I Confess... My Boss Was on America's Most Wanted

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Confess... My Boss Was on America's Most Wanted"

Podcast: Confessions of an Interior Designer
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Kelly Lam (Editorial Director and Co-Principal of Rue Magazine)
Date: March 4, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the unpredictable, sometimes shocking realities hidden behind the luxury interior design world. Host Caroline Turner welcomes Kelly Lam, editorial director of Rue Magazine, to discuss Kelly's professional journey, personal resilience after losing her home in a fire, industry behind-the-scenes tales, the responsibilities of publishing, and to react to two truly wild listener confessions—including the titular story about a contractor who landed on "America’s Most Wanted."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal & Professional Introductions

Timestamps: [00:04–03:00]

• Caroline reflects on how Kelly gave her a career break by publishing her first home, which left a lasting impact.
• Kelly reminisces about early days at Rue Magazine, her path from unpaid intern in 2012 to co-owner, and transitioning Rue from a digital mag to a print publication—a decision that felt risky at the time.
  • "I sold my car...it was an unpaid internship, but I was so excited and so proud." – Kelly [04:05]
  • "It was a lot. It was very risky. I had never made very much money in this world at all..." – Kelly [05:45]
• The conversation highlights the risks and rewards of investing in print media when digital dominates.

2. Rue Magazine’s Editorial Philosophy

Timestamps: [06:10–09:00]

• Rue's focus: showcasing varied designers and styles, prioritizing inclusivity, and the feeling of “home.”
• Pressures from readers vs. designers: While some readers want exhaustive sourcing, designers often wish to maintain confidentiality.
• Kelly’s commitment: Each Rue issue should let anyone see themselves represented, regardless of style or geography.
  • "Every issue, no matter who picks it up, they'll see themselves represented." – Kelly [07:36]

3. Early Influences & Love for Publishing

Timestamps: [09:00–13:40]

• Both reminisce about 90s/00s media dreams and silly magazine publishing video games that inspired career ambitions.
  • "The game was...a receptionist desk at Teen magazine—you'd create your own layout with stock images of mascara..." – Kelly [11:41]
• Kelly details her string of summer programs and her natural pull toward writing as creative expression.

4. Vices, Bravo TV, and Escapism

Timestamps: [14:52–18:18]

• The guests discuss guilt-free pleasures—specifically Bravo reality shows and why escapist TV isn’t a harmful vice, but a needed de-stressor, even for smart, successful women.
  • "It’s actually just a true joy...it’s like you’re getting a sociology degree." – Caroline [16:07]
  • Commentary on how reality TV intersects with contemporary culture and business.

5. Listener Confession 1: "My Boss Was on America's Most Wanted"

Timestamps: [19:11–32:43]

Summary of the confession:

• A designer worked for a GC (General Contractor) who revealed he had a felony and had been listed on "America’s Most Wanted" for unlicensed contracting.
• Post-employment, she learned through his ex-girlfriend and former female employees about multiple instances of sexual assault and workplace misconduct.
• The contractor’s shady business practices led to lawsuits, unpaid subs, massive financial fraud, and significant client loss—yet he faced minimal consequences.

Discussion Highlights:

• Caroline and Kelly’s shock at the brazenness and scope of his fraud and predatory behavior.
  • "It is frankly an accomplishment to be on America's Most Wanted as a contractor." – Caroline [25:43]
  • "I think his penance is that he needs to go to jail for life. Or like the electric chair." – Caroline [26:41]
• The pair reflect on the vulnerability of women in male-dominated construction spaces, the trauma and power imbalance faced by victims, and how these “bad apples” undermine trust in the whole industry.
  • "As a woman…you just don’t think when you’re going to work for some random contractor that your life is going to be flipped upside down." – Caroline [28:52]
  • "That is so scary. But again, if he’s listening…we’re fine." – Kelly [28:27]
• Frustration over lack of legal consequences for abusers—especially regarding gendered violence vs. financial crimes.
• Penances: For the confessor—only female bosses from now on; for the contractor—actual prison time.

6. Listener Confession 2: "The Great Dog Escape"

Timestamps: [34:38–43:37]

Summary of the confession:

• During a client photo shoot, a black lab slipped out an open door, sprinting across yards and nearly into traffic. The design team (half barefoot) chased him until a neighbor and a bag of treats finally lured him back.
• The team debated if they should confess, ultimately telling the homeowners—who were gracious. The “punishment” was post-shoot margaritas.

Discussion Highlights:

• Both hosts relate to the panic of a pet escape, agree it’s only funny in hindsight, and swap personal stories of chaotic animal moments.
  • "That dog is…dogs for the streets. He is. Yeah. He’s outside right now." – Kelly [39:18]
  • "Penance, I feel maybe the dog needs penance. I feel like he's the real perpetrator." – Caroline [42:14]
• Practical discussion of best practices for managing client pets during home shoots.
• Penances: The dog gets extra treats and perhaps an Apple AirTag; the designers earned their drinks.

7. Surviving and Rebuilding After a House Fire

Timestamps: [43:37–62:50]

• Kelly shares the profound loss of her home in the Altadena fires of January 2025 (and how her entire neighborhood—thought to be “fire safe”—was devastated).
  • "We evacuated. We grabbed Leonard, God bless him, and a few pieces of art...I like left wearing a Spice Girls t-shirt. And that was my only t-shirt." – Kelly [44:27]
  • "Not just our own loss, but this community...the whole community losing everything." – Caroline [46:45]
• Unexpected realities: mortgage payments persist despite total loss, nearly everyone is underinsured for complete rebuilds, even with “great insurance.”
• Logistical nightmare: Insurance requires a literal inventory of every possession, down to “Q-tips and how full the box was.”
  • "If we had just walked through and filmed a video...and narrated it...it would have saved so much trouble." – Kelly [56:01]
• The emotional toll: cycling optimism and grief, temporary relocation (to Idaho), rebuilding on the same lot, balancing gratitude with loss, and the vital importance of neighborhood community.
  • "There were things I went to grab and I was like, 'Oh, you're being crazy...' I never allowed myself to [think it would all be gone]." – Kelly [58:38]
  • "Get to know your neighbors...that really has been the most important part." – Kelly [59:07]
• Advice for homeowners: Know your insurance—make sure coverage matches actual rebuild costs, record home inventories, have a “grab list” for evacuation.

8. Publishing, Pitching, and Why Showcasing Young Talent Matters

Timestamps: [64:43–71:10]

• Kelly’s rationale for championing up-and-coming designers: early work is often more adventurous and shows distinctive personality before success flattens differences.
  • "Young talent is often the most interesting...the early projects tend to show the point of view more genuinely." – Kelly [64:55]
• Candid tips on pitching to publications: seasonality matters (e.g., don’t pitch autumnal photos for a spring issue), finished photos preferred, transparency on print vs. digital aspirations is appreciated.
  • "Every issue of the magazine I think of as a puzzle...sometimes I’ve said no to incredible work because we’re not the right outlet at the moment." – Kelly [68:31]
  • "Anything that's less emails is always helpful for all of us, for every industry, for everyone." – Kelly [71:10]

9. The Joy of Print Media

Timestamps: [72:44–74:00]

• Kelly’s favorite part of her job: seeing (and seeing other people see) her magazine on newsstands, and the profound satisfaction of knowing her curation helps launch careers.
  • "Especially if it's in print, when someone films themselves going to get it at the newsstand, I'm like—wait, I made that in there." – Kelly [73:34]
  • "It's a real celebration of creativity and the love of home." – Kelly [74:49]

10. What’s Made You Feel Recently?

Timestamps: [75:47–77:10]

• Kelly answers with: “The Olympics,” moved by the power of human stories, hard work, and seeing people realize dreams.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:45] Kelly: "It was very risky...as long as I just...if I can guarantee I get what I've put in back, then let's just try it."
• [07:36] Kelly: "Every issue, no matter who picks it up, they'll see themselves represented."
• [16:07] Caroline: "My smartest friends watch Bravo because...it's like you're getting a sociology degree."
• [25:43] Caroline: "It is frankly an accomplishment to be on America's Most Wanted as a contractor."
• [26:41] Caroline: "I think his penance is that he needs to go to jail for life. Or like, the electric chair."
• [58:38] Kelly: "There were things that I looked at that I went to grab and I was like, 'Oh, you're being crazy. It'll be safer in the house than whatever.'"
• [59:07] Kelly: "Get to know your neighbors. People did die in their homes in Altadena because help just wasn't coming for them."
• [64:55] Kelly: "Young talent is often the most interesting...early projects tend to show the point of view a little bit more genuinely."
• [73:34] Kelly: "Especially if it's in print, when someone films themselves going to get it at the newsstand, I'm like, wait, I made that in there."

