← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E50 | The Hero’s Journey to Authentic Leadership with Justin Cook
00:58:16
Loading summary
Transcript89 lines
- [00:00]
A
Your 10 year target is the magnitude at which you get to live your purpose as an organization. I'd been using that language for a long time, but just leaning even more into that to just remind like, hey, just this external thing for the sake of this external thing is. Will not fulfill you.
- [00:27]
B
Welcome to Confessions an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. All right, here we go. This is. This is it, Justin. It was like I was looking at the data, I realized, like, qce, I have seen you somewhat recent, and maybe it's because I was connecting with do so much. So I connect with do who you introduced me to on, like a monthly basis. So it's like your. Your spirit, like, continues to live through the relationships I have. Maybe, maybe that's why I love that
- [01:05]
A
I was hanging out with you this morning.
- [01:07]
B
Are you serious?
- [01:08]
A
Yeah. I presented. I did a thing for her Brain Trust vault. And Brain Trust is like, for women entrepreneurs, sort of similar to eo, and she invited me to come spend an hour with her, her group.
- [01:24]
B
That's awesome. She's. She's incredible. She's amazing.
- [01:28]
A
Yeah.
- [01:29]
B
Last time we talked, I got to see all of her birthday pictures. So she does that trip once a year.
- [01:35]
A
Oh, my gosh. Yes.
- [01:36]
B
Yeah.
- [01:37]
A
The Day of the Dead. All the makeup, all the. Yes. Yeah, I. I was invited on that trip. I couldn't make it, and I was bummed when I saw what I missed. It would have been a chaotic, like, three days to get down there and get back and in the middle of annual planning season, but, yeah, it looked like a blast.
- [01:56]
B
That whole thing has, like, inspired me to take my birthday more serious because, like, I looked at. I looked at what she did and I was like, wow. Because I don't. I don't really do anything. And now I'm like, how do I get a bunch of amazing friends together and just go somewhere incredible?
- [02:11]
A
So, yeah, I've been the same way. I. I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to impose. And so I just, like, never make a big deal out of my birthday. Never. Like, I've done. I think when I turned 30, I did a big thing and it was a. It was a blast. Like, a ton of people came out and it was so much fun. I was like, okay, that's good for now. And then, like last year, I turned 40 and I just went by myself to Peru and did ayahuasca in the jungle. And so like, that was my 40th birthday, which was a whole, its own experience.
- [02:45]
B
You know, I had no intent of going down that path today. Would you be comfortable going down that path a little bit?
- [02:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty open about it, obviously. Yeah.
- [02:58]
B
Just for people that are curious about the experience. I know a couple people that have done it and, and I've heard varying degrees of success, but the like, common thread was, it was transformational. So I guess like, first question, first question, like, how did you, how did you discover and how did you develop this interest where you're like, let's, let's, let's go on a journey?
- [03:17]
A
I would say it was probably two and a half years ago. I was as successful as I thought I would ever be. I was making more money than I ever thought I would make. And I was still experiencing. I'll be happy when, like, I'll be content when I get to this next stage thing. And I had done therapy for 10 years. I'd been on antidepressants for probably 15 years. And I felt like there's something, there's something I haven't uncovered. And I read an article in on Vox.com about a guy that went and did ayahuasca and described it as 10 years of therapy in a week. And I thought, man, this, this could be the thing. And so I started sort of casually exploring it. And then I sponsor the EO chapter here and we do a thing called EO Talks where members will do sort of TED style talks. And one of the members did a talk about his experience going to a place in Costa Rica and healing his PTSD as part of the ayahuasca journey. And then at the reception afterwards, I ran into my veterinarian who had just been and done it and she was talking about. I was like, okay, this is, I need to do it. I went to schedule it and they're like, you're gonna have to get off those antidepressants if you want to do this. So that I spent probably a year sort of weaning off of those so that I could go do it. And then went in August and did it. And it was really hard. I would say I was there for 12 days. It was, I chose a place that's completely off grid, no electricity, no cell phones, like fully, you're going to be present with whatever you're feeling. And I was miserable for the first half of it. Like miserable. And Then I had this, like, breakthrough experience in one of the ceremonies and changed my life. Like, I mean, truly transformative.
- [05:33]
B
When you think back on the first six hours or first half, where it got a little bumpy.
- [05:39]
A
Six days? Yeah.
- [05:42]
B
Oh, so when you say first half, you mean.
- [05:45]
A
I mean the first half of the time I was. I thought so you. So, ayahuasca, for those that don't know it's a plant based. It's a plant medicine. That is. The way people describe it is it takes you on the hero's journey. You're gonna go into the underworld. You're gonna face all of your shadows and your fears and the things you don't like about yourself and all the things you feel anxious about. Everything comes up. And I thought it did that, like in a ceremony and the ceremonies are, you know, maybe six hours. What I discovered is that it. It's not working just in the ceremonies, it's working the whole time you're there. And that, like, for me, the trip to the underworld, to the really hard things and hard feelings, was for the first six days, like, that's just what I was living in, with nothing to distract. No phone to distract myself, no, like, no tv, nothing. And it was hot and uncomfortable. I like to be comfortable. And so it was. Yeah, it was really, really hard. And then I had the. It was the fourth of six ceremonies where I had just a really breakthrough experience.
