that caused me from doing that? Maybe, but probably more so it's about my own head trash. And so the good news is that I can work on that. It has nothing to do with anybody outside of me.
- [01:13]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. So what we were just talking about is mics, by the way, I gotta say, like you have, out of, out of all the interviews I've done, you have the nicest microphone.
- [01:36]
A
I do? Well, you know, I, first of all, thank you very much. I actually am admiring your microphone as well. And you just told me this is brand new microphone, right? So the first time you're using it. So I knew there was a reason that I waited this long to talk to you because I wanted the microphone, I wanted that.
- [01:53]
B
Here's what happened. I was looking at upcoming recordings, I saw your name coming up and I talked to Alana and I was like, I need a new mic for Randall.
- [02:01]
A
So, so this was typically, that is the reaction.
- [02:04]
B
I have to say, you, besides our microphones, you and I have a lot in common. So there's, there's this passion for aviation, which I'm like five years into getting my private pilot's license. So we're we're on the slow track right now. Our love for St. Pete's and the other thing that that kind of like struck me during our call a few months back was this idea of the middle management. And what I've found throughout my career is it's kind of the underserved under the professional development always goes to the leadership and things like that. And talk to me a little bit about that.
- [02:51]
A
Well, you know, first of all I look at the mid the managers and I'm putting together a program. It's a mid managers coaching program but it's sort of like the farm team for the leadership team. And what's interesting is that a lot of businesses that go through EOs are successful and success means growth and then they have a challenge. It's good challenge, but they have a challenge in terms of having really competent leaders and managers. And ideally, you know, they would want that to come from inside just because there's so much, so much value in that understanding culture and having time to really be part of a company. And so this was born because there's a lot out there on management. But what I realized was there wasn't one program that's experiential that mid managers that are on track for higher leadership. So this is really kind of what it's developed into because you know, it's investment time and money that they can go through and have experience and share with others that are going through that experience and then really get the confidence and the competence to be doing great leadership and management. And I'll tell you, I think part of what drove me as I think about even the desire to put this together is that in my career I've had good managers or good bosses and I've had bad bosses and I've had a lot of bad bosses, not bad people, but they just weren't good at, at managing and leading. And that made a huge difference in my life in a negative way. And I see that in a lot of ways. People that either they just don't belong in that role, not because they don't have the skills, but it may be that they just don't have the desire because it's a very different kind of a track. And a lot of folks in the, in their careers go into that, into management because it is the clear cut path for growth and higher compensation and all. But what I realize is that we first have to do a good job of just making sure people are on the right track. And if we can, even those considering going into my program can Opt themselves out sooner rather than later. That's a success as well, just because it's not for everyone. But anyhow, it excites me because I think impact, that's a big word for me. I mean, a lot of people use it, but impact for me is huge in the sense that I know I'm energized when I feel like something I've done has had positive impact. And not everything I do has positive impact, but I try my best. And this was one where I thought if I can create something that really provides that confidence with someone who belongs in that track and then helps the company solve that problem. Because as they're growing, you want good managers that eventually become potentially on the leadership team. You know, it's a win, win. So I'm really excited about the work we're doing with that.
- [05:48]
B
What makes a good manager. And like, to preface this, like, in the, in the Navy, we say that the Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy. Like the Chiefs are the ones that get stuff done. And it's kind of like the ultimate manager. And they spend years, typically 10 to 15 years, going through all the ranks to get to that. And there's a lot of training that comes along. Yeah, what to you like, what makes a great manager?
- [06:15]
A
You know, I say first and foremost, it's truly having a desire to help people succeed. And so, you know, and to be in a position where you, you have those skills where people, you know, want to follow and that you can mentor and you can coach and enabling people to be their best and also to head off issues that might be getting in the way of people doing their best. And so a lot of management is about that. You know, it's a lot of issues that have to be dealt with, but I think that's the number one. And in fact, you know, so we, we are halfway down the road of a beta group. 10 of my clients send 10 of their, their mid managers into this program. It's eight modules and it goes for six months and it's been a blast. And we do it in cohort groups. So the cohort groups are 8 to 10. And the big, big them being there together. But the starting point we always, and we will do this and we did this in this beta is that we said we have a zoom call with the participant and their boss and we just validate the reasons for wanting to go through this. And there's no perfect answer. But the thing that I'm looking for is do they have the desire to help others and do they see that as their success. Now, for sure, in the world we live in, you wear a few hats. So you're doing stuff and you're accomplishing things outside of managing, leading. But my belief is that if you're in a leadership and management position, your biggest value is everything about setting people up for success and holding accountability and building accountability around that success that we're looking for. I think that's the key aspect and there's other parts. Part of it is emotional intelligence. It's so important to have leaders and managers that have a pretty high level of emotional intelligence, because I think that's one of the things we find that you can have all the skills and the tools, but if you don't have emotional intelligence to apply to that, it can be a big failure. So that's an element as well. But then I think with that you've got people, then that truly starts to trust in that leader and manager. And then your ability to have impact is that much bigger because now you're helping people, you know, be successful. And as you're helping people be successful, then you're helping the organization be successful. So it's, it's, it's like, it's just the perfect combination.
- [08:53]
B
And one of the things we, we see this all the time and, and I've experienced this, I've made this mistake in the past. Like generally what leaders and, and organizations do is they pick their, their top performers, their top salesperson, their top operations person, like whoever is doing the work and doing the work the best. And they're like, that's the person that's going to manage this. And then what, I mean, you know, this, what happened, you promote them and then, and then it all falls apart. What, what are some things, some signs that, that leaders should be looking for to say like this person is ready for, for management?
