← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E48 | The Golf Mindset That Changed the Way I Run My Business with Chris McCarty
00:59:26
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- [00:00]
A
Attitude and effort are the only things you can control. And I knew that if I worked harder than everybody else. Hard work beats talent every single day. You know, it just does because there's tons of talented people that never get anything off the ground because they take it for granted.
- [00:21]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. Chris. I am. This is, this is the first time, actually, I don't even know if there's another Eosi, but that, that has your background, but this is the first time that I've had a professional golfer on the show. So thanks for, thanks for taking the time to come on.
- [00:51]
A
Yeah, really happy to be here, man. Excited to talk to you.
- [00:54]
B
Let's talk my golfing. I like to say I'm really, really good at golf, or at least I was when I was 10 years old. And, and I like say like, I'm really, really good still for a 10 year old. And that's like my ongoing joke. And it's, it's not pretty. You made it professionally. Like, how does, how does that happen? Like, was this like, you know, your, your family teaching you growing up or, or how'd you walk into that?
- [01:21]
A
You know, it's kind of a, an odd story. So I, I grew up kind of like a little skater punk and I lived in a neighborhood with my parents, like split up when we were, when I was four. I've got two older brothers that are 10 years older than I am, so kind of followed in their footsteps. We had a six foot half pipe in our backyard.
- [01:46]
B
Love it.
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A
And my parents lived in the same neighborhood, but they were split up. And then my dad was an insurance agent. He ended up getting a lot of like in, in town there's a Sunny's food store. So it's a bunch of these like local convenience stores. And so now we're moving on up like the Jeffersons and we moved to a golf course neighborhood and my parents got back together for a little bit and the kids were jerks. I skated to my first like, golf clinic and, and I had bangs, you know, very Christian Slater, like gleaming the cube. Right? Love it. And these kids did not care for me one bit. And so they're just super mean. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna be really good at the thing you guys like and destroy you. And so I Spent the next year and a half, you know, six in the morning, waiting for the maintenance crew to finish putting in the flags behind them. Six in the morning to eight o' clock at night, seven days a week in the summer. And just got really, really good, really fast. And I was, you know, shortly thereafter nationally ranked way better than all the kids. And then obviously when you have something that they don't, then the respect comes. And they all ended up being my friends. You know, they're young and little jerks. But that's really where it kind of took. Took hold, was born out of that, that cold reception when I moved to the new neighborhood. And then my parents, you know, inevitably split again. We stayed in. My mom and I stayed in that neighborhood and we were back to kind of being lower middle class, I would suppose. And so I started mowing the driving range, working in the restaurant so I could have playing privileges. And so I had the. Had all kind of the whole spectrum of a country club experience, I guess you could say. Interesting.
- [03:49]
B
And was that, was that competitiveness, like, was that always inside you or was that your discovery of like kind of being the, the outcast or, or that specific situation? Is that like, was that your spark where you're like, oh, I've got a tiger inside?
- [04:05]
A
That's a really good question. I don't know that I've ever really thought about it. It certainly became apparent to me. And I was, man, I was insufferable. I was a jerk. I thought like from a competitive standpoint, I would be viscerally offended if you thought that you could hang with me in a golf tournament. And I would take it as a personal affront and just make sure that you didn't make that mistake again, which is great on a golf course, not so much elsewhere in your life. Right. So as I got older and I was like dating and stuff, if I was playing well, then I was insufferable or sorry, if I was playing bad, I was insufferable because I couldn't wait to go out and figure it out. And if I was, God forbid, if I was playing well, it was even worse. And so pretty seem.
- [04:53]
B
You know, my, my grandfather always used to tell me. Well, he, he said a lot of things while we were, while we were playing golf. And so there's always like crazy things going through my brain. I'm thinking about 47 different actions to take during the backswing. One thing that he always used to say that like, has really stood out to me is like golf is, is all between your Shoulders like it's. Or between your ears or like, is that. Is that. Do you share that philosophy? Having. Making it to that level?
- [05:17]
A
Yeah. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody that plays golf at a high level that would disagree with that, because while you can get caught up in the mechanics of the golf swing, the acumen, the decision making, the ability to control your. Your nerves, your thought process, all of that stuff is so much more important. You get to a point where, like, I'm not going to miss the golf ball. I'm going to keep it in front of me. I might hit an errant one every now and then, but for the most part, the key to playing competitive golf at a high level is playing with your C game all the time and being able to be competitive with your C game, not your A game. So when you see that, like, guys on tour that are winning or. Or making a living, they're not playing their best. And if they have their A game, it might be for like, two or three tournaments in a year, and it's not for like a whole week. It's. It might be for three or four whole stretches. And so. Wow. Yeah. And so all the things between your ears is how you're able to play with your C game, and it doesn't really matter how you hit the ball. Does that make sense? Well, let's.
- [06:27]
B
Let's dive into it a little bit. Like, what. What does a C game mean? Is this A. Is this A. Like, I should lay up? Like, I know I could smash it and hit the green, but I should lay up here?
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A
Is that.
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B
Is that like, bringing down your game or. What do you mean by C game?
- [06:41]
A
C sea game means I don't care how I'm hitting the ball, whether it's solid or whatever. I'm managing to not make mistakes, to avoid hazards, to avoid stupid little bogeys. I'm missing it in the right place. And. And you're basically limiting the damage, if that makes sense. And then when, you know, the goofy thing about really good golfers is we're only one swing away from figuring it out, right? And so you could be in the middle of a. Of a around, and like, oh, that's the thing. And then, like, all of a sudden, you catch fire. That's how you see those guys, you know, on tv. They'll start off with, you know, a few bogeys on the front nine, and they go make six birdies. Like, that's exactly what's happening.