- [07:04]
B
Look, it's so. It's interesting.
- [07:06]
A
I was like, didn't expect to go there. Yeah.
- [07:10]
B
And also, like, I was like, oh, first six hours. And you're like, I said half. And I said 12 days there. I thought you meant half of a cerem.
- [07:18]
A
Right.
- [07:18]
B
Not half of your entire trip.
- [07:21]
A
Yeah.
- [07:22]
B
When you look back on those six hours and how challenging, difficult the things that you were going through, and then you look at the breakthroughs and breakthroughs in your words, life changing. Do you look at that experience now and say, no question, without a doubt, I would do it again a million times over. Or do you look at that and you're like, God, those six days were freaking brutal. And like, yeah, there's some things I discovered, but, like, I. I would think twice before doing it or recommending it.
- [07:55]
A
I would. I would absolutely do it again, but I don't want to ever do it again, if that makes sense. Right. So it. It was absolutely worth it. You know, something I discovered after being on SSRIs for 15 years. It's easy to have been sort of just suppressing emotion and feelings for that whole time. And Then when you don't have that anymore, you start to feel those things and it's almost like you have 15 years of it built up. And so, like, last year was probably the hardest year of my life. Going through that sort of preparation because I got off of those in January. Like, had spent about a year weaning off, finished in January, and probably around April started experiencing really severe anxiety. Like, started feeling the symptoms of depression coming back in. And I really. There was a moment of like, okay, do I just go back on these. This medicine? Because I'm not. I am not anti medicine. I was only doing it so that I could go do this experience. And I sort of powered through, got back into therapy with someone that was doing some somatic work with me that was really, really helpful and. But, like, just knowing sort of where I was, yeah, if I was experiencing that again, I would absolutely go do ayahuasca again because I, like, I had scheduled an appointment with my psychiatrist for the week after I got back thinking, okay, I gotta just get back on this medicine. I just have a chemical imbalance. And I got back and was like, I don't. I think I'm good. Like, I don't need it. Which is kind of crazy. And so, yeah, I would do it again. But it. It's not fun. Like, it's. It's what. One of the things I. I remember in my third ceremony, I. You set an intention and I said, teach me to feel joy. And I got the most overwhelming sadness I've ever felt in my life. And it just carried through to the next day. After ceremonies, we would spend. We would wait until noon, we would be in silence and dry fasting. And during that time we were encouraged to not even read because that's just more input but just to like, be with. And so I woke up at six because the birds are screaming outside of my little tambo. And you know, for six hours I'm just sitting in this, like, deep, profound sadness. But I had this insight that, like, part of what I was learning was that to feel joy, I had to be with sadness. I had to be comfortable feeling that and being present in that and letting it just sort of pass and move through me. And it still sucks. And so the. The next day I was sharing that. You know, I learned that lesson. But also I feel like I've dealt with sadness for a lot of my life and I'm tired of it. And then that night, the facilitator. There's these Shipibo Indian healers that are there doing Work with you. And they don't speak any English, so there's facilitators. And the facilitator said to me, when I took the medicine, we spoke to the maestros about you, and they're going to help you tonight. And I don't know if they helped me. I don't know what happened. But I. Yeah, ayahuasca can make you physically ill. And apologies to anyone with a weeks. I vomited sadness that night. Like, I got sick. I threw. And as it was happening in my mind, it was like, oh, this is the sadness leaving. And truly, the next morning, I woke up and it was like, what I wrote in my journal. I experienced a miracle last night. And it was just this, like, crazy, beautiful thing. And it was really hard getting there. So. Yeah, long answer to your question.
- [12:21]
B
No, it's a. It's a beautiful answer to the question. Do you. When you were going through this, like, did you. Did you know that you were on the hero? Because that's a. That's a tough journey. Like, did you. Did you know you were on the hero's journey? Or is this only in retrospection now, where. Or reflection where you're like, yeah, that was. I did take the hero's journey on that.
- [12:42]
A
It was the. The place that I went was wonderful. It's called the Temple of the Way of Light. And they had, like, an integration guide that they had sent us before. And then they had printouts of it sort of around the. In the different areas where we would go. And it was that day after, when I was feeling all of this sadness. At noon, we went to lunch to break our fast. And I was sitting. They had like, a little lounge library, and I picked up the integration guide and started reading through it. And that was. It talks in that about the hero's journey. And that was what connected the dots. Like, in the moment, I was like, oh, this is what's happening. And I just was thinking about it differently. And even before we began, the first day, we got there and we were meeting and the facilitators were sort of prepping us. I remember one of them saying, when you ask the medicine for something, it's not always direct. Like, you'll get what you need, but it might be six months later. And that came to mind as like, okay, I asked for joy, and it gave me sadness, but it gave me sadness because that's what I needed, that understanding, that realization of, like, hey, be with. Just be with. And so, yeah, I think I had that realization because I was well supported. By their materials and programming.
