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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession?
- [00:22]
Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Megan Blau, founder of Blue Copper Design. Megan started her firm in 2018 with a mission to make beautiful design more thoughtful, inclusive, and accessible. Rooted in her Arizona upbringing, her work blends desert inspired warmth, Spanish influences, and an unmistakable Southwest charm. Thank you so much for joining me, Megan. I'm so happy to have you.
- [00:42]
B
Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Caroline.
- [00:44]
A
It's gonna be great. Okay, tell me a bit about how you got here.
- [00:48]
B
Okay. So I've been in the design industry for almost 10 years and had my business since 2018, so.
- [00:55]
A
Amazing.
- [00:56]
B
Yeah. So what's that? Seven years now?
- [00:58]
A
Congratulations.
- [00:59]
B
Thank you. Thank you. I know, like, for some reason, the seven year mark, I was like, we're here like five years. I didn't feel it. I was like, still a baby. And I'm like, yeah, so seven years.
- [01:09]
A
Is like, I'm just a year behind you. And I'm getting there. For sure. I feel the same way.
- [01:14]
B
Yeah. And I don't know, but I also feel like I'm at a seven year itch too. Not like to leave, but just like, you know how they say you, like, transform every seven years? Like, yeah, that's how I feel. Like I'm like, okay, I know everything and nothing all at the same time.
- [01:30]
A
Yep, I think that's so true.
- [01:32]
B
Little tangent, little tangent there. But ultimately, like, I got into the design industry because of my disability, so I use a wheelchair. I've used a wheelchair for 16 years. I'm paralyzed. I have a spinal cord injury, so I'm a quadriplegic. And as you can imagine, like, life completely changes when you're completely able bodied and then one second, you know, you have an accident and you're disabled. So I was 17 when my accident happened. And so, yeah, I was like living with my parents and then moved out to go to college. And thankfully, like, the college dorm was pretty accessible.
- [02:09]
A
Oh, great.
- [02:09]
B
And it wasn't really until, like after college when I was trying to, you know, move out of the dorms and move in with my now husband, that I was like, there's like, no options for me and this sucks. So at 20, I bought my first house and remodeled it.
- [02:24]
A
Wow. Good for you. What a badass.
- [02:27]
B
Thanks. I know. I mean, it definitely was a Badass move. But it was like a necessity, you know? And thankfully it was 2013, so like a 20 year old could probably buy a house.
- [02:36]
A
Like, not anymore. Keep dreaming.
- [02:39]
B
I know. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, if it was now, I probably still would have done it. I would have found a way. But, you know, it was easier, definitely. And our contractor that we worked with was like, you should be an interior designer. And I was like, what? Which is like so ironic. Like, so unheard of. Especially wasn't like a. Yeah, like what? Contractors want more designers in the world. And he wasn't even like a high end, like luxury. He never worked with designers. Like, it wasn't in his wrap. But he was the one who planted the seed for me. And then looking back, like, I actually took design classes in high school.
- [03:12]
A
Oh, amazing.
- [03:14]
B
Yeah. I think I would have always ended up in design, but now I just have like this layer of accessibility. Like, my grandpa started furniture stores here in Arizona. All of my family worked there. Like, a lot of my family members are reps in the industry.
- [03:27]
A
Oh, wow.
- [03:28]
B
Yeah, so. But I didn't feel like it's in.
- [03:30]
A
Your blood for sure.
- [03:31]
B
Yeah, it's definitely in my blood. So I was like, okay, I probably was gonna be like, destined to be here, but now I get this co.
- [03:38]
A
Layer to apply to it, which I think is. So, you know, obviously the accident, I'm sure is not necessarily positive in your mind, but what a positive thing that's come from it, that you're not only were able to make the world more accessible for yourself, but for other people who need it. I mean, that's, That's. You've made an incredible silver lining.
- [03:58]
B
Thank you. Yeah. You know what? Like, overall, my accident was probably like one of the most positive things in my life, which I find that, like, a lot of people take that tragedy and can make it a positive thing. Like, I would have never met my husband. I would have never had this business. I would have never, like, become the person I'm gonna be. So for all of those reasons, I just choose to be like, you know what? It's a good thing. It's the way it's meant to be.
- [04:20]
A
And also that speaks to your character, I think, because I don't know if I was paralyzed at 17, if I could have left my parents house, gone to college, done all the things that you still did, like, you stayed on your path, you did what you needed to do, and it's really admirable.
- [04:35]
B
Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I Think like, one thing that I've just seen and learned is that the resources in this space were like non existent. And so they're still kind of non existent. I mean, besides me.
- [04:49]
A
So like you call me and everyone should.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah, and everyone should. But I was like, I was like, okay, so almost everyone with a disability or accessibility needs is having to remodel a house. Like, no house is coming off the rack this way. Like this is couture. This is not ready to wear.
- [05:08]
A
Like, exactly.
- [05:10]
B
So like there's such an untapped industry, like untapped market in this industry for including those accessibility needs. And at the time, like all I could find was like home modification companies. So it was either like a home modification company or a contractor that was like really scared. Luckily our contractor wasn't scared. So he, I was like, don't listen to the ada. Like, just listen to me, like scrap what you know about accessibility and just like listen to the words coming out of my mouth. And thankfully he did.
- [05:41]
A
Wow, that's so interesting. I don't want to interrupt you, but also, can you speak a little bit more to that about like how you feel that ADA is not actually benefiting like people like you? I mean, can you speak more to that?
- [05:54]
B
Yeah, of course. I know. I, I think people find it really interesting. So ADA is meant for commercial spaces. It's really only for public spaces, government buildings. And it also, like we, in our industry, we think of ADA when it comes to like building codes and things, but it actually encompasses so much more. Like it includes transportation, employment, like services. Like, so it's a huge act to do with the rights of people with disabilities. But it's like I said, it's just not applicable in a residential space. One, because the guidelines could either be too much or too little for the individual person or their family.
- [06:30]
A
Interesting.
- [06:30]
B
It also could be like, if you're just like trying to hit the code, you're going to miss a lot of things along the way and you could be like overcomplicating things or it might not work for your house. So like a great example, the ADA requires a five foot turn radius, like in the disabled stall or whatever. But like that's actually quite a bit of room. And if I was trying to redesign a bathroom and I was just like, we need a five foot turn radius, but my client can do it in three feet, like, let's move, you're losing.
- [06:59]
A
Two feet of usable space. That is really interesting.
- [07:03]
B
Wow.
- [07:04]
A
Because yes, obviously to your point, ADA only covers commercial, but we do try to generally keep co, you know, things to feel, especially when we're doing new builds. Like, obviously if you're renovating, you can't always change a 30 inch hallway to a 36 inch hallway. But when we're doing new builds, we do try to encompass that as much as we can. But the fact that it doesn't necessarily always have to be that way and it's based on the individual person, I mean, that feels like a duh. But I appreciate you explaining that because that is definitely something that I need to consider.
- [07:34]
B
Yeah, I think, like, that's people's reference point, you know, is the ADA code or even like universal design practices, which is like, to me, the terminology of accessibility is really important. So when people are like, I want my house to be universally designed, I'm like, you actually don't.
- [07:52]
And they're like, what?
- [07:53]
A
You're wrong.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah. And they're like, well, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, the universal, like the whole point of universal design is being as accessible to as many people as possible.
- [08:05]
A
Yes.
- [08:06]
B
So once again, like, great. For commercial spaces, honestly, we should be striving for that for commercial spaces. And like, the ADA should be the floor, not the ceiling. I love that for commercial. But like, for a house, like, I don't necessarily need to accommodate, you know, a child, an elderly person, someone with low vision, someone with mobility, like, unless I do, of course. And that's still like a customized thing.
- [08:29]
A
But when you're working with individual people, you can customize that to their disability or needs. And I mean, that is what truly makes it bespoke.
- [08:38]
B
Totally. And I mean, a lot of accessibility features are like, transferable between different diagnosis and different kinds of disabilities. But we're always tweaking, we're always changing. And I feel like once I came to that conclusion in my own, you know, with my own experience, I was like, that's when an interior designer does. Yes. Like, why aren't we doing this? Like.