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Important Timestamps

• Introductions & Rue Magazine Story: [00:04–07:03]
• Publishing Industry Real Talk: [07:05–13:40]
• Lighthearted Confession/Bravo TV Chat: [14:52–19:11]
• Confession 1: Contractor on America's Most Wanted: [19:11–32:43]
• Confession 2: The Great Dog Escape: [34:38–43:37]
• Surviving/Rebuilding after a Fire: [43:37–62:50]
• Pitching, Young Talent & Publishing Tips: [64:43–71:10]
• Favorite Part of the Job: [72:44–74:49]
• Emotional Question / Recent “Feel”: [75:47–77:10]

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Tone & Style

Candid, humorous, and self-aware, with a strong undercurrent of empathy and resilience—never glossing over industry challenges nor personal hardships, while always finding some light (and plenty of wit) in the darkness.

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Where to Find Kelly & Rue Magazine

• Instagram: @kellylam_ | @ruemagazine
• Website: ruemag.com
• Print: Newsstands across the US & Canada—Whole Foods, Barnes & Noble, Target, CVS, and other magazine purveyors.

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For more outrageous confessions, designer therapy, and the realities behind the pretty pictures, tune in next week!

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Kelly Lam, editorial director and co principal of Rue magazine. A leading voice in approachable, beautifully curated interior design. For over a decade, Kelly has helped shape Rue's signature voice and is also the author of Home with Style for Everyone, a guide packed with expert tips, designer insights, and hundreds of stunning interiors to help readers create spaces they truly love. Welcome to Confessions. Thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Oh, I'm so happy to be here. I feel like I should. My alarm clock should just be you reading my bio to, like, hype me up every day.

[A]

Listen, I will send you the audio recording. You can put it on your hatch. I'm sure that will help you wake up. I love it. Okay, well, I sort of like to talk about, if I know the guest initially, how we know each other, and we'll talk about this a little bit more later in the episode. But I just want to acknowledge you're the one who I really credit with giving me, like, my true start in the industry. Like, you published my home when I was so young, the business was so new, and it was not like a luxury home like you think about it, like you see in a lot of design magazines. And so I have. I mean, I have such a soft spot for you just in general, but, like, it really. I'll never forget it. So I can't thank you enough.

[B]

I love to hear that because I remember getting that submission, and it's not often that I say, like, an immediate yes. I usually have to mull over things, and that was one that I knew would really resonate with our readers and with our audience. And it was so I still get feedback on it. And a fun fact. My bro and his wife painted their kitchen cabinets the same color from that.

[A]

I am obsessed with that. That's amazing.

[B]

So it's very much still influencing people.

[A]

That's really. I mean, all I could ever want. It's funny, though, because I just sold the house this weekend, so it is insanely strange timing that we're talking to each other right now, because I've been in there for over five years, and, yeah, I sold it literally this weekend, so it was end of an era. But she, you know, I feel like I grew up in that, in that condo. So I will never be able to thank you enough?

[B]

Very happy. For whoever gets to continue.

[A]

Yes, yes, me too. Her best friend lives across the street, so it's like the cutest thing ever that she's moving in the dream. It makes me so happy, so sweet. Okay, enough about me. Sorry. I want to know how you got here.

[B]

Loaded question.

[A]

Typically, I mean, like, in life, how did you get to this point? Point where you're doing what you're doing? I know it is a very loaded question for you right now.

[B]

Well, I actually. So I started at Rue in 2012. I was not the founder of the company. It was about two years old when I joined, and I was living in San Francisco. And the blog scene in 2012 was very happening. And so I had a small fashion blog, which is really kind of a laugh to look back at because now I'm. I don't identify as much, but I was going to a lot of events and I was having a really hard time. I had just moved to the city and I was having a hard time finding work. And so Rue posted that they were looking for an intern, the founder, Crystal Palacek posted. And I just went for it. And I sold my car to be able to afford. Well, I didn't need it and the city. But yeah, it wasn't. It was an unpaid internship, which I used to kind of keep,

[A]

unfortunately.

[B]

And I. But I also was so excited and so proud, and then it kind of just evolved. And so as Krystal stepped away, she now is this amazing interior designer. And that was kind of where her passion was taking her. And mine was always editorial. So it was kind of this sliding scale. As she moved away, I kind of was annoyingly there to be like, I'll do it.

[A]

I can handle it. No problem. I can do it.

[B]

So I helped launch. It had been a digital magazine format that you would, like, read on your iPad. And so I helped launch the daily content website that you see now and then stuck with it for many years. And in 2020 or 2021, my now business partner approached to buy it from the previous owner. And so I had been running all of the editorial. And he said, I see a decision to take this to print, which is so backwards, because so much media.

[A]

Yes, it's so backwards. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And he has a print magazine called Naturally Danny Seal that's kind of in the green world, eco friendly living and all of that. And he thought there was just room to do more with Ru. And he said I could either work with him or I could buy in. And I love Danny very much, but I did not want him as a boss. So we now are co owners and publish a quarterly print magazine.

[A]

Wow. What a leap that was. I'm sure, for you to take to, you know, buy into a business that is already taking sort of a risky step, obviously a very smart step. I mean, I love the print magazine that you guys put out, but it had to have felt risky at the time.

[B]

It was a lot. It was very risky. I had never made very much money in this world at all. And so it was a lot of conversations with my husband of, if I can at least earn back my investment, then it was, it will be worth it. And so that was the risk. As long as I just. If I can guarantee get what I've put in back, then let's just try it, you'll be okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it has been so well received. People, I think, are craving the tactile feel of print. And it continues to grow, and it's really been wonderful. I'm glad, thank goodness I took the risk because, you know, I'm not sure. The media landscape keeps changing. And we found this really nice pocket.

[A]

I do think that's what it feels like is this pocket of design lovers and designers in their own right who want to see beautiful design. They ultimately don't really care who it's attached to. And I think that's a lot of what publishing is right now is a lot of, like, the person who lives in the home or the name attached. But I love the. You focus on interiors that resonate with you and you think will resonate with readers. It comes across much more like design focused, in my opinion.

[B]

Oh, good. That's kind of the. The goal is, you know, I want designers to feel like they have a home to show their work and why they love what they do. And so I never. Sometimes I get really angry emails from readers who want every single source in the home. And some designers aren't comfortable. You know, not every designer is willing to share their sources and would never require that if that's not what they're comfortable with. I mean, I have to have something to put there.

[A]

Got to be at least a bit.

[B]

Yeah, but, you know, really telling the designer story and when it makes sense, telling the story of who lives there and how they live in the home and that feeling of home. And the other really important thing that has always been the case is that every issue, no matter who picks it up, they'll see themselves represented. So whether that's style, location, there's something I really try to make sure that there's something for everyone instead of, oh, it's a cute magazine, but I don't. None of that's really my thing.

[A]

It doesn't apply to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I think you've accomplished it. In preparation for this interview, I was looking back at the magazine that has my home in it, and you did a story on Detroit being the Paris of the Midwest, and I thought that was so. I had forgotten that that was in the same issue, but it's so tr. Detroit is even hotter now. But at the time, it was, like, really starting to. And my point is that it seems like you guys have your finger on the pulse in many ways that matter to people who love design. And, like, you can feel that when you read your magazine, which is, I think, what we all want.

[B]

Oh, good. Well, that's. As long as I'm do. That's like, the feedback that I'm like, okay, we're on the right path. Keep.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

Keep going.

[A]

Definitely. Can I ask, how did you decide you wanted to go into publishing in general? Like, is that something you knew from when you were young? Were you a writer from the time you were young? Give me a little bit of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Background, if you don't mind.

[B]

I. Well, my parents split when I was really young, and so that meant summers I got signed up for, like, every community class. So, like, tile painting, acting like my dad is just dropping me off.

[A]

Jill, of all trades, you have it all.

