I Confess... I Was The Other Woman

Summary

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Confessions of an Interior Designer

Episode: I Confess… I Was The Other Woman

Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Jenny Brown, Jenny Brown Designs
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the sometimes hilarious, often shocking, and always relatable realities behind the luxury interior design world. Host Caroline Turner is joined by the affable and candid Jenny Brown of Jenny Brown Designs. Together, they swap design industry stories, reflect on mistakes, and react to juicy listener confessions—including one about becoming "the other woman" without realizing it. The episode explores setting boundaries, navigating professionalism in murky situations, lessons from career mistakes, and the joys and pitfalls of working intimately with clients.

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Guest Introduction & Warm-Up (00:04–06:50)

• Jenny’s Path to Design:

  • Grew up on Chicago's North Shore, fascinated by luxury homes she visited as a babysitter.
  • Early internships at Sotheby’s and an art gallery—developed appreciation for beautiful things, but also saw decorators sometimes dismissed as superficial.
  • Realization she should be a decorator hit while picking out marble coasters for her mom.
  • “I just remember thinking, Oh, I should be a decorator. That was easy.” — Jenny (04:44)

• Old School Design Love:

  • Childhood and college experiences rearranging dorm rooms—always drawing floor plans.
  • “We didn’t get new stuff, we just moved our stuff around.” — Caroline (05:07)
  • “I’m chasing that high constantly.” (on getting vintage/thrift bargains) — Jenny (06:43)

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The Side-Quest Life & Career Reflections (06:51–18:00)

• Love of the Hunt:

  • Both hosts bond over the thrill of finding unique items, comparing it to shopping highs and admitting to the compulsion to hunt for deals.
  • "I have this thing where you can find really high-end designer shoes ... for 40 bucks." — Jenny (07:04)

• Career Path Highlights:

  • Jenny’s move to San Francisco inspired by reading the firm listings in Architectural Digest.
  • Her first day at a major firm, The Wiseman Group, fell on September 10, 2001—a career and world-shifting moment.
  • “I was ordering a cappuccino pony hide wing chair. I just remember being … I have arrived.” — Jenny (13:54)

• Experience of Layoffs and Growth:

  • Jenny sees layoffs and major setbacks as crucial growth experiences, both personally and professionally.
  • “Getting laid off and getting fired is kind of key in a career, I think.” — Caroline (14:33)

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Advice, Guilty Pleasures & Work/Life Balance (18:00–25:40)

• Side Quests as Self-Care:

  • Both discuss the thrill of fitting in extra tasks/adventures (the “side quest”) in a busy day.
  • “Advice is kind of like a guilty pleasure or a cheap thrill, you know?” — Jenny (19:18)

• Stopping Drinking:

  • Both stopped drinking, finding more energy and time for meaningful activities.
  • “I stopped drinking four years ago, which has been…the best.” — Jenny (20:13)

• Organizational Hacks:

  • Keeping notepads by each bed to jot late-night ideas, helping manage the chaos of side projects (“side quests”).
  • “Sometimes I’ll just have the pen and I’ll write in the dark…it’ll be like hieroglyphics.” — Jenny (22:14)

• Professional Social Media Weariness:

  • Conversations about Instagram fatigue and the odd intensity of digital access to strangers.
  • “Whenever I’m on Instagram, I’m like, are these people even real? …Is this AI?” — Jenny (25:10)

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Listener Confession #1: The Other Woman (25:47–35:55)

Confession Read (25:47)

Summary:
A designer moves states, connects with a photographer via Instagram, and becomes romantically involved with him. After a year and a half of flirty DMs and hook-ups (some in clients’ homes post-shoot), she discovers through social media sleuthing that he had a live-in girlfriend all along. She’s since switched to a female photographer and never confronted him.

Reactions & Discussion

• On Photographers’ Bad Behavior:

  • “Not all men, but most. And maybe photographers especially…” — Caroline (27:46)
  • “I feel like that is…lots of bad behavior.” — Jenny (28:11)

• Modern Dating Realities:

  • Jenny admits being “out of the dating world,” and Caroline laments the state of things:
    • “It is bleak. It’s bleak.” — Caroline (28:22)
  • Exploration of how social media allows men to conceal relationships and expose other women to heartbreak.

• Professional Boundaries:

  • The importance of professionalism when personal and business lines blur.
  • “If I laugh at a joke that’s … kind of being sexual, and they’re like ‘oh, she’s game’, and then they do it the rest of the project.” — Caroline (31:16)

• On Cheating and Responsibility:

  • Both have zero tolerance.
    • “I have something against cheating, too. I know I’m not okay with this.” — Jenny (34:05)
    • “My thing is: hang them in the town square.” — Caroline (34:09)

Notable Quotes

• “It frustrates me that men continually put other women in positions to betray other women. Because that’s essentially what it is.” — Caroline (30:03)
• “He’s the ultimate…you know.” — Jenny (30:50)
• “Never be nasty. You can be mad, you can be sad, but you can’t be mean.” — Jenny (33:51)

Segment Timestamps

• Confession read: 25:50
• Professional boundary tips: 31:16
• Cheating discussion: 34:05

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Boundaries & Self-Acceptance (35:56–41:14)

• Owning Your Role:
  • Both agree that, as professionals and humans, it’s important to accept mistakes, set new boundaries, and move forward.
  • “If you accept the role and…you move on and you don’t do it again, then you’re…” — Caroline (40:27)
• Enemies and Foes:
  • Playful chat on keeping “enemies lists” and accepting that sometimes you’re the villain in someone else’s story.

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Listener Confession #2: Designer or Babysitter? (42:13–54:12)

Confession Read (42:13)

A young designer describes being manipulated into providing childcare during client meetings—eventually realizing she was being taken advantage of and setting a boundary.

Discussion & Insights

• Natural Slippery Slope:

  • Both hosts relate, noting how easily professional relationships blur, especially when you want to be liked or your business is young.
  • “If she’s willing to waste money for me to hang out with her kid…I’m what, $200/hour? That’s way more than a babysitter.” — Caroline (46:32)

• Importance of Boundaries:

  • “It’s up to us to set the precedent.” — Caroline (51:18)
  • Setting up clear meeting times and time limits earns more client respect.
  • “When I set time limits…I’m just way more respected.” — Caroline (52:23)
  • Self-reflection on being too eager, especially early in a career, and the value of learning from mistakes.

Penance & Moving Forward

• No villain, but the designer learned from experience and now sets boundaries earlier.
• “It happened once and it never happens again.” — Jenny (53:13)

Segment Timestamps

• Confession read: 42:13
• Boundaries discussion: 50:59
• Advice for younger designers: 53:11

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Industry Wisdom: Changes, Trends, and Designer Tips (56:04–73:42)

• What’s Changed for the Better:

  • Design is “so elevated”—social media has forced both commercial and residential spaces to become more thoughtful, creative, and Instagrammable.
  • “I think businesses, restaurants are really seeing, like, that Instagrammable moment.” — Jenny (57:16)

• What We Should Revive:

  • Return to chintz and vibrant, patterned traditions for upholstery and textiles.
  • “We need to get back to chintz… Just nice quilted… I love a good floral chintz.” — Jenny (59:31, 61:10)

• Handling Hesitant Clients:

  • Both discuss how clients often make safe choices early on, only to regret not being bolder later.
  • “Shoot for the moon, because you don’t know what people are going to spend money on.” — Jenny (63:30)
  • Show clients full vision early—even if it feels “too much.”

• Estate Sale Tips (66:02–73:06):

  • Go for the experience, not just a deal.
    • “You don’t need to buy something. Always be respectful. Bring a tape measure. It’s really fun to see the house.” — Jenny (66:48)
  • Take photos for inspiration and brain-archiving.
  • Grab items you’re interested in (take the ticket) before thinking too hard—don’t let opportunity slip.
  • Be kind and patient. Don’t get upset if you miss out.
  • The website/app estatesales.net is the place to start.

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Final Thoughts: Finding Joy & Meaning (73:42–end)

• What Made You Feel:

  • Family, friendship, and maintaining positivity despite the chaos of the world:
    • “My relationships and friendships are my favorite thing… I want to be a source of light and happiness and joy.” — Jenny (74:13)

• Design as Brightness:

  • Both hosts view their work as making the world more beautiful and spreading joy.

• Where to Find Jenny:

  • Website: jennybrown.com
  • Instagram: @jennybrowndesigns
  • “And you can probably find me at an estate sale.” — Jenny (76:19)

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Notable Quotes

• “Every space has its sins.” — Caroline (00:04)
• “My, like, business mantra is never be nasty. You can be mad, you can be sad, but you can’t be mean.” — Jenny (33:51)
• “If you accept the role, sort of feel and then you move on and you don’t do it again, then you’re… [okay].” — Caroline (40:27)
• “Shoot for the moon…you don’t know what people are going to spend money on.” — Jenny (63:30)

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Key Takeaways

• The Line Between Personal and Professional: Navigating blurred boundaries with clients and colleagues is an almost inevitable challenge in design—clear, early boundaries and self-respect are crucial.
• Learning From Mistakes: Early-career slip-ups and discomforts are not only common, but ultimately help designers discover their style, values, and build resilience.
• Supporting Each Other: The design world, while glamorous, is also rife with ethical minefields and emotional labor—but with candor and mutual support, designers can thrive.
• Love (and Limits) for the Hunt: Whether through estate sales or eBay, designers' passion for the chase is matched only by their need to edit, pace themselves, and accept that not everything can (or should) come home.

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For more juicy design confessions, behind-the-scenes truths, and further episodes, subscribe to Confessions of an Interior Designer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite platform.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school. Because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Jenny Brown, founder of Chicago based Jenny Brown Designs. She launched her Studio in 2010 after nearly a decade working with high end residential design firms in both Chicago and San Francisco. Since then, she's worked on a wide range of residential and commercial projects and is known for interiors that feel traditionally rooted yet fresh, creating spaces that are both chic and inviting.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Oh my gosh. This is so fun.

[A]

I'm so excited.

[B]

I'm so happy to be here. And I love.

[A]

This is. You guys are gonna love her. This is gonna be great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so how we always start. Tell us how you got here.

[B]

I started my professional career, right? With internships. I had an internship at Sotheby's downtown. I grew up on the north shore in Lake Forest. In college, at some point, you know what? I would. Let's even go back farther, please. I would babysit all the time.

[A]

So you got to see some cool houses.

[B]

So I got to see some cool houses. And I loved it. I loved children, I loved making money, and I loved going in all these houses. And it's so funny, cause my husband, we have family who lives up there still. Or like my husband's family now lives there, a lot of them. And we would drive around and I'd be like, I've been in that house. I've been in that house. And he was like, did you ever have repeat clocks clients?

[A]

Like, did you find a lot of single glass?

