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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Hema Persad, founder of Sagrada Studio. After starting her career as an attorney, Hema transitioned into fashion, spending years styling a list celebrities in major campaigns before moving into interior design in 2021. She now leads residential and commercial projects across the country through Sagrada Studio, a practice rooted in the belief that our homes and creative spaces are sacred and designed with a focus on culture, luxury, and comfort. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited.
- [00:53]
B
Me, too. Thanks for having me.
- [00:55]
A
Yeah, this is going to be fun. Okay, so before we get into all the fun, juicy stuff, tell us how you got.
- [01:03]
B
Well, I got here by accident.
- [01:05]
A
Love it.
- [01:05]
B
My favorite way, basically. Yeah. My parents are immigrants, and so when I was growing up, interior design was just not a career that I even knew about. You know, they're very focused on, like, traditional careers, safe careers. Doctor, lawyer, accountant. So I chose to be a lawyer, and I liked it. I like making money. And in the beginning, I was like, great. Yeah, look. Graduated at 25, law school, bought a nice car, bought a nice house. The money's good.
- [01:32]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [01:33]
B
And then a few years in, you're like, oh, this work sucks. It's like doing homework for a living.
- [01:38]
A
Yeah, my parents used to say that all the time, you do your homework, I'm going to do mine. Because they're both attorneys as well, and it was a whole thing in my family. Like, it honestly put me off from the career for, you know, aside from a couple other things, but I was like, I can't have homework for the.
- [01:52]
B
Rest of my life. Oh, it is. It's so much. You know, when I was doing, like, financial services, so, like, extra boring.
- [01:58]
A
Wow.
- [01:59]
B
It's just. I was in court a lot, and I just didn't know what else to do, so I kept doing it. You know, you kind of get roped into a certain lifestyle, and then we had kids and.
- [02:11]
A
And I'm sure you were good at it, so it's hard to walk away from something you're good at and you're making money and you're stable. You know, that's. A lot of people would say, great, check, I'm good. Like, a lot of people would just stay where they are.
- [02:24]
B
I was a big box checker. I Had to kind of work hard to be. Not become that, like, to become Not a box checker.
- [02:32]
A
That's so interesting.
- [02:33]
B
Yeah. So I think around the time my kids were. I was about 30. My kids were, like, under three. I had two at the time. Now we have three. I. My husband was like, you're so miserable. Like, just. Can you figure it out? Like, be happy. So I didn't really. This was in Florida, too, you know, I didn't really know what to do then. I was like, fashion. I've always. I had a secret fashion blog. Like, I would document my outfits, but, like, I never shared it, and I should have, because in hindsight, that was when blogs were, like, taking off. You know, I was just too, like, shy and whatever. Anyway, so I always loved fashion, so I was like, you know what? I think I could be a stylist. Rachel Zoe was on tv. I didn't know the careers in fashion, but I knew that one. Yep.
- [03:19]
A
I know the exact moment in culture you're talking about, because I also was like, styling is where it's at because it did feel like you got to have, like, flex that creative muscle that's similar to what we get to do in interiors. So I totally.
- [03:31]
B
Really. And it's a service business, just like being a lawyer. So it felt familiar. Like, client work.
- [03:37]
A
Yep.
- [03:38]
B
So I did some research, and I was like, oh, well, looks like we either have to be in New York or la. And I did not want to raise kids in New York. It just seems too logistically difficult. I spent a lot of time in New York. I still do.
- [03:51]
A
It seems very logistically difficult to try to have more than one child in New York City.
- [03:56]
B
That feels harder to have a dog even. You know, like, it's hard.
- [04:01]
A
Any sort of responsibility in New York City is difficult.
- [04:04]
B
Correct. So I. My sister was actually living in LA at the time, so I came out to visit her, and I was like, wow, this place is amazing. It's warm. It feels. It feels doable. And I was like, okay. La. And the type of fashion work in LA is different too.
- [04:18]
A
Like, definitely.
- [04:19]
B
There's advertising, there's movies, there's red carpet. It's different. New York is very designer and editorial focused. And those, you know, I realized, like, they don't make as much money as you potentially could in advertising.
- [04:33]
A
Yeah. Commercial, you're making a lot more money in, you know, I mean, a lot. I think it's all relative. But, like, compared to Runway work or editorial. Yeah. I can imagine you're doing. There's. There's more meat there.
- [04:45]
B
For sure. There is more meat. And. And well, anyway, that's a whole other story because it turns out that's the big lie too.
- [04:52]
A
Sure.
- [04:55]
B
I said, okay, here's my plan. And I told my husband and he's like, okay, girl. So we listed the house for sale on Zillow one day and it sold within 48 hours. I mean, a whole bunch of stuff happened. My husband worked in wine and spirits at the time. He got a job first. So I was like, okay, you go, I'll sell the house and then come with the kids eventually. Because I wasn't gonna quit my lawyer job, you know.
- [05:13]
A
Sure.
- [05:14]
B
Yeah. Yeah, a lot. So we, we. He got a job with a wine company here. And then I said, okay, we'll. We'll list the house. The house sold so fast, we literally had 30 days to move. So I was like, oh, we're moving. So then I went to work on Monday. Yeah. And my boss, I was like, so my husband got a job in California, so I think we're moving. And he was like, so what does this mean? Are you quitting? And I was like, I don't know. He's like, well, I need you to work, like, work remotely. And I was like, oh, yeah. And he said, it's an option for you. Because I was working on this kind of big client at the time.
- [05:50]
A
Sure.
- [05:50]
B
So that eased the transition because they set me up with a home office in la.
- [05:55]
A
Oh, amazing.
- [05:56]
B
So it all kind of. This has been my experience in life. It's like when things are meant to happen, for me, they happen fast.
- [06:03]
A
Yes, I relate to that. It's like when the stars align and it all comes in. It's like, it's almost impossible for it to not happen at that point because it feels like the forward momentum is there in a way that you didn't even really orchestrate. Like, it's kind of wild.
- [06:18]
B
That's exactly what happened. It was almost like, oh, God, now we gotta figure out how to move and where are the kids.
- [06:23]
A
Yeah. Now we have all these things we have to do.
- [06:26]
B
We have nowhere to live. Like, all these things. So in 30 days.
- [06:29]
A
This was a cute idea a couple weeks ago and now we're here.
- [06:33]
B
Yeah. But in actual, I don't want people to get the wrong idea. From the time I made this plan to the time my husband got the job and we sold the house and all that, it was about a six month period.
- [06:41]
A
Okay, that's good. That's good.
- [06:43]
B
Yeah.
- [06:43]
A
I mean, still feels fast, but not that Fast.
- [06:46]
B
I mean, there was some time, but anyway, we moved to la. I immediately started interning with stylists. Ironically, the first stylist I interned with was Rachel Zoe's old assistant, Taylor. Oh, wow. Like, literally, first day, I was. I. You know, there's not much qualifications. You need. You need a car, and, like, you need to be willing to work for free. So I kind of sent my resume out to all these styling agencies, and they're always looking for free interns. And so I did that while I was doing my remote legal work.
- [07:16]
A
I was like, oh, my God. How did you balance that?
- [07:20]
B
I don't know. I was young. I was 30. I'm not 30 anymore.