[B]

Yeah, but writing was the one that really felt not even easy, but just natural because it's certainly not easy. Much. Like, I'm sure you feel design, that everything has its challenges, but it felt. It just was almost more effortless to like, get really lost in that creativity. And so that was kind of the lead in. And that was actually why I ever had a blog in the first place. I worked in corporate E commerce world. I hated my life. I worked directly for the CEO and I just blogged from my cubicle. And if he hears it, that's what I was up to. I just. It was a way. And I remember I was still in college when I started the blog. And I remember I see all these reels and tiktoks now about, like, it's okay to be cringe and just put yourself out there. And I remember, like, going out to the bars and hearing people, like, talk behind my back, like, oh, that's that girl with that blog. Like, who does she think she is? All I wanted to do was write. It's not like I really wanted to take photos of Myself, I just wanted this outlet. And so that was the lead in. And I really feel once I started writing about home, then it was like, oh, this is actually the passion. And home has played such a big role in my own life and my own creativity that it's really was kind of a natural transition. And then it's also like 90 every 90s rom com. The main character was like working at a magazine.

[A]

Yes, she was. Yes, she was. I wanted to work for Cosmo so badly. Like it's in my journal from when I was like 13 of like, I need to work for Cosmo all tonight. Like it's. Which is so funny now. But yeah, I mean it was the it girl job. The it girl job.

[B]

I had this computer game called Teen Digital Diva. Wait, and you made.

[A]

I also played one. Are you that like would like woke me up like a sleeper cell agent like that? I haven't heard that in so long. Oh my God.

[B]

I got grounded. My mom grounded me because I used up all the printer ink.

[A]

Listen, you were doing really important business.

[B]

Yeah. So the game for people who did not resonate with. It's a compute game that when you signed on it was like a receptionist desk at Teen magazine. And like this really cute computer was like right this way. And then you could create your own layout with stock images of mascara. Yes. I didn't even own mascara. And I was like, it's plumping. I had no clue. I have never met anyone that knows what it is. My God.

[A]

Well. And of course they called it like the beauty closet on the hills and stuff. So it always be like, gotta go stock my beauty closet. It like I was really into it.

[B]

Yes. It was so good. It would just slow down the computer. I'm pretty sure our computer, our family computer was fighting for life Combust. I know.

[A]

Our one computer in the sun room. I'd be in there and my mom's like, what are you doing? I'm so busy.

[B]

Don't talk to me. I'm running a media empire.

[A]

CEO of a magazine.

[B]

Okay. So that is so amazing.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

I've like looked for it on ebay, but obviously there's no way.

[A]

Like it's also. There's one that's. God, I can never remember the name, but it had like a pink or a green and purple controller. And it was like something about girls life or something. And that was like after the publishing game and I played that. And you would like dress yourself. I don't. I can't remember. Of course. But those games I feel like really like raised me like I was. They were like putting us into specific career paths because we were like, is so fun.

[B]

I'm pretty sure. I mean, I didn't but like my interview with Crystal, I was like, well, I have a long history in public.

[A]

Here are my references.

[B]

I just called my mom and was like, can you mail that magazine?

[A]

No, I'm obsessed. That's so funny. Funny. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right? Then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Doubt it. Before we get into some confessions, what's advice you have?

[B]

I was thinking about this and my answer is so annoying. I actually don't think anything is really advice because I understand times are tough.

[A]

Yes, they are.

[B]

It's a really wild time. And so I used to think that I like love Bravo. I love Andy Cohen. Any housewife. I need to see women like screaming at each other. And I used to think that that was a vice or a bad habit and it's actually just a true joy.

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

It's relaxing and then like with wine or an aperol spritz. Perfect. And then maybe going on Reddit and reading about it after. Even better.

[A]

You mean doing research?

[B]

I've shifted my perspective on like the feeling because it's so hard. And especially as women were always beating each other. Beating each other up. Beating as women, we're always beating ourselves. The housewives are beating each other up.

[A]

Yeah, they are. Sometimes physically

[B]

we're beating ourselves up and it's so easy to be like, I need to eat healthier, I need to exercise more. I need to get more sleep. I need to watch less tv. And it's like, well, I wonder if you could just. Do you need to be more boring?

[A]

Like, I don't ultimately, what is. And who says, I need to do this more? I need to do this more. Like, I don't know. I personally think that Bravo, like, some of the smartest women I know watch Bravo. My smartest friends watch Bravo because they find it. So it's like you're getting a sociology degree. Like, you are watching behavior, and it's. I mean, it changes the way you think about humanity, which sounds very intense. But, like, some experiences that are. Have happened on Bravo, I feel like, have shaped the culture. I mean, like, scandal, like, rocked the country. Like, it's, it's bigger than, Than, like, some naysayers want to believe that it is.

[B]

Yeah. It's just escapism. And I think there are much worse ways that you could.

[A]

Way worse.

[B]

Seek out that feeling. Way worse.

[A]

I always tell my mom I could be smoking crack. And, like, it's. I'm just watching Bravo. It's fine.

[B]

Just watching Bravo. Yeah. So for sure. And we've realized my husband is now involved because he was doing, like, I'd watch and he'd be like, who is that? It actually was Yolanda Hadid. And he couldn't. He walked past and he couldn't tell if she was 20 or 70. And he was like, who is that?

[A]

Honestly, that's a very.

[B]

Yeah. And so then he started like, what? And now he's. He doesn't watch all of them. But we love Beverly Hills, we love Potomac. We used to love below deck. And when we saw the Salt Lake ladies set sail, we knew it was time to go back to below deck. But even that, there's, like, funny ways to, like, I like seeing where people live. I like seeing, like, the weird. I like, it's just. It's a little slice of paradise.

[A]

Absolutely. I mean, and it's just, like, for a couple of hours every week, you get to, like, fully remove yourself from your life and step into somebody else's. And it's. Yeah, it's escapism in its truest form, but it's not hurting anybody.

[B]

I mean, it's hurting their own reputations a little.

[A]

And maybe the Reddit star is hurting a little bit. But, you know, in general, I, The.

[B]

I mean, I have seen just. I won't name names, because I just know that these Two housewives would find me. But two recent brand new housewives went on different cities to launch businesses and tanked. And I don't think their businesses are gonna succeed after we all got to know them.

[A]

No, I mean, everyone watched Bethany do it and they were like, this is how we. And it's just doesn't work for everybody. For some people it absolutely does. Heather Gay talks about the fact that Beauty lab and laser was like, almost about to have to close down before she came on the show. Like, it's, you know, certainly people have, have made something of themselves from it, but I don't think the audience is as open to that as it used to be.

[B]

No, but maybe people can just keep manifesting and they'll see.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, she's gonna find me.

[A]

All you need to do is manifest, and then your bank account is 100% full and you have nothing to worry about. If only. Okay, well, I love that answer. And I'm gonna start saying that I don't have a vice. I just have things that help get me through. Let's get into confessions. This one is wild. I worked for a general contractor that was on America's Most Wanted. Yes, you heard that right. In February of 2020, just before the pandemic hit, I started working for a general contractor at his small company to get more hands on experience with the construction side of things. I was excited about the opportunity because it would allow me to fully be a lead designer. And it didn't hurt that it was less than a five minute commute when I started the job. It was just myself and one of his friends that worked for him. We jumped right into training, usually sitting in the conference room together to overview how to measure countertops, put together estimates, and appropriately account for the square footage needed throughout our projects. His friend had been there. And I'm saying friend like that because it's in quotes every time. Friend. Okay. Friend had been there for a few months by the time I joined, yet he still didn't know how to do these tasks that were his job as the quote, project manager. After about a month of being there, his friend ended up leaving to start his own unrelated company. So it was just me and my boss. We would go to every new client meeting together. Him talking construction, me talking design. I would then host all the clients back in our showroom, go through material selections, put together presentations with plumbing and lighting options, put together a full quote for labor and materials before we would review with the clients together, provide them with their project costs, and get any money from them. Yes, I did all this work before we received a dime from anyone. I guess it didn't matter to me because I was making a salary, but as a business owner now myself, what a horrible business model. I mean, we've all been there. I feel like when you're trying to win work in the beginning, you're like, sure, yes, I'll give you anything you want. One day when he and I were heading to a client's house where the client had complained about the tile subs leaving a mess of broken tile all over their interior courtyard and spa, he told me that he had to confess something. To my surprise, he told me he had a felony and was on a contractor's list of America's Most wanted in 2017 for working without a license. He wanted to be honest with me, so if any clients ever asked after googling the company or his name, I wouldn't be surprised and would be able to pass those clients questions on to him. His girlfriend at the time would recount the traumatic scene in which the cops finally found him and arrested him for the warrant. They were driving on the highway being pulled over at gunpoint. The poor woman stayed with him for roughly five years after that. Oof. Him being on America's Most Wanted didn't bother me until which like, sorry, what? That's a sticky point for me. Okay, it didn't bother me until a few months after I left his company. That is when I got a text from his now ex girlfriend to meet for happy hour because she needed to talk to me. I had no idea what this was about. I know in Heart Palpitations I had no idea what this was about, but I was intrigued by the situation as my time at his company often left me questioning logistics, finances and work processes. I showed up at happy hour and the tea started pouring. She went on to say why their relationship ended, that he was sleeping with one of the newest employees and had quote, allegedly drugged and sexually assaulted another. Her waking up completely naked at his home, not remembering a thing. Needless to say, a turn like the craziest turn. Oh like this man is evil. Needless to say, I was in shock because he never made advances towards me when I worked for him. But he was a very touchy type of guy. For months after that, a few other women employees he hired after many rounds of them left would contact me asking about him, questions about my time there and if he anything ever happen to me personally. This led to conversations with these women's husbands and even their lawyers at times. My God. Flash Forward. Not even a year after I left, his business closed down. I would hope so. Well, yeah, yeah. He was never supposed to have a GC license again.