- [07:24]
B
And is that. Is that an act of like them turning it up and, and achieving. Or is it just like it's those little iterations, those little wins, those little finds and then just building on that momentum.
- [07:34]
A
It's the, you hear the people say it all the time, like, you know, just get into their process. You're really, you shouldn't in theory be doing anything differently. It's just about being patient and not forcing it. Like all the prep work you do, all the practice, all the drills, all the simulation stuff that you do to simulate the tournament environment prepares you for being patient when it's not going your way because you know that you've done the good work. Interesting.
- [08:00]
B
And have you always been like a quick learner? I had this thing where, where it was like, I won't compete in things that I can't win. And like, for me it's been very, very challenging to get good at golf. And so I look at golf as like, get to drive a car, drink some beers, have some great conversation and like, but I'll never compete in golf. But I have found these things in life where business, for instance, like, like I've got this mindset and maybe a little arrogant, but like nobody's going to outwork me and, and like that I can control. I can't control if I'm going to slice it. And I realize that's like in my head evidently. Like, have you always been a quick learn at these things or is it just like. No, if I want to do it, like I will, I will put my head down and figure it out.
- [08:48]
A
Maybe a little bit of both. Always been a really hard worker and I gonna sound weird, but I learned golf at the end of an era and so it was still very much and it was a badge of honor to be self taught if, if you were working at, towards something, somebody out there was working harder than you. Right. And so I wouldn't go on vacations if I missed a day of practice. I thought I was two weeks behind. And so to your point, attitude and effort are the only things you can control. And I knew that if I worked harder than everybody else, hard work beats talent every single day. You know, it just does because there's tons of talented people that never get anything off the ground because they take it for granted. And so I was fortunate. I think I had a little bit of both and, and I didn't take it for granted. And I think it helped me a lot.
- [09:44]
B
Are there things like you've talked about quite a few concepts with golf and it's interesting because when people See golf if they haven't played, like, played, not necessarily competitively, but like, actually gone on a course and swung. I don't think as a spectator, you understand the mental toughness that has to come from golf to keep your cool and to stay focused. And I couldn't even imagine having a crowd. Like, I can barely play in front of three other people, so I can't imagine having, like, a crowd.
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A
Yeah. What.
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B
Some of these concepts that you've brought up, like, have you translated them into business?
- [10:22]
A
Yeah.
- [10:23]
B
Which, what's like, top of mind for you there.
- [10:25]
A
So I heard a long time ago, and I don't have anything to back this up, but nerd, physiologically, nervous and excitement have the exact same, like, physical responses in your body. Right. And so reframing that, like, if I was really nervous, I would be like, oh, man, I'm like, I'm really excited for the day. And then all of a sudden you turn this. I don't want to screw up into like, let's go get it. And there's just little things like that if you ever want to have a blast. I have my wife, she doesn't watch golf tournaments with me, but she will watch the last eight holes on a Sunday if it's a first time winner, because I'll give her some backstory. And, you know, these guys haven't made bogeys in 65 holes, and now they're on the back nine and they got to keep it together. You will see the most bizarre things on 16, 17, and 18 when there's a first time winner trying to get it to the house. And it's because they literally, Ryan, cannot feel their body. I mean, adrenaline, everything, you can't fill the club head time is moving at a different speed, like all of these crazy things. And the only, like, anchor or home base you have to go back to is your routine. And you hear it over and over and over and over again. You just got to have faith in it. And, and the people that fight it are the ones that really struggle.
- [11:57]
B
Interesting. And so there's a part of the reframing. It's. It's interesting when you talk about, like, fall. We, we talk about this in the military a lot. Like, one of the reasons that we train, we call it, like, train to fight train. Like, we, you know, train as if we're actually doing it. And the whole reason is, like, you go through the motions a thousand times. And so one of the. A quick story. So I was going through this program, and a part of the program was it's called VBSS Visit Board Search and Seizure. And so it's. They are teaching you how to operate in an environment where you're boarding a vessel and you're looking for narcotics, you're looking for smuggling. There's a lot of different things. Coast Guard, for some reason, gets all the accolades, but the Navy has a VBSS several. Very, very much so VBSS seems. And the interesting thing is, like, I've shotguns. I've done all of the military training. One of the things that they do through this program, though, is they put you in. They've got, like, a container. It's built out of containers, but they've got, like, what appears to be a ship that you'll climb a rope, get to the top board, and go through the actions. The, the thing, though, is that there are quote unquote enemies there, and you're firing paintball guns. And it's not. It's not like a paintball actual gun. It's like a real gun that just happens to have a. A paintball at the end of the bullet. Yeah. And I will tell you the amount of stress that I experienced through that. Like, I. I could barely even hold the gun. Like, everything, like, it was just an adrenaline dump. And, like, if you don't go through those thousand actions before then, you'll just lose it all. So super interesting story. So when they're. When they're going through that experience, is it. I don't want to say a lack of maturity, but it's just a lack of experience at that part. Having dealt with that sort of kind
- [13:47]
A
of episode before, I think a lot of it is. Yeah. You know, so you're speaking and things like that, right? When. When. When that spike of adrenaline hits, if you don't. If you haven't been there and you don't recognize that feeling, you kind of freak out a little bit. But if you've done the work and you. And that spike hits, you're like, oh, that's me. And so now you have this trigger to, like, all right, probably need to slow down a little bit and breathe a little bit, and, And. And. And just know that that's what's happening right now, and that's okay. And you. You hear these. These guys that win for the first time talking about. And they go on to win after that. Like, they kind of break the seal, Right. And what's happening is they have those experiences now to draw from. It's not enough while you're feeling, and. And it's not Wrong. Because sometimes you're like, man, I can't pull the golf club. This is not. I've never felt this before. Like, you don't even know how to fix it. You don't know how to do it. And so the. The prep and the familiarity with the situation is really good. I count. I've always counted, and it helps a ton.
