← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
S2E60 | Is your 10 Year Target a Vision or Just a Wish? with Harrison Jenkins
01:01:51
Loading summary
Transcript59 lines
- [00:00]
A
An ideal client for EOS is more afraid of the status quo than they are of change. And just because your leadership team is that way does not mean that the people in the organization are that way.
- [00:15]
B
Welcome to Confessions of an Implementer. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and challenges of the system in action. Let's jump in. When I'm having conversations with EOS implementers and I'm like, oh, what's your, what's your niche? And it's, you know, the five to $50 million companies and you know, there's a lot of kind of family run stuff in there as well, but you have a very like, very specific niche which I think is super interesting. What is that?
- [00:49]
A
So I work with insurance brokers, so 99% of the time that are, those are independent. A lot of times they're family owned. But pretty much every single one of my clients, I have a few clients that are not. So I'm not exclusive to insurance, but that's where I play. So of my 20 something clients, only like three of them are not independent insurance brokers.
- [01:11]
B
Huh. And where, where did, did you just, you're like, you know, I'm gonna go get this, you know, EOS franchise and then just focus on this niche. Or, or was it something that came before?
- [01:22]
A
I was thinking, what's the sexiest industry in the world? It's got to be insurance. So let's do that. That's a good point. Yeah. No, so my family, my dad and uncles have their own firm, Blueprint Consulting Group, where they basically have a sales process that they teach to insurance brokers. And that's where I worked previously and I ran our recruiting practice, I did sales training, I did kind of everything. And we had a couple of clients that exploded in growth. And my dad just asked them, hey, what's happening? And they said it's EOS thing. And so my dad decided we need to do eos. And funny enough, I'd been at one company that tried to self implement and did what a lot of companies did, where they kind of Frankensteined it. And there's a lot of self implementing companies that do an awesome job. This company may be doing a good job now. They were not necessarily then. And I always tell the story of like when they told the 10 year target, it's a small little studio in Fort Worth and they said we want to be the largest production agency in the United States And I raised my hand, I was like, does that include Universal Studios? And they said yes. And I'm a 24 year old, I'm a smart ass at that point. So I'm like okay, well my 10 year target is to train a Falcon because clearly we're just writing like ridiculous things down. And so when my dad said we're doing EOs, I'm like, that's a terrible idea. And he's like do me a favor, just watch some of the videos. And I walked out and was like, well if they would have done this, like I think I would have actually loved this. So it just kind of became something where Blueprint said we need someone to understand eos. I was the one that hopped in and it became really natural to say, look, I'm going to go have my own EOS franchise. And a lot of the people that I'm going to be introduced to are these insurance brokers that the Jenkins guys are already interacting with that need this pretty desperately. And because one of the things is like you think about sales teaching great sales, you can teach great philosophy, you can teach all the right activities, but if they don't know, for example the discipline of lma, it's just not going to happen. And so there were certain things where they would get frustrated going man, these guys, they just aren't holding their people accountable. How do people do that? And then eos's the answer is you don't hold your, like you can't create accountable people. You need to lead them, manage them and that's going to create accountability. So there are so many natural things that just kind of clicked between the two that when I hopped in it was a really easy transition for me.
- [03:41]
B
That's super interesting. And I tell this story ad nauseam, so I'm sure listeners are getting tired of it. But we self implemented out of the gate as well. So was in a Vistage group and none other than Dan Wallace comes through the Vistage group. He hands out books, he does his half day presentation. I was like game changer. So what do I do the Friday? So my Vistage meetings were on Thursdays. Friday I show up and I'm like, you guys are not going to believe. And they're used to this like every Friday after my Vistage meeting they were always bracing for impact. And so we self implemented and it was incredibly transformational for the organization at that point. And then a few years later, so that's probably like 5 to 15 million. Then we went out and we got an expert implementer and in the first day of Margaret Dixon and we all show up and like, you know, not, not that we're like cocky, but we're confident in what we're doing in the process. We're running and, and she looks at our VTO, we were running on 90. She looks at it like all the, she's like, what the hell are you guys doing? And what was interesting, like we went through a completely like a whole nother level of transformation with her. So I agree with you, like self implementation can be done well and like it can be incredibly impactful. But once you bring someone in that's like, hey knucklehead, maybe, maybe you're not bigger than NBC universal here in 10 years. Like when you think about that type of goal, like knowing what you know now, if you had a client like that and, and you just saw what they put on the board and it was just something where you're like, that's crazy. Like, what, how would you, I don't know, like, how would you fix that?
- [05:14]
A
Yeah, kind of massage them to a goal that's going to be a little bit more attainable. So what's funny, insurance, shockingly enough, usually has the opposite issue. A lot of times they're safe people right where their goal is, like, man, we're 5 million in revenue now. What if 10 years from now we were double? And I'm like, if you didn't bring me in 10 years from now you'd be double like if you changed nothing about yourself. And so I talk to my clients a lot about what I believe. There's a key difference between prediction and projection. Projection is, if you continued to exist, how you are now, where would you end up? Prediction is where do you want to go and how do we get there? And so there are some clients that over predict. And so usually I just kind of walk them down with the fact of, look, hey, I like the idea when we share a 10 year target that people don't fully believe, that probably tells us we're onto something. Because if everyone goes, of course we're going to get there, it's way too small. But a lot of times what I'm asking them is, hey, why do you want to get there? Why is it exciting? What does the world look like if you get there? And usually that helps rein them in a little bit because most of them like the company they're at, they want it to be bigger, they want it to be more impressive. But you think about like the marshes of the world, like the largest insurance broker, most of them don't want to be that. And so if they write a goal that's like that and they slowly start to think about like, what would the world look like if I was there? And the other thing is asking like, hey guys, are you excited to march towards this goal? And sometimes when the goal is so big, they'll realize like, oh, I would ruin my life to hit that goal. Like, I would have to spend every day working 22 hours a day to get even close to it. And so it helps them be a little bit more reasonable. But again, in insurance, I usually deal with the exact opposite. Where they write goals. I'm like, guys, you said you're engaging with blueprint. Blueprint is telling you their goal is for you to double every four years. And you told me that your goal is in six years you want to double. Those two things don't really seem to match. Do you want to communicate to them that you want a different goal? Or do we need to have a conversation about how our goals are too low? Because one of those things need to happen. And when you think about like what implementers are, we always say in that focus day, hey, we are teachers, we are facilitators and we are coaches. And I think that third angle, the coach angle, is where one thing that is nice about being in a lot of rooms with the same industry is sometimes I can have some conversations about other companies, what they're doing and why it's exciting. That just gets them excited. And usually I'm working with clients in non competing markets and so me telling them that there's a broker halfway across the country that's doing something, they don't care that the other broker knows that, but it does help them start to go, okay, maybe we could look a little bit different. Maybe there is something more exciting on the horizon for us.