[B]

Not even. Not even a year.

[A]

Not even a year after several rounds. Yes, so she said.

[B]

So people were there like a month at a time. Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like this may be the. The most literal revolving door that has ever existed. Oh my God. Okay. Not even a year after I left, that is what. His business closed down. He was never supposed to have a D.C. license again. He was paying to use someone else's. So the ROC was on his case after that. He wasn't properly supervising projects, so he got fired from some and his quote, financial backer had to pay them millions of dollars to fix issues that should have never happened on site, I. E. Electrical not being connected properly in the attic, flooding the whole front of the home, slab installation errors, et cetera. Slab installation errors. That's kind of the basis of the whole home. We're going to have a problem. What? Oh my God. Subcontractors were calling me asking how to get in contact with him because they weren't getting paid. The list goes on. It seemed like he was back to his old schemes of taking clients money and not finishing or doing the jobs right. I'm so glad I left when I did. And I feel horrible that these women after me had these traumatic experiences with this man. And the clients lost so much of their hard earned money because this man was a good sales guy. Now he's engaged and still traveling as if he doesn't owe people millions. I can't help but wonder if his fiance knows the real him.

[B]

First of all, in my side of the interior design world, I never get these juicy stories because I always get the finished photographs, perfect, shiny final image. And in interviews and stuff, if there was a contractor problem, everyone always says, do you mind if we. Not if we don't talk about that or. I don't want to give them credit, like I. It's always very hush hush on my side. So that was a thrill.

[A]

I mean, it is frankly an accomplishment to be on America's Most Wanted as a contractor. Contractors, not all of them. There are some great ones, but there is a large percentage that are not doing to the level that they like, are actually should be doing. They're doing to a much higher level. They're not equipped, they're doing things wrong, unfortunately. I see that a lot. But to be so, like, so fraudulent, I mean, at the bottom, the baseline that you're on America's most wanted. And that was before any of this happened. That was like the precursor he was on in 2017. This is like in 2020. This is year. I mean, it's.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

It makes me terrified.

[B]

I'm a little scared of him. Does he. Do you think that he can hear us now? If so, I think he didn't do anything wrong, sir.

[A]

We actually think you're innocent. And don't even worry about it.

[B]

We respect.

[A]

You can't even say it without laughing. Yeah. I think his penance is that he needs to go to jail for life. Or like the electric chair. I don't know what

[B]

it's so violating to home is the concept of all of it. The work that designers do, the money that they put into it, the money that they save for this to take advantage of something that in my mind is so sacred and important is despicable. I do think the penance is a little more black and white because it is just jail.

[A]

There's really no in between. He needs to go to actual jail for a very long time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The fact that he's out and still traveling with a new fiance is where I'm. And like, how do you go from America's most Wanted to be, like, owing people millions of dollars and not, like, yeah, I wonder if it's stuck in, like, civil litigation. I don't know. It's very confusing how he's still a free man.

[B]

Did like, she had to have Google, maybe. Does she know his. The fiance? That's dark.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Know your worth, ladies. You don't. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, either she doesn't know and she's in grave danger, or she does and she's co signing it and both are bad.

[B]

Like, has she introduced him to her parents? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, these, like, really bad, bad people that end up in, like, normal relationships. Planning for the future. Like, that. The fact that there are like, actual. The number of victims he left in his trail in his past, not just, like, financial women. Everything about it is like, that is so scary. But again, if he's listening, we're fine. I'm scared of him. I'm, like, really scared of him. But it just makes me. You know, you always hear stories about, like, like, oh, they ran off with our money and didn't finish the job. But, like, that is so nuts. That is crazy.

[A]

Well, and also, it just. I. Obviously we're women, so we know how dangerous it is to be a woman in the world. But, like, you just don't think when you're going to work for some random contractor that, like, your life is going to be flipped upside down. Like, it's. And you're going to be traumatized for the rest of your life. Like, it's. It's really, really scary and, like, precarious as a woman that you could be walking into that situation and just have no visibility, and you're in a horrible power imbalance. And, like, if you need bills paid, like, how do you get out? I mean, that is. It's just such textbook abuse of power on his side, as well as textbook sexual assault. Like, it's. Yeah, I'm having a hard. It makes me, like, anxious that people like that walk among us and they're just like, they could just be sitting next to you at dinner, you know? Like, you know that intellectually, but.

[B]

But I'm really sensing us both go from, like, this. That's crazy to be like, oh, God, really? A lot. I'm scared. Yeah, you want to think the best in people, and that's what our human instinct is. And that's really. It's just terrifying that. That he. It's like jail and then, like, pay everyone back and then, like, pay for the women to have PTSD therapy. All of it. It's so sad. And then it also was sad because there are so many contractors that are, like, wonderful, good people. Like, I've been through a renovation myself, and I trusted the team. We loved them. And we're working on a construction project now, and we are so fortunate with, like, the team that we found. It's just to, like, have someone, like, violate that line of work. I mean, men, they'll violate anything.

[A]

Clearly.

[B]

Clear. Yeah.

[A]

No, it's. It's true, though. Like, I mean, I just say to clients all the time, this is often, like, at one time, the most amount of money you'll spend, if not in your life, but in your phase of life right now. And, like, the fact that you do have to have a little bit of faith in the people you're hiring and trust, and then people like that are just obliterating it and frankly, fucking it up for the rest of us. Like, this is why there are some clients who are so anxious to get into things, to sign, because people like this exist. It hurts all sides.

[B]

Well, I'm glad he was on that list.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I hope they're keeping an eye on

[A]

him, and I do wish there was some repercussions. We'll manifest that he is in jail soon.

[B]

That I will manifest that.

[A]

What if this is the episode that breaks the case. They're like, because of Confessions of an interior designer. He's now in jail.

[B]

He's now in jail. Oh, and we'll just get like little medals. Yes.

[A]

A key to the city, Akita.

[B]

The city.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

I always say, I don't even think this is the saying, but the trash always takes itself out. Is that I say it a lot.

[A]

No, I think that's right. I mean it. Even if it's not a saying, it's your saying. And I think that works.

[B]

Bad things happen all the time. But I also do think that karma is real and like this is a person that will be running forever. So if he doesn't end up in jail, stuff is going to go wrong in every aspect and in every relate. Like this is a bad person and bad will follow. And so there's like a little bit of me that's like. I mean that's just like the concept of hope, that Hoping. Yeah. Injustice and hoping.

[A]

And also things that are worse than death and worse than jail. Like, you know, maybe karma running after him the rest of his life is actually what he deserves. You know, because you hear about people who are on the run forever and it's like, it's actually. They would be better off just being in jail.

[B]

Right. I hope that people feel comfortable to make reports or.

