I confess... I slept with my client

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Confessions of an Interior Designer" – Episode: I confess... I slept with my client

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner delves deep into the complex dynamics of personal relationships within the luxury interior design industry. Joined by her esteemed guest, Paige Wassell—a celebrity interior stylist, content creator, and owner of Was the Store—the conversation navigates through their unconventional career paths, the challenges of high-end client interactions, and Caroline's bold confession of an affair with a client. Released on November 20, 2024, this episode offers an unfiltered look into the often-hidden emotional landscapes of interior designers working with affluent clientele.

Career Journeys: Unconventional Paths to Success [00:04 - 07:52]

Caroline and Paige begin by sharing their unique journeys into the world of interior design. Unlike many of their peers who pursued formal education in design, both women carved their own paths driven by passion and resilience.

• Paige Wassell’s Journey:

  • Background: Paige did not attend design school; instead, she studied communications and printing, influenced by her mother’s career in PR.
  • Early Career: Her aggressive approach led her to secure an internship at Vogue magazine during high school, despite lacking formal connections ("I had to email the HR guy. And I was like, wait, was I let go or was I fired?" [06:36]).
  • Transition to Styling: After being let go from a PR agency, Paige leveraged her Vogue connections to move into prop styling, working with Architectural Digest and high-end brands like Crate and Barrel and Joybird.

• Caroline Turner’s Path:

  • Initial Steps: Caroline shares her experience of starting her firm and her first internship, which was secured through unconventional means ("My first internship... was because I got drunk and emailed someone and was like, please, can I come work for you?" [08:22]).
  • Lessons from Rejection: Both women emphasize the importance of perseverance and using setbacks as stepping stones towards their current successes.

Building a Brand Through Social Media and Entrepreneurship [07:52 - 16:26]

The discussion shifts to how Paige harnessed the power of YouTube to build her brand and launch Was the Store.

• YouTube Success:

  • Content Creation: During the COVID-19 pandemic, Paige pivoted to creating YouTube content, which eventually led to her gaining 100,000 subscribers.
  • Monetization and Product Launches: Her video titled "Stop doing this shit to your house" garnered significant attention, providing the momentum needed to monetize her channel and launch her own home decor line.

• Strategic Thinking:

  • Future Planning: Both Caroline and Paige highlight the importance of long-term vision in business. Caroline discusses how TikTok has been instrumental in attracting clients who are already invested in her aesthetic from the outset.

The Confession: An Affair with a Client [27:20 - 37:13]

The heart of the episode is Caroline's candid confession about her affair with a client, titled "The Affair Behind the Drapes."

• Setting the Stage:

  • Caroline describes working on a high-profile project for an ultra-wealthy East Coast couple, where the wife was frequently traveling, leaving her to collaborate closely with the husband.

• The Affair:

  • Initial Interaction: The husband began by giving her compliments and bringing coffee, which gradually became more personal and intimate ("He'd bring me coffee during site visits... his compliments became more intimate." [28:25]).
  • Escalation: One evening, after a stressful day, the husband invited her for a drink, leading to a night of passion on a custom velvet sofa she designed ("One drink became three, and before I knew it, we were sitting on the custom velvet sofa I designed for his living room." [29:35]).
  • Aftermath: Despite the intimacy, the wife remained oblivious. However, Caroline continues to receive referrals from the couple, leaving her questioning whether the wife is aware of the affair ("To this day, I still get referrals from them." [34:34]).

• Moral and Professional Implications:

  • Power Dynamics: Both hosts discuss the inherent power imbalance in such relationships, especially when the client holds significant influence over the designer's career.
  • Ethical Considerations: They debate the ethical boundaries of mixing personal relationships with professional engagements, emphasizing the potential risks to one's reputation and business integrity.

Navigating Professional Boundaries and Client Relationships [37:13 - 58:46]

Caroline and Paige explore strategies for maintaining professionalism while managing personal interactions with clients.

• Handling Difficult Situations:

  • Client Trust Issues: Caroline shares a scenario where a renovation client repeatedly changes plans behind her back. Both experts advise open communication as the key to resolving such conflicts ("Caroline: [...] ask to have a meeting and sit down with them and say, okay, here's the inspiration that you initially liked." [49:03]).

• The Role of Prop Stylists:

  • Business Growth: Paige underscores the importance of specialized roles like prop stylists in high-end design projects, noting significant returns on investment. For instance, Joybird reported a tripling of sales due to her styling work ("We tripled the sales with my images because it's extreme." [55:58]).
  • Artistic Collaboration: The conversation highlights how prop stylists add a unique artistic touch to design projects, transforming spaces into pieces of art through meticulous styling and collaboration with artists.

Reflections and Personal Growth [58:46 - End]

The episode concludes with personal reflections on mental health, empowerment, and the importance of setting boundaries.

• Mental Health Struggles:

  • Paige’s Experience: Paige opens up about recent mental health challenges, emphasizing the support from friends and family as crucial in her recovery process ("Having people to hold the mirror up for you and be supportive [...]" [61:31]).

• Empowerment through Boundaries:

  • Digital Boundaries: Paige recounts her first experience with blocking a persistent individual, finding peace and empowerment in setting digital boundaries ("I did that for the first time, so that was pretty fun." [62:22]).

• Business Strategies:

  • Limited Edition Drops: Paige discusses the strategy behind her product drops—offering unique, limited-edition items that create exclusivity and demand. She encourages listeners to subscribe to her newsletter for updates on upcoming releases and pop-up events ("We're dropping pillows December 8th." [64:56]).

Key Takeaways

1. Unconventional Paths Can Lead to Success: Both Caroline and Paige emphasize that formal education in interior design is not the only route to success. Passion, resilience, and strategic use of opportunities like internships and social media can propel one's career forward.

2. Maintaining Professional Boundaries is Crucial: Mixing personal relationships with professional engagements can lead to ethical dilemmas and potential harm to one's reputation and business.

3. The Power of Communication: Open and honest communication with clients is essential in resolving trust issues and ensuring successful project outcomes.

4. Leveraging Social Media for Business Growth: Building a brand through platforms like YouTube and TikTok can significantly enhance visibility and attract high-end clients.

5. Mental Health and Self-Care are Vital: Managing mental health through support systems and setting boundaries is crucial for sustaining a long-term career in a demanding industry.

6. Specialization Adds Value: Roles like prop stylists play a critical role in high-end design projects, offering specialized skills that enhance the aesthetic and functional appeal of spaces.

Notable Quotes

• "I did not go to school for interior design. I did not go to school for design at all. I went to school for communications and printing." — Paige Wassell [04:14]

• "Rejection is a big piece of it... having that early on really helped it not be an issue." — Caroline Turner [08:49]

• "We tripled the sales with my images because it's extreme." — Paige Wassell [55:58]

• "If you can't succeed at this one thing you're good at, it feels like you're a failure at everything." — Caroline Turner [11:50]

Conclusion

This episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer offers an unvarnished look into the personal and professional challenges faced by interior designers working with high-end clients. Through candid conversations and Caroline's bold confession, listeners gain valuable insights into maintaining professionalism, the importance of communication, and the ethical considerations of personal relationships in the workplace. Paige Wassell's entrepreneurial journey further underscores the significance of leveraging social media and specializing in niche roles to build a successful design business. Whether you're an industry insider or a design enthusiast, this episode provides a thought-provoking and engaging exploration of the hidden facets of the luxury interior design world.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Or maybe just my mom. Whoever's tuning in, we know there's tons of great design podcasts out there that talk about trends, best business practices, and industry updates. This podcast isn't one of those. We're here to laugh, commiserate, and expose what really goes on behind the scenes. My industry friends and I will read and react to anonymous confessions submitted by you and share our perspectives, because, trust us, we've all been there. Here, we live by a few confession commandments. Thou shalt keep it anonymous. Thou shalt not hold back, and thou shalt embrace the laughs. We want this to be a safe place for you to come relax and let your hair down, because we're all on the same team. In the next episode, which is actually out now, we'll get into the backstory of why we started this podcast and what it's all about. But stick around. We're about to get into one of my favorite episodes. Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. Today, I'm here with Paige Wassell, celebrity interior stylist, content creator, and owner of Was the store. Hello, Paige. Thank you so much for being on.

[Paige Wassell]

Hi. Long time no see.

[Caroline Turner]

I know, right? Truly, it's been way too long. I feel like since you've been in la, it's a whole. Although we didn't even see each other that much in Chicago. Cause we're both together.