- [07:56]
B
What's interesting about what you're talking about is like the idea of where does the organization or where do you actually want the organization to go? And this is not a knock on EOS at all. It's something that I found that's been absent whether it was hunt a Killer or Talent Harbor. Like we come together and we talk about the activities that we're going to accomplish. And one thing that EOS has done incredibly well is ensure that those activities get done. And one of the issues I found with that is like, it doesn't matter if it's the right activities or the wrong activities, like those activities are going to get done. And it sounds like what's really interesting about you is there's this blueprint side which sounds maybe a little strategic as far as like, this is our promises are guaranteed. This is what's going to happen every four years. Four years. And then you, you match that with EOs. Is that kind of how, how you see that?
- [08:50]
A
Yeah. And so when I'm working as an EOS implementer, I'm just a regular EOS implementer. Blueprint is just someone they're gauging with on the outside. So you think about it, a lot of our clients could engage with a strategic coach that is entirely unrelated to eos. So the visionary is sitting down with that coach and saying, hey, where should I be going? What should I, you know, what goals should I be setting? And that's really, a lot of times what blueprint is able to do is have some of those conversations. And to your point, so much of eos, the traction component is what visionaries or what really integrators are like dying for and what people are frustrated over. Right. And so the vision component sometimes kind of falls to the wayside. And the piece that I think is missing for a lot of people is they tell their vision instead of selling their vision. And so if you're not selling like the outcomes of a vision. So I'll just give like the easy example here. I'm working with insurance brokers. Insurance brokers, they use a lot of weird language around salespeople. Like producer is the most common term. So when I tell a producer our 10 year target is that we're going to double twice, they see that and go, my book is going up, therefore the money I'm bringing home is going up. It's really easy for them to connect that. Account managers look at it and go, well, I hope I'm hit by a car because I'm very uninterested in us being that size. Like that's my nightmare. And so it's the job of the leader to sit down with those people and go, hey, let's imagine the world that we get to. There we actually are dealing with less accountants because we're dealing with larger accounts. The average person's salary is xyz. And so this is something that, like I've learned from my dad just at blueprint, a lot that I love is if you have a vision but no plan, the chances of you achieving your vision statistically are actually still pretty high. You're probably not going to do it like in a good timeframe. But if you have a really strong vision, people usually figure out a way if you have an execution plan but you have nothing that it's connected to, the chances of you quitting on that plan are way, way higher. Eos is like merging those two. That's the whole point. And so teams that slowly get so much into the minutia of execution, the problem usually is, hey, your quarterlies and your annual. You are not bringing all the departments in, selling what this amazing vision is of what we're doing, getting everybody really excited about it, and then also every quarter having each department leader going, hey, it's your job to now take that and turn it into the language of your department that they're really excited about. And so, yeah, blueprint is a lot of times helping open the eyes of like, how big can this be? Because a lot of, a lot of leaders are this way, right? They just, they get to the place. There's two extremes. There's the leaders that assume they can conquer the world and the leaders that are like, we're too incompetent to even exist in two years. And sometimes the two incompetent people, you have to let them know, like, no, like, this is amazing what you've built. But we can also build more. We can build some really exciting things. Let's take a minute and dream over this. And it's why I find at my quarterlies and my annuals with my clients, when we look at their 10 year target, whether it be 5 or 30 years, their instinct is to ask the question, are we currently on track for this target or should we tweak the target for what we're on track for? And I have to remind them that's not the discussion we're having right now. The discussion we're having. Is this still what we want to do? Are we all still fired up to do it? Because as an example of the target's seven years away, if right now, let's say we want to be 10 million in revenue, we're currently on track to be 9 million. You've got seven years to have a good year to get this back on track. So we don't need really until maybe a year or two out. And there's times like, hey, we're a year out, we're so wildly far off the goal. The goal will be demoralizing. Let's have a conversation, let's change the goal. But usually the question just starts with like, is the goal motivating in general? And that's where it goes back to your point of like, hey, we're doing a really good job on the task. But if we don't care about what we're trying to get to, we're never going to evaluate if the tasks are getting us there. We're just going to ask the question, did we do the task?
- [13:01]
B
What's interesting, one of the anecdotes that you just went down is people that can be excited inside of organizations are energized and inspired by some of these things and how that can have the complete opposite. So we focus on sales roles. And we ran into an interesting predicament with a client about three or four months ago where we were sending world class salespeople. And what we heard was that the organization was start to get, was starting to get nervous because they saw the potential of what business, those individuals. And so there was a fear going through the organization of how are we going to manage that type of growth. So, and that was surprise. It sounds like you've caught up on or like you've, you've seen these things before. That was so surprising to me because I'm like, growth, growth, growth. More sales, let's go. But there's other people in the organization that are like, well, that's means more work for me.
- [13:58]
A
So one of my favorite like client stories that they've actually like grown tremendously. But the first time we tried to get them on eos, my uncle is good friends with this guy who's in Memphis and he goes, hey, EOS is going to change your practice. You're going to love it. And he turns and looks at my uncle and he goes, I make a million dollars a year and I play 180 rounds of golf a year. Can you make my life better? And we're like, no, like keep doing that, that's awesome. But what happened? And he was, it's what we call an insurance, you know, a lifestyle agency where he's like, hey, it's just me running this, like I have no desire to grow this thing. Then his son approaches him and says, I want to join the agency. And he calls us in a panic and is like, we can't do this. This isn't meant to scale. I need help. And my uncle's like this EOS thing, you got to meet my nephew, you got to meet Harrison. And now they've gone. They're on pace to double at about four and a half years, which is super exciting. And I love that. Now they're thrilled with everything that's happening, but it took a change on his end of what he wanted. And that's one of the, like, I had Another client that they cracked me up, they called me. They're like, man, we've been sprinting so hard. Does anyone ever take a quarter off of rocks? I'm like, no, but you can always dial down what the rocks are trying to do in a quarter because it's, it's all about executing what you guys want. And so if what you guys want is more control because the sales are spiraling in a way that right now, hey, it's growing. But man, this isn't healthy. Like, none of us are having good work, life balance, or more importantly, we're afraid we're going to lose half of our account managers. Which means that long term, it's going to be one step forward, five steps back. Great. Let's take a second. Let's review what we're trying to do. But it always starts with, hey, what do you want? Because when we talk about what we're trying to help business owners do in EOs, I want them to get more of what they want from their business. And I think it's easy for me as an implementer to go in, especially someone who deals with the same space all the time and go, oh, what you want is to double in four years. That's what I'm going to help you do. And instead of backing up being like, hey, guys, like, I know you hired blueprint. Do you want to do what they want to do or do you all have a separate goal? Because our EOS is not about executing blueprint. Blueprint is about strategies for growth. Reos is about getting you where you want to be. Where do you want to be?
