I confess… I was suspected of an affair

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: I confess… I was suspected of an affair
Podcast: Confessions of an Interior Designer
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Audra Kavit Deonga, Founder of Art Artifact
Date: January 7, 2026

This episode dives into the personal and professional complexities of working with high-end residential design clients, especially as they intersect with art, relationships, and the occasional scandal. Host Caroline Turner and guest Audra Kavit Deonga, an art historian and designer, react to two listener confessions: one involving a designer being mistakenly embroiled in a client’s relationship drama, and the other about a design project centered on an allegedly stolen painting. Their conversation explores the importance of art in interiors, navigating client dynamics, and the beauty (and messiness) of creative careers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Audra Kavit Deonga (00:04–04:48)

• Audra’s path from studying art history and painting to blending art advising with interior design:
  • Sees a gap between traditional, institutional approaches to art and the opportunity to help people live with meaningful art at home.
  • Quote (Audra, 02:14): “There is a specialty, special area of expertise and knowledge that I think to really find quality works and identify great artists, you do need to know more than just aesthetics.”
• Caroline acknowledges her own lack of art expertise and the need for specialists like Audra in high-end projects.
• Audra’s work sits “in between” pure design and art advising, focusing on helping clients invest intentionally in meaningful collections.

2. Art Collecting for Living, Not Just for Investment (04:48–14:35)

• Most art is bought to be lived with, not stored in vaults; only a tiny percentage is held purely as investment.
• Caroline shares her preference for art enjoyed daily over art hoarded as wealth.
• Discussion of high-profile collectors (e.g., Alicia Keys and Swizz Beats) whose philanthropic collections are shared publicly.
  • Quote (Audra, 10:13): “Their intention...was that it would go out and meet the people...providing access, that they’ve built this fabulous collection where...all those pieces together make something much bigger and more valuable than just one work on its own.”
• Audra prefers intentional, accessible collecting over financial speculation.

3. Designer Confessions Segment

Confession 1: Suspected Affair Between Designer and Client (19:34–39:05)

Summary:
A designer gets tangled in a client couple’s toxic dynamic when the girlfriend wrongly accuses her of having an affair with her boyfriend, all during a stressful renovation install week.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• The boyfriend obsesses over minute design details (“spending 15 minutes debating two almost identical cabinet pulls...needed time to ‘sit with it spiritually’” (20:34)).
• The girlfriend is checked out, cold, and becomes convinced the designer is “the other woman” after misinterpreting messages.
• Caroline: “I felt like I was trying to calm down a tornado.” (22:10)
• Contractor explains girlfriend’s history of suspicion: after prior drama with a realtor, every woman became a threat.
• The designer learns to consider charging a “relationship instability surcharge.”
• Key question: How should designers handle client drama that goes far beyond design? (24:54)

Advice & Insights:

• Audra: “You just need to know your boundaries...you have to walk away. Sometimes you have to.” (25:57)
• Caroline adds that toxic clients end up costing time and money: “Often these projects are the ones I end up spending my own money to finish...You lose money on that job no matter what.” (26:36)
• Both suggest strong client agreements with “no asshole clauses” and clear exits.
• Importance of identifying warning signs in couples (disagreements, lack of trust) early—“You’re not a couple’s therapist.” (30:56)
• Audra on setting up written client roles and decision hierarchies to avoid conflict (31:30).
• On couples, Audra suggests: “I always coach them to let each other have wins...” (32:54)
• Caroline compares client conflict mediation to “splitting a cookie between children.”

Client Penance:
Both hosts laugh: therapy or a divorce for that couple!

• Caroline: “Maybe six months go to the desert and learn how to be together...or maybe a divorce.” (36:33)
• Audra: “The right decision is to not engage with somebody who puts you in that position.” (33:48)

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Confession 2: The Stolen Heirloom Painting (39:13–55:18)

Summary:
A designer crafts a room around a family heirloom painting, only to be contacted by the artist’s granddaughter, claiming it was stolen decades ago. The piece is ultimately surrendered by the client’s parents after legal back and forth.

Reactions & Quotes:

• Audra: “A lot of artwork does...there's a lot of art out there that has been stolen.” (42:44)
• She shares that art theft, fakes, and provenance issues are more common at higher price points; designers can generally trust clients, but if something feels ‘off,’ that’s a red flag.
• On a solution: “The obvious answer...the family returns it, but they make a copy, and then they get to continue to, like, live with...a facsimile of the work.” (45:21)
• Both note the emotional complexities—art has its own layered provenance, families get attached over time, and returning a long-held piece can be difficult.
• The painting’s journey highlights the importance of due diligence with heirlooms and how layers of ownership can complicate design narratives.

Broader Reflections—On Beauty, Mess, and Creative Growth (48:46–55:18):

• Audra: “You wouldn’t know what was beauty if you didn’t know what wasn’t...It’s not a life if nothing happens.” (49:18, 51:32)
• They discuss the importance of failure, adversity, and the “messy middle” of creative work:
  • Audra, quoting George Clooney: “Success doesn’t interest me. I’m only interested in failure. You learn nothing from success.” (52:29)
  • Caroline: “That’s why I’m doing this podcast—there’s so much that’s like, here’s how I’m great...the messy middle is the piece that I find so interesting.” (53:03)

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4. Audra’s Practice: Putting Art First in Interiors (55:32–62:19)

• Audra starts conversations about art immediately, even when clients lack a collection; she encourages budget earmarks for meaningful art purchases.
• On process: “Set aside a substantial part of the budget for a potential artwork...don’t let other stuff squeeze it out of the picture.” (56:45)
• Art that “matches” the design is often mediocre; real impact comes from standalone, meaningful pieces, sometimes in deliberate juxtaposition to their setting (58:49).
• On identifying meaningful pieces: deep, empathetic listening to client’s memories and connections; sometimes the most meaningful “art” is a child’s drawing (60:59).

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5. Audra’s “Artist Eye” Collection (62:54–71:12)

• Inspiration drawn from late 18th-/19th-c. “lover’s eye” portrait jewelry; Audra collaborated with a UK painter to create contemporary pieces based on the eyes of historic female artists.
• The project was triggered by noticing obituaries for artist Françoise Gilot focused only on her as Picasso’s muse, not as an artist herself—fueling Audra’s drive to recenter women as both subject and object in art.
• “There’s this incredible intensity...when women look back, when women gaze, it’s an undesirable thing. It’s not demure, it’s aggressive. I want women to be seen as looking and engaging, but also that look...as something beautiful.” (67:43)
• The collection is both research-driven and deeply personal; Audra shares the story of creating a portrait-jewel of her husband’s eye as a surprise gift.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Art’s Place In Our Homes and Lives:

• “If there's soul in the art, it brings it to the space...it can impact the space in a very positive way in a way that it may be missing otherwise.” — Caroline (07:32)
• “You’re not a couple’s therapist—there’s nothing you could do to fix it.” — Caroline (30:56)
• “I always coach [couples] to let each other have wins...pick your win.” — Audra (32:54)
• “It’s the friction that makes a life. I hate to say it, but it’s true.” — Audra (54:04)
• “Success doesn’t interest me. I’m only interested in failure. You learn nothing from success.” — Audra, quoting George Clooney (52:29)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:04–04:48: Guest introduction & background, bridging art history with interiors
• 04:48–14:35: Living with art vs. collecting for investment; art in luxury homes
• 19:34–39:05: Confession #1 – The false affair accusation; handling client relationship drama
• 39:13–55:18: Confession #2 – The stolen painting; ethical dilemmas with heirlooms and provenance
• 55:32–62:19: Audra’s art-first design process & dealing with clients without collections
• 62:54–71:12: The “Artist Eye” collection—concept, inspiration, and the role of women in art
• 71:35–73:26: Quick-fire feel-good moments; where to find Audra online

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Tone & Style

The episode is frank, witty, and unfiltered—balancing industry expertise with raw, sometimes hilarious honesty about the quirks and pitfalls of working with luxury clients. The conversation flows with warmth, camaraderie, and a shared appreciation for both the beauty and the chaos involved in interior design.