- [08:59]
A
No, you make a great point. Yes, absolutely.
- [09:02]
B
Wow.
- [09:02]
A
Okay. Thank you for explaining that. So when you were working with the contractor on your home, you made it more accessible. He was like, impressed with you. How did you take the jump from doing it for yourself to doing it for clients?
- [09:15]
B
Really good question. I mean, I already had a bachelor's degree in something else, so I really didn't want to go back and get another bachelor's degree in design.
- [09:21]
A
And I don't blame you.
- [09:24]
But I.
- [09:25]
B
Was like, I also know I don't know a lot of things, so I Did a certificate like at a interior design school that I don't think is around anymore, but it was here in Arizona. So that was like six, six or so months. Learned like the basics of color theory. We learned drafting, we learned like, you know, history of furniture. We didn't do any softwares or anything, so I had to teach myself that. And then I used to work retail too, so I was like, maybe I'll start by blending like the retail side and the design side. So I worked at Ferguson for a few months and it was really fun, but like, not enough design for me, but I learned a lot, which all of the information I still use and like, still, you know, the Ferguson girls hook it up for me, which shout out to them.
- [10:08]
A
That's great.
- [10:09]
B
And then, and then I worked for a commercial firm for about a year.
- [10:15]
So yeah, in the beginning I was like, maybe I want to do commercial. And once I was there I was like, I don't really want to do commercial in this way. Which is actually funny because I have like a few commercial projects right now, but on that scale, I didn't want to.
- [10:27]
A
Well, they can be really fun if they're done in a certain way.
- [10:31]
B
Yeah, they were huge commercial projects. And I was like, this is boring.
- [10:36]
Like institutional design.
- [10:37]
A
I feel like it's almost. It bleeds into institution versus like, you know, full commercial. And I'm with you on that.
- [10:42]
B
Yeah. And then, you know, throughout that whole time, I just always knew I was going to end up at my own, have my own business. But I was trying to do like the smart and sensible thing and work for other people and learn. But like, once I realized I didn't want to do commercial anymore, I was like, it's kind of not fair for me to go to another designer because all I'm doing is daydreaming about what I want to do and I'm not going to be fully committed. And that's just not me. So I was like, here we go, let's try it. So I was 27 when I started my business. So from 20 to 27, it was a long design journey.
- [11:14]
A
I personally think your 20s are the best time to start a business. You have very little responsibility. Your bills are not that bad. Like most of you maybe have a dog. I started the company at 20 and God, I was so stupid. But I don't think I could now with like the amount of responsibility I have.
- [11:31]
B
And I think that's part of my like seven year itch right now where I was like, even though 27, I don't know if I would have taken as much of a plunge. I think I would have been more sensible.
- [11:41]
A
1000%. Me too.
- [11:42]
B
I'm glad I'm not like, I don't know. I just. I'm glad I took the risk. And I was like, I'm either gonna learn when I'm 35 or 27 or 45, you know, like, you still have to go through all the growing pains no matter what your age is.
- [11:54]
A
And if you hadn't done it, then would have been thinking about it until you did it. So it's like you trusted yourself to know that you could do it, which is, I think, a gift. That's great.
- [12:04]
B
And I don't even know how I got my first clients or anything like that. It was all a blur.
- [12:08]
A
I relate to that for sure. So from early clients to now, what are your favorite types of projects to work on? Are you exclusively working with people with disabilities? Do you take all types of clients? Tell me a little bit more about that.
- [12:24]
B
I do take all types of clients, but I've definitely focused more of like, you have to be within one or two buckets to be a client with us. So you have to have some kind of accessibility requirement. Whether it's like, for you or you just, you know, you're able bodied, but you, like, see the importance of it, which. We've had a few clients that way, which is fantastic. Yeah, usually they're a little bit older, and I love them. I love my boomer clients.
- [12:50]
A
Where they're.
- [12:50]
B
Like, wait a minute, like, I had to put my mom in a home and I need a roll in show at the minimum. So I'm like, cool, let's work together. So you have to fit into that bucket or you have to fit into a style fit. So for us, it's like that southwesty desert style. And if you don't want accessibility, that's totally fine. Usually those projects are furniture anyways.
- [13:10]
A
Sure.
- [13:10]
B
But like, if I remodel a kitchen or a bathroom, like, I don't care. We will be making it more accessible than we found it.
- [13:17]
A
Oh, definitely. Like, even if the person is not. Does not have a disability, it makes sense and is better for the world to make it more accessible.
- [13:25]
B
Exactly, exactly.
- [13:26]
A
I love that. And I'm gonna try to blend that into my work as well because I think that's really important.
- [13:31]
B
You have a little challenge with that. Being in Chicago.
- [13:34]
A
Yep, we do.
- [13:35]
B
Looking into historical, like, traditional kind of style, like, that is something that I. Yeah, like being in Arizona, all of our Buildings are flat, they're new. And by new, I mean, like, the oldest ones are in the 70s. Like, we have a lot more flexibility. And I was like, honestly, this is a perfect storm for me. Like, I live here. We have a huge snowboard population, a huge retirement community. Like, the foundation has already laid and made it a little bit easier to focus on the accessibility camp.
- [14:03]
A
But you also saw the opening and took it. And that's like the key piece. Like, you were able to see that there was that a hole that needed to be filled, which I feel like is when we find our niche and then get really successful, which is amazing. Yeah, that's awesome. So when you were talking about the two buckets, it sounds like one of them is aging in place. Is that what you would? And so we do build that into our work a lot. I find aging in place so incredibly important. I did a farmhouse renovation for my parents, and they're gonna end up selling it, of course, before they age there. Cause why wouldn't they? But the goal was for it to be a place that they could live in forever and, you know, have it be like, still really beautiful home that you wouldn't necessarily be able to be like, oh, this is accessible. But it just makes their lives a lot easier. Like, it's like a single story, you know, all of that. And I learned so much in that process. And no one would ever walk in and be like, they really prioritized accessibility. And I think that's the same for your work. Like, it's not screaming like, we are designing for accessibility. It's good design that's also accessible.
- [15:10]
B
Totally, 100%. I mean, when I say accessibility, I encompass aging in place. Barrier free design. Like, so the residential term I call accessibility is barrier free design.
- [15:21]
A
Barrier free design. Okay.
- [15:23]
B
Yeah, it's like, it's loose. We're removing barriers. Like, that's. I like that. You know, there's no. There's no guidelines. There's no codes to follow. There's no like height requirements or measurements or whatever. So aging in place is similar. Like there's. If you Google aging in place requirements, you're not going to find an official document with all things it's more customized. But I do think aging in place, it has a different perspective and like a different approach. So yeah, it could also include like financial management, transportation caregiving.
- [15:53]
A
Interesting.
- [15:53]
B
What's interesting about aging in place is sometimes you actually want to like take away features or make features less accessible in a house, which I know is counterintuitive, but like, for Example, like, if somebody has dementia or a cognitive decline, like, we're going to need to approach things from a safety standpoint. Like, for sure, maybe we need, like, extra features where, like, they're not going to be doing cooking. And so, like, we don't necessarily want them to have access to a guest or, you know, we. We actually want to put in a barrier to where they're going to need a caregiver to help them with, like, bathing or cooking or things like that. So there's like, different approaches and different things where we're talking, when we're talking about accessibility.
- [16:34]
A
And that's why someone hires someone like you, because you know the ins and outs and it's so complicated.
- [16:40]
B
Yeah. And I think, like, you know, everyone, you're gonna find a whole bunch of different conflicting information on the Internet and none of it is wrong. It's just, like, what works for you. And, like, what goal are we trying to achieve here?
- [16:52]
A
I love that. I think that's incredible. Congratulations.
- [16:55]
B
Thank you. Thank you. Thank.
- [17:01]
A
Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right then I tried Programa, and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your project schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it.
- [18:08]
Before we get into some confessions, what's a vice you partake in?
- [18:13]
B
Okay, like, back in the day, I was a good time. So my vices were a better time back then. They were cooler. These days my vices have, like, you know, betrayed me. So we can't do them anymore. Like, a glass of wine will send me, you know, for, like, the next day will not Be fun. And I'm just saying why I had to stop drinking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I still do like from time to time, but it's not sure, you know, only when you have like the next day to give up. But now my vices are a little bit more lame. I would probably say it's like Diet Coke and true crime, like basic bit shit.