[A]

Of course, yeah. Well. And of course, you know, I think that's so common and it's not. There's no one right way to handle that situation. Like some people want to talk about it, some people never want to talk about it, some people want to report. Some people unfortunately are not to get too political, but unfortunately are. Police force is not typically the best about managing this sort of thing. So it deters women specifically from. From making reports and they count on that. Predators count on that. And so, you know, it. It's not. Frankly, I'm not surprised at all that he's not in jail for anything he did to women. I'm more surprised he's not in jail for all of the sort of money, construction, all of that side of things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because is our country just doesn't really care about women as much as they care about money. And so I think. What do you mean? Sorry guys. I don't know if you know, this

[B]

is a brand new information.

[A]

Really, really high. Okay, let's see.

[B]

Oh my God. No, it's.

[A]

We were talking about dark humor and it is kind of the only way to move forward. Okay. So we gave penance to this actually evil man. I Think penance for the person who wrote in is only female bosses from here on out. I know that women can be bad, too, but not in the same way. There's very rarely in the same way is a female boss going to do something like that. So that would be my recommendation.

[B]

I think that's a great. You can learn a lot from smart, competent women. I think that's a great idea.

[A]

And also, I think sometimes, because we're raised in a patriarchy, again, don't know if you guys know that. We were so, like, brainwashed into thinking that at the end of the day, men are smarter, more competent, they accomplish more, they make more money. That is true, but all of those things. And so. But if you. When you really get in the weeds and you have a female boss after, especially after you've had a male boss, you see just how much more productive, how much more function. Like, everything about working for a woman is easier, smoother, all of that. And there is certainly something to be learned from that. Let's get into confession 2. Decidedly, much lighter than confession was. So don't. Don't be nervous, okay? Not involving jail, thank God. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I have a funny story from a photo shoot I did a while ago, although it wasn't very funny when it happened. My team had a photo shoot scheduled at a home out in the newer suburbs. We had all arrived at the home and the clients were at work all day and had authorized us to have the shoot while they were out. Easier for them anyway. They had two dogs, a black lab and a doodle mix of some kind. And the dogs obviously stayed at the home. I can tell by your face you already know where this is going and were with us for the day. Everything had been running smoothly. We were in and out of the house, taking things down, setting up for the shoot, bringing in styling pieces, people running around, and kind of a flurry. Someone had been bringing in a large, heavy table and had left the door open in the process. Before anyone could stop it, the black lab saw his opportunity and made a run for it. He was out the door and down the street in an instant. We all freaked out and dropped what we were doing. It was like the dog had never been outside in his life. Life. He was sprinting, which, like, I can picture this so perfectly, he was sprinting across the front lawn, down the street, into the neighbor's yard, everywhere. We all ran outside to try to bring him back. And of course, half of us had literally just ran out in socks. So here we were Shoeless running around like crazy people for the neighbors to see. Trying to capture a dog who thought this was the best day of his life. Obviously, to him, this was a really fun game of tag. We were freaking out because the street they live on was actually pretty busy. So in addition to having the dog run around everywhere unattended, we also were terrified that it would get hit by a car. At one point, it ran right in front of a car and the person had to slam on brakes. I had like three heart attacks. some point, someone had the bright idea to lure him in with treats. We went through their pantry and found a bag and just grabbed the entire thing. As soon as he saw that bag, it was a game changer. He would come a few steps, then dart off again. Like we were playing again. I know this so well. It was exhausting, humiliating, and just so ridiculous for the entire street to watch. Eventually, a neighbor took pity on us and came out to help. We finally got him in the driveway. Like just 10 people running around and the neighbor having to intervene. It's so funny.

[B]

And it's playing that, like, circus song too. Like, oh, my God.

[A]

I have such vivid memories of this because when my dog was little, she would do this. She thought it was a game and she would zigzag and, like, juke me out. Would just stand there so defeated. Oh, God. Okay. We finally got him in the driveway, managed to snap the leash on, and walked him back into the house. Everyone was disheveled, panting, barefoot, and now laughing. We debated telling the clients because it had all turned out just fine, but because we knew the neighbors had witnessed the spectacle, we had to tell them. Thankfully, they were totally fine and actually apologized on behalf of the dog. And we as a team had earned our post shoot margaritas.

[B]

I love it. That's so stressful.

[A]

A nice light one after our first confession. But yeah, I mean, animals, I will say, like that moment of when they're running away and, like, there are cars, it doesn't feel funny.

[B]

It feels like, oh, my God, this

[A]

could be the worst. You know, this could turn into, like a really horrific situation. And then it's hilarious when you get back in and you realize how, like, funny you probably looked. But it's. It's not in the moment. So I can imagine, like, that heart sinking feeling is right. Especially with somebody else's dog.

[B]

Based on the neighbor coming out though, that dog is. Yes, that dog is making dogs for the streets.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He is. Yeah.

[A]

She said he seemed like he had never been outside. I'm Willing to bet he's been outside. Outside a lot.

[B]

I think he's outside right now no matter what. I don't know. Whenever anyone is listening to it, sliding doors.

[A]

He's always outside.

[B]

He is outside. As we listen, I give them some grace because we've done suits for the magazine, and we make sure pets are secure. Like you or like, I've always had cats, and, like, cats are all like, you shut them away.

[A]

Because there's.

[B]

And also. So I have a little bit of empathy for this happening because it seems like the clients might have known. Yeah, it does seem like he apologized

[A]

on behalf of the dog, that he was indeed a flight risk. I do think it's interesting because we, like, deal with this quite a bit, that sometimes a client. Their animal. I mean, same for me. Their animals are like, actually their children. So the idea of shutting them in somewhere is, like, the worst thing that you could do because they're not, like, socialized that way is what, like, sort of has been explained to us totally. But it is, in some ways, you're also putting them in more danger because, like, things. So it's. It's a. It's a hard. We'll pay for a day of doggy daycare or, you know, well, we got to figure something out to not have the dogs in the. The house.

[B]

Yeah. I make. I used to. Our cat Leonard, he made it to 20. Bless his little cat heart.

[A]

I know. And what an angel he was. He was so beautiful, too. I'm so sorry.

[B]

He was. He wasn't an angel. We loved him dearly, but he was a Bengal. And if you look up their meow, it's more of, like, a baby cry, like a guttural scream.

[A]

Wait, I have heard that. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. He was, like, so sweet, but he was not used to a single door ever being shut. And so if I ever was recording anything, I would shut my office door, and people would be like, do you need to attend to your baby? And I'm like, it is a cat, so I can relate. Yeah. There. You can't always shut anyone away.

[A]

They're like, God, she's such a neglectful mother.

[B]

Yeah. No, he just needs his temptations. Like, it would be like meetings with ad. Like, ad sale meetings.

[A]

Important.

[B]

Just a cat.

[A]

They can sense when it's important, and that's when they wild out. Like, they act so crazy. As soon as they can sense something is important, Piper does it too. So penance. I feel maybe the dog needs penance. I feel like he's the real perpetrator. Of this situation.

[B]

No, no. The dog gets five little treats and a new bed. Being such a good boy can do no wrong.

[A]

And maybe an apple air tag just like in, you know, just on the off chance she makes a run for it again. The designers, they already got margaritas. Thank God.

[B]

They. Well, do they. They save the day. I was going to say they have to like design a really cute like doggy wash station to get to, but

[A]

yeah, maybe their next project is around dogs. Like it's like dog karma. They have to pay off. The whole next project is designed for dogs.

[B]

We just published a house on the website that has a doggy wash center and a feeding center. So it was just in mine.

[A]

We did one at my parents house and they use it so often. My mom also uses it for flower arranging which you don't think about when you're doing a dog wash. But it's like the perfect height and the perfect size for buckets of flowers. So it kind of does double duty. I love that. And then maybe also it could be fun to do like a team outing to the Humane Society or Anti Cruelty Society and walk some dogs or like do some, you know, some community service that way. That could be a good way to sort of write the scale. Oh my gosh.

[B]

The answer is always volunteer at the Humane Society.

[A]

Any issue, volunteer at the Humane Society. No, I agree, I agree, I agree. So I have some questions for you and the where we'll start is not as fun, but I'm sure some people who know you know this, but not everyone does. Your home burned down in the Altadena fires. Can you tell us a little bit about. And I mean, I'm sure we cannot cover the process because it's been over a year of hell I have to assume. But I would love just to hear in your words sort of how you guys are doing where you're at.

[B]

Well, yeah. So the LA fires were last January, January 2025. And we loved our home. We had a really. It was our dream home. Our first.

[A]

It was beautiful.