For designers and design lovers alike, the episode offers sage advice, a healthy dose of gossip, and a celebration of the artistry (and humanity) at the heart of every great space.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Audra Kavit Deonga, founder of Art Artifact, an art forward design firm known for placing a great art collection at the of every project. Formally trained as a painter and an art historian, her work has been featured in Gallery Veranda, in Frederick magazine, and many more. Hi, Audra. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really grateful.

[B]

Hi, Caroline. I'm so happy to be here.

[A]

It's gonna be great. This is gonna be so fun. We met in Birmingham at the home and garden show, and I think that's what it's called. Antiques and Gardens. Antiques and Gardens. That's what it's called. And I just loved you. You have the warmest presence about you. And when I was thinking about season two, I was like, I wonder if she'd come on the show so than.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I remember that. It was such a fun meeting. And I love that panel that you came to.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

I thought it was just like, very well done and such an interesting conversation about interiors and art collecting.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And all of the people that you were with are so stylish and cool. And so seeing you guys get up there and talk about art and interiors and how it all interacts was really meaningful for me and I loved it. Speaking of all of that, can you tell me how you got here?

[B]

I feel like it's really not a straight line answer.

[A]

It never is.

[B]

I feel it. Well, I studied art and art history, and I have a BFA in painting and in art history. And I worked in the art world for a really long time and had a number of different roles when I was in the art world. And it led to. Eventually I just felt like I wanted to not talk about art in the context of maybe being more institutional in terms of, like, serious and museum worthy and kind of ivory tower, if you will. I really love art. I mean, I love museums. I'm such a. I go to museums all the time because I really do love to go to them, but I really feel like people could connect a lot more. People should have access and could connect to art and also feel comfortable living with it. I think there's such an opportunity in interiors to level up on the art and to really improve. The interior design could be great, but the art really is missing something. And there is a specialty, special area of expertise and knowledge that I think to really find quality works and identify great artists, you do need to know more than just aesthetics about. About art.

[A]

Yes, 100%.

[B]

And so I just kind of eventually saw this opportunity to sort of be in this place that was in between interior design and in between art advising in a traditional sense, or, you know, the art market in a traditional way. And so I'm kind of riding that space in between.

[A]

I think that's brilliant.

[B]

But it took a long time to get there and I feel like it was a lot of returning to how do I, now that I see this opportunity, how do I actually actualize it and get people on board with it and understanding the value and importance of it? And that's a journey that's still ongoing.

[A]

Absolutely. That is brilliant. I mean, speaking of someone who has no background in art, so ill equipped to be consulting for my clients on the pieces that I think they should buy. I mean, I love art. I can tell you what I like and what I think looks beautiful. But I couldn't discern someone who has a higher level of talent than someone else. I could just tell you what I like and what I don't like. And so I think you're completely right. I think there's a big hole in the market of people who know a lot about art, especially from like the collecting side and like the value and how it adds value to your home. And that whole piece, I think, is something that we could all level up on. So I'm excited to learn from you today. And so did you make this transition fairly recently to going from full time art advisor to more prioritizing it into interiors, or is this a longer time coming? Tell me a little bit about that. And did it sort of change with the market and how popular interior design has gotten?

[B]

I think that it's the latter. I feel like it was a long time coming. It was me kind of trying to reconcile when I was younger the fact that I really love interiors and I love environments. The built environment is so important to me. And my background is in art and in helping collecting and art sales. And I was having this moment where it was. I was between. There wasn't room for addressing the interior in most of the roles that I had without. Without it being kind of seen as being dumbed down or almost inappropriate. Sure to talk about the place that an artwork would go. And the reality is that for most people, most people who are buying art are buying it to live with It. I think that there are a few. You know, at a certain level, people have their mind on building a collection that might become, you know, donated to a cult, to a museum someday, or they have enough work that they might rotate that collection where they're thinking in bigger terms. But that is such a fractional number of people who actually buy art and participate in some. On some level in the art market, so to speak, that I just really wanted the chance to. To talk more freely with people about. About the fact that, you know, what that art is juxtaposed with, really make a difference and vice versa. That, like, if you're designing a room and the art is the last thing that's earmarked in your budget and the last thing that you're thinking of, you're missing an opportunity for it to really be far more powerful and impactful in your daily life. Now, that level of thinking isn't for everyone. That level of, like, engagement with your surroundings isn't for everyone. But I think at a certain level of spending, you sort of owe it to yourself to expand on what you're buying, to make sure that you're supporting artists that are high quality, that are contributing to culture, that are making art that's going to have, like, a different. Like, a lasting impact, rather than just something that is esthetically pleasing or maybe looks and feels like real art. And on some level, it is. But if you knew a lot about art history, you might come to find out that it's very derivative. It's not original in the sense of, like, it's too much in the style of someone else and not enough of that person's own, like, soul that they're putting into the artistic output. There's a lot of that that happens, and it does.

[A]

I think, to your point, if there's soul in the art, it brings it to the space. Like, it can impact the space in a very positive way in a way that it may be missing otherwise. And I think that is certainly something that I'm leaving on the table more often than not.

[B]

Yeah, I think that it does. It brings. I think that one of the things that art does that nothing else does is it is such an expression of humanity on this, like, why do we do it? Level. You know, there's really no purpose to art other than to. To express our experience as, you know, the artist expressing their experience. And then for other people who are the viewer, to engage with it and share that experience. On some level, you might not. Like every artwork that you see, it might not give you might not connect with that, the experience that's being conveyed. I think that most people can sense when it feels a little hollow, if they've started to look at. If they've started to look at things, you sort of get a sense of it not vibrating at that level, if you will, emotionally.

[A]

I think that makes sense. Complete sense. I haven't thought about it that way, but yeah. We just had Laura Lester on, who is an art consultant, and she was saying that there are plenty of people in the world who. Their art is just like in a vault in Geneva. It'll never see the light of day. It is just to essentially hoard wealth. And if I were an artist, I would be so devastated to know that something I had put months, years of my life into is just in a vault, in some rich person's vault. I would so prefer to know that it is over a mantle, in a single family home that, like, gets to be experienced every single day and gets to be lived with, and it's a part of other people's lives and it impacts other people in a real way versus just impacting someone's bottom line.

[B]

Agree. I mean, I think that at the end of the day, when we're. Especially when we're talking about contemporary artists, the pursuit of art is not designed to be in a vacuum. Yep. To be fair, there aren't that many artists that I think really qualify for, like, Swiss vault level, you know?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And many of the. Many of them are.

[A]

I do think that's a tiny percentage.