- [14:14]
B
And do you. Sometimes I hear people talk about this journey as being rewired coming out the other side. Do you feel that maybe that's a lame question because you talked a little bit about you canceled the appointment for the SSRI as soon as you got back. So are you rewired? Do you look at it like that?
- [14:35]
A
Yeah, I think works in different ways. And everybody has a different experience. I really do believe. You know, people say you. You get what you need. And there are ways in which there's sort of an immediate rewiring. Like, for me, that. That ceremony where I felt the sadness leave me, like, that felt like a rewiring. And then they're. You know, while you're on the medicine, you have these insights. You get this. These moments of clarity. And I journal a lot about those, you know, the. The next morning. But some of those things, you have to be very intentional about integrating into your life and remembering those insights. And so, you know, I heard. I heard someone describe any of the plant medicines. Psilocybin, ayahuasca, any of these things as like, putting a sword into the fire right when you're, like, forging a sword. And if you just take it out and do nothing, it's just weaker at that point. But you have to take it out and, like, hammer it and forge the sword. And that's the work of integration of this, like, really intentional bringing these lessons into your life, reminding yourself of them. And so there are ways that feel rewired, and there are things that feel like, oh, yeah, don't forget. Like, this insight. You have a perfect example of this. I. In one of the next. In the. I think the fifth ceremony, I was still feeling like the sadness had left, but I was still feeling some stress and anxiety about the future. And so that that night, I set the intention of teach me to trust. Like, just to trust the future. And as the medicine started to kick in, I started to have pretty scary hallucinations that I had had the previous night, very similar things that were just frightening. And I sort of mentally said, can you not be so scary tonight? And I heard this voice that said, I will be who I will be. You choose whether to be afraid. And it was like, oh, my gosh, this is talking to me about the future. Like, the future will be what it will be. I choose whether to be afraid. And that was. That was this insight that, like, I am constantly bringing myself back to. Every time I start to stress or worry about the future, I have that thing, but I have to remember it. Like, I have to integrate that into my life. Does that make sense?
- [17:21]
B
It does. And was this an every night? Like when, when I think about 12 days, here's, here's what goes through my mind. So I, I used to get anxiety, like taking Advil. And so when I hear about this, like, this journey and this experience that people go through, I get, I get very excited because I'm like, that sounds incredible. And I'm like, well, I have trouble taking Advil, let alone, like working with. So it sounds like you did this on a nightly basis. How do you go from the night before? It sounds like it was a pretty frightening experience the night before. And then how do you bring yourself to put yourself right back into that situation, knowing what happened the previous night?
- [18:07]
A
Yeah, there are moments that are frightening. There are moments that are filled with relief. I will say in that, in that ceremony, I kind of didn't want to take the medicine again because I was like, I got my miracle. Like, the sadness left. I'm good. It doesn't taste good. Like, it's, it. It's disgusting. I was like, I just, I was dreading it all day, like, truly. And they even tell you that you don't. You need to come to each ceremony because the healers are doing work. They, they sing you these songs called Ikaros, and they say that's part of the healing work and you need to come to that. But you don't actually need to take the medicine if you don't want to. But I have a little bit of fomo, so I wasn't going to not take it, but I didn't want to. And yeah, I think you just, you just do. It's. You're really well supported. Like the place that I went, at least the. They're incredibly supportive. We did one, we had a day off, then we did back to back nights, and then a day off and then back to back again day off and then a final. So it's sort of spread out over the 12 days that you're doing these six ceremonies. But it is. Yeah, it's hard to take it again. But when you have these, these experiences, the really positive parts of the experiences, because even in the hard ones, I would say I had positive things happening every time too. You are drawn in to, to do the work and you're there. Right. Like you, I had done all of this to get there, to prepare. There's a special diet you have to do leading up to it. And so it feels kind of like, yeah, I'm not gonna not do it.
- [19:56]
B
Yeah.
- [19:57]
A
I'm not gonna just. I'm not gonna just sit in here for six hours in the dark. That's going to get boring.