- [16:16]
B
How hard is that on the culture? So, and we can speak in fictional stories and not get into like the specifics of some of the things that you've dealt with with your clients. What's interesting is, though, you have dealt with this, which is, and I think this is unique because I don't hear about many other types of, like, businesses out there where they can just go golfing for X amount of time and things just like that sounds, that sounds pretty unique to the insurance industry. And when you and, and blueprint and everybody starts getting involved and it's like, hey, like, if you want, if you want it, here's the potential. What, what kind of shock have you seen that throughout the organization, culturally? And I'll leave it there, but I, I love this path.
- [16:59]
A
So a lot of times it leads to anxiety for specific individuals because a lot of these individuals, when you think about what a producer is, they're almost an entrepreneur. Inside of a business, they basically own their own book of business. So a lot of times, and this is my quick plug for anybody, any salesperson in the world that wants a good sales job, go and do insurance man. You get 40 commission on new, 30 on renewal for the lifetime of your client. And unless you're calling them racial slurs, they're probably going to renew 90% of the time. Like that's just the reality of this world. And so there's certain people that have built a two million dollar book and they're happy and they don't want to do anything. And so the good news is with a lot of my clients, what I usually talk about is like, hey, we build an accountability chart for where we want to be in the next six to 12 months. And you can have two types of producers on there. You can have growing producers and you can have basically validated producers that essentially are printing you money for you to go and hire new producers. Those guys create no problem. And I'm not telling you, build a seat on the accountability chart that fits what they want to do. I'm telling you, if think it is helpful to have someone in the organization that has a $2 million book and basically operates almost as an account manager for that book and that bankroll some things great, you can leave that person doing what they're doing because it actually is part of your plan of going where you're going. What does happen on the other end? And I'll tell you the most common one There was one of my clients just had two specific situations like this. A guy sits in sales training, he hears they were actually already eos before I hopped in with them. And their implementer, oddly enough, had just decided, hey, I'm switching to another venture. And so after they were already engaged with Blueprint, they said, hey, we need a new implementer. Their implementer made the introduction to me. They were doing a great job, executing really well. Their implementer did a fantastic job. And so now this marriage was happening with Blueprint. But one of the things that came up was that like one of their producers had basically been having panic attacks at night when he was thinking about the activity he was having to do. Now the great news was they just had a conversation of, do we think he could be a sales manager instead? And so there's probably another seat in the organization. So that's always where we start is like, hey, is there another seat in the organization? Because most of the time there is. But I also had someone else. And this was the really hard One with where they were growing, what they were doing. The owner of the agency now, his dad originally built it, he has known one of the people there since he was 13. And they have recognized, like, this person is not getting us where we needed to go. And with how we're changing, she has no interest in what we're doing to change. And so the hard conversation that had to occur was, hey, we need to present. We basically need to move her out or figure something out. And this is where the cultural aspect comes in. It's really funny how I've got lots of teams that are like, there is someone in our organization that everyone complains about all the time. They cannot stand them. And so they finally get to the place with EOs. They put them through core values, like, oh, that's why no one can stand them, because they're minuses across the board. And they fire him. And they're shocked that the response is not always positive across the board. People are like, can you believe that Cynthia was fired? And it's like, well, all of y' all said, you wish Cynthia was fired for 15 years. So, like, I'm surprised there's not an office party. But what they're doing, that was, in my opinion, I love that they did this. And it was so smart. They built the new seat. They explained to the person that's been there, here's the new seat. Honestly, we don't necessarily think you're a fit for it, but you are welcome to step into the seat and try it for a minute, and we're going to evaluate 60 days later if it's a fit for you. And what happens for most of those people is they try the seat and they quit. So it avoids the cultural impact, but it still forces the, hey, we can't be the same organization. I always tell my clients, I only know one organization that exists to employ people, and that is Goodwill. Goodwill literally exists so that people can get hired. That's why they have all of the donation centers. If we are not going to be Goodwill, we have to make sure that these jobs are actually doing something. If we could, every organization would only exist with a leadership team. We hire people underneath because we need those seats. And so the biggest thing that I see is it just kind of. It weeds out the people. A lot of times that realistically the organization's like, I don't think they've been a fit here for a long time. They weren't producing. But if I've got no level of, you know, leadership of, here's what the expectation is. And there's no consequences on the measurement. People will stick around for a paycheck for, like, a super long time.
- [21:42]
B
Yep. Yep. And when you were telling that story about letting someone go, that was not in line with the core values. So we had something like this at my last company, Hunt Killer, and we had one person that was creating a lot of drama, and we could tell that it was creating a hostile environment. And so when we parted ways, I thought the same thing. I was like, okay, everybody's just gonna be like, back to work. Thank goodness. And now we're here. And that wasn't it. It was like, can't believe that. Why do you. Why do you think that is?
- [22:23]
A
The cynical part of me, and I don't think this is right, but the cynical part of me is like, I wonder if people are a little bit afraid there's consequences now. And they kind of looked around for a while, and they're like, we could do whatever we want. But I think more of it goes back to people that are attracted to eos. An ideal client for eos is more afraid of the status quo than they are of change. And just because your leadership team is that way does not mean that the people in the organization are that way. And most people really are comfortable. And it's one of those things, honestly, like, this is a silly example, but I have a bad shoulder. And the reason I have a bad shoulder, I made a tackle when I was young and popped in and out. And my brain basically taught that shoulder from then on to engage in a different way when I lift. And so even though it's bad for my shoulder, my shoulder will always deal with that same situation, putting more pressure in other places. And it's just gotten used to that. And I think there's a lot of employees that are like, hey, this person's a problem. But I've learned the way to engage with them, and I don't want to learn a new way to engage. I don't want to learn a new way to work around the problems this person brings in the organization. Every day I walk to work, and I know what's going to happen. And usually the people that are, like, glad when they leave, it's just the people. I had one of those. That manager was intentionally training people wrong. And those people were looked as incompetent, and they were kind of on the chopping block. They were thrilled when their manager was gone because they were off the chopping block. And so those people were like, there's no operating so I can't feel comfortable in these situations. So I tend to think it's just a combination of, hey, we get used to the same thing. Change is hard for everybody. And then on top of that, I figured out a way to make this work. What if I can't make the next thing work? That's just where my brain goes.