[B]

You know, it's a. It's a small. It's a small sliver of the pie. And. And many of them are maybe not living. Are not, you know, in their, like, mid. Certainly not really in their mid career or early career.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For, you know, for that level of safekeeping. But yes, I think there are warehouses full of art of people that have bought. Bought as investments. I don't advise that way. I think it's. It's a very tricky thing to do. I'm not a financial advisor, and so I'm really. I'm really engaging with clients that are interested in living with it. And I would be open to working with clients who are interested in collecting on that scale. But I would want them to bring an intentionality to the collection. For example, I just went to the opening at the BMFA here in Richmond of Giants, which is the Dean Collection, Alicia Keys and Swizz Beats collection. And that is an example of a philanthropic couple who set out with a mission and a collecting you know, a collecting focus. And they bought art at a scale that is not, is not interior scale, is not living. You know, it's not to live with in the sense of you wouldn't put it in a house, it's monumental, it's giant. But, but their intention with building that collection was that it would, it would go out and meet the people. And so, you know, there's been, I think, four different venues for this particular show. And it's a lot of artists who, when they were being collected, were emerging and are now what you would consider early to mid career. And you're seeing that they're just providing access, that they've built this fabulous collection where because of the thrust of their interest, all those pieces together make something much bigger and more valuable than just one work on its own. But then on top of that, their, their impetus is to share it. So I think that there are ways to collect that are not ways that you're living with it. And I think that there's a real opportunity, if you're, if you're lucky enough to be able to think that big picture, to still have in mind, you know, sharing it with the public, letting art Community. Yeah, community. But also the funny thing is after the community, the value follows. Because what's happening to these works now, they have a record of having been in all of these very significant museums. And these artists careers are bolstered by that. It does a lot for the owner, but also for the artists and also for the institutions. It's a win win all the way around.

[A]

Yeah, it works for everyone.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And why do you think there aren't more people doing that? If it's a win win, win, why is becoming more of a thing? I mean, money obviously, but I mean of in the ultra wealthy.

[B]

I think it's just a matter of perspective. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's a matter of perspective and I think to be transparent, I would imagine too that there is an element of. It's easier for them to get in front of people who make decisions than an average person who just has the same level of, of wealth to devote to collecting, but maybe not the same name recognition. Yeah, their endeavor seems to be very professional. It's not, it's not just a hobby for them. I don't, I don't know names, but I'm sure they have advisors working with them. I'm sure that they have people who are, you know, working on developing the collection in that vein. They clearly have a concept that they want the Collection to have its own life, you know, it's not. It's not a personal. Yeah, it's not a personal project.

[A]

Fascinating. Good for them.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

It's clearly. I mean, we need more. More celebrities who are wanting to do that because that is. And I agree. I have to imagine for them it's validating and you're still getting, like a. A sense of fulfillment, I think, is what I'm trying to say. Y. From knowing you collected that and then sharing it.

[B]

Right. I think that. Yes. I think that the benefits compound when you're. When you are sharing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like when you're living, you know, when you're living with it, with intention.

[A]

Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Then I tried Programa, and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Doubt it, Doubt it, doubt it. What's a vice you partake in?

[B]

Well, I actually would love to hear you answer this question first. Are you answering this question? Do you have a vice for aging?

[A]

I can answer the question, and I have. No, I don't do one for every episode, but it's because most people know my vice. I'm kind of a stoner. I would say that's my vice. It's legal in Chicago. I don't drink. Okay, so weed is my vice personally, but it doesn't have to be that serious. I don't have kids. I realize it's a bit of a different lifestyle. Some people are like, Diet Coke or my nanny. It can be anything. It doesn't have to be actual drugs if you don't want it to be.

[B]

I love that I have no judgments and I was actually struggling with what one to do because I feel like I'm a little bit of a goody two shoes and I don't. I like, I'm like a first born child who was like terrified of breaking the rules. And I grew up Catholic.

[A]

And you know what your vice can be rule following.

[B]

It might be, I mean it might be just like I'm like so afraid of breaking the rules that it's, it's a vice.

[A]

Which hey, is true.

[B]

But I'd really love to be more interesting than that. So I'm like trying to come up with something that's like a good one. Don't worry. Well, here's, here's one that I'm embarrassed of. I am like a serial book buyer. Not a reader, but a book buyer. And I just love books and I have such a weakness for them and I. And sometimes I buy them even though I know. I mean, I'm in a phase of my life where it's really hard to find time to read, where I'm not falling asleep as soon as I open the book. When I was young, I read all the time. And it was around the time that I. That I got an iPhone. I hate to say that my habit of reading kind of diminished. A lot of other things happened in my life at that time with like career and you know, later kids and things like that. But I have, I have kept up the buying of books. I have not kept up the reading of them. And I do feel really guilty about that. So maybe that's my advice. The unread books, of all the things you can buy.

[A]

I will tell you, the rule when I was growing up was like, obviously when we were going to a toy store, a bookstore, whatever, we were not getting anything we wanted. But if we asked our parents, specifically my mom, if we could have a book, the answer was always yes. Like she was not going to tell us no to buying books. And I read a lot still. A lot still. And I mean, granted it's my Kindle, because if I. Because I have plenty of regular books that I have never read and probably won't ever read. For some reason, the digital aspect still keeps my attention. I fear I'm a bit of a screenager. It's just like my brain likes it better, which I wish was not the case. But I do think maybe you're instilling a. Exactly. Maybe you're instilling A lifelong reading streak in your kids without even knowing it. Sometimes I think valuing books and valuing reading is something that's sinking in that you don't even necessarily know know. So who knows? Yeah, Your book buying may be making your kids lifelong readers.

[B]

It could. I mean, I start. Or it's scaring them because it's, like, stacks everywhere. And every time they open a book and they don't treat it nicely, I, like, yell at them. So we'll see, you know, Jury's out on where they end up on reading.

[A]

Okay, report back. Oh, my gosh. I got.

[B]

Shit.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, let's get into some confessions. I'm excited, Caroline. I have a story for you that honestly could have been an episode of a reality show. I still don't know how I made it through the week without needing professional help. So I was working on this renovation for a couple who had bought what they called their weekend escape. From the outside, it sounded dreamy. Cute house, great property, lots of potential. The reality the house needed. And the couple needed therapy, individually and together. The boyfriend was my main point of contact. He was the kind of client who hovered in a way that wasn't exactly inappropriate, but was definitely intense. He had opinions about every single element, including things most clients don't think twice about. For example, I once watched this man spend 15 minutes debating between two almost identical cabinet poles, only to say he needed, quote, time to sit with it spiritually.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I thought he was joking. He was not. When I first read this story, that cracked me up.

[B]

That is good. I mean, you can't make that up. Yeah, you really can't.