[B]

Yeah, like, I wanted to see a lot of houses. Okay. And we would drive around. My brother and I would drive around on the weekend and go to like garage sales or if there was like an open house. And we would all like, our parents were coming and we'd like pick out our bedrooms. And so I always loved it. And so then, so fun. Like when I was thinking about what I wanted to do, I worked at and like trying to get like jobs or internships. I had an internship at Sotheby's in Chicago. And at this point there was some article that came out and they were like, this is like the chicest internship. And people will know. Like, people in my age will know. It was like, oh.

[A]

I mean, Sotheby's is a major big deal. Yeah.

[B]

This was in the 90s and then so I got this internship for maybe like around 2. No, it was like around 2000. So I got it at Sotheby's in Chicago when they still had their brick and mortar and they would still have auctions. And it was so fun. Cause I would work in every department.

[A]

And I'm sure you got like an education on so many different things. Yeah, like, I mean, you're thrown in.

[B]

You are thrown in and you get to see everything. And I remember writing descriptions for the motorcycle auction that they were having.

[A]

Not something you think you're gonna need to do necessarily.

[B]

Not something. But you're like. And being like up in this attic, you know, like on a computer, trying to like make sure I wasn't ending sentences in a preposition. Like using all being like, how am I gonna make this like the best little like three sentence description for this motorcycle. And actually one of my favorite stories from that summer was they had an all office like meeting and even the interns were invited, which is a big deal.

[A]

I feel like when it's a big company and the interns are. Yes, it's very clear.

[B]

Like everyone was there. And this. So it was actually 1999 that I had that internship. Because I remember going abroad the next like that fall. I was still in college. And they brought us all in and they were like, okay, we have an announcement. Sotheby's is going to have a website. And everyone was like, oh my gosh,

[A]

you know, like the Internet. Why do we need that?

[B]

Exactly, like watering it with a website, you know? So that was just like one of night.

[A]

It was so funny.

[B]

And I see like a friend of mine, Kathy Bush. And every time I see her, I like tell that story where I'm like, oh my God, do you remember? And they were like, we're gonna have a website. Anyway, we had only known.

[A]

And so we've come.

[B]

That's amazing how far we've come. And so I was there for a summer and I do remember there being. They would be like, oh my God, these decorators. Like, the decorator would ask for the condition report. The decorator would like, was like just kind of just a pain in the way.

[A]

Annoying to work with. Yes.

[B]

So then the next year I ended up going. I didn't end up going back there. And I. It was also a lot of business. Right. A lot of sales. It was. You were surrounded by beautiful things. But I went and worked at an art gallery. Cause I was like, oh, maybe I want to do that. And that was really fun. My mom had an apartment downtown at this point in the city. And it was the same sort of thing, though. They'd be like, oh, the decorators come in, and they just want to match the art to the curtains. Like, they don't care. And at one point, I was staying at my mom's apartment, and I realized she needed coasters. And there used to be all these design shops on well street, like little furniture stores, like antique stores. And so I walked out one day, and I was just kind of looking around, being like, why is that fence, like, so ugly? You know? Or, like, why is just. I don't know, just looking at the design of buildings old and new.

[A]

Yes, I do the same.

[B]

This set of coasters, and they were marble. And my mom has this faux marble little side table. And so when I got home, they looked so good on the table. And I just remember thinking, like, oh, I should be a decorator. That was easy.

[A]

I should do this.

[B]

I should do this. And also, like, I'd gone to boarding school at east, and then I was at. I went to Kenyon College. That's where I was when I had this revelation. And I would always decorate my room at the beginning of the year. And I was always rearranging the floor plan, and then other people would rearrange it. And, like, that was like, all of my notebooks was always, like, a floor plan. And, like. And things are.

[A]

Yeah, I was just talking with someone about this because I feel like we used to not get new stuff. We just moved our stuff around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you would redo your layout, but not necessarily buy anything. Or maybe you would buy, like, one chair, and then everything would change but the layout. And it felt like you're walking into a new space. I feel like I don't do that often enough because I, like, this is the perfect way. I'm getting stuck in the way that it's perfect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Versus, like, you know, creating something new.

[B]

Well, and I think it's also, like, when we're doing this for our careers, it's like the Cobbler's children, you know, 1,000%. I say that all the time.

[A]

1,000%.

[B]

But if you ask my boys, I mean, I don't remember my mom, like, bringing new furniture in and out at all. Like, maybe we changed the wallpaper once.

[A]

Sure. And it was, like, a big deal when things changed.

[B]

It was like, we all picked it. Like, whereas in our house, my boys are like, what's in the back of the car?

[A]

You're like, don't worry about it.

[B]

Don't Worry about it. Don't talk about that. And then also though, like, with the board, like being in college or like your dorm room, it's like you would go and you would buy like one tapestry or you would like go to anthropology in Columbus and buy curtains. But there was, There wasn't online shopping, so it wasn't like, oh, it's gonna be here tomorrow. You know, there wasn't like this whole.

[A]

You had to like hunt and gather. Yes.

[B]

And. Which was so fun. Or you go to like Salvation Army.

[A]

Like.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Like, I mean, that's like when you get like the best, like, feeling like the shopping high. I get the best shopping high when I've just walked out with the best deal ever. And I'm like, no one knows what I just bought. But oh my. Like, it is better than like buying a designer bag, buying anything expensive for me, like getting a deal when I know something is like, valuable and it's beautiful and other people don't appreciate it.

[B]

Like, there's a high.

[A]

It's a high like no other.

[B]

Oh, I mean, I'm chasing that high constantly.

[A]

That's kind of a problem.

[B]

Constantly.

[A]

Hence the things in the trunk.

[B]

And then it's. And so you're like, once you realize that though, and then you're like, like, I have this thing where it's like you can find really high end. Like I was talking about this, like designer shoes from like Todd's Ferragamo and everything on the realreal that are like, you can for 40 bucks.

[A]

It's crazy. It's.

[B]

And so then you're like, oh, okay. Like, we got like, put that.

[A]

I got a chill.

[B]

Like it's one thing if you'. Okay, at least I have to go to the thrift store or the estate sale or the antique store.

[A]

It's just too easy.

[B]

You haven't open. You haven't like taken your second sip of coffee and you're like, oh, wait, I've already. I'm. I've already applebed that. Right.

[A]

I've already check out, activated that thing.

[B]

And now it's like when you eat sugar early in the morning, immediately your body is.

[A]

You're like, I need more. I do the same thing. If I have to stop by a store or do something, I'll be like, I can't go back to drawings. I can't go. I have to shop more. Like, I need to shop more. And the girls are like, what is wrong with you? Like, I get. Yeah, that might be an issue.

[B]

But then it's Also like the Facebook marketplace. Like, and you're like, I'm supporting local businesses.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I'll tell like Jack too. Or he's like, oh, why didn't you? Or like where it's like, oh, just get your groceries delivered. I'm like, I love the Cha Ching. Like, let me throw my credit card in there. Like, why would I not? Jewel is my favorite place, you know?

[A]

Wait, have you. Sorry, this is a bit of a tangent, but have you seen they make this wand that you can put your debit card in.

[B]

Get me one of those. Oh my God, I'm holding you.

[A]

I'm not kidding. Like, if I took maybe a little bit too much of an edible, I would buy that. Like, I'm really close.

[B]

Oh, my God. I mean, well, and you know that you probably have to buy like 10 of them.

[A]

I'm sure they do not come in one piece.

[B]

No, no, no, you have to buy 10 of them.

[A]

Listen, I'll buy. I can give it to everyone.

[B]

I know. I already know. I could give it to my son though. I have a 16 year old son, I told you, who's away at school right now. He actually, he's visiting friends and I was like, do you have my credit card? And you just sent me a picture and like I'm. Oh my God. I mean, he is like fairy godmother, you know, I mean he would just be. Yeah, you gotta get him all. Gets it from me.

[A]

He gets it from me.

[B]

He comes by an honest. Yeah, he does. He does.

[A]

Oh my God, that's so funny.

[B]

Anyway, so wait, so how did I get my.

[A]

Wait, so where were we? We were talking about where were we? Okay. Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So then I was like, oh, I wanna be a decorator. And so I started bringing it back. So I ended up at the time. So when I was in high school also I remember seeing like in magazines. Remember mag? I mean, we still love our magazines. But there was this ad and it was Bill Gates. And they were like, bill Gates started reading Forbes magazine when he was 14 years old. And I think I was 14. And so I was like, well, I need to get this.

[A]

I'm going to start reading Forbes, obviously. And then I got.

[B]

So I got Forbes. I just got all the magazines. So I got Forbes. W. Do you remember W magazine?

[A]

It was like this big.

[B]

Massive.

[A]

Massive. I swear it was made for hairstylist coffee table.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it was, but it was like the Bible. You're like, great. And actually I feel like, because I got that I got Vogue and Those were pretty neck and neck. And I don't know when. I don't think it just got too big. Maybe it was too.

[A]

Did they get bought out? Like, I don't. That's.

[B]

I think it might even still exist. But, like, when am I even going to see. There's no, like, newsstands anymore, so where

[A]

would you even buy those?

[B]

And then I also got Architectural Digest. So I had this, like, huge collection of Architectural Digest. Because. Why, of course, I would throw away the Forbes. I would throw away the Vogue. I throw away the.

[A]

You've got to keep it.

[B]

You've got to keep it. Because actually, growing up, there was a family. And the mom was like this baker. They had this tiny little kitchen in this beautiful house. But I just remember on their living room coffee table, they had, like, Architectural Digest laid out so chic. It was. The year was 1991, you know, and I was like, listen, that was ahead of its time. Someday I'm gonna get. And my grandmother had Vogues. And I would sit. And my mom wasn't, like, into that sort of stuff. She was into, like, books and everything, but not like, she's not the material girl that I am. It comes naturally from both my grandmothers, I think. So I'd be, like, reading my grandmother's Vogues. Anyway, so I had all these Architectural Digests. So when I was. I realized I wanted to be the decorator and a friend. And I decided. Or I was like, I think I'm gonna move to San Francisco. I'd been on the east coast for high school. I was in the Midwest for college. And my grandmother was from San Francisco originally. And it just felt kind of chic and fun and new and different. And I was like, if I go to New York, I am going to be like, I. That's a crippling FOMO anyway, you know, And I'm just like, I don't. I don't want to do that right now. Maybe someday. And actually, it would have been fun to do it, but it's all good. And so I ended up looking in the back of Architectural Digest, and they used to have just a list of every design firm that was published. And so I wrote to everyone in San Francisco, like, brilliant. I typed up my thing, and I sent it off to all these design firms. And I got a call back from a few of them. I went out and interviewed. And it was amazing. Cause it was during the summer. And my friends. Anyway, I had a friend who was also gonna move to San Francisco from Lake Forest. Like, my oldest Dearest friend.