- [09:32]
A
Yeah, I, you know, I think you bring up a good point. And it's not the person that's being promoted's fault. We're just under this false assumption that if someone is successful in what they do, and the classic case is the sales, right. And that's the one that's interesting is because it's one that probably fails the most because a great salesperson more likely is not going to be a great manager because they're just, you know, they're, they're in there and they're, it's, you know, they're very competitive. And a lot of that competitiveness comes with how, what they themselves achieve. This isn't everyone, but it's A lot of salespeople, and that's what makes them great in the sales arena. You want, you know, you want collaborators, you want people that be out there by themselves. But then we're shifting, and we're shifting the skills, and the focus is different now. There is value in having proven competence in whatever you're doing. But I think that the flaw is assuming that that's what's going to get you in a position to be an impactful leader or manager. That's just wrong. So part of the questions, I think, are, you know, I think the main thing is, why do you want this? And not to put someone on the spot and say that there's any right answer or wrong answer. Just, let's just try and understand what motivates you about going down this track. What concerns might you have about doing this? What skills do you have now that you think you could apply to this? What skills or competencies do you think you might need to work on? And it would be interesting to have conversation around those questions to help just build a conversation to get more confidence about whether this is the right path for that person.
- [11:16]
B
Got it. And the thing that, and you said this a little bit as you were talking about kind of your own vetting process as you're bringing people into your program. It sounds like some of the key things that leaders should be listening for is it's less to do with individual performance, and it's more to do with like, do they want to help others succeed?
- [11:37]
A
That's right. Do they want help others succeed? And not to confuse that with being soft, because one of the things that the program, what we push for, especially around accountability, and this is very, very much aligns with the US Philosophy is absolute clear expectations. And, and I add on to this not only clear expectations, but confirming that we agree on those expectations, even if those expectations aren't being met today, because it's possible that we're setting someone up in a seat and we have expectations, we could say this at some point, and I call them outcome statements. We want to make these statements that says this is a true statement about what's happening in the seat. Do we agree that that's a. An expectation that we agree is part of this seat? And then the second part of that is the resources that. Are we clear that we've. We've provided all the resources to set that person up for success? And so I, I go back to this in saying that, you know, setting people up for success is not about just holding their hands. It's Actually setting them up for success and then expecting them to succeed. It's like now. And what that does is it enables you with confidence to have a higher expectation of accountability. Because in the back of our minds if we haven't set somebody up for success, we're going to give them some passes. Because in the back of our mind we're thinking we really didn't, we can't expect this. So if we do the best to get clear about expectations, do everything we can to set them up for success, nothing's perfect. But we feel like for the most part they've got the resources, they've got the skills, they're the right people in the right seats, then all that's left is for us to expect them to be successful, support them for that success, but to hold the accountability at a high level.
- [13:23]
B
Do you think that the competencies within that certain role. So let's say, let's use sales, since we're on sales. Do you think somebody that is ready to be a manager could have a competency in operations or something else and that then take over sales? Or do you think they need both? Compassion, they need empathy, they need eq, they need to be able to hold people accountable and they also need to understand how that core function area operates on a day to day basis.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah, I do think that there needs to be a demonstration and confidence around that. Knowing that core competency, that area. I think that's important. Not to say that someone from operations couldn't go and run a sales group. I just think it's, there's some more challenges to it. But part of the challenge is getting the respect and trust from the sales groups. Like this is an ops guy, you know, and that example is an interesting one because there's usually a lot of tension between ops and sales. So already it's like the enemy has come over. So maybe it could work. But I think that it definitely is important to demonstrate a level of understanding and competency in that area of core work. And so you've got to come with some credibility or you got to build that credibility. But, but then the management skills, the capabilities in terms of managing and leading, they come with you. That's no different. You would apply the same kind of stuff to sales as you would operation. But you've got to then mix in there the understandings of the nuances of what your teams are dealing with and be able to manage around that. Otherwise then you're gonna, you're gonna lose some momentum and also lose some credibility.
- [15:11]
B
Got it. Do you Think that management and leadership is synonymous or what's your philosophy there?
- [15:20]
A
We do use them interchangeable and it is interesting because part of what is in the program, it's something that I developed several years back that I've applied to some of my leadership teams is a thing called lmd. We have a thing called lma, which gets a little confusing, which is great. Leadership, Management and building accountability D is really about the assumption that when you're in a work environment, 100% of your time goes in into the leadership, management or doing activities. So it's like a pie and you sort of estimate so what percentage of my time goes into leading and managing and doing. And then typically what we'll see is if people are honest, there's a lot of doing and you know, less leadership. And maybe, you know, sort of in the middle is management or managing activities. And you know, the leadership activities I think are more strategic. I mean, generally speaking, leadership is more strategic. It's more about building a following, you know, having, you know, real connection to the vision and helping people see the big picture and activities like that, the management, that's where a lot of the, you know, the moving parts happen. It's just managing around, getting results. And so there's a lot of execution and management. But what's interesting is when we do this with the leadership team and also we're doing, doing this with mid managers is sort of getting a clarity around the doing and what doing is legitimate because there's legitimate doing. So we don't want to get in the mindset of hey, if we're a leader manager, we don't do, we just lead it, manage. That's not true. But then what's not legitimate and what do you need to get off your plate? Usually getting clear about who's accountable for that and how that accountability rises and the combination of the three are sort of the magic formula of, you know, how we try to run or focus our time. And again, it's not perfect. There's no perfect formula and there's no way to perfectly measure it. But if you get in the concept, what usually happens is people are saying, I'm doing a lot of doing. And typically it's like there's no one else to do it. And we got to step back and say, well, we got to shift that because if you're going to be more impactful, you got to take some doing off your on your plate and then shifted into more managing and leading. Because the assumption is that your value is higher when you're Doing that. So I always tell folks when they do the delegate elevate or you know, tail delegate things, it's not about doing less, it's about doing more of the right stuff that makes you more valuable and adds more value to the organization. So but leadership and management is used interchangeably. But this is why with the mid managers I speak leadership a lot because there is leadership in managing and I would say just the ratio gets higher as you get higher in your responsibilities. So the leadership team has a higher percentage of leadership. But really when you think about an EOS run company, the visionary probably has the highest of the leadership or at least the big view type of responsibilities and maybe the integrator and then the others, they still have it, but there's still a lot of managing. There's just a start. A lot of it's all about like execution. If you're not executing, then you're not really producing what you need to produce.