- [18:48]
A
I think those are great biases.
- [18:52]
Diet Coke is, I feel like a common answer. A lot of people are fueled by aspartame in this country.
- [18:57]
B
I definitely think it's addictive. Like, I'll go through patterns where I'm like six months, like, I have to have a Diet Coke in a day. And then I'm like, okay, we're not doing this anymore. So for. I'll have to like detox for two weeks and then I'll be good for another six months. I won't need another one.
- [19:10]
A
The office, my office is run on Diet Coke for sure.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess true, like true crime, I guess it's not like to me, it's not advice, but sometimes I'm like, should I be listening to murder at 7 in the morning? Like, I don't know. Yeah, probably not. But like, I'm so interested.
- [19:27]
A
I'm the same. The same way. I do also think as a woman, like, I got into true crime, I think because it felt like a way to prepare and like protect myself. And it's then it's now morphed into, I think, a thing that is now really, I think more just. It's really just more entertainment than it is. Like, I think I'm learning from it necessarily. Like, I think I've let it, it get too normalized, personally. Like, I need to totally maybe take a step back.
- [19:56]
B
But I will say there's like things that I hear from like friends of friends or acquaintances or, you know, like, I'm. A lot of my friends are married and stuff, but so they're like locked in. But like, if someone's dating something and they tell me something, I'm like, I heard that on a murder one time. Like if, you know, like a murderer guy did the exact same thing. So, like, I'm not going to say you're going to get murdered, but you might, like, I don't know, I should be careful. Yeah.
- [20:20]
Which is probably not healthy, but I don't know.
- [20:22]
A
No, but unfortunately it's true. So that's the complicating factor here is that these things actually do happen and we do have to protect ourselves. So I feel like it can be complicated. Well, those are great vices, in my opinion. As someone who's in her 30s, I think those are great vices.
- [20:43]
I'm really excited about the confessions today, so let's get into it.
- [20:49]
I have a bit of a spooky story from a few years ago. I was working on a renovation in New England, a historic home in an adorable neighborhood. I love homes with character and charm, and this definitely seemed up my alley. The clients were a couple who wanted to restore it to create a long term family home and we were updating everything while trying to keep that old charm intact. I love a renovation and have worked in countless older homes, so at first the odd stuff didn't faze me. For example, the lights would flicker. Every now and then a door would slam in another room on its own, that kind of thing. You just assume it's bad wiring or drafty windows. I even joked once that that's what I got for liking houses with character. One afternoon though, I was there alone, doing some final measurements and checking the finished samples before the contractor came back. The next day I had a podcast playing quietly, but no music, no crew noise. Just me alone in the house. I was crouched down in the hallway, marking something on the baseboard when I swear I heard someone call my name from the next room. It was so clear and casual, like someone trying to get my attention. Not a whisper or anything dramatic. I froze for a second because I hadn't expected anyone that day. I called out, hi, in here. And waited. Nothing. I have chills all over my body. No. So I got up, walked through the kitchen in the front room, looked outside. No cars. Nobody on the property at all. I did a lap around the house, even checked my phone, thinking maybe someone had called. And it echoed weirdly. But there were no missed calls or messages. It freaked me out, but I told myself it was just an echo or the wind catching something. Weirdly. Okay, the rationalizations, it was the wind.
- [22:25]
I would have done the same thing. You don't have a choice, really. I went back to what I was doing and tried to wrap up quickly. My God. Good for you. Maybe 15 minutes later, it happened again.
- [22:35]
B
No, no, no, no, no.
- [22:37]
A
Same exact tone. My name from down the hall.
- [22:42]
Even writing this. Now I have chills. And so do I. Oh my God. I just remember freezing. I could feel my heartbeat in my ears. I didn't move for a good minute, just sat there silently, frozen. I eventually grabbed my phone, called my husband and told him to stay on the line while I finished up Because I was too scared to be there alone. What's he gonna do?
- [23:00]
B
What's anyone gonna do?
- [23:02]
A
What's a man gonna do in this situation?
- [23:04]
B
Woof.
- [23:06]
A
A few weeks later, once I'd stopped feeling completely ridiculous about it, I brought it up to the client in a half joking way. I said something like, has this house ever creeped you out? Expecting her to laugh, but she didn't. She told me she'd been in the kitchen one night and heard what she thought was her husband walking around in the hall. But when she called out to him, he was outside. Ooh. She said she sometimes heard footsteps or felt like someone was standing behind her when no one was there.
- [23:35]
That's when I finally looked into the history of the place. Turns out it had been in the same family since the 1930s. And one of the original owners, a woman, had passed away in the house. The neighbors knew the story too. And apparently other houses nearby had their own strange experiences over the years. I didn't go back there alone after that. Even when the project wrapped, I always made sure someone else was with me. There's just something about that house that never felt completely empty, even when it was.
- [24:00]
B
Woo. Yikes.
- [24:03]
A
What's interesting to me is that we have heard a couple clients who have ghosts. And often they say, like, they're harmless, they're nice.
- [24:13]
But it. But this ghost doesn't really sound like that. Like calling your name is freaking me out. That piece of it is the piece that I'm, Yeah. Having trouble with.
- [24:24]
B
Okay. Caroline, I've like, I originally found you from TikTok, and one of the sides of TikTok I've gotten on is Appalachia. TikTok. Have you been there?
- [24:33]
A
Yes.
- [24:33]
B
Terrifying. So I know she said that this house was in New England, but like this is some Appalachia shit.
- [24:38]
A
1000%.
- [24:40]
B
If you hear your name being called in the woods, like, don't answer, don't.
- [24:43]
A
Acknowledge, do not go. Oh. Whatever you do, turn around.
- [24:48]
B
Get out of there. Get out of there. I 100% believe her.
- [24:51]
A
Me too.
- [24:51]
B
I. So like before my true crime journey, I was in like hauntings. Me and my best friend in high school. Every day after school we would go home and watch the Discovery Channel. I think it was like a haunting. And then we would freak ourselves out. I'm obsessed. And what I was like as a kid, I was like convinced that my parents furniture store was haunted. Even though, like it totally wasn't. I was just like making stuff up.
- [25:13]
A
It's more fun that way.
- [25:15]
B
It is more Fun that way. I kind of, like, got. I mean, I'll. I'm not as much into, like, the paranormal.
- [25:21]
A
Sure.
- [25:22]
B
Content as the true crime content now because like. Like, she. Like you said, like, what are you gonna do? Who are you gonna call? There are no Ghostbusters.
- [25:29]
A
Like, no one to help you.
- [25:31]
B
There's no one to help you. Like, you gotta call Discovery Channel. A priest and even them. Like, it's like 50 shot.
- [25:40]
A
Exactly. Exactly. I'm honestly not sure my priest growing up could have taken a ghost. I'm gonna be so for real. I don't. I don't think been able to remove them.
- [25:49]
B
Like, what do you just burn sage? You put a crystal in the foundation. Like, what do you do?
- [25:56]
A
I think that's an interesting question. What do you do if you buy a house that's haunted?
- [26:01]
B
I don't know. And then I feel bad for the clients. I mean, obviously.
- [26:03]
A
Yeah.
- [26:04]
B
They're putting their life savings and their heart and soul into their forever home in New England. I mean, once again, like, a problem we don't have is that much in Arizona. I don't feel like we hear of a lot of hauntings. Not saying it doesn't happen, but, like, you know those historical homes back there? No gems.
- [26:21]
A
They are. There's some. And especially, like, in the south too. There's lots of weird stuff. Lots of weird stuff. I feel like, yeah, it's. The more history a place has, the more likely it is to have good and bad ghosts. And I think, yeah, New England is pretty known for it. Okay, well, as far as penance goes, I'm not sure who even gets the penance, other than. Other than. I mean, maybe stay away from historic homes for a second. Although in New England, how do you do that? Every home is historic.
- [26:50]
B
Even if you tear down and rebuild the land, the land has history.
