← Confessions of an Implementer
Confessions of an Implementer
The Challenges and Rewards of Implementing EOS in the Dental Industry with Carson Clark
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an EOS Implementer, a podcast by Talent Harbor. We share unique stories of EOS implementers and the companies they've transformed to give you a rare glimpse into the successes and the challenges of the system in action. I'm your host, Ryan Hogan. Let's jump in. Hey. On the show today, we've got Carson Clark. And the directions that this conversation went was just simply incredible. We talked about rollup strategies and rollup strategies as it relates to the dental industry and how EOS can be applied across multiple dentist practices. And Carson's life through discovering where his true passion was and his navigation through understanding that time is the most valuable asset and that's what he valued the most. Therefore, letting that drive a lot of his professional decisions. I had a blast talking to Carson. Hopefully you've got a blast listening to our conversation. And coming up next, enjoy. So one of the things that I did want to talk about today was really about kind of your professional background and professional journey because you've gone from, like, a huge company, and it reminds me a lot of, like, I guess I still am in the Navy, but, like, I'm in the Navy, and it's this monolithic organization where change takes 10 years and all the processes are built. And then you started kind of navigating in other places. And so, like, what was driving that?
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B
Yeah, well, it's interesting. So I feel like in universities, they really push big companies because the big companies give them tons of funding, and it looks really good on their slides when they're like, we had 95% placement within three months of graduation, and here's all the brands you know about. So that's kind of what I felt like. I was fed was like, if you want to be successful, go to a huge company. And I studied supply chain, and my professor was like, whirlpool supply chain. That's where you want to go. So I went there, and it was a great experience. But my email was clarkc35, meaning there was 34, at least 34 other people with my initials, 100,000 employees. I met some terrific people that I still keep in touch with and love, but I just knew it wasn't for me. Another short story. I'm verbose here, but I remember sitting all these people I loved, people who made great money, too. We had the open office concept, and I was looking around and I was like, would hate that job. Would hate that job. He's always stressed, never happy. And I was like, I don't think there's a job here. I would want to do.
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A
And at that point you're like, what? Well, bring up the startup life or the entrepreneurial stuff that comes with eating glass every day. Was that your frame of thought at that point?
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B
It wasn't yet. I guess I hadn't read enough like Justin Welsh posts or something, you know. But I decided I wanted to go be a leader at a smaller company and then go run a smaller company. And so I went to a company that was like 100 employees and it really was the only time I've ever been a wrong person at a company. So in our eos world, we talk about right person, right seat and I had such a good core values match previously I didn't realize that it was possible to have such a bad core values match. And so when I went there, I quickly learned like, wow, this is not what I thought it would be. So I kind of like started really big, went smaller, wasn't for me, then went to another firm that had great culture match. And that's kind of where it started clicking for me that hey, this is pretty cool, like you can make an impact very quickly. I know everyone by name, so it was a bit of a progression and journey, but now I'm unemployable now I.
- [04:07]
A
Would say I feel you on that and I feel like they say it's for the better, but I don't know, it just never feels like there's much stability in not being employable but always chasing, chasing something. One of the things you just said there that resonates so hard, like we get into this right person, right seat and I think whether it's the company starting to acknowledge like we've got the wrong person or whether it's a self identification of the wrong person, I don't know whether it's ego or what it is shame. But it's something that typically prevents us from acknowledging like we're not a good fit here, like there's no possible way. And being on kind of both sides of that, it's easy to look at and say like, I wouldn't be probably a good fit at like a Tesla cult culture. I don't necessarily want to work for someone else and bleed for 18 hours a day versus something else out there. That may be for me, but it's two different cultures and I think we tend to get so wrapped up in this, whether it's departing a company voluntary or involuntary, but like we screwed up and like, no, like a culture defines or values define like what that culture appreciates, how it operates in the absence of leadership. And it really has nothing to do with you. If it's not a fit, it's not a fit. But what was that like? Were you like, I should be able to win here, or were you immediately like, no, I see. It's not a fit, and no harm, no fault.