- [24:07]
B
You talked about this idea of producers and hiring producers. And when producers come in, if you can just keep hiring the right producers, the business just grows. It sounds like you were doing some recruiting back in the day. Why doesn't every insurance company just go out there and just keep hiring producers? And the most fantastic ones?
- [24:33]
A
So I think the first thing is that insurance companies love to hire each other's failures. Because I don't want to waste time on teaching someone how to do the job. I don't want to license them. That's usually where we start. And so you think about it, if someone's going to move from one shop to another, it's probably because either A, we're offering them, like, equity. If we're offering them equity, you can get a really nice producer to come. But if I'm not offering them equity and I'm not offering them a really impressive salary, it's probably because they're not being very successful in building their book. And so there's certain producers, like you look on LinkedIn, it's like, oh, every two years they're at a new agency. Why is that? Well, because effectively the draw is running out and so they know to move every time they're not going to get money anymore. So I think that's the first thing is so many people have been burned with bad hires, and insurance in particular is really bad. We will keep the losers for a very, very long time and just keep paying them and paying them. And it's so expensive. So what, like, what Blueprint does in their recruiting model is people are brought in and 50% of their salary, they get it by setting appointments. And so the. And this is where, like, things marry really beautifully with eos. I sat down with one of my clients who's basically said, like, I'm a great sales leader or I'm great at sales. I have no idea what to ask people to do. I just know that I built a book of business that does not mean I know how to tell someone how to build it. And so we built the five roles and responsibilities for a producer. They need to prospect, they need to run the sales process, they need to keep track of their data, they need to build their vertical, and then they are responsible for their top 20% of accounts, making sure those renewals go smoothly. We then just walk through each of those five things and said, hey, what is a weekly number? One of these spits out. And what became really apparent was the only number he really cared about was getting two appointments a week. And that's what he wanted to measure them on. So the measurable from an EOS side was very simple. I'm measuring each producer two appointments a week. We then take that measurable and you marry it with recruiting and go, hey, we're going to pay you $100,000 salary year one. But here's the deal. After month three, 50% of it's at risk. And if you don't hit your appointments and you're allowed to bank up to six appointments, so you've got three months where you can build your bank. We're not trying to ding the winners. We're trying to figure out the people that four months in have set no appointments. Suddenly they expected to make a hundred thousand dollars. They're getting paid $50,000. Those people quit. You don't have to keep them around. And so what we want to do is just make sure we're constantly reinvesting. But a lot of these shops have been burned. If I hired all these people, I kept them around four years. Our net invalidated producer payroll was so high, and they're just kind of scared to hire again. And the other piece is if you don't have a real winner in your shop, you're very limited in what you hire. And what I mean by that. If you have winners in the shop, you can hire salespeople outside the industry that have never dealt with residuals. And it's easy to move them in because at the beginning, they're almost glorified cold callers. All your job is to set an appointment. A mentor from our shop who's awesome is going to go out with you. He or she gets 50% commission on what you write. So they're basically thrilled they're not having to set appointments and they're getting commission. That's awesome. They're happy to go and train these youngsters, especially if they have equity, because for them, if these producers work, everything goes up. Well, if you don't have that mentor, you can't hire people outside the industry because there's no one to go and close the appointments with them. And so your first hire has to be a little bit more expensive because you need to go and find a real winner. A lot of times what'll happen. Like one of my clients wanted to build an EB practice. Well that hire compared to being a lot of times the sweet spot for these Pre Commission is 80 to 100,000 in Dallas, Texas for example. Like that's not an incredibly large salary. But a lot of them were telling them, look, hey, you're not doing this for year one, we're telling you that year two, year three, you're going to have some really impressive comp. You have to go and hire some of these producers that are really experienced. Hey, it's going to be a $250,000 salary plus commission year one. And you basically know for a fact you're losing money. Like hiring is a losing equation, at least for the first year. So I think it's just very hard for some companies to get to the place of will we get into the practice. What I encourage a lot of my clients to do on their leadership scorecard, have some sort of candidate contact recruiting metric. Insurance is notorious for hiring when they need to hire compared to always just having a pipeline of. We are constantly hiring producers and that way if they fail, they fail. But we don't want to be somewhat like the usis of the world where these huge shops are like, hey, we bring people in, we don't train them at all, we put them in a cubby, they're on a draw and we don't care if they fail, we're going to hire 60 of them. That also usually you can't do that if you're an independent insurance broker. You know, I've probably got four good stabs in the year and so I probably need at least one of those four, maybe two of those four to work out.
- [29:42]
B
Are those, those residuals? Like is that a retention tactic? So if a, if a, if a producer leaves, do they have to leave behind their residuals as well?
- [29:50]
A
So it obviously depends a little bit where you live. But yes, in general rule of thumb, you have non competes, they can't go with you. The non compete obviously expires at a certain point. But at the same time, I know as an agency if a producer leaves, a percentage of that book is going to walk away. Not even necessarily with the producer. They're just the one that really has the relationship. And so most of the time good producers don't get fired. If you can build a good book, there's really no reason. The only, there are times where there's such cultural disasters that will go, hey, can we buy their book of business from them? But yeah, that Residual. It's a, it is a retention tactic. It keeps people there. It's also, I mean, when you. Again, when you look at insurance, if you can build. We used to tell people, hey, in seven years a top producer can build a million dollar book of business. I think that that time frame has shrunk because accounts that like in Dallas, that were five years ago were 10,000 in revenue are probably 20,000 in revenue now. So you're calling on the exact same group and just premiums and revenue, they've gone up. So these producers, if you're a real rock star, there was a guy we hired that in his second year, he wrote 400,000 in new business. So it meant that probably he'll have a $10 million book. When his book is, you know, at completion, he's getting 30% of that on renewal to maybe talk to his largest clients four times a year like that. That's a pretty good gig. Why would. He's never going to leave that. He doesn't want to leave, that he doesn't want to restart. Which goes back to the question at the beginning, why don't more hire? Well, think about all the good ones. You can't hire them. They've got no reason to leave. They built a good book.