- [20:06]
B
It feels like these types of experiences require a certain amount of vulnerability. And when I look at your past and I look at the things that you do today, you lead leaders, you lead leadership teams. I'm not saying you put on a face. I'm sure you do it authentically as you do these types of things, but there is a certain amount of confidence that you need. You talked about all of these things that, that you had achieved, and yet you were still seeking. Therefore, you. You found this experience to, to help with that. Did you find yourself, like, putting on a face or resisting or trying not to be vulnerable or. Once you were down there, it was like, open kimono. Let's. Let's do this thing.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. So it was. It was really great because I was there with. I didn't know anybody there. Right. Like, I'm there with 19 strangers. So it was. It was pretty easy to be open. And when everyone has sort of made this investment to do this inner work, everyone is pretty quickly open. Like, the, the environment just calls for it, and it feels like a very safe place to do that. And. And I would tell you one of the things I learned, you know, in the summer leading up to it, when I was experiencing, like, pretty severe anxiety with, like, physical manifestation where it felt like someone was just reaching into my stomach and twisting. And I. I would have client sessions. And what I found initially it was, I've got to put on the face. Like, this is not their problem. This is not their thing to deal with. I've got to show up and just, like, put on the face. And somebody challenged me on that and said, what would happen if you just told them, here's what I'm experiencing. Just so you're aware. You may see me doing, you know, some deep breathing or something during the day. We're all good, but just know. And I shared that with some clients. And the. What it. All it did was just make everybody more open to be honest and vulnerable. Right. Like, when you lead with vulnerability, it creates that opportunity for everyone else. And I think there's a real balance there. But it's. It felt. It felt good to be able to be authentic. The. It opened the door for people to share. Like, I've experienced that as well. I'm going through it as well. And it just created some beautiful moments. Even in client sessions, when you Think
- [22:58]
B
about creating that environment where there's vulnerability and people are willing to share both about themselves personally and bring kind of their true and authentic selves in and have the conversations that naturally translate into business problems. But that foundation of trust. It's interesting because you were questioning, like, I need to put on a face. And so, like, the team doesn't need to know about this. And you. You sought some feedback, and somebody was like, you should just bring yourself and who you are and let everybody know you questioned that. Is there ever a time where, like, there's a different answer to that question as people are, like, trying to bring them their full selves into the room? Like, I hear this all the time of, like, this is how we get vulnerability is authenticity. And. And these things. Where. Where do we wave off? Like, where do. Where do we finally say, hey, you know what? That should have stayed at home, that should have stayed here. That should have stayed wherever.
- [23:57]
A
And that's such a good question. And I wish there was an easy, bright line answer to it. And I don't. I don't know if there is. I think what comes to mind for me is that there is a difference between me and sharing for awareness and saying, just so you know, this is what I'm experiencing right now versus making it their problem. Right? And this goes for the team, too. Like, this is what I'm going through, so we need to stop everything so that I can. So that we can solve my personal problems and making it their problem. And I have seen that, right? Like, I have seen that happen where it's like, we're. I. I'm not a licensed therapist. I. And I should not do therapy. And so. But there's such a fine line here of. You know, I had a. I had a session where somebody received some really difficult feedback, and he was trying to respond, and he was having trouble finding his words. But I could just see part of what was making it hard for him to respond is he was trying to suppress all the emotion he was feeling about the feedback he just received, and he was trying to suppress a lot of stuff that was going on in order to speak. And I just said, hey, what if. What if just for a few minutes, you're allowed to feel your feelings and release whatever emotion you're feeling instead of stuffing it down and then respond. And I said, I looked at. Is everybody okay with that? Yeah. And then he just cried for a couple minutes. And then he could say, like, then he could say, this is what was happening. This is why I had such an Emotional response to that. And I think that was a. It was like a. It was a beautiful thing. And so there was a little bit of this personal side, but he didn't make it anyone else's problem. It was just, hey, can we all just give permission to this Might take five extra minutes, but let the emotion sort of move through. Take a few deep breaths. Because we're humans, like, at the end of the day, we're humans. We have nervous systems that get dysregulated. We that try, like, it drives a ton of physiological stuff that's happening. And so I think it can be really healthy. And I've seen it where somebody, you know, broke down and really made it all about them. And it really dragged the whole team down. And it was not like, it was not a good use of anyone's time. And it didn't help that person move through anything. So I wish I could say here's the bright line. Here's when you cross it, that's the importance of being able to just read the energy of the room and sort of dance with what shows up.
- [27:17]
B
It's interesting when you just shared that story, you shared a counter example. And it's interesting because my mind went immediately to the counter example, which is the reaction that I don't have a good theory for this other than maybe not getting hiring right in the past. But when I've been in rooms where tough feedback is giving, the immediate knee jerk was very rarely about that person looking inwardly. And so, you know, when you talk about that person breaking down and, like, thinking through things and then being able to articulate, like, the level of maturity that that requires and the vulnerability that you have created inside of that group. I think that speaks volumes because usually what you see is like an attack that was a personal attack on me, and now I'm going to counterattack on you, or I'm going to. I'm going to deflect and I'm going to say, like, come up with all these reasons. So super interesting experience you had there.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah.