- [07:27]
A
Also with two small kids. Like, that's two small kids, two jobs just moved.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah.
- [07:34]
A
I mean, are you sleeping? Like, that seems like a lot.
- [07:38]
B
No. And it was crazy.
- [07:40]
A
That's the thing that seems like it would have to go.
- [07:42]
B
Yeah. I have a very supportive husband who now works with me and Sagrada. He's always been like that. Kind of like, we're just gonna make it work. He and I are very much like, make it work people. And if we have a goal, if one of us has a goal or we have a goal for our family, we're just like, I don't know how we're gonna get there, but we're gonna get there. We're gonna do whatever it takes, but we will.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah.
- [08:03]
B
Yeah.
- [08:03]
A
I mean, that's very admirable. Also, I won't speak on your situation, but, like, there are certainly other people who have these big dreams who have spouses that say, are you crazy? We can't do that. We have X, Y, Z, and, you know, all the excuses that could pretty easily come up with. So it sounds like you guys are a good match, which is lovely.
- [08:23]
B
We are in that sense. I mean, when I first told my friends and family that I wanted to leave being a lawyer and go be a stylist, everyone thought I was nuts. My parents, my friends. Like, everybody was like, what? And when you do that, like, when you make big changes that make people feel uncomfortable, you're going to get that definitely from them, and you kind of have to do it anyway. So fast forward. I worked as a stylist. It snowballed, too. And I ended up working with the Kardashians and Kate Hudson and all these, like, really famous people. I. I helped style Andy Samberg for the 2019 Golden Globes when he hosted with Sandra. Oh, like, this is. You know, I had a good career.
- [09:02]
A
But you had Made it in styling, I think.
- [09:05]
B
So I was well on my way. And I. I realized too, like, oh, I'm never going to make the money I want to make in this business. Fashion just does not pay. Entertainment. It's really tough. But I, again, I was like, oh, God, well, maybe I should go back and be a lawyer. I don't really know. And then we had. I was pregnant with our third daughter in the pandemic, I had. We had her in 2020, and then there was a pandemic, and everybody stopped going anywhere. So I was like, well, I guess I'm going to just not do anything. I was doing some contract legal work at the time just to make more money.
- [09:35]
A
Sure.
- [09:36]
B
And then in 2021, when people started going out again, one of my clients was like, well, I got this new apartment, and I think you have good taste, so just, like, help. I like your house. So, like, help me decorate it.
- [09:45]
A
Yeah.
- [09:46]
B
And I said, okay. And then she did a vlog. She was an influencer. She did a vlog and, like, a bunch of content around the apartment. And then all of a sudden, I had clients, like, my other styling clients asked me to help them decorate their houses. And then, you know, people kept asking me. At first it was like, shelf styling and pillow styling. And then I got my first client who needed a kitchen Renault. And then I was like, oh, well, I've done this before, like, three times, because we had renovated our own homes. So I think my first client, who I didn't know, came from a friend, and it was like they had just bought a new house, and it was a kitchen round. So every job got bigger and bigger, and that's kind of how it happened.
- [10:23]
A
Which is how you know you're onto something. That's so exciting.
- [10:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is like a combination of styling and law, because it really is the billing and the business part is the same. Are very similar.
- [10:37]
A
I bet you are such a good biller. I bet you are such a good hourly biller. I'm so bad.
- [10:43]
B
Kind of. But you know what I've done, Caroline? I've, like, tried to take as much of the hourly billing out of it because it is so inefficient.
- [10:50]
A
Interesting.
- [10:51]
B
And we can talk about that, too.
- [10:52]
A
Yeah. Can we? Because I feel like this is a big conversation right now because I. I want to know why you did that. Do you feel like you're making as much money? Because that's the big question mark to me.
- [11:03]
B
So I've done every iteration of billing that you could do. So I did flat rate in the meeting simply because I had no idea how to charge.
- [11:09]
A
Yep.
- [11:10]
B
And then I started to really learn about the business of interior design. I was like, oh, okay. All the old school folks, they do hourly. So I switched to that. Flat rate billing. You make no money. Right. If you're. If you're just doing an entire job, start to finish, on a flat rate, you're going to lose money.
- [11:26]
A
1000% hourly billing.
- [11:28]
B
Clients don't like it. And I'm all about reducing friction.
- [11:31]
A
Yep.
- [11:31]
B
They don't like unpredictability. So I said there has to be a happy medium. So what I've landed on that works quite well is I'll do a flat rate for the design part. So it's based on how many hours. Like, you know, all the overhead that goes into creating a client's design. Sure. And then we move into procurement, and that is a percentage of every materials invoice.
- [11:56]
A
Interesting. Okay.
- [11:57]
B
And then the hourly portion is just reduced to the execution and construction administration, because that's the unpredictable part. No matter what I've learned, I can't predict what's going to happen once you actually start.
- [12:09]
A
That's interesting. That's. It's like a hybrid model.
- [12:12]
B
Three phase billing.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah. I like that because I feel like when I was doing flat fee, I was being taken advantage of in such a crazy way. Like, it was like they got off on the fact that they kept me there for 12 hours when they were not paying anywhere. You know what? It felt like it was like I was really being taken advantage of. And to your point, hemorrhaging money. Like, hemorrhaging. And now we've gone to hourly, and it's definitely like we're making a lot more money. But I want to die every month when I have to do my hourly billing. So that's not a great system because then I feel like if you have a particularly creative brain, it's very hard to quantify what I did and what I'm doing. I don't know. That's not one of my best skills. And so, yeah, even just selfishly, I like the idea of it being like the design work is a flat fee, because it kind of is anyway, because we give clients an hour's estimate and we break down each section of the project by how many hours we think that section will take. So we're kind of already doing that. And even if I go over, I'm kind of still staying within it because I don't want to have a fight so it may as well be a flat fee. And then I don't have to write down my hours. So I may be taking that.
- [13:32]
B
Well, now that we actually. So all our projects now are either new build, hospitality, or very large rent, like, you know, full home renovations. So now what I've started doing is hospitality billing is very different. So that. Ignore that. But on our residential projects now what I've started doing for the design portion is a price per square foot for FF&E. And then once we're done with all the FF and E, we charge a phase two price per square foot for furnishings, artwork, and soft goods. So it's still flat rate.
- [14:02]
A
Interesting.
- [14:03]
B
I have to compartmentalize their thinking.
- [14:05]
A
Yep.
- [14:06]
B
So once we've done all the hard finishes, then I charge them for a flat rate per square foot, price per square foot for the furnishings and soft goods.
- [14:16]
A
How are you dealing with clients who want to see like 40 options for something? Because, you know, we all have clients that are a little bit more difficult, and then clients who are like, here's three options, pick one. And they do. How are you mitigating them not eating into your margins when it's price per square foot, when you don't know how they're always going to, like, react and how they're. Does that make sense?
- [14:37]
B
Within that, they get two rounds of changes. So we're doing a three rounds of design total if they need it. And then anything beyond that is hourly.
- [14:45]
A
Hourly. Okay, that makes sense. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that with us. I always love to know how differently people do things because there's definitely a better way. There's definitely a better way than the way I'm doing it. That's for sure.