- [18:42]
B
And what does that perfect pie look like? So let's say, let's say it was an individual contributor and we can stay in the sales role. So it was 100% doing. That's all they did every day. And now they're getting elevated into some sort of management, sales manager role. When, when you look at that pie like what's kind of that, that perfect balance where they're doing like the perfect amount of each of those things.
- [19:05]
A
I wish there was a perfect answer. You know what I would say is the way I look at it is it's relative because the other aspect is the organization. What's the culture in the organization? This is really important because we could take great skills from organization, organization. We got to look at what's the culture. Some cultures are we're hands on, you just do it. Now. Part of it is I, you know, as, as a driver of this concept of, you know, leadership, management and doing, I would always push for be careful about how much value you put on people, how much they'll do versus how competent they are in helping others succeed and do even more than they would do. So what I think the question to ask is where are you now and where do you think is the ideal? And typically what happens is it's a reduction of doing and it's a clarity of there's some doing that's legitimate and I am absolutely going to do it. Like this is mine to do, mine to own. But some of it also depends on your place in the organization. And then if we think about eos and the accountability chart, do we have our Names in more than one seat, like we're the leader, but we might be in an organization where there are other seats that our name is in legitimately because that's the way the organization's set up. But when I'm asking someone to be taking inventory of their time, I'm asking them to take it, you know, inventory of them as a whole person. So if I got three seats, it's 100% in what I do when I'm at work and someone has more than just the management seat, then they're doing is going to be higher. So I think it's relative, but it's also something you need to see improvement. And I would say on the manager's level, like in terms of dominance, the dominant time typically should be in a management arena and then, you know, second to that would probably be leading and then third would be doing. So I think we want the least amount in the doing category. Otherwise we're probably not as impactful as we could be in our leading and managing responsibility.
- [21:13]
B
This is a two parter. Number one is one of the exercises that you guys, that you run or that you suggest that new managers run is like these are the things, like these are the buckets and I'm measuring my time over a day, over a week.
- [21:30]
A
Yes. Yeah. And thank you. Because I couldn't get the word bucket out. I was saying arena and that's exactly what I was thinking. So you got the term that I want, what bucket is it in? So what we do, similar to if you're familiar, you know, if you've gone through eos and done the delegate elevate, we tell people to, before you do that, take some time to take an inventory of what you do and literally as much time as you need. And I always say to my clients, just sort of put it in categories, don't get into the weeds but just say, you know, spend time responding to emails, meetings, things like that and put categories down and spend time, document it, logging it. And then at the point where there's no new category, you've got all your categories. Now what you haven't done is you haven't done an exact science in terms of how much time you put into it. In our exercise we, we just simply do low, medium and high. Meaning like just put next to you as you look at, you know, a category of, you know, reviewing and responding email is a low, medium or high on any average week, it gets you there. Right now we have an inventory, we have a little bit on, you know, where our time is going and then that's what we want them to take a look at. That's your inventory, that's your time inventory. And then literally just step back and saying, based upon what I put on here, not an exact science, what's my best guess of today, where that fits and what that ratio is? And there's no way to prove it one way or another. But what I'll say is most when they do this, they feel pretty confident that that ratio is relatively accurate. It's good enough for what we're doing. Then we're saying, well, so ideally as you look at, you're getting a better understanding of what your impact is and what really you are trying to do to be a more impactful member of this team and helping others succeed more and knowing what goes generally into a management category, a leadership category and doing category. Just step back and say what is your ideal breakdown? And then now we've got a point of where I am, where I want to go. And it just gives us an opportunity to say so, well, what needs to change? And usually the thing that needs to change is, well, there's certain things they have to delegate, but there's other things as well. You could say, you know what, we have this big problem and we have a terrible CRM system. So one of the things that has to change is we got to get a CRM system that we have in here that everybody uses because if that happens, it's going to enable us to be able to be more proactive in the kind of work we do. So there might be systems, types of things you put on, but what's beautiful about that, we say here are the milestones, these are the things that happen. What do I believe I need to be able to say that I've accomplished to be able to at some point say I think I'm as close as I can get to that ideal ratio. And all that's doing is getting your mind around where to put the focus and, and the impact then comes from there because there's no way you're not getting impact if you're doing these things. And then being stronger in leadership and management now that's just about time. It's not addressing the skills and the competencies around that, but the program does address that as well. But that's the time element of it.