- [31:35]
B
All right, quick break friends. Do you find it impossible to hire and retain top sales talent or worse, are you paying insane recruiter fees who are all using outdated hiring processes? Yeah, I was too at Hunt a Killer. We were spending hundreds of thousands on recruiter agency fees. And after I sold that company in 2025, I started Talent Harbor. And the whole vision here was to make sales recruiting accessible to small and medium sized businesses. Because the organizations that can hire and retain world class people are the ones that ultimately win. Most organizations rely on things like ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn and they get hundreds if not thousands of resumes. But we find that the best salespeople are already perfectly placed somewhere else. And that's why our approach is to go after them. And we do that through a business model called recruiting. As a service, we do not charge commissions, we do not have success fees, we don't have contracts, we don't have long term engagements. And we become an extension of your team as expert sales recruiters. If you're tired of the same old recruiters and want to actually grow your sales team, check us out@talent Harbor.com. that's Talent Harbor. T A L E N T H A R B O R dot com. Let's get your next sales superstar Hired. Why do you find that insurance companies hang on to producers that are non producing longer than they should?
- [33:06]
A
Genuinely, a lot of the clients I work with, it's because they're good guys and they're relational and so it's really hard. They met the person, so there's just a lot of emotion attached into it. I think the second it's the sunk cost fallacy, they just look at and go, hey, we paid him this much already. It was so hard to recruit him. And they don't have a recruiting pipeline, so they don't have an answer to it. My clients that fire quickly are also the ones that are constantly hiring all the time. And they're not cutthroat by any stretch of the imagination. They just believe it genuinely is bad for the producer if they cannot produce. Then we let them hang around this industry. And Seb, I literally had a client the other day was like, we know we're about to fire someone. And he walked into our office showing us the pictures of his kid because he knows he hasn't been producing enough. It's like, I get why they haven't fired that guy yet. That's hard, that's tough to do. And they're in a small town. But I think the biggest reason just goes back to like, so few have good hiring pipeline and so many of them are like, man, they've got a couple hits. And I think a lot of times pipeline and insurance is really deceptive. So a lot of people will say, I've got 2 million in my pipeline. And I look at their pipeline, I'm like, this is, you know, 8, 10, 12 months in the pipeline that's not going to close. Like, you need to assume that one's gone. Blueprint's pretty radical about like, something's only in your pipeline after you've had a discovery meeting, which is just the meeting where I'm sitting and actually getting information. And it's within 90 days. I think if every producer tracked their appointments, tracked their like, attempt activity for prospecting and had an accurate view of pipeline, a lot more producers would be successful and a lot more producers would also be fired because it just becomes very clear who can do it and who can't. And most these agencies don't do a good job with their data. So they don't know who's really successful and who's really not.
- [35:00]
B
Like you talked about kind of like the personable person or. And it's probably extroverts because people don't usually get in the sales if they're quiet like the, the people that can like form relationships and hold those relationships, but they're not producing. Like what's the common thing you see in there where it's like you're good at all these things, but you just can't get the deals across the finish line.
- [35:20]
A
So I don't know if you ever read the book, the Challenger Sale. Ooh, really good book. And basically I think it was going through like the recession and basically looking at there's different ways that people sell. I think the problem is a lot of those people, they're entirely just relational sellers. And relational sellers will always struggle in insurance because there's already a pretty strong relationship with the broker when you walk in. And so you're having to remove a relationship to create a relationship. The Challenger Sale is the idea that the individuals that did like the best during the recession were individuals that would challenge the prospect on what they think they need. And so there's a couple things that I see why people can really struggle. The first is B2B insurance, 90 day sales cycle, very sophisticated. And so if you're not used to a large long sales cycle where I have to get in front of a cfo, you're really going to struggle in this industry. The second reason, the way that the traditional vetting of a producer goes, it's all built for the incumbent to win. It is a quote system and like particular, for example, on the PNC side. So if I'm getting property and casualty insurance, my thought would be the best way to get the best price is for a bunch of people to go and quote, which in every other industry that's true, it is the opposite in this industry because effectively first to market is the only one that's allowed to quote from that market. And so it's one of those things that you kind of have two questions, who is my jockey and who is my horse? And if you get the right horse but the wrong jockey, you can get good return, but still not as good as you think. And so, so many producers earlier in the career really struggle when they go, hey, I want to sit down with you and ask you a series of questions to kind of change the relationship here. And the prospect goes, just go and get me a quote. And they say, okay, I'm like, hey, you're going to lose 95% of the time that you go get a quote. If you can't get over the quote conversation or the objection of I already have a broker, you're going to fail almost continuously. So I think that it's just an industry where it's like, man, if you are not a challenger, it is very difficult for you to go and create. And most of those really gregarious guys got the job because they're heavily relational, which if you've got. I've seen some people kill it. That what they did is they're relational, but they came out of an industry. We had a guy that was a, like a fireman and he basically just went after, like, firehouses and like some public entities. And his was fantastic because the guys loved him so much already. They gave him a crack at the insurance, even though his insurance knowledge was way lower.
- [38:01]
B
Yeah.
- [38:01]
A
Than the average person. And it didn't matter because he's bringing in other people from the company to that conversation. But for most people, you are literally walking in to a situation that if you follow how the prospect wants you to be evaluated, they are going to go with the broker almost every single time. The incumbent.
- [38:20]
B
When you talk about this, like, challenger notion, are there ways that insurance companies can vet for this as they're bringing talent through the door?