[B]

Thank you. We, we purchased like what was meant to be our forever home. And I always feel this like, weird. I don't know if it's just my ego or. But it's important for me that people understand what happened in Altadena because it is at the foothills, but I lived in the city. Like we didn't live in the hills and both neighbors on both sides of us had moved there to live somewhere fire safe. Like one had moved from Laurel Canyon and the other from more The Malibu Hills area. And they both chose those houses because they were like, we just want to. We don't want to be afraid of fire anymore. And so for this to happen was, like, truly so catastrophic that. And we. We just never thought. So we evacuated. We grabbed Leonard, God bless him, and a few pieces of art. But, like, not. I, like, left wearing a Spice Girls T shirt. And that was my only T shirt. So funny. Not funny, but yeah. Yes. It's been kind of a very strange year, especially working in the home industry. But I found most people don't really wrap their head around the enormity of it. And so I've had people say, did you lose all your clothes? And I'm like, what?

[A]

I lost everything. I.

[B]

Closet was. Yeah, everything. So we initially, we weren't sure. I mean, thousands. There was like 9,000 in Altadena, and then the Palisades happened at the same time. And so the rental market was crazy. And we evacuated. I'm originally from Boise, Idaho, and we had friends with a home in McCall that it was empty, and they graciously rented it to us for six months we were there. And it was kind of a weird choice to go, but, like, the air here was. So it was just. We had to get out of la.

[A]

It would have felt traumatizing for me to be there so soon. Yeah, I would've made the same decision you did. Just to get some space, some mental

[B]

space, too, and to be closer to, you know, be closer to my dad. And it was such a weird thing. Cause we just packed these overnight bags, and then all of a sudden you have nowhere to return to. And that is. And I am. It happened to us, but it happened to so many thousands of people that. That has been really hard for us to process as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not just our own loss, but, like,

[A]

this community, the enormity, tragedy, the whole community losing everything. I mean, it's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think people who haven't gone through it can even fully empathize because it's impossible to know that feeling of like, oh, where's my favorite lip gloss? It doesn't exist. Where's. Know. From my grandmother from the third grade. It doesn't exist. Like, every. Cause I. I mean, I think I'm. I'm moving and, like, things are in all different places, and I'm so discombobulated and anxious and I still own everything. It's just in different places. And I feel this way. I cannot. And I hope that's not coming off insensitive. My. I'm more so saying, like, I think it's one of those things that, like, my God, what a horrific thing that you have to experience. And it must feel so lonely because it's sort of singular. While also the rest of your community is also trying to manage.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. It's been very isolating, for sure. Mostly because we just want to be seen and we want people move on. You know, when the news stops covering it, people move on. And we're still. So my husband and I say we're kind of in this weird waiting room. So fast forward, especially speaking of isolated. Six months in the mountains of Idaho was a lot. And we had. We were so grateful and it was so beautiful. And we saw my dad all the time. And so there were some really big benefits to it. But then there was this moment where we were like, no, we have to go home. This is home. And this is where I can run the magazine from anywhere. But my husband works in la, and so it was time to come home. And we weren't sure what to do. Like, do you rebuild on the same land or do you sell it and start over? And so there was a lot of discussions, but we decided to rebuild on the same land. That's another fun fact. You still. When your house burns down, you still owe the mortgage.

[A]

Yes. I wanted to talk about this. That is so insane to me. And, like, I guess. Yeah. Because. But, like, whoa. That's not something you think about until your house burns down. Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And the other thing, most people, we were underinsured and we didn't know, but almost everyone is, because most insurance policies are tailored towards, like, if there's a flood or a tree falls on the

[A]

roof, not an entire house fire.

[B]

Yeah. And so that has been a big issue of working through the financials and working through how we make it happen. But we found. Speaking of me saying, I have an incredible contractor, so we are working with the same designer that we worked with on our renovations, Patrick Maziarski. And then the builder is Waleed, Delaware, and he lost his home as well, which is horrific. And yet he started building last March. He was a lot quicker than us. And he should be home the next month. Like, his house is nearly finished. And so he's kind of leading the path and learning everything with the county and learning permitting and what to expect. I think they're rebuilding about 12 houses in the area, so we're in good company. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And it must feel like he does understand, at least to some extent. So with all of the demands of building a new home. It's gotta be nice to have someone who. Who understands the feelings that you feel, because it's also gotta be complicated as you're rebuilding this house and, like, you're having to mourn the things you had, and it's. It's gotta be a complicated feeling. Feeling.

[B]

It's definitely. Well, luckily, I'm in therapy. We both are in therapy. We love our therapist, but between my husband, Tim, and I, we definitely switch back and forth between who is okay at different times of the last year. Right now, he is more optimistic. So I'm. I'm in a phase of feeling not less optimistic, but just more realistic. So we don't have permits yet, and that's bumming me out.

[A]

Yeah, it feels like you're in a holding pattern.

[B]

Yeah. And the design of the house is nearly done. We're going. The front will look identical.

[A]

Amazing. I mean, it was such a beautiful house. I'm really glad you guys were doing that.

[B]

Yeah. It was in 1928 Spanish with these archways. And so we're recreating that. And then inside, we've made some changes based on how we lived in the space. And it's really. It's a sad thing because we never would have moved a single wall. We wanted to live in an old house. We did the renovations, but we didn't move any walls. We respected what was there. And so this concept of you can do anything is so odd. And I think it will be. I have this feeling that the second that we get permits and start pouring foundation, the switch will go. And I'll be like, oh, this is great. But right now I'm like, I didn't want to be. Build a house. I just want to go home. And.

[A]

Well, it's like, you're forced to build a house, and building a house is a very difficult process. So typically, you need to be sort of all in on the process in order to want to do it. You're in a spot that not most people find themselves in, where it's like, I. It's a privilege to be able to build a house, but I wish I didn't have to. I want the house that I had totally.

[B]

And we. It is not lost on how lucky we are to be able to build again. There are a lot of our neighbors who are not in the same situation and that. So we're grappling with how can we get ourselves through this and also help the community? In what ways can we give back? Especially now, but especially once we're home as well. Like, really supporting the community and the history, just the diversity that was in Altadena and the. It's a tremendous loss to the city of Los Angeles for that. And it also. We're really lucky. We've got this kind of great rental. We're in a neighborhood that is familiar and close to a lot of friends. But then also, this is not my artwork. So we're sharing an office, which is a little snug on some days. But then I think how it's like this weird tightrope of we are grateful and we are so fortunate to be in the situation in this way. And then I'll zoom out and be like, wait, I'm not that lucky. My house burned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I really do know. I know how lucky and how fortunate and how much privilege we have to even be able to get ourselves out of this situation. And then I also don't know many other people that this has happened to aside until this day now. I know a lot of people.

[A]

Luck within a very unlucky situation, which means you're looking for the bright spots. And it's, I think, the only way to get through something like this. But still. Yeah. And I mean. And the baseline is you were not lucky. It's incredibly unlucky and, you know, sad to lose everything, every belonging you have.

[B]

Hey, I had a Spice Girls T shirt.

[A]

Sorry. I cannot forget the Spice Girls, obviously. How could I? That was my bad. Sorry. I'm going to issue a correction. No, but before we move on from discussing the fire, what is something that you feel like people need to know about house fire? Something that they can do to protect themselves potentially.

[B]

Okay. So when we look back at the last year, there's so many lessons that we learned just in terms of, like, homeownership and insurance and things we would have done differently just in what we did that night. And so the fire broke out like, around 7 or so. And we never thought that it would ever come to our house, but it was a really bad windstorm and we had a big tree that we were afraid was going to fall. So we kind of left in a rush because we did not want to be crushed to death by this tree. It never, ever crossed our mind that something like this at this scale could wipe out an entire town. And I don't feel like I'm necessarily. No, I am a little bitter. I'm working. I'm trying not to be. I'm trying not to let it reshape how we view the world. But I also. I'm like, tragedy really can't happen, and it's not going to discriminate. It can happen to anyone. I wish that we had understood our insurance policy better. We were more insured. We had great coverage on our belongings, but the structure was only insured for, like, if the tree had fallen or if there had been a flood. And so if we had spoken and understood that more clearly, which it seems to be across the board, most people don't know that, but make sure. What would it cost to rebuild this from scratch? And that's really what you should be paying for insurance. That's what your policy should cover. The other thing that people are surprised to find out, we've had to make a list of every single thing that was in the house, down to, like, Q tips. And how full the box was, like, when we bought it.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

How much it was worth, what it would cost to replace. And if we had just walked through the house and filmed a video and opened every single drawer and just narrated it and said, okay, in this drawer, my baking supplies, and kind of rifle around and save that, you know, on Dropbox or the Cloud or whatever, so that you have it and maybe do it once a year of just documenting your belongings because it's so you forget about things. And we work on the list, and then all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I forgot I had this in the attic or whatever it is.