- [28:21]
B
When you think about last kind of we're putting a bow on the original conversation and had no idea we were going to go down that path. And it was just so, so powerful. So powerful. Are there things people talk about a lot about all the personal things that they get from this experience. And so, like, you know, I was able to resolve this or find this or do this, achieve this rewire. I've never heard people really talk about it kind of in a business setting. Meaning, like, did your perspective change on how you see business, how you see success professionally. Like, were those things altered by this experience that you had?
- [29:08]
A
Yes, I think it's impossible for the personal work, especially in what I do for the personal work to not bleed into the business and how you think about success. And I would say one of the shifts for me that was not a dramatic in the moment but has just been unfolding over the past several months was, you know, leading up to it, having this realization and while I was there, this cementing that, you know, this is nothing original but that attachment is the root of all suffering. Right? Like you become attached to things and that, that creates suffering when you don't have that thing and tying that into like external success and external validation. And you know, it's interesting. One of the big shifts for me that has unfolded is, you know, that part of what we do with the EOS is we set a big 10 year target. And I think in the past I1 I was very like go big or go home, like 10x is easier than 2x. And I believe that like I'm all in on that but really pushing for this like big huge thing. And one of my friends shared this with me, David Slobotsky, he shared the. There's a clip of Jim Carrey presenting at the Golden Globes. Have you seen this clip? That I'm two time award winner Jim Carrey. I dream of being three time Golden Globe award winner Jim Carrey because then I'll be enough. And it just like it really crystallized for me this idea that your 10 year target, like it's not going to be enough unless it's really tied to your purpose. And so I had always said like the, your 10 year target is the magnitude at which you get to live your purpose as an organization. Like I'd been using that language for a long time, but just leaning even more into that to just remind like hey, just this external thing for the sake of this external thing is, will not fulfill you. I can, I have some lived experience with this where, you know, I hit every milestone that I could have imagined that I would hit and it did not fulfill me because it was, it was external. But when I think about like what is this thing that is just me living out my purpose, why I'm on this earth, that that connects, that feels right. And so I would say that's the, that's one of the biggest shifts. And I think also just this whole experience going through all of it has me more tuned in to the humanity of everyone in the room and what we're all experiencing and what we're all going through.
- [32:24]
B
You talk about purpose, and I love how you articulated this, both for organizations and for you personally. Did you find purpose? Did you enhance purpose? Did you redefine purpose? Like, did that journey have any impact on your purpose or just the things that you need to do in order to kind of fulfill that purpose?
- [32:45]
A
I think it really. So, like, for me, on my vto, in my core focus, my purpose is facilitating breakthroughs. Like, that's what. That's what I want. And it's been that since before that journey, but it has just taken on a new meaning of just how I show up in every situation. Am I. Are all. Is everything I do built around this? How can I help somebody have a breakthrough? And so I think that's another thing that has just been unfolding. And so it wasn't like I discovered this purpose all of a sudden, but it was more, hey, if I just live into this purpose, whatever I get on the other side of it, whether stuff comes my way, money, clients, success, it will be what it will be. What matters is that I'm living that purpose.
- [33:44]
B
There's a lot of statements that you've made today, too, which have been brilliant. Attachment is the root of all suffering. The future is.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, it will be what it will be. I choose whether to be afraid.
- [33:57]
B
Did. Did you already have these bangers? Like, were they already in your back pocket?
- [34:02]
A
No, that. So attachment is lured of suffering, I think is Buddha. So I can't take credit for that one. I mean, you think that's good? I could.
- [34:11]
B
I would tell anybody.
- [34:13]
A
No, no. Like, literally, I'll be who I would be. You choose whether to be afraid. That. That was a voice that I heard in the midst of my experience like that. Now, I had. I had said things to people like, it sounds like you're borrowing worry from tomorrow for today. Right? Like, if you're worrying about the future, it doesn't exist. Nothing exists except this present. Like, I had these mental constructs, but that one just, like, hits and the like. It will be what it will be. I being afraid. That's a choice. I choose whether to be afraid. That was a gift from this experience.
- [34:56]
B
Okay, I'll try one more time to get us back on track.
- [35:00]
A
What is on track? Everything is allowed.
- [35:04]
B
There we go.
- [35:04]
A
That's a Jill Young. I got to give credit to Jill Young for that one.
- [35:07]
B
All right, quick break, friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees? Who are all using outdated hiring processes. Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service, we do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent harbor.com that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar hired. So you, your journey, your journey has been like super interesting because you graduated, you started at Apple. You and I had a long conversation about this because some of the things that were fascinating about it, like when I think of Apple, I'm like, oh, it's cutthroat environment and hard to succeed and everything else. And you're like, actually it's like a customer centric environment. And it sounds like you picked up a lot from the retail side before you started on your trajectory at that point. Is that, is that correct?