[A]

His partner was the complete opposite. Every time I met with her, she acted like I'd shown up to repossess her car instead of helping design her kitchen. She'd show up late, cross her arms through the entire meeting, make little comments under her breath, and then vanish the second she could. She never seemed engaged, grateful, or honestly even awake. It was like she'd mentally checked out before we even started. Everything's chugging along, though, and we're getting close to install. There are a million moving parts, deliveries stacked on deliveries, the contractor asking me 50 questions a day, and I'm prepping to fly in for the big final push. Right in the middle of all of this, the boyfriend sends me a long, rambling email. I had to read it twice because the tone was so strange. He was clearly anxious, and he kept circling around this idea that he didn't. Didn't want his partner to know he had been at a meeting with me and the contractor. He wanted me to act like I handled it alone. He said he was, quote, avoiding conflict and, quote, key, quote, keeping the peace. And I just sat there thinking, why am I suddenly part of your internal family crisis communications team? He kept emphasizing how his partner, quote, might react and how he, quote, didn't want things to escalate. At this point, I'm thinking, this is beyond anything I should be involved in. But we were too far into the project. I had already booked flights, scheduled installers, and coordinated deliveries. There was no backing out cleanly. So I fly in, I land. I haven't even made it to the hotel yet, and my phone starts blowing up with calls from a number I didn't know. When I finally answer, it's the partner, and she is already mid meltdown before I can even say hello. She's angry, hurt, yelling, talking in circles, saying she, quote, knows what's really going on and that she, quote, saw the messages and that she's not naive. At this point, I genuinely thought she had me confused with someone else, because the only messages between me and her partner involved invoices and tile samples. And the worst part, she wasn't upset about the design. She genuinely believed I was having an affair with her boyfriend. I was standing there holding my suitcase, trying to explain I'm literally in town to install her furniture, not steal her man. But she was too far gone to hear any of it. I felt like I was trying to calm down a tornado. The twist came later that day. The contractor, who had seen everything and is fazed by nothing, casually pulls me aside and says something like, if she's acting wild, don't take it personally. There was a whole thing last year with the realtor. Apparently, she had found messages between her boyfriend and the realtor. Not romantic, by the way, but enough to make her suspicious. Since then, every woman who makes eye contact with him gets added to her imaginary suspect list. So I just happened to step into the splash zone at the wrong time. The rest of install week felt like walking through a minefield. Every tiny decision between them turned into an argument. I'd ask where they wanted the kitchen rug, and suddenly they were fighting about who, quote, never listens. I'd ask if they wanted the artwork hung higher or lower, and suddenly it was a debate about tone. There was one point where I had to leave the room because I could physically feel the tension ricocheting off the walls. I just pretended I needed to, quote, check the floor plan and hid in the laundry room. For five minutes to recover. I have never in my life wanted to finish a project faster. When the final walkthrough was done, I practically sprinted to my rental car, tossed my bag inside, and sat there in total silence, just decompressing. I don't think I've ever been so drained by two people who weren't by the time my plane took off, astray. Her family got astray there. By the time my plane took off, I had made myself a promise. Next year, I'm adding a, quote, relationship instability surcharge to my contracts. Because if I'm going to be dragged into a couple's emotional battlefield, I should be compensated accordingly. So here's my question. What are designers supposed to do when the real design challenge isn't the house, but the relationship?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

My God.

[B]

Am I supposed to give her advice?

[A]

You don't actually have to, because I don't know, I fear there's no good advice.

[B]

I'm still processing this one. I'm still decompressing from hearing this. I would say that my advice, and maybe the penance, I suppose, is that the penance is, I think the suggestion that this designer would ever do this again. I think that relationships are everything in this business and in every other one. And you don't deserve that. And if you now you know where that can go. Just walk away like it's not worth it. This project is not your dream project, and it doesn't need to be your dream project to still not have respect involved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you just need to know your boundaries. And it's not. It's not worth it to finish that kind of project. And I say that as the goody two shoes that hates to quit anything. You have to walk away. Sometimes you have to. And you need to need to trust your gut on the warning signs. I have said no to a lot of projects because I had sensed that it just would be the worst project ever. And did I need the work? Absolutely. I needed the work. But it just, you know, you. You learn hard the hard way one time, and hopefully you're smart enough to learn the lesson. That's what I would say.

[A]

Absolutely. Also, often these products are the ones that I end up spending my own money to finish it because I'm like, I just gotta get outta here. I gotta be dumb. Like, you end up lose money. They end up fighting your bills. Like you lose money on that job no matter what. And two things. One, we added a no assholes clause to our contract, which basically gives me carte blanche, that if people are acting out of pocket. I can just be like, bye. Like, it really does make me feel better. And I would've used that in this moment. I would have been like, clearly this is not working. Here's XYZ reasons that we cannot continue to move forward. I'm gonna have to, you know, point to this clause in our contract and say, good luck. I mean, I feel like someone like this probably would have caused a problem if you tried to do that. But it doesn't really matter. It's still worth attempting to extricate.

[B]

I think that. Yeah, I think that what I would say my contract is structured in a way that really underscores the client designer relationship. And it's conventional in the term, in the sense of like the stuff that's there is pretty boilerplate. But the way it's structured really starts out with, this is the client what the client promises to do, and this is what the designer promises to do. And it really, I think, underscores that this is a relationship. Yep. And definitely there's a clause in there, as most contracts have, that say that for any reason, either party can decide to end the contract. Yep. You know, you just have to wrap it up. I mean, you can't leave them hanging and not deliver something they've paid you for, for example.

[A]

Right, right, right. If you have their money and they paid for something, you can refund their money. Yeah, that. And I've had to do that before.

[B]

Right. Like whatever part is the. Not the non refundable retainer part, you return it to them. And honestly, I guess I would say that in my experience, it doesn't always pay to be completely transparent about your reasons.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

You don't need to burn the bridge on the way out. You just need to get out.

[A]

No, absolutely. I think there's sometimes a certain subsect of people who won't take no for an answer unless you make it pretty clear why you are having to step away. But I don't think that's everyone. I think generally most people are fin to be like, okay, well clearly this is not working. I a couple of times had to be like, look, here's five examples of the ways that you treated my team. That's why we're.

[B]

If they push back.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Like if we get pushback. But it's not the initial discussion.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The initial discussion is we've had to make a different decision. Thank you so much, blah, blah, blah. And then yes, if they fight, then you know that you have like the things to back up Your decision, I think also something that I've had to learn in my career is if you are supposed to be working with two people in a couple and they don't seem to be on the same page in the beginning, they are not going to miraculously get on the same page halfway through. Even if you're a great manager and you think, like, I've done this before, I know how to get people on the same page. Almost always you're walking into something that has so much history, you have no way of managing that. Like, even if they're able to come to an agreement, they're going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing because of something else you're not involved in. And so essentially climbing that mountain when it's, I mean, there's an avalanche coming, it just feels like you're spinning your wheels, essentially. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn. Unless the client is telling me, which we have had this recently and I kind of love it. I've had lots of women tell me, like, I'm your client, not my husband. You don't ever even need to meet him. He has no involvement. Talk to me, deal with me. Great. No problem. Like, if there is one designated decision maker and the other person's not involved, who cares? You don't need both people. It's if both people seem to have opinions and want to be involved and can't get on the same page. Like, I'm not a couples therapist, there's nothing I feel that I could do to get them there and make the project successful.

[B]

Yeah, I think that that's a great insight too. I think working with just one person, if you can, is obviously better because you're going to be fielding less conflict if you can. I would get the other, the spouse to sign off on that. That, like, decisions made by one client count for both, you know, are represented by both. And maybe also verbally or in writing, in emails or whatever, you know, just to cover your bases. Ask them who, you know, who cares about this more? Like, who's more invested in it? And, you know, who's the like, who's the person who is the like, number one decision maker and who's number two? Because you don't, you don't have two bosses. Like, you can't, you know, it doesn't. No, it's not to your point. Point. It's a recipe for disaster to have to be pitted against two people who are vying for like, you know, equal power in a decision making situation. Maybe structuring Out a hierarchy or, like, a deferral, you know, like, who do you defer? Who defers? You know, like, who cares more? Yeah. In my experience, working with couples, it's always just, like, I always coach them to let each other have wins that, like, you're not. You know, we're a couple. You're gonna have different tastes, you're gonna have different opinions. Who cares more about this one? Like, is this. Is this the. Is this your win, or do you want to save it? Do you want to say, you know, like, do you care about the knob? Yeah, let's, like, blow up the big picture here. Do you care about the almost identical knob, or do you care about your, you know, your gorgeous bathtub or whatever? Like, pick your whim.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, and I will try to. If I can see that the client's disagreeing, I will try to find pockets where they can each win. So, like, for example, if they're arguing between a wallpaper and the wife, I can tell feels really strongly, I'll be like, okay, what if this is what we do here? But remember that other area that we were going back and forth on that you both disagreed on? Why don't we let the husband have his way on that one? And then you both have your way, and we're able to move. Like, sometimes they can't get there, but if we can see that opening, and then they'll be like, oh, yeah, that sounds good. And then they're able to continue. That has been super helpful for me. It's almost like children. You're like, okay, if you are gonna split the cookie, one cuts, one decides. Like, you have to, like, even the playing field for them. And then I feel like that does. That can help if they love each other and care about each other.