[Paige Wassell]

We were just busy. Well, actually, the timeframe that I lived in Chicago is a majority was Covid, so.

[Caroline Turner]

Covid. Yeah, I remember you moved, like, right before. Because it was right when I had started my firm and I had maybe started, like, six months before or something.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Which. That could be kind of fun to talk about how we met, because I feel like often. Often when I'm interviewing people, it's like, oh, we know each other through so and so designer. Or it's some sort of, like, interior design networking. But we met at a party.

[Paige Wassell]

I forget. What party was that?

[Caroline Turner]

It was one of my friend's Christmas parties that wasn't even, like, a big party. And, yeah, she had it, like, at her apartment.

[Paige Wassell]

Who did I get invited by? I forget.

[Caroline Turner]

I think someone who knew her from. Yeah, I think Emory. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Paige Wassell]

I was. I was on the hunt for friends at that time because I just moved to Chicago So all I knew were my, like, high school friends, which I love them, but I was like, I need, like, people, like, in the industry or design friends. And so my friend was like, yeah, I think it was Emory was like, come to this Christmas party. It was like a gift exchange or something.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly. I think you're right about that. Which, by the way, I want to do a favorite things this year party, which I feel like it would be so fun. I did that a couple years ago, and it's the best. Yeah. So I feel like the moral of the story is, go out in your early 20s, I guess, so you might meet some people in the industry.

[Paige Wassell]

I don't.

[Caroline Turner]

I think that's the only time that's ever happened to me. So it might be the exception and not the rule. But still kind of fun to be able to say yes.

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, I was on the hunt for friends. Like, I was like, let's go. And then Covid hit, and I was like. Like, right when I was, like, meeting people. And then Covid hit, and I was like, great. Sweet.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I feel like I went into Covid with a huge friend group. And then not huge, but a friend group. And then I left. We left Covid. And I was like, ok, so I've done this.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Literally no one lives here.

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, after Covid, I was like, I guess I'm moving back to Los Angeles. So. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Which I want to know about that. And, like, what made you decide to leave Chicago and all of that? Which this might sort of tie into the question that I ask everyone, which is, how did you get here?

[Paige Wassell]

Right here in my life right now?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, right here in your life right now.

[Paige Wassell]

How far do you want me to go back?

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, as far as you want. You can give me the Cliff Notes.

[Paige Wassell]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

But I think the point of this question is to illustrate that there isn't one way to get into this industry. And even though interior design is very specific, I think there's so many jobs in this industry where you can work with interior designers every day, and you don't have to have gone to scad or something.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

So that's what we're sort of trying to highlight.

[Paige Wassell]

I did not go to school for interior design. I did not go to school for design at all. I went to school for communications and printing. My mom works in pr. But I've always been a very creative person. Like, I did my 8th grade career report on being an interior designer.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God.

[Paige Wassell]

I love super interesting. And I used to always make my parents like, switch their rooms. I made them switch their dining room and their living room. And I, like, removed the wallpaper myself. I redesigned our basement, so I was always into that. But being from the Midwest, it's kind of scary to go into a creative field. I don't know, I feel like, for me at least, I'm from Geneva, which is a suburb outside of Chicago. So a lot of people, you know, you go to high school, you go to college, you get a good job, that kind of thing. So I was always a little scared to go into the creative side. So I kind of just followed my mom and did pr, and it was fun. I always worked in really cool companies, but in the PR department. So for instance, I actually interned at Vogue magazine in New York City.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, right.

[Paige Wassell]

My summer. Going into my junior year, I asked my parents. I was like, if I get three interviews in New York, will you fly me out? So I interviewed for Calvin Klein, Vogue magazine, and Nanette Lepore. Cool. Yeah. My parents flew me out and I ended up landing the Vogue one, which I just emailed the PR director. And I was like, I would love to intern from you. And I had some random experience just. Cause I've always been so intense about. I've always just been really aggressive. And like, I had an internship same. I had an internship, like, senior year of high school. Like, it was too much. The guy who hired me was saying he's never really received outreach from someone before that, like, wasn't through a connection kind of thing. So landed that. And then I continued on my PR path. And after college, I moved out to Los Angeles. I worked at William Morris Endeavor for a little bit. I worked for a production designer agent. So I worked the back end of, like, booking production designers, which is kind of crazy because that's eventually the route I took, but didn't know I was doing that at the time. Worked for a PR agency for eight months. Got laid off, slash fired. I would like to say.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure. Which, by the way, we should come back to that, because every business owner I know, that's like killing it, has been fired.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, me too.

[Paige Wassell]

I actually had to email. After I was let go, I had to email the HR guy. And I was like, wait, was I let go or was I fired? Like, can I apply? How do we unemployment term this?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

I felt like I should have been fired because I was definitely unhappy. And this is like, during a time where I was like, I want to, like, go into a creative field. I need to figure out what I'm doing. I Don't want to work this office job. But, yeah, it was, like, the best thing that ever happened to me. I was let go, and I immediately reached out to my contacts at Vogue, and I was like, hey, I want to. I don't want to get into fashion, but I'm interested in Architectural Digest, which is under Conde Nast. And they ended up connecting me with this woman named Lauren, and I ended up assisting her. And that's kind of like, what started my path to prop styling.

[Caroline Turner]

Incredible.

[Paige Wassell]

And I just assisted a bunch of different people in prop styling. Kind of found where I wanted to go with it, and I ended up going into this area of interior prop styling. So I was prop styling for interior brands like Crate and Barrel or Joybird. I was working for Architectural Digest after years of assisting in learning the routes. But, yeah, no schooling behind any of that.

[Caroline Turner]

Just grit.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. Just kind of, like, just being in it. Just learning it all through experience.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

So that's the start of, like, kind of how I got to prop styling. And I could go on.

[Caroline Turner]

And I hope you will. It's so interesting because everyone I've spoken to so far has the same exact. Obviously different paths, but it starts the same way. I didn't think I could have a full career in the arts. I did something that I didn't really want to do, but I felt like would be a more stable job. I hated it. I decided I had to do this thing. I'm the same way. My first internship, which was, you know, the get of the century, was because I got drunk and emailed someone and was like, please, can I come work for you?

[Paige Wassell]

Fine. I wanna do this.

[Caroline Turner]

So I feel like there really is so much to be said for putting yourself out there, and rejection is a big piece of it. But honestly, it's. I'm sure you feel the same way. It's really set the stage for this time in my life, because there's a lot of rejection in getting clients and projects starting and stopping. And I think having that early on really, like, helped it not be an. An issue.

[Paige Wassell]

Now, you know, I totally experience so much rejection. I mean, even working at William Morris Endeavor, which is. If you've seen the show Entourage, that's what the company is based off of. So it's, like, the craziest experience working there, because everyone is unhinged and rude and all of that. And I worked for an agent that was the worst person ever. Truly so mean to me. I worked there for, like, four months. I quit that job because I would go in being scared I, like, couldn't. I, like, wasn't performing my job well. Yeah, I eventually quit. And then basically, you start in the mail room, and then you have to, like, literally deliver mail to the agents with a cart. And then once an agent has a desk open up, like an assistant position, you go and interview for it. This woman never really. No. It's literally like. It's what you see on tv. It's pretty wild.

[Caroline Turner]

Whoa.

[Paige Wassell]

And then this woman basically was annoyed that her previous assistant quit, and so she basically had to hire me. And so it was just, like, this awful. And then when I told her I was quitting, I ended up performing well that next week because I had to retrain the new assistant. And she brought me into her office, and she was like, I'm sorry, I think you should stay. Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no. Goodbye.

[Caroline Turner]

Good for you.

[Paige Wassell]

And then I went and worked in at a small PR agency, and that's the one that laid me off or fired me.

[Caroline Turner]

Perfect. The universe was just so, like, you are not doing pr. Like, I'm sorry to tell you this, but this is not gonna work. Which, to your point, is the best thing that ever happened. Because I sometimes think when bad things like that happen, it does feel like if you look at it in a positive light, it does feel like the universe is giving you this opportunity to go and do the thing that it felt like you shouldn't do, because you tried it. You tried the thing you were supposed to do, and it didn't work. So at this point, I mean, obviously, as everyone knows, if you. I don't think that if you love your job, you never work a day in your life. I think that's bullshit. I think it all turns into a job. Even my employees, I love them so much, and they love working here, but of the day, they still want to go home. Because this is a job. Like, I'm not delusional.