- [24:37]
B
Got it. And what are some like when you think about leadership and management, my mind immediately goes to one on ones or check ins or like we've got this thing every single Friday, we call it Friday Firesides we all come together as a team. We talk about the wins, the losses, where we're going, where we're at our values, things like that. Like what are some other things beyond that? As managers are putting these things into buckets that would classify as kind of that leadership or management. The doing is pretty, you know, am I actually doing things? But what are some other examples of, of the other buckets?
- [25:14]
A
Well, I think the management buckets are a lot like that. What are the things we're doing that are supporting the people to be successful? So the one on ones for sure, that's a management. I would say L10s are management. I would say that in the EOS world, your quarterly pulse, your quarterly a leadership team getting away every quarter for a full day. That's leadership because it's more strategic. I'd say coaching is management. So I'm coaching. What am I doing to help people be better? You know, I use the term, we're always coaching. We're either coaching up or coaching out. And so what I mean by that is it never stops. And if someone is up for it, we're going to continue to coach them up. They're just going to get better and better and they're going to respond and they're going to respond to the increased responsibility and being better as a person and better as a, as a member of a company, or we're coaching them out, which means that we're continuing to coach for where they need to be. But if they can't be that, then eventually they're finding that, you know, they're, they're coaching out of that position, they're coaching somewhere else. So, but coaching to me is that, you know, I just think that the leadership definitely what comes under leadership is anytime someone, whether you're a manager or on the leadership team, stepping back and taking time to, you know, think strategically and to have strategic discussions. You know, in, in the, again, in the US World, we, you know, we have the clarity breaks. We do encourage our clients to clarity breaks. To me, that's, that's leadership. That is stepping back and it's really thinking about what do I need to see here that I don't see. So it's, I think of leadership as bigger picture and also giving, you know, anything you're doing to get people on board of the vision, getting them excited, that's leadership. And then the management, it's a lot of what happens to get that there. And, you know, it's a lot more about what has to happen to get
- [27:16]
B
good execution you talked about this notion of coaching people out. If an organization gets it wrong and they promote the wrong person, do you think that there's an opportunity to coach them out of that seat into maybe back into their individual contributor seats or something like that? Or is your philosophy like, nope, it's too late. Like the, the organization screwed up by not properly, you know, evaluating this. This human. And. And unfortunately, you have to part ways at this point.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah, I, I think, you know, when I, When I talk about the concept of coaching up and coaching out, it's sort of this binary thing where either we're continuing to evolve in the seed and the expectations, or we're not. Now coaching out might be coaching out to the realization that they. The seat I was just in is the better seat. And if ego will accept it, I think an organization should certainly do what they can to make that a possibility. But also, sometimes coaching out is the clarity that this isn't where this individual wants to be. I like to think about, if you're doing great coaching, that someone who's aware is going to be the one that's making that decision. It's. It happens before you as a manager have to say, you know, this isn't the right place for you, which is eventually what some decisions have to end. But coaching out just means that, look, the expectations aren't going to change. I understand the struggles you're having, and I understand it. I can be empathetic, but I'm not going to be sympathetic. This position requires something, and then that's where I go back to what we call the impact window, where, you know, do we have clarity on expectations? And if we set them up for success, that is your responsibility as a manager. Like I want managers look at themselves in the mirror and say, have I really set them up for success? And if the answer is no, what is it that I need to do? That's my job to help the people that I'm leading and managing to. To be in a position where they can be successful. But then that's the coaching. So now we're just helping them get there. And then it's up to the individual to take it upon themselves to end the initiative to get there. But the coaching out, I think, can be in a lot of different endings. And the, The. The optimal is that they're making that decision, but if they're not, we're making that decision. You know, we're. We're driving that final decision.
- [29:42]
B
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales Talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer, we were spending hundreds of hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds of, if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting As a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales replacement recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A r b o r.com let's get your next sales superstar hired. When we think about this, this notion of coaching and coaching out or coaching up, one of the issues that I see is, is and I'm in this bucket, it's I don't like having tough conversations. And so when this coaching is happening like, and I'm sure you trained to this because now you're bringing managers who are going to have to do coaching of their own because that falls into that leadership management bucket. Like what are some tips, tricks that you give from a coaching standpoint to be able to give that candid feedback to where it's being delivered appropriately, it's being received and there's action being taken on it.
- [31:39]
A
Yeah, that's always hard. I mean it's hard for me too. I would say that it's not something that comes naturally to me. I really enjoy, I like to have, have positive conversations. So I think a lot of people are in that position. And then unfortunately on the other side, sometimes people think that they have to become somebody they're not. They got to be this hard ass. The first thing that we talk about is just being clear about your expectations. So I like that. One of the suggestions I have is you start a conversation with I have some concerns. Let me just tell you what they are. So now you're not, you're not hitting them with a hammer. You're just saying, look, I've got concerns. You're putting it out there. That's just saying I've got concerns. I'm not saying that this is an absolute fact, but I want to have conversation around it. And then you tell them, here's what I'm concerned about. Here's some things that have happened over the last month. These are some discussions we had, and I thought we were in agreement in terms of what was going to be done and wasn't done, or this is the communication that I would have expected to happen that didn't happen. But. So I think the key there is starting to having the willingness to have these conversations early. You see, when you're in that conversation, you're nowhere near saying to someone, I don't think this is the right position for you. Unfortunately, what happens when we're not proactive is we get to the position where that's where we're at and we haven't had these conversations. And I think that is the number one. Have the willingness to have the conversations, be clear about expectations, having empathy. I think empathy is really valuable, but not confusing that with sympathy. It's like someone could talk about how legitimately they're having some very difficult times in their life. And I think all of us human beings could understand that. And we need to get to the point where we can understand that, truly relate to it, and still have the expectations. So understanding that despite it all the expectations are there, what do we need to do to meet them? We're not watering down the expectations because then we're not fighting for the company, we're not doing our job for the company. But we can do that in a humble way and we can do that in a human way. But I think it starts with having these conversations early. So that means the manager needs to be on the ball. You need to start seeing signs of when you think things are going off track and have those conversations. And I would say 90% of the time when you do that, you're not getting to that really tough conversation where it's either you're letting someone go or you're close to letting someone go. And if you do, you know it's warranted because you have been pushing all along the way to get it to be something else.