[A]

It's so fun when you're getting to do it with someone that you've known

[B]

for a long time. So we like loaded up the car with all of our Vera Bradley I do know, and we were off. But my friend's mom lived in San Francisco in this beautiful house that was like a city block. She and her second husband lived there. I think, like the founder of, like, OpenAI just bought this house. Cause sadly she passed away. But it was this beautiful house that had like a rose garden right on this hill in San Francisco. And they were spending the summer in Michigan. So I lived in this house for a week by myself while I went, like, hustling, trying to find a job. And so I ended up getting a job with this firm called the Wiseman Group, which is like a very high end, like, firm out there. Yeah. And it was like in this beautiful Victorian house in Potrero Hill. Like, it was. It was. That's dreamy.

[A]

Like, that's.

[B]

It was majestic. They had two different offices, like two different buildings. They had another house that was more kind of mid century, like, Asian. And that was where all the bookkeeping and accounting. And it was a serious operation.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like it.

[B]

And I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I had no idea what I was doing. And then also just like, just to kind of like, place the time. My first day was September 10, 2001.

[A]

I just got chills. I had a feeling you were about to say that. That is.

[B]

And so it's kind of interesting. Like, we all have our story. Like, where were you?

[A]

Where were you from?

[B]

My exact. My, like, graduating class of 2001. It was like, that was like my first day of work. And so I always. When I have these anniversary, I'm like, oh, that was like my poor canvas. Oh, my God.

[A]

And I mean, you're like post grad and you're so fresh into the world and then this crazy thing happens and it's like, rocks the world. I mean, as we knew it. Like, that's a stabilizing thing. That's wild.

[B]

It was wild. And it was going. I remember going in the next day though, and just like writing because we work so much with New York, obviously, because like, all these firms were there and. Or not firms, but like showrooms. I mean, we worked in San Francisco too, but it's like, funny. I guess we had problems. A project in New York I was working on anyway, so we had to communicate there. And so you'd be like, oh, my gosh, I'm So, you know, we're thinking about you. I'm so sorry. Like, hope everyone's okay. And, like, by the way.

[A]

By the way,

[B]

I was ordering, or I quoted, it was a cappuccino pony hide. Wing chair. I just remember being.

[A]

I cannot believe you remember that.

[B]

That's amazing, because I was like, I have arrived. Like, I. I haven't ordered Respect one since, but maybe I should. I'm like. I don't even know. Everyone's like, pony hide. I'm like, yeah.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. Yep.

[B]

The hide of ponies. I don't think it's actually.

[A]

I don't think it's actually ponies, luckily. I don't think so.

[B]

I don't think so. But it's some animal. But it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think it's infancy. No, I don't think so.

[A]

Luckily not.

[B]

So anyway, I was there for two years, and so that was, like, 2003, and they had this kind of round of layoffs that was somewhat devastating, but it was just. I don't know. It was a great experience when I was there.

[A]

But also, like, getting laid off and getting fired is kind of key in a career, I think.

[B]

No, and I think so, too.

[A]

Especially being a boss. Yeah. I think learning how, like, being fired teaches you how to fire people, I think.

[B]

And actually firing people is not. It's a really empowering thing.

[A]

Yeah, it can be.

[B]

It's a really empowering thing. I mean, I'm not. But I'm not good at that.

[A]

I have, like.

[B]

And I don't want to fire anyone.

[A]

No, I'm completely with you. I just mean that it's.

[B]

No, I think. No, but I think it is. It's, like, always about the backstory, how you get somewhere. Right. It's not all rainbows and sunshine and those setbacks or whatever. So I ended up. I was looking for jobs in San Francisco and then ended up coming home for the 4th of July and was put in touch with Alessandra Branca, which

[A]

obviously, like, Forest wrote, fourth of July is, like, silky. So it's.

[B]

Except then I met my husband, like, two years later, and I have not spent Fourth of July in, like, worst ever since. Which is fine, but it wasn't a big deal. I mean, it was, like, fun for us. We would always party. Whereas, like, where we are in Michigan, it's like, it is Christmas.

[A]

I mean, yeah, it is Christmas in

[B]

July, but I remember taking these. Okay. Like, little pivot. Like, the first time I was up in Michigan, like, taking this, like, red, white, and blue tinsel out of this bin because they were like, we gotta decorate the golf cart. We gotta do for the parade. And being like, what are you talking about? I mean, like this old tinsel. But then it's like, wait, my mom. I don't know when my mom bought the tinsel that she puts on her tree every year. Probably in, I don't know, like 1970.

[A]

1980?

[B]

Yeah. Like, probably 1974. And we still use it and you put it back in the box. So it's the same thing.

[A]

I mean, things were made way better back then.

[B]

They were made. And then you use them. If they break, you throw them away. But, like, you don't need to go out and buy new Fourth of July decorations.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Anyway, how did we get there? So, anyway, I got. Came back and I was put in touch with Alessandra and I started working for her and was with her for about seven years until seven years, Eight. I don't time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I ended up not going back. After my son was born, I had. My oldest was born. He was actually quite early, so he was in the hospital for a long time, like almost a month. And so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then after that, a few months after he was born, a friend of mine who's an architect reached out to me and was like, oh. And I was doing house committee work for a club. And so I was kind of. I was still doing.

[A]

Yeah, you had your. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And someone reached out and was like, would you ever be interested in, like, you know, helping these people? They. They were actually living abroad at the time. And so I was like, okay. And so I. Sure, yeah. Logged onto Legal Zoom and started my business.

[A]

That's how I did it, too. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I did it, too. Legal Zoom is, I mean, amazing for that. You can file an LLC in about 30 minutes and you, like, have a business. It's incredible.

[B]

And it's so funny because my tax guy was just like, oh, well, the order. Like, we need to talk about the organization. He needed something. And so I like. He was like, do you have the documents from when you establish your business? And I just pulled out my Legal Zoom binder and texted him right here, my articles of organization. And I was like, is this what you need? And he was like, yes, it is.

[A]

This is an ad for Legal Zoom. No, I wish it were sponsored by LegalZoom. You wish. Call us. We do talk about legal issues pretty frequently, so that wouldn't be that far off anyway.

[B]

And so now I've been In business for myself ever since. Yeah. So again, I've got these markers and some. My son, 16 years old for about that long. Yeah.

[A]

Amazing. Amazing. I mean, you've had an incredible career. That's. And you. I mean, you do incredible work. We're going to talk about it. About it. About it. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right. Then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheet. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to Programmat Design and use code Confessions25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Doubt it. Before we get into confessions, what's your advice? Advice?

[B]

Okay, so I've been thinking about this because I've listened to your podcast. I should have listened to it more. But then sometimes you're like, you don't

[A]

want to have too much information. Yes. Yeah, that's a little bit too program, so.

[B]

Cause I was thinking advice is kind of like a guilty pleasure or like a cheap thrill, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So I think my advice, other than buying things final sale online without trying them on, would be kind of the side quest. I like the side quest with the, like, the conversations, as you can see. I like the side quest where it's like, oh, going to. From point A to point B. We need to be there in 20 minutes. It's 18 minutes away. I. I think there's room. I think there's room to make.

[A]

We can fit something else in here.

[B]

I think we can fit something else in here. I mean, maybe not that.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But you know, kind of like, like, you know, like, oh, my God, like, let's go see what's in there. Or just. And and actually, at night, I have found this. So I would say that like, like, vice. I mean, I don't. I don't feel like I'm trying to think, what are some other, like, vices? I don't really.

[A]

I mean, you know, I don't drink.

[B]

I don't. I stopped drinking four years ago, which has been. Me too.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Which is just, I think, the best.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't.

[A]

I don't miss it at all.

[B]

I don't have time. And I look back, like, there's, like, the fantasy or not the fantasy. Like, I look back and, like, it was fun, but, like, there's too much other stuff I want to do right now.

[A]

I know I drink in Europe because I don't get hungover. Yeah. That's why I don't drink in the US Is because I get hungover.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so if I don't have a hangover and you can drink champagne, great. But, like, if I'm going to be a. The next day, it's a no. Yeah.

[B]

We can't do it.

[A]

The U.S. alcohol in the U.S. i mean, it just is, like, poisoning.

[B]

I get you.

[A]

Yeah. It really. I mean, it really does. I've embarrassed myself a couple times early on in this career when I was still drinking, and thank God I'm not drinking anymore. Like, that was very early on. I feel like I was young enough,

[B]

but it was like, we all do that.

[A]

I get that. I feel like it's to a point. So I'm very glad I stopped doing it.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, I don't do that actually. Sometimes the night before, like, I have lots of work up in Lake Forest or in the suburbs, like, or Winnecka and within the city. And actually, I found this great hack for myself for keeping myself organized because it's a little, like, it's not always

[A]

going on up there.

[B]

It's not always linear, and it can be confusing for others and for myself sometimes. And so, like, I'll be like, okay, we're going to Lake Forest. So we're gonna go to this job site and then it's like. And then we're gonna swing by, you know, Anna's, and then we're gonna go here, you know, and, like, try and have, like, a little, like, arrows pointing just so I remember to do all the.

[A]

I do the same thing.

[B]

All the side quests.

[A]

The girls always tell me, like, you always say out loud what you're about to do, even if it doesn't affect anyone else. So I'll be like, okay, I'M gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this. And they're like, okay. Like, okay. But it's almost. My brain needs me to say it. So then it, like, you know.

[B]

Well, you need to remember it. And there's a lot you wanna do. And so I have notepads next to every one of my beds. Cause I have so many beds, but I do. I have kind of sleeping issues. And so I'll like, bed surf if I can't sleep. And so I have a little notepad and I'll try and write down, like, any notes of things to do tomorrow. And this has been a game changer for me.

[A]

I need to do that too. When I'm falling asleep, I always think of things and I'm like, I don't wanna look at my phone. Cause the blue light.

[B]

No, you can't. So you have to have it. And sometimes. Sometimes I'll just have the pen and I'll write it in the dark. And it'll be like hieroglyphics, but it'll be. And then the next day, or it's like 3am and it's like disguise falling. You know when you wake up and you're like, oh, my God, panic. And then you write down the note. And I remember once this happened where I was like, oh, God, what crisis in the middle of the night. And I look on my page and it says Peggy's lampshades.

[A]

You know, it's like the smallest things ever.

[B]

Peggy slamshades were keeping me up. You know, and so it is really helpful because otherwise, yes, that's brilliant. But you kind of can't sleep when you have those.

[A]

No, you can. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and there are other existential crises, but when it's just like work stuff or side quests or don't forget to go to, like, Ashley and Sloan when you're driving up through Libertyville. You know, it's.

[A]

It's a lot going on. It's a lot of balls to keep in the air. I feel like. And trying to, like, master that is. I feel like the constant side quest is.

[B]

But I think it's also like, I like this, you know, Me too. This is the pace I like. Me too. Like, I don't love. I would get it.

[A]

So bored.

[B]

I don't. Yeah. And I don't need. I mean, I do sit sometimes, but. And you know, maybe it won't. I won't be going at this pace all the time, but.

[A]

But while you can. And you like, it and you want to. And it's energizing and it feels good.

[B]

And as long as I can get all the other stuff done, I just feel like I'm packing things in.

[A]

Yeah, I feel the same. I actually was talking about this because when we're not doing the podcast, I should have a lot more time, but I don't. Like, I fill it with other things. I don't pull back and focus on other things. I'm just like, okay, what are we adding? Because it's like my. I mean, an object in motion stays in motion, so there's something about, like, adding things so you continue to stay in motion. That, like. Because I feel like if I. When I crash, I mean, I'm out for like, a couple days.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, and I do do that.

[B]

I do have a tendency to kind of. And then you think like, oh, I'm not drinking. Like, I'm not going to, like, have this. But it's like, no, you can fully get hungover your body over.

[A]

I felt hungover all week from daylight savings. I feel like they moved our clocks four hours. Like they. They did something and didn't tell us. Because I feel crazy. I'm not going to sleep until like, 2am I can't wake up.

[B]

Like, yeah, anyway, sorry. I know, I know. But I'm with you. I mean, it is. And so. Yeah, it doesn't like. And yeah. Anyway, it's. It's all good. It's trying to figure out the balance when you don't want that. Yes.

[A]

And at this pace, it's hard sometimes to, like, be going at that pace and figuring out the balance at the same time. Yeah. I feel.

[B]

But then when you have like a night where you're like, okay, we don't, like, we've got something after this, we've got work. And then it's like. But then it's like, oh, we don't have plans so good. So we can just sit and.

[A]

I know my least favorite question is, what did you do this weekend? Because the answer is always, nothing. Yeah, because what do you mean?

[B]

Why would I know? Like, what did I do? I don't know.

[A]

There's no clue. There's 36, 48 hours that are unaccounted for.

[B]

Or check my Instagram stories. Like, maybe. But even that, like, I'm just not even posting as much anymore. I feel like that's changed a little bit too.

[A]

For a show for me too.

[B]

Before, there was some. It was the pull to do it.

[A]

But it's also.

[B]

I Like now, whenever I'm on Instagram, I'm like, is this. Are these people even real?

[A]

Is this all I know?

[B]

AI.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

I'm like, actually, I do kind of like what you're saying, but I'm like, who are these strangers, and do they even exist?

[A]

It's a lot of access to people that we don't know, and I don't think we're equipped as a humankind for that. Like, we should not know this many people. We should not have access, and this many people shouldn't have access to us.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that's like kind of a destabilizing effect. I'm working through that right now. It's a bit.

[B]

It's weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

It's very weird.

[B]

Very weird.

[A]

Weird. Very weird. Okay, let's get into confessions.

[B]

Oh, yes, please.

[A]

This one's a good one. Juicy. After moving to a new state, I struggled to find an interior photographer that matched my aesthetic. Through Instagram, I came across someone who seemed to fit the bill perfectly. Though he was based a couple hours away, he traveled to my area often. He and I DMed a bit before chatting on the phone, where we hit it off immediately. Not too long after this conversation, the DMs began to turn flirty. He'd taken the lead, but I was thrilled. I thought he was super attractive. And based on what I'd gleaned from a few other designer contacts who followed him, he was indeed straight and single. Which is key, I feel.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, this is all great.

[A]

Yeah, perfect. Meet cute. We ended up meeting in person after one of his local shoots and hooked up, ultimately seeing each other romantically multiple times over the course of a year and a half.

[B]

Wow. That's like.

[A]

They were. That's wild. Good for them. Yeah, very. Meet cute. Well, maybe I used him for a couple of my own projects too, but in between, we'd see each other at my place, or I'd meet him at one of the hotels he was staying at while in town for bookings. We'd even had a super sexy tryst in a client's empty mansion post shoot. Ooh. Between these hookups, though, the photographer would often go distant or mention that he had rekindled with an on and off fling in his city. But he'd eventually come running back each time. I'd mainly kept our fling a secret in order to maintain my profession professionalism. But now I'm really glad that I only spilled the tea to a handful of friends last year. Completely out of the blue. He started posting photos of another woman on Instagram and via some sleuthing on her page. I found out they had not only been dating the entire time we'd been hooking up, they'd also been living together. I was shocked and dismayed that he had been so blatantly cheating on someone who, from the looks of social media, completely adores him. I've never confronted him about this, but it's safe to say I've switched to a new female photographer since I feel like often my takeaway from these stories is, like, not all men, but most.

[B]

And I'm gonna put, like. And maybe photographers especially, like, no offense. I feel like.

[A]

I'm sure.

[B]

I'm like, there's, like, some.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. Between fashion photographers and interior photographers. Yeah.

[B]

That's what I feel like. You hear this. Like, who is it? Who's, like, the most. I know, like, Slim Aarons was supposedly one of the biggest mistakes. Like, yeah, like, a total. And, like, not to name names, but, I mean, I feel like that is.

[A]

I have bad behavior.

[B]

Lots of bad behavior. Lots of bad behavior. And I. You know, I've been married for almost 20 years, so I've. I'm, like, out of the dating world. And it is.

[A]

Oh, it's.

[B]

It sounds pretty rough out there.

[A]

It is bleak. It's bleak.

[B]

And I have two boys, and I'm like, okay. I want to raise them to be, like, yeah, good.

[A]

We need good moms to be raising good boys.

[B]

Because how to treat women.

[A]

There's a gap in the generation right now of men because, like, what is happening. We talk about it all the time. It's so funny because, like, when I was 22 and in the club, the girls were standing on tables. Now it's the men, really. All the women are down on the ground, and the men are on the tables dancing.

[B]

Interesting. Actually.

[A]

Not even dancing. They're literally standing. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, do you wanna be us? What's the situation here? I'm confused. I always thought you were sort of coming to the club to watch women dance. Are you here for the other men? You might be in the wrong club.

[B]

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Claire is dying laughing. But it's true. It's so embarrassing for them.

[B]

Yeah, it's really embarrassing.

[A]

I don't understand. I don't understand it. I really don't. It is. Yeah. It's gnarly out there, for sure.

[B]

Well, and I think in general, like. Like, it's like, this is. She's single, he's single. Seemingly like, okay, that's fine. Like, I almost wish she had maybe done a deeper dive on him at the beginning. And I'm not trying to put this on her, but just for her own.

[A]

Well, it sounds like maybe he had never posted the girl that he was. But she was posting him the whole time.

[B]

Yeah. And so when he went to.

[A]

Which is definitely a strategy that they use.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like to keep the relationship that they have, but not expose it to all the other women that have cooled.

[B]

Yeah, of course. And so, I mean, we know, like, quite a few, like, big podcasters who, it seems, doesn't take. You don't have to look very far to found these kind of dirt bad guys.

[A]

Yeah. It's a needle in a haystack to find a good one is sometimes what it feels like. And the thing is, like, yeah, this is sweet and innocent. There's like nothing on the face that's, like, inherently wrong. It's two consenting adults who are like. Like each other. Fine. But it frustrates me that men continually put other women in positions to betray other women. Women. Because that's essentially what it is. Like you are having someone cheat with you without the knowledge that they're cheating.

[B]

Well, in that case, yes.

[A]

And that is because there are bad

[B]

girls out there too.

[A]

But I mean, certainly people are, like, together, they know they're cheating and they're cheating for sure. But, like, you are hurting two women way more than is necessary. Like, you're. It's not like they're. They were together and in on it together.

[B]

Oh, you know, it feels like a double whammy. No, it's an. It's totally a double whammy.

[A]

He's an. He's the ultimate. You know. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think it's also. And this is not slighting her at all, because if she's single, he's single. Whatever. They're a photographer, they're young, having fun, but just in general, like, being professional a little bit like.

[A]

Or not.

[B]

Not professional, but don't be careful about any vibes you give off. And not. I'm not saying that the men aren't playing a role in it too, but it's like, you really?

[A]

Well, I found that on construction sites. Like, if I. I, in the beginning, am trying to play nice and I laugh at a joke that's like, not that funny or, like, kind of being sexual, and then they're like, oh, she's game. And they do it the rest of the project. And you're like, fuck, now it's too Late. Because if I say something, it's gonna be like a big thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, and you don't.

[A]

And you have to like, keep the peace. But I've learned I just have to be like, uh huh. Yeah. And then move on. So they know. Like, I'm not gonna.

[B]

You're not here to play.

[A]

I'm not gonna agree with your sexist joke about whatever you're about to say.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I feel like that is something that I've had to learn after, like a couple of issues, like wanting to play nice and then it ends up being like it bites you in the ass. Yeah, well.

[B]

And you just. It's like this is. It's like there's a level of respect and trying to keep it.

[A]

And I, you know, I think it's hard because there's. We like, know so much about our clients. We know so much. Like, we are. We're all toget. We spend so much time together. But to maintain that level of professionalism is like kind of the crux. Like, you have to. Or else everything falls apart.

[B]

Yeah. And I'll see it happening sometimes with like a contractor, like one of my assistants, because there is that like, power play too. And they'll make a compliment, which is fine. You know, sometimes I like, I think men can compliment people and I compliment people and everything, but it's. Yeah, it's just. There's like a little thin line that

[A]

you're like, I bring beautiful girls with me on site. I know. And I really didn't do it on purpose. It's just happened that way.

[B]

But they are all beautiful, pretty people.

[A]

Yeah, I do, clearly. And Exactly. That's kind of our industry. But I do feel very protective over them when they're on site. Like, I'm like, if. If you hear a comment, tell me. Like, I am. Those guys know not to fuck around because I will literally go in and be like, what did you say to her? Like, I'm not. Because the last thing I want is them to feel uncomfortable. And these guys need to understand just because they're young and beautiful doesn't mean, like, they want to be hit on at work all the time.

[B]

Right. For sure.

[A]

It's completely disrespectful.

[B]

No. And I remember it when I was younger, more. And I don't know if it's just shifted or I've gotten that much older now, but it's. Yeah.

[A]

I think you also, I think, have probably like, gained respect.

[B]

Well, yeah. And you just have to. You kind of brush it. You don't end because you don't want to necessarily make the other person feel bad, which I know people are gonna be like, no, don't say that they should, but. So I have kind of a. And not necessarily in line with that exact one, but, like, are. My, like, business mantra is like, never be nasty. And you can be mad, you can be sad, but you can't be mean. That's, like, poached from, like, a children's book. And so, yeah, you just kind of have that. It's like. But it's like, okay, how are we gonna, like, stop this and then move on?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, Exactly.

[A]

Okay. Some penance, I will say. I have definitely have a thing around cheating. So I feel like it's, like, more intense for me, but I kind of think that he should have to be celibate for at least a year.

[B]

Oh, I have something against cheating, too. I know I'm not okay with this.

[A]

Oh, I didn't think you. I just mean, like, some people are, like, it's not that big of a deal. Yeah. For me, it's like, hang them in the town square.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, like, no, I don't agree. And it's. It's like, yeah, I agree.

[A]

You're, like, potentially disrupting the trust of someone else for their entire life. Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, also, it's like, if you're doing it with me, you're doing it with her. Like, does she need to know? So I just started reading Stranger.

[A]

We were just talking about this at dinner the other night.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yes. Like, it's like, next on my list.

[B]

Oh, my God. I just. Dying. You know what? And it's so. It's such a great book because I'm only this far into it, but she just gets right to the stuff, you know? This is not a bad job.

[A]

I have had so many people say, you have to read it. I'm only halfway through. Through. Yeah. No, like, nobody recommends a book halfway through. But everyone is.

[B]

Well, just because she's a great writer, too, and a great storyteller.

[A]

But everyone picked that book up. It's supposed to be incredible, and it's phenomenal. Like a memoir, a true story.

[B]

Yeah, it's a memoir.

[A]

It's horrible.

[B]

I love it, but I don't know. I don't know what happens.

[A]

Sure. Okay, well, we gotta get into that. And then penance for the designer. I feel she should date outside of work. Maybe, like, just for herself put.

[B]

You mean how to get some closure with all of this. Is this more Of a. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we say penance. Like, it can be anything from, like, if something bad happens to the designer, it's like, they deserve a bubble bath and a bottle of wine. Or if so we kind of do it both ways. I just don't know that it ever is worth getting involved with someone who's, like, involved in your work life, personally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you own a company.

[B]

No, I totally agree. And, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's almost like you almost have. You should stop.

[A]

You just have to let that person pull that.

[B]

Unless you're like. And maybe she thought that, like, this was going to turn into something.

[A]

I mean, I think she did it. She did. She was like, it could. But I think for her to just. And also maybe some therapy just based on.

[B]

Well, and also acknowledge your role in it. You know, like, forgive yourself for that and move on. You know, I mean, or maybe call his girlfriend or DM or.

[A]

But I don't know. I was thinking about that too. I wonder if I would say something. I think I would, personally, because I'm a little messy, and I would feel so guilty having that information and not saying it to another woman.

[B]

Well, I. That I do that. From that point of view, it's like, I'm not even trying to screw him. But I. You need to know this.

[A]

I would be doing it for both. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for both. For revenge and so she can get out. Yeah. I'm a Scorpio. So ultimately, revenge is kind of like, end goal. My goal.

[B]

Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But it doesn't, like, you know how people are like, whatever you drink the poison, it. It, like, fuels me. Like, I don't feel negative about it.

[B]

Yeah, No.

[A]

I have nemeses. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm gonna do. I'm gonna live the best life ever. So my nemeses are like, oh, my

[B]

God, she's better than me. Wait, that is so funny. I. So I'm a Capricorn, and I don't know that much about it, but my algorithm just this year realized that I'm a Capricorn. And so now it's like, I've got all these Capricorn things. Like, you're learning a lot coming at me. But I said to my son last year, like, in the fall, and I was telling. And I was like, oh, well, I don't have any enemies. And he was like, that's. He said something like that. And he wasn't being mean. He was like, that's ridiculous. He's like, everyone. Everything in nature has an enemy. Like, not. And it was such a good perspective because you're like. And I'm not saying that I'm, like, friends with everyone, but. And I just try not. Not to engage in.

[A]

Yeah, No, I am the type where you wrong me. You will never see me again. You will never hear from me again. But maybe 20 years down the line, something bad will happen, and you will have no idea why.

[B]

It's because of the curse you've been putting out.

[A]

Yeah. There's just, like, some energy that I'm putting out there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like, there are people who. I'm like, I don't forgive you. Like, I don't, but I. It's not affecting me. Like, I think you're a bad person, but forgiving you isn't going to make me. Me feel better.

[B]

Oh, this is so interesting.

[A]

Like, if anything, I would be like, well, why didn't I stand my ground?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, there's definitely. There's.

[B]

Well, and I do feel also like I've just learned of this trauma response. It's like, fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

[A]

And so that's the big one that women do a lot.

[B]

I think that's where I fall in that category where I'm like, I'm just gonna make friends. I'm just gonna forgive them.

[A]

If I just at least play nice, everything will be okay.

[B]

Like, I'm gonna. Because I don't want to carry that resentment around with me, which I think there is something to be said for that.

[A]

A hundred percent.

[B]

At the same time, I kind of like that. Yeah. No, And I. I do. But I think it's like, yes. Focusing on our own goal. Our own.

[A]

It just gives me, like, more fuel. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's. It's like. It's not that I'm like. Like, thinking about these people all the time or ever, really. It's more just like, oh, yeah, that person wronged me. Hopefully they feel bad. Yeah. But either way, I'm going to live a better life than them. Says revenge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not like I'm like, well,

[B]

it's the best revenge.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. But I also don't. Yeah, I'm not like. But I. I wish them well, and I hope everything good happens to them. I don't.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Maybe I shouldn't be admitting that, but, like, I don't. My mom is gonna dive in. Cheers.

[B]

With some. No, I love this, though. Okay, guys, I think there's a happy medium here somewhere. I think so, too. Yeah, we do, like, sitting here praying for our enemies, necessarily?

[A]

No. No, we don't.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And, like. But to your point that we have enemies, I'm like, do I have any. I'm friends with anyway?

[A]

Yes. And, you know, I'm. There are people that. I'm the enemy in their story. And I know that. I've made peace with that. Like, that is okay. I know my side of the story, but, like, ultimately it doesn't really. I am the villain in their story. And if I can make peace with that, like, the other people, because I know that I've either rectified it or done something to repair. And so I can sleep at night knowing that. But, like, I don't expect to be forgiven. Like, it's not. Like, if they don't feel that way, I don't care.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it's fine. Because that's what it comes down to in these relationships is like, there are two roles, and we all play a role. And if there's conflict and there's energy and there's.

[A]

And, like, I've certainly done things like. That's not to say that, like, I've only ever been wronged and never wronged someone else.

[B]

No, we all have a role in it. And I think. And I think once you own that also. Because the worst thing. And I feel like. Which is being like. Is like, this idea of, like, victimhood. Being like, oh, so and so, you know, and that's even where I say with her, like, she is this girl. Like, you are a victim if you're in this relationship, but it's like, you accept your role in it, because then it's like, then you're losing the power

[A]

and hopefully it doesn't repeat. I feel like if you accept the role, like, sort of feel and then you move on and you don't do

[B]

it again, then you're.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you're not glad this stuff's happened to me. You know, and it's even like with, like, when you have employees and you're like, okay, like, I am. Like, I can't expect them to care as much as I do. You know, like, and it's like, what's my role in making, you know, building them up or, you know, making them do their job as best as they can. And if that's not something you're particularly good at or good.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Then you just. Anyway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I don't know. I think it's all good. But this is like another. Another list next to your bed at night.

[A]

Listen, in my bathroom, I have a piece of art that says, do this today, make enemies list.

[B]

Do this today.

[A]

Yeah, it says, do this today, make enemies list. Repeat 1 and 2. And it's in my bathroom. It's my favorite piece of art I have in my house.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm gonna start thinking about that more.

[A]

It was literally $25 from New Orleans, and it's my favorite piece. And the ones I saw, I was like, that's my motto.

[B]

And my younger son, like, my older son is more like. We kind of let it like roll off. My younger son, like, he has lists. He'll be like, oh, do you remember that time when we had that play date and you didn't let me play with that? Or he'd be like, oh, I hate that kid. Remember that time when. And you're like, you were three, he's 12, you know, and he'll just be like, oh, they didn't give me the Popsicle. I wanted the purple popsicle, but they gave it to Reed and they didn't give it to so and so. And you're just like, what are you like, like, he.

[A]

He keeps.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I will say, luckily I have a horrible memory, so a lot of things that have happened, I don't remember remember. It's just like a couple of like, major moments in my life.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Where I'm like, well, okay, okay. Whether I don't know if you're sleeping or not, but I am.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Let's get into our next confession. I'm a designer now in my mid-30s, and this happened years ago when I was still in that phase of my career where every new client felt like an opportunity I couldn't. I was working on a project that was a full first floor renovation in a classic row house. The client was a young mom with a two year old and another baby on the way. I also have always loved kids, so when we'd meet early on, I'd talk to her two year old son and engage with him playfully, because that's just how I am. And he was so cute. We'd chat casually and she'd tell me the funny stories or major milestones he was hitting. And it was something we bonded over naturally, which I appreciated because it's always great to enjoy your clients, which, like. Yeah, I feel like so far we're good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I do the same thing. There's a couple of clients, babies, who I'm like obsessed with.

[B]

Oh, my God, I love my clients.

[A]

Children and like, getting to watch them grow up. They're so special.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, it's so special.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It became something I looked forward to to go to her home, get to see her son and her. At one point, she started joking about how her son loved me and would ask if I minded keeping an eye on him while she did small things like grabbing something upstairs or taking a quick call. Of course I said yes. I loved kids. I wanted her to like me. And I was young, so I didn't think twice about. I've also done this. Like, I. I gotta go grab the door. Can you just make sure everything's okay?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, what do you mean? No problem, please. But then the quick little things became longer moments of her going to grab something from a neighbor or calls that would leave me watching him for over 20 minutes. And with the longer times came his snack is in the fridge. If you could just grab it for him. And suddenly I was at her kitchen table feeding her child. It was one of those frog and boiling water situations where nothing felt inappropriate in the moment. But each meeting got a little less design centered and a little more childcare adjacent. But again, I was still building my business and I really wanted to be easy to work with, so I kept saying yes. There was one time that I remember so vividly where I showed up for a materials review. When I showed up to her house, she opened the door with her purse on her shoulder, two year old at her leg, and said she had to run to the pharmacy quickly and would be back in 20 minutes. Okay. She handed me the stack container. Oh, yikes. I remember standing there holding tile samples in one hand and Cheerios in the other, trying to process what was happening. And again, 20 minutes turned into 45. Yikes. But also like, you're getting paid, so

[B]

it's like, yeah, billing by the hour, you better.

[A]

Exactly, yeah, you better be billing by the hour. That's a much bigger problem if you're not. Oh my God. Of course, during that time, I wasn't reviewing finishes with her. I was reading picture books on the floor with her son.

[B]

Son.