[Paige Wassell]

I was just watching an episode of Girls, and it's like, where Hannah goes to Iowa, and it's like her dream school, like, to go pursue her writing career, and she ends up not liking it. And she says to her friend Elijah, like, I just. Like, this is what I want to do. Like, I thought, like, I was going to love this, and then Elijah was like, nobody likes what they do. Like, even if you like it, nobody actually likes it. I mean, it's still work. It's still hard, obviously.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Paige Wassell]

For me, it's like, I'm inspired, and I get to, like, be creative, but it's still like, I'm on the grind.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think, you know, it's certainly a privileged position to be doing a job that we actually do, like. Like, at its core.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I always say, only. I'm only good at one thing, and it's this. And that really does feel true. That really does feel true. I think that that can really. I mean, it can make starting a business feel so, so, so important. Because if you can't succeed at this one thing you're good at.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

It feels like you're a failure at everything. But if anything, it has made me work a lot harder knowing that there wasn't a backup plan, and this is what I'm doing. And we can add, but there is no. There's no safety net. There's no option here. And I feel like most people I know who are business owners are. There was a point in their life when it felt like, okay, well, the universe is forcing me into this, and then it works out.

[Paige Wassell]

But also, after I got laid off, I pursued this prop styling career, and I really succeeded in it. And I did it for nine years, and actually, I don't even prop style anymore. I've also transferred my career.

[Caroline Turner]

Interesting.

[Paige Wassell]

Outside of that now, I didn't know.

[Caroline Turner]

You fully didn't do it anymore. That's. So. I mean, I want to hear about that transition. What made you make that decision?

[Paige Wassell]

Well, Covid mainly, I would say. Sure. I mean, I do feel like I brought myself to the top of prop styling in a way. I was represented by art department, which is one of the bigger agencies out here, and I was doing jobs for Target and Amazon Home, and, like, they, like, strain your body. It's, like, so much physical work. So I think eventually I would have maybe taken some paths out of it, but it was nice to know that it can lead into two other things. But, yeah, when Covid hit, obviously all the sets stopped producing things. It was a huge, like, breakdown here in Hollywood. I'm not in movies, but pretty much everything that's produced out in Los Angeles kind of just shut down. I was in Chicago at the time.

[Caroline Turner]

You couldn't all be together.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly, exactly. So I was just kind of. And I was in Chicago doing prop selling there, but it also shut down there. So I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna throw up a few YouTube videos, because I used to be. I used to be a theater kid.

[Caroline Turner]

Same.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm pretty good on camera. I feel like I'm pretty comfortable with this, so I'm just gonna, like, throw up some videos and see what sticks. I had bought my condo at the time in Chicago, so I threw up some videos of me, like, doing some, like, random decorating things, some random, like, Reno stuff, but nothing really took off for me until I put up this video called stop doing this shit to your house. And I think that got me, like, 10,000 subscribers or something. Give me some w. Some momentum there. And then I was like, okay, I guess I'm getting paid now, so I'm gonna just keep doing this.

[Caroline Turner]

That adsense, baby.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, yeah. I kept putting up videos. And another reason of why I wanted to start YouTube was because I've always wanted to have my own home decor company or some type of company in general. I used to have a tapestry business called Tap and Tack that I launched right after college.

[Caroline Turner]

I love that.

[Paige Wassell]

Where I release tapestries with, like, unique fabrics. Kind of like the one behind you.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, cool.

[Paige Wassell]

Not exactly that. That's a little nicer. But when you think of a tapestry, you think of, like, medallions. And I did, like, you think of.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, college stoners that have it, like, behind their bed.

[Paige Wassell]

They were, like, cute ones. They were really cute. Actually, the Instagram still exists. Tap and Tack. It's so fun.

[Caroline Turner]

We got to go back and find that.

[Paige Wassell]

It's hilarious. But that was kind of my first, like, business venture in that way. And I've always, like, wanted to have a business. So I was like, how the hell do you launch a business if you don't have money to advertise it or people don't know about it? And so I was like, I'll just do YouTube. One, I was bored. Two, I had no job. And three, I was like, let's get some. Let's get some people to know who I am, I guess, so I can launch a business. So, yeah, I did you. After, like, a year and a half of it, I think I hit 100,000 subscribers. And that's when I launched my company.

[Caroline Turner]

Was it's, like, very strategic in the best way. That's, I think, again, a way. A helpful way to succeed is looking 5, 10 years in the future. I think it's interesting because when we posted our first TikTok video, it was not like, this is going to get us a bunch of clients. It was like, okay, well, I guess we're going to try this because there's not that many people, not that many interior designers on TikTok, so why don't we just, like, what's the harm? What the bad thing that can happen? And a lot of Designers will say, well, my reputation, it's like, not serious enough. But as I'm sure you found out, and so have I. The audience there is, like, very diverse, age wise. Oh, yeah. Demographics in general. But I feel like it really does bring a lot more than people thought it could. But rarely are you thinking, okay, this is going to be the thing that launches me to xyz. But you have that, like, general umbrella of, okay, if I can make this work, this is where I would want to go.

[Paige Wassell]

Right, right, Exactly. I mean, I was kind of like, it would be fun if I built an audience. It was also just fun for me to make videos. I mean, I'm still making the videos, but the opportunities that. That come from putting yourself out there are pretty wild. So it's kind of. I look back on it and I'm like, people ask me, they're like, how did you. What made you decide to, like, post a video? Or, like, what was your first, like, instinct to do it? And I don't. I don't remember why I decided. I remember filming it on my iPhone, so really wasn't too invested there.

[Caroline Turner]

But that's how we're still filming. I.

[Paige Wassell]

Basically, you have to take the part of your brain that, like, cares what anyone thinks and just, like, shove it away. Basically. I still have to do that because I'm still. I'm still on the Internet and still, you know, process trying to figure this stuff out day by day.

[Caroline Turner]

But do you have a snark page?

[Paige Wassell]

There's some Reddit pages on me, for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

That is, like, one of my biggest fears. I didn't even. I haven't, like, done. And neither have you done anything wrong. But the way that. That is the darkest corner of the Internet.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Do you. You don't read it right? You stay away from it or have you read it?

[Paige Wassell]

I don't really read anything about, like, I wouldn't. Yeah, no, I don't really dig into that stuff.

[Caroline Turner]

You're not, like, searching it out?

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, yeah. I don't look at, like, Google or YouTube analytics are pretty crazy. Like, the back end, it can tell you, like, this video is performing, like, worse than this video or like, you're going to make more on this video than you did on this video or whatever.

[Caroline Turner]

It is Interesting.

[Paige Wassell]

Your subscriber account is, like, not as growing as. I don't know, all of that. Like, I just. I just stay away from it. I used to look at that stuff, but I'm like, I got other things to do, so. Yeah, I'm not Doing that.

[Caroline Turner]

In some ways, being busy and having multiple jobs is helpful because if I was just doing a podcast or just doing TikTok or just doing an interior design business, I fear that I would be hanging on so tight to everything that it wouldn't have any room to breathe.

[Paige Wassell]

100%. Also, that's why I had to drop prop styling.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

Last year, slash the beginning of this year, I was so overworked. I had way too many things. Cause I had YouTube. And on top of filming for YouTube, you get sponsorships. So I have been booked on sponsorships. I post once a week. So there's not only are you filming a video, you're also filming videos for sponsors that have to be approved. I launched a newsletter, so there was also that. That I was taking care of.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Paige Wassell]

And then I launched my company was. Which was growing. And then I was also taking on prop selling gigs. So it was like I. I was.

[Caroline Turner]

Like this, a walking zombie.

[Paige Wassell]

I basically crashed. And so then I. Yeah, that's why I quit prop selling. But I still take on certain jobs, like if it's like a fun one or like architectural dive sometimes. But yeah, I can't even imagine doing it now because I'm still. My days are to the brim. I just hired an assistant. I'm about to hire a people.

[Caroline Turner]

That's awesome.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

How are you feeling about building the team?

[Paige Wassell]

It's been. It's been fun. It's definitely. This year has been like me slowly building the team. I have a financial team on board now. I have a shipping facility on board.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Paige Wassell]

I have manufacturers now. Well, they always. I always had manufacturers, I guess. But I used to ship like when our first drop happened, we shipped from my garage. And then the second drop, we shipped from my friend's garage because it was bigger. And then by the third round, we were big enough to get a shipping.