- [38:28]
A
I think the biggest thing is asking, hey, how did you build your book? Like, right off the bat, a good salesperson can describe the process they go through and why they were successful. A bad salesperson is successful by territories. Right. I was just handed a good territory. And so even though I look good, there's really nothing I could do. And so that's always kind of the first thing for me is like, hey, how did you build your book? Tell me the questions that you asked. Tell me what you're doing. The second thing that I think is really helpful is just kind of asking like, hey, what does your prospecting activity look like? Great producers keep track of their numbers because this is where it kind of goes a little bit against what I was saying, but I just fundamentally believe it. If you give me someone that is awful in a meeting but can consistently get meetings, he's just going to build a bigger book than someone that's awesome in meetings but doesn't get him very often. And so the guy that makes 10,000 calls a week, I'm just going to bet on him almost every time. And what I've seen really consistently, the best prospectors all keep track of their numbers. And so if I ask you, tell me, how many calls do you make a week, tell me, what time do you block in your schedule for prospecting? And you can't explain that to me, it is a huge red flag. I don't think you're going to be able to get through the door. And this is an industry where really the wheat is separated from the chaff in your ability to set appointments. There are a lot of morons that have built amazing, massive books because they can set appointments. And there are a lot of brilliant people that have flamed out because they never could get a CFO to sit down with them. And in this industry, especially, like, on the benefit side, everyone wants to get you to meet with the wrong person. And so what I mean by that is, I call the CFO and I go, hey, I want to talk about your insurance spend. They go, great, let me connect you with hr. And if you don't have the ability to say, like, no, I'm not going to talk to that person, I need to talk to you. Because this is a financial spin. We do amazing thing with hr. Once you've decided if you want to work with us, that person's really going to struggle because they're going to end up constantly with fake decision makers. So I will also say the last thing in the interview when I push back, this is a hard job. I don't think you can do it. A good challenger is going to tell me why they can do it, and they're going to be, like, really aggressively pushing against that. The best salespeople we've ever seen hired by our agencies all say the same thing. The agencies were like, when we started telling them why it was hard and why they couldn't do it, they dug their heels in more and told us why they were going to be even better than we thought they were going to be. Like, I love that. Like, you. If I. I know a couple of them that have started telling him, like, hey, you have to get appointments. Like, ooh, you're going to measure me? And I'm like, you don't think you can set appointments? Like, we're going to have a problem. You're not going to make any money.
- [41:13]
B
You talked a little bit earlier about this. 50% will be dependent after the first three months of. If they're booking a certain amount of calls each week. Like, do you see even. Even communicating that type of expectation upfront, Whether it's on the job postings or anything else, like, you're starting to weed through the people that are like, I'm not taking that type of risk.
- [41:31]
A
100%. The losers are really focused on making sure that their secured salary is super high. The winners are really focused on making sure their commission structure is really high. And so you're 100% right. The comp structure. We always tell people like, hey, the comp structure weeds out most of the losers before they walk through the door. And it will read out the rest of losers after they've walked through the door because they've realized, hey, they can't do it.
- [42:01]
B
Is it easier to just start an insurance company or is it easier just to go buy your way into it and then, and then adopt all these incredible principles?
- [42:10]
A
I would tell people, hey, I'm the type that I'd want to start it. And part of that's just like the entrepreneurial aspect now it's not easy to do. I don't think either it's expensive to do one and there's a chance that you're going to buy a really bad practice and it's going to be really difficult. It's tough to do the other. What I have seen is really, really successful producers who can build massive books are usually the ones that are like, hey, I want to go out on my own now. I want to build this new thing. I've been lucky to work with some like really impressive individuals that have moved away and built these shops. The other thing is a lot of times when you go to purchase a shop, there's just some cultural stuff there that can be kind of tough because these things are so like a lot of times close knit. The family owned it forever. So a lot of times the people that are like the glue in an organization, well, they leave with the family because that's the only reason they hadn't retired yet. And so you walk in, you're like, oh man. Now I will say if there was an agency that was on Eos and was running really effectively, like I've had clients on Eos that sold and I'm like, yeah, if you could buy an EOS shop, that's awesome. The problem is you probably have to be a private equity firm at that point because those shops are selling for so much. I don't know anyone with a really well run practice that's going to sell it on the cheap to like another individual. It's just not normal.
- [43:33]
B
Got it, got it. All right, I'll just, I'll scratch that one off the list.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah, same with me. That's what I've been trying to do for a long time. That's always at the end of focus day. I'm like, by the way, how much you guys thinking about selling this thing for?
- [43:44]
B
I, I, I could see it immediately. Like, it's just, it sounds like if you've got the right processes in place. Which it sounds like Blueprint plus eos specifically Harrison like it, it's magic at that point. Keep the culture vets, vet the town before they come through the door. Let the ones go like it. And obviously like I'm simplifying this to the degree in which people are like oh that must be easy. Why doesn't everybody do it? But it just sounds like a good systematic framework to be able to create value.
- [44:14]
A
I'm inclined to think so. I know obviously I'm a little bit biased in this but I mean right off the bat, I mean I'll be the first one to say like EOS works really, really well in the insurance space. There's so many things, it's really funny. A lot of the practices that Gino, when he really started putting together these things for EOS blueprint had touched like a lot of strategic coach things. So a lot of the things they were already doing like kind of naturally fit into this. I think having like a really sophisticated sales process obviously is really helpful and Blueprint does that. I also look, I love that I have insurance experience and so sometimes I can speak insurance individuals language. But I also would say look, just an insurance company that just hops into EOS with any implementer if you follow the practices and actually start holding your people accountable. Because I think insurance has an epidemic of not holding our people accountable and letting losers hang around everywhere in the organization. Not every shop does it. So I don't want to like be offensive to a bunch of shops, but I think most shops know like, yeah, we've got one or two account managers, we've got a guy that's been here. I will never forget my dad talking to me. This was, I don't know, 10 years ago where one of the agencies we worked with was telling us, like we really think the guy's going to turn the corner this year. And dad's like, well I hope so. He's been here eight years and he has $20,000 in his book of business. I've been telling you for about seven that you need to fire him. Like it's, it's this idea of like do you realize how much money you've poured into this guy for how little return? And so if you've got a culture where you're measuring things and then like actually holding people accountable to those things, insurance is ripe to really grow in meaningful ways.
- [45:53]
B
Do you see producers that the residuals on this are so interesting? Like it sounds like you can get somebody out of the gate and like hustle for, you know, three to five years. And then like, do you see high producers eventually just start less producing because they've got the residuals and they're like, why am I gonna. Why am I gonna sacrifice golf?
- [46:12]
A
For sure. So that's. That's why. First of all, I mentioned earlier, like, in that accountability chart, sometimes you have to draw, like, hey, we have some seats that the roles and responsibilities are different. They are validated producers that have built a book over a certain point. And what we need from them is to keep their top 20% of accounts. And that's okay because again, they're funding all the hiring of the new producers. So we don't want to fire this because I have had some agencies are like, does that mean that we need to. Should we be aggressive and fire this producer with a $4 million book? Absolutely not. Like, that is a silly idea. Probably half that book's going to walk out the door, use that producer to hire new. The other aspect of this, most producers, once you've been in this and you've built a decent sized book, it's kind of like how an EOS we're taught is like, hey, at a certain point, most of my clients, my new clients come from my older clients. I'm not having to do as much. There's really no cold calling in EOs just because EOs works best when someone's excited about EOS and is excited about me. So I want introductions where I'm walking in and people just have some level of comfort with me because the ask is pretty high when I walk through the door of what they're needing to do. But it's still one of those things that these producers that have built a pretty large book, they're not cold calling most of the time anymore. They're getting referred by their other clients. I've had some producers that are genius that go, all their top 20% of clients are like, let me meet your CPA to make sure we're aligned. And then the CPA starts introducing them to everybody that's like their top 20% of clients. They're like, you're the only broker that's ever walked in here to actually make sure that the financials line up with what the insurance is trying to do and vice versa. So there definitely are some big fat happy brokers. That's what we call them. And hey, I love those big, fat, happy brokers. If you've got a $3 million book, the agency adores you, like, stay here.