- [14:52]
B
Interesting. Can you walk us through that? What I've heard of, like, square breathing. I've heard of all sorts of tricks. What was your go to with the counting?
- [15:00]
A
So you will know, after I explain this, that I'm definitely a high fact finder. But basically, you see somebody behind the ball. We call that like the practice box, Right. You're taking your practice wings, you're figuring out where you want to set up, where you want to hit it, all that stuff. And so as soon as I. I line the club up with. I like to, like, line the ball up with my landing spot with my club. It's just something I've always done. As soon as the club goes down, I start counting. 1, 2, 3, 4. And I get to the ball. When I get to the ball, one is club face at the target, two is stance width, three is posture, and four is kind of like locking in my right side. So 1, 2, 3, 4. So know that. And then when I swing, one is at address, and I get to about two to waist high. And then golf swing happens. But having that. I mean, you can time me to the second millisecond. It's. It's the same tempo. And so how that helped me is if I'm out of sequence, when the nerves with nerves kick in or whatever, I know where I am in my process to where it's like, I've really sped up or like, I'm going really slow right now, and that's not normal. And I'm like, all right, let's just back off and make it feel good, huh? Yeah,
- [16:28]
B
I love that.
- [16:29]
A
And it also gets you focused on the numbers as opposed to, like, the golf swing. You know, it's like, it's such an arbitrary, stupid thing, but I'm more concerned about where I am at 4 than I am. Like, my grip or whatever. It helps shut my brain off. Yeah.
- [16:45]
B
I was so lost in it like that. That was the question I was trying to think of is, like, I think the biggest problem for me is I'm thinking about, like, all these different things as I'm walking up to the ball and this and that and don't slice it and this. And you Know the, the act of counting like takes your brain and gives it a different action other than like thinking about the thousands of things that you should be doing in that moment.
- [17:06]
A
So it also served as a checklist for me. I get really lazy with my posture. I can tell you this, Ryan, 80% of what's going to go wrong in your golf swing happens before you ever take the club. It's, it's your posture, it's your ball position, it's your alignment, like all of that stuff. If you can take care of that, it's almost really hard to hit a terrible golf shot. And so that counting is my like posture checklist, alignment checklist, just so I know I'm in a good spot, then I have a ton more confidence just to swing freely. And so that helps me a lot.
- [17:41]
B
Did you do any coaching? Did you, did you do any like tour shop stuff?
- [17:46]
A
No. I did. So it's funny, I'm largely self taught. In the, in the late 80s and in the 90s, having a coach was pretty foreign. People didn't do it. And back then it was a good golfer that would relay what he felt. That's how golf was taught for 100 years. And we know now that feel versus real. What I feel and what's happening is never the same thing. And so the misinformation that these guys were relaying, not out of, out of like ignorance or malice, they just didn't know. And the stuff I was working on when I was young is nuts. I have an 11 year old and he's so much better than I will ever be because he has the right like, like we have the right data. And so to answer your question with when it I can't coach on the golf swing, I almost had to relearn like golf philosophy after right around 2000 because with, with 3D and Trackman and all this stuff, we started to understand the golf swing much differently now. And so I made all my money inside of 130 yards. Like I will play you in your house inside 130. So I'll help people chip and putt in. In short game is my bread and butter. But I never helped anybody with the full swing outside of fundamental stuff.
- [19:14]
B
Nice. Maybe you can help me help me with mine. So obviously there was like a ton of benefits from the technology and from all the data that was coming in and being able to get better at a certain thing, specifically in this case golf. I think there's some really interesting correlations here. And so with all the data, were there any downsides to that as far as, like, how to improve your swing? Or was it, was it like. No, these are the five adjustments. Go do it.
- [19:42]
A
I'm sure that there are people that you can play golf by the numbers too much. You know, if I get fitted for a new set, I might use trackman a little bit, but at the end of the day, I want the ball to fly through the window I wanted to fly through. And so I'm still going to hit golf balls outside and see what the club is doing. And then I use the data to, like, back it up. I almost prefer not to use the trackman because what happens is I'll start giving myself a lesson if, if I don't like the numbers I'm seeing. But I'm supposed to be demoing these golf clubs to see if I want the set, but I'm not taking the swing I normally take because I'm trying to gain the system on track, you know what I mean? So, like, I start changing, changing my swing, which is at odds with the exercise. You want the clubs to your golf swing, not your golf swing to the clubs. Yep.
- [20:37]
B
I, I, my brain immediately goes to, like, the scorecard and data and like, leading indicators, lagging indicators, and, and playing it versus a game, versus working on the things that, that actually move the needle in, in business.
- [20:49]
A
You know, it's funny you say that, Ryan. So if you want to correlate kind of EOS scorecarding to golf, I tracked everything up and downs. This is before we had Adam Brody with Shot link, before tracking was tracking. I, I would do all of that. I would be like, I'm missing 30%. Right. And so I wonder if that's a leading indicator. Right. Or lagging indicator. But I wonder if that's an alignment issue. And I go work on it and I get it back on track, that kind of thing. And it was what gets measured gets done. Really true.
- [21:33]
B
When you look back on that and you think about the scorecard. So one of the things in EOS is, like, you can't look at everything, and there's got to be a very specific things that you're looking at that actually move the needle. And the exercise that that happens as a part of that is the whole, you're sitting on an island and you, all you have is this dashboard. You know, what do you need to see to understand the health of the business? The things that you were measuring? Like, do you look back on that now with the experience and the knowledge and the wisdom and say, like, actually, like, I was tracking 17 different things and like making corrections. But it was really like these three things or these four things.