- [15:01]
B
Well, you should try this because I highly recommend, after I, you know, I move fast when it comes to iterating in my business, and this has worked for a while now.
- [15:09]
A
Interesting.
- [15:10]
B
I'll give you an example of a time it really worked was we had these clients and we designed their whole house. You know, flat fee.
- [15:15]
A
Yep.
- [15:16]
B
Presented the design package. They loved it. Then it's the weekend. On Monday, they call, they're like, we found our dream home over the weekend. So we're not gonna actually. We're selling this house and we're not actually going to do this design. And I was like, okay, cool, you paid me.
- [15:31]
A
So that happened to us too. Believe it or not. That just happened to us. We had designed. We had spent a year designing the entire home. And then they were like, we found a different house if you wanna buy it. And you do that home as well. Obviously, it's not the same at all. They're two different styles. Like, we can't transfer anything. And I was just like, okay, I mean, you've paid our hours, we'll do it again if that's what you want. But I do think flat fee, I'm basically already doing it, so I just would be taking out a step of my process, which is actually recording the hours, because we're giving them a flat fee, essentially, because I'm generally sticking with it.
- [16:07]
B
You do have to have data, right? Like, you have to be confident about the flat fee that you're charging and just make sure, based on your previous work, the way you work, all of that, that you're. All your overhead, your renders, your drawings, all of it is all covered, right? But like, yeah, you know, if you're collecting data and you're. You're having your team record their hours and all of that, like, it shouldn't be too hard for you to figure out how much time and effort and overhead it's going to take you to design a project. The unpredictable part is the execution.
- [16:41]
A
Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right? Then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to program I.design and use code Confessions25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Dou it. Before we get into our confessions, do you have a vice?
- [17:52]
B
Yeah. Freaking potatoes. Like French fries, Like chips. Tater tots. Like any kind of fried potato. I've tried and I. They're. They're just a part of my life I have to Have French fries or chips or, like, I just love a fried potato.
- [18:12]
A
Same. It is. Potatoes are everything to me. I completely agree. I was just talking to the girls about this. Cause I was like, did you guys know that the potato famine was number one, man made, and number two, they didn't have potatoes. The famine was. Cause they didn't have potatoes. Not that they only could eat potatoes. I didn't know that.
- [18:32]
B
That would be a tragedy for me.
- [18:34]
A
Same. I was like, okay, so I really understand the famine of it all now. Like, we were missing potatoes. I would feel the same way.
- [18:40]
B
And you know, like, I've tried to eat sweet potatoes and like, whatever. And I'm just like, I don't care. Like, it's not the same. I'm just gonna eat the damn French fries, like, call it a day.
- [18:49]
A
French fries, I think, are their, like, own food group. They're complete source of nutrition. In my mind. They're great. I couldn't live without them.
- [18:57]
B
Yeah.
- [18:57]
A
I say every single time. I'm gonna have to add other people's vices to my list of already very long. It's already very long with everybody else's vices. And this is another one I gotta add. Apparently.
- [19:07]
B
Who can live without, like, chips or French fries? Like, I dare you, you can't.
- [19:12]
A
And I applaud those people, but I'm not one personally. Also, maybe I don't applaud them. Don't you think they're a little sad?
- [19:20]
B
Life is too short.
- [19:21]
A
I feel like I get 20% of my joy from a french fry. So, like, at least right now.
- [19:27]
B
Or a mashed potato or something.
- [19:29]
A
Oh, a good mashed potato. Oh, man. Okay. Yeah. We could really go down path. Let's do a confession. Confession. Confession, yeah.
- [19:43]
B
So excited to hear this.
- [19:45]
A
I have a confession. I designed this beautiful home a while ago for a lovely couple. They had this grand foyer that they wanted to do something unique with. After much deliberation, we landed on an incredible wall finish. It was a stunning wallpaper with a linen composition and a subtle sheen. It had this soft texture, looked and felt super luxurious. It was amazing. I had suggested an installer that I'd worked with before and trusted completely. But the contractor on the job, who had been hired by the clients, insisted on using his installer because it would be more economical and he would have more control over the schedule. He insisted that he was great at his job, if not even better than the one I suggested. I love when they say that. So I gave in. Because sometimes you just have to let go and Pick your battles.
- [20:31]
B
Okay, that's true.
- [20:32]
A
Agreed. I agree. Install day came and I was getting progress photos along the way. One of the photos came through and I remember just stopping and staring at it in confusion because for some reason the room looked flat, which didn't make sense. The whole point of this wallpaper was the subtle shimmer and texture. And instead it just looked like a dull version of itself, just lifeless and sad. At first I was like, maybe it's a bad angle or bad lighting, but that wasn't it. The rest of the room looked normal. I zoomed in and stared for a while, trying to figure out why it looked off. Then I realized, somehow, someway, the wallpaper had been installed backwards. It was inside out. I cannot make this up. The entire foyer had been installed with the wrong side facing out.
- [21:21]
B
Oh my God.
- [21:22]
A
And of course, most of it was already up. This poor woman. Well, I called the installer immediately. I told him it looked like the wallpaper was backwards, had him check, and my suspicion was confirmed. He got defensive saying that I hadn't specified which side to install it on.
- [21:42]
B
Is it a two sided wallpaper? That's ridiculous.
- [21:44]
A
What are you talking about? There's one side. I was so taken aback because who would ever think to specify that kind of detail? Yes, and I was furious because I knew that if we had used the installer I had suggested and worked with countless times, this would never have. I had advocated for him and ultimately had to give in because the clients agreed to go with the more economical choice. As for the wallpaper, there was no salvaging it. You can't peel a luxury fiber wallpaper off and reuse it. Once it's installed wrong, it's gone. So everything had to come down and go straight into the trash. Thousands of dollars of material, weeks of schedule, just gone. Which, like, I honestly don't know which is worse. Especially if you're doing a big project, the clients are trying to move in wallpapers towards the end of the project.
- [22:33]
B
And wallpapers last.
- [22:35]
A
Exactly.
- [22:35]
B
So what?
- [22:36]
A
This ends up being like 16 weeks from now?
- [22:38]
B
They paid for it. I mean, look, shit happens.
- [22:41]
A
The financial conversation that followed was tense. The installer and contractor tried to blame it on me, saying that I hadn't specified the necessary details to install. Yeah, and the clients were not thrilled. Again, I tried to stand up for myself and point out that I had suggested my own installer and advised against this one, but they wouldn't relent. Ultimately, in order to preserve the client relationship and prevent an even bigger blow up the installer, contractor and I unfortunately split the costs. The room was delayed, obviously, and the material lead time was brutal. It was reordered and reinstalled by my installer correctly this time. The room did finally end up as stunning as we'd hoped for. Actually, one of my favorite rooms to this day, admittedly, I still think about this situation a lot and what I could have done to protect myself better. So my question to you is, what would you have done differently?
- [23:32]
B
Oh, man. Okay. So when we have a materials install happening, that is a material we procured, for example, tile, wallpaper, you know, carpet, something like that, we meet with that installer on site before they start. So this is obviously very important with tile and wallpaper specifically. Right. Because sometimes there's a section of, like, say it's a mural, a wallpaper, you want it, you know, by the window or whatever, Whatever it is. So I don't think, having learned hard lessons myself, and this is not judging this designer, because, like, you can't always do that, right? Like, you can't always go on site and it's not your installer, in my opinion. Like, if it's not my guy, and now I have to use this person, somebody from my team needs to show up and go over the tile pattern, go over the wallpaper, all of that before they start.