[Caroline Turner]

Facility by the third round. That is incredibly impressive. Congratulations.

[Paige Wassell]

But I owe it. I owe it to a lot of my YouTube subscribers and my audience because otherwise it's like, what? I'm just putting out this product and like, I don't know how I would have advertised it other than there's a.

[Caroline Turner]

Lot of product out there, so it's hard to break through. But your. Your audience already trusts you.

[Paige Wassell]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

So they're going to buy anything you give them, obviously, also because it's beautiful.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

But because you've set the precedent of trust with your audience, which is hard to do and incredible.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. I think like, we're like Friends, like, they're watching me every week.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

Showing my. I do home updates where I'm showing, like, how I'm decorating my home. I show behind the scenes of, like, creating the products, and I ask them for feedback. And I decided to launch Shower Curtains because it was a request from my audience.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, cool.

[Paige Wassell]

But also, as a prop stylist for nine years, I was constantly sourcing products. And you can relate to this. Like, you are constantly having to find good curtains or a good rug. And you'll see all these gaps in the market.

[Caroline Turner]

So many holes in the market.

[Paige Wassell]

And that's why I launched throw pillows, because I was like, I don't feel like there's any good throw pillows out there. And if there are, they're so expensive. And they don't need to be that expensive, to be honest.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, they really don't.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. So we create that. We're doing another drop of them coming out in December, and they're all made from vintage or dead stock fabric. So it's super fun. And I think that.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're also doing it sustainably, which is really, you know, admirable. It really is. Cause to deal with all the things that a regular business is dealing with and bring in that piece that is. Yeah. It makes your life more difficult. But, I mean, obviously, it's worth it.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally. I mean, now that we're growing and the demand is higher for these products, we are starting to outsource to make custom fabrics. Because there's only so much you can do with vintage fabrics. Cause when you find them, like, you can maybe find, like, 200 yards of a vintage fabric, which could produce you a ton of pillows. But for shower curtains, for instance, you have so much fabric being used, it's like you don't get as many. So we're kind of expanding in that way. But the whole premise of it is that you get a unique product. There's never Restocks or anything like that. So.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. And previously, you were talking about your bad boss. And I feel like this has been something for me too, that that bad boss has taught me now how to be a boss.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's the thing I focus on more than anything, which may or may not be the right thing to do. But everyone who's worked for me has been with us, like, has never left unless they were an intern and had to go back to school. So it's so crucial. And I feel like that's what is worth it about working these jobs that you hate that are traumatizing is because you really, really, really learn a lot about what you don't want to do to other people down the line. Or at least I'll speak for myself.

[Paige Wassell]

That's how I felt a hundred percent. I mean, even in prop styling, I've been hiring different assistants for every job. So I've been like a boss to so many different people for, like, nine.

[Caroline Turner]

Years, basically, which is almost harder because there's no consistency.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, well, you'll find someone that's consistent, but then they'll grow out of the assistant position. Because in freelance, like, you move along pretty, pretty quick.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

But, yeah, I definitely was like, I don't want to be a mean boss. Sometimes I thought, I think I'm, like, a little too easy, to be honest.

[Caroline Turner]

But probably same. Yeah. Yeah, probably same.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I had a friend who works for Amazon come, and she was like, you pay for their lunch and their parking. Like, you. What is wrong with you? I'm like, how does Amazon not. What is wrong with Amazon is the better question.

[Paige Wassell]

I know, right? Yeah. You got to treat them well.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, Jess Bezos was a billionaire multi over, you know, a thousand times over. So I feel like if we can do it, he can do it.

[Paige Wassell]

It's crazy the amount of people who have money and will jip out on it. Like, even with prop styling, like, all the clients will have, like, these low budgets or they won't budge. And I'm like, you guys are so. You have so much money. I mean, even now, working in, like, this past year, we've been taking on. I've been taking on more clients of, like, designing podcast sets or.

[Caroline Turner]

Cool.

[Paige Wassell]

Working with celebrities and on more, like, design projects, I guess. And you'd be surprised, even with that, like, the amount of times I've been asked to, like, just do stuff for free. And I'm like, come on.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, I'm not surprised. I mean, it is a little shocking at this point in your career you're being asked for that. But for probably two years of my business, people would be like, but we're one of your first clients, so if you did it for free, it's experience.

[Paige Wassell]

I'm like, I'll be like, we'll advertise you and, like, our ad. Like, I'll post about you. And like, brands pay this amount for to be posted, so that's, like, equivalent. And I'm like, well, I. I don't care about advertising, so, no, I have.

[Caroline Turner]

To pay my bills. Also, what is sometimes not understood is, like, especially when you get to a certain level, we're Saying no to projects. We don't need more projects.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

We need the right projects. We want ones that have correct budgets, that respect us, that want our opinions. And I feel like sometimes when you're working with other creative people or people who have some sort of stature in an industry, it can get, like, murky with what they're asking for. I think also because there's a lot of expectation when you are to that level that you just get things like. That's just your life.

[Paige Wassell]

I know.

[Caroline Turner]

So you get used to it. And then it's entitlement is how it comes across.

[Paige Wassell]

It's pretty mind blowing. It really is.

[Caroline Turner]

It really is.

[Paige Wassell]

I've been. Yeah, it's like. It's a new thing I'm experiencing now that, like, celebrities are starting to discover me through YouTube. It's honestly so shocking. And that's kind of where I'm, like, discovering this more so. Because when I'm doing prizes or those jobs, I'm working more with the producers and their team. But, Yeah, I know YouTube is. It's brought, like, this year specifically has been, like, so crazy with what audience it's brought me. So.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow, that is incredible. Well, I want to keep talking about this. I also want to get into some juicy confessions. But before we dive in, Paige, what is a vice? You partake in advice.

[Paige Wassell]

Like, it's like, something bad that I'm admitting.

[Caroline Turner]

It doesn't have to be. No, it can be something that helps you get through life. Like, it doesn't have to be salacious. But I do think, like, especially if you work in a service industry, even if it is luxury, there's, like, something we all do to take the edge off.

[Paige Wassell]

I see what you're saying. Okay. I would say reality tv.

[Caroline Turner]

No, that's a great one. That's a great. Are you a Bravo reality tv or are you doing, like, Netflix reality TV or what? What type?

[Paige Wassell]

I'm like, Love is Blind. The Bachelor. Oh, okay. I love, like, Summer House on Bravo.

[Caroline Turner]

Same.

[Paige Wassell]

I. I kind of go through, like, rabbit holes, and it's been kind of bad lately. Well, especially. Well, I've been single now for three years, and the amount of reality TV I've been watching, because I'm like, one day I'm not gonna be single, and I won't be able to do this all the time. And so I'm like, I have to. I don't. I shouldn't. I should save everything else, which is like, I have to save. It's like, what?

[Caroline Turner]

No, but honestly, that's so true. I'm the same way. I've been single for a couple of years, and I'm like, well, bachelorette dinner again tonight. Because one day I won't be able to do this.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

How long is that gonna hold up? I'm not sure, but for now, we'll ride with it. And reality TV is a great answer. Okay, are you ready to hear confession?

[Paige Wassell]

I'm ready.

[Caroline Turner]

Our first confession is called the Affair behind the Drapes.

[Paige Wassell]

Ooh.

[Caroline Turner]

All right, buckle up, because this one is wild. So I was early in my career working on a massive project for this ultra wealthy couple on the East Coast. Think a sprawling estate where you lose cell service somewhere between the guest house and the tennis court. I know you've been to some of those houses. Yeah. The wife was constantly flying off to Paris, New York, Ibiza. Ibiza, Anywhere but home. Leaving me to work closely with her husband, who truly couldn't care less about the design process. Ooh, my nightmare. Yeah, My nightmare. Genuinely. At first, it was innocent. He'd bring me coffee during site visits. We'd chat about the progress, and he'd comment on how hard we were all working and how I had such a great eye. But then the compliments became more intimate. I laughed it off. Oh, he's just a rich guy schmoozing with a younger designer, I thought. But as time passed, he kept finding ways to need to have separate conversations with me about the project. That, again, I knew he didn't care about.

[Paige Wassell]

Hmm.

[Caroline Turner]

Which it's interesting because I feel like, as women in this industry, we've all been put in a position where you're sort of like, I should go, oh, my God, yeah. Vibe that is off.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. I mean, 100%.