- [26:55]
A
Yeah. The spirit's still there, unfortunately. I'm wondering if, like, a medium or something could help, like, someone who could, like, connect and figure out, like, what the woman wants or what the ghost wants and, like. Cause I have heard, like, sometimes they need to be, like, set free, quote, unquote. Like, if they're not fully passed over, because something's, like, keeping them here. People are clicking off the podcast right now. They're like, this girl is insane. Goodbye. We're turning this off. Okay, I'm sorry. My name is done.
- [27:26]
B
Maybe the medium can also tell them, like, their intentions. Like, are you a good ghost or are you a bad ghost? Like, the name is creepy, but it's like, are you going to start, like, throwing knives at my head in the middle of the night? Or are you just chilling?
- [27:39]
A
Can we just coexist and be friends? Or do you want to hurt me?
- [27:42]
B
Yes. Or do I need to be helped? Yes.
- [27:45]
A
Yes. Or that. Yes. Which is kind of sweet, honestly. Maybe. Yeah. Like a glass of wine, I think. Could be. Or a bottle. Could be good.
- [27:52]
B
Could be good. Could be good.
- [27:58]
A
Okay, let's get into confession number two.
- [28:02]
So I work for this big national showroom where you meet all kinds of people. Most of the time it's pretty routine, but a few months ago, I had a client who definitely stood out. One day I had this guy walk in. Mid 40s maybe. Dressed neatly, friendly. Nothing unusual about him. At. We started talking right away about what he's looking for. And as we're walking through the displays, I glanced down and noticed something around his ankle. At first I thought it was maybe a medical tracker or one of those fancy step counters, but it was bulky, black, and had that specific squared off shape that I'd only ever seen on people under house arrest in movies. I told myself not to jump to conclusions. Maybe he had a health condition. Maybe it's some new kind of wearable tech. I don't know. I was trying to be professional and move on. We kept walking, and he was asking good questions, clearly knowing what he wanted. We talked through refrigerator options, looked at different cabinetry lines, and got into details about countertop edges. At one point, we're over by the wine column section and he says, oh, I don't drink. I'm lds. I nod, make a note to skip the wine storage options and keep going. Totally normal. But I just couldn't stop noticing it. It's like when someone tells you not to think of something and suddenly it's all you can think about. I'm talking about drawer pulls and backsplash colors, but in my head I'm like, is that really an ankle monitor? What's happening right now? The meeting goes fine again. Smooth, polite, Nothing weird at all, beyond my own curiosity getting the best of me. He thanks me. We shake hands, he leaves, the door closes, and immediately I've already got my laptop open. I type his name into Google and within about 10 seconds, there it is. News articles, mugshots, Plural. Turns out he has multiple DUIs from different states. That thing on his ankle? Definitely not a step count. That was definitely a first for me. Although now that I think about it, I also had a lawyer call me to pay for materials because another client of mine is currently in Jail. I'm really beginning to wonder if felons are becoming my niche.
- [29:53]
B
Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.
- [29:58]
A
What a niche. I can almost guarantee no other designers working in that niche, so maybe you could.
- [30:02]
B
I know. Oh, hey.
- [30:04]
A
My God, that's hilarious.
- [30:05]
B
Okay. I feel like these confessions are perfect for me, like, bringing in my true crime knowledge. So. Something that I've learned recently, and I think it's, like, a newer thing. Like, people think house arrest is, like, you can't leave your house.
- [30:18]
A
Yeah.
- [30:19]
B
But a lot of the times, like, you can go places. Either it's like a mile radius or, you know, or they, like, put, like, your workplace in there or whatever. It's basically just a tracker, like, your microchips, like a dog.
- [30:30]
A
You can get, like, approval. Like, you could be, like, literally, you can be like, I need to go to this meeting at X building. Can I go? And then they'll let you or not let you. Yeah. I think house arrest is misleading because it's.
- [30:43]
B
You're.
- [30:43]
A
You can leave.
- [30:44]
B
You can leave. And.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah, you're right. Sometimes it's. Sometimes it's just, like, a mile. Sometimes it's 20ft, I think, if you're really bad. But, like, I do think that, generally speaking, they're letting people move about the world more than we think they are, which is always interesting. I also think that, like, of all the things you could have an ankle monitor for, I mean, a DUI is not good. Certainly should. Shouldn't drive and drink and drive. But I do think it's like, luckily he didn't, like, kill someone. Luckily it wasn't like a.
- [31:13]
B
Like a violent crime.
- [31:14]
A
Yeah, a violent crime.
- [31:15]
B
I mean, it's kind of violent. It's like, violent. Ish. But I mean, it sounded like multiple. Like, he has a problem for sure.
- [31:21]
A
Well, I want to be clear, but I'm not trying to be a DUI apologist.
- [31:26]
B
No, no, no, no.
- [31:27]
A
Tony, please do not drink and drive. And I think it's horrible. I just mean, like, of all the things that if you see someone has legal trouble, you look it up. It. Okay, well, at least I wasn't in danger. Unless they were behind the wheel of a car, and then maybe I would be, you know.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah. For the record, we are not promoting that. And honestly, like, maybe he really is, like, turning his life around. Like, he refused the wine fridge.
- [31:52]
A
So, like, who knows? And I do think sometimes, you know, obviously, alcohol, it can be an addiction. So, like, it can be a disease, like anything else. And sometimes the legal system can be, like, what shocks someone to change? And unfortunately, I wish it didn't come to that. I wish that was not the case, that it had to get to that point. But I do think sometimes people are able to really drastically change their lives after a big fall from grace. Like, that sometimes it's the only thing that does, which is.
- [32:25]
B
And I totally relate to her, Like, I would have immediately Googled that person.
- [32:28]
A
As well the second the door closed.
- [32:32]
B
I have done that before with a potential client after an inquiry, recall, after a few stories. And I was like. And then I was like, why am I not doing this more often? I should probably Google every inquiry and run a background check. And I haven't since. But, you know, we have to trust in the world.
- [32:49]
A
I need to do that as well. There's been a couple times where I've been like, what? Like, what do you. You find something out about a client, like, halfway through, and you're like, sorry, who am I working for? Like, it like, gets a little scary. You're like, oh, okay. Oh, no.
- [33:04]
B
Exactly.
- [33:05]
A
I do think, like, obviously, you know, this man was well off. So I also think that, like, if you're in a showroom buying all this new stuff, you have to have, like, some level of money. And so I do think, like, clearly he may be beginning special privileges, being able to, like, go shop for his home on house arrest. Like, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Cause that's. I mean, to your point, you can go to work, you can go to whatever, but are they letting you, like, go shopping for your house?
- [33:33]
I don't know. Maybe they don't.
- [33:33]
B
I don't know. Like, was your office in the same building as a showroom across the parking lot? Like, and, you know, maybe. Maybe he's just taking this little bit of downtime to remodel his kitchen, which.
- [33:42]
A
You know, he's like, I have some time.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah.
- [33:48]
A
He's like, oh, my God.
- [33:50]
B
You know, like, yeah, that's so funny.
- [33:53]
A
Okay, so penance wise, I kind of feel like this guy should leave Lean in White collar crime. There's a lot of those babies that, like, are. Have plenty of money when they get out, but are tarnished reputations. People don't really want to be at work with them. Like, you never know. It could be a lucrative niche.
- [34:11]
B
I know. Like, does he go on a speaking tour? Does he write a book? You know, but you got to do it in a way where it's not, like, super preachy, where, like, I was bad and now I'm good and now all you guys need to be good too.
- [34:24]
A
Like, oh, first.
- [34:25]
B
Kind of like, I don't know if you've. Like, that gets annoying. Like, honestly, I. I watched the Charlie Sheen documentary on Netflix, which I had opinions about, but I didn't. Yeah, I didn't have a lot of opinions about Charlie Sheen before I watched it, but I was like, you know what? Like, he's not one thing about him. Like, he doesn't sugarcoat a thing. He's like, yep, I did it. Like, don't recommend, but, like, I did it.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah, exactly. He wasn't even necessarily couching it in, like, I did it. Like, excuses. I was pretty impressed with his, like, yeah, I did this. It was fucked up. I did this. It was fucked. Like, you know, I mean, that's. I think what all you can ask of someone who's, like, trying to recover is, like, being honest about the very fucked up things they did.