- [34:22]
B
What's the right amount of time to have those types of conversations? And I love that because one of the mistakes that I've made in the past is I've avoided the tough conversations until we were past the point of no return. And there was Only one. There was only one path at that point, how quick should those conversations be happening? Like, if something happens in the moment, it's like you pull them aside and you say, you know, I've got some concerns. Or is this a weekly routine, much like an L10, but maybe it's a weekly one on one. How do you think about the frequency or the timing?
- [34:52]
A
Yeah, the word that comes to my mind when you ask that question is it just needs to be timely. So you need to decide, because I think if it's a question, should this be in the moment? How critical was it? Like, how critical is it at that moment to be able to be in that moment and to. To actually show that as an example, or to have that conversation at as close to when something happened as possible? Or is it something that you can find the right time to say, hey, and just want to have a. Give you a call and just, you know, a couple things on my mind. I wanted to talk to you about that. And again, you know, it might start with, I have some concerns, but that it may not even be that deep. It just means I observe something a little bit taken back. I just want to talk to you about it so I understand it. So here again, we're having a conversation. We're not saying, hey, I got the answer, you did something bad, but I am going to have a conversation because it's important for me for us to be on the same page and for you to be successful. And part of this is if I can have a conversation with you and tell you something early, I'm giving you an opportunity to understand that and to pivot or to shift or to do something. And that, that to me comes under the umbrella of accountability. I'm having the conversation, so I'm accountable for having this conversation with you. And then I'm giving you an opportunity to be accountable, to receive that and decide what you do with that. And so the accountability does not. It just continues to grow. So I think, you know, I'd love to be able to give you an exact answer, but I do think part of it is you've got to recognize your personality as the manager. And if you have the tendency not to, you know, not to want to have what you consider to be awkward conversations or difficult conversations, you have to step back and say, so how am I going to overcome that? Because I must be willing to have conversations and just understand the sooner I have the conversations, really, the more straightforward they're going to be and the less difficult they will be. And the beauty of this is if you've been having these conversations and things don't change, you're more confident that things need to change. You're not questioning yourself. You've been doing what you need to do. You're asking the person that you're, you're managing to do what they need to do.
- [37:03]
B
What are, what are. Sometimes when you think about, when you think about a great manager, what are some, what are some like, examples of, of like taking that manager to, or, or some things that you're looking at, of taking that manager to the next level. And one mistake that I've made in the past is I've had great managers and I'm like, this person deserves a seat on the senior leadership team. And that's a whole new kind of skill set. Like, one of the things that I've learned over the years is the further someone moves up, the more that they have to balance the company and the needs of the company and balance that with the needs of the people. And there's this fundamental shift. Are there key things as like managers are progressing that you're looking for, whether it be the pie is evolving as far as like they're doing much less and some of these other things are opening?
- [37:53]
A
That's a really great question. You know, so first I would say, you know, the language I would use is that there's a seat available. The reason I'm going to step back here, because it's something you said about deserves a seat at the leadership table or something like that, and I get that. The reason I'm going to address that, because it just popped in my mind, is in as many EOs, clients I've worked with and sessions I've had, sometimes that language is there. It's like they deserve to be on the leadership team and they're almost saying because they deserve some, that they're going to create a seat on the leadership team, which we all know is wrong. When we talk about the accountability chart structure first, then plugging in great people, you know, that's the mantra. So first is, do we see that potentially there's going to be a seat? You know, the best is it's proactive, someone's about to retire or whatever. Or whatever, or the, or the businesses is evolving and then you legitimately see that structure wise, there's another seat opening up. So that's the first thing. Is there a seat? It's not taking someone because they deserve it. We would love great people to have opportunity, but we're not going to just force fit opportunity Then going to your other question, I think a lot of it has to do with what you are seeing about the cadence, the rhythm, their ability to build trust, their teams, how much they value them. To your point, their willingness to understand the big picture and not just be there to protect the team. It's like, well, wait a minute, we have an organization. Our number one priority is to make sure this organization is strong. We do that through very powerful teams, productive teams. Hopefully the environment is we do that in a fair way where we treat our teams well. But to your point, do we see someone that is able to see the bigger picture and understand that their job is now expanded a bit and that it can't be just as just their department now, I would argue in this management track, you, you still do need to see the big picture. We have a module towards the end of it is it's leading up and across because we want everybody to recognize you're not just leading the people that report to you. You're leading, you're managing, actually managing up and across. You're managing expectations with your boss, you're managing expectations with your peers. Part of that is paying attention to what your other. Your peers that have other teams and other departments, what they need. So their ability to show that that's something that they see, they have an awareness around that I think is another indicator that they're ready to move into this higher leadership or onto the leadership team. So I think it's observations of sort of how they act and their ability to see the big picture and their willingness to sort of take on that big picture a little differently than they do when their focus is just their team. Hopefully that helps a little bit.