[Caroline Turner]

Not naming any names, but there have been clients that are like, you want to do a line with me? I'm like, I gotta go. Like, I don't. You know, it's very. Which. Not passing any judgment, but there is a time when you get that feeling and you're like, I got. I gotta get outta here.

[Paige Wassell]

It's like any workplace. Like, I feel like everyone experiences this anywhere, but it's interesting within interiors, especially, like, you're in their home. So.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. It's so intimate.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And there is a bit of a power, like a hierarchy, because obviously the clients are employing us. Right. So in some ways, I think in their head, it starts to feel like the help, which, like, for whatever reason, men seem to. Oh, yeah, well, we'll get there. One evening, after a particularly stressful day of managing deliveries, he invited Me to stay for a drink. I knew I shouldn't, but I couldn't help myself. He was older, sophisticated, and uber wealthy. But one drink became three, and before I knew it, we were sitting on the custom velvet sofa I designed for his living room. One thing led to another, and let's just say those drapes weren't the only thing getting a little rumpled that night. And maybe I'm terrible, but I didn't feel bad. I never, ever met the wife, and she certainly wasn't around for her husband either. I figured they maybe had some kind of arrangement. Ooh. I feel that this is a tricky.

[Paige Wassell]

I doubt they have. They had an arrangement. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I also doubt that they had an arrangement, because it just doesn't. I think that if you have an arrangement, that's the first thing you say is, we have an arrangement. If it's not being addressed, I fear that the wife has no idea.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Also, I will support a woman's rights and wrongs. However, I personally think that while it's absolutely his fault, like, she definitely knew they were together because they were her clients. Like, they were. They're married, technically, because she's doing their house. You know what I mean? So it feels like that's not one of those things that a guy picks you up in a bar and he's not wearing his wedding ring, and you eventually find out he's married.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

That is. Like, there's deception on his part. This feel, while there is a power imbalance, it feels like there was more of a choice.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. I think, like, even regardless if he even had a wife, he's employing you. So maybe you don't really want to mix those relationships anyway. So even if he was a single man, I think it's pretty tricky to go down that path, in my opinion.

[Caroline Turner]

I completely agree.

[Paige Wassell]

And if you were to maybe wait till after the project is completed, the project wraps. Yeah. Then there's no. The power dynamic's different, you know?

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and it doesn't feel. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship that the person was paying me in anyway.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, not for being in a relationship, but the fact that they could affect my bills and, like, my ability to pay my employees, that is a risk I would not be willing to take.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

No man is worth that.

[Paige Wassell]

No. I mean, even on set. Like, when we're on set when I was prop styling more, there'll be a lot of men that are similar in age to me. The photographer, or, like, even sometimes assistants. One of my friends, we Hired this guy as an assistant quite often. And then recently he liked her on hinge, which is like, so subtle and it's fine, but we were just like, whoa, that's so. It's such a ballsy line to cross.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Paige Wassell]

She was like, I'm not interested. So now I have to deny him. And it's like, she's probably not gonna hire him now. Like, it's just like, a little awkward.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know that I should tell this story, but I'm going to one of our handymen who, like, we hired all the time. Not like your typical handyman. He's probably like 33, good looking, but a short king. And I would have him, like, come to my house and install things for me because we trusted him. We'd worked with him for years. And he came to my house, was installing a light, and basically left my house and then texted me. And he was like, we both know what we want.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, you're like, what?

[Caroline Turner]

Like, huh?

[Paige Wassell]

You're like a light fixture.

[Caroline Turner]

By the way, I buried the lead. He's married and has six children.

[Paige Wassell]

So.

[Caroline Turner]

Huh.

[Paige Wassell]

So ballsy.

[Caroline Turner]

So gross. And now I'm like, I can't be there if we hire him. Like, this is so uncomfortable.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. Not worth it. Not worth it in business.

[Caroline Turner]

Not worth it. No. Okay. I was nervous the next time I saw him, but he acted completely normal and even invited me to dinner to celebrate the progress of the kitchen install. Huh?

[Paige Wassell]

The progress.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, yeah, I'm sure you can guess how that went. For weeks, every time I came by to check on the project, we'd review the plans, which often ended in a tangle of sheets or stolen kisses between furniture deliveries. It was the most exhilarating, reckless thing I've ever done. And the thrill was like nothing else. I feel like I'm reading a wattpad.

[Paige Wassell]

Ye. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. I don't relate because I feel like cheating is not a thing that, like, I think is hot, so. But I guess I wasn't there. I don't know. That is a.

[Paige Wassell]

It sounds like a fun thing in theory, but I don't know. I'm too business minded. Like, my brain would never even go there. Like, I feel like if a guy even hit on me, I wouldn't even know.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. The thrill was like nothing else. Until it wasn't.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And then just like that, it was over. The summer came to a close and the holidays started approaching and the wife came home more and more and the project wrapped up. We behaved when she was around, but I assumed he would still reach out to me, but never called. And I didn't reach out, mostly out of a fear of being caught. I'll never forget the final walkthrough, though. The wife led me through each room, marveling at how perfect it all was, completely unaware that the man beside her and I had practically christened half the furniture.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

Whoa. Okay. And if you can believe it, the final line is, here's the kicker. To this day, I still get referrals from them.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, wow.

[Caroline Turner]

Her specifically. Every time I land a new project because of her recommendation, I wonder if she has any idea what happened.

[Paige Wassell]

She probably does.

[Caroline Turner]

I can tell you. She does not if she's still referring.

[Paige Wassell]

Well, I bet even if it's the husband, he's probably, like, talking her up and being like, you should refer. Cause he doesn't want her to tell his wife. So he's probably being like, she's free, so.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, it's so messy. It's so messy.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, a little. A little too messy.

[Caroline Turner]

But also, I feel like a referral network is Typically, they're all friends.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And so, like, if you're working with people who are referred by kind of a difficult client, typically their referral is difficult because they're friends. Like, they. You know, they're okay with the same level of speaking to people a certain way or whatever it is.

[Paige Wassell]

Right. Definitely messy. And it's also just, again, so crazy, like, when you're in someone's home, like, the odds work. Stuff like this happens all the time. But then to be in someone's home is like, another thing.

[Caroline Turner]

So it's so personal, and I feel like the trust that you are trying to build the whole project.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, that would be like stabbing a knife into your client's back, which you basically did.

[Paige Wassell]

Don't do that.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, not condemning her in any way, but that is an interesting. Which, speaking of, because this is confession, we need to give some penance, which, if you're not Catholic, is. I won't call it a punishment, even though that's probably how the Catholic Church means it to be. It's more like something you need to do in order to move past whatever happened or make amends.

[Paige Wassell]

I've got a good one. We have to give her one.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, tell me. Yes, let's give her some penance.

[Paige Wassell]

Okay. This is a big one. She can't take on any client that's referred from them anymore.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, that's great.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I fear that I would have naturally already done that. Cause I would be so scared to get in deeper with that friend group that I would be like, I'm out of here. She is ballsy that she's still working, like with these people's friends. And I completely agree with you. That's penance. But that's also probably protection for her. Like she's playing with fire and needs to.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, it hurts her business, but she needs to not be there. So, yeah, it's fine.

[Caroline Turner]

And I'm gonna recommend a period of celibacy.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, there you go.

[Caroline Turner]

Just to really get some clarity, figure out what you're looking for and you know. No, make sure you love yourself. Because I'm not sure that if you really, truly, fully. I sound like a therapist, but I'm not positive that if you like really love yourself that you would even do that.

[Paige Wassell]

Well, it all comes from. Yeah, it all stems from deeper shit, you know?

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Like why.

[Paige Wassell]

Why would you want to hook up with someone who's married? But I don't know, I ask that question all the time of like, even like with friends out here and stuff. Like one of my friends boyfriends, just 5 years dumped her and then immediately started dating a girl, another girl like a week later. So obviously there was something, Whatever. But I was like, if I was that girl who seems like a normal. Like I've met her before, she's like, whatever. I'm like, if I was her. Why do you want to date a guy that dumps someone out for five years and then just like, because he's.

[Caroline Turner]

Gonna do that to you.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

How you get him is how you lose them.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly, exactly. So it's all like. It's all like inner shit of like being. Being accepted or being chosen by selfish person or whatever it is, you know, it all stems from something, but. But if you can just like talk yourself through it, you can get a therapist. Yeah, you can normally get yourself out of those situations, so.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. I think the more that you have like faith and belief in yourself, then you're less willing to cross those lines.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, it's like you don't think highly of yourself if you think that's what you deserve. Exactly. That's perfect way of putting it. You deserve more than a man cheating on his wife or someone leaving their partner for you. Like, it's just like, that's never gonna work out. It's never gonna be. You'll have like a nice little honeymoon stage and you'll have like a nice like ride.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I'm sure he'll buy you quite a few Nice gifts. But, like, is it worth it?