[A]

And I was torn because I was getting paid for the time, since I billed hourly. But this was not my job. I felt like I was being taken advantage of, but didn't know how to get out of this dynamic that I'd somehow gradually slipped into. When she got back, she thanked me casually and immediately jumped into our design meeting as if nothing was weird at all. And somehow I still didn't say anything. It just kept Escalating. She began scheduling meetings during nap time and asking if I could arrive a little early to help keep things calm. She started texting things like, he loves when you come. He's so much better behaved. Oh, that's so manipulative. And I truly believe that none of this was malicious, which honestly made it harder. The moment it really clicked for me was when she said completely sincerely, that she was so glad we would still be working together when the new baby arrived so I could help. I ended up having to work up the courage to tell her I needed to set a boundary and wasn't comfortable feeling responsible for her child. And, like, I was overstepping into her personal life. It was awkward, but afterward, I found myself wishing I had done it sooner again. I was young, so I didn't know any better, and I thought I was doing something nice. But I had to learn that with some people, if you don't establish boundaries early on, they'll continue pushing you until you realize you're completely in a situation you never signed up for. I feel like this is probably kind of common.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you are engaging so much with that family, and, like, you're in their home all the time, and you are friendly, and it's often like, the mom that you're entering, you know, the wife that you're interacting with. So, like, you want to be friends, but ultimately, like, you're not. They're paying you. Like, this is a, you know, a job. And so, I mean, it sounds like she did the right thing. I think it's. I probably wouldn't have said something until she did. Honestly, I think the 45 minutes I would have been like, that's so annoying. Yeah. But I also would have been like, but it's her money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, if she's willing to waste money for me to hang out with her kid, I'm, what, $200 an hour? That's way more than a babysitter. So, like, that's stupid on her part, and I would be annoyed, but I don't know that I would have been like, I'm not. Because, again, you don't want to, like, rock the boat when you're young and you're trying.

[B]

Well, I think it's like, how much time do you have? Like, because it's like, your time. Like, you can waste my money, but don't waste my time. And so if she's sitting there being like, I'm doing this when I could be working, I have all these things

[A]

and all this other stuff. Yes.

[B]

If she had the time and it

[A]

was like two projects because you're starting off and you have enough time. Yes, it's a different.

[B]

No, and I see. I mean, it was funny when I got my first assistant, I think I put it on Facebook because I was like, very hesitant to hire someone and I was like, must be good with kids. I mean. Cause I'm seeing this and I'm like, I must be good with kids and like, okay with that and able to help. Like, it started as like, be my design intern, but also I need, like personal assistant help. Yeah, I need you. And I'm not like, you're not necessarily babysitting for them. And I've had an assistant who like fully helped with my kids. So, like, I've. I've definitely not now. I'm not the client per se, but is like the boss. Yeah, Yeah, I could see that as like a slippery slope. For sure you have someone and just knowing. I mean, my boys are older now and so awesome, but they were so cute. And I like, love them when they were little too. I mean, I love them. But yeah, like, it's just, It's. Well.

[A]

And I have to imagine as a working mom, you're just like grabbing for any life rap. Like, if, you know, you're so busy and you're like, there is this other able bodied adult where if there's something I need to do, I can go do it. But it just sounds like she was, she was uncomfortable.

[B]

And I think it sounds also like because she was so responsive in the beginning. Like, I actually think about like my assistant, like, is, she loves dogs. She has a dog. She loves her dog. And I love my assistant or associate, like Natasha. She's wonderful and she loves dogs. And so my clients just got a new puppy. I mean, if they were like, could you watch them? She would be like, yes. Okay, I'll see you, Jenny. Like, bye. You know, And I. So I do feel like it's one of those slippery things where you're like, wait, at what point is this, Is this crossing the line? Or I'm not okay with this anymore. Because also sometimes they'd be like, yeah, I would love to play with your little baby.

[A]

Well, yeah, sometimes you're like, I do want some baby time. But then you realize after about five

[B]

minutes you're like, no, I shouldn't be here.

[A]

This is not real.

[B]

Like, once it becomes like you're. It's like child care and not just like, you're the fun aunt who's like breezing in and out. Exactly.

[A]

I feel like the leaving the house aspect is when it gets like, if something happens to that child, you're now responsible.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you just have other stressful stuff to do. And so it's not like, if they

[A]

fall and, like, bust their. Like, it's just there's so many things that, like, I would be so. So I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, No, I think also, as, like,

[A]

not a mom, I think I would feel, like, very. Like, there would be, like, a lot of crushed. No.

[B]

And, you know, actually it is interesting because I have had people who have worked for me, and it's like. And I've asked them. I mean, like, I. Not that. Not that I'm that woman, but, like, it's. But. And people have been like, oh, no, I'm not great with kids. And then you're, like, perfect.

[A]

But also, I think it's like, if you're setting the precedent up front, if you're saying, like, I'm hiring someone who, like, I need this and this. That's a completely different thing. Hiring a designer and then being like, can you watch my kid? Is a little bit different.

[B]

But here's the thing. So let's, like, take it back to, like, okay, so there's the mom, and she's at fault. Like, you shouldn't have put that on. But it's also a good lesson for this woman.

[A]

1004.

[B]

Be like, the kids are cute, but, like, that's.

[A]

I'm gonna have to just be like, hi. So.

[B]

And if you get on the floor and start rolling around with them and building blocks with them, they're. And because people are, like, natural like that, it's like, dog people, too. And I'm like, I never. I have friends who adore their dogs. Like, I like dogs, but I've not ever.

[A]

You're not like a dog person per

[B]

se, you know, and so, like. But maybe I will be. I don't know. There's still hope. But I. So I'm. You know. But if I, like. I mean, Parker. Parker would be like, is that Piper? Piper?

[A]

I was like, parker, Piper.

[B]

Piper would be, like, on my lap right now. You know what I mean? Like, I mean. And so I think. Yeah. So it's like, what's your role in it? She set the boundary. You can't help with the kids going forward. You've got too much other stuff. I'm so sorry.

[A]

Yes. And I think it could just be easy. Like, I want to make sure we're using your hours wisely. Like, we gotta focus. When I'm Here. And also that's an easy thing to

[B]

make sure you're like actually billing for the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Or be like, I've got. We've got 20 minutes to get it done. Or we got. We've got an hour. But being very clear about the time. And then. And honestly, if, in a way, if you're giving a client a certain amount of time and they just want to tell you about what's going on in their lives, sometimes I'm fine with that too. Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes they do just want to do that. And if you give them a time limit and they use it that way, like, that's sort of their choice. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And I have some. That I'm friends with, that we'll get there and we'll talk for an hour before we. Before you start building.

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

So I'm not saying that it's like, oh, you're always on the clock. But I just, I think, I think it's us as a professionals, like, and I.

[A]

It's up to us to set the precedent.

[B]

To set the precedent and also to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to, like, I've said this before, like, when I was saying never be nasty. It's like, don't be mean. I'm not going to be rude to people who work for me or that I work with, like a contractor or something. If someone's rude to you, it's like, okay, how are we gonna, like, diffuse this?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

If a client. I don't really have clients that get mad at me that often, you know, like, really, that doesn't happen.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

In my business a lot. But if someone's frustrated or they're like, oh, it's taking too long, or it's like, why is this, this, this. You're like, you're allowed to. Because you're.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what you're paying me, you know, and so I feel like it's that sense too. Like the client doesn't always have to be the best behaved. And I'm not gonna be like, oh, screw you, because I want them. I know it's expensive. I know it can be frustrating, all of that. And I want them to be able to feel that they can talk to me 1000% if they're not happy. But yeah, I would. So I would say, what's her role in it? Maybe being too enthusiastic with the kids at the beginning and that and going forward, it's like really putting time limits and saying like, this is all we can do now. And maybe even being like, oh, I can't come to the house. Do you think we could do?

[A]

Yeah. I also think I found that when I set time limits when I come on site, I'm just way more respected. Like if I say I do it all the time, I'll walk on a job site and be like, I have to leave by X time.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

They're not fucking around.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like if I say I have to leave by X time, they're not gonna be like, no.

[B]

And you do because of all the side quests on the way home. Exactly.

[A]

There's so many things I have to do before I go home.

[B]

Ok. And especially when you're going up to the suburbs and you're like, I've got to be back.

[A]

And it seems like an hour and a half and you're like this is. And the contractor's 10 minutes down the road. And like it's. Yeah, yeah. I do think, I mean penance wise, I don't know that anyone even, you know, no one did anything wrong necessarily in this situation. I just think that, you know, maybe catching things earlier, which it also sounds like she says this was so early in my career. Like this would never happen now.

[B]

No. And this is the thing. And it's like you learned your lesson.

[A]

Exactly. It happened once and it never happens again.

[B]

There's so many things like that that you look back where you're and you think you've got it kind of figured out and you're like, oh, this. And now at this point I'm like, you know what? I just have to like the person. We have to go along. They have to respect me, they have this, you know, I have to respect them. And then it's just delightful. You know, it's really great. But you only learn that through having clients that it, you know. Yeah. It doesn't always feel like that.

[A]

There has to be some bumps in the road to learn how to handle them. And then you. Things end up affecting you less. At least in my experience. I mean I would be losing my mind at the beginning of my career when bad things would happen. And now bad things happen all the time. Time. And I'm just like, wow.

[B]

Well. And you know what it is? It's like our business is being, it's like solution oriented 1000.

[A]

I mean like 90% of our job is finding a solution.

[B]

Right. And it's. And so I feel like when I get and working for like two very top firms where it can be very demanding, very stressful, very like high end demanding clients, it's like what you learn is you Never just present someone with a problem. You always have to present them with the solution.

[A]

I say this all the time. The time. We don't even tell clients there's a problem until there's a solution.

[B]

Yeah. And we shouldn't. We shouldn't. And if you've got some beef with the contractor or if the electrician is.

[A]

That's not the client's issue.

[B]

The client's issue. So don't put it on them and don't come. I like when people will come to me sometimes or like, or like someone in the trade. And it's like, it's not like the wallpaper won't go up or the fabric. You're like, okay, well, like it's going to go up. You know, the fact, like, we're going to make this work, you know, like, like. So, like, let's.

[A]

Why are we complaining instead of trying to solve.

[B]

Yeah. We've got to solve it. And so it's like, because you can't, like, you can't take no as an answer. You're not just going to go to your client and be like, sorry, I can't do anything. It's nothing. And so that's not an option.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think it's just being very solution.

[A]

I think you're. And it's fun.

[B]

And that's like the.

[A]

I know. I kind of love the puzzle solving of it all.

[B]

Oh, totally. There's like a floor.

[A]

All of it. It's like, how are we going to

[B]

like, jump through these hoops?

[A]

Hoops, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Pull the rabbits out of hats. Out of hats. Out of hats.