- [48:02]
B
Yep, that makes sense. There's I've heard different philosophies on, like when you bring consultants in, like do they have the background or the insight specifically into that industry or do you find like an outsider bring them in? I have my own opinions on that, but I'd be curious in yours because it seems like when you walk into an insurance you have so much expertise and so much knowledge. It's like, has that been incredibly helpful or at times has it been hurtful? Both.
- [48:33]
A
I mean honestly. So it's one of those things, the double edged sword right where I walk in, I'm like, man, what I'm really useful for a lot of times. And I tell them all the time, hey, I have two hats that I'm going to wear in this session and the first hat doesn't come off until you tell me you need me to put on the second hat. I am your implementer. That is what I do in this session. Occasionally you're going to ask for insurance Harrison to give you some feedback on something and I'm going to give you that advice and then put the EOS implementer hat back on. And obviously I'm still. It's really just being the coach, but it's because I don't want them to get to. Some people will want you just to give them answers on everything which is not productive for them. It teaches them how to not ask the right questions. At the same time, when I see a team build a scorecard and I know the scorecard is missing the things that make insurance successful, I usually will toss those things on the board and go, hey, I'm not telling you you need these, but can I explain why I see some other clients using these so that you can think about if they're important to you and that when you think about it, it's basically the same. If you remember your EOS binder when you're in the scorecard section, you turn the page and it's examples of measurables. I just want to do the same thing. I want to give them some examples of other industries measurables. So I think that when it comes to being able to answer specific questions, especially when it comes to right people conversations, because of my insurance knowledge, I'm very comfortable pushing in on producer conversations when they're saying, well, I think he can work or maybe he can't, I'm very comfortable asking some very difficult questions. So and laying out, hey, I'm going to tell you, with most of my clients, if this is the answer to these questions, this person is not successful. The Problem is for me, and this is where the double edged sword there will always be a part of my brain that goes, well, I think they should have this rock. And I just have to remember like it's not my job to tell them what rock they should have. It's the same thing I love. My uncle always says this as he goes, look, we're not gurus and the answer is always in the room. He goes, but sometimes you guys are being idiots and you have the wrong answer and it's just kind of the truth. And. And I have to remember when I'm in those sessions, like I don't know their agency inner workings. I know the industry. I cannot try to answer their rocks because also just hurts them for the long term. I want them to graduate. Like I want to be around as long as they want to have me around. But I want them to get to the place that they're saying, hey, this is actually like changed our organization. And the ones, the relationships that have been the worst for me are the ones like I've had one that we only did like two days and, and it was not a match. And I realized it pretty quickly. And a lot of the problem was they only wanted me for insurance knowledge. They were not insured or interested in EOS stuff. And so they seemed interested in it. But then like my favorite story from that day was when we did Core Focus. They were telling me it was how it was a waste of time. They're more sophisticated than my other clients because they already have three mission statements. And I'm like, that's not good. Like that's the problem. But the thing was they still wanted me in the room because they're like, well, you can tell us a bunch of insurance answers and we want those consultant answers. And so that's the biggest problem is every now and then I'll be, hey, you are miscasting what you want me to do. And my pride will be like, I can do that. Maybe I should do that and have to remind myself like, hey, that's, that's not my job in this room at all.
- [51:54]
B
You talked a little bit about graduation. Like what's your, what's your philosophy on, on like quote unquote graduating?
- [52:01]
A
So my biggest thing is I just tell them all the time when I try to describe graduation is I want you guys to be able to run all of this without me in the room. If you decide that having me in the room is productive after that point, I'm never going to tell you that I won't run a quarterly for you, but I'm going to start telling you. So I just had a client graduate in Atlanta, and I started telling them for a couple sessions, hey, guys, you guys are pretty close to graduating. I think you could do it. So it was really funny. He called me about a week before our last session. He goes. He almost like, apologetically, like, man, like, I think we're ready to graduate. And I was like, brian, I wouldn't have told you this 180 days ago if I thought you guys weren't ready. Like, you guys realize I get paid when I show up there, right? Like, I want to be with you. Like, it's a good thing for me. But I also want you guys to be facilitating this outside the room. And the biggest thing that I kind of just realized is if I try to remove the concept of graduating from them, it will limit their ability to move the tools throughout the organization, because they have no reason to move it throughout the organization. What they think EOS is, is they think EOS is me spending time with them quarterly and helping them sharpen their tools. That is a small piece of EOs. What EOs effectively is, is it's moving all these tools in the organization. So at every level, it's being executed. So even my clients that have told me, like, hey, we don't plan on ever not working with you.
- [53:28]
B
Yeah.
- [53:28]
A
I still push back and go, hey, like, I love you guys, too. Thank you for that. Number one, you're going to get tired of me. I'm a Jenkins. There's a reason why the Jenkins work together. None of us can get a job. It's a pyramid scheme. We just keep hiring each other. But that being said, if you can't run this without me, you're probably actually not running it with me. And that's the biggest issue.
- [53:50]
B
Oh, that's powerful. Yeah. My whole thing, especially because of your insight into this and my whole thing with graduation, was always this idea of, like, yes, did our leadership team understand EOS enough? We trained it because once we got to a certain point, we wrote it all the way throughout the organization, which meant, like, we had many US Implementers as department heads that were leading their own core function areas. I just always had this thing of, like, you know, if I'm in the room as the visionary or even if it's the integrator, but someone has to facilitate the conversation while running back to their seat, putting on, you know, their hat, and then trying to participate as an equal. I just always found that so, so challenging and having that third party that can, you know, push probably a little bit more is what's always important.