[B]

Right. There has to be inherent trust.

[A]

Exactly. If they've lost that trust, there's quite literally nothing you can do about it. Nothing you can do to fix it, unfortunately. And I think that's how this woman ended up in this position.

[B]

Yeah. The right decision is to not engage with somebody who puts you in that position. Again, like, if you sense that the couple doesn't trust each other, that's your sign. Like, that's your sign that this is gonna be the worst job you've ever taken. Yeah. Not that they just disagree on things, but that they don't trust each other.

[A]

I completely agree. What was so interesting? Someone said to me, and I. Whoever said it was on the podcast, please forgive me. They said they give client request forms. They make the Husband and wife individually fill it out.

[B]

Oh, I like that. Like an assessment, sort of.

[A]

So they can tell what they're gonna agree on and what they're gonna disagree on. And they can tell, like, if it's gonna be big disagreements versus little disag. Sometimes the, like, husband or wife will say, I'm the decision maker. I'm gonna fill it out on behalf of us. But then that is sort of, in writing, setting the tone of, like, I'm the decision maker. I'm making, you know, and so that, to me, maybe we should start doing that of, like, can you each fill it out?

[B]

Because it could help when you know that the other person isn't co writing your answers. You can say what you actually think. And I think that it would. Yes, it. It is definitely helpful to skip through the red tape and just get to the meat of, like, what does each person care about? Yes. To your point, again, it could be very different things. And often it ends up being is what it looks like versus what it costs.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And one person cares about what it costs, and one person cares about what it looks like. And I think designers have a design in general as kind of a bad rap of being, like, the most expensive thing possible.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Is what. What we're selecting for you And I. I definitely don't do that in my work.

[A]

I don't either.

[B]

And I think that they don't realize how many corners or how many, like, cost benefits are weighed behind the scenes in terms of, like, what something costs versus what the quality is. And a lot of people just need. Need kind of a little bit more education to understand.

[A]

I will say to clients, let's not splurge on this. This doesn't feel like it makes sense. Let's splurge on this instead. I have a lot of that education around. Like, do we need a $15,000 white sofa, or should we spend that money on, like, the natural stone countertops that are going throughout our house? And I think there's room for both. But that education and learning how to educate people on what they should prioritize.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What your priority priorities, I feel like, is crucial. Let's close it out by giving some penance to the client. I think at minimum, they need some therapy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Some maybe, like, six months go to the desert and learn how to be together, because, my God. Or maybe a divorce. It's one or the other.

[B]

Yeah. I just, in that story was sensing a lot of mistrust between. Between them. And I, you know, like, I have to imagine there's Something we don't know now that's there. Right?

[A]

That like definitely, I mean, he definitely cheated or something happened.

[B]

Yeah, something happened. And, and so I think that the soul searching is like, is this relationship worth continuing in? You know, if this is its current form and if it's not like getting better, which it doesn't sound like in this scenario it was, it was improving. No, Yeah, I think definitely moving on or moving through.

[A]

Call an attorney also because, you know, I think it's a tale as old as time. Girl meets boy, they're happy together, boy cheats on her, she's not crazy. Boy cheats on her, she becomes crazy because boy cheats on her and now she's the crazy one to everyone else, even though his actions are what drove her to that. And so I could totally see that being the case here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The fault is, is not hers.

[A]

Right. Like the way she's handling is, is not correct. But if you're gaslighted enough to, to, you know, at a long enough period of time, you eventually realize that you have turned a little bit crazy because of how you're reacting to your situation.

[B]

Yeah, I think it, it sounds like she's so deep in it, she can't see, she can't see what's happening and she can't see how it's changing her, you know, like it's impossible to know if she's actually a nice person or not. There are plenty of people that get cheated on that aren't nice people. So I can't really like, you know, parse all of that.

[A]

I guess that's true.

[B]

I think everybody, everybody, hopefully has earned the right to be in a respecting relationship where people are committed to each other, you know, but that's a two way street, so. Sounds like, like it reading into it, it seems like he's done something to earn her mistrust and it seems like she has a anger management problem. So.

[A]

Two different major problems that need to be addressed. Yes, I think you're right about that. And good luck to them. Lucky that I'm not in that relationship is what I'll say.

[B]

Repent. Please, please, please.

[A]

Okay, let's get into confession number two. I'm a residential designer based in Charleston, and last year I took on a big project for a couple renovating their historic home. The formal living room was a big focus and they were absolutely set on designing the entire space around a painting the wife's parents had passed down to them. The piece was stunning. Large scale, saturated colors, and this incredible sense of movement. It felt like the kind of painting that should anchor a room. So that's exactly what we did. I pulled the palette from it, commissioned custom upholstery to echo the tones, even designed the millwork lighting to showcase it. When we finished, it was one of those rare moments where everything aligned. The clients were over the moon. I loved it, my photographer loved it, and a design publication picked it up for a full feature spread. It felt like a career win. Then, about two weeks after the magazine came out, I got an email with a subject line that said urgent regarding the project's name in parentheses painting. The message was from a woman I'd never heard of. She introduced herself as the granddaughter of the artist, the woman who originally painted the piece. And she said very politely but very directly, we've been looking for this painting for years. I thought maybe she was mistaken. But then she attached the old photograph of her grandmother standing in front of the exact painting. Same brushwork, same dimensions, everything. The email explained that her grandmother and grandfather had gone through a nasty divorce decades ago. When her grandmother came back to collect her belongings, the painting was missing. The family searched for it for years, but it had essentially vanished. They assumed it was stolen or taken out of spite. Either way, it had never surfaced again until it appeared in this publication. I was sweating reading this email. I reached out to my clients to see what they knew, and all they said was that the wife's parents gave it to them when they moved into their first house. They had no idea where her parents got it or how long they'd had it. Meanwhile, the granddaughter kept emailing me asking if I could put her in contact with whoever currently had the piece because it belonged to her grandmother. She wasn't threatening or aggressive, more heartbroken than anything, but it was clear she fully believed the painting had been taken years ago. I was stuck between not wanting to accuse the client's family of theft, not wanting to ignore this woman's claims, and absolutely not wanting to be the designer who unknowingly styled a room around stolen art and blasted it across the country. And that's pretty much exactly what happened. It turned into this extended back and forth between attorneys, the magazine, my clients, and the granddaughter's family. I still don't know how the painting left its original home or who actually took it. Last year, I heard the wife's parents quietly returned it to the artist's family through a lawyer. I now make sure to ask more questions when dealing with high value heirlooms.

[B]

That's a. That's an interesting twist to that story. I wasn't expecting that. I have a lot of thoughts because of like my art background.

[A]

Yes. And I want all your thoughts. That's why I saved this story for you, because I knew you would. That's a juicy one.

