I confess… my client is going to bankrupt me

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer: Episode Summary Title: I Confess… My Client Is Going to Bankrupt Me
Release Date: January 29, 2025
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Maddie Asabrook

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Introduction

In this riveting episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner delves deep into the unspoken challenges and dramatic experiences that lurk behind the scenes of the luxury interior design industry. Joined by her guest Maddie Asabrook, a seasoned fashion and interior design professional, the conversation navigates through personal anecdotes, industry dynamics, and a particularly distressing confession that many designers fear but seldom discuss openly.

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Guest Background and Industry Journey

[00:04] Caroline Turner introduces Maddie Asabrook, highlighting her transition from a fashion career in Ohio to becoming Chicago’s favorite interior design representative.

Maddie shares her journey:

[01:06] Maddie Asabrook: "Had to get out of Ohio real quick. Came to Chicago for college, started in fashion, worked at Nordstrom for five years…"

She further recounts her brief stint in Los Angeles, working for a contemporary showroom under Betsy Eisenberg, before returning to Chicago to pursue her passion for textiles and interior design.

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Navigating Industry Showrooms and Relationships

The conversation shifts to the complexities of working with large showrooms like The Mart. Caroline expresses her frustration with how junior designers and reps are treated.

Caroline critiques The Mart:

[03:28] Caroline Turner: "They will not even look you in the eye. Like, people who work at The Mart… if you're an asshole to them, we're not working with you."

Maddie concurs, sharing a story about a superior labeling reps as "minions," which led to formal apologies and strained relationships.

Maddie’s insight:

[04:08] Maddie Asabrook: "Someone heard it. Shocker. Because people have ears…"

Their mutual disdain for unprofessional behavior within large showrooms strengthens their camaraderie, highlighting the importance of mutual respect and collaboration among designers.

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Shifting Industry Dynamics and Rise of Independent Brands

Caroline and Maddie discuss the evolving landscape of the interior design industry, emphasizing the decline of traditional showrooms like The Mart and the rise of independent brands offering more personalized customer service.

Caroline observes:

[07:06] Caroline Turner: "It used to be that there was, like, the mart showrooms, and there was no one else… Now, many young people are opting for independent brands…"

They highlight how the COVID-19 pandemic accelerated this shift, forcing brands to pivot and adopt more flexible business models. This trend not only diversifies product offerings but also fosters stronger, more meaningful relationships between designers and brand representatives.

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The Power of Relationships in the Design World

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the critical role relationships play in the interior design industry. Caroline emphasizes that respectful and genuine interactions with reps can lead to exceptional service and support.

Caroline emphasizes:

[17:52] Caroline Turner: "The relationships you create in this industry can carry you through your entire career…"

Maddie adds that working with women-owned and led businesses often results in smoother collaborations, as empathy and mutual respect are more prevalent.

Maddie comments:

[16:18] Maddie Asabrook: "Women-owned businesses, women-led businesses…. my humble experience has always been the best."

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Dealing with Unresponsive and Problematic Clients

The episode takes a critical turn as Caroline discusses her experiences with difficult clients who fail to honor their financial commitments. Maddie and Jessica join in to offer their perspectives and advice on handling such situations professionally while protecting one’s business integrity.

Caroline shares her frustration:

[27:07] Caroline Turner: "Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with invoices piling up and no response to my emails, no calls returned…"

Maddie empathizes, highlighting the anxiety and financial strain caused by clients who neglect their obligations, especially when they outwardly appear successful on social media.

Maddie relates:

[28:07] Maddie Asabrook: "Yeah, famous last words."

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Main Confession: A Client’s Potential Bankruptcy of Her Business

The core of the episode revolves around Caroline’s heartfelt confession about a client named Lily, who is jeopardizing her interior design business by failing to pay invoices while portraying a thriving enterprise on TikTok.

Caroline’s confession:

[26:40] Caroline Turner: "I've worked with some great clients, but nothing has prepared me for the mess I'm in right now. This particular client, Lily… she owns a small, trendy boutique and her business is thriving… Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with invoices piling up…"

She details how Lily continues to invest in non-essential aspects of her business, such as new inventory and sponsored content, while ignoring payment for design services rendered. Caroline expresses the emotional toll of watching a client appear successful while her own financial stability is at risk.

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Handling Non-Paying Clients: Advice and Strategies

The conversation shifts to actionable advice on dealing with unresponsive and financially irresponsible clients. Caroline, Maddie, and Jessica explore various strategies to protect one’s business and maintain professional integrity.

Legal Recourse:

[34:29] Caroline Turner: "I think you need to hire an attorney. It sounds like you have one if you sent a certified letter…"

They discuss the importance of taking legal steps, such as sending certified letters and considering small claims court, to recover owed funds. The group emphasizes that while these measures can be daunting, they are necessary to safeguard one’s business.

Emotional Support and Professional Boundaries:

[33:44] Maddie Asabrook: "I feel so bad for her…"

Caroline advises:

[38:24] Caroline Turner: "Please, call me because I want to chat about this right in again. And let us know what you do, because I need closure."

They highlight the emotional strain of such situations and the importance of seeking support from peers and legal professionals.

Maintaining Professionalism:

[39:30] Caroline Turner: "Don't burn the bridge. Don't."

While the temptation to publicly shame or expose difficult clients is strong, the speakers advocate for handling conflicts privately to maintain one’s reputation and professional relationships.

Maddie reinforces:

[37:55] Jessica: "Send her something with the mistress's name on it."

This underscores the delicate balance between seeking justice and preserving professional decorