← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E45 | From Zero Traction to Double the Clients in 4 Months with Justin Mink
00:54:50
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- [00:00]
A
I'll sit on my patio and make calls, and if somebody answers and I don't want to talk to them, I'll say, hey, Ryan, can't talk right now. And then we both laugh because what the hell, you're calling me. But I've learned when somebody cross your mind, just pick up the phone. Why don't we schedule a call when we both have time to relax into it? And how about we talk later this week or next week?
- [00:27]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. You might be the actual first person that I've interviewed when I went to your LinkedIn and was looking at experiences you have. You have 19 experiences. Like, I, I was going through and, like, taking notes. That's like, you've done a lot of things.
- [00:54]
A
I didn't even realize it's that, like, I don't know if that's good or bad, like, you know, varied or, you know, distracted. I don't know. You be the judge.
- [01:05]
B
I think it's good thing. I think it shows that you've done accomplished and probably, probably seen a lot of things which, which we both know, like, that's where, that's where the magic happens. I, I did note that it looks like you're. And if it's correct, your very first job was a recruiter. You didn't stay very long. And I'm like, I make fun of recruiters a lot. And I'm assuming you won't take any offense to that.
- [01:29]
A
None whatsoever. That was a lifetime ago. And I actually work with some staffing firms today who I respect and love dearly, so I won't take offense on my or their behalf.
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B
There we go. But you're allowed to make the jokes
- [01:45]
A
because you're in the industry, so fire away.
- [01:48]
B
You started in recruiting and the staffing industry, and then from there it looked like it was really all about kind of sales and marketing.
- [01:57]
A
That's right, yeah. Yeah. I didn't really know what I wanted to do coming out of school. I was a poli sci major, so I, you know, I had the ability to think deep analytical thoughts about being unemployed, and I decided not to. I took my LSATs and was ready to go to law school and then realized my mom wanted me to go to law school, but me, not so much. So, yeah, I poked around Europe with a backpack by myself for a few months and then said this recruiting thing looks a little interesting. And then just kind of had a roommate who was in sales at this age, Internet, you know, business to business, high speed bandwidth company. And that was my entree into sales and did really well. And the rest is history.
- [02:50]
B
Got it. And were you like a natural out of the gate? Was it one of these things you like stepped into the role and you're like, oh, I can sell. Did you know like growing up that you were a good seller? Or is this something where it was like you got your shot and you took it?
- [03:04]
A
Well, you know, looking back, you don't really think about these things as a kid. But you know, I was like flipping blow pops in the halls of my junior high for a quarter of pop and knocking on doors when during snowstorms to shovel driveways. And I just have a motor, you know, I've got a motor and always been pretty good at relation, just talking to people. And I like the fact that sales is so tangible and measurable and you just know if you're succeeding or not and you have benchmarks. I like the money, frankly. And so yeah, it was just, it was a natural fit and it was fun, you know, I was having a good time doing it. Even though in those early days making 100 cold calls a day, even that was kind of fun. So yeah, I enjoyed it.
- [03:53]
B
I definitely want to come back to the cold calls because I think that's. That tends to be like an underrated kind of tactic nowadays. But one comment and then we'll talk about your Europe trip real quick. The. The comment is this you. Our backgrounds are pretty similar, so it sounds like you were doing blow pops. I was doing creepy crawlers. So I would be flipping creepy crawlers for 10 cents if I had them already in stock. Creepy crawlers was that Easy Bake Oven for boys where you had these plasticky rubbery creatures that you put into the easy Bake oven, pull them out, they were in the. Okay, anyhow, a shovel and snow mowing grass, like you name it. Yeah, when you went to Europe. And the reason I think this is interesting, I read a book and some of the advice that the gentleman received from his father. And I believe the book, I think the book is the last lecture and I believe what his father told him as he was growing up. And he was a NASA guy, a Disney imagineer, MIT professor. And the last lecture was literally he was dying from cancer. And so he was given this last lecture. He's got a book on it. And he talked about when he was growing up, one of the things that his father told him to do was like, just take a year off of school and go, go, like truly define what you want to do. Because if you take that time and you, you create that space, like you'll start by at least heading down the right heading. It might not be like the perfect path and you're still going to zigzag, but you'll at least have a North Star.
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A
Yeah.
- [05:27]
B
Was there like when you went to Europe and you were trying to kind of think through things, like, was there intentionality behind that or was it like, let's go party, you know, between, between gigs?
- [05:38]
A
It was a little bit of both. I mean, my mom. It's funny that you mentioned the last lecture. My mom really pushed me to go on that trip and I was kind of on the fence because I'm, you know, you're a young kid and it's the summer and you're just, you know, it's work to schedule. It's a little intimidating. And she really pushed me and I'm so glad she did because, you know, we live in a bubble, especially in this country. Right. We're surrounded by ourselves. And having that experience really broadened my horizons and met people from all over the world and realized there's just not one way to do anything. Whether it's professionally or just personally finding happiness. There's a thousand different paths you can choose that need to be authentic to who you are, not what anyone expects or wants from you. And so, yeah, it was a really eye widening formative experience.
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B
Did you learn things about sales or how to connect with people as a part of that trip?
- [06:39]
A
Maybe not consciously, but definitely I realized how easy it is to carve out relationships if you're genuinely interested, open. And when you're around other people who vibrate on that same frequency. You know, you're staying at youth hostels and you know, my strategy for making friends was to walk into the hostel in Paris with a bottle of five dollar wine, open it up at the bar and go, who wants a glass? You know, and it's not different in any walk of life if you come into an environment open and whether it's a conference or networking event or anything really, I mean, it's the same human psychology applies across any endeavor. So yeah, it kind of gave me a little confidence and courage.
- [07:29]
B
I'd have to say I'm pushing my son to. He has this big interest in Japan and I'm trying to push him to like go Because I agree with you. I didn't get out of the. I barely got out of Maryland for like the first 18 years of my life and then joined the Navy and started to travel a little bit in the early days with the Navy. But it just opens up your aperture to like, what's possible, what exists, different cultures, different purpose. So anyhow, I love that when you think about going to the cold call side, I feel like this is a very underrated tactic today. And I realize you're also an outgrow advisor. So there's probably a lot of other magic that comes along with this with you when you're talking to a company. Like, what's your view or your perspective on cold calls after coming out and doing hundreds of them a day? Probably getting 99 no's before you can even get someone to have a conversation with you.
- [08:30]
A
I don't so much have a perspective on cold calls as I do a very strong stance or perspective on picking up the phone, which is a big part of outgrow. It's a secret weapon today because it is so singular and I think so many companies live in a very reactive state where they're just constantly playing defense and jumping through hoops, putting out fires, solving problems and leaning on technology. Automation, drip, social media, all the different channels that we can use that feel safer. Because at the end of the day, people don't pick up the phone. We're not proactive because there's a real sense of danger, fear of rejection, fear of interrupting, fear of bothering. And the phone, especially when you call your existing customers and prospects, when nothing is wrong between transactions and you're just genuinely interested and curious and have a desire to help. It's the most powerful way to set yourself apart from competition and to grow.
- [09:43]
B
When you say, pick up the phone, what type of conversation? Let's say it's a previous client. Because whenever someone like a vendor or somebody calls me, immediately I'm like, I'm looking at it as some sort of sales call. And how do you break down that barrier to. To get to that? Like, I'm truly here to help. Like, this is authenticity. Like, let's say it's a client that you had worked with, they have gone away and now you're just kind of calling people up and just seeing how they're doing. Like, how do you bring down that barrier of like, this isn't the sales call?
- [10:19]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, first it's an internal mindset shift, right? You know, having the confidence that if you're talking to the Right people and you're offering them right kind of help that it truly is in their best interest to allow you to help them. And that rejection becomes less of a I'm not going to make my quota or it's some kind of indictment on my character and who I am as a human being. And to wow. I feel bad for them because they're missing an opportunity for me to, to add value, make an impact. So that mindset, work internally is the foundation upon which we can then be bold and make those kind of calls. And then when we do pick up the phone and have that conversation, remove the agenda. It's just, it's very Taoist in a way. It's like having no outcome where you're trying to steer that call and just being curious and present interested and asking what else your former client in this case is working on. What projects do they have coming up? We used to help you. I'd love to be able to help you again. What can I help you with? Not is there anything else? Is there anything I can do for it? Because you're going to get a no or yes, but what can I help you with? That opens up them to think and usually they'll tell you and if they say nothing, you can say, well, why we used to help you guys. What happened? Is there something we can do better? So if you're just curious, it'll lead itself to an outcome that is desirable, but you have to remove yourself from the attachment to that outcome.
- [12:08]
B
How often should you be calling people? Is this a. When you think about the scorecard, for instance, are teams talking about this or should they be talking about this on a weekly basis and like measuring how many, how many calls they made?
- [12:23]
A
Yeah, I mean it's important to celebrate the effort because that's the leading indicator. You know, so often we are, we're almost hype, we're. We are hyper focused on the outcome, the results, and of course that's important, but at the end of the day, you and your team can't control whether a client says yes or no. That's ultimately in their hands. But what you have 100% control over and what people can be held 100% accountable for are the behaviors, the actions which are the leading indicators. And ultimately, if we communicate more proactively with a spirit of positivity and confidence and optimism and enthusiasm and wanting to help, when we make those at outreach, revenue just will get pulled up along by the law of physics. Yeah, so. And unfortunately we live in a reactive state all day, every Day for the most part. And when we're reactive are literally proactivity and reactivity. We use different parts of our brain. So we have to be really intentional and give attention to proactivity and make time for it in order to carve out the space to actually go out and swing the bat proactively. So yeah, I think teams should carve out time for it, be intentional and celebrate, measure the effort, because that raises the bar for everybody to then be more active if that's what we know we're being evaluated upon.
- [13:51]
B
When you're thinking about like the rollout of this, if you've got a sales team, is there, is there training? Is this something you train your sales team to do or is this something where, you know, it's like open ended questions and like agenda lists and make 10 of these calls every single week.
- [14:09]
A
The only way to screw up, proactive outreach. And whenever I say proactive, I mean calling somebody, you have a relationship when nothing is wrong, when there's no problem to solve in between transactions, the only way to screw it up is to not do it. And so, and I think the problem with a lot of sales training, and there are a lot, don't get me wrong, lots of great sales programs out there and lots of awesome valuable trainings. But the problem with a training in and of itself is the half life of enthusiasm is short. And so people will leave that training with their pants on fire. And you know, you'll have a bounce for a few days, maybe a few weeks, but then inevitably the water goes right back to where it's always flowed because habit change is really hard and repetition is the mother of learning and change. So when we talk about, when we think about outgrow, it's more about doing, not training. Like a cadence, a rhythm, orchestrating actions every week, talking about it, looking at it, and like installing a game plan every week, having people go execute it, measuring, seeing what works. So it's, it's a cadence. And ultimately when you give it enough attention, habit change starts to then cement. But it takes time. Takes time. Like anything else, growth is just uncomfortable. Doing things differently is not comfortable by definition.
- [15:34]
B
Almost like for companies that are hyper focused on like a partner channel, for instance, like, like companies that, that do kind of less outbound and, and less kind of sales and marketing with their ICPs and like really go out and focus on a partner channel. Are these principles that you would, you would recommend also for that type of strategy or like no, you've got clients, you had clients like this, this Program this strategy. These tactics are really set up for the people that you've either delivered value to or you're continuing to deliver value to it.
- [16:14]
A
This works for any type of business. Doesn't matter what industry, what channel where, where. Proactive communication could benefit your business, help you build and cement more trusted relationships, help you stay top of mind with your stakeholders. You know, it's funny, I had a conversation with someone who was like, oh, this wouldn't work for a plumber. I've got an EOS client who's a plumber, they're big business. But I don't think alcrow worked for plumbing. I was like, funny you say I use a story about plumbers with my outgrow clients to illustrate the point. Because every eight I live in a 60 year old home, every 18 months or so the toilet breaks or something goes wrong with our plumbing. And I asked my wife, who was that last guy we used that we really like? And she's like, I don't know. And so inevitably I go back to Google and start all over again because I look through my phone and type in plumber and I have 15 plumbers. Bob Plummer, Joe Plummer, Jim Plummer. And if one of those guys had called me every 90 days and said, hey, Mr. Mick, how you doing? I was just in your neighborhood servicing a neighbor of yours, thinking of you. Do you know we winterize homes and even if I didn't have business form at that moment, I would remember because it's so singular, nobody does it, so it could benefit anybody where you have relationships with stakeholders.
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B
Interesting. And you also said, you said, did you know? Is that another tactic from the program?
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A
Yeah, a did you know Question is where you fire all the different ways you can help a customer. And so many of so many businesses offer multiple services and oftentimes the client or customer has no idea. Like there's a client of mine that does home remodeling. And they're like, nothing ticks us off more than when we're doing somebody's kitchen and we see another crew there doing their windows and we do windows. I'm like, you got to tell them, save them. Give them one throat to choke. Save them from doing work with the guys who aren't as good as you are. But you got to tell them, nobody wants to have to deal with multiple vendors or suppliers or partners, especially if they like you. But you got to tell them. So, yeah, that's the did you know? Here's how else I can help you, Mr. Customer.
- [18:38]
B
Is there an Order like, you know, like the first, the first five minutes of this call. Hello. How you doing? Did you know? Not did you know? But those things. And then like, what can I help you with? And then did you know, once you. Is there an order to this?
- [18:55]
A
Yeah, it's a bit of an art and a science. I mean, there's some things that we want to make sure that we keep in front of, of. Of the sales team or the customer, CX team or whoever's engaging the customer just to remind them of the. Not even the sequence, just the kind of like the direction we want to take some of these calls. Like the reverse. Did you know? Asking for referrals.
- [19:20]
B
Right.
- [19:20]
A
We know it's a great way to generate business, but yet we're not intentional about asking. And I think again, nobody wants to be pushy. But when we have it up, who else at the company in another division can we help? Like in the same way we help you or who else outside? Who else do you know in your family? I work with a painting company. What are the neighbors, friends, colleagues, family members? Can we help? Like, we've helped you. And then we keep in front of them the pivot because so many, so many of those conversations, like, we do so much work to get the ball to the one yard line and then we walk off the field because we don't ask. So we always make sure that we're getting a commitment to go to the next step of the conversation, the next step of the sale, or to close the sale. So we just kind of keep this in front and then they can play jazz with it. Right. Once they start to internalize it.
- [20:15]
B
Got it, got it, got it. It sounds jbs. Jonathan B. Smith. He always talks about this idea of listening and these skills and mirroring and all these other things. And he's like, it's all atrophy. So if you do not practice this every day in some capacity, like, you will lose it. It sounds the same thing where it's like you just gotta do it and stick with it. And then eventually it sounds like it'll just kind of show itself and then you're there.
- [20:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, I know the JBS approach well. I'm in his cohort within the EOS community and he's 100% right. It takes constant intention, but then once you start doing it enough, it starts showing up. I was with a client who's both EOS and outgrow. So we did an EOS session. We had an Outgrow workshop the next day, and we Went to dinner together and we ordered our appetite. Beautiful restaurant in Philadelphia. Ordered our appetizers, got finished eating and the waitress, we were at the bar, the server said we ordered our entrees. And she said, hey, you guys are both doing protein forward stuff. You should get a vegetable. The charred cabbage. Go great with your meals. And we were like, yeah, throw on the cabbage. And then, and then he's like, she just outgrowed us, right? So like she just. Did you note us. So it's like you start to get tuned into it and then it starts to become, hey, this is just how we talk to customers. We're just, these are the kind of questions we ask. This is how we communicate. But it takes a while to get there.
- [21:45]
B
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service, we do not charge commission, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements, and we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired. Okay, this, I want to get us back to the bouncer entrepreneurship as well, because like not only, not only were you into the recruiting and then, and then you had this pretty long run in, in the sales and marketing, but also there was an event company and then eventually a pretty substantial company. So as you're kind of navigating your professional career as it relates to, I don't want to say corporate, but like, you know, the corporate side, it sounds like it was kind of like dual track because there was also this like entrepreneurial Shoot off.
- [23:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to describe it I think. Like, you know, I was an early employee at this digital marketing company that was doing some really groundbreaking stuff for applying technology to running pay per click campaigns primarily on Google. And it was just a rocket ship ride. And so I got in when the company was very entrepreneurial, I mean like employee 100 ish and helped take the company to operating in 15 countries and I don't know, 80 offices, doing a billion dollar market cap, publicly traded. And so that was just like, it was so fun. So fun. So that really gave me the sort of entrepreneurial bug to want to do that. But even at earlier stages myself after that six and a half year run at that business.
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B
And was it everything you thought it would be like coming from a company where your employee 100 and it sounds like you were very entrepreneurial. So it's like the company's entrepreneurial, you're entrepreneurial, it's a beautiful match because that just means you get to go in and solve whatever problems like, oh, this is a big problem, I'm going to go solve this. And you go from that. And now did the event company come before or after that?
- [25:00]
A
That was before. Yeah, that was like, that was when I was a 20 something, you know, working full time at a Fortune 100 company and then doing my own little event business on the weekends, making more money, not sleeping, that's for sure, but making more money, you know, Friday and Saturday than I did Monday through Friday. So yeah, that was, that was cool. But you know, that was like a little solopreneur thing that was like the digital marketing was like my first company with teammates and infrastructure and scale and so yeah, that was my first real swing of the bat in that arena. But I think where you were going with that is what I didn't realize is when you start it yourself and it's even earlier stage and you don't have product market fit yet, you're not sure what you're doing, you're not sure what you're selling or who you're selling it to. I didn't realize the stress and chaos and sacrifices you got to make when you're, when you're at that stage in an entrepreneurial company and when you're in that seat as a founder.
- [26:05]
B
Yeah, there's many phases of business but I would say like in a startup world there are like two core phases and there is pre product market fit and post product market fit and both look incredibly different. I often argue that like finding product Market fit is the hardest thing that a company can ever do because even, even post product market fit, like then you have a real company and so your problems become, you need an operating system. So I have like two, two gospels. The first is the lean startup. And that's like when I'm in an endeavor and I'm trying to find product market fit as fast as humanly possible. Because I don't, I don't care about like weekly metrics or this or that. Like, what I care about is like the organization has to find clients and we have to find some sort of product or service in which like they're going to continue to pay for. And, and then once you have that, then it's all about the framework. So my second like gospel is, is traction. So it's like both are for two different phases of the company. What, what kind of tactics, what kind of tactics like have you used in the past to like find product market
- [27:08]
A
fit well in this. So I co founded a company with, with one of the guys who was the founder and president of that other company. We left around the same time and sat down at a park and he had this seed of an idea around how musicians at the regional level who have these voracious fan bases who feel very emotionally attached to that artist but doesn't have a national audience, how instead of a brand sponsoring a big A lister at the super bowl, if you take that same amount of money, disperse it to 50 regional artists, get them exposure on FM radio and platforms and use data to understand the psychographics, demographics, behaviors, values of the artist's audience. Pair that with the brand. You'll get this affinity to the brand that is like unmatched because of that emotional tie. And the brand is providing a platform for the artist to get more exposure. And so we really went into that business with a very artist centric approach and quickly realized that it was like really needed like it was a chicken and egg thing, but we needed the critical mass of artists. We'd have to pay them a dime. They just would get the exposure from being attached to a ford or a Dr. Pepper or Anheuser Busch. But we didn't have any idea what it was. It was a new category, kind of. This is 2013, mind you. So Spotify, like to make a buy on Spotify was like an Excel spreadsheet. No kidding. And that's like the metrics we got on an Excel spreadsheet, maybe a CSV Wild. And so it was just blunt force, man, blunt force. Just like talking to everybody. They didn't know how to buy from us. Who to buy is it sponsorship, is it media? We don't know. So I mean a lot of trial and error and a lot of stressful days to like figure out who we were, what we were, who, who would buy from us, what the value prop was. It was an, you know, it was a solution without a problem for a little while. But you know, the team figured it out over time. But blunt force to long answer to your, to your short question, what was
- [29:30]
B
key like the aha moment because I agree with you like chicken and egg and market and which side are you on? Are you supporting the artist? You supporting the sponsors? Like there' lot going on in that type of business. Like where, at what point did. It was like that aha moment when
- [29:46]
A
we realized the brands had the pockets and we needed to appeal to them. And so that was an inflection point because we're, we're a for profit company and as, as noble as the cause was from an artist perspective, we needed to position more for the brands and the artists would come. And then the other was we were kind of exploring regional versus national buys and we kind of bifurcated the business going up after the regional and the national and the regional. We found that's where the buys were happening. The regional Jack Daniels guy in the Southeast had a regional budget and could bring us in and then we could grow nationally from that entry point. Unfortunately, I was the guy going after the national stuff, the national accounts. And so a lot of beating my head against the wall during that phase when we didn't know what we didn't know and we were just trying to a B test the approach.
- [30:43]
B
What. Just curious about the actual product. In what capacities could brands or can brands. Because this company's still around. So in what capacity can brands sponsor the artists? Like does that mean the artist is talking about it? Does that mean like the brand's kind of following around the artist on different things and, and scooping up the cookies and then digital cookies? Not, not actually like cookie Monster, like running around and like and then following them around the Internet and being able to advertise. So like where, where, where did that
- [31:21]
A
sponsorship kind of activate the business is now as a 12 year old company. There's a lot more to it than when we started. But ultimately the path that gained traction was use data, find artists that align with the brand and who they want to reach, pair them together and activate that partnership where the music is not behind a commercial, but the music is front and center. Brought to you by said brand and then put it all over make media buys across all these channels, including the FM radio which was like the, the smallest part of the buy but the most from a mindset, from like a perception perspective, the most valuable for an artist because they were literally getting their music spotlighted. Like a minute of music brought to you by XYZ brand on the most popular top 40 radio station or Hispanic music station in Dallas Fort Worth. And then create videos about how the artist grew up driving a Ford and what it means. And then do a live activation as exclusive event for the fans who enter on the the website and you know, be branded and a concert where more content and footage would be created. So that's really, that was the early goings. That's still kind of the heart of what the company does along with lots of other things. At this point I'm not a part of that team full time any longer, but you know, still will always be kind of my baby. So.
- [32:48]
B
Yeah, what's that? Did the business, did the business operate on a framework or something to like pull all of the pieces together? Something like eos?
- [32:56]
A
Yeah. We had a team of developers who created a data platform that would scrape millions of artists across all the different places we can API and pull data to learn about their audience and fans. And then the art, then the brand could go to a page and write like I'm looking for 21 to 34 year old, you know, Hispanic women who like, who do have this attribute, blah blah, blah in this market. And the engine would spit out the artists that most closely aligned with those goals.
- [33:23]
B
Interesting. Did you guys run on Eos just out of curiosity?
- [33:27]
A
We did not.
- [33:29]
B
Did I?
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A
I didn't know about EOS at the time. I sure wish I did or had.
- [33:33]
B
Yeah, it saved a lot of headaches.
- [33:36]
A
It would have for sure.
- [33:38]
B
It sounds like a hypergrowth company. Assuming you, you guys raised a little bit of money on this. So probably venture backed and a moonshot. Why leave?
- [33:49]
A
I got real sick. I got mono, Epstein Barr and every day was life or death for a little while. And I was working a lot managing that stress and probably the ways that were not super healthy. Maybe a few too many glasses of wine or beer a night as numbing agent and I got sick. I mean I really, I couldn't even physically hack it anymore. So I kind of backed out. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a part of my EOS journey. I got back into enterprise sales. So I kind of thought that at the time, entrepreneurship, that kind of startup environment Meant just chaos and stress and sacrificing time and time for any other interests you might have. I was engaged at the time too, so that was a big part of the decision matrix. I wanted to have time for the love of my life and pouring into the relationship, not sacrificing that. So yeah, eos I discovered many years later it kind of influenced me, encouraged me, gave me the, I felt like it gave me some arrows to put my quiver that would arm me to get back into an entrepreneurial venture. And so that was the start of eos, inspired me to get back into that kind of business and that kind of role in the business. Yeah, I never run eos. Just traction resonated deeply. So yeah, that's coming out of that health crisis is definitely a big part of my EOS story.
- [35:30]
B
Do you think you ever go back meaning like, you know, you talk about the, the quivers and, and like the. What you're building, what you know now, the knowledge you gained now as an EOS implementer, like is a part of this path, like to go back into some sort of form of entrepreneurship, obviously eos and, and this is. But building a brand, building an agency, something like that. Or have you found it?
- [35:59]
A
I never want to say never. I mean I've been an EOS implementer now for four years and in the six months before that ran EOS at a company where I was the head of revenue. And so it's almost been a five year EOS journey at this point. And I think I'm better equipped to be in a real leadership position, position at a, at a fast growth entrepreneurial company than I've ever been before. I don't know if I want to do that. I'm a, I'm a flaming visionary. For those who know Colby, I'm a 339 4, managing people, being responsible for people, it's like not, not something that I really enjoy. So. But I, you know, if the right, the right. If I was excited enough about the company and I could define my seat and the accountability chart with enough clarity that I could stay in my zone of genius. Yeah, I'd entertain it, I think. But I'm loving what I'm doing right now. I absolutely, like nothing's been more fulfilling than the work I do as an implementer and as an outgrow advisor. And I don't see any changes coming up in that way in the foreseeable future. This is all, it's the most fun I've ever had.
- [37:15]
B
So both of us were selling things for 10 to 25 cents in elementary school, mowing lawns and shoveling snow, doing all those things. And then also I just found out that we're pretty close on the Colby as well. So I'm a 329 5. And so it's like, I mean, you know, the issues that we deal with, like, we're just constantly, we're constantly going. And I've developed a bit of self awareness over the last like 10 to 15 years. And, and I talked to my, my co founder about this all the time. Like, I am a terrible manager. Terrible manager. Like, from a leadership standpoint, like, can I get, can I get other humans excited about something that I believe in and a path that we're going down all day, every day. Can I manage the day to day tasks, like in the most efficient manner? No, I can't. And it's a struggle. It's a struggle.
- [38:13]
A
You might know him. I hope he doesn't mind my mentioning his name. I'm only saying it in the best possible light. There's an implementer in the community, an expert, and he's just an amazing dude named Leonard Linsky who is a visionary. I think he's like one of our kissing cousins in the Colby department too. And so we always get each other right. And Leonard gave a talk recently and I love what he said. He said, as a visionary, it's not that you can't do the integrator job, it's just that it's not really you. He's like, I said, Leonard owned and sold a successful pharmacy company. And he said, when I was trying to be that guy, I could fill more prescriptions in a day than anybody else. I just screwed up only 20% of them. I'm like, that sums it up right there as far as the speed at which people like us move, but how we sometimes don't do it as thoroughly or detail oriented as some things might need. So self recognition has been a big part of this journey, that's for sure.
- [39:19]
B
And how about health? It sounds like going through the entrepreneurship thing and, and like things were, things got hairy. It's not like, for, for a minute. And now that, like, are you, are you through at this point? And you are. You found it? Yeah.
- [39:35]
A
I mean, I was at the Mayo clinic for two weeks in 2020.
- [39:38]
B
Like, wow.
- [39:39]
A
Trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with me and which they couldn't. And I would say probably the last year I have been as healthy physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually as I've been in my whole life. Like it's been a. Like, I'm so grateful. Going through that experience gives you an appreciation of what you have. Right. And also being able to purpose that kind of suffering and using it to help other people. Because you can see it now. I can see it when other people are struggling and it's a real purpose for me to help them get through it and not tell them what they should do, but just show that I understand and share my experience. And yeah, I'm grateful for all of it, but I'm doing better than I ever have.
- [40:28]
B
When you think about some. I talk to a lot of implementers and a lot of times, especially the ones that are getting started, like they're looking for different tactics and tricks to build their book and to really start making an impact. Have you noticed from the outgrow, because you're an outgrow advisor, which means you go to companies and you help them, you help them with this has Outgrow and the methodologies there also helped you grow, build your practice 100%.
- [41:01]
A
Yeah. That's what inspired me to become an advisor. I was in a cohort of EOS implementers using outgrow to grow our own practice. And you know my background in sales now I've used every methodology framework in the book and outgrow. I'd been an AOS implementer for a couple years at that point and in four months of using outgrow to grow my own EOS practice, I doubled my client count. So, yeah. Wow. And now it's just a discipline for me. Every, every day, three calls, proactive calls like clockwork. My assistant plugs them into my calendar. She the name, the link to their CRM contact removes all emotion or judgment from the table and I just, I call them no matter what. And three a day is all it takes, man. Takes five minutes. And my. I'll never have to worry about a slow pipeline ever again.
- [42:00]
B
Interesting. That. That is gold. Like that's. I'm gonna. As soon as we, as soon as we wrap this up, I'm going to make a LinkedIn post for this and reshare the recording the three calls a day and having assistant. Where. Where does your assistant find the phone numbers? Are you just going through your CRM and.
- [42:19]
A
Yeah, I've got, I use HubSpot and you know, I've got all the deal stages and thousands and thousands of contacts and she just, you know, I tell her like try to just randomly plot people in there so for me and like I'll call a guy who not only would I Never have called, but I never would have thought of again because he was, he emailed me after I did a webinar two years ago and next thing you know, we're in a conversation where like he, we, we have a meeting scheduled to talk Eos or outgrow. Like that stuff happens now weekly. And it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for Outgrow in my life. Yeah. Huh.
- [42:52]
B
Huh. That's, that's interesting. Anything else like that? Is that. I mean, I guess we talked about the framework, we talked about the conversation. It sounds like it's just discipline. Discipline. Sticking to the plan and doing it day in and day out until it becomes second nature.
- [43:07]
A
Oh. Even when I do an EOS session so you know, it's a full day or I come home, I'm smoked. I'll sit on my patio and make the calls and if somebody answers and I don't want to talk to them, I'll say, hey, Ryan, can't talk right now. And then we both laugh because what the hell, you're calling me. But I've learned when somebody cross your mind, just pick up the phone. Why don't we schedule a call when we both have time to relax into it and how about we talk later this week or next week? So that stuff is even that people. No one's bothered. Right. How could you not be? Feel good when someone said, I was thinking of you and I wanted to call you and you're not expecting it, just to see how you're doing, what you're working on. So it's a discipline now. Yeah, I love that.
- [43:55]
B
I'm actually, I'm going to implement that as soon, as soon as we.
- [43:58]
A
Good man. Tell me how it goes. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool.
- [44:02]
B
I, and I mean, you're right. The, the page, it was like, what did you say? You're like, you know, people don't ever. It was something like people don't ever pick up the phone and like, like acquire less clients. Like that just doesn't, that just doesn't happen. You don't have more conversations and have like less, less traction. So it's spot on.
- [44:23]
A
Yeah.
- [44:23]
B
What. When you, when you look at, at Eos and the things that you've been doing in the US and there are companies out there that, that are self implementing. There's companies are eos curious. Like when you see a company for the first time, generally what is the what? Not the trip up, but like what is, what is some of the hardest things as you're going through those first couple sessions for like companies to grasp companies to understand.
- [44:50]
A
Yeah, you know, we always talk about understanding healthy and smart. And so many companies, you know, will just gravitate towards smart, which is better strategy, more efficiency, process structure, technology, all those things that we need to focus on because the metrics are much easier to wrap your arms around. And it's just, it feels more tangible and less personal. And the healthy organizational clarity, driving more engagement, less turnover, attracting and retaining the right kind of people because of a culture that's healthy and cohesive, that, that's harder to address right off the bat. When a team has some dysfunction that oftentimes has been metastasizing over the course of months, if not years.
- [45:41]
B
What's like, what's the first thing you work on there? So like let's say you have a company and, and you're, you're looking and, and it is not healthy and it is not cohesive. Are you like, hey, we need to jump right to the people analyzer and look at everybody in the company. Are you like, hey, we really need to look at these core values because it looks like the behaviors that I'm seeing and the words that we have written down, there's some sort of disconnect there.
- [46:06]
A
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean you gotta be careful because if you go too hard at it right off the bat, it's too much. Right. It can blow up in your face and people will just be so uncomfortable. They'll just, they check out. Right. Versus allowing it to process and metabolize in a healthy way. So I think what a good EOS implementer learns over time and with experience and having the pattern recognition of having been in those rooms enough is just creating a safe space and holding the space to allow them to address those things in a healthy way and sort of it forcing them to sit with it in a way too. Like just calling it out. Right. And saying how do we. The only way past it is through it. So how do we move through it together?
- [46:57]
B
A lot of what you said, it revolves around patience, patience from the implementer to let it sit and to not push it too hard because things blow up. How hard is that? As a nine
- [47:10]
A
man, I would say it's less patience and more about contending with our own discomfort.
- [47:16]
B
Interesting.
- [47:17]
A
Yeah. I mean that to me EOS has been a journey of professional but just as much personal development because for me it's been a real evolution in my contending with my own discomfort and my people pleasing tendencies. Go back to childhood. Right. And Realizing that the most value we can offer and the most trust we can gain is to just enter the danger, as we say, and not only, like, it takes a while to even be conscious of it than to go there despite the discomfort, till you get to a point where you just, you don't hesitate at all. It's just your instinct is to sit with that stuff, bring it out, sit with the discomfort, ask the questions to get them to confront it. But that was a personal journey for me, for sure.
- [48:15]
B
What do you look for in clients?
- [48:18]
A
I like ones that are ready to grow. I'm less concerned. Everyone's got some degree of pain, but the ones that I do best with and that do best with me are the ones that things seem okay. They're good. It's not like there's a disaster happening, but they're just ready to. They know they're at an inflection point and they need some catalyst to take them to the next level. Because those teams are, like, hungry. They lean in, they don't fight you. Right. If there's that trust off the bat, we have fun. You know, like, it's like a really. Not to be too jockish, but like a championship locker room where it's like, you know, we're going to, we're going to give each other the. I want, I want you to tell me how I can be better. And I'm gonna give you the same respect and courtesy, even if it's a little uncomfortable for me. And together we're gonna, we're gonna do some wonderful things together. So, like, for me, it's just high growth, ambitious, you know, fun and ones that don't, you know, if you have to drag them in, you have to drag them around. So I don't want to sell anybody. Like, if what I have to offer resonates, let's do it. If you, if you're trying to make me pitch you or ask me how does EOS compare with blah, blah, blah, like, go, go do blah blah blah, then that's cool. But yeah.
- [49:39]
B
Yeah. Have you had a, A team yet that's been fully intact after the first 12 months? Because you hear a lot about, like, the people analyzer and everything else and all the stuff that happens within the first year. Have you, have you made it through the first year and that the SLT is the same?
- [49:58]
A
Good question, man. Maybe once or twice.
- [50:03]
B
And out of how many?
- [50:06]
A
Well over 30 at this point. Yeah, 30 or 40. 35. Yeah.
- [50:15]
B
What's typical? What are you normally seeing? Is it people that are Resistant to eos, resistant to change. Well, I mean human nature is like we're resistant to change. Is it, is it wrong person? Like, what is it like? You know, that 80, 20.
- [50:31]
A
It's harder when it comes from the CEO or founder. That's a tougher nut to crack. It's a little easier of a transition if it's coming from members of functional leaders. But usually there are. If it's, it depends on the level of cohesion from the start. Right. Everyone's, every system's a little different but usually the ones that are obvious, those get smoked out pretty quickly. The ones that are, maybe that really do offer a lot of value but they're just, for whatever reason they're not rowing in the same direction as everybody else. And as a result it becomes like an anchor on the speed at which they can move. Those are a little harder to root out and take some time. Usually by like a year in we've got the right people in the right seats, broadly speaking, if they're really committed and, and if they're, you know, if they have some courage, which most teams do.
- [51:29]
B
When you, when you think about the ideal client, like it and are they, do you travel, do you do virtual? Like what's, are you geographically kind of in your, in your local area?
- [51:44]
A
A little. All the above, yeah. I mean I brought a network of professional relationships into EOs all over the country because of my past experience. So unlike a lot of implementers who their network is local and so they grow in their backyard. Mine, I mean, I had a client in Medellin, Colombia, which we did virtually but was a cool place to do the annual like went down to Medellin for a week. That was cool. But it's as I've been doing this longer and longer, just naturally more local opportunities and relationships have, have, have popped up, which is great because travel can be a little old at this age and with the family, you know.
- [52:22]
B
So yeah, my professor, I remember I went through, I was like Billy Madison. I went through college a little late, late in life. The Navy, the Navy put me through college and so I was like 28, had kids. But my, at that point I was like traveling all over the place, whether it was for the Navy. I was also running a company, a zombie infested 5K obstacle course race. And, and I remember my professor saying like, you know, at a certain age, travel, travel gets old. And I was like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Travel never get old. And now, now to me, travel's old and getting in a plane and sitting there for six hours is a terrible proposition.
- [52:58]
A
You know, it's funny, man. I literally. Literally minutes before you and I jumped on, I was looking at a conference in Vegas and thinking of registering and, like, having a visceral reaction. And I remember as a young guy in my 20s, like the old. The OGs going like, I gotta go to Vegas. Like, I'm being like, what? Why would you not want to go to Vegas on the company dime? And here I am now, like. Like, you know, like. Yeah, so I. Yeah, yeah. The evolution in. In life is you feel it the older you get. That's for sure.
- [53:35]
B
Okay, Justin, so someone's been listening to this and they're like, oh, my gosh, like, what? What A background. And I need some Justin Mink in my life. And. And I want to talk about Eos or I want to talk about Outgrow. How can they get ahold of you?
- [53:49]
A
Oh, boy. Look me up, Google me, Justin Mink, EOS and. Or Outgrow, and you'll see a lot. I'm on LinkedIn posting every day. Yeah, just go to LinkedIn and find me. Or just Google me and you can't miss me. Yeah. So thanks for asking.
- [54:08]
B
Sweet. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. This is the first time that we've gone that far into Outgrow and some of these tactics, but this was brilliant. There's no way people don't walk away with three or four huge nuggets that they can immediately go back to their business. So I appreciate you taking an hour coming on and letting us live stream in and. Yeah, it was great.
- [54:31]
A
Yeah, this is. I gotta say, man, this has been the most fun I've had on podcast interview in a long time, maybe ever. So. Nice job, Ryan. I really enjoyed it.
- [54:40]
B
Yeah, awesome. Thanks so much. All right, thanks.