- [22:09]
A
No, no, no, that's great. And by the way, I have like a little video secrecy. If you see me looking up to the right, I'm really like locked in. I'm just, I'm a visual person, so. So I would say I knew what I needed to track if I had to draw like a correlation between Golf Prep and like EOS scorecarding. What I loved about it was it was fluid. Like pretty much everything in eos you don't want to be moving the goal when we're setting rocks and we're setting one year plans through your pictures, like all that stuff, right. Like we, we draw a line in the sand because it's important that we know where we are relative to our predictions. However, the scorecard leading indicators I tell the teams I work with, it's like, don't change it every week because you're moving the goal post, but like once a quarter if things aren't serving you well, or maybe you have a seasonal business and you want to put something in there that you want to track momentarily, like, that's okay. And that worked a lot with, with Golf Prep. Right. So sometimes I'd be working on something that I won't be working on forever or I'm trying to bake it into my routine. And so I would track that until I couldn't not do it and then it would come off of my, off of the things I tracked because I didn't need to anymore. And very similar with the way that we run a scorecard in an EOS run business, right? Yep.
- [23:32]
B
And one of the things that you talked in there is like, you know, you don't want to change kind of all of these things constantly. I love what you just said there of like, but look at it quarterly and make sure that these things that you're looking at are still serving you. If there's a business leader or company out there that's listening. This is more of a, probably a personal question now, which is like with my last company, when we got to a certain size and we had enough people sitting around the senior leadership team and we had a pretty good, like, pretty good grasp on like the drivers of the business and what we should be focused on, it was incredible. And we all locked in and we all kind of figured it out. We were all working on the right things. By all, I mean like, let's say 80% is good if there's a company listening and they're in the earlier stages and the data points that they're getting rapidly evolve decision making and priorities over a quarter. How do you think through that, how do you guide or coach that team on? Guys, you set these 10 rocks and you got two done and like two disappeared. I don't know where they went, but you just took them off the freaking rock list. And that's, that's not EOS life. So what, what do you, how do you coach that?
- [24:53]
A
So if you'll, if you'll follow me down a thought process, I can, I can share that with you. So when you say that, my mind immediately goes to the five leadership abilities when we're talking about hitting the ceiling and one of the leadership abilities. So it's simplify, delegate, predict systemized structure. And so the ability to predict short term and long term is a skill that they need to learn as a younger company that's trying to figure this out and kind of get some systems and processes in place. And I'll ask the teams early on in their journey and I'll say, you know, if, if you did, if you plan to do 5 million this year and you did 7, is that a good or a bad thing? And they're always like, well, that's awesome. I was like, so it's great monetarily, but it's terrible from the prediction standpoint because if you're two million dollars off of a five million dollar company, it affects your hiring decisions, it affects how you invest, it affects timelines of everything, acquiring assets, like all that stuff, right? So I need you to be predicting well, so that we can always kind of be within a standard deviation. If you're beyond kind of a standard deviation of what we would expect, then we need to dive into that and figure it out. And you know, if you get this big contract that lands in your lap and you blow it out of the water, not asking you to stop, go buy a boat, good job. But fundamentally speaking, we need to be able to predict and understand what's going on. Part one. So the next step to that, Ryan, is, you know, I talk to people all the time, you know, maybe, maybe they're in manufacturing or, or, or they get their project based and they get big contracts and it's really hard for them to predict because they're like, well, I could get one thing that's a $10 million project and then everything's different. And, and I would make the argument that that's an outlier. And we use, mentioned it just a second ago, we use 80% all the time in EOS. So from a prediction standpoint, I asked my teams, like, what's the 80% that we can count on? Like, like we, we know it's, it's keeping the lights on, it's predictable, we see it and then, you know, so let's budget and plan for that. And then if we get any of these big outliers that change things, that's all good. But we want to back that revenue out of our initial predictions because it's not something that's necessarily sustainable. If you chase that whale all the time, all the time, year after year, it's, it's just not tenable and it really demoralizes your people.
- [27:42]
B
Alright, quick break friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent? Or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else and that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do do that through a business model called recruiting As a service. We do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements and we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T h a r bor.com let's get your next sales superstar hired. You could have just said oh well I would tell that leadership team to get their crap together and just figure out better rocks. But I loved how you took this into, into the principles aspect and the delegate and elevate when and also the story you just gave about like hitting seven. Anybody out there would be like hell yeah. Like that's a great thing. That's not a bad thing. And it's like no, like there are a lot of things that were that were not predicted in order to hit that. I talk to a lot of founders each month and the one thing that I see with a lot of entrepreneurs is like they're shooting the moon. And so it's like, hey, what, what do you think you're going to do this year? And let's say the company did 4 million the year before and be like, we're going to do 20 million this year. And by the way, I'm guilty of this no matter where I'm at, but when I see it from someone else, there's some weird reflection that I go through there.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What's your advice for situations like that? Is that a matter of trying to pull back their ambitions? Is that, hey, focus on this 10 year target. That's where you planted your flag. That's where you're going, like, keep focus there, but be more realistic and take off the rosy glasses every time you start to set ambitious goals.