- [35:05]
B
Mm.
- [35:05]
A
Makes sense.
- [35:06]
B
So, yeah, so maybe that man can Charlie Sheen his life up, but, like, he should definitely make amends with the people who are closest to him first and then move outward.
- [35:14]
A
Yes, I agree. I also think potentially if he does. And I'm. I'm making. You know, I'm taking this all from one story, but if he does have funds, I do think it could be good as, like, a give back of sorts. You could start giving to, you know, like, cover rehab costs for people who can't afford it. Or, like, if there's something you can do to, like, help other people get to the point of recovery, I think that could be meaningful. I'm sure he's listening right now. I'm sure he's listening.
- [35:44]
B
That's definitely perfect penance for him.
- [35:47]
A
Yeah. And the designer or showroom person. Yeah. I think he should start working with more felons.
- [35:54]
B
I think the felon niche, like, hey, I love that.
- [35:58]
A
It could be lucrative, you know.
- [36:01]
It.
- [36:01]
B
Could be lucrative for white collar crimes. Like, you're not committing crimes.
- [36:05]
A
Exactly. Listen, go to those, like, camps that they keep them at. You know, hand out your business card when they get out of jail. I know you don't have a home and you have money.
- [36:15]
B
Hire me.
- [36:15]
A
I mean, it could be worse. I don't know.
- [36:18]
B
I think, like, networking events with lawyers.
- [36:21]
A
Great idea. Wait.
- [36:23]
B
Yeah.
- [36:24]
A
Go to law offices and drop your car hard.
- [36:26]
B
Start getting in with those white collar lawyer crime.
- [36:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, brilliant.
- [36:31]
B
Keep googling. Keep googling. Honestly, like, maybe even get a back. Like, subscribe to a background check.
- [36:38]
A
Yep.
- [36:39]
B
Website, like, pay the $10, especially because it's felons.
- [36:43]
A
Are following you. So I think maybe it's good to know which felons you're in bed with. Yeah.
- [36:48]
B
Maybe invest in, like, a security person or something. Some kind of security. Whether it's like, digital security or personal security, depending, Depending on your clientele.
- [36:56]
A
Yeah, I. Yeah, I mean, I think talking to attorneys and being like, hey, does your. Does your client need a home? I can do it. That's brilliant.
- [37:04]
B
Wow.
- [37:04]
A
Maybe I'll take the niche. No.
- [37:13]
Some questions for you, if that's okay, because I find your niche so incredibly interesting, and I think it's something that. That, like, in design school, to your point, we talked a lot about ada, and we talked a lot about, like, codes and hitting those codes, but there wasn't a lot of true emphasis on how to better people's lives. It was more about, like, the requirements. So accessibility is central to your design philosophy. Can you talk a bit about what that looks like in your work and any misconceptions you've run into along the way?
- [37:44]
B
Yes, I mean, I talk about that every day. So.
- [37:49]
I mean, how it looks like in my work is super customized to people. So, like, for example, people might think an accessible kitchen has to have lowered countertops at, like, 32, 34 inches or whatever. Not necessarily. Like, if someone uses a power chair, they're gonna sit up higher than someone who uses a manual chair. So usually 36 inches is fine. Even in bathrooms, like, it can be totally fine. I think we often think of accessibility as, like, something drastic, like someone's using a wheelchair, they're paralyzed. But there's a lot of different kinds. You know, some people have, like, lower dexterity or upper body movement. And so the way they, like, interact with their appliances, their faucets, their lighting, like, things they're touching, like, getting into the details of that is something we focus a lot on. And then also, a lot of diagnoses are either, like, progressive, meaning they, you know, maybe they can walk now, but they know in a few years that that ability is going to dwindle. Like some people. I guess I need a better word for this. Like, some people's ability is, like, ebb and flow from day to day. So they'll have, like, a week where they need to use their wheelchair, and then a month where, like, they can walk or something like that.
- [39:02]
A
So it has to play both parts. That's interesting.
- [39:06]
B
So whenever that happens, like, we build to the most involved, like, when your disability is at your worst. And, like, we're going to build to that to make sure that's accommodating. But we're not going to forget, like, your good days, too. So it's interesting. And I know that's really vague, but, like, you know, we have to say no.
- [39:27]
A
I think that was a great. I think that was a great answer. Also, it is so specific to the person, to the disability, to the diagnosis. So, like, I don't think. And I mean, that's why people hire professionals like you to do it, because I think it can be a lot more complicated than people think. What's a misconception you've run into to. Other than that it needs to be this, like, super involved thing.
- [39:52]
B
Yeah. There's so many misconceptions, and the Internet has pointed that out to me in the comment section recently where I'm like, what? Okay.
- [40:01]
A
What are y' all talking about?
- [40:03]
B
I mean, I think, like, the biggest misconception is that it's ugly. And to be honest, like, I know people are, like, stuck there, and I'm so beyond that.
- [40:12]
A
It's not even, like, a conversation.
- [40:15]
B
I don't even wanna have the conversation anymore. But, like, people ask me about it all the time.
- [40:18]
A
That's kind of crazy.
- [40:20]
B
Well, they're like. I always hear like, yeah, we want our house to be accessible, but we don't want it to look like a hospital. I'm like, okay, have you seen our project?
- [40:27]
A
Duh.
- [40:28]
B
Have you seen my house? Like, my house looks better than your house. Okay. And my house looks better than my neighbor's house. And my house. And anything we do, it's gonna look better than what it looks like now, regardless of the accessibility feature. So, like, I'm getting, like, over it. So I'm getting a little snarky with people these days. But, like, you know, when I get asked to be on panels and stuff, I'm just like, don't ask me that question. Like, Like, I'm a designer. I make it look better than it is.
- [40:55]
A
That's literally your whole job. And your design is not worse or bad at all because it's accessible. You're a better designer because you can make it beautiful and accessible. Like, that's, I think, a skill that most people don't have. So to be like. But you're sure you're not gonna make it ugly?
- [41:12]
B
Like, oh, my gosh, I didn't. That.
- [41:15]
A
You came to me, babe. You hired me. Like, of course I'm not gonna make it ugly.
- [41:19]
B
Like, what? Yeah.
- [41:21]
A
Makes no sense.
- [41:23]
B
Like, that. It's still the biggest misconception. I mean, I think the next Biggest is like, we're not gonna need, like only a certain or a small group of people are going to need accessibility. But like, I think the goal for most of us, if not all of us, is to get older. And as we age, things happen also. Like, life throws curveballs. I, you know. Yeah. Like I said, the comment section sometimes gets crazy where they're like, why would I manifest a disability? And I'm like, that's the most bizarre thing.
- [41:48]
A
Oh my God. Yeah, the manifestations got a little funny. Yeah, that's. I don't think that's what that means.
- [41:56]
B
What we've lost. We've lost the plot for sure. With. And I'm like, okay.
- [42:03]
A
And then, my God.
- [42:05]
B
Also, like, it's. I think accessibility can also be beneficial even if you don't have a permanent disability. That's another thing. Like, there's a lot of times where people's eyes get opened, where they have hip surgery, knee surgeries, something happens. Like they can't get up their stairs, they realize they don't have a bathroom. Like, they can't take a shower on the ground floor of their house. Like, and I. So yeah, it just. Like once. It's one of those things. Like once you have it, you don't notice it. But when you need it and you don't have it, you. It's like it's all you notice.
- [42:35]
A
Yes, absolutely. And I mean, that makes sense, especially when you've. When you go from able bodied to. Something happens and it changes the way you live. I have to assume that that's a lot more jarring than being born with a certain disability that you've gotten used to from a very young age. And you're not like, it was this and now it's this. I feel like that's got to be a piece that adds a level of complication.
- [43:01]
B
I would think so. You know what's interesting is like, we've worked with a few clients whose kids have disabilities and kids away with things, obviously because they're small and like, they can be picked up. But I always say, I'm like, okay, but they're gonna grow and they're gonna be harder to pick up and they're going to want independence. Like, they're going to want all the things that everybody else wants. Obviously. Duh. And so that's been interesting. I think, like, it is two different experiences, like acquiring your disability or being born with it. Like, I think it's different mindsets because, you know, obviously it's just a whole different life.