- [05:21]
B
There was learning and play. I mean, when I was at Whirlpool, it was a prestigious leadership development program. And the food I was being fed is like, you're going to be the CEO one day. And I was really well connected with a lot of people that were seven, eight levels above me in the organization. So I just felt like no matter where I go, I'm going to become the CEO of that company. So I think that was one thing. I didn't realize that, how different they could be. And you're right, though. And there's this, like, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and there's shame. You feel shame if you leave? I think so. For a lot of people, they just try to make it work or they suffer and their spouse has to hear about how they hate their work so much every day. And the reality is, I believe in the abundance mindset. I believe that there is a company for everyone that you could go and be very happy and be a great fit at.
- [06:25]
A
When you think about some of this navigation that you've had, would you say that your definition of success working at a larger company was that I'm going to be CEO? And, like, that's initially how you were defining, whether it was because of institutional coming up through college, or just onboarding there. Was that your definition of success at the time?
- [06:46]
B
Absolutely. Kind of title, size of company, all of that. And that shifted over time where I remember talking to a friend who was more in the entrepreneurial world, and he told me how much money he made, and I was like, what? Like what you're doing is not even that cool or sexy or impressive. And I realized kind of the opportunities that are out there for the bold and the brave, as we could say.
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A
And so how do you define success today? What drives you today? And how do you frame it without the big company and the title? Like, what does success mean for you today?
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B
Freedom. I think that's the word I'd use, and maybe sounds cheesy, but a couple of things behind that. Freedom of time is one thing. I remember a boss I had, I was working like 80 hours at the time a week, and he wanted to give me this project that was going to be like 20 hours a week. And I said, I can do it, but something has to give. Like, what would come off my plate? And he pulled out his phone and put 24 times 7. And he said, that's how many hours there are in a week. Like, you'll figure it out. You're fine. And I pulled up my computer. It was a picture of me and my wife. And I showed it to him. And I was like, this is what I care about, and you're not getting more time from me. And it was kind of like a moment where I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. In that moment, I was like, I need to find a way out of here. So having the freedom of time. So why time is so important to me as well. So I have a son with cystic fibrosis. So he was born with a rare genetic disease. When he was born, it was very traumatic. Like, within a few hours, he had to go in an ambulance to another hospital. My wife went in a separate ambulance to that hospital. And then I was, like, getting all the stuff, getting our car and racing down where he was going to have surgery. We didn't know what was happening. And the company that I was at at that time, was that where I was a wrong fit. And they were like, hey, where are you? Are you committed to this thing or not? Because I wasn't at work for a few weeks, and I was figuring out that, hey, my son has this really rare genetic disease with low life expectancy. And they just were not understanding of that at all. And for me, my son, I have another one now. But my son shepherd is a big reason why I have to own my calendar.
- [09:34]
A
And when you think about your priorities kind of going through that, it sounded like you were kind of already on that track, because the example you gave was the picture of you and your wife. And then now you have this, like, did that further kind of solidify or was there even a greater pivot at that point to, like, what's most important for you in life?
- [09:52]
B
I feel like it's been more gradual, and I'll be honest, I struggle with this still. Although I am very family motivated, I'm also very ambitious, and I want to make really good money. And some of that is motivated by my family, and some of that is like, I just want to be my best. So I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. I'm always learning how to do it better. But having kids has absolutely changed. And being married, I don't want to live at the office anymore. I Want to have a full life and experience the full range of emotions and life experiences, not just a lot of work.
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A
So once you discovered you were not a fit for that organization, you moved on. And where did you go after that?
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B
Yeah, so that's when I went and I was running a group of dental practices. I met a gentleman who was like, hey, we're looking for someone who is really good in operations. And it was good timing for me. And that's kind of where it went. The, the real story is, after I got out of the NICU with my son from that company, they fired me. And I was very angry with them. The day I got fired, I got a bill from the hospital for 130 grand for all my son's surgeries and all of these things. And I'm like, well, how's this going to work? And I was looking for options and solutions of what do I do next? And I was applying big companies again. And I kept coming in second in the interview process. And something kind of clicked where it was like, you know what? I don't want to depend on other people anymore. I don't trust other people in that way. I love people, but I just can't trust them fully with like my livelihood. And I had the thought of dentistry. And So I called 10 dentists and I said, what problems do you have? And they gave me their problems. And then I made a one page document that said, hey, I'm a dental consultant and I solve all these problems. So I got four people that were interested in like giving me projects and three of them offered me job opportunities. And one was this group which paid less, much less than other offers I had. But I love the culture that I saw there. And having just come from such a crappy situation, I went for the culture. And when I joined that company, it was a situation where like a bunch of different practices that all looked like they were running totally different from each other. We had a leadership team and a group of owners that were totally at odds with each other and profit is declining. And that's where eos, like my intro to eos, came, because a friend was like, you should read eos. So we did the whole thing. We brought in an implementer and totally transformed that business over the period of two years. I feel like I said a lot. And then I brushed over the fun entrepreneur stuff though, which I know you were pumped about. So let's dive in.