- [30:33]
A
So, you know, I think for me there's 850 implementers in the world. We all know EOS so well and everybody is, 99% of us are. They're all great, but we do it differently. Right. I think my approach is to really look at things objectively. The beauty I found in ELS is that it's designed to take the subjectivity out of business. Whether it be values or we hit a goal or we didn't. Like, we're not making it good or bad or right or wrong. It's just what is. And so if you're $4 million this year and you go to 20 mil and you want to be at 20, I'm going to say, awesome, what's that look like? And walk me through it. And, and you know, like if there's a hockey stick thing and, and, and that gets you that 16 million dollar thing, I would probably have you plan on two paths and I would say, listen, barring that thing from happening, what are we going to do? And they'll say this, that's our number. If you get to 20, like hell yeah, let's do it. But that's how I would kind of parse that out and get to a more realistic number. Because I don't know that there's a ton of value in saying like, you're unrealistic. Who am I to say that? Damn. I don't know what their potential, I don't know what their limits are. I don't know what their ceiling is. I'm certainly not qualified to, to be the arbiter of it. And so I just need you to walk me through. So we're on the same page.
- [32:04]
B
I like that. It's like a Like, okay, so what needs to be true? And then you can go by each and at that point probably start to see it.
- [32:13]
A
Yeah, they're like, oh, okay, well, yeah, and it's fine. And so I try my hardest to just be really objective in situations and then let them make their choice.
- [32:25]
B
I feel like I took us so far off the golf path, it's going to be hard to get us back there. Now just one last question on that and then I do want to get into because like you have a very unique and interesting. It's like entrepreneurial. There's athletics involved, there's some promotion involved, which that's like I was in the event business. It sounds like you were in like nightlife business. But promotion in that space is like a grind. It is to, to put the pin in in golf. Like what. Why did you decide to hang up the clubs?
- [32:54]
A
It's a great question and I can remember it really vividly. I had been playing professionally about four and a half, five years. And so I, I four went. I had a lot of D1 scholarship offers and my mom got sick. And so when I got out of high school and we were kind of back to being broke, I was like, hey mom, I'm just gonna go play golf. That's what I'm gonna do anyways for the rest of my life. I've got some sponsorship money and I want to help pay the bills. And so you know, 18 year old Chris could not be told otherwise. And, and so I did. But I, I4 went college to play golf early on and I was out there and I was doing fine, I was making cuts. But it's, it's hard on the mini tours, you know, like my, my four rounds of 68 at 16 under par on a mini tour or even back then the Nike Tour might get me 20 grand. Whereas in that same room, like by today's standards, Korn Ferry let me backtrack. Golden State tour might be 20 grand. If I shoot 1600, I'm beating a bunch of really good players. I'm on the corn Ferry that 1600 might be 300 grand or 500 grand. And if I'm on the tour it might be 2 million. And so it's like, it's being in the right room, it's just like business, right? Like a lot of times the work that we do doesn't change, but the size of the company does. And so the, the, the price change changes. Right. I love that it doesn't an eos by the way, because I get to thoroughly I get to be thoroughly unimpressed with how big your business is because I can just be like, cool. What's driving you crazy? No, no, you didn't hear about the Billion Dollar Company? I have. Yeah, no, I got that. What's keeping you from two? So anyways, that to say I, I kind of saw the lighting on the wall. I, I, There was nothing that was going to push me over the edge. And I knew that if I didn't get an education or another skill set, I would blink and be 30. Playing money games at some country club, being a show pony for, for some executive, a ringer or whatever. And I, I had friends that were in that boat and they were miserable. Just, it's the bitter side of golf and I didn't want it. And so I went back to school and I did grad school and all that. And so that's why I hung it up, basically.
- [35:12]
B
Got it. So you were, you were like, like me. We were, we were Billy Madison going through, like, my knees were like through the desk. People are coming and hungover. I've got two kids at home. Like, I had a completely different college experience than everybody else that was there.
- [35:27]
A
That's right.
- [35:28]
B
When did the promotion stuff? So you went through school. Did you go, did you go right from undergrad to post grad or did you take a break?
- [35:36]
A
I took a break. Um, and so I, when I played golf, I lived in LA for a bit and we, so I bartended and I would work door and stuff just to supplement income. And then there was a place called Barfly on Sunset. We had a little Wednesday night there. And then when I moved back to Houston, I bartended at a, at a restaurant called Mastrada that was known for just like the craziest brunch in the world. It was like River Oaks very well to do people. And then like strippers and transvestites and club kids, they would all come together and have this brunch. It was insane. But so I, I, from there I, I started to work in, work with a few different clubs. And then if, have you ever seen Bar Rescue?
- [36:30]
B
Yes.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah.
- [36:32]
A
So what I would do is I would go in, In Houston, we have this, this, we used to call them the fickle 500. So people would open up a place and it would be new and shiny for about six months, and then something new would open and the fickle 500 would go on to the new and shiny place, but you'd still be stuck with, you know, three and a half years on your lease and and you're not getting that crowd back. And so I would go into these places when they opened up and say, you know, what are you guys ringing on a Saturday? And they would say, oh, we're doing eight grand. I'm like, well, you're doing 5,400. And I'll tell you why. You've got this many wells, this many bartenders. This is your price point. There's so many drinks we can make a minute. And I would. And they'd be like, holy cow. Like, kid gets what? Like, the number would be accurate instantly. Kind of getting you some validity, right? Yep. And I said, well, this crowd is going to be down the road in six months, and you're going to be screwed. So I'll come back then and I'll help you get out of the hole for the next three and a half years. I'm like, no, no, we won't eat it. And I would come back in six months, but please help us.
- [37:40]
B
Yeah. You just knew.
- [37:41]
A
Yeah.
- [37:42]
B
What credibility, by the way, on coming back in. Because you're like, I. Like, I know this.
- [37:47]
A
And it's also a small community. And so people would start to, like, they start to know my partner and I, and then we would supplement it with. So I would do the consulting, and then we would do parties and. And different nights. And so at one point, I think at the height of it, we had five parties a week and. And probably consulting for 15 or 20 different places. Interesting. It was all cash, and I was in my early. In my mid-20s, and was like. It's like the equivalent of a guy making stripper money. It was pretty great.