- [24:33]
A
I agree. I think that's the best way to mitigate it. I also think there's so many times where in my career I've had clients say, we don't need you to come to site so much, or we don't need you because, like, they don't want to pay, you know, and again, to your point, flat fee, that mitigates that issue. But if you're either a solo entrepreneur, meaning it's only you, and you don't have, like, an assistant or someone to go see site, or you've sort of been told by the client, don't worry, we trust the contractor. They'll handle it. Which has happened to me. For me, I would have needed to get that in writing. Like, okay, well, then if you're asking me not to go to site, or if you don't want me to put my eyes on it, then you need to know that, like, I don't accept responsibility for anything.
- [25:16]
B
Here's my thought as an ex attorney who used to think that getting things from clients and writing meant anything.
- [25:22]
A
It doesn't.
- [25:23]
B
Beyond your contract, right? Like, your contract, you can always rely on. And it should be. It better be good, you know? But these types of things, when you're in the job, and they're just, like, saying whatever. They mean nothing to the client. You could. They could send you an email and be like, yes, I confirm that. I don't. They won't care when it. When shit gets fucked up, rubbers hit the road.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah.
- [25:45]
B
Yeah. They won't care what they said. That's been my experience. Right. So I think. And this is what I tell my team, too, you have to insist there's no being passive when it comes to advocating for your design, because guess what? That's what they're paying you for. I have this belief that, like, people are paying me as a designer to literally boss them around and tell them what to do.
- [26:11]
A
Yeah. I also believe that.
- [26:13]
B
I really think they are. So I would be doing them a disservice if I didn't say I need to go on. I had this conversation with some clients this morning to be very. I just had a call right before you about the cadence of site visits and when we need to do them and why. And they were just like, oh, okay. Because at first they were kind of like, well, we can go look. And I was like, that's fine. You can go look all day. Here are the intervals, like framing, electrical, you know, before your drywall gets closed up. And I explained to them why. Because if something goes wrong at any of these intervals and work has to. You have to go back and redo work. It's going to cost you way more than my project manager's site visit. And that usually, that's language I would encourage anybody to use. This site visit may cost you $1,000. Guess what will cost you $6,000 if I don't get my eyes on it before it gets done.
- [27:06]
A
Yep, that's a great point.
- [27:07]
B
You kind of have to be a little bit firm.
- [27:10]
A
It's so interesting what you just said about what you think a designer's role is, because I agree with you. And I've gotten so much pushback from other designers, especially on the Internet, about how our job is not to tell clients what to do. It is to do what they want to do. It is to execute what they want, which, by the way, they don't know what they want. That couldn't be further from a real designer, in my opinion. I am not their assistant. I'm not their yes man. I'm not here to be like, whatever you want, sir, hire somebody else. Like, that's not. It's not the right fit.
- [27:45]
B
And it could be. This is my third service career, Caroline. Like, my third and when you're a lawyer, it's very easy, right? You go to law school, you take the bar, you already come out with people assuming that you have a lot.
- [27:56]
A
Of information that they. Yes, yes.
- [27:59]
B
And even then, though, we would have clients who'd be like, well, I googled and I read on the Internet that, you know, you could be, you know, whatever, right? Like, so. And then moving into styling celebrities. Okay. Like, they're just like trusting you because the process is similar. You go around, you get the best options for them, you bring it to their house, you do a fitting, right. You're getting paid for your expertise in that area. Like to tell them, I've gotten to know you, this is the best option for your situation. Yes, I've brought you the best, you know, and then it's the same with interior design. And I, I suss all this out in the, in the sort of like initial kind of conversations before we decide. I'll ask them point blank in the initial interview is like, are you ready for this process? Because here's how I work. I will say, are you ready for this? I am going to bring you the best options.
- [28:52]
A
Interesting.
- [28:53]
B
I'm really not interested in what your friends and family think or what you found on the Internet. Obvious collaborative. And you, if you see something that you like, let's talk. Of course, you know. But I am not going to just execute what you think is best because in my experience, you're not going to like the end result.
- [29:09]
A
You never are, they never do. And I've had people say to me, why didn't you stop me? I tried, like, and to your point, it doesn't really matter any of the conversations that were had in the middle. I do want to mention I have done like actual addendums to contracts. We had a specific example in a commercial space where I didn't feel comfortable leaving the quality of furniture that they wanted us to buy in there for a long period of time. And I did not wanna be sued if something failed because it wasn't commercial grade when they had bypassed that. So, like, I had to have an attorney, you know, create a doc. So I think it can be done, but that's pretty aggressive.
- [29:52]
B
I think that's fair though. Like, you have to protect your, but you have to kind of save them from themselves too. You know what I think a lot of designers do sometimes is create this very adversarial relationship with their clients. And I just had this conversation. I take a very hospitality forward approach to dealing with our clients. I like to say yes. In fact, if I can say yes to you, I'm gonna say yes to you. I tell my team too. Like when clients are asking you for things or trying to present ideas or whatever, you need to pause and stop and think like, can I say yes to this? You know, think it through. Right. Because that makes the. No. It's like raising kids the same shit. I do too with my teenagers. It's like say yes as often as a great point so that no means something.
- [30:38]
A
Yep. If you just say no. I don't like that. No, I hate this. No, no, no, no. They don't care and they think you just hate everything. So then your whole opinion gets thrown out the window. Picking your battles, I mean, that's something that we talk about a lot personally.
- [30:53]
B
Yeah.
- [30:53]
A
But I still, I mean client. My clients now know where I stand on under cabinet lighting. I'll never keep them from using it. I don't care. It doesn't affect me. Ultimately. I personally hate it and will not have it in any of my homes. So like if that moves the needle on how they feel about it, great. If not, it's not something that I'm like, no, rip it out or don't do because it doesn't really affect me. Quartz versus marble. That does affect me. And I personally will not sell man made stone ethically. So like though, you know, I feel like those are two and to your point. So yeah, I'll say yes to under cabinet lighting. So that way when I say no to Quartz, they're not like, oh well, she says no to everything.
- [31:33]
B
But going back to our question asker, I don't know why the site visit didn't happen with, you know, prior to the wallpaper install or insisting on the her wallpaper, his or her wallpaper installer. But to me it's a very expensive product usually wallpaper. Right. And. And a lot of contractors don't care about it. They really don't at all. So I definitely think that again, I have my categories, right. Like tile. Somebody's going on something 1000% to make sure that the patterns are. You have to discuss it with the tile installer face to face. Right. Same with the wallpaper. Like I think in hindsight, you know, I would have been like this couple hour site visit that's going to cost you however much is going to save you thousands in the end. Because here are all the horror stories that have happened.