- [37:03]
A
Yeah, I would say that's where I really picked up my passion for culture, like creating a great culture and how important that is. And I would say that's where, that's where I learned a lot about being a great teacher and trainer because I was part of a team that helped open new stores and did a lot of facilitation there. And that was probably the first step on my path of like, oh, this is, I'm, I'm good at this. This is something I have a talent for.
- [37:37]
B
And then you left there and then where did you go?
- [37:41]
A
So I was recruited to join a company that does like high end custom home automation, audio, video work. So you press the button on your phone and shades go down, the lights dim, the TV turns on, that kind of stuff. Because a lot of their products were running on a platform that used that was Apple centric And they wanted someone to help their clients with their Apple products. I pretty quickly shifted into sort of running operations for that company. And then the partners there were not simpatico, and they were dissolving their partnership. And another company brought almost all of us on to start a new division, doing that. So it was a company that did a lot of security work, and they wanted to. A lot of their customers, we had shared customers, and they wanted to be able to provide this custom AV work as well. So I landed there to start that division. And I remember when I was talking to the. One of the owners there the first time I met him, about 20 minutes into our conversation, he said, you're not really an ops guy, are you? I was like, no, no, I'm not. I'm not at all. And he's, yeah. Why? How did you land? Why are you doing this? It's like, it's where I could have the most impact on our culture and what we were doing. And he sort of saw this vision because he had merged with somebody. They were 50, 50 partners had merged their two businesses. They had brought us on. They had brought a group on to start a fire and life safety division. And he saw this, like, we had four completely disparate cultures operating under one roof and planted a seed of me doing something about that at some point. And after we got that division started up, I pitched them on the idea of me becoming the HR leader to focus on making it a great place to work. And I had no background in hr, but I was. I was persuasive, and they took a shot on letting me do that. And, yeah, that's. I was in that position when we decided to implement eos, and I led our implementation of that. And then it just. It was transformative for the organization.
- [40:16]
B
Is there anything just. This is just a completely random question. When. When you got into hr, I used to think of HR as, like, drives, culture, you know, payroll, benefits, like, all the good stuff. And. And then when one of my organizations grew larger, they were like, we're here to mitigate risk. And I was like, super interesting. Did your. Did your not necessarily philosophy, but maybe perception of, like, what HR is like, evolve over time as you got into it?
- [40:47]
A
Yeah, I definitely. I sort of had this idea of, okay, I'm going to be the, you know, captain of fun and great culture. And, um, but then also, if I'm going to do something, I want to get. I want to be good at it, I want to be doing it right. And so as I started to dig into the HR world and joined the, you know, shrm, the Society for Human Resource Managers. I uncovered, like, so much of this is about compliance and risk mitigation. And, and it's also what you make it, right? Like, I've experienced HR people that go all the way to the extreme on compliance and risk mitigation, and they're like, well, we can't do this because we haven't done XYZ and they might sue us. And I'm like, what's the likelihood? Like, just generally, what's the likelihood? Do we have insurance for that? Yes. So there's a balance. Like, HR can become this thing that, like, slows the organization down. And everything's like, we're walking on eggshells in every way. And I think it's, it's what you make it be. And we were, I was fortunate to not be in a huge company. We were around 40 employees when I moved into that role. When I left, we were at just under 100, I think, probably 95 or so. And so we had not reached that, you know, huge corporate HR type world.
- [42:14]
B
You talked a lot about, about culture and, and you saw the culture at Apple and then you came in here and you were able to kind of influence you or yourself into the role of HR where you believed you could drive culture. And did you take that? Because when I think about culture, you think about the founder, you think about the CEO. And I realize there's an exercise in EOS where the SLT gets together and we all envision what are some of these core attributes of our Rockstar teammates. Did you have carte blanche to, like, run with it, or were you trying to take what was out of the, you know, the head of the CEO and drive that culture forward?
- [42:56]
A
I think part of the challenge was that we had two 50, 50 partners as owners in the business. So they, and they had different ideas of culture and approach. And that's where I mean, to me, EOS is what the reason I. A big part of why I kept pursuing EOS is because it helps create the culture that you want. Right? And so us aligning on the core values that they did agree on, they had all their differences, but these are the things they agreed on and then using that to drive the behaviors we wanted to see. But also, like, what I love about EOS is that it creates a culture of accountability. It creates a culture where accountable people thrive and where unaccountable people won't thrive. And the, the, the challenges I would hear from employees, the things that they were frustrated about were their teammates that weren't pulling their weight. Right. Or a manager that wasn't setting clear expectations. And EOS gives you the tools to solve so many of those things. So culture really became, you know, the core values, but also just how we operate as an organization, what we tolerate, what we ask for a shift when a manager's coming to me constantly complaining about an employee and me saying what Help me understand why they still work here if you're complaining about them a lot. So a culture of just taking ownership of your experience and asking for what you need and a shift from. I remember the first time a manager said I'd rather have somebody that's, you know, at 50% than have nobody in the seat. I was like, no, not here. We're not going to roll that way like that. We're not going to settle for that. And so that's some of the like cultural shift that happens.