[B]

I mean, first of all, I was like, oh, wow, what a dream project. So I was like right there salvating, long story, inside this designer. And then I, you know, I think that the reality is, is that a lot of artwork does. There's a lot of art out there that has been stolen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe we don't see, we don't see that as much at like a lower price point level. But, but art fakes, art forgeries, art thefts, I mean, are like pretty, pretty well known. I mean, certainly Hollywood, you know.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, we just had the Louvre heist, which I realized was Jules, but like.

[B]

Well, but it is art. Exactly. I mean like the art, the craftsmanship is such, of such a caliber that it's, you know, never going to be able to be recreated.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And it is a tricky thing because, you know, you don't keep records on a lot of things and people do give away something like art is a very emotional piece of property and if someone loved it and you want to spike them. Yeah. You would potentially target that item. I don't think that it's necessary probably for your average interior designer or even like high end, very high end interior designer to ask or probe your clients how they got their artwork. I think that you have to operate on a position of trust. Like if you're concerned that maybe it's, it's like black market or like ill gotten, that should tell you all you need to know about working with them 1000%. That's the end of the conversation before it starts.

[A]

The vibe might be off in general.

[B]

If that's the case, I think you're, you're dealing with a much bigger, you know, juicier problem. And you're not, you're probably not going to get paid or, you know, who knows what's going to happen in that.

[A]

Situation or you will under the table or like I just. Yeah, there's a lot.

[B]

There's a lot. There's a lot of salacious potential things happening in that storyline. But I think that what immediately jumped to my mind is if this woman could prove that the artwork had been in their possession and somehow also, you know, which it sounds like because of the outcome was effective in laying evidence to the claim. And then this other family has an attachment to it. The obvious answer to me Is like the family returns it, but they make a copy, and then they get to continue to, like, live with the facility. Like a facsimile of the work. Yep. That, like, your average person is never going to know the difference. Yep. And if anyone does or if you want to talk about it, you can talk about how you used to have the original, and you can tell the story, and then both sides win. And that would be. That would have been, like, the solution I might have suggested.

[A]

I mean, that's kind of the only solution there is. If you've designed an entire room around it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Presumably the artist has passed because it's her grandmother. But I would assume that there has got to be an artist who could, if not exactly copy, do a homage to the original piece. So that way it's like, has all the colors, has everything that they originally wanted, the movement, but not like a exact copy. I think that is special and makes it sort of interesting. But I also know that I would have to assume if this piece had been given to this couple from their parents, it was a important piece to their family, too.

[B]

It has another life and another story.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So the domino effect is far, for sure. I mean, it's. To your point. Yeah. There's lots of stolen pieces. And, you know, I'm honestly, it sounds like this client's parents were good people. Cause there's lots of people who would say, you have no proof. This wasn't given to my. My grandmother or my grandfather. You have no proof that we didn't. X, Y, Z. So, like, there's all these. It's kind. It gets complicated, I think, in that especially if this. The family who had it, the client, if they had had it, you know, for years and decades at this point, how do you know how it changed hands? And to be clear, would I have given the painting back? Of course. But I think there's a sect of people who would be like, sorry, no, we acquired it. We can't really tell you how, but we acquired this and it's ours. So I'm glad that the piece was returned back to the family. It meant so much to.

[B]

To. Well, and I think, to your point, too, it's important to add that people may be buying art or, you know, things of value that they don't realize are not, you know, legitimately available on a marketplace. And so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think, do you trust your dealer or, you know, did he sell it at auction? You know, a lot of fakes and a lot of things with dubious provenance are sold at auction. Because the seller can remain anonymous. And one of the jobs of a good auction house is to vet the pieces. That was going to be my question signers. And as you go down the food chain to smaller auction houses that just don't have the same level of expertise or access to resources, the resources to really do a good job. And even at the top places, I mean, they've all been embroiled in stories of all kinds of different types of art crime. So, you know, it's a thing for sure. But the people who acquired it could have definitely bought it in good faith and not been involved in anything that they perceived as. As, you know, potentially wrong. But the piece itself could have been, you know, compromised before they had it. I mean, it's. You know, in today's world, it would be the angry husband selling it on Facebook Marketplace or something. You know, so you do have to wonder, like, oh, what am I buying when I buy something really great on Facebook Marketplace? Like.

[A]

Like, yeah, we're lucky to live in a world with so much beauty, even. There's a lot that's negative, but we are lucky to live in this world with so many artists.

[B]

And of course, there's things that are negative. I. You know, it. I. This is something I try to tell my kids is like, you wouldn't know what was beauty if you didn't know what wasn't. Yeah. You know, you wouldn't. You wouldn't know what was good if everything was good all the time. Like, how would you ever know that it was good? It would just feel average, you know.

[A]

And boring and empty, even.

[B]

Yeah. You would have ennui about things that are good. And you do see that happen. I think people sometimes do have, you know, cocooned lives, and they, you know, sort of like living someplace where there's only one season. It's like, you have no idea the value of spring. Yes. In Chicago, that's not your problem. But.

[A]

But I mean, to your point, the first day after winter that it gets to, like, 50 in the entire city. I have chills right now thinking about it. It will be my ninth. Ninth spring in Chicago. And people. The entire city wakes up and everyone's outside, and there are people in shorts and it's still cold, and, like, we're all deranged. Like, if it was where I'm from, it would be the coldest day of the year. But this collective joy that happens when we see the sun for the first time after, like, three months, it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, God. It's a. It's the it, like, bursts out of me, that feeling. Whereas to your point, you live in la, there's nothing to. To even. There's nothing to appreciate because you've had it. And there's nothing to. Yeah. To make you think, like, wow, I'm so glad this is the way that it is. Which is, I mean, a big reason that I live in Chicago. I love the seasons visually, but also, wow, the amount of gratitude that it gives you year in and year out, like, it's a requirement to have gratitude to get through the hard part. Start, and then you, wow.

[B]

It's just gives you a lot of perspective. And I think it builds variety, builds resilience, you know, I mean, like, not everything can be good. Like, my kids, they're little. They're four and almost seven, and they're in this space where they, like, they can't watch movies because something bad might happen. Or, like, you know, we have to be so thoughtful about what movies they can watch because they just, like. It's so. They get so distressed about, like, any friction and, you know, and it's just like. But of course, there has to be something. Like, it's not a story if nothing happens. And also, it's not a life if nothing happens. You know, you gotta go out there.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And put yourself out there and take the risk. And, like, that means that, yeah, it's not gonna be. It's not gonna be a cup of tea every day.

[A]

And I mean, if I think of, like, if someone asked me, what are some of the most formative things that happened in your life? It would be a mix of positive and negative. It would not just be like, here's all the great things that happened to me in my life. It would be, here's some things, here's some good things, and here's how I made both of them work. Like, that's the value, I think.

[B]

And what did you learn? What are the most important things you've learned in life? Yeah, usually those are negative. Those are negative events that you turned around. No, they're things they're not. Because. Because you process them and you grow. Growth is painful. And I think, like, you know, I was. I was having coffee with this woman that I find very inspiring recently, and I was trying to, like, discuss this very thing. We were having a similar conversation, and I was like, yeah, I. You're going to be. I'm so embarrassed to share this, but I recently saw an interview with George Clooney, and he was like, success doesn't interest me. I'm only interested in failure. And I was like, it's so meaningful, it's so powerful. He's like, you learn nothing from success. I don't want to know someone who has only known success.

[A]

The only non success 1000% is the.