- [38:19]
B
That's incredible. And I don't think the IRS listens, so we should be good on all of this.
- [38:23]
A
Statute of limitations,
- [38:29]
B
What are the things that you did? So, obviously, you brought either the fickle 500 or you figured out how to get some of the customer base back. What were some of the actual tactics, Boots on the ground and things that you use to help solve.
- [38:43]
A
Oh, man. I wonder if I can say this on the podcast
- [38:48]
B
so you don't. You don't have to. We could take it in a different direction.
- [38:51]
A
No, no, no, it's okay. So from a. From a consulting standpoint, that was pretty straightforward. It was really just building out a marketing plan for them to. And it usually revolved around different ethnicities. So, like, what's put into place a Latin night, an urban night. You know what I mean? And, like.
- [39:12]
B
Yep.
- [39:13]
A
And so. And in Houston, in particular is very. When people would say they Want to go to a mixed crowd. What they really meant was they want 80 kind of like pretty white people and then 20, whatever else. Because if they truly had like a 20, 20, 20, like, even split, whatever ethnicity, you know, Joe over here doesn't care for, they're gonna. But, man, there's too many of those. Yeah, they would stop going. It's really bizarre just from a. A microeconomic kind of, like, racial profiling standpoint. It's just the fact of it. It's weird. And so, you know, they say they wanted the mixed crowds, but most of the time, people would, like, fake. The Latin people would love to go to their Latin parties, and so we would help kind of figure that out from a marketing standpoint. And then we would do big events, you know, New Year's, Halloween, we did the after party for Super Bowls and all sorts of stuff. And so that was another revenue stream. And then on our weekly parties, oddly enough, my partner was a bald Mexican guy that you wouldn't want to meet in an alley if you don't. I didn't know him, and he's just, like, the nicest guy in the world. But he and I had a. A really big Asian crowd we stumbled onto. And, you know, the. The cool thing about the Asian crowd we had in the nightclub days is they wouldn't come in ones and twos. They would come in groups of, like, 30 and 40. Oh, wow. And oddly enough, to this day, you know, I. I knew all of those guys. Whole Asian party community in, you know, the early 2000s, and now they're working professionals and own businesses and stuff like that. And. And every time they see me, like, oh, my gosh, this guy used to get me, like, trash. So I still keep in touch with a lot of them. It's. It's really funny. And so I. Yeah, that's awesome.
- [41:17]
B
And because eventually, were you the. Were you the founder of Einstein? Was that your. So was a lot of these things, like, when I think about entrepreneurship, like, the athletic side of it, like building that discipline and building resilience from the adversity that you face. And obviously, with golf, again, spectators may not understand this, but, like, when you're playing golf, there is so much mental toughness that comes along with that. Were all of these things kind of the ingredients for you to go out and launch Einstein?
- [41:49]
A
I think so. I. So the nightclub market kind of went. I saw it going south and kind of much like golf. I saw some writing on the wall, and I'm like, I got to figure out something else. And so I went and hid in grad school and I was the only dummy that paid for it because everybody else was oil and gas and. And so I went there and I, you know, I'd run a business. And so when I was there, I was really using it as. As not to check a box, but I needed to get this skill set. And I, I became really close with the dean and one of the marketing professors, and they started to put me out on annual kind of consulting engagements. And so I did that for like a year and a half. And then some of my nightclub people asked me for help in marketing. And so there was a big complex that opened up with like four or five different clubs in Houston. So I did that. There's a magazine called. There was a magazine that was industry related, so they were my client. So overnight I had like four clients. I was making more than the engagements and so. And I was on site for those engagements to this day. It's the only time I ever went to an office and I walked into the. The owner's office and said, hey, I'm starting a marketing agency. I won't be coming in anymore, but you guys are still going to be my clients and nothing changes. And he was like, all right, cool. And so I flipped him into. To being a client. And so when I started Einstein, it was essentially, I had five clients out of the box and I was, you know, more than covering what I made before. And it was a really easy transition, but it totally happened by accident. I was like, voluntary to start it.
- [43:34]
B
I love that. Like, what were. What were some of the shockers in the early days? Because like, you had at that point, I mean, you had accomplished quite a bit and now you've kind of fallen into this marketing agency. Like, did I won't set you up with. Oh, was it smooth sailing for a decade? Because like, we already know the answer to that. But like, what's the thing, like right out of the gate where you were like, oops, wasn't expecting that.
- [43:59]
A
Yeah, well, I think one is. As, as entrepreneurs, a lot of times we want to make it up as we go. And. And so I probably did a lot of things that I could have just leaned on a mentor or, or a bigger company and, and said, hey, how are you guys doing this? You know what I mean? At that time, I was a little fish. I'm not threatening anybody. So pro. Probably had like a year and a half of some learning and you know, back office creating materials and process. It's hard. I will say once we hit a tipping point of like a certain amount of revenue and things were in place and we could start making some hiring decisions. It smoothed out. I'll tell you where my life really changed. So I had the business for 12 years. First half of it, we were running it like anybody else, and I saw that we were going to get stuck. And so we, we found traction and self implemented, ultimately sold the company. But you know, the thing that. It was a gift and I can tie this. It's a good segue back to golf. I felt so guilty, Ryan. The first three or four years, I could drop my, my kid off at school and I could absolutely go to the golf course and play golf until like 11, and nobody would care. But I felt like I needed to be in my desk because these people were paying us all this money and if I'm not there to pick up when they call, then I'm like stealing from them. Yeah. And. And I realized one day, man, if, if the rug got pulled out and I lost this company and I had this access to do a thing I love every single morning, and I didn't take it, and I had to go work in an office somewhere, I would kill myself for not taking advantage of that when it was available to me. And so what I did is I just told my clients, like, hey, I'm playing golf till 11. You can call me anytime after that. I'm available to you, whatever you need, but don't bug me before that. And I never had a single person have a problem with it. Huh. If they did, then they can go work with somebody else. Fine.