- [44:51]
B
Like this sounds like your crash course into eosi. Like I think about you've got two partners that are 50, 50. You're sitting in this role that can really help drive culture and reinforce like the vision all these different things. And now they've got you in, in. You know, it sounds like there's self implementation happening inside of this org but you are the designated eosi.
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. Yes.
- [45:15]
B
Are there things? There's going to be things. What are the top one or two things that you look back on that you did there and the experience and the wisdom and everything that you have today that you know, not only do you bring to your clients today, but you look back on be like I would have done that much different.
- [45:36]
A
This is going to sound self serving but I don't care. I would have advocated, I would have advocated for us to bring in an implementer. It's really hard to participate and facilitate. It's really hard to drive accountability up in that situation where they could just fire you if they don't like you and it's your whole livelihood. There's just we would have moved faster. Like it was transformative and it took twice as long as it needed to. Probably I would say the biggest thing that I learned was the, the pain of triangulation when you know, the person's coming to you to talk about the issue that they're having with the other person and then you're trying to talk to the other person to help move their behavior without saying this other person's talking to me about you. Like when you get stuck in the middle and just how that never worked. And I see Leaders do it all the time. And I just have to. I, like, call it out. Like, this is not going to go the way you think it's going to go. Like, what needs to happen is when they come to you with this, okay, are you going to tell them or am I? Like, we're going to just be open and honest because I spent a good amount of time. I think we talked about this a little bit in our last podcast, maybe, but, like, pursuing artificial harmony, right? Like, they. Things were fine on the surface because we weren't fighting and arguing, but we also weren't being honest. And when we sort of broke through that barrier and, you know, hat tip to my dad, who's a marriage and family therapist, who I was talking to, and he told me to read crucial conversations, which I picked up, and then I had them read it. And we were able to have some of these really hard conversations. Like, the real breakthroughs didn't happen until everyone said some things they had been holding back. And. And it opened the door for better conflicts. And so I would say the thing, like, the biggest thing that I learned through that experience is the power of conflict. And, like, just go there, take the band aid off. The only way out is through. And really, like, leaning on my. My teams and my leaders to believe that. And I have a lot of conviction around it because I've seen both things, I've seen both approaches. And I think Dan Sullivan, I'm going to butcher the quote, but he says your anticipation of. Of the difficult conversation is always worse than the actual thing. And that has been my experience.
- [48:38]
B
When that situation went down and they were able to. They were able to get to the conflict, was everybody happy by the resolution of that conflict? Like, was it one of these where we finally had the release in the room? Once the release happened, we were able to have the tough conversations we needed to have and everybody was happy with the resolution. Or were some of those harbored fears of, like, well, what if this or what if that or, what, what if, you know, a thousand different things. I'm sure that. That folks are playing in their head. Like, that scary track happened and, like, one person was incredibly pissed and the other person was. Got their way.
- [49:16]
A
Our. Our experience was it was like a, I think a giant, like, release valve just letting so much of this pressure out and being able to get to a place where we could still disagree and commit. Right? Like, we talk about that a lot in Eos. We can't rule by consensus. It allowed us to create some frameworks for even how we ran the business and what, what would be owner decisions versus sort of in the business, leadership decisions. And we were able to create a framework around, okay, if, if, if the owners can't agree, we're just gonna stick to the status quo. Like, if the change is proposed and the owners don't agree, status quo range. So we were able to come up with these agreements that allowed us to just operate more effectively. It didn't mean everyone got their way. And I think, I think for this team in particular, it was helpful that they really did love each other. Like, they really, like, they deeply cared for each other and there was a foundation. You know, I facilitated a session where we just sort of cleared the air and I started it with them all sharing the, like, the bests that they believed about each other. Like, what are, what are your best beliefs about each other? To sort of set the. Okay, do we all believe each other? That we believe that about each other? Because we're about to have some really hard conversations. But I want it to be through the lens of these, like, things that we really believe about each other. And that made it safer. I don't want to say easier, but safer to address some of the hurts and the wounds and the things that had been said in the past that we were still carrying and then really let go of that stuff and, and make an agreement that, you know, moving forward, somebody's going to do something that triggers you saying, oh, they're, they're doing this thing again. And we've just got to agree that we're not going to go there. We're going to say they're just being human. I'm going to, like, address it. I'm going to call it out, but I'm not going to say this is defining who that person is. And so there's just this shift in how we viewed and thought about each other. We're going to start assuming positive intent. We're going to stick to these positive things we believe about each other and let that drive how we see each other.