- [13:25]
A
Let's dive in. I was actually going to take us towards eos because I'm dying to know it sounds like EOS transformed that business. Do you prefer traction or get a grip? Which one do you love more?
- [13:36]
B
I like traction, personally. For myself, I do find get a grip is an easier read for people that like a story. So I was an integrator in my past life, so I really like knowing, like, the nuts and bolts of how things work. So traction I like. So if I was giving out books and I met a visionary, I'd be like, here's get a grip. If I met an integrator, I'd be like, here's traction. So it just kind of depends on the audience. Little pro tip, pro tip.
- [14:05]
A
There you go. And so you went out and you found an implementer. Is this all in? Today you live in North Carolina ish area.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah, in the Raleigh, North Carolina area. So at first a friend was like, you should read an attraction. Read the book. Our leadership team read it. We started trying to put it together. For a while we loved it. But then I didn't even know you could use an implementer and then found out you could. And it's like, hey, let's try this out. And so I was kind of like, yeah, we've been doing this. Like, we're pretty good. And then after the first session, I was like, crap, we haven't been doing this. So it just was really transformative for the business. And we addressed some situations that had kind of been swept under the rug for a long time, and we really repaired relationships that hadn't been in a good place. And over the time period, you know, we increased our profit 55% on EOS. So I've got it on my shirt this side, I guess, like, I love eos. Eos made me so much more confident as a leader. It made me feel like I know what to do. It connected on deep levels with me just experiencing it as a customer of it.
- [15:24]
A
And how many different dental practices were there?
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B
So there were seven dental practices of the group I was running. We did sell to a larger group that had 40 practices across north and South Carolina, lots of them running on eos. And it's amazing how you could see that. And, yeah, we partnered with them. I took over 20 of the practices that I was running across north and South Carolina. And they're a great group and growing quickly. And honestly, I love them. I keep in touch with a lot of the people there. But again, it was kind of like, hey, this is just going to turn into a large company. Even though I love the people here, like, I found out I'm an entrepreneur. And I can't go back. So that's kind of when I made the jump of I'm just going to start my own thing. I'm loving eos. I feel like that's all I'm teaching people to improve their practices is eos. Like, let's just make it official, like a referee with the whistle and jump in.
- [16:28]
A
It's fascinating. When I think about eos, I think about roll up strategies all the time. By the way, in dental, I've got a list of probably at least 50 different businesses where I'm like, this is a roll up strategy. Dental's on there. But I know it's a used strategy already, but I've never thought about acquiring companies. And I'm not saying there's a big difference between different dental practices. But to me the struggle that I see is like you would have a lot of people trying to operate independently. And when I think about like let's say you have a whole bunch of, well, Burger Kings would be a bad example. But generally when you think about dental practices, a lot of that revolves around the actual dentists themselves. And so usually their names are right at the top and they've got a few of. But how do you take EOS and translate that into several different kind of brick and mortar disparate things? Was this just about providing a framework and common language for all of these individual dental practices or was this really kind of seeing this more holistically? And there's a leadership team over top that's rolling it out?