- [40:58]
B
One of the things that popped in my head as you were talking about that and getting on the leadership team, and I think it's good to grade talks about. No, it's not good to grade. It's the five dysfunctions of a team. And it talks about this notion of first team. And it's like your first team is the leadership team. And what I've seen quite often is like, it's very hard for folks to make that shift, to make that mental shift because they've been caring and feeding for their people for so long, and now it's like it's still your team. And this whole idea of empathy and care and feeding and developing, like all of those things remain true. But your first commitment is to the leadership team.
- [41:36]
A
Yeah. And basically your commitment is to the company. You know, that whole concept comes from Lencioni. I think is a big one and recognizing that this is where I think this is a skill. As a leader, you've got to be good at communicating to your, with your team to, to at least give them an understanding of the why behind some decisions that might feel like that they, they were counter to what was healthy for that team. There's a fine line because it's not about you're going in there and trying to justify and get people to agree. You're just trying to give of clarity and you're showing the team that this is your commitment. You know, we talk about, we do this always in the annuals, the Lencioni pyramid, which starts with trust and then conflict, the healthy conflict and then commitment. The commitment is what we're talking about. Because when we talk about commitment on Lencioni's pyramid is are we truly fully committed? Like if we're a member of the leadership team, we're not just committing in words and then we going back to our team and saying, look, this was the decision. I don't completely agree with it, but we've got to do this because this is what was decided. That's not commitment. So part of it is what does it take you for you to be truly a member of our leadership team where you can get to the point where you're bold enough to have the healthy conflicts. Like, I don't agree with this and let me tell you why and I want to be heard. Okay, so then, then let's go through it. Let's have healthy debate. Then we'll make a decision we made. Even if it's a decision that I didn't completely agree with. It is team one and I'm, I am on board now. If a lot of decisions are being made that I don't agree with, then there's a different issue. And maybe you just don't want to be with that company or that team that at least is bringing up the right issue. Right. But you should. And then you're, you know, I think that that extra skill is your ability to communicate to your team the big picture why that decision was made and the commitment behind that decision and your expectation that you know that they're going to support it and understanding of what the real issues that come out, other than it's a pain in the butt, what are the real issues that we need to know and then we'll address them. Those issues, that's healthy.
- [43:39]
B
And you're an EOS implementer, an expert EOS implementer. So you're facilitating these types of Conversations quite frequently, there's leaders that are also facilitating inside of their own meetings. How do you create that environment where everybody in the room has the confidence to speak up and challenge things? Or we talk about this a lot. But in practice, and trying to make sure that everybody feels empowered, what are some tips and tricks you use?
- [44:14]
A
Well, I'd say first obvious thing is it's a direct correlation with the real trust in the room. And that's a general statement because sometimes it's hard to pinpoint. Some people are just built in a way where they don't. They feel it's risky to express their opinion, or they feel as though maybe legitimately or not legitimately, that they will be vulnerable and maybe shot down if they have an opinion. So part of it is to be honest about the environment that's there. If you truly are wanting to have that input, you've got to create an environment where people can have it. And there's no like, oh, that was a stupid thing to say, or why did you say that? Or there's some kind of a stigma on someone because they said something. And that's, that's interesting because it takes some real self evaluation of yourself as that manager leader and of your team and of your company. To me, this goes into culture. What's the culture here? There are some cultures where it's about getting the right answer and that there's not a lot of latitude for experimenting and getting it wrong. So part of it is understanding the culture you're in. But I would say, getting back to your question, if you're in a group and you really do believe that, you know, you want that healthy conflict as a leader, you got to probe people. It's like, you know, Susan, I, I'm not hearing from you what are you thinking? Or, you know, I see a little look on your face. I may be getting that wrong, but is there something about this that's hitting you wrong? What are you thinking? And so just helping, you know, probe conversation and also demonstrating that you really do want to hear what people have to say, even if it's bizarre. So, because if you can create an environment where it's okay, then people are going to be more inclined to participate. But, you know, if there's a vulnerability there because then you're showing your true colors, or maybe sometimes if, you know, people will feel like, well, that shows that I'm naive or that I don't understand this. I'm not going to say anything. We've all thought that way. I mean, you know, I'M going to say, I know I have and I do. And sometimes I'll hold back because I was like, I don't want to ask this stupid question. So I don't feel. And does that mean that was the environment that was wrong that caused me from doing that? Maybe, but probably more so it's about my own head. Trash. And so the good news is that I can work on that. It has nothing to do with anybody outside of me.
- [46:45]
B
We haven't even gotten into. I don't even know if we. I hate to open up this bucket at this point, but I got to ask. And it's a complete change in direction. You are in aviation. You are an aviation enthusiast. You've got a vistage talk that kind of gets into this. So I at least want to bring it up of like, what are some things that you've experienced or learned in aviation that directly translate into business?