- [51:51]
B
One more question before we get into what you look for in a client and how people can find you. You talked about this triangulation, and I've seen that turn up in so many different ways. I've seen angularization that happens where it, like, it's hard word to pronounce, where it, like, it, like, breeds distrust and like, disrupts an entire company culture. I, I've seen it where, you know, it's just between literally, legitimately, like, two people and someone else is stuck in the middle. And I've seen it where, where people are trying to rehash decisions with just one person from something that was made as an entire team at the slt. And we did the whole, you know, disagree and commit. How do you, how do you consult, let's say, visionaries and integrators? Like, are we supposed to have on blinders? And like, when we walk down the hall, we're like, can't talk to you about anything because, like, we already decided that. We decided that. And when we have conversations, we do it as a team. Leaders are dealing with this on a daily basis. How do you, how do you guide and consult them?
- [52:58]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's, to me, it's, it's just this balance of. It comes back to that. Are, are you gonna tell them or am I right? So if it's somebody coming about someone else, I, I'm, I'm happy to. If you're coming to me because you need help with how to talk to that person. Like, you need some tips on how to approach this conversation. I'm okay with that. Like, let me, let me coach you on going to tell them. What's not an option is for you to come to me and for me to hold that secret. So we've got to be able to, like, go talk to them. And if it's, hey, I'm second guessing the decision that we made. Okay, let's, let's get the team together and talk about it some more. And oh, by the way, what, what kept you from speaking up in the moment? Like, thank you for saying something. Celebrate. Like, thank you for, for not holding this back, even though I wish you had done it sooner. But, like, I'm glad you didn't, you know, sabotage it over the next six months, which people do. But just take it. Like, let's just take it back to the team instead of, oh, yeah, let's, let's debate it here and then come back to the team and say we've reversed the decision. And so that's, to me, that's how you approach it.
- [54:20]
B
I love the. Are you going to tell them or I? And the way that I've always thought about that was exactly in your first example, which is like, hey, I'm having an issue with this person. Are you going to tell them or am I? And that's how I always saw it. I never saw them as the entire group. So they, they bring you and they're trying to rehash a problem. And it's like, Are you going to tell them, as in the entire slt, or am I? So we can. To me, it's okay, like, if we get new data points or we have new positions or we, if, if something has changed materially, I think everything is on the table for rediscussion.
- [54:54]
A
Yeah.
- [54:55]
B
But it just has to go back to the same forum that it was at previously so everybody can have that new data point or that new position.
- [55:01]
A
So, yeah, I was just. This happens even accidentally. I was tossing an idea around with one of my clients with the visionary, and we, we started to get into how it might play out and I was like, timeout, we shouldn't IDS this without the team. Like, you and I should not come up with this solution because we're missing the context of your integrator. We're missing the context and the input of the team, but this conversation should just prompt us to get it on the issues list. And oh, by the way, you don't need, like, take it to your level 10, talk about it with the team. But we both recognize we're like, oh, yeah, we're both sort of visionary mindset. So we're going to toss out some ideas and think our ideas are great. And then. And so just like, take it, take it. Leverage the power of your team.
- [55:51]
B
Love it. Okay, Justin, last two questions. Number one, what do you look for in clients? I realize you're in Nashville, Tennessee, which. Shout out to Nashville. I love Nashville.
- [56:00]
A
Yes.
- [56:01]
B
What do you look for in clients? And then if someone's listening to it and they're like, well, that's actually me. And I, I love everything you said. How can they get a hold of you?
- [56:09]
A
Yeah, I want clients that first and foremost care about their people, that their people are not a means to an end, but they love their people because I think that's just important to me. And two, they want help. They realize they don't have all the answers, so they want help. They see the value in having a coach. And three, they're growth oriented. Like, they, it doesn't have to be, you know, we want to 10x our revenue, but they, they are more afraid of the status quo than change because there will be change. If we're doing this, there's going to be change, there's going to be discomfort. And you have to care enough about the growth to do the change and to go through that. And they like to have fun because I'm like, I'm pretty casual. I want to have fun. I'm not. They're okay with me not wearing a sport coat. Like, I'm going to show up looking like this.
- [57:13]
B
I love it. And then how can so someone just listen to it? They're like, Justin's. I need to talk to Justin. How can they get a hold of you?
- [57:19]
A
They can call me 615-336-7-133. It's on the Internet now. Or they can email me. Justin cooksworldwide.com Justin I had no idea where.
- [57:32]
B
I mean, I usually have some semblance of where the conversation is going. So I have an outline in front of me. Not the exact questions, but like, hey, here's how we're gonna, like, storyboard this. Not, not one, not one point on that did we hit. So I just wanted to thank you for coming on and having just a really deep and thoughtful conversation.
- [57:51]
A
I think you have a real gift for this, for creating a space to have a deep and thoughtful conversation, whether it follows the outline or not. So thank you for creating the space.
- [58:03]
B
Sweet.
- [58:03]
A
That.
- [58:04]
B
That's it. That wraps it up. Thanks again. I appreciate it. And I'll see you in the green room.
- [58:09]
A
All.