- [32:28]
A
It's also interesting because I don't know, we use one personally. Like at my firm, we use one wallpaper Installer. And so I actually don't really meet with him. We have. We send him a document. He knows exactly what the wallpapers are, and he knows what questions to ask me because we've worked together for a really long time. Should I. Probably. We don't have a big enough team to have everybody at every wallpaper install and have enough time in the day. However, I'm saying that to say if it was a different wallpaper installer, like, if it was somebody besides this guy that I trust with my life, a new person, of course I would be on edge to make sure this was correct. But I wonder if it's like. Because you are like, well, my other wallpaper installer does it perfectly every time. I wouldn't even think to tell them that it could be inside out. It feels like a mistake I could have made early on easily. Like, I could have just been like, well, every wallpaper installer, you know, they all know what to do. How difficult could this be? Like, it feels like something that's an easy mistake to make.
- [33:27]
B
Yeah. No, like I said, no judgment to this designer because the only reason I operate this way now is because I've fucked up so many times.
- [33:34]
A
There's been some issues, and now. Yeah. And I mean, it's. That's part of why we have this podcast, is to learn from each other. I think you're exactly right. I think having more FaceTime on site and being a little bit more forceful about things is ultimately probably what needs to happen.
- [33:50]
B
It's the forceful part that I notice a lot of designers are uncomfortable with. That I have no problem with. But again, I was a litigator for 10 years, so, like, that's my personal level of comfort with confrontation and. And difficult discussions. Right. You have to find a way to lead the project in a way that makes everybody want to follow you. Yep. Along the path. Without seeming like you're combative. Yeah. Combative or not giving your clients the control that they want, you know, like, it's a fine line. It really is, but you've got to learn how to do it.
- [34:22]
A
It really is. It's something that I struggle with sometimes for sure. Because to your point, this is a customer service business. How do you balance being forceful but not combative and, like, in a negative way, how do you keep that really lovely relationship with the client while still enforcing the things you want to enforce?
- [34:45]
B
Okay. So I always. I think that this goes back to my marketing on my social media. I. I'm very much. I am who I am, and I've noticed that when clients have reached out to us, they've already gone down that rabbit hole. They've seen me talking, they've heard me on the podcast. You know what I put out there is this. They already know like what he must about. So you aren't sharing yourself publicly or you know, from your first interaction with them, you know, communicating in this way. Then if you do it later, it's going to be very jarring to them.
- [35:18]
A
Yep, that is a great point. I think that is an excellent point that you have to come out of the gate that way.
- [35:25]
B
So it has to be part of your marketing. Like every touch point. Every touch point you have with the clients. And if you're one of these designers who's just like posting pretty pictures and not posting anything personal about your. Not personal, like I don't, you know, not like your kids or anything. But like if you're not.
- [35:41]
A
Sure, sure, sure. But your personality.
- [35:43]
B
Clients get to know you. Yes, it's a miss. We all want to go back to the days where like Instagram was just pretty pictures, but that ship has sailed and it's never coming back.
- [35:53]
A
I think that is an excellent point. Hema. I can't tell you how many times people come up to me and they're like, you're doing so well. You have so many clients like, oh my God. And I'm like, right. It's cause my face is on the Internet. And they're like, oh, I could never do that.
- [36:06]
B
You gotta do it.
- [36:07]
A
There's no choice. We are now in a situation where you must or clients don't know who you are and they want to work with someone that they can relate to and like and think is interesting because you're like getting married essentially.
- [36:19]
B
Yeah.
- [36:20]
A
At least that's what it feels like.
- [36:21]
B
And I think that I'm newer to the industry. Right. Like I'm not a Heidi Kelly or one of these like designers who's been around for a while and they came up in a time and built their following in a time where the picture is worrying.
- [36:33]
A
Oh, Heidi never has to be on camera if she doesn't want to. Like congratulations to her. She made now I've seen still now. Yes, she still does occasionally.
- [36:45]
B
It's a different time.
- [36:46]
A
So if even someone like that's doing it, I mean it's. Yeah, I would, I think about it all. I would love to not be so forward facing. It's just like not the reality of owning a design business.
- [36:57]
B
It also it's doing the work for you. Like I never, at this point, if somebody's been on my Instagram, I'm never going to get a client inquiry from someone who doesn't want me to be honest with them. They're. They're just not going to be attracted to me. Like, if they want a softer approach.
- [37:12]
A
Go to someone else.
- [37:14]
B
They'll see that they're not coming to me.
- [37:16]
A
Yep, I, I relate to that. I mean, like I just said, all my clients, whether I've told them or not, they know I don't like under cabinet lighting because I talk about it on the Internet. They know I don't like this because I say it. And I'm very like. And we have clients who come to us and they're like, we saw your video and we know that you don't like this, but would you do this? And then it leads to a conversation that helps because they know I'm not just going to give in all the time. So to your point, I think that's not something we've talked about in this arena, but they're very closely tied.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah, interesting. I definitely think that again, like, if you're putting out there what you want, your, like, how you want to be communicated with, you have to teach people how to communicate with you. Right. And that starts before you even meet them. In, in terms of your business, whatever business you're in. If it's a service business, like, you know, it has to start before your first interaction with them, or at the very least your first interaction with. Has to set the tone for how you're going to interact with them the whole time. So that sounds very vague, but, like, say I'm doing a client consult or whatever. Like, they've inquired on the website and we're now going to talk about the process. I, I'm very honest with them about what I. Not even design stuff, but, like, my expectations and how I communicate and what I need from them. Like, you kind of have to. Your first interaction has to lay it all out for them.
- [38:37]
A
You're essentially saying you teach people how to treat you and how they interact with you from the very beginning, which is 1000% true. Okay, I'm inspired. I'm taking some notes from this for sure.
- [38:51]
B
But honestly, maybe you do that consult and they're like, I don't like her, and that's fine too.
- [38:55]
A
And you would rather know then than halfway through the project. Personally, I would rather know then than halfway through the project because they took a spot that another client who completely gets. You could have taken.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah.
- [39:06]
A
Okay, we gotta Give some penance for this one. I think a lot of people in this situation need penance. The contractor should have to personally install a dining room of de Gournay wallpaper and then tell me if an installer matters. Yeah, I think they should have to really experience why you need a good installer.
- [39:28]
B
I mean, besides the obvious penance of having to buy 10 more rolls of wallpaper for this flight.
- [39:33]
A
Yeah, there was already some penance sort of built in there.
- [39:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's the penance. And then I think. I think the clients deserve a little bit of penance in this one, too.
- [39:44]
A
I do, too.
- [39:45]
B
For not trusting their designer. Because what the hell did you hire me for? I told you this guy. You just spent thousands of dollars on wallpaper and you let Joe Schmo install it like you need some penance, too.
- [39:57]
A
To save a couple dollars. And then the client has no repercussions. Like, yeah, trust your designer. Because we're not just saying this, like, for fun. And I think that is a common misconception in our industry is that, like, we just want things to be more expensive for fun or like. Cause it makes us more money and it doesn't. Like, if anything, if an installer comes back higher than I was anticipating, we cut anything that we had on wherever we can to mitigate that. Whereas often there's more margin in there. If your guy is not charging as much because he's not as specialized. I think I should say, like, if you're working with a specialized sub, they are going to be charging a good amount of money because they're specialized. That's like, how that works.
- [40:41]
B
Yeah.
- [40:42]
A
So makes sense. And then designer penance. Yeah, I think she's gonna have to, number one, put her face on camera and number two, be on site more.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah. A little bit more assertiveness. She's. She needs to go on site and confront the contractor and wallpaper installer. And in those cases, I think it's okay to be like, have you ever installed wallpaper before?