[Paige Wassell]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

Never. I don't think so.

[Paige Wassell]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

No, no, no. Okay. Well, in kind of a completely different vein, this one is called the Morality.

[Paige Wassell]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

Back at my old corporate design job, we had one meeting that felt more like an episode of a reality show than anything work related. Management was going over the usual professionalism on social media, upholding the firm's values outside the office, et cetera. But then the head of design took a wild turn. He started telling us about a situation in one of our other branches where an architect had been hired who, unbeknownst to them, was a serial cheater. Apparently, this woman was active on dating websites specifically for married people, and her personal life was the talking point of the meeting.

[Paige Wassell]

Hmm, gross.

[Caroline Turner]

Specifically because based on the pronouns here, it was a woman. And I'm just not positive that if a man. I'm assuming this is Ashley Madison. Cause that's like the for married people site.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And there was a leak.

[Paige Wassell]

I see.

[Caroline Turner]

And so.

[Paige Wassell]

And so they're talking about it in a business meeting.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. So she, the serial cheater, is not in this meeting. She's at a different branch.

[Paige Wassell]

Okay, but.

[Caroline Turner]

But the head of design is trying to give them a discussion on, like, professionalism and how to, like, be a good steward of the company, I suppose. And so he's bringing this up as the morality issue. They went on to dissect this woman's private life in front of all of us, questioning whether someone engaging in those types of relationships outside of work could truly, quote, represent the company values. The insinuation was that even though her work performance was solid, her personal life somehow tarnished the firm's reputation.

[Paige Wassell]

How would it tarnish the reputation? Like, is she, like, really well known that, like, all the clients would know?

[Caroline Turner]

I. It doesn't say. I mean, I have to assume that, like, certainly clients know her, but I'd be willing to bet that no, most of their clients have no idea. Like, there was thousands of people on that list. Unless you're, like, reading it for a purpose, you're not going to just know everyone who's on that list. I spoke with the person who gave us this story, and I asked her if there was anything that seemed to, like, affect her work. Was this affecting her performance? Affecting her performance in any way? Was she coming in crying? Was there an issue with anything? Did she miss something? And while she didn't know the whole story, the assumption is no, because there was. I don't even know that this would have been a discussion if they could fire her in any other way. Do you know what I mean?

[Paige Wassell]

Right. Yeah, I don't. The personal life coming into the work world is confusing because, I mean, if you look at anyone who has a job, there's gonna be people that are doing weird shit in their. In their home life.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. You know, and that. I don't know that that reflects on the company. I mean, although corporate world is crazy. Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, if you work for Amazon and you were, you know, on this list, I fear that you would be fired because you're not upholding the values that, like, are, you know, aligned with working there, Even though they're CEOs of billionaire, you know. But in my opinion, I don't think. Think I could say anything to someone unless their outside life was affecting what they were doing with work with me.

[Paige Wassell]

Like, what's going on? Like, why are you late? Why are you. Whatever. But yeah, no, I don't want to know about your personal life. Like, that's your own shit. Obviously it's different if you're like a. Like a molester or like, doing something crazy, but.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. If you need to go to jail, that's a different thing.

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, if you're cheating on your wife or you're cheating, that's like, what, Matt, The. Like, you're just, like, looking to cheat on your partner. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

You're looking to cheat, which is definitely not great. But there's also so much that we don't know. Like that. Which. That's how you say that cheating is ever good. But, like, there's a lot that we just have no idea about that we weren't given context for.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. I think it's just, like, dependent. Like, if it's like a really small company and like, you're like a team of three and you're working together every day, and, like, that's, like, uncomfortable. I guess there's reason, but I don't know. I guess I just respect that person a lot less, first off. And it might affect, like, future projects or things, you know, like, maybe I wouldn't want to work with them specifically. Cause I would just, like, respect them less or not at all.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, that's fair. And maybe I guess from a boss perspective, that seems like it would be. It would be a shakeup to the company that wouldn't make sense to keep them on. But I think there's also, like, some legalities there that I'm not.

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, think of, like, Bill Clinton and that whole. Whole thing, you know, and like, I mean, like, freaked out and like, yeah, it like made it gave him a bad look, but he was still had a job.

[Caroline Turner]

But yeah, the man who's running for president.

[Paige Wassell]

But I know Trump has done crazy ass and he's.

[Caroline Turner]

I was gonna say he's literally a convicted rapist. And people are like, no worries. So I don't know that this woman.

[Paige Wassell]

Should be hung out to dry circumstantial with like the company and like, what's happening. But. But I guess, like, whatever you do on your own time is your own shit. But yeah, again, it's like the circumstances so well.

[Caroline Turner]

And she says. I sat there just baffled. Since when did our personal choices outside work hours dictate whether we were fit to be architects, designers, or whatever our job titles were? And it led to so many questions in my mind. Would I want my job security tied to someone's interpretation of my morality? Which is a great question. At what point does someone's private life actually impact their work performance or office dynamics? What's the line between respecting someone's qualifications and unnecessarily moralizing their private life? It was honestly shocking and made me question if this company valued people for their work or for conforming to some sort of personal code of conduct I'd never agreed to.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. I just don't think, like, HR can be involved in like, your, your personal shit, your day to day. I think it's like, there's some like, legal shit in that too, that you can't fire someone from. Stuff like that also.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, the problem is that most states are at will, so, like, you don't actually really need a reason to fire anyone lately, you know, these days. Not to sound like a boomer, but I do think that that is. I don't know, I just like, how many times have we heard of like, male CEOs that are cheating and have like five mistresses and a baby from somebody else and it's like, not that big of a deal and they're still the CEO.

[Paige Wassell]

The amount of affairs that are happening of like, people absolutely coming. And so it's just like, if you're gonna investigate me, then investigate everybody also.

[Caroline Turner]

Everybody else.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah, it's just. Yeah, there's too much of it, to be honest.

[Caroline Turner]

If someone's a drunk on the weekend, but they don't. They aren't drunk when they're coming to work, what is that? Why is that my problem? Unless, yeah, it starts to affect their work performance or they can't get through the day or whatever it is.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I think it's similar, but no one's asking those questions. No one's saying so and so did X. Right. I don't know. That's. It's a very interesting.

[Paige Wassell]

It's a fine line. It's all, like, based on, like, the actual circumstance, but I agree with you. Interesting.

[Caroline Turner]

What would you do if you found out that one of your employees was on Ashley Madison?

[Paige Wassell]

Well, I mean, I feel like whoever I hire, I'm also like, I want to have a personal relationship in a sense, like, keep it business, but also, like, be able to, like, talk to each other about some stuff. So I don't know. It would depend on the person, I guess. And if it was, like, someone I felt like I could, like, be like, what's going on? Like, why? Like, I want to know what's deeper that's making you want to do this, I guess. But, like, it's just also, like, not my business. So I honestly don't know what I would do. I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

It's. It's so hard.

[Paige Wassell]

I feel like. I think there's nothing you can do. I don't think you can talk to anyone. There's really not about your personal shit, so.

[Caroline Turner]

There's really not. I mean, yeah, I would be. I feel like my employees, I definitely do have a personal relationship with them, and sometimes there'll be, like, fights with boyfriends and stuff, and they will sort of talk to me about that. But there's a line like, they're obviously not telling me everything. They're giving me Cliff Notes that they would tell their boss and so. Right. And that I'm only ever talking with them about that. A, if they bring it up, or B, if it's like, you know, they're crying during the workday or something. Otherwise. Yeah. You can't say anything.

[Paige Wassell]

Right. It would just make me question, like, if I can trust them. I think I just keep, like, a really close eye, just being like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

If you're doing that behind someone's back, like, could you be doing something with the company, money or.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I do think, because the people you hire, especially when you're so small, you have to trust them implicitly. And so the idea that there's something that they're not as trustworthy with in their life, that does bring up, like. I understand it from that perspective.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

I suppose.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. Interesting, though.

[Caroline Turner]

Do we have penance for. Who should we give penance for? I don't even know. There's multiple people. We could give Penance to, I guess, the woman that. That happened to.