- [43:33]
A
Sure.
- [43:34]
B
Experience. Absolutely.
- [43:35]
A
Well, and yeah, to your point, I didn't, I mean, duh. But I didn't really think about like the. Obviously the way the parent also handles their disability and how they help them move forward in life. I mean, I'm sure can like be the difference, but people who are making their homes more accessible for their children, I mean, that should be the baseline.
- [43:54]
B
Yeah.
- [43:54]
A
Okay. What are some of your favorite ways to bring aging in place, universal design to your projects, other than what we've spoken about?
- [44:04]
B
Yeah. Like specifics that I love is I always start with the entry point to a home. It always gets overlooked. And I'm like, wait a minute, like, how are we getting in here?
- [44:14]
A
This is how you enter.
- [44:15]
B
Yeah. Whether it's like even a back door, but like garage door, front door, like if there's a million steps up there, like, I don't really care what's in the house if I can't get in there myself. Um, so, you know, maybe adding a ramp or adding, adding something, like whether it's permanent or temporary, like having a solution and being able to think that through is important. Having a bedroom and a bathroom with a shower, like a curbless shower on the first floor of a house, I think that's a really good way to get around like the historical home thing. You know, like I said, in Arizona we have a lot of one stories, but I know that that's not common and that there's a lot of. Lot of two, three story homes across America. But you'd be shocked at how many don't have a bedroom and a bathroom on the first floor. Besides, like a powder room.
- [45:04]
A
Most of ours that we work on don't, especially the historic homes. I would say 10% have a bedroom on the ground floor.
- [45:13]
B
Yeah. So I would prioritize that. If you're going through renovations on those spaces and then beyond that, like making sure every bathroom has a handheld shower. Like, I know once again, these kind of seem simple, but it's overlooked all the time.
- [45:27]
A
No, but it's things that not everyone thinks about. Yeah, that makes complete sense.
- [45:32]
B
Even if, like, you know, I feel like once you have a handheld shower, you find so many uses for it.
- [45:38]
A
Like. Yeah, I mean, I have a handheld shower and I love it. So it helps you clean your shower. Like there's a million.
- [45:43]
B
Exactly. Hair wash days, cleaning your shower, things like that.
- [45:47]
A
Yeah.
- [45:47]
B
So that's a super simple way. And then also like putting the backing in for grass, grab bars. So even if you're not going to add grab bars in, you know, at the time, which I don't use grab bars. I don't have grab bars in my personal shower. But adding the backing so you can put them wherever, wherever they need to be. And you're not just like limited to where the studs are.
- [46:08]
A
That's really smart.
- [46:09]
B
Because a lot of those simple changes, like as we know as designers, where people are like, can we just move this wall? It's like, well, what about the floors? Do you have extra flooring? No. It's like, okay, well, we can move that wall, but we're gonna have to replace the flooring in your house. Same with showers. Like, can I add a grab bar right here? Well, no. Cause there's no structural support, so I have to take the tile down. And then we're doing a bathroom remodel.
- [46:29]
A
Like it's a domino effect if you don't plan for it. Yeah, exactly. That makes sense.
- [46:33]
B
But it's so cheap, simple, and easy to do. Like if the walls are open.
- [46:37]
A
Mm, okay. Good to know. A question that I don't have written down, but I do want your opinion on. So I just worked on a commercial space, and when we were doing the job, there was lots of communication between myself and the architect and the contractor and the client about access. Because the space needs to be like, it's open to the public. And also the company that I was working for, their brand is being accessible to everyone. And you know, but when I was in the process, I found that the architect was trying to push to have the accessible entrance in the back. So like, the experience that I had been building for two years was only for able bodied people, even though technically it fulfilled the ADA codes. And I mean, we went back and forth about it for months. Cause I just couldn't. It felt so opposite to me of what we should be doing as designers. To just be like, well, we fulfilled the requirement. Who cares? And I mean, obviously I'm sure I know your take on that, but do you find that that's fairly common? Like, how should we be thinking about this? What's a way to like, talk to architects? Talk to CL them to understand the. The importance of making sure that every single person can walk in in the same way or can enter the space in the same way.
- [48:00]
B
That is. I'm so glad you brought this up. Like, this is. To me, this is like stage two of accessibility where I think we're still fighting at stage one.
- [48:09]
A
Yep.
- [48:10]
B
Maybe it's stage three, I don't know, but it's definitely like a more advanced level. Like we Are in AP classes of accessibility. Now here is my, my take on it. Separate but equal is never really equal.
- [48:21]
A
Yep. Amen. Best way to say it.
- [48:23]
B
We have learned that in multiple ways over and over and over again. So having for me, as a wheelchair user, trying to find the little disabled icon wheelchair guy and follow around to like where I have to go is so degrading.
- [48:41]
A
Absolutely. Why are you having to have a worse experience?
- [48:45]
B
Exactly. And I think that's like where I once, when I said earlier, I get frustrated when people are like, but we don't want it to look like a hospital. I'm over that. Like, I'm over that. I would like to have the same experience, the same ease of use as everybody else. And it's completely possible. It's about decisions, it's about intention, and it's about forethought. And so you had that and you were fighting for that. And I do find that architects get in the way a lot of that because their head is so into code where we are very much into like experience where like, oh, that breaks code. Like, oh, can we make it work? Like, yeah.
- [49:23]
A
I don't know if it's gonna be a better experience for this particular client. Maybe it makes sense.
- [49:28]
B
Figure it out.
- [49:29]
A
Or if it's meeting the code but not meeting the need. What's the point? Like, what's the point of the code? I don't.
- [49:38]
Yeah. It's something that I really struggled with in the process and I ultimately lost the battle. And it is not. I. It's part of the project that I feel like a little bit of shame about. I think that I didn't try to force it further. But when you have an architect telling a client we have fulfilled the requirement, they're not gonna say, Great, let's spend 20,000 extra dollars to make it. And that's the piece that I have a hard time with. With. To your point, separate but equal is not equal. I think that's like the most simple and easy way. And if they're a good person, that, that should be like, you know, pretty self explanatory. But is there a way that you have been able to explain it to people? Or is there something that we can explain to our clients other than just that, yes, they should feel this way. But like, is there something I can be saying to people? And if no, then no, I struggle with that.
- [50:34]
B
And people ask me that question often. But I do think I have like a unique clientele where they already, like Valley value the accessibility.
- [50:43]
A
Yeah.
- [50:44]
B
And so I'm not having to fight as hard against that. But I still fight. And I think it comes down to what I said earlier. Like, it's not. Accessibility does not affect a small group of people. Yeah. Even if we were to classify like 20, 25 of the US population is considered disabled.
- [51:03]
A
Wow.
- [51:04]
B
Now that means a lot of different things, obviously. But that also doesn't include, like I said, those people who just had hip surgery, knee surgery. It doesn't include the senior population. And so like, there's all of these different categories of people that can benefit from like a curbless entry, not having five steps up into the entrance of your restaurant. You know, like an automatic door opener of any kind. Like there's something called the curb cut effect. And I recently did a blog about it. But it's a common, like theory which, where curb cuts, you know, for sidewalks and things were made for wheelchairs, but people with strollers benefit from them. Scooters, bicycles. And like everyone kind of tends to gravitate and congregate around those curb cuts because it's natural for us as humans. So taking that concept into other parts of accessibility, I think can translate where it's like, well, I don't necessarily. I can open a door on my own, but if it has an automatic door opener, I'm gonna use it. Cause it's easier.
- [52:03]
A
Yep. Regardless if I'm walking or rolling 1000%. And to your point, people with babies with strollers on crutches, cause they just broke their leg. Like, there are so many uses for it that are not just what you think of when you think of the like, standard accessibility. And that's the piece that I think I have to do better education on. For sure.
- [52:28]
B
I think that, I mean, even like, like, look, if the handicap stall is open in a public restroom, nine times outta ten people are gonna take it because it's a better experience.
- [52:38]
A
Like, it's a better experience. You have more space, you can do your thing. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah.