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, like, have you ever seen this before? I'm so confused.
- [41:05]
B
Have you? Yeah. Like, what's happening? I'm. I'm not very. Like, I'm professional, but I have told my team this too. I don't go on a job site to be friends with anyone. I don't care if. If you like me or not, you're going to respect me, though.
- [41:21]
A
Often I did my job correctly. If I walk off the job and everybody's mad.
- [41:26]
B
Yeah. I don't think they should be mad.
- [41:28]
A
But it's not mad at me.
- [41:30]
B
No. But like, oh, we have more work to do.
- [41:32]
A
Yes. That they had to do something. Something needed to be adjusted. Often I can feel the, like, energy of, like, is this girl fucking serious? And yes, I am, because that's what they're paying me for.
- [41:45]
B
We, when you think about it, right. We are our clients only advocate. And I tell them that in the intake meeting. I tell them, this is how this is going to go. You have a contractor who just wants to get the job done.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah.
- [41:56]
B
You have a subcontractor or whoever he's hiring who just wants to get the job done and get paid and move on to the next one. I am your partner. There is nobody else in this process who is 100% on your side besides me. There is no one else.
- [42:09]
A
That's agreement. I am the one who wants to make in your initial. That's a. Because we all know it's true. But voicing that sets the tone in a way that I think isn't always set. That's a good point to make.
- [42:19]
B
No, no, you have to. You have to say it. They don't know that they don't know or they don't think about it unless they've worked with on a few projects before. But even then, like, you have to remind them, like, think about all the players in this, you know, next year and a half, two years, however long. Right. Like, there's only one person who the design came from my brain.
- [42:39]
A
Yep.
- [42:41]
B
I'm the one who's going to, you know, make sure that it gets executed the way that I promise you, like, there's no one else.
- [42:47]
A
Well, and that's a good point, too, because it also sets the tone for, like, we are on the same side. So there is no reason for us to ever be in opposition as far as, like, if the contractor gets involved. Because I've seen that happen before where, like, things flip halfway through and they start to take the contractor side and you can. You're like, what's happening?
- [43:04]
B
I think contractors do that on purpose. Of course they do. Yeah.
- [43:10]
A
Of course they do. Oh, God.
- [43:12]
B
So you do have to play nice with them, too.
- [43:14]
A
Yeah. I respect contractors. If they give me respect and, like, just, like, I hear them out, I need them to hear me out. And if we're able to do that together, there's no issues.
- [43:23]
B
But I will also have conversations with them because by the time they're brought on, usually me and the architect have already kind of fleshed out design. It just depends, right. On who brought who on or whatever. Yeah, there's always a conversation without the clients about how we're going to work together. Yes, always. You cannot skip that conversation again. It's about teaching people how to treat you. You have that conversation with your clients, but you also make it a point to have that conversation with the contractor and say, hey, if something needs to change, please bring it to me first and we will figure it out.
- [43:54]
A
Doesn't always do something. But at least you'd said your piece, because in my experience, I say that every time and then they don't give a fuck. But you can only do so much, right? You can only do what you can do. And then at least you've said it. So you know, you know, you know, you know. Okay, let's get into the second confession. I have a story from when I was younger, living in a big city, and had just started getting traction in the area. I had done a project for a local boutique, and it got me the interest and attention I needed as a young designer. I ended up taking a couple of residential renovation projects in the area, both of which had different timelines, scopes, requests, et cetera. Pretty soon into these two projects, it became clear that the clients knew each other. It was two women who ran in the same social circle. They weren't close friends, but kind of had that country club kids in the same school situation where everyone sort of. Honestly, it reminds me of the show Big Little Lies. And right from the beginning, it was not a good dynamic. When I would have meetings with one of them, the theme of our conversation would drift away from their own house and project and towards questions like how busy I was, who else I was working with nearby, whether I was sourcing anything special lately, if any of my clients were doing something, quote, really custom, that kind of thing. And because I didn't feel comfortable sharing client information, I tried to stay neutral. But of course, that lack of information made them suspicious. And what I found out that made it more complicated was that they were talking to each other about me behind my back. I had suggested limestone for one house because it was in line with the style they were going for, completely different from the other project, mind you. And the other asked me soon after why I hadn't shown them that limestone option, as if I was playing favorites or had a secret agenda. It felt like I would start being challenged in these client meetings. Like, I heard you were doing this for so and so. Why haven't you offered it to me? As if these weren't completely different scopes, budget styles, all of It. It was beyond frustrating. They would constantly ask me if we were on track, nagging that we were behind schedule even though we weren't, simply because they were talking with one another and creating this false scenario of competition. I really tried not to confirm anything, but they'd invent narratives anyway. The budgets crept up for no real reason. Some of my favorite selections got scrapped because they just weren't special enough, and pieces that had been approved for weeks just weren't acceptable anymore. One of them got the name of my millworker and called him directly to, quote, ask about custom cabinetry, which confused him enough that he thought we were changing the order. We were already doing custom. It delayed production for a week because he didn't know which direction was correct, and I didn't catch it because I was unaware it had even happened. At one point, I had a contractor on site at one of the homes, and he called me, saying a woman had pulled up to the home and started walking the property like she owned it, taking photos of the home in progress. He assumed it was a friend of the client, but when he went inside to ask, the actual homeowner came out furious. It was the other client. They ended up arguing in the driveway, making a scene to the point that there was neighbors watching, yelling about who had what, idea first why tile installers were at one job and not the other, and why exactly the client was sneaking around on site. It ended with the trespasser speeding off after the homeowner threatened to call the police. I realized at that moment I was in way over my head. It stopped being just frustrating and started feeling like a serious interference with my work and reputation. I looked disorganized and untrustworthy, and at the beginning of my career, it was exactly what I didn't need. After considering firing both of them, I decided I had to put up an ethical wall. I told my contractors to send any questions through me and to all but stop talking to the clients on site, stop sharing vendor info, no casual updates. I basically ran both projects like they were confidential operations. If they attempted to mention the other to me, I simply said I could not comment. It was beyond stressful. Ultimately, I finished both projects within a few months of each other, and they turned out beautiful. But needless to say, those clients and that neighborhood are now on my blacklist.
- [48:00]
B
This sounds like the reality. Like a Real Housewives of wherever.
- [48:05]
A
No, it does. When we first read the story, I was like, this is crazy. This should be like on a reality show. This is nuts. Yeah, there's like, so Much to be said, in my opinion. But my biggest read is that crazy people are friends with crazy people, and both of them are crazy.
- [48:23]
B
Yes. And I actually commend this designer for finishing the project.
- [48:27]
A
Same.
- [48:28]
B
It sounds like she was really able to get them to the finish line and deliver beautiful results. And, like, that is very, very difficult. That. That's 1,000%. I don't think there's penance here for her or the contractors, because it sounds like everybody really rallied to, like, get these toxic people their houses.
- [48:46]
A
I think she deserves a massive vacation is what her penance is like. I think she deserves some rest and relaxation and maybe a little therapy, because, like, my God, we are actually building.
- [48:59]
B
Two homes for two best friends right now. But they're not toxic. Like, they kind of don't. I know that they talk about their homes and their design and whatever, but it's. Their homes are so different from each other, too.