- [46:08]
B
And did you have a, at that point, did you have a team that was doing like most of the day to day stuff and you were just managing relationships, or were you still like, very heavily involved?
- [46:18]
A
A little of both. So, oddly enough, I hated marketing, but I love the strategic side. And so, you know, I had a team that was doing the work and I would meet with, you know, these enterprise clients and other engagements and really map out strategy, troubleshoot a lot like we do today. You know what I mean? And so I, I wasn't in the weeds with regards to like producing the, the, the work product, but I, I was heavily involved with the planning and strategic stuff.
- [46:55]
B
You glossed over this just a little bit. So I want to make sure. I just want to, I just want to ask if I was that easy. You said you self implemented, then sold what, what, like, were you planning to sell after you self implemented? Was everybody like, hey, let's like, yeah,
- [47:10]
A
I'm the marketing, you either have like, like 30 $40 million marketing firms or you've got like $5 million marketing firms. And these bigger ones gobble up those guys all the time. And so it was kind of that scenario. So it was a private sale, somebody bought our book and it was, was great. The self implementation was, was really helpful. And at the time I thought we were killing it. Knowing what I know now, we weren't. It was the CHRIS operating system and not pos. So so we probably left some money on the table, but I mean, didn't know what we didn't know. And I was, we were happy. And then shout out to Lori Clements. I was kind of semi retired and playing too much golf and a friend of mine had started a wellness company that was first to market for COVID testing and so testing for like Universal and Paramount and NBA the bubble season. So I was their integrator COO and Lori was our implementer. And I saw what a paid implementation looked like and I was like, oh, that's not what we were doing. And so, and, and Instead of a 90 day world, we had 45 day worlds because it was Covid and Fauci could come on TV one day and be like, all right, today it's a baseball hat and six masks. We're like, all right, we gotta pivot. And and so we really, it was, it was not a pure EOS implementation. And, and props to Lori for, for going with that in that crazy time period. And then that company dissolved when COVID testing was kind of readily available. And then I was back to semi retired and playing too much golf, not making any kind of impact. And I had lunch with Lori and you know, she, she asked me what I wanted to do next and said, you know, you really should be doing this. And so she brought me into the community and I'll forever be grateful for it.
- [49:04]
B
That's awesome. And yes, she is a well known inside of the EOS ecosystem. For the folks that, that are listening that are unfamiliar with like who's who in inside of the OS world. Yeah, it's so funny when you, when you share your story about that. Well, there's, there's two antidotes. The, the first is if you know Phil Cooper, he's, he's based out of the Annapolis slash Philadelphia area and like he talks about the number all the time and I'm gonna, I'm gonna forget the exact number, but I think it's somewhere between 7 and 8 million. But he did a post calculation after he sold his company and he was like, if I would have done EOS and done it right, I would have gotten X amount of million more for my business. And he talks all about it on one of the recordings that we had. And then the second is I feel you on the self implementation. So at Hunt a Killer we were probably 5 or 10 million. I was in a Vistage group and none other than Dan Wallace walks through as the speaker, hands out books, does his half day assessment in my Vistage group and read the book, took it back to the team. The team used to hate Fridays after Vistage. So my Vistage group met like third Thursdays and they would just brace for impact on that Friday. And that Friday was no different because I gave everybody a book and I said, we're self implementing next week. And we spent about a year, year and a half, it was probably like 5 to 15 million. And then eventually we were like, all right, it's time to get some like outside perspective and some outside help. We went with Margaret Dixon out of Boulder and I'll never forget this. Like we all fly in. So I was in Seattle, we had a couple, couple of us in Seattle and then most of our operations was in Baltimore. So it was perfect because we'd all fly into Denver, drive over to Boulder and like day one, like, you know, we, we opened the kimono, we started VTO and she was like, what the hell are you guys doing? I was like, what? Like we, we're eosing. But I, I think there's so many people out there that, that read the book and maybe they've got 90 and they're self implementing. They think they're doing everything right. And like yes, it transformed our business for self implementation. Like no, no question. But I'll tell you, like the minute we got an implementer, it was a completely different transformation that we had. So anyhow, those are the two antidotes I have, but I feel your pain on, on that one.
- [51:21]
A
Well, if I can piggyback on that, Ryan. You know the, the interesting thing is, especially with eos is it's so simple, it's infuriating. And so, you know, people are smart, you start a business, you know the pieces that need to be in place. And so like all of it shows up as super common sense until you start to put it into practice. Because the X factor is the people and people are messy and crazy and, and, and a lot of times the, the business owners don't necessarily have that framework to, to navigate the, the, the people component of it all. And so you know, the thing about being an implementer is my whole life is just about going as deep as possible. On eos, you get to be freed up to be an expert in your business. And if I don't know it, I've got 850 other people I can ask. And like, like, so there's anecdotes, there's books, there's like, I'm just an ELS nerd and if I was self implementing there was no way I would have time to go that deep because I still can't see the forest for the trees. And also I say this all the time, I don't have to see you on Monday. So if there's something in the room that needs to be said, you know, we call it entering the danger, doing the right thing. I'm going to say it, I'll say it with love and respect. But like I, I can say things that you can't say to your people because you still have to go to work.
- [52:42]
B
Yep.