[B]

One who's failed because they know 1000%. And I think we all need to remind ourselves of that because like what we perceive as success is actually a ton of failure. A ton of failure.

[A]

The most failure, I mean, failure until they got it right, guaranteed failure. And I think that's why I'm doing this podcast, because there's so much that's like, here's how I'm great, here's how I got here, here's how I succeeded. And it's like, there's the messy middle is the piece that I find so interesting.

[B]

The whole thing is mess. I mean, I think that, yeah, I, I turned 40 last year. I'm about to be 41. And I'm just like, the realization I came to is like, wow, you kind of never get there. Like, but then you could be really upset about that. You could be really upset about that. But then also if you ever got there and if you got there at like 40 or whatever number you pick, what next? Like what, you're going to spend the rest of your life?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Not growing, not learning anything new, just like co signing, never having another experience. That sounds awful. That sounds like prison.

[A]

It sounds awful. Do you want to, like, you may as well die at 40. You've done it all fine. Don't worry about it.

[B]

Right. If you've, if you've arrived, what next?

[A]

So what's the point exactly?

[B]

You know, it's the friction that, that makes a life. I hate to say it, but it's true.

[A]

No, I think you're completely right about that.

[B]

I. If that saves someone from a midlife crisis out there, I hope it does. But you know, it's like, why, why crisis about this? Of course you're not arrived at yet. Like, you know, you. There's no, there's no arrival.

[A]

Yeah. Where are we trying to arrive to? Is the other question. Like, where is the, the end goal? I mean, I say that I'm leaving things for myself to get good at. So like I don't cook. That's going to be for third post 35 me. Like I'm giving her something to work on.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. You can't have it all at once. At once.

[A]

Better like to be like, I'm actively choosing to wait until this part of my. And if it came earlier And I decided I was interested in it. Would I hold myself back? Of course not. But, like, it makes me feel less pressure on needing to be good at everything immediately. If I'm like, well, why would I? I don't need to worry about cooking right now. Let's worry about cooking post 35. I don't need to worry about X. Let's worry about it then. Like, it gives me some room to breathe and to be bad at things right now. Cause I'll eventually get good at it.

[B]

If you put your mind to it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, eventually. But it's not something that I. I don't have to be good at every single thing right this second. Second. Second.

[B]

Second.

[A]

Okay, I have some questions for you before I let you go. How do you put your art first approach into practice with your clients, and how does that affect your design process? What if they don't have an existing art collection?

[B]

If they don't have an existing art collection, I start talking about it immediately. And I always propose art, or I try to get to know them and take them with me to see gallery shows or art fairs or even museums and just see what. What they're attracted to. Yep. I'm not generally starting from scratch at this phase in my career, but I think I'm really open to people who haven't thought about it a lot. Lot. Okay. But at the same time, I feel like people who hire me tend to really appreciate things that have meaning and are attracted to figuring that out for themselves, if they haven't already.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So I'm always promoting it first. I'm always telling them that, like, we need to set aside a substantial part of the budget for a potential artwork. And. And if we find something for less, that's great. But it's more about just earmarking the intention and not letting all of the other stuff squeeze it out of the picture, because I think that's what often happens. And then you end up with one of two things. You end up with a house that has nothing on the walls or has stuff that just really shouldn't have been there at all.

[A]

Subpar.

[B]

Yep, subpar. Or the third option is, you know, you have art that matches, you know, matches the interior but doesn't add anything. And I think that's. That's where the reverse engineering of it kind of came from. You know, I. To your. To the second confession, designing a room about a piece around a piece of art is an awesome idea. Not everybody does it that way. Way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, most people don't do it that way. I think it's a great opportunity when you can. But at the same time, you. You know, you want that artwork to be standalone. You don't. You want it to not need a room. Does that make sense?

[A]

You know, could be on a white wall in a gallery and stand on its own.

[B]

It could be right. You want that work to have something to possess presence. And when you're looking for an artwork that matches the trim or matches. Matches the curtains or matches the sofa or coordinates with the rug or whatever, when you're looking for artwork with those parameters and that perspective, you're just not going to get something that deserve. That is going to stand on its own and have the presence to do that.

[A]

Well, it's thinking of it like you're thinking of a pillow. Those are two completely different. It's okay to leave a pillow to the end to add it, because it's adding something to the room that you didn't previously think about, Whatever. But it can't be that way with art, especially. Especially if there's a focal. Like, art's a focal point in that space.

[B]

Yes. And I think the other thing that a lot of clients need to know is just that the art actually doesn't have to match. And maybe more designers should know that too. Like, I think that there's this approach.

[A]

In fact, maybe it shouldn't match.

[B]

It often looks best when it doesn't. It's like complementary colors. Right. Like, the relationship of the surroundings to the thing makes. Makes it maybe bigger than it was before. It draws your attention to it more. If you have a great work of art, it's worthy of drawing that attention. And yeah, juxtaposition, I think, is something I love to play with. I could do that all day.

[A]

I do too. A super modern piece and, like, a old Tudor that we're gonna go more traditional with. Like, one of my favorite things I love just brings, like, new life to the piece of art and new life to the home.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like in being in to each other, I think.

[B]

Yeah. It makes you notice different things about it, about both the environment and the artwork. I really love. I love a good juxtaposition.

[A]

Me too. Okay. You talk a lot about designing around the pieces that truly matter to people. How do you help clients figure out what those pieces are?

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think it's. It comes back to relationships. It comes back to, like, really getting inside, taking their perspective. I don't want to say getting inside their head because it's. There is an element of it that is psychology. Yeah, but loosely applied. It's really just like perspective taking and it's. I almost want to say it's a little bit like personal shopping. Not having been a personal shopper, I think that that's, you know, I think a lot of designers want a lot of control, and I respect that because their approach is about creating a specific environment for their clients, and often they're hired for their specific style, and so they're being asked to do their style. But I think there's a lot of. There's an important thing to remember that when you're buying art as opposed to decoration, it really should connect. It really should connect with the person who lives there. And not everything in the house that's on the walls needs to connect, but some things do.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I really love it when a home has decoration and art. You know, things that are there that are, like, complementary to the room and bring it all together. But then also these pieces that are like the personal portrait pieces, like the pieces that tell their stories, story, and. And, you know, sometimes that's work that we find at a major art fair, but sometimes it's literally the. Their child's drawing, you know, and it's something that had sentimental value to them and. And it has its own present beautiful presence because of that. So figuring out what. What matters to them, what are their things that they love and. And what their memories are, what their memories are in interacting with art. If they aren't, like, avid, you know, avidly engaging with it, what are formative memories that they have? Or, you know, maybe it's a different type of collection entirely. You know, my expertise is specific to art, but I love a collector. I'm not very disciplined myself, so I can kind of, you know, I can kind of apply my lens to whatever. Whatever thing people would like me to.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I try to be flexible. I try to be more flexible about the end result. And I think the projects. I don't know if they really look like me. They look like the person when it's done right.

[A]

I mean, there's an undertone of your sensibility, for sure. But I feel like you're right. You're creating homes for the people that you're creating the homes for, which makes sense. I mean, it's. And for it to look like they live there, not you, and they just moved in. Like, I mean, I think that's valuable. That's what often clients really want. Okay, last question, and this one's kind of, for me, your artist eye collection. We have to talk about it. I'm such a huge fan for people who don't know. Can you tell me a bit more about it? How it came to be? Where's the inspiration from?