[Paige Wassell]

I don't think anyone deserves a penance. It's just like. Did she end up getting fired?

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know. It did not specify. I believe so. Based on what? The person we spoke with about it. Yes, I do believe she got fired. If anything, her penance is like a martini and a hot bath and a new job.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, just. Just go figure out your shit and maybe don't, like, be public and maybe a divorce.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

If you're. If you're gonna do that, maybe keep it more hush if it companies are gonna care if that's the industry you're in. And I guess that company needs to just, like, reinstate their, like, guidelines and their rules before hiring people. Just being like, what you do outside of work also reflects us.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, yeah, I guess a code of conduct could be brought into play.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because then if employees have to sign that, I do think there is, like.

[Paige Wassell]

More if it really could affect their reputation. Y. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a couple of questions, if you are open to it.

[Paige Wassell]

I'm ready.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. I have my first renovation client, and she keeps going behind my back and changing things. I feel like she doesn't trust me. What do I do?

[Paige Wassell]

Open communication. I feel like I'm, like, very good at talking with the client or making sure they feel comfortable to tell me things. And, like, if they want to work with other people or do other things, like, as long as we're just open about it, I'm like, I. You know.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

Unless it's in the contract that, like, it's an exclusive thing or whatever. I think, like, just being open on the communication would be what I would do.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure. I mean, that, I think is absolutely key. I also think, for me, this has happened before, for sure. Often what I will do is ask to have a meeting and sit down with them and say, okay, here's the inspiration that you initially liked.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

This is why I've made these decisions so far to get you to this final point.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

What are you not feeling good about? Why it's. Communication is the bottom line. But I try to do it in person. Cause I feel that it's disarming. Like when they're at night, at midnight, on their computers, like, oh, I think this is better than this. That they're not thinking about it. Like, they're dismantling the entire design we've spent months on. Exactly. Because they're not understand the implication of this changes this.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So I find that if that's explained to them and I have had to say, I might not be the right designer for you.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like there is a point when you're like, okay, I have to step away totally. But you're right, communication is absolutely the key in all of this.

[Paige Wassell]

Going into it in like a very calm manner. Like, I feel like I approach anytime there's a problem. Like, I'm not just like, why were you doing that? Like, a lot of times clients or people you work with, like don't understand, like exclusivity or they don't understand like how that even works. So going into it without even like being angry or like having any feeling towards it, I think is helpful. And I guess like my, I always say I'm like, my communication background always comes in handy because I'm always client facing. And I think a lot of times people want to work with me and with you and stuff. It's because they wanna work with you as a person. Like, they like your designs, but you're also working with these people for sometimes years and you wanna like them to be honest.

[Caroline Turner]

So it feels like a marriage in some ways. Like you are married to your clients for how. Especially if it's a new build.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Two, three, four years even. That's longer than most of my relationships.

[Paige Wassell]

So with, with YouTube, bringing back to YouTube, I think I'm able to land a lot clients, especially like these like more exclusive or like celebrity ones because they, when they watch my channel, they're like getting to know who I am and they don't even like have to do that. So they're just like you. We like, we like who you are already. So it kind of like helps in that, in that way.

[Caroline Turner]

I agree. I also feel like for me, TikTok has really been vital because people are attaching themselves to my designs and like my aesthetic.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Not always the same, but you see that people were coming to me for like a super industrial contemporary and because we needed money, cause we were early, I would be like, sure, and we'll try to make it work. But it's a square peg, round hole. So for TikTok, the fact that they're like, we see the style you're doing. That's what we want our house to look like.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

There's like a. They're more bought in from the beginning, so it's less about like a design. I'm not their assistant. They're like listening to my thoughts and opinions because that's why they sought me out.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. They're hiring you for your style.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Whereas if it's a referral, I feel like they're just hiring you because their friend said that you finished the project.

[Paige Wassell]

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's such a difference.

[Caroline Turner]

You know what I mean?

[Paige Wassell]

In prop styling is like that too. Like, I'm like, are you hiring me because you want my expertise or like, you just want me to do what you want? And honestly, with prop styling, because the jobs are so short, I never cared. I was always like, I'll do, like, whatever. I'll do what you want. Sure, if you're paying me, I'll do what you want, or you can hire me for my expertise. I think it's a little different in your fields. Like, you don't want to go on a two year project just to do what they're saying, but, well.

[Caroline Turner]

And if they start that way, it, like, doesn't get better, it gets worse.

[Paige Wassell]

And so at the end of the day, they don't know. They aren't interior designers or they aren't. They don't have that. You have to, like, let go of some of your, your stuff and let the expert come in.

[Caroline Turner]

And the best projects, the ones that everyone loves, are always the ones that the client let us have. More freeway.

[Paige Wassell]

Those are my favorite.

[Caroline Turner]

Do what we're good at.

[Paige Wassell]

And those always perform the most, especially with prop styling.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like they're always the ones that are in press. They're always the ones that are. I mean, my house, even which you styled, that is easily the least amount that anyone has ever spent on a renovation with us, because it was me. But that is the home that a lot of clients reference. Yeah, they'll be like your pink dining room, or you're this or you're that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that $5,000 dining room. But it's because I didn't have anyone telling me no. Right. So I was able to like, go push it to what I thought was the limit, and then to bring in someone like you who's a genius and.

[Paige Wassell]

Can make any space look perfect, that ending touch.

[Caroline Turner]

And that actually segues into our second question. And this one, I think, is definitely for you. I'm a new designer. I've always styled my own shoots. But I've been seeing more and more designers using interior photo stylists on their. Can't I just do this myself?

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, you can, but every time I show.

[Caroline Turner]

Do you.

[Paige Wassell]

Anytime I work with an interior designer, if I'm their first prop stylist, they like they freak out because, one, they're not stressed all day trying to do this job that they don't have experience in. It's a. It's a whole different world. When you're photographing a place, you're moving things in different angles. You're setting up things and bringing in items that you wouldn't necessarily have in the space, but maybe you would have in the shoe. So a lot of times they are like, wow, I could never go back. Once you get a prop stylist, it's definitely a very specific job. And also, I think for a lot of interior designers, they've had their eyes on these projects for a year minimum or whatever it is. So having someone come in and, like, with a fresh perspective, I think can just add some nice oomph to a photo. But it's a very specific job that people don't understand what goes into it and how much it can transform a space. And so I do think it's really worth it to splurge on this. And that actually brings me to actual stats that I have. So Joybird furniture. I was their first prop stylist. They always had someone on their team prop style these shoots. And so I was their first one that came in, and they did a month trial with me where I designed all of their sets and styled all of their furniture. And the producer told me that we tripled the sales with my images because it's extreme.

[Caroline Turner]

I believe it wholeheartedly.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah. So if you're thinking about that, you don't want to invest in a prop stylist. I. It's. It's the same thing with a photographer. Like, that's why you want the photographer, a stylist. Like those. These images are so important for new clients or sales or whatever it is. It's crazy what it can do. I was shocked by those numbers. I was like, whoa, that's.

[Caroline Turner]

That. Is that. Talk about roi. That is wild. Wow. I also. I mean, we've worked together, so I can speak from experience that it is truly a different space when a prop stylist is styling for photos. And like you said, you're not styling for, like, the everyday static living. We're styling for it to often look like it's lived in, that it's not cold and static. So I feel like that piece is so vital to the photos. I will walk into sites before the stylist gets there and be like, what the fuck are we gonna do? Like, holy shit. Cause often, at least for us, the client will move in in the summer. And then we'll shoot the next summer.

[Paige Wassell]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Because if you're an interior designer, you know, you can only shoot a couple of months out of the year, especially in Chicago, because we don't want, like, dead branches into that. So I feel like that the other thing people don't understand is that you're basically a florist during. As you're styling everything else. I think people don't get that, that you guys are bringing, like, things from the flower mart and wherever else, and then you're making the arrangements for the specific photo. I think that's not something that not everyone understands.

[Paige Wassell]

No, there's. There's so much that goes into it. Like, I mean, we could bring in as many. Sometimes the budgets are so high for Architectural Digest, we still, even with celebrities or people who have amazing homes, like, we're still bringing in so much stuff to, to help this space. A lot of times, though, it's because people's homes are personal. And so when you're photographing it, it's like, we shouldn't feature this art piece that you only have because it got handed down from, like, your great grandpa and you love it. But it might not really work for the space. So I think a lot of it is also, like, removing more personal items or stuff that isn't complementary to the space and replacing it. And so, yeah, I mean, Architectural Digest uses Propso on every single shoot. So if that's not convincing you, I believe it. To use exactly what will, then I don't know. Wow.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, I could have assumed that, but I hadn't thought about it in that way. That is. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like I am the type that I will never go back. Like, we have to have a stylist on every shoot.