[A]

Remember when I said designer receiving wasn't a sponsor and I just genuinely wanted to share how wonderful they are? That was true. But this episode is now officially sponsored by designer Receiving. They work exclusively with interior designers to handle everything from receiving an inventory to storage and installation. But what truly sets them apart is how much they care and go out of their way to make sure every project goes smoothly. They're organized, tech forward and people focused, building genuine relationships with the designers they work with. If you want a partner who truly has your back, Designer receiving is it. Check them [e-mail]. I have a couple more questions.

[B]

Oh, please. I would love it.

[A]

Okay. Since you started in the industry, what's a change you've been happiest to see? And then what about something you think we should get back to?

[B]

I think overall the design has, like, you look at the greats from like a Mark Hampton, Sister Parrish, Billy Baldwin, all of those. And even now, like, miles red. I, you know, I love all of them, but I feel like oak overall design has become elevated because of social media. Like, when I feel like 15 years ago, they'd be like, this new restaurant opened in Chicago. Oh, it's so great. And you'd go. And it was like, no. And it would have, like, turquoise and black flocked wallpaper, accent wall.

[A]

And they'd be like, oh, this is fabulous.

[B]

And you're like, oh, my God, this is hideous. Embarrassing. Or you're just like. And then you go to New York and you're like, this is what it should look like. And now I feel like, like you go to spaces like, it is just elevated, like, and it's. And I think this idea of maximalism in those spaces. Whereas I. I mean, obviously there's still a lot of white boxes in interiors and in office design and things. But I think businesses, restaurants are really seeing, like, that Instagramable moment.

[A]

They're finally seeing, like, the experiential side

[B]

and why that's important and why that's so important. And so I think it's. It's fun for us, and I think it's fun for us in this industry to get to benefit from all these companies that are trying to, you know, hack it and find more efficiencies and find better ways to give us greater access to, you know, and better organize us.

[A]

I just went to a restaurant. I'm not going to name it, but I just went to a restaurant in Chicago actually, with another designer, and it is, like, the hottest restaurant in Chicago right now. We went at 5pm because we couldn't, like. And that was a canceled reservation. Yes.

[B]

I don't mean we can't get in there. It's so annoying.

[A]

Yeah. And so. Well, I hope we're talking about this,

[B]

but maybe, maybe not. Okay.

[A]

But I felt the food was extremely mid. Like, it just wasn't that good. The design is amazing, and I'm 99.9% sure that's why everyone's talking about it.

[B]

No, and there is. That's annoying, too. There's a restaurant right down the street from us, and we went there probably. We've gone there, like, once every 10 years. And we just went this summer or at the end of, like, in the fall, because it's like, they've got this outdoor patio. It's got, like, twinkly lights, everything. We're like, let's just go. It's this Italian restaurant. And we went. It's like, I don't Know how you screw up spaghetti and you're just like, it's like buttered noodles. And it's not like we could not eat it. And so we're just like, okay, maybe in 10 years, but the place, try again. The place was bad.

[A]

That's what I mean. Like, you can't get a reservation. I'm like, okay. So I think like the, we need the restaurants that are actually good food to start prioritizing the experience of it all. Because there's lots of like experiential restaurants that the food isn't living up to the hype. And I feel like we're finally seeing like with hog salt, for example, we're finally seeing like the fusion of a good chef and a good design. And that's why five years later, I mean, how long has Army Aged Ale House been there? I don't even know. But like, you can't get a reservation for lunch on a Tuesday still.

[B]

No, I know, exactly.

[A]

And so like, I think you're right. People understanding the importance of your space being beautiful and Instagrammable and a space that people want to spend time in. I mean, it's like it makes your money back immediately. Yeah, it does. It's like, it's a heavy investment up front, but it's worth the. It's worth it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, what about something you think we should get back to?

[B]

I really feel like we need to get back to chintz.

[A]

Ah, love this. Okay.

[B]

And I feel like, I mean, and there are companies that do it, but I, and I think maybe it was because of my, like years ago, I remember we installed this pink sofa at a client's house. This is when I was working for someone else and came in like six months later and it was under a skylight and it was in this, the prettiest linen. And you're like, okay, it's like white now. It's like a very faded pink. And even just my mother in law will be who I help with her interiors and she'll be like, linen fades. And it doesn't. Sure, it doesn't always fade, but I feel like with all the lines coming out, like, like I don't want performance, I just want cotton, you know, and not natural materials. Maybe a nice little glaze on it. Because it's like you find a chintz chair that maybe wasn't in a window for the last 60 years and the thing.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

It's perfect.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

You know, maybe it had a plastic liner over it. And so I really do, like, I feel like we're there's so many awesome lines coming out, but I'm like, like, where. Just the linen sometimes. And I love. Listen, I use linen all the time. I just ordered it, but it's like, I just wish we could kind of get back to some, like a. Just nice quilted.

[A]

There's a lot of the same things. Meaning that, like, most brands have mohair solids, linen solids, like, and we don't need 50 different versions of that. Right. I would love for people to start producing things that are like, not just this, like, a slightly different version of what another brand is doing. We need, like, a house to. Yeah. Transition. And these crazy florals and, like, intense. Like, I think that's sort of what is missing right now.

[B]

Yeah. And again, it doesn't need to be glazed, but just something with lots of color and pattern and, you know, like, what is it? Jaun Monroe, I think, has, like, beautiful color changing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

My friends at Madcap Cottage, they've got awesome, like, totally old school anyway. I just love, like, a good floral chance.

[A]

I think that's great.

[B]

We need to get back to that and then. And yeah, I just. I like all the traditional antique stuff, but I think, you know, there are

[A]

a lot of us out there, and that's, I think, definitely coming back with, like, the grand millennial of it all.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Your designs feel so full of life with color and pattern. As we were just talking about, how do you handle clients who are more apprehensive to trust you and the vision in the beginning, or are they just not hiring you? Meaning, like, they trust you from the beginning?

[B]

Yeah, I think kind of at this point, people do. The people I'm working with do kind of trust me. And I do think it is like a layer. Layering process. Like, my design. I wouldn't necessarily say, oh, my gosh, actually, I've got this one project, and she wants it to be colorful. I mean, this place is going to be colorful. This bedroom, we're putting, like, lattice on the ceiling. I was just there. I think you just have to kind of come in with confidence and be willing to pivot, you know, I mean, there's like, you know, it's like the little graveyard of schemes that we love, you know, and that'll kill your darlings. Well, they ever come to fruition? Maybe, but maybe not. I mean, I think, like, our job is to interpret our clients taste and make it their own. And I think, like, I. If someone doesn't go for what I want, it's like, okay, well, we're gonna compromise a little bit, you know, of course. And we can always do that later or add that later.

[A]

But I found that I find this so interesting that clients will regret the choices they made in the beginning, because they're making much safer choices in the beginning than they are at the end. Because in the beginning they're like, just more conservative. At least in my experience. They don't quite trust you as much yet. It may also be because I'm younger, like young in my career, but then later on they'll be like, why did I say I wanted that to be white? I wanted it to be a color now that I understand where we were going with it. Right. And so it's just I'm trying to figure out how to like, avoid that front part. Like, avoid the part.

[B]

And oh my gosh, now I'm like thinking about stuff like early in my career too, where like they see the bar is painted blue and they're like, oh my God. But you're like, no, but you're not seeing it.

[A]

Context, vision of everything.

[B]

Like the grass cloth isn't up, like all this stuff. And so I think it's also like, really shoot for the moon because you don't know what people are going to spend money on.

[A]

I think that's so true.

[B]

And so I feel like even this project, I mean, we're putting lattice on their ceiling in their bedroom. Like, I love you. You know, we're upholstering the walls. Like, it's going to be incredible. I'm so excited that they want to do this, but they wouldn't do this if we hadn't shown it to them. If I hadn't shown it to them. So I think it's really like you

[A]

had like pre edited yourself. May want to pay for it. Maybe they don't want it. Blah, blah. I do that to myself a lot.

[B]

Oh, completely. And so I think it's going in and then just seeing because it's just surprising what people do.

[A]

I completely agree with that. Sometimes I'll be like, wait, really? You're going to like, you're going to pay for this, but not.

[B]

But then you're going to complain about this.

[A]

It's always strange. But everyone has their priorities.

[B]

No. And it's like their money.

[A]

So you're like, let's. I mean, listen, I'm renovating my house and one of my priorities is a double, like dishwasher drawers. Everyone is like, what? Okay, why are you spending extra fifteen hundred dollars on dishwasher drawers?

[B]

Yeah, well, it makes you Happy Because

[A]

I have, like, a little bit of ocd, and I want my animal dishes in one dishwasher and my people dishes in another dishwasher. Okay, yeah, that makes sense, like, from a cleanliness perspective. But, like, that doesn't really make sense to a lot of other people, so it's like, they're. I'm a designer, and I'm still doing those things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, that's ultimately what our clients are hiring us for.

[B]

Well. And it's kind of like the Diet Coke with the pizza. Like, you're like, why are you having the Diet Coke? You're like, because then I couldn't eat the pizza. Like, this makes sense to me.

[A]

Like, you can't have everything, but you can't. If you pull back, that would be

[B]

crazy to have a regular Coke with the pizza. Pizza. I mean, come on, guys. But Diet Coke. Yeah. Now I loved the Diet Coke. Is having this resurgence, by the way.

[A]

Oh, my God. I mean, the fridge. Cigarette.

[B]

People are smoking cigarettes.

[A]

You know, listen, I. I don't know. I didn't tell my mom this. She's gonna be sad about this, but. Or upset about this, but we smoked Vogues when we were in Paris, Those little skinny cigarettes. Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, if I could buy folks in the United States, I would have a problem. Are they the.

[B]

Oh, like, are those, like.

[A]

They're literally called Vogues. They have, like, a woman on the box, and it says, like. Like, almost like the logo for the old.

[B]

I can kind of picture it.

[A]

Yeah. It's white with, like, a black writing, and they're super long and skinny, and they, like, don't hit the back of your throat like a standard syrup. And it feels very, like, classy because they're so long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we smoked them at the Eiffel Tower at midnight, and. Which is such a fun memory. But now I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. So it's good they don't exist here because there would be another vice to add to the list.

[B]

To add to the list. Yeah, exactly. Now we're trying to cut out the vices so we can just really indulge in the ones that we really, really want.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, last question. You're involved in the estate sale world. Do you have any tips for designers who are interested in going to estate sales?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think for everyone. Like, I have been going, like I said earlier, like. Like, just reflecting on my own upbringing. Like, I've always loved shopping. Like, I would go do errands with My dad, I would go shopping with my grandmother. I would just say. And it. It's funny because actually a couple years ago, someone reached out to me and they were like, well, I've done like 90% of my house, but like. Cause I would post about them on Instagram. They're just like, I just want the finishing things from the estate sales. And I'm like. I'm like, no, no, no, that's not what.