[B]

Yeah, well, first, thank you so much. It's a funny project because really has nothing to do with my professional life except for the fact that I do, you know, share information about it. And the pieces are for sale through my website. Sure. A couple of the pieces actually are currently on exhibition at a gallery in New York called Salon 21.

[A]

Amazing. Congratulations.

[B]

Yeah, thank you. It opened earlier this month and is up through December 17th. So two pieces are in that artist show. And I guess I have to just, like, come to terms with the fact that they're my artwork. I came up with the concept. I've always been interested in jewelry and obviously, art history. And there's this wonderful collection of art of Lovers Eyes in the VA Museum in London. And I learned about them when I was there and kind of became obsessed with them many, many years ago ago. And then at some point, I found this woman who was painting eyes in antique jewelry pieces based in the uk. And I was obsessed with the pieces, but they also didn't really look like real eyes. They looked idealized. They looked like. It was unclear to me that they were a human subject or if they were like an in, you know, an imagined eye. But her work was very good, and I reached out to her and asked if she would entertain doing a portrait. I. And she said yes. And so I had her do a portrait of my husband. And.

[A]

Which is so sweet. I love that.

[B]

So sweet. And honestly, it took my breath away when it arrived. It was so creepy to see. To see his eye, like, you know, in this little beautiful Georgian piece of jewelry looking at me. And I didn't even realize that I'd never told him I did this. I just, like, one day, like, I just one day, like, taking your eye painted. Yeah. One day I just was like, here, hold still. I want to take a picture of your eye. And I did. And then I sent it off to this artist, and her name's Irene Owens, and. And she made this piece for me. And I never told him what it. Why I took the picture or what it was. And then a friend came to stay from Billy. After the Artist I thing had. After the Artist I collection had launched, she came to visit and I was telling her the story. And then he was like, wait, what?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Yeah, what do you mean? You have my eye in a box. Like, this is a ridiculous moment.

[A]

Don't worry about it, honey. It's fine.

[B]

So that. But. So I had that done and then six months later, this artist named Francois Gillot passed away. This was a couple years ago now, now. And she was an artist who really had a career as an artist, but the thing she was known for was being Picasso's muse. And I was really upset by what I read in her. You know, the obituaries that had been prepared for her were all just like, Picasso's muse, you know, passes away. And all it was, was about. Not about her and her life. She was like, she lived to be so old. Old. She had a really long life. Her life with Picasso was like a famous but short part of that lip, I'm sure.

[A]

Of her life.

[B]

Yes. And. And the whole thing, it was so blatant that a lot of. There was a lot of actual pushback. Like, people were like, I can't believe you, this is her obituary. Like there was, you know, and then a lot of newspapers went back and. And wrote new obitaries for her. And I just like, should as they should. And it just was such a moment for me where I was like, oh, you know, why. Why are women the object of art but not the subject? And it's so like, it's. It goes. Coincides with my. Not like my, you know, art history knowledge of just like how few women are taught in art history as artists. And if they are artists, they're women artists. And if it just you know, kind of snowballs all these qualifiers and all of these, like, news, first wife first, artist second, third, fourth, mother first. You know, there. There's just all of these. There's a lot of baggage with it. And I wanted to engage people with the idea of, you know, woman as object, but also woman as subject. And I was in lovers eyes.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Lover's eyes are these, you know, these Georgian. This like kind of 18th century thing, that 18th, like early 19th century thing before photography, where you would have your lover's eye painted without their body so that no one would know who it was. So there's this essentialness of it being unknown and anonymous. And I just thought it fit so well with this concept of like women being unknown and anonymous, but like still seeing, seeing, still observing, still gazing. And then there's also this incredible intensity of the concept of women looking back and observing. And that somehow when women look back, when women gaze, it's an undesirable thing for them to do. It's not demure, it's aggressive. And I really want Women to be seen as looking and engaging, but also that look, that understanding, that engaging, that gaze as something beautiful. And so bringing all those things together. I came up with the concept and Irene collaborated with me on them. And I did a bunch of research and went into archives and found photographs of artists eyes. Even reached out to some foundations to confirm the eye color. Like it was a labor of love. It was a huge. It was a. It was an art historical project and you know, decided on which portraits painted portraits or what photographs or what have you would be like the eye, you know, that would be painted. And worked very closely on realizing, you know, the finished pieces. It was really a fun project. And I think I'm going to do another one.

[A]

Breathtaking. Breathtaking. I'm obsessed. And the. The melding and of the jewelry and actually I didn't know at Lover's Ey were the pens, original pens, until I. Until I saw your artist eye collection. And then I was like, wait, this is so cool. So then I did a little bit of my own research and I was like, oh my God, she pulled it from. Like it was. I got to go down that rabbit hole and learn about a type of art that I wouldn't have learned about if you hadn't based it around that. So I appreciate. And now I actually own a Lover's Eye pin. I bought one on Etsy because I was just so taken with it. I just thought it was so. I don't know. I don't know. I have a couple actually. And I love that.

[B]

I love hearing that because I. What I really, you know, I think in. When I think about what art do I make or what am I interested in? I'm really interested in ideas and I'm really interested in conceptual art. But I don't think that conceptual art has to be things that people can't understand. And I really like, just love peeling back the layers of understanding and getting people excited about learning something that they didn't know before. So that means so much.

[A]

I mean, it worked with. And I still. Every time you post about them. Also, I was just telling Claire earlier you were so sweet to send me your little book that when Artist Eye came out, you mailed it to me, which was beyond sweet. Audra mailed me. Literally. I mean, it's like, maybe how big would you say it is? Like an inch by an inch? Like it's.

[B]

I think it's an inch and a half or something. It's a miniature book that I did.

[A]

For like, cutest little book I've Ever seen in my. My life.

[B]

And you mailed it to me.

[A]

You were sweet enough to mail it to me, which was beyond, above and beyond truly. And I'm very grateful. Okay. Well, this has been so fun. I loved it before I let you go because I know you're a very busy woman. Our tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. What's something that made you feel recently?

[B]

Actually, I recently was, like, playing in the leaves with my kids. Kids. And it was just so fun. We had the best time. We went. We don't. We live in a row house in Richmond. And so we don't have a yard, but there's this big stretch of. There's an avenue that has lots of maple trees on it and like a center kind of like.

[A]

Oh, the best leaves part.

[B]

Yeah. And so it's just like virgin leaves. Like, nobody walks on them. Nobody. You know, it's in this median, basically, but it's a big boulevard. And we went there and just, like, made the biggest leaf pile you can imagine and just, like, had the best time last weekend.

[A]

That's so fun. And what a core memory for your kids. They're going to remember that forever. That's so fun.

[B]

It was a blast. I highly recommend adults should jump in some leaves.

[A]

Yeah, we'll add that to the list. Okay. Actually, last question. Where can we find. Find you?

[B]

Well, my website is artartifact.com and Artifact is spelled with an E, which is like, technically the English spelling. And my Instagram handle is also art artifact. If you type it in, it'll come up. It has like, an underscore in between the two words. Yeah, you're welcome to email me. There's. My contact information is on my website. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I try to be pretty accessible. Possible. And it's usually me on Instagram actually handling it. So reach out. Yeah, I'd love to hear what you think.

[A]

And everybody go follow Audra. Her work is beautiful. Truly, your work is beautiful. And I can't wait to keep following.

[B]

Same. Same.

[A]

Thank you for coming to do this and taking the time. I'm so grateful. It was so fun. Okay, well, Audra, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it. And until next week, peace be with you.

[B]

Bye. Bye.