- [52:42]
A
It's not like it doesn't exist, it wasn't said. But I get to facilitate that and I call it pulling on the thread. Like I noticed this and that, like, can you tell me about that? And then we have these really good discussions and it speaks to team health and all of that. And now you go back to the office and you're on the same page and you're aligned and rowing together. It's really beautiful. I didn't necessarily have that when I was self influential because I had to, I had to pull punches.
- [53:10]
B
Yep.
- [53:10]
A
Right. I can't piss Ryan off because I, we have this project, dude, he shuts down, I'm screwed.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean the thing, I've heard so many different. Well, I'll start with this. There's this whole notion of like graduating from eos. You spend two years going through the program, you know, you ramp up, you get kicked off. And I think we waited maybe 12ish months to like roll EOS and inside or down the entire organization. But there's this notion of graduating and like I, this is my opinion, just Ryan's opinion. But I don't believe in graduation. I believe having that third party in the room, that's bringing a different perspective that can say the things that need to be said. Also, we're self implementing today. I realize I just talked about how great it is to have an implementer. We're just not quite at that size yet. But when we're self implementing I have to run the meeting. So I have to run the meeting, I have to guide the conversation, and I have to try and be as unbiased as possible. I'm doing those things before I rush over to the table, put my other hat on, and, like, start to engage in the conversation. There's just so much value to having you in the room.
- [54:23]
A
I. I have a team I'm seeing tomorrow shout out to first line brands, and they, for all intents and purposes, have graduated from the process. They're killing it. They're doing amazing, and, like, they're just the loveliest people in the world. And I told Joanie the other day when we were checking in for the call, and I said, hey, at this point, you guys don't need me anymore. If we're working together, it's because we're getting value and we want to be together. But know that you guys have all the tools to be an eos run company without me. And so she's like, no, I get it. And we're. We want you, and that's great. I talked about graduation with another team, a law firm, and their eyes got really big. I'm like, not you guys. You're a mess. Oh, thank you. Okay. Scared me, Chris. Thought you were gonna kick us out.
- [55:16]
B
I love it.
- [55:17]
A
Yeah.
- [55:19]
B
All right. In the last. The last couple minutes, number one is what do you look for in a client? Like, are you from, like a size positioning geographically? Like, what do you. What do you seek in a client?
- [55:31]
A
That's great. So I, I really enjoy working with the 10 million and up because they have to have some more pieces in place. You can kind of fake it till you make it sub 10. As crazy as that sounds, you can. I. I like Houston. It's. There's enough entrepreneurs in. In Houston to not have to pull me away from my family. But if I had to answer your question psychographically, you know, how people think and feel. I'm, I'm. I'm pretty laid back. I don't have a problem being direct, but, like, I like to have fun. When I kind of tell my background, my story, I mentioned my son Liam, and how the thing that EOS gave me is I never had to sacrifice work, life, balance. And so I never missed drop off or pick up when he was a little guy. I still don't. And for the teams that resonates with those are my flock, you know, because I want to free you up to. To. I want you to get everything you want out of your business, but I also want to free you up to live a life you Love, pursue passions you have because you can have both. And I think so many people out there think that they have to choose between one or the other. And it really makes me sad because, you know, or. Or like, I'm gonna work really hard for the next 10 years and then we can enjoy it. It's like, well, but your kids are growing up and you're gone. Like, you're missing that. You're missing the point. And so I like to work with teams where that resonates. And if you're 23 years old and you just want to go, like, crush booty and make a bunch of money, then, like, by all means. But I mean, I might not be the guy for you, and that's okay. Yep. So.
- [57:05]
B
Yep. I. And like, talking about like, like, that was me, like, I was just constantly in grind mode and I was like, well, once. Once I make it, like, then. Then everything will open up. EOS Vistage and a business coach, like, those three things were life changing for me. Life changing. Okay, Chris, last question. Someone just listened to this whole thing and they're like, they've got that profile. They also happen to love golf and they think they can beat you within the 130 yards. How would they get a hold of you?
- [57:39]
A
Email is always Great. So, Chris McCarthy at EOS Worldwide. Find me on LinkedIn or give me a call. I don't know if I can get my number out, but anyways, how do. How do the other implementers you interview suggest that they get a hold of those.
- [57:59]
B
Those exact things? Find me on LinkedIn. Find me. And we'll make sure that we drop the links in the show notes as well. That way everybody's got it. Plus, you're tagged on the episode, so this. This will be good.
- [58:08]
A
Right?
- [58:09]
B
Okay, I did say that was last question, but one more. Hey, what. What's your handicap?
- [58:13]
A
I am a plus three and a half right now.
- [58:17]
B
Three and a half. Three and a half. That's another.
- [58:20]
A
When I peg it, when I tee off, I owe the golf course three and a half strokes.
- [58:24]
B
Got it, Got it. Okay, that's. That's great. I'm like a 30. So this is. This. We're. We're in the same. We're like, right there.
- [58:34]
A
I only have friends that still play, like, professionally and competitively and friends that can't. Couldn't break 130 if they tried. And nobody get in the middle. It's hilarious. So you can. You can shoot a thousand. Ryan, just shoot it. Just play it fast. You got scared.
- [58:49]
B
So my My one friend told. I forget which president was. But he was like. There was this famous quote, and he was like, anybody can play golf. You just need to know when to pick up. And I keep that, like, right here. If something just happens, and I'm like, well, there's a. There's a cold beer in the card. I'll be over there.
- [59:05]
A
They make more golf balls, man. Just keep it moving.
- [59:09]
B
Not for much longer, because I buy them all. All right, Chris, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on. I appreciate it, and look forward to seeing you next week, too.
- [59:18]
A
You, too, Ryan. This was great, man. Thank you for having me.