- [52:42]
B
Like it's, There's a reason why that one's always put. So I think like putting it into perspective like that for people, there's only so much you can do. They're going to have to value it. Unfortunately, people start to value it when it's too late.
- [52:54]
A
Yep.
- [52:55]
B
When they need it or when they have a bad experience. And that's another, like, that's another misconception, honestly, is like, well, I'll just deal with it when I need it. It's like, have you ever gone through a renovation?
- [53:04]
A
Have you Two years, babes. Like, what are you doing?
- [53:07]
B
Where are you going to shower? Like, for those two years, I think if people, like able bodied people knew how people with disabilities lived in their homes, they would be appalled. And I'm appalled. And that's why I started my business because, like, I will not accept that. And I'm shocked at the people who do accept it, to be honest. Like, shout out to my disabled community. Like, don't accept that. Like, what are you talking about? That you have to, like, like some people have care caregivers because their space doesn't work for them, not because they're not able to use inaccessible space.
- [53:37]
A
They could be more independent if the space lends itself to that.
- [53:43]
B
Even me, Like, I only. So last year was the first year I ever traveled alone. And it was stressful for me, but I was like, I have to figure this out. So for 15 years, like, anytime I went anywhere, I had to bring my husband or my cousin or my friend pretty much. And it was just because there's like, I always ran into something that I couldn't do. Like I couldn't rent a car. I could use the hotel bathroom if it was the accessible room, but I couldn't get on the hotel bed because they make them like incredibly high. Like, it's. I always ran into something. But like, I. In my own home, like, my husband travels all the time. I've been alone for a long time. Like, I can live. I don't need a caregiver. You know, I help him more than he helps me.
- [54:24]
A
Like, well, and what a testament to, to well designed, accessible spaces, making like so many people's lives, like the function of people's lives, which is what we should be focusing on in design. Better. When you're working in this space with lots of money and not a ton of gratitude, it can wear on you. And I think what a testament to you as a person that you are focusing on something that like, does bring a lot of value to the world, I think.
- [54:53]
B
Well, thank you. I do appreciate that it doesn't come without its challenges, for sure.
- [54:57]
A
Of course.
- [54:58]
B
I mean, even it's. I feel like I'm doing a psychological experiment, like, and I should probably write more things down. But even, like, our clients are very stuck in their ways of doing things, like, horribly. Well, this is how I figured out how to get in my shower. And I'm like, but that's dangerous. Can't we make it better? And they're like, but this is what I, this is how I do do it. And I'm like, but you don't have to. But you don't have to. But if you feel like you're willing to change. So, like, that, that's been interesting. I mean, I thought when I first started my business, I was like, here I am, everyone. Like, I'm here to save the world, but sometimes the world doesn't want to be saved. And that's an interesting thing to run up against too, where you're like, oh, like the ableism in disabled people's mind definitely still exists. You know, it's interesting.
- [55:47]
A
That's an excellent point too. I think in some ways our society has beaten down people with disabilities so much that they're willing to accept. And I don't mean not to put the onus on them. We have done this. This is our fault. They are just trying to live in a world that we have created that is not for them. And so they're just accepting what they can. But it doesn't have to be that way.
- [56:10]
B
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I feel that too. Like, there's a push and pull of like, look, the world isn't made for me. And, and I understand that, but.
- [56:21]
I understand that mother nature does not really make a lot of space for wheelchairs.
- [56:26]
A
Sure.
- [56:26]
B
But human, these are human designs.
- [56:29]
A
We are making these decisions and we.
- [56:31]
B
Can, we can solve it. Yeah, we can solve it. So it is very disheartening. Like, I'll hit points throughout, you know, my days where I'm just like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, it feels like even the people that care don't care that much to put their money where their mouth is. Like, there's a lot that I've realized. I didn't realize what a big uphill battle I had. And I think that's part of my seven year itch too, where I'm like, yeah, okay. Like, I kind of maybe thought I would have been more along or like, more things would have been changed. But you know, there's a lot of like. What's the word?
- [57:05]
A
Like, pandering.
- [57:06]
B
Pandering. That's the word I was looking for. Yes, there's a lot of pandering where it's like, we need this. It's amazing. But it's like, well, let's do it. And they're like, well, I don't know, like, maybe we could put the entrance in the back of like, no, no, no, no, no.
- [57:20]
A
Like, sorry, that's not what we're talking. Those are two. No, that's not.
- [57:23]
B
It's cheaper to do that it's like, how much, though?
- [57:26]
A
Yeah.
- [57:27]
B
What's. Everything has a cost. You know, the price and the cost are not the same thing.
- [57:31]
A
So I think that's. Wow, that's a great point. The price and the cost are not the same thing. Yeah. Because what it costs to that business, that environment not being success. Accessible, I think, is like, how are people not seeing that the more people that are in your space, the more people that can access your space, the more people who can spend money there.
- [57:51]
B
Yeah.
- [57:52]
A
I don't. That feels like point A to point B to point C to me. And it's getting stuck in the middle when it's like, so you don't want more people in your space to come spend money here?
- [58:02]
B
Like, girl, I got money to spend.
- [58:03]
A
Yeah, exactly. There are plenty of people who are. Who have disabilities, who have plenty of cash to blow, who want to. If spaces are accessible. I mean, it's.
- [58:13]
B
Yeah.
- [58:13]
A
Feels very obvious to me, which I'm sure to you is frustrating.
- [58:17]
B
I think we're getting a lot more traction with the aging in place. I feel like that's like our gateway drug into accessibility.
- [58:22]
A
I think you're right about that. Yes.
- [58:24]
B
Because a lot of people have boomer parents. A lot of boomer parents have whatever the generation before them is. And honestly, those people have money. Yeah. So it really, you know, a lot of these things really does come down to a money talks kind of thing, which I understand. Like, I own a business. I freaking get it.
- [58:42]
A
Like, yeah, money runs everything. We get it.
- [58:44]
B
Yeah. We totally get it. But, like, I think maybe, you know, kind of understanding what's important to your client in that way and speaking to that is something that, you know, I'm preaching to myself. I'm not the best salesperson in that way, but, yeah, I think being like, hey, like, you're saying more people means more money. Like, the disabled population is not this, like, you know, heathen group with no money. Like.
- [59:08]
A
Right.
- [59:08]
B
There's a lot of people out there, and it can happen to anyone at any time. That's like, the unfortunate trail is not. And it does every single day. And, you know, we all just hope it doesn't happen to us. But, like, the moral of the story is it might, and it might happen to someone, you know, or love. So. Yeah. Yeah.
- [59:27]
A
I mean, there's a very high chance of that. And, you know, the more that we include everyone in our public spaces, the better off I think we are in general. And I think it's not so scary to face aging. If we knew that the spaces were accessible. Like part of getting older that's scary to me is losing my independence.
- [59:50]
B
And I think that having to move.
- [59:52]
A
Yes, absolutely. I think that's a lot of people like my mom's mom, my grandmother had to be moved to a home. And you know, it's an eye opening experience to watch your parent parent their parent in this sort of like end of life stage. And how like my parents place in Charleston, my grandmother can't go there. My mom is in Charleston, My grandmother's in Charleston. My grandmother can't go to my parents house because there's too many stairs. So like I think when my parents bought the place 10 years ago, that was not a consideration. They were never like, you know, my grandmother needs to be able to come in this space and now they have to move. Like they have to move homes because it's, it's something that obviously we want her to be able to be included and come. But if we had thought about it down the line because it was, it's inevitable she was going to get older. So the fact that we're not bringing that into the thought process I think is short sighted. And it's going to cost people more money in the long run.
- [60:47]
B
Yeah. And not everyone's going to be able to financially.
- [60:50]
A
No.
- [60:50]
B
You know, afford that. So there's. Yeah. There's just so many implications. I think I have hope. I think like I said, we're getting there. Like we're making progress. It's slow. It's slow progress. And I will say like the United States does do a decent job compared to other.
- [61:11]
A
Comparatively. Yes.
- [61:13]
B
So I've had like the benefit to try travel a lot. I will say Scandinavia is like probably maybe a little bit better than us.
- [61:20]
A
That doesn't surprise me. Yeah.