- [49:12]
A
Also, if they're really best friends, they're not in competition with each other. They're both happy for each other. And that, you know, it's really jarring and also comes off to me like, they don't have much else in their life.
- [49:25]
B
Oh, clearly. Who has time to, like, go trespass.
- [49:29]
A
Exactly.
- [49:30]
B
Job site.
- [49:31]
A
Who has time to think of these things? Who has time to worry that the Thailand solar is at this job versus, like. And I get it, if you're in a timeline and your guy's not there. It's frustrating, but it's also construction, and it's how it works.
- [49:44]
B
I wonder if she ever had, like, a real direct discussion with either of them about their behavior. Like, at some point, I think I. Earlier on, maybe the only thing I would have done differently because it really just sounds like. Like, they're crazy. And this is not really.
- [49:57]
A
You just had to get out.
- [49:58]
B
Yeah. I wonder, you know, sometimes you need to, like, call people out and embarrass.
- [50:02]
A
Them a little bit for their bad behavior. Yes. Yes.
- [50:06]
B
Yeah.
- [50:07]
A
I think sometimes we think, like, oh, I couldn't possibly do that. I'm the one they've hired. But, like, we're all still people.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah.
- [50:13]
A
And if these people are acting so horribly, it's okay. In my opinion, it's okay to say something like, you're a human.
- [50:20]
B
I think I would have literally been like, whatever, let's make up a fake name. Karen.
- [50:25]
A
Perfect.
- [50:27]
B
Perfect Karen. This is weird. Why are you worried about it? Your house is gonna be incredible. Yes.
- [50:35]
A
I would have been like, I need you to calm down because you're being crazy. Like, you gotta. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And your home will be beautiful. Your home will be beautiful. Like, there's no need to.
- [50:44]
B
I feel like. Karen, you know that's weird to, like, go to your friend's house that's under construction.
- [50:50]
A
Karen, you know, trespassing is wrong.
- [50:53]
B
Karen. That is illegal. What are you doing? God.
- [50:58]
A
I mean. Yeah, I think that's a great point. We should be able to say something. If people are just being nuts. Like, it's. But also, sometimes when people are so crazy, they don't even, like, get embarrassed or they don't even feel badly about their behavior. It's just normal to them. So they're so in a different world.
- [51:14]
B
No, Caroline, we had a client who, like, we did the house in phases, and she so heard her kids could live in it. I love her. You know, whatever. As a person. Right? But as a client, there were some crazy requests. Like, at one point, they were finishing a bathroom, and she wouldn't let the guys come in any doors because the rest of the house was kind of done. So we had to make a hole in the wall for the guys to climb in and out of to do the bathroom. I remember looking at her and being like, you know this is crazy, right? And she's like, I don't care. And I was like, oh, okay.
- [51:44]
A
Okay. Well, at least. At least, you know it's crazy, because she did know.
- [51:48]
B
She knew it was crazy. She also didn't care. She's like, I don't care.
- [51:52]
A
That is one of the craziest things I've heard.
- [51:54]
B
Oh, yeah. They had a ladder to climb in and out of the window to. In to install tile. Like, they had to get a new tile guy because the bigger tile guy could not fit through the hole.
- [52:08]
A
Oh.
- [52:09]
B
And I remember I told her. I mean. But we had very open communication. I was like, sure, sure, sure. This girl. This is crazy. And she's like, I know, and I don't care. I'm sick of construction. And I was like, you're lucky they're willing to do it. She's like, well, I'm paying them, so they're gonna do it, I guess.
- [52:26]
A
Yeah. Until we run out of people who are willing, but sure.
- [52:29]
B
And then when they went to install the vanity, we were like, they cannot install this vanity through the window. You need to let them through the front door. And she was like, okay, fine for that. It was crazy.
- [52:41]
A
That's nuts. That is nuts. That is one of the craziest things I've heard From a client. Wow.
- [52:48]
B
But I made sure to tell her it was crazy. And I do think on some level, because she's, like, a nice person or whatever, she just was, like, sick of construction and she's a, you know, like. Like any wealthy person, right? Like, they have their.
- [52:59]
A
If they can fix it with money, they want to, because it's like, why would you be uncomfortable? Which. I get it. Yeah. I mean, she.
- [53:06]
B
She knew it was great, but me telling her was crazy. I think that also helped her be like, okay, well, okay, fine. They can install. Fine.
- [53:13]
A
They can. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because you can only be. I do think calling someone out on their behavior, whether they acknowledge it in the moment or not, unless they're just a psychopath, they're probably thinking about that as they go to sleep that night and are gonna reflect themselves, I hope. Yeah. We can only hope. We didn't give penance to the clients.
- [53:31]
B
But, I mean, well, the clients. The clients get all the. I think the clients then have to go live in each other's houses. That's the.
- [53:43]
A
I think that's great. I think that's great. I think they should. I think they should have to pull together and send their designer to, like, Ibiza or somewhere really nice for, like, a month.
- [53:54]
B
Somewhere great. I think that there's a contractor, too, because it sounds like he had to play, like, security guard on the. On the job sites.
- [54:01]
A
Yeah. These poor guys are like, there's a woman walking. Like, that's crazy. Crazy. Okay, let's do a couple questions before we're done. How is your experience in the world of fashion translated into your design career? Are there any skills or practices that you find yourself using as a designer every day?
- [54:23]
B
So fashion styling specifically taught me how to come up with a creative concept and then communicate it to a client. And so the process was the same. It was, okay, I've got a celebrity who has a press tour. They need, you know, 15 outfits or whatever, and you have to kind of come up with a little bit of a campaign for them.
- [54:39]
A
Yeah.
- [54:40]
B
Like, okay, well, what are you. What are we conveying with all these looks? Like, who are you? What's the movie? What are you doing? So there's a mood board, and then they're like, okay, yeah, that's great. And I'm thinking, okay, what works on their body type and whatever? And so there's a mood board, and then there's, like, execution details.
- [54:55]
A
Yes.
- [54:56]
B
It taught me. Yeah. It taught me how to creatively come up with something and then how to actually express it to a client. And I do that every day.
- [55:05]
A
Yeah. And that's. I mean, a skill that is so necessary to this job. So I can imagine that helped in your transition.
- [55:11]
B
For sure. Yes. And anything. Because they do the same thing.
- [55:14]
A
Right.
- [55:14]
B
Like, they'll bring pictures of Kendall Jenner in an outfit, and you're like, yeah, it looks amazing, but this is not your body type. This is not your hair color.
- [55:24]
A
Like, she's literally made to sell clothes.
- [55:27]
B
Yeah. Right. So you kind of have to figure out what they're trying to tell you and make it work for them, but, like, even better than they could imagine. So that whole. I spent a long time doing that for people on their. Like, if you mean people are neurotic about their homes, they're like, 10 times more neurotic about their bodies, especially these people.
- [55:44]
A
I can imagine.
- [55:46]
B
Yeah.
- [55:46]
A
I can imagine how I would be as a styling client. Like, I would not be a good styling client. I could already know.
- [55:53]
B
It's rough.