[A]

I can imagine. I mean, I would be. Also, the amount of brain power and time that takes, my God, that's like a second job in itself.

[B]

It is a thousand percent a second job. And that has been. One of the harder things is we have careers, and we are working with architects and builders to try to get permits and try to rebuild. And there's so many jobs that are assigned to you when it happens. And so it's important. I try to tell people all the time, like, just take pictures of everything or take a video, film everything so that you know, and talk to your insurance. And then the other thing is ask yourself and, like, commit it to memory. What if I was given a chance? If I was given 15 minutes, what would I take from my home? Before leaving, I had always said there's. I have this portrait, this oil portrait with my cat Roxanne.

[A]

And I always.

[B]

It's very chic, but it's like a cool piece of art that I had gotten for my birthday. And I had always said, oh, I would save that in a fire. And I did we left and I grabbed that painting. But what I didn't grab was this. I mean, the power was out. It was pitch black. We're running around with flashlights, just getting our passports and getting this, like, the important documents. And we left behind a quilt that my grandmother had made for my dad. I never in my life would have. I never would have left it. I just didn't see it. And it was only what we could see. And my husband left all of his art. So his whole. From basically art school to now, all of his sketchbooks, all of these in progress pieces, everything. He just left because he thought this is you just. Your brain goes, oh, you're being crazy. We're gonna be back in a couple hours. I never allowed myself to.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I can so see myself feeling the same way. Like, I'm being so silly. We probably don't even need to leave. But just in case. Case. We'll close on our back. We'll be back tomorrow. I mean, that's.

[B]

That's how I would feel that. And there were things that I looked at that I went to grab and I was like, oh, you're being crazy. It'll be safer in the house than whatever. We weren't sure if we were going to a hotel. And then friends said, I'll just come here. And that we even felt silly, like hauling in these suitcases and like this pork oil portrait of a cat being like, thanks for letting us crash.

[A]

And it's like, there's some absurdity in this horrific situation that is just like,

[B]

yeah, oh my God. And I. The other important thing is get to know your neighbors. People did die in their homes in Altadena because health just wasn't coming for them. And they. It's a tragedy that is inexplainable. And our next door neighbors were already asleep and my husband just pounded on doors and windows until. Until someone. Until they came down. Cause it was his buddy and he had to make. He wanted to stand in the front yard. And yeah, he would never say that, but I say it often, and they say it often that he. There's no guarantee that they would have woken up until it was too late.

[A]

They could have woken up too late. Yep.

[B]

And I just think that was because we would stop and chat with them every single time over the head and get to know them and get to know your community. Because that really has been the most important part. And now it's exciting. One of the neighbors is rebuilding on one side of us. Not everyone can. The others have sold their lot but we're talking and sharing Pinterest boards and saying, will you be okay? And it's this feeling of hope and true community that I don't think we ever would have learned if we hadn't experienced this. And now. So there was a fundraiser shortly after the fire. The these really cute hats, like dad hats that say Altadena. And if you see people wearing them, you like stop and you're like, excuse me, like, are you a fellow victa? And everywhere we go, if you. We were even on a flight like in Charlotte or something, and someone stopped and was like, I like your hat. And like was wearing the same hat. And so getting to know your neighbors and community and like it's so. Everything's so online and everyone so keeps to themselves and that has been a really big lesson. I, I'm not as taught, I'm not as outgoing and so without my like wonderful husband, we might not have known who lived there. I would have just been playing computer, my teen digital diva computer game alone.

[A]

I really relate to that because I, but I, since I live alone, a single woman, I have told my neighbors, I'm like, if you hear me scream, please call the cops. And I know they're always like, okay, but I'm like, no, seriously, if I scream like there is something wrong, I don't have a boyfriend. I yell at there's something wrong, please call the cops. And that's not you. You know, that's not exactly community, but it is the people you live around, the people you surround yourself with. If you can be a two way street, then it ends up being, you know, definitely something that's worth investing in because you never know how it could play out in your life like it did here. I mean, that's insane, right?

[B]

Well, I don't know why that happened. I don't know why it happened to that time. I like find, I like with all grief, whether it's, you know, the loss of a loved one or a tragedy like this, you find yourself kind of going down these different. What if it had been, what if the wind had been different? What if like all of these things and it's such a strange thing to experience that it did happen and there's like just, there's nothing to do but move forward and try to grow from it and try to build, like, build back stronger is such a cheesy thing. But we're like, we made the decision, okay, do we move away or is this home? And it was such a close, clear picture that LA is home and our Community is here. And we want to be part of building that same community back. And so, like, the importance of the front of the house being exactly the same. I want to honor what was there and honor the community. And we're just really excited.

[A]

That first day you sit down in your new, old, new home, it's going to feel so. So I'm sure incredibly emotional, but very rewarding.

[B]

Yeah, I hope so. We. Sometimes I worry, like, will it be like a ghost? You know, like, it's such a weird concept because we know the way that the light hits the land. So we. Because of that, we thought, okay, well, let's put a closet instead of a room there, because that room was always so dark. And like, so there's these weird solutions. And I'm really curious and excited to know what it will feel like. And we found a lot of solace.

[A]

In some ways, changing things might be good.

[B]

Yeah. Hilariously, like, the most LA thing, the kitchen used to be a little bit sequestered off, and it was very cozy and very fun. And it was where everyone would gather, but it was much smaller. And so we'd set everything up for parties in the living room, but everyone would just cluster in the kitchen. And so we moved it to the center of the house. It'll still feel appropriate to the architecture. But I said, I was like, we love having an Oscars party, so if we could have the kitchen closer to the TV. And poor Patrick was like, I don't design around TVs. And I was like, you're going to.

[A]

We're gonna need to. So sorry.

[B]

Yeah. Because otherwise someone is missing the speech. So we're really designing. We changed a few things. Things when I say to, like, how we live, it's to how we host and how we open our doors to our community and our friends and our family. And that is what I'm most excited for, is to get out of this temporary thing for, like, this new chapter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I hope.

[A]

I mean, I'm wishing you guys all the best new chapter. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be great.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Okay, just a couple more questions before I let you go. I know how busy you are. You gave me one of the biggest breaks of my career, which we talked about. Why is it a priority to you to be able to showcase young talent?

[B]

The reason is because young talent is often the most interesting. And so in, like, the case of your space, that was so exciting and interesting and unexpected, and that is important to publish because I've Noticed, especially when young designers become more established and maybe get bigger budgets, things start looking similar to the design designers that they've admired. And so the early projects tend to show the point of view a little bit more genuinely. And I see thousands of photos a day, maybe not a day, a week.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And you start to see repetition. And that isn't a bad thing. It's just in telling an editorial story and making a magazine, I want it to be really exciting and innovative and offer a fresh perspective.

[A]

That's a great way to put it.

[B]

Typically with people that are starting out, there's more risks. They're wanting to put themselves out there and become established. And so I see that edge a little bit more in an exciting way. Then, of course, I also have seen what getting published can do for someone's career. And it's a responsibility that I know how powerful it can be and that it can be a launch pad for people. And so I enjoy that. That's really fun to be able to. So special like that is the most rewarding thing. I. Well, I was going to. I have always saved. If someone ever writes me a handwritten thank you note, I save all of them. And I almost said, and I have all of them, but I don't they.

[A]

So case in point, we were talking about earlier. The idea of them is out there.

[B]

Oh my God. But I have the new ones now. The ones any that I've received. I have started a new collection. But like I vowed.

[A]

That's so sad.

[B]

Not funny at all.

[A]

Not funny like. And I'm just giggling because it's so, like we were just. I mean, it's just a perfect example of what we were just talking about

[B]

is, yeah, they are no longer with us, but I would. I still save them. And I save even thank you emails when someone says what it mean, what it meant to them. And I remember when I had my blog and I was trying to be a freelancer and I wouldn't hear from anyone. Like, those moments of acknowledgement are so, so important to the person saying it, but important. Like, I really take a lot of pride in what I create and it's exciting to know how much it means for someone to be part of it. So I always.