- [47:17]
A
Yeah, no, that's great. You know, I love aviation, and I'm speaking to someone who knows this, so you can. You can start. We get to the point where it's going to start getting dark, and it's like, wow, we're still talking about aviation because it's just so much fun, you know, if you're a pilot. There's just something about it, the freedom and all. I actually do a monthly series that comes out the third Tuesday of every month called Leadership Lessons from the Cockpit. So I literally go in the cockpit and we do a lesson, and part of it is just because there's so many great analogies between operating in a safe environment and flying and running a business. So one of the bigger things is process. So this is the thing that I talk about. In fact, just did my current leadership lesson that's going to be coming up next week. It talks about how, and I don't know if you know this stat, there's a 99.9% success rate in commercial aviation, meaning that in terms of accidents and safety, 99.9%. That's not by accident. Now, a lot of people say, oh, my God, you know, there's so many problems with the airlines. It's delays and this and that. But I'm talking about is safety. And I'm saying that they take a very complex operation and have a 99.9% success rate. And so my first premise is we have a lot to learn from that because having good, solid process is going to give us similar results. But there aren't many industries that can say they have a 99.9% success rate. Now, again, I'm talking about safety. I'm not talking about customer satisfaction, but I'm talking about safety, which is the most important thing. Now, you know, we've had some high profile accidents lately and they're unfortunate, but again, the stats are there. There are so many flights. I think there's, I think there are around 30,000 commercial flights. Is it per day? I mean, I have to look at it, you know, now I'm going to probably confuse myself. There's a lot of flights that happen and it may be per day. I think it's like per day. It's incredible across this country. And I may have my number wrong, but the 99.9% is something that is validated. And so process, I'd say, is that the things that are kind of like, they may at some points feel boring. They're the things that are going to keep us on track. They're the things that are going to keep us going. So I will say this. As an EOS implementer, by far the number one component of the six key components that's the most neglect, neglected is process. And it's validated every time they do an organizational checkup. And the organizational checkup shows process is the lowest of the six key components. It's understandable because, and here's the reason, if it was life or death, process would be better. You know, in aviation it's life or death if you don't get it right. If you got an 80% track record on safety, that's not good. And people are going to react and they're not going to fly. So you won't have anybody flying. So if your business was at that risk where something slipped that far that you wouldn't have customers, guess what, you'd figure it out and you'd get processed to support it. So I think that's the number one analogy that I, big analogy that I take from aviation that I always try and remember. I mean, I love it. I, I don't know, you know, you're. How far are you in getting your private pilots, like, license?
- [50:35]
B
I'm 20 hours in and ready for my first solo.
- [50:39]
A
Okay.
- [50:39]
B
I just haven't gone back in probably 18 months right now.
- [50:43]
A
Okay. And you know, it is the, it's the, it's this classic case with your license. There's, you know, either you don't, you have enough time, you don't have enough money, or you have enough money, you don't have enough time, but you usually don't.
- [50:54]
B
It's always that, that's exactly it.
- [50:58]
A
Right. And that's where. So that's the problem. But I would say, like every time I fly, I file an IFR flight plan, instrument flight plan, instrument flight rules. I do that because there's a system that we all pay for and I want to take advantage of. I don't have to pay extra for it. There was a point where there were going to be user fees on it, but that's a whole other thing. The AOPA took care of that. But the bottom line is have a great system. Once I file a flight plan and I just flew this past Sunday from Virginia to Florida, I waited a day. I didn't go Saturday because Saturday was not good weather, but Sunday I went and I filed an IFR flight plan. Perfect VFR day. But I got in the system and I was with the controller from beginning to end and it just felt more safe. And I'm in a system and they've got, they've got accountability because they have to keep IFR traffic separated. So I just feel like I have extra. But that's because they have a system and that it works and I'm taking advantage of. And because of that, I think I'm safer.
- [51:58]
B
I love it. All right, last question. On the. We could, we could go hours on this. On this topic. I don't regret where we opened this because I think the manager, like the manager stuff was incredibly practical and I think there's a lot of takeaways. I could talk hours about aviation.
- [52:14]
A
I could too.
- [52:15]
B
Does it. When you. When you think about process is. And I agree with you, like when you. As soon as you were going into. And it's the number one neglected. All I thought about was at Hunt a killer every time. So Margaret Dixon was our EOS implementer and every time she is great.
- [52:30]
A
She's a good friend of mine.
- [52:32]
B
She's amazing. Every time we showed up on her doorstep and, and we had to go through the issues list, like, did you get your processes done this quarter? Every time. How important do you think processes? Like, I mean, the question really is, like, do you think it's the most neglected? Do you think it's the most important?
- [52:48]
A
No, I don't think it's the most important, but I think it's. It's much more important than the attention we give to it. And here's, here's where I would say sometimes it's not clear to those of us inside the business, running the business issues that we have. It's not a clear cut that it's process a Process issue. But I would say that process is really critical. It's a direct correlation with how big your vision is. If you're saying, look, we have potential to grow fast, you better get process a higher respect. Because what's going to happen is you're going to grow fast and you're going to have all kinds of pains and you're going to fall apart pretty quickly because you didn't get process. The thing about process is it's boring for the visionary. And that's a problem for those if the visionary is in the front seat. And I get that because I've got visionary tendencies. And so I, you know, I, I, my assistant would tell you that I'm not great at consistency on process, but what I do know is in the things that are most important, and as we follow them, we get results. So it's sort of like this aviation thing. The only reason I think it's 99.9% is because the pain's too high. If it's not, you know, you just can't afford to crash airplanes. But the pain is typically not that evident in our businesses. We get by. But if you're growing and you want to be profitable, you know, I always say process, the gold is inside the process. That's where the money is. So if you're like, I feel like we should be more profitable, well, then, well, you probably should be. And where are you losing profit because of your inconsistencies? That's, that's where process pays off. So if one can get motivated by the results of process, they may be more motivated to implement it when it feels boring.
- [54:52]
B
Think about the outcome. Think about the outcome. That, that would be, that would, that's, that's me. Last, last two questions. Number one, you're an EOS implementer. You have a management program as well, which I love. What do you look for in clients? Either from size, geography, like, what's a great client to you?