- [55:54]
A
Yeah. Cause you're dealing with, like, deep seated insecurities and. Yeah. A lot of public opinion. I can imagine that's weaseling its way in. In a way that has got to make you crazy sometimes. Well, so and so said, it's like, that doesn't. Yeah, I can imagine that would be lots of learning experiences.
- [56:10]
B
It basically taught me my whole creative process. I'll be really honest. So, yeah, every day I use it.
- [56:15]
A
That's amazing. And I think there's a lot of people who are like, well, I'm 30. I couldn't start another career. You're like, I've done it twice since then.
- [56:25]
B
I'm probably not done. I probably have, like, one or two more careers up my sleeve at this point.
- [56:32]
A
But I get that a lot of, like, I'm 35. I'm in healthcare. I hate my life. Should I change? Is it too late to become a designer? No, of course not. It's never too late. I mean, as long as you can walk on the job site, you're. It's not too late.
- [56:46]
B
Yeah.
- [56:46]
A
You were also the art director for Property Forever Home. Looking back, how did that chapter influence the designer you are now?
- [56:54]
B
The way TV works is, like, you do a lot in a very condensed, short, fast period of time. So I art directed four episodes for them pretty early on.
- [57:01]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [57:01]
B
So that gave me four completed projects. Large scale, fast moving. So I will say the way that it influenced my career, besides being able to observe Drew and Jonathan and how they work, just, you know, that entire.
- [57:14]
A
Observe that. Yep, yep.
- [57:16]
B
Yeah. It Gave me a lot of confidence. Like, executing four projects in four months, basically. And they're not small. We're talking, like, five rooms in a house. And whatever. The biggest impact it had was on my confidence and ability as a designer.
- [57:32]
A
Once you do that, you can do anything for homes, and you feel like Superman.
- [57:38]
B
And then it turned into Jonathan asking me to decorate some stuff at him and Zoe's house, and it just gave me that experience with them. Although TV is very painful and, like, it sucks, the actual. It's not a real design process. It taught me nothing about how to run a design studio or anything like that, but it gave me so much confidence in my ability to execute.
- [58:02]
A
To execute a project that makes sense. And, I mean, that's another huge factor in this. I felt that way. We just executed a really, really large project that was on just lots of specific details that made it incredibly difficult. And walking away from that process, I was like, oh, I can do anything. It does give you, like, that sense of, like, whatever's put in front of me, I can figure out, because I figured that out, which is a nice feeling.
- [58:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then there were times where I had to stand up to Jonathan about, like, my choices and stuff like that. So it just gives you, like.
- [58:33]
A
Yes. You had to be able to, like, defend yourself. Yes, that makes sense.
- [58:36]
B
Yeah.
- [58:38]
A
Okay. The name Sagrada means sacred in Spanish. How did you decide on that name, and what does that mean to you and your work?
- [58:44]
B
Work. Thinking about, like, the name of the firm and the kind of work that I want to do that I'm naturally gravitating towards. And even at that time and even what I lean into now, I knew that I wanted it to be a word that was not English to indicate that there's, like, a larger cultural influence worldwide, global. Because I do take. You can see it in our work. Like, I take so much storytelling from other places. Yep. So I knew that it couldn't be English, and I wrote down all these words about what home meant to me, and then I would look them up in different languages, and Sacred, you know, came up, and I looked it up in a few languages, and I liked how Sagrada sounded. I love, you know, the Sagrada Familia Church in Spain and all these things. So it just felt right. Yeah, I love that.
- [59:29]
A
I think that's really special. To your point about cultural influence, you talk about the value of cultural influence in your projects. How specifically do you feel like that comes out, and do you base it on your client's culture? Are you basing it on your cultural influences? Is it a mix? How does that work?
- [59:45]
B
When I think about culture, I think about the world at large and how it influences architecture. In certain places, I base it on my clients, but not. It's not always their personal culture. I really believe in this idea of not saving special experiences for vacation. And so I definitely think that where you're living and working and spending all your time should give you that feeling, that vacation feeling, you know. And so sometimes it's a place that is special to them. Sometimes it's a place like if they like a certain type of architecture, I'll go really like, if it's Spanish, let's just say I'll go really deep into like what that is in the world in my own house. We just bought a new house in November. It's a very mid century home. But I'm very fascinated by this idea of like Art deco around the world. That's the era of the house. It was like Art deco through mid century. And like, I just study a lot, I research a lot, like culture. Not from an ethnic standpoint necessarily, but from a global. What informs culture?
- [60:43]
A
Yes, that makes sense.
- [60:45]
B
Architecture. Sometimes it's religion, sometimes it's culture, sometimes it's food. So culture, the word culture encompasses a lot.
- [60:54]
A
Sure.
- [60:55]
B
That was kind of like an abstract.
- [60:57]
A
No, no, no, I think that's great. I had just never thought about it in those specific terms. And I think that's a great way to say it. Cause I, I mean, I feel the same way when I. I just went to Paris and I am. So I walked away from that experience feeling so inspired and excited for projects even though they weren't. None of my projects are necessarily French, but it's like taking pieces from all these different cultures that I've experienced.
- [61:23]
B
It's the way that I. I was at Deco off as well, and Design Week Design destination London too. Just last. I think I got back on Tuesday. But it's not like, oh, I'm gonna make everything Parisian or English. Right. It's a craftsmanship thing. They have years and centuries. Like even when I've gone to India, there's centuries of design that we just don't have here.
- [61:43]
A
Absolutely. And I mean centuries of makers and people who work with their hand. Like when I was in Morocco. That's the driving force of everything is like, you see them make things with their hands and it's unlike anything else. And to be able to take that into other design elements I think is exciting, exciting, exciting. We are to the END. Thank you so much for your time. This has been so fun. You talked about feeling. We are tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. What's something that made you feel recently? It can be anything. It doesn't have to be interiors specific. It can be though.
- [62:22]
B
Well, so I had a lot of big. We just, like I mentioned, bought a house in November. I had a lot of big feelings around that. Thank you. It is a dream home and it's a big stretch and now we have a big scary mortgage payment and a lot of stress. Also a home that we love, that our children will, that our children love, that we can see ourselves in for a long time. It's like a very special home. And so it took me a while to process all of that and I still feel a little like I'm living in this very adult house. But I'm like.
- [62:57]
A
I know exactly what you mean by that.
- [62:59]
B
I'm trying to grow into it, you know, like, I gotta grow into it.
- [63:02]
A
There's something lovely about that. Being able to be grounded in a place that you can grow into. There's something really special about that. I think that's great. Congratulations.
- [63:14]
B
Big feelings around the new house. Yeah.
- [63:17]
A
I can't wait to see what you do with it. I'm excited. Where can we find you? Social website, all of that?
- [63:23]
B
Yeah. Our website's sagradastudio.com My Social where I you can see my personality and all my yapping and my thoughts. Is Hema a Persad on Instagram and then the. If you're just a design person and you just want to see our work at SAGRadoStudio is the best studio account.
- [63:40]
A
Everybody make sure to go follow. And I can't wait to see what you continue to do. Hema, thank you so much for your time. This was really fun.
- [63:47]
B
This is was so great. I'm glad we got to chat.
- [63:50]
A
So fun. I had the best time. And please don't forget to rate, review, follow, subscribe, all those things. And until next week, peace be with you. Bye.