- [17:28]
B
Yeah, so that's what most people are doing. It's called a dso. A Dental service organization. And so basically dentists are like, hey, I love being a dentist, but I hate being a business owner. I hate hiring and doing all of that. I hate doing all my finances and doing all my IT stuff. Can you just do that for me? That's what these DSOs are doing at the dental roll ups. And so you'll have a leadership team that's more of like the headquarters central management team that's doing all of these services for all of these different locations. So that's like where it's slam dunk, super easy to apply eos. Where it can be more challenging is if you have all of these separate locations and it's the shared by all part of the vision basically and the accountability chart, like do you have people operating in that way? And I'll tell you that some dental groups nail this and are exceptional and they're large doing this and others can't operate in that way. So it really takes a commitment to the owner, employee, rules of the game. Just because you're an owner doesn't mean you're on the leadership team. So it's all about that accountability chart, making sure you've nailed that. And it's all about can you have one shared vision and can everyone buy into that?
- [19:04]
A
You just nailed it. Cause I was coming back to this accountability chart, like that's where my brain gets stuck. So when you think about the accountability chart, one of the reasons I'm asking this, because I'm definitely going down the roll up path eventually. I don't think it's going to be dental practices, but where do they fall on the accountability chart? So when you think about dentists, did you have like a dentists core function area or maybe you called it operations and then they were all underneath that and there was kind of like one representation for them. So how did you account for the actual dentist?
- [19:33]
B
This is the $17 million question. Honestly, two ways that we tried. One was like, hey, we're just going to have them roll up through operations. The challenge with all of that is like, okay, so you're telling me that a dentist that makes three to six hundred grand is reporting to the practice manager that makes sixty grand a year. So the challenge is that they're a really well paid mechanic with not the business savvy. They're like, I just want to do patient care. I don't care about any of the money stuff. And then you have the people making 60 grand a year who are like, we really care about the money stuff. And there's this imbalance. And then you layer in the DSO management team and the dentists are like, well, we hate them because they only care about the money and we only care about the patient care. So medical services are difficult culturally because of this. And we had them roll up through operations and then we created a seat that was a dentist and it was just like clinical practice or something. It was a owner dentist who was a leader in the organization. It was valuable having him in that seat. And then the dentist reported through there.
- [20:57]
A
It's brilliant because the only way I could see that coming together was like you had a head dentist that wanted to be kind of a part of that, which is kind of counterintuitive or counter productive for what the dentists are already trying to do. Like the reason that they're a part of DSO is because they don't want to worry about this stuff yet. There needs to be one that's representing kind of all of them. It's. It's almost like a mini union, weirdly. So how do you make sure that you set the right core values in which the six or seven practices are all going to adopt? Like when you're going through your vto? And again, this is probably a very imperfect process. If there's one thing that I've discovered throughout EOS over the last probably seven, eight years is like, you're constantly learning each day, and there's different things that you got to try and test. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But how do you ensure that the culture that you're building at the DSO level is something that all of the practices want to be a part of.
- [21:51]
B
And want to buy into another $17 million? Question 1 Is there needs to be a natural core values match between the DSO and, and the dentists and the dental practices. So if there's not that, the whole thing is going to be a pain for everyone. Like, if there's not a core values match at its core already there, it's going to be hard for everyone. So if the DSO had done their core values before they partnered with all these dental groups, and then it's kind of like, hey, this is who we are. Who are you?
- [22:29]
A
So here's what I see with the idea of rolling up accounting firms, not just like the opportunity and putting them all together, but like the information that you'll have on other companies to be able to go and acquire them. Like, I think there's a huge opportunity here. Should we talk about this over beer? Should I come down to North Carolina?
- [22:47]
B
You should definitely come to North Carolina. I'm not a drinker, but I will get some water and lemon in there and I will talk for hours on this. You're right, though. So when I opened up my business and I just had a few simple questions, I was like, oh, I just need to find a CPA. I called 20 CPAs and no one answered and called me back.
- [23:08]
A
There's such an opportunity here.
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B
There really is. And it's just like, what other industry can you do that in and just be like, yeah, we're slammed. We're totally busy. We never respond to anyone. We don't take care of anyone at all, but we're slammed. So then on the flip side, what if you were great? Like, what if you were great at servicing clients and had amazing CPAs? Like, what could you create with that?