[A]

That is a good feeling. That's lovely. And you basically answered my next question, which is what do you look for when it comes to pitches? Because it's ultimately just different things. Things that haven't been done over and over and over again. Right.

[B]

Digital and print is a little different because there's Always a need for digital content. Prints. Every issue of the magazine I think of as kind of a puzzle. And so it's like, do I have a space that fits this category? Have I chosen too many from California? Just because that's where I'm based and who I'm talking to? And so there have been times I always let people know, like, a pass on publication does not mean that the project isn't good or that you're a failure, or it comes truly just down to timing. And does the space have it? Which is such an annoying. It's like, such a la. Like, do you have it?

[A]

Do you have it?

[B]

But sometimes I've said no to, like, really beautiful homes, and I just feel like an idiot because I'm like, this is so such incredible work, but we're not the right outlet for it right now. And so I'm always looking. People want to know, what are you looking for right now? And that I can never answer. It's always like, I. I'll know it

[A]

when I see it.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Well, thank. I hope so. And it's. Yeah, you do know it when you see it. You know, this is exactly what the next issue needs. Or we're a bit overloaded on color and funky stuff right now. I need this subdued moment. I need this calm Y. And also an important thing that designers don't often think about when it comes to styling is what florals are you styling with or what's outside the window. And so I just got a pitch that really wanted it for print, but it's all orange leaves. Fall, fall, fall. And I'm placing for spring and summer, and they didn't want to wait until then. So it, like, timing really comes down

[A]

to it's not going to work out.

[B]

Y Style and season.

[A]

I think that's a great point. It's frustrating as a designer because sometimes you'll be like, I need to photograph it this in the same season that it needs to be pitched for. So it's like sometimes things are taking a full year from. I mean, often they're taking a full year from shooting to full, being in, you know, in print or even in digital. But, yeah, you have to know when to pitch the thing, because even if your product is amazing, if it's in the wrong season, people are going to pass no matter what. So. And that can feel kind of disheartening a thousand percent.

[B]

And I really do love spaces that have a very seasonal look. So that's not to say, start only using, like, neutral year Round flowers.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no, no. Please don't start doing that. No, no, no.

[B]

Yeah, start. Style it to evoke the feeling you want, but also know that that means timing will be a little less out of or in your control or you might have to wait.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And would you rather people know, like, okay, this needs to be pitched. This should be in fall. Like, when should they come to you? When they get the photos and say, we know these are fall photos. We're okay to wait. Okay. Because then you sort of know what to play with down the line. Line.

[B]

And it also takes a little pressure. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I know the pitching process is really arduous on the designers end as well, whether they're doing it themselves or working with pr. Like, there's a lot that goes into it, but so I feel pressure to get an answer, like, right away. And I can't always.

[A]

Yeah, that cannot always happen for me.

[B]

It's not as helpful for me personally to get any sort of preview images or. Or like, we will be shooting just because I have so much coming in that seeing the finished photos is usually the best for me. And less emails. I think anything that's less emails is always helpful for all of us, for every industry, for everyone.

[A]

I completely agree. Please don't send me any more emails.

[B]

But I think it's helpful to know, to be aware. And also really helpful for me if you're wanting it published soon, to say, I'm okay with digital, if that gets it out, and just really excited to share this project or my lifelong dream is print, so that's what I'm pitching for. And I also encourage people to know that it is. We're all friends and the industry is very social, but it is still business. And so if absolutely I'm saying, oh, we'll offer, you know, we'd love to run it on the website. It does not hurt my feelings if someone says, I really only want it for print and, like, take it. Get, like, pitch it elsewhere, see if there's a better fit or come back to me. Stuff might change. But it. People are always really nervous and I'm like, no, it's not. I will not take it personally.

[A]

I do think that's good for people to know. Like, you're not disqualified if you say, I'm gonna show it to somebody else. That's, I think, good for people to know for sure.

[B]

Yeah. I always say I'm always here if you want to take it somewhere else. It's not like I Set a timer. And I'm like, I didn't hear.

[A]

Back in two weeks, 24 hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Deals off the table.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, last question for you. What is your favorite part of your job?

[B]

Well, I think it's what I was talking about earlier, seeing how much it means to people to be included, especially when they're starting their own business. That is so rewarding to me. Especially because creating it can be a little isolating. You know, a lot of. It's a lot of writing. It's a lot of computer time and creating it. And I feel so much joy when, like. Especially if it's in print, when someone films themselves going to get it at the newsstand, I'm like, wait, I made that in there. And that's the second. My second favorite part is actually seeing it on newsstands.

[A]

That's gotta be so exciting.

[B]

Yeah. It's weird. And we always. So I, like, look through it. And my husband, we used to always say, like, if we were grocery shopping together at Barnes and Noble, my husband would be like, that's her magazine. And we realized that people were like, yes, you can buy that magazine if you want.

[A]

That can be yours if you buy it. Oh, no, she made that magazine.

[B]

But, like, I was just getting stuff over the holidays at Whole Foods and, like, looking, looked, and we were. It was just. The winter issue was right there next to. And that was so cool. And it's really special. And I have no way of knowing who it's resonating with across, you know, the US And Canada, but the fact. Even when I see it in people's houses, like, just their coffee table, Instagrams, I'm like, that's so cool and so fun.

[A]

I mean, it is. Like, the fact that it came out of your brain onto a screen and then onto a page and then into people's homes for potentially 50 years. I mean, I'm. You know, people keep design magazines for a very long time, and it sort of becomes an archive. So it's incredibly meaningful what you guys do. I think it's very meaningful to me.

[B]

Good. It's even more meta because it's. The magazine came out of my brain, but the interior design came out of other people. Like, it's this real celebration of, like. Yeah. Creativity and the love of home and how much it means to people and. And what, like, design. I think interior design is so valuable and important, especially given the last year of my life of not being in control of our environment was the biggest challenge at times of, you know, we're in Strange places and borrowing things from everyone and seeing, you know, when someone can create this space that they feel safe and seen and valued and can recharge, and it's just, like, the most meaningful thing. So getting to tell the story of those spaces is really wonderful. I love it.

[A]

And you do it so well. I mean, it's. It's a gift.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

So the tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel what is something that made you feel recently can be anything.

[B]

Ooh, the Olympics.

[A]

Yeah, That's a good one. Yeah. It's kind of hard to not feel at the Olympics. I find myself crying for everybody just because it's like, they just wanted to

[B]

do it and they did, you know, I love it. I guess it's sort of the same thing as talking about, like, the value of home, of just these, like, really human stories of, like, hard work and what it means to them. So we have been watching every single night, and I cry, but it's, like, so great to see. I just like that human. I'm so empathetic that I, like, really like that human feeling.

[A]

It's, like, the positive part of humanity. To see it on your screen and I think is nice. And these. Yeah. People who work so hard and dedicated so much. It's the same way I feel about marathons. Like, I could probably make myself cry talking about marathons. I'll never run a marathon. But the fact that, like, someone took so much of their time and life and all of that is so moving to me. So that's lovely. Perfect answer.

[B]

I wish I had. I would not have said that if I had thought to prepare, like, a cooler answer, but it was no, no, no.

[A]

I think that's a perfect answer when it's off the dome, because I feel like it's a true answer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Tell people where they can find you and how we can buy ru.

[B]

I've got a few. So Instagram, it's Kelly Lamb, underscore. We've got an underscore at the end. And it's Kelly with an I RU magazine. On all other socials, rumag.com for all of our digital content. And then we are newsstand only across the US And Canada at stores like Whole Foods, Barnes and Noble. At Barnes and Noble, we're usually on the special magazine section, which is Truth Row. We love them for that. And Target cvs, wherever you buy magazines, if you're like me, you scope out your city's, like, magazine stand and go find it there.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, everybody goes. Print issues are amazing, so recommend.

[B]

Thank you. Or you can find me at. If you're ever at High Point or other trade shows, I've always got, like, five in my bag. I'll give you one.

[A]

Kelly, thank you so much for doing this. This has been so fun. I could literally talk to you for, like, five hours, but I think my editor may be a little upset.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And thank you all for listening. Until next week. Peace be with you. Bye, Sam.