[A]

Like, this is.

[B]

This is just something I really do for fun. This is with all my free time. Now that I'm not your side quest. Yeah, yeah. Now that I'm not like hungover. It's like, we've got all this. You get all this free time back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I love going to them. I post about them a lot. And I think it's just. You don't need to buy something. I would say always be respectful. Bring a tape measure. It's really fun to see the house.

[A]

So fun.

[B]

It's just so fun to see the house.

[A]

And they're almost always characters that are. That are having the estate. So you learn a lot about maybe their mother who died or in my experience, they always want to chit chat about the person that you're buying the thing. Like the. Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

And especially if the person's there.

[A]

But Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the more you go to them, the more like. You know what I would say? I would say take lots of pictures of things that you like, don't feel you have to buy stuff. You have to like edit yourself, kind of check yourself so you don't end

[A]

up with a bunch of crap.

[B]

A bunch of crap or stuff you don't. Well, I'm not gonna say stuff you don't have space for because that's the problem. We are. I'm not one to tell anyone to do that. I do think taking pictures is a good thing because then. And even when you go to antique stores. And it's actually funny. Cause I'll go to a store and like this design store up in Winnetka. And I remember it was like five years later, I was looking for sconces and I remembered seeing it. They gave me a tour of their, like the bowels where they had all the overflow. And I was like, do you still have those tall sconces?

[A]

And they did.

[B]

And they sold them to me. And so it's just like take pictures.

[A]

It's like a brain archive.

[B]

Yeah. And just don't feel like you have to buy something. And if you see Something that you really like, get it, but do it, you know, do it thoughtfully. I, I don't buy a ton of big, big pieces that I don't have space for, but actually I, I could do that too. So, like, what am I talking about? No, I. And, and don't, like, manage your expectations. Like, you're not going to get. I'm not going to tell a client that, like, oh, we're gonna like. And people will say, like, oh, if you find it at an estate sale, great. But, like, often the good stuff has already been taken.

[A]

The valuable things are often either being sold off or the kids have them,

[B]

or the kids have them or whatever, someone else. But know if you see it, you know, or. Or maybe this. If you see something that you want. Actually, this just happened with a friend of mine. Just snag it. Like, win. Like, if you want a rug, take the ticket.

[A]

Yes. And then, oh, definitely do that.

[B]

Take the ticket and walk around. Because there's nothing worse than seeing someone walk out with something that you were

[A]

just looking at and feeling.

[B]

Yeah, that's like the counter, right? The agony and the ecstasy of the estate sale. Like, it's a. It's a real thing.

[A]

I will say often when I go to estate sales, if I walk in and I'm like, I know I'm about to hit the lot. I get a big basket. They're always selling baskets at estate sales. And I put everything in the basket and then I ask the person to hold it for me, and then I add to my basket the whole way. But, like, people will realize you're a designer at a certain point. They'll be watching you pick things up. And at least it happens to me. And then I'll see it. Like, I'll pick something up, put it down, and then immediately.

[B]

No, it's the law of attraction, too. It's like you give something attention and

[A]

then someone else is like, oh, well, if they like it. Like, even if they don't know I'm a designer, just another person, they're like, oh, that's interesting. So I do think it's. I think that's a great advice. And be prepared to wait in line.

[B]

And be prepared to wait in line. And also. And I would also say, don't sleep on the last day. Like, if the only time you can go is the last hour of the last day. I have found great things interesting. Like, I'm kind of off trend, you know, My son, my older son was really into the French Revolution. Now he's really into the Chicago Bears and, like, football, but. And the French Revolution. So I started this, like, shrine to Napoleon for him. But I went, last day of an estate sale. Like, last five minutes. People are walking out there like there's nothing left. There was, like, a Napoleon and Josephine lamps that I got for, I mean, 60 bucks. I'm like, so don't. You know. And it's still fun to see the house for sure then. Actually even saying this because I have so many friends who are in the industry of the estate sales. Just never be nasty. Like, if it's not. If they've got a price, you could certainly ask them if they can do better, and maybe you'll get a better price on the last day if it's still there.

[A]

But.

[B]

And if they won't, then that's fine. Then don't take it. But I do feel it's like you're supporting. Not only it's good for the environment,

[A]

we're, like, reusing things, not throwing things away. Exactly.

[B]

And then these people are running a business, too. So I feel like people can be nasty just in general. And so if you just be kind and if someone's like, no, I'm sorry, this is the price, it might be cheaper tomorrow. And be like, okay, like, just don't be.

[A]

You can be. Don't be mad about it. I know. I see it a lot at estate sales. I go to, like, because, you know, sometimes the staff has been there for, like, 10 hours. Like, you're standing there for a long time saying the same thing over and over and over again. You'd get a little annoyed, too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if they're, you know, a little bit shorter. I mean, I've seen people whip around and just be like. And it's like, it's just not. It's not that serious.

[B]

And you don't have to buy anything.

[A]

Just not that serious.

[B]

Like, you don't have to buy anything.

[A]

But if it's.

[B]

Or if it doesn't feel right, it's fine. But just don't eat.

[A]

I just don't try and burn energy. There's this, like. Like, desperate energy in the line of an estate sale of, like, there are people in before me. They are getting the better things. So I feel like sometimes when you, like, hit the door, people just go a little crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, it's not that serious. It's. If you. If you miss out on the vase,

[B]

like, it's going to be a.

[A]

Okay. It's sad. Like, it's gonna be okay.

[B]

Well, and I also do Feel like in Chicago and maybe like, I. I don't know what's happening in Atlanta or Texas. My gosh. I mean, then it would be like all of us, like, decorators lined up. But you're kind of looking at the line sometimes, and it's like, we're not here for the same reason. No, we are not here. And then sometimes if you see a friend, you're like, okay. We're like, okay, guys, get in there. Yeah, Spread out. Oh, my gosh. Actually, this happened. So this guy was having these tent sales in Lake Forest. So I film at these estate sales, too. I just started doing this with a friend of mine, and sometimes my associate does it too. And it's fun to kind promote them and demystify and be like, it's not creepy. It's great. Yeah. But we. So now our rules. We have to scan first, because we got to the very end of this tent, and there were all the clothes, and we found all these old Ralph Lauren sweaters with the teddy bear with this Indian, blah, blah, blah. And we were like, oh, my gosh. And this guy was there, and he was like, oh, that's my pile. And we were like, what? No, like, no, no, but wait. But wait.

[A]

And he was like, you guys were

[B]

here before we were. And I was like, oh,

[A]

spent too much time in the beginning. I did.

[B]

I did. But I was so excited. Cause I'd found that, you know, those frog planters, those fragrances. I found like three of them.

[A]

So I was like, but you still made out.

[B]

It was okay. I got my little frog planters. But then I was like, oh, but the vintage ran foreign, like, haunt me. I can't believe I'm at the end.

[A]

You wouldn't have known it was there unless you had seen it. It's like, it hurts more to know it was there.

[B]

It was there just sitting.

[A]

And we could have gone there before

[B]

this guy came in.

[A]

My gosh.

[B]

Yeah. So again, the agony. The ex.

[A]

I know, I know, but it's all good. Okay, so we're recommending go to more estate sales. Also. I feel like this is what everybody knows, but the most basic information is estatesales.net that is how you find estate sales. Yes.

[B]

And they start there. Yeah, start there. Download the app, and they've got, like a little map, and so I'll do it. Also, when I'm traveling, sometimes it's.

[A]

That's so smart.

[B]

Just in, like, what am I buying? I mean, sometimes I might buy, like, a little trinket, but even if I don't I don't know.

[A]

I like, that's inspiration from the house, the architecture. Yeah. I mean, it's. You kind of get to be of Voyer.

[B]

Yeah, you get to be a Voyer, and you get. I don't know. It's a. It's definitely a fun thing to do if you're traveling to see if there any estate sales.

[A]

I'm going to start doing that.

[B]

Or if there any stores. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Our tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. What's something that made you feel recently?

[B]

Okay. Something that made me feel. God, like you're asking me to remember something.

[A]

I feel like your boys probably make you feel.

[B]

You know what? It is true. It is true. My son is home, and my son's been home. He's actually visiting friends right now. And it's. It's so awesome just watching them get older and become a little more independent and then the way that they interact together, and it's not just them, like, fighting.

[A]

So I would say yeah.

[B]

Being with. Having my, like, family all in one place is just something I love. And just. And just having my family close also, like, I mean, I love seeing your

[A]

mom, Like, I know it's really special. I. I wish my family were closer. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like it's the. Our relationships and friendships are like, my favorite thing. And, like, it just. I love my family and I love my friends, and I love, like, my clients. And so surrounding yourself with more.

[A]

The good people.

[B]

The good people. And also not. Not letting the chaos in the world, like, damper that, like, I want to be a source of light and happiness and joy, and I do feel like there could be so much kind of negativity put out there, and I'm like, I don't. I just want to put out positivity and you know what? And, like, spread beauty, spread joy, because that's something, like, I find so much delight in the world, and I feel like it's. You know what? I know things can be bad, but you know what? I think it's also never been better. And so I. I just want to. But see, here's the Pollyanna. I'm like, I feel like the world. Better place, more beautiful, but I do.

[A]

I really do. I think that's lovely.

[B]

And I think it's. Yeah. And it's.

[A]

I just. Yeah. I mean, that's why you're a designer.

[B]

That's why I'm a designer.

[A]

Make the world a better place.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

It's literally brain surgery. If you guys didn't know and support

[B]

local businesses, all of them.

[A]

Okay, actually, last question for you. Where can we find you? Social website, all of that.

[B]

Okay, so my website is Jennifer Brown dot com. And it's funny, my friend, years ago, was like, you need to get a website. And I got Jenny Brown Designs. And then I reached out to Jenny Brown dot com, whoever owned it, and we were like, I get asked this question a million times a day. A million times a day. Like, basically, you can't afford it. And then, like, five years later, they were like, are you still interested in the website?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was like, would you. Do you want. For 500? And I was like, I'll give you like, 4.99 or something. Or 450. And it was like 4.95. I'm like, sold. So Jenny Brown dot com. It hasn't been updated in a while. We need to get photographed. We're working on it, but that's fine. My Instagram is Jenny Brown Designs. I'm based in Chicago. Call me, text me, DM me. Yeah.

[A]

Amazing. Yeah.

[B]

And you can probably find me at an estate sale.

[A]

I was gonna say look out for. At an estate sale.

[B]

Maybe the merchandise. Smart. Yeah.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you so much for being on.

[B]

This is so fun.

[A]

I had the best time. Thank you all for listening. And until next week, peace. Peace be with you. Bye.