- [23:39]
A
We're on the same page. The two things that come to mind, and I don't know if it'll work out like this. Actually let's talk about this just a bit because I think it applies a little bit to the dso. So my idea is to go out and roll up accounting firms and do two things. One, look for target acquisitions. Call it between like 10 to 15 million. Because the organizations are big enough at that point where it shouldn't, at least at that size, be owner operated. Like that person should be leading and they should have other people in place. All too often I think there's the $1 or $2 million great shops, but like you would come in and then you would just be an owner and someone would have to run the business. But what I'd like to do is go and roll up accounting firms, put EOs in place. So find ones that are like they're doing okay, but they don't even know what EOS stands for. So put in EOS and then place an integrator and go find the next. When you think back to the dental practice, like if it's only two or three dentists in each practice, like you probably can't afford to place an integrator in every single practice. Do you think that that would work for 10 to 15 million dollars companies?
- [24:42]
B
Absolutely. All day long. And the reason, I mean a couple one is accountants are really risk averse. Turns out, and there's this huge number of CPAs who are retiring and not as many coming in and they're really risk averse and not entrepreneurial. So honestly, even just for the fact of having a company running it, doing those things better that they don't do and manage and then having these risk averse people come in as employees, kind of like dentists are associate dentists. You're basically having associate CPAs instead of them being owners of the firm and you're saying, hey, I have a well oiled machine that we've figured out. Just come and I have a really safe, stable income for you and a good life and we're going to make tax season a lot better for you than if you were doing it on your own and dying and suffering.
- [25:42]
A
I love that. Like it's almost about creating a pipeline like directly from colleges and being able to do that through the culture that you've built and of these other things, finding fresh talent, indoctrinating them into the values of the organization. Sign me up. I'm on board for this. I'm there. Let me know when, when you're ready to go. You guys went from self implementing to finding an implementer, like I guess through both phases. But like what was the biggest just kind of like holistic EOS implementation challenge when you were doing it the first time?
- [26:13]
B
One is, I'll say, when we did it on our own, I felt like I was really pushing it onto everyone and people like, were reading and kind of liked it. But when we used an implementer, it just made it more legitimate for one thing. And then there was another voice in the room like that was loved eos. Like I loved EOS the implementer. And they were just really experienced at helping our team navigate through things. Like there's a difference between trying to get put a VTO together and you feel like you're the decision maker in the organization and you're like trying to be collaborative with your team. And then when you have a third party who's like really pulling in everyone's insights, it's better teamwork, I found. And it made it more enjoyable and easier for me because I didn't have to run the meeting and make sure that I felt really good about our product at the end of it. It was more like I could clue into more listening what everyone's saying. And we just got to a deeper place when we used an implementer and our biggest things were the things I mentioned where it's. We just couldn't hide from the hard things anymore. We had to address them. Like EOS just shined the light and it was like, well, are we going to live with it, change it or kill it?
- [27:45]
A
I 100% agree. So when we were self implementing, we were going through the same exact thing. There was skepticism. So the day after Vistage was always the probably most depressing day for my senior leadership team because it's the day that I came back with a thousand new ideas and they were like, here we go. And EOS was no different. We had an EOS implementer that came through and did one of those guest speaking things on the Vistage series and next day to my team and we're gonna do this. And while there was a little bit of buy in, I think it was mostly skepticism. And this is another, oh, it must be March 15th. And we all know what happened yesterday somewhere with other business leaders. But what you just said, like resonates a lot because it's about like the relatability of it. Meaning if I'm just coming in and I'm like, hey, I read this fancy book and it says everything is simple, let's go do it. That's a lot more challenging to get the buy in because you need buy in to have an effective rollout. Like, everybody has to be bought in, they have to be excited and everybody has to become kind of a mini implementer because if they're not, like, you're not going to get it all the way down the organization. And so you need a team of four to seven, whatever your SLT is, of champions of this new process and the comments that you just made about been there, done that, not only someone that shares in the excitement from the implementer, but also somebody that has lived it. If I'm coming to you and I'm like, hey, I've got a team of people and they're hesitant but optimistic. The minute that you come in and you start talking about your experiences with EOs, not your implementation experiences, not like, oh, I've got five clients and everything's going great. But like, no, I lived and breathed this. We self implemented, we went through this and then we went out and we got an implementer and you know what happened? Magic. And these are all the things that happened. What better way to get buy in than sharing your own personal journey with EOS and saying like, it worked for me. And it worked so well that I became a certified implementer because of this. Like, of course everybody's going to sign up at that point.