- [55:11]
A
Yeah, well, so geography now is more. And, you know, I'm in Florida and Virginia, but being more in Florida. So geography is more, you know, wanted clients in Florida. The biggest thing for me is mindset and a degree of openness. I want people who want to be coached, not meaning that I have to take this position as coach. But they recognize the value of being open to being better. And they're not, they're not focused on being right. They're focused on wanting to actually create and create value. I love that. So it doesn't matter what industry they're in, it doesn't matter what size they're in, that they are. It matters about what they want and why they want it and their openness to being vulnerable and growing. I mean, it's one of those things we actually, that's part of what EOS set out is. That's part of the psychographics. And I so agree with that because those are the clients I love working with. We can be human, we can be not perfect. You know, as implementers, we're far from perfect, but we're there to help and that's where we get our value. And I learned a long time ago we are in really a cool position because we can be fired and it will not be devastating, like it won't end us. Whereas someone inside the company, depending on the culture, it's a big deal. If you push and you feel like you're vulnerable to the point where someone's like, I don't want to work with you anymore and I'm going to find a way to not have you on our team anymore. That's scary and that's vulnerable. As an implementer, we really have great position where we can be 100% there doing what we know is best for the company or we believe is best for the company. We can have the hard conversations and push. And if, for whatever reason, and this is typically might happen, if, if someone's not open and don't, don't have the mindset of growth and push back and say, who are you to tell me that? Or are you to put that in front of me? It's okay, we can be fired and I'll live another day. So that's what I look for in my clients, not to be fired. I don't want to leave that. I don't want to leave that.
- [57:27]
B
I.
- [57:27]
A
Look, don't take that as. Don't take that clip. That's going to screw me up.
- [57:34]
B
That's good. That's going to be the Riverside clip that they. It's like, here's the great snippet.
- [57:39]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [57:40]
B
Someone just listened to this whole thing and they love your background, your aviation, they love your management philosophy. How can they get ahold of you?
- [57:49]
A
It's easy. Just go to bluecore leadership.com and that's where we have all of what I've just talked about. Our mid managers program is now we're, we're finishing Beta, but we have some stuff up there. We're gonna have more up there. Leadership lessons from the cockpit. Would love for you to just, you know, join on that. I offhand don't have the YouTube, but you can get it all from the website. You can join from the website and then that's just a monthly. And that's fun because I essentially, I'm just talking to everybody from the cockpit and I've had some entrepreneurs and the cockpit. So where are you? Because maybe somehow we can rendezvous and you can be in the cockpit doing a leadership lesson from the cockpit with me.
- [58:36]
B
I would love that. Right Now I'm in LA, but I'm in Tampa either. Tampa, St. Pete. My dad lives in St. Pete Beach. So I'm in St. Pete like once a quarter right now.
- [58:45]
A
All right, so maybe what we have to do is set our sights on you joining me in the cirrus for a leadership lesson from the cockpit. Wouldn't that be fun?
- [58:55]
B
That would be a blast. And by the way, we just changed our. We used to do our quarterlies in Baltimore. We're doing our quarterlies in St. Pete now. So I'm destined to be down there.
- [59:05]
A
Okay. Now this makes it, this makes it like a no brainer.
- [59:08]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:09]
A
I love it and I would have so much fun with you in the cockpit and maybe it will give you more motivation to say screw it. I'm going to find a way to just go and get this pilot's license. And I have one client that I took in the cockpit who is just about. He got, he said he got inspired. He just loved the fact that I love David so much. Next month he is going first check ride. So it's contagious.
- [59:37]
B
Yes. Did you get Gabe into flying or did you two already have.
- [59:41]
A
It's interesting. So no, I didn't get Gabe into flying, but Gabe and I up until recently, because he just got a new cirrus. He and I, we met and then we realized that we had Both had an SR22. And then at one point only pilots talk like this. Like, well, what's your serial number? Like do you ask anybody what their serial numbers? So we knew our serial numbers. His serial number was one away from mine, so mine was one in the assembly line ahead of his. So this was ironic. So it's a G2. He's now upgraded to a G6. I'm still in my G2, but I just keep on putting money into it, which is fine. But yeah. And so, so Gabe has been flying for quite a while as well. Our just our paths met and really it met and frankly, you know, as we evolved together, I got him excited about eos and then next thing you know, he's an EOS implementer got him in it, and he is just kicking out of the ballpark, so. But he and I independently fly, and it's one of our passions. He's got the Smokehouse Pilots Club, and it's just. Just. It's really good stuff.
- [60:46]
B
That's awesome. An SR22. It's a. That's a beautiful plane.
- [60:50]
A
I love it.
- [60:50]
B
My goal is a G650. I'm still maybe 20 years away from that, but. But we'll. We'll start with an SR22. I love it.
- [60:58]
A
Yeah.
- [60:58]
B
Randall, thank you so much for taking the time to come on, share your wisdom like this. This was a really tactical podcast. Like, we got into the nitty gritty.
- [61:06]
A
I'm.
- [61:06]
B
I'm actually going to share this recording with my team immediately because I think there was just so much, much good information. But I appreciate you taking the time to come on.
- [61:13]
A
I enjoyed it. You know, you're. You're so easy to talk to and that. I mean, we're really just having a great conversation. So thank you. I really enjoyed this. And, you know, you want to talk more aviation, we can do it off air.
- [61:25]
B
That's right. I'm going to hit stop now, and then we're going to talk more.
- [61:27]
A
Okay, that sounds good to me.
- [61:29]
B
Thanks, Randall.