[Paige Wassell]

Also, interior designers can get work done in the day. They don't have to dedicate a whole day to styling the shoot. Like, a lot of them will be in the other room, like on their computer working on their projects. So it's just all around helpful and.

[Caroline Turner]

Especially if you're shooting a whole home. And I think also most people who are listening will probably know how expensive these shoots are. Like, for a two day shoot, we're looking at like 10 grand between the photographer and the stylist and the florals.

[Paige Wassell]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

And it can definitely go up from there. That's probably the median. And so employing a prop stylist helps us move onto other spaces and make sure that, like, bookshelves are styled right, things are cleaned up, and then you have a clean Slate to come in and create what is really a piece of, like, as you know, when we're looking at the iPad and they're framing up the camera, it's the same as, like, if you're gonna paint a still life, like, you're making sure that it's balanced, the light is hitting things correctly. Like, each photo is. It sounds so douchey, but is really like, we're working for it to be a piece of art in its own right.

[Paige Wassell]

That's how I feel about it.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think that is. So that's when a stylist. Prop. Stylist specifically, really comes into play. If you want it to be like an elevated piece of material.

[Paige Wassell]

I definitely highly recommend, if the budget allows. I think it's worth it for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We just won't do shoots if we can't make it work. Make it work. Make it work. We're gonna end with a couple of things that made you feel this week. CTI's tagline is Interiors that make you feel. And I think we talk a lot about beautiful things. But, yeah, I was wondering what made you feel in the last couple weeks.

[Paige Wassell]

It's crazy that we're doing this interview now because I have had, like, some mental health stuff in the past few weeks, which has been pretty gnarly. I think now that I'm kind of coming out of it a little bit. My. Some stuff that made me feel were a lot of support for my friends, which was. Which was great. And my family just. I just had like a little crash and burn for a bit. Overworked, overwhelmed.

[Caroline Turner]

All it happens when you're running yourself ragged like we do, which feels necessary, but, yes, it's. You're eventually going to come to a skidding halt.

[Paige Wassell]

Yes. And then another thing that made me feel good was a really good pizza that I ordered last night. So I was like, I love it. Good. And I'm super excited for people in la.

[Caroline Turner]

Where do you get it from?

[Paige Wassell]

Triple Beam. It's a really good pizza place if you live in Los Angeles. Triple Beam is real good because pizza is better in Chicago, but they have a few spots out here.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, LA is not. Not a pizza town. Definitely not. Also, I think I feel like with mental health, sometimes, at least I'll speak for myself. When I'm having mental health issues. It feels like I can't remember what it was like before and I can't remember. I can't get out of what it will be like after this passes.

[Paige Wassell]

It feels like this is me, this.

[Caroline Turner]

Is now, and this is forever, and I'm done. And so having people to hold the mirror up for you and be supportive, but also reflect back that this is just a season and it's not who you are as a person, I think that is so beneficial.

[Paige Wassell]

You're like, this is who I am now. So it's good to have people to be like, you're gonna come out of this chill.

[Caroline Turner]

It's gonna be okay. In a couple weeks, you'll have a different personality. Don't worry.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly. Oh, one other thing that made me feel fun. I blocked the man.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm so proud. That is incredible. The block button is one of the best modern inventions.

[Paige Wassell]

I know. I've never done it. I've always been like, I'm fine. I. Whatever. I've never really, like, had an experience where I, like, actually had to block someone either. So, yeah, I did that for the first time, so that was pretty fun.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow. It kind of is empowering. You're like, ha.

[Paige Wassell]

I was like, I've done this a while ago.

[Caroline Turner]

I've certainly blocked some people, but it's more for, like, I'm the type that I need a clean break. If we're done, you'll never hear from me again. You'll never see me again, and I don't want to hear from you or see you ever again.

[Paige Wassell]

I mean, me and dies, we ended eight months ago. And I basically was like, we have mutuals. So I was like, listen, if we see each other out, it's all good. He was a dick to me, but I was like. Like, it's all fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Which is very nice of you.

[Paige Wassell]

He hasn't stopped contacting me for eight months. It took me eight months to block.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. Well, I am so more proud of you than I even thought I was, because. Wow, that is. But also the peace that you probably have now. The peace.

[Paige Wassell]

The what?

[Caroline Turner]

The peace that this has brought. And you did not have this man blowing up your phone.

[Paige Wassell]

Yes. Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

No, internal peace. I was like, what? Piece of. What? No. Yeah, no, the. It's kind of amazing. I'm like, whoa. Now, like, when I post something on Instagram, I'm gonna, like, hear back from him immediately. Or, like, I'm not gonna get, like, random texts from him. I don't know. It's all, you know, being single.

[Caroline Turner]

But, yeah, never done that.

[Paige Wassell]

So now I'm gonna do it.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow. And now you're empowered to continue to do it. Cause it really is kind of fun. Okay, before we hop off, I want to talk about was because I know that you guys are like doing rolling drops. And as I'm sure most people listening know, they're like nearly impossible to get. Which is a great thing for you. Obviously. It's so fun. They sell out so quickly. So what do people need to do? Is there like a way they can sign up to know when there's drops? Give us the down and dirty.

[Paige Wassell]

We basically drop a unique product every three months. It kind of depends if you want to know when the. I will tell you when the date of the drop is. But if you want to know the time of it, which is what will give you access. Cause it depends on the product. Some stuff. The shower curtain sold out in 45 minutes. We've had things six hours. It just like kind of depends. But if you want to know the time, you can sign up for my newsletter. I let you know time in the newsletter. So if you're. If you're eager to snag a product, you can also. We do pop ups. We did one in Chicago, we just did one in Los Angeles. We're doing one in New York in June. So that will be announced.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing. That's so exciting.

[Paige Wassell]

I know. They're so fun and we always get like such crazy turnouts and they're always like a party. We always have wine and music. And the next one is in June in New York. And at the popups you get early access to the product drops also, which is pretty fun.

[Caroline Turner]

Very cool. That's very smart.

[Paige Wassell]

But yeah, we're dropping pillows December 8th. We're doing a.

[Caroline Turner]

Just in time for Christmas.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly. If you want like a little gift to give people next year. We're doing more shower curtains. We're doing bedding, we are doing lamps and unique lampshades.

[Caroline Turner]

Lampshades. That's so exciting.

[Paige Wassell]

Each drop is a little different. You either I design the products or I collaborate with a small artist and we come out with products together. The bedding is with an artist, a New York based artist. And then the lamps are with a Los Angeles artist, which. Which is all talked about.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, it really is like functional pieces of art that you're selling because you are working with artists one on one. And that is really special. I think that's what makes up a collected and warm home is those types of pieces that have a story to them.

[Paige Wassell]

Exactly. And they're all limited edition. There's never any Restocks. So that's kind of the whole premise of was it's like you're getting like a vintage inspired piece and it's one of a kind. Only a certain amount of people are gonna have this and you'll never get it again. So I love.

[Caroline Turner]

I love exclusivity.

[Paige Wassell]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Paige Wassell]

That's it for was. But other than that, you can watch my YouTube channel, Paige Wall, your videos are incredible.

[Caroline Turner]

I certainly watch them. And I can't wait for the pillow drop. I know that I'm going to be signing up for the newsletter, so I know the time because round of pillows.

[Paige Wassell]

It's a very unique round. A lot of dark colors.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm so excited. Oo. I'm so into moody right now. I feel like that will align.

[Paige Wassell]

Personally, we call it like, it's like dark office vibes. So, like, the patterns are very, like, office feeling. I don't know how to explain it.

[Caroline Turner]

But it's like Ralph Lauren or more like.

[Paige Wassell]

No, think of like, old 70s office. Ooh, cool. So, like, some of the fabrics feel like indoor, outdoor. You'll have to. If you follow me on Instagram, Wasselpaw or was the store I post, I'll do like, sneaks of, like, stuff that's coming out.

[Caroline Turner]

So we'll have to look out for that. Amazing. Paige, thank you so much for being here. This has been really fun. I'll see you guys next week. In the meantime, peace be with.