- [29:44]
B
I love it. That is a genuine true story. And I wish you were in every one of my 90 minute meetings because you'd be buying every time.
- [29:53]
A
Yeah, just bring me as a sidekick and a rah rah everybody. So you read the book Traction and then you're like, let's go do this. And you got the buy in and everybody started to use different parts of it and like, you're starting to see traction, but at the end of the day you're like, we're missing something. You go out and get an implementer, you're like, oh, it's a whole new world and it just unlocks a new type of business for you guys. So now you're a professional implementer, you do this for a living. So what are the challenges that you see when you're coming in from the outside instead of the inside? What are some common things that you're helping leadership teams work through?
- [30:28]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. You do see things repeat people talk about athletes and they say the game slows down for athletes. And you start doing enough of these sessions with your clients and I just like hear a comment and it's just like. And then I'm just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it is interesting to be in that seat because you're just asking questions and letting them learn and go through the process. But the people is definitely a common issue. I see a lot of really dysfunctional teams. And so it's really, how can we improve trust in this organization? Are people bought in to what you want to accomplish with the vto, or are they just given lip service? But then all their actions are saying the opposite and they're really fighting against your vision. So having the right people in the right seats is huge. I see that problem all the time. So if I put them chronologically, problem number one is that the visionary and the integrator aren't working well together. That, to me, is the first thing I'm looking at any company I meet. It's, what's the strength of that relationship? What's the strength of those two individuals in those two unique roles? And if there's trust there, like, I have clients who have a remarkable relationship. Visionary, integrator relationship. They're unstoppable. Like, everything is easy because that relationship is so good. From there, then it's, do they have right people in the right seats? If those two things are in place, I'm like, hey, the rest of this is going to be pretty easy. Honestly, if those two things are there, then it's like, now we just need a little bit of accountability and process and consistency, and you're going to watch this thing take off.
- [32:31]
A
Do you ever see right person, right seat, but either hesitant or struggles to buy into eos, or are you automatically. Not initially, of course, but like a couple quarters in, you're like, listen, great person, believes in the culture, gets it, wants it, has the capacity, but at the end of the day, just doesn't buy in. Like, do you see that?
- [32:52]
B
I guess I question if they're truly a right person, if they're not on board with where the rest of the leadership team in the organization is going. I would say, have you really looked at those core values deep enough?
- [33:07]
A
That's a great point. Someone just listened to this Carson. They're like, that's my guy. Like, I need that person. I don't know whether they're going to be local to North Carolina or you're going to have to fly or they're going to bring their team in. But someone listens to all this and they're like, I want to work with Carson. How do they find you?
- [33:23]
B
Multiple ways. I mean, one, shoot me an email@carson.clark osworldwide.com. go to my LinkedIn. There's ways to contact me from my LinkedIn those are probably the two easiest ways to get a hold of me. I will travel for the right client. I won't travel for the wrong client. But if there's a great fit, I've got a handful of other travel clients. I'm willing to take on a couple more. If you're in the Raleigh, North Carolina. I mean, that's just a slam dunk. Let's talk. Right?
- [33:59]
A
Let's do it. And also, when you said that email out loud, the one thing that my brain shot to is you're at an organization now where it's not Carson Clark487osworldwide.com so congrats on that. Last question for you is if there's one implementer you can go and have a beer with, who would that be?
- [34:19]
B
The guy who comes to mind is Kevin Armstrong. The reason why I just like Kevin's style. Kevin is calm, he's been there, done that. But he's also a builder. Like sometimes people are just a hammer. And Kevin is a builder. He's a builder of people. So I appreciate that about him.
- [34:43]
A
We'll tag him in this post and see if we can convince him to join. Carson, thank you so much for coming on and I'll be down to North Carolina play some golf soon.
- [34:50]
B
I love it, man.
- [34:53]
A
Confessions of an EOS Implementer is brought to you by Talent Harbor. To find out more about Talent harbor and our fractional services and talent search solutions for businesses that operate on EOS, visit talentharbor.com and then make sure to search for EOS Implementer in Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Google Podcasts, or anywhere else podcasts are found. Make sure to click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. And on behalf of the team here at Talent harbor, thanks for listening.