- [61:22]
B
Those sweets, they know what's up.
- [61:24]
A
They know what they're doing, man.
- [61:26]
B
But you know, even parts of Europe and Asia for sure. I'm taking a trip to Japan next week.
- [61:33]
A
Oh my God. That's my dream destination. I'm so jealous. I can't wait to film a of.
- [61:37]
B
A travel influencer for two weeks.
- [61:39]
A
Gosh, I'm so excited for you.
- [61:41]
B
You're going to be like, who is this person? All I'm going to do is post sushi and no, I can't wait, wait.
- [61:45]
A
I'm gonna be following along. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited.
- [61:48]
B
But trying to find accessible hotels in Japan was a nightmare. Was. And I believe it like how hard it is like for other countries. Yeah. So I'm nervous And I will be posting about that as well.
- [61:59]
A
Please do. I would love to. I'm definitely gonna be following along with that and I hope everyone else does too, because I think that's something that we could all use more exposure to for sure. Last question for you. What's one small design choice that consistently makes a big difference in accessibility but.
- [62:15]
B
Most people overlook for renovations? I would say widened hallways and doorways. So I feel like a lot of the times we put in like a 30 inch door because we're just used to putting in 30 inch doors. But a 36 inch door could actually fit in the space for sure. Yeah, like a 48 inch hallway and a 36 inch door, especially in these bigger homes. Like, it's not going to look out of place. It's not going to look out of place. Scale. So I would definitely say, like, yeah, put in a 36 inch interior door if you can.
- [62:41]
A
And like, grand hallways are fabulous.
- [62:45]
B
Fabulous.
- [62:46]
A
In my opinion. It brings like a sense of place and it really has like some drama to it that also just is accessible, which is a great sort of like, you know, I mean, obviously that should be the goal. But I think what people are not understanding is it can make design better. Like, we are not. It's not a detriment to design, to designing accessibly.
- [63:06]
B
Yeah, you'll be able to fit your sofa through the hallway. You'll be able to put, you know, put a mattress.
- [63:12]
A
Y. Y.
- [63:13]
B
You can have like cool white music.
- [63:15]
A
Like you just have so many options. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I love that.
- [63:24]
Well, before we go, what is something that made you feel recently?
- [63:30]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay. I am not a very touchy feely person and I knew you were going to ask me this question. I was like, what are my feelings this week? And something that made me feel, which is like kind of bizarre. But I. Earlier this week I did. I'm a part of like the inclusion council with Kohler. They've changed the name a few times.
- [63:51]
A
I saw that. That's so cool.
- [63:53]
B
Yeah. So I'm really grateful to Kohler that they like, you know, are focusing on this and getting people in different parts of the industry's feedback. So this year. Last year we went to Kohler Wisconsin, which was super cool. This year it was down. They're like, we're going to Arizona. And I'm like, I live there.
- [64:10]
A
Oh, no.
- [64:11]
B
Like, it's down the street. I was like. But honestly, like, I was like, I don't need to travel. Thank you. That's actually Worked out so ideal. So we did a factory tour at their factory in Arizona for Kohler. And all I could. Like, the whole time, all I could think of was, like, how many people it takes to make a bathtub interesting. And then how many people it takes to put that bathtub into a house. Like, so we had to, like, you know, come up with the concept of the bathtub and all those things. But, like, they have robots making the bathtub, so we have, like, the engineer guys, and then we have the people building this warehouse, and then, of course, all the factory workers and all the IT guys. And they had, like, little. I called them Waymos for, but they were like.
- [64:53]
A
Yeah, the little guys. The little robot guys.
- [64:56]
B
Yeah, they were, like, little robot carts that, like, didn't need a person. Like, a waymo. Like. Yeah, but I was like. And they were from Toyota. And I'm like, okay, there's, like, a whole team at Toyota making these little carts to, like, cart these bathtubs are on the factory. Like, and that one, I don't know. Know. It's just like, there's, like, millions of people, when you think about it, like, who go into making a product. Yeah. And then even more people to get that product into your house. So, like, I love a factory tour. I don't care what it is.
- [65:23]
A
I do, too.
- [65:24]
B
I love factory appreciation for things. Like, and so, to me, I think it can also make us speak better to our products and stuff.
- [65:33]
A
Oh, it absolutely does.
- [65:34]
B
Yeah. This is just a bathtub. It's like, there was millions of people that made this bathtub.
- [65:38]
A
You don't see.
- [65:40]
B
Yeah, exactly. Like, have some respect.
- [65:44]
So I don't know what feeling that gave me. I guess it was just, like, astonishment. And it made me, like, zoom out, where I'm like, we're all these, like, little ants on Earth, just, like, doing our best and making our stuff well.
- [65:56]
A
And it's kind of miraculous that we get to finished homes. Like, truly, millions of people touch the things that end up going into one single family home. I mean, when you think. Think about when you. What you're saying, which is when you, like, pull back. It's a. It's a fascinating. Yeah, I haven't thought about it that way. I kind of felt the same way when I saw stone. The stone, like, factories in Italy. And truly, I have been able to speak to the product so much better. I've sold more natural stone in the last year than I probably have in the last three years. Because in, like, higher level, because I was able to be, like, well, no, actually, rust is its prehistoric water. It could have been there from the dust. Dinosaurs, they love that shit. Men are like, whoa. And put down their credit card. Like, it really.
- [66:40]
B
I have a fossil in my attention.
- [66:41]
A
Literally. Like, it changes the way that they think about it. And I think, like, the onus on us is the education. And I think that also comes into play with what we've been talking about, which is accessibility. I'm walking away from this with homework of, like, learning how to better educate my clients to make things more accessible, even if it's not applicable to them. So thank you.
- [67:01]
B
I appreciate that. And, you know, I offer consulting, and it's open to designers too. So if you have a project where.
- [67:07]
A
You'Re like, yeah, oh, that's great.
- [67:08]
B
This is a little outside my realm. Or like, I just. I need some help. Like, yep, call me. We. I can work with you. Or your client can be there too.
- [67:16]
A
But that's great. That's all. That's great for all designers to know, I think, because I have a feeling there are people who are feeling that way. I mean, when I took on this commercial job, I had to do so much research. Cause I was just like, had not done one to that scale. And I feel like if I had someone like you that I could have consulted with, I would have made it even better.
- [67:34]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think any. I don't fault people. Like, anything outside of what we do daily and in our normal sphere is hard. Like, if someone asked me to design, like, a super contemporary house, I'd say no. So I'm like, I don't even know where to get that. Like, I don't.
- [67:49]
A
Yeah, sorry, I don't have the sources. Like, that's not my. Yeah, yeah.
- [67:53]
B
I don't even know where to get that sofa that you're showing me on Pinterest. And so, like, I understand that for Accessibility too.
- [67:59]
A
I mean, I think that's a very generous way of thinking, though. Like, that you're not. Like, all designers should be doing a better job at accessibility. I think that's very generous. Cause we probably should.
- [68:08]
B
Honestly, it's just a different way of thinking. Like, we all have our own strengths with it and so true. So, yeah, yeah, if you have something like that, give me a call.
- [68:16]
A
I definitely will. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here. This was a fab episode. I had so much fun. Where can we. We find you?
- [68:24]
B
Okay, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok blue copper design on both. TikTok is like, more fun. Day in the life behind the scenes. Almost everything on Instagram will go on TikTok, but, like, not everything on TikTok goes on Instagram. So if you want locking on the fun stuff where I look like a troll and I don't wear makeup, but put that on TikTok, but, like, never.
- [68:44]
A
On Instagram, well, and that's where it always does the best.
- [68:47]
B
So, yeah.
- [68:49]
A
Yeah.
- [68:49]
B
So those are my main two social medias or our website, bluecopper.com design. Or if you just like Google Blue Copper design, I'll pop up.
- [68:56]
A
Megan, thank you so much for doing this and for answering my potentially dumb questions. I really appreciate your generosity.
- [69:02]
B
No, no questions were done. Thank you so much for having me.
- [69:04]
A
Thank you. Thanks, guys. Okay, well, until next week. Peace be with you.
- [69:08]
B
By.