- [54:39]
A
So again, I obviously love being an implementer. I think there's a ton of value in it. What I hope for a lot of my clients when they get to graduation is that so much of the in the business stuff for the person that like facilitates the session has been moved throughout the organization. That when they're like the person running accountability everywhere, that's really all that their quarterlies are is, hey, it's me continuing to run accountability. And so I'm running the agenda, making sure we're doing this. And I think part of the difference too is once they get really good at it, everyone's taking a little bit ownership of the facilitation of the meeting. Even though we still want one person going, hey, I'm going to make sure we run the agenda. But everyone starts going, I think that goes in ids, I think we need to stop there. And so that takes a little bit of pressure off the person that is like primarily running it. Because you're right, what I don't want is, hey, I'm going to leave so that now one of you can be promoted into implement a role and now we have to fill the integrator role again, like that. That's helpful to anyone.
- [55:39]
B
That's super interesting. I'd never looked at it like that. And I like that perspective where it's like the integrator is actually already doing kind of implementer ish work. And that makes a ton of sense and a lot easier to transition into. Oh, gosh, I can't believe we're already out of time. The last two questions, number one, and I think everybody probably already knows this, but just wanted you to kind of talk about it, which is like, what do you look for in a client? Are you, are you, are you flying out of Texas to go meet people? Are you looking geographically? We'll start with what that looks like for you.
- [56:13]
A
Yeah, so I work with clients kind of all over the US So I'm in Texas. My furthest client is in Oregon, was just with them this week. But I'm just kind of all over the place. The biggest thing that I look for with clients from a size perspective, if they're insurance, you know, I want them to be at least 2 million just because it's one of those things where I'm like, hey, I want this to be a good use of your money. And so there's some smaller than that that I can work with. But if someone's you know, hey, we just started this thing. I've got a $500,000 book. I'm like, you need to pay money elsewhere before you pay money. To me, that's not smart. But my largest client is 120 million in revenue, and they're like, 450 employees. So obviously that's not necessarily target market, but they still follow everything. They do an amazing job. What I'm looking for with a lot of these clients is really kind of like, frustration or grind. And what I mean by that is, like, they're excited with where they want to go, but they're also recognizing, like, this what we built, like, can't do it. And so almost all of them, when I walk in, their organization is incredibly flat. And so it makes, like, focus day really powerful when they start sitting down and moving things around. And so anyone that just kind of tells me, like, yeah, like, I enjoy what we do. I just want to get 10% better. I'm not sure you're going to want to do this, because it goes back to that status quo versus, you know, change. And so almost every client I work with, it's the same thing of, like, hey, something has happened. And a lot of times what's happened is, like, a younger person is now the one that's in charge of the agency. And I want to change this. I want to do this a different way. And that doesn't have to be the case. I have some that. That is absolutely not the case. But most of them have some sort of kind of inciting event of like, hey, I now see this is frustrating. We can't scale. We're capped at this point. But, yeah, kind of all over the US Though.
- [58:10]
B
Interesting. Are you. I meant to ask this question earlier and what you talked about with, like, younger people kind of getting in, are folks seeing that, like, they keep calling it the $10 trillion silver wave or silver tsunami or something like that, where basically you've got a whole bunch of people that are now going into retirement. Is that heavily impacting the insurance or is it pretty. Pretty blended.
- [58:30]
A
So most insurance workforces are very heavily weighted to older producers. And so a lot of them started doing a great job hiring younger producers. And so the big confusion for a lot of them now is, how do we move these books? And the problem is a lot of them want to do it, like, fairly. And my problem is I'm like, I don't want to do that. I want to reinforce good behavior. And so the best way to hand down a book is, hey, for every 200,000 you write, we'll give you 200,000 of another book. So I want to incentivize people, like, do this activity and you get this. So a lot of like companies, that's just an aside, but a lot of companies I'm seeing, insurance brokers I work with are they've just hired their young workforce or they've realized, hey, we need to hire our young workforce. So more than usual, I'm dealing with a lot of like, I'll have a bunch of 70 year olds and then a bunch of 30 year olds and it's like, okay, hey, maybe next time we don't have a 40 difference. Like, maybe we just kind of continue higher and move them up. And I do work with a lot, you know, are in their 40s and 50s as well. But in general, yeah, it is for this industry. And again, it just goes back to when's the last time you talk to a young person about to graduate college? You go, what are you doing? They're like, I'm really excited. I'm going to be an insurance broker. Like, that's just not in their brain. And I wish it was for more of them. It's like, hey, if you go into software sales and you kill it, you're going to make $250,000 a year and you restart every year. What if instead you went into insurance and 10 years in your base is 350 before you add a nickel of commission? Isn't that a better life to live? And so that's what I'm trying to tell people to do.
- [60:05]
B
Love it, love it, love it. Recruiting on the show. I love it.
- [60:09]
A
Do it.
- [60:10]
B
Okay, so someone just listened to this whole thing and they're like, I need to talk to Harris about implementing EOS into my business. How can they get ahold of you?
- [60:18]
A
So first of all, you can email me harrisonlueprint Biz or Harrison Jenkinsos Worldwide. Both those emails I keep a pretty close eye on. If you search my name, you can find my microsite and you can send me a message on there. Um, I just. In general, if you reach out to. The last one is if you're. If you're also someone going, hey, I heard about that blueprint piece. I'm interested. Blueprint dot Biz B I Z. You can send inquiries in there. We're pretty easy to get a hold of. I'm always kind of trying to keep a lookout. But yeah, just shoot me an email. Would love to talk to you.
- [60:54]
B
Love it. Thanks so much for, for coming on. Like, this has been. This has been. We're going to have to change the title of this episode. Something with the insurance, because it's just such a powerful episode of, like, what Insurance companies that are stuck, some of the actions they can take, some of the things that they can look at inside of their business. Maybe there's some other places we can promote this to get in front of that audience. But this was an awesome conversation. I appreciate you coming on.
- [61:18]
A
Yeah. Hey, thank you again for reaching out. This is super fun for me. I really enjoyed it. So it went crazy fast, too. That was a blast.
- [61:24]
B
I looked at the clock one time. It's like 10 after. I looked at it two minutes ago, and it was like we were at time.
- [61:30]
A
It's like, crap.
- [61:32]
B
But we'll. We'll figure out how to keep this going. Maybe we'll do a second episode. Yeah.
- [61:36]
A
Yeah. Would be happy to, man. Yeah. Hopefully I didn't bore you too much or over talk, but this was a blast. So I'm a talker. If you can't tell again, it's a Jenkins thing. It's a mistake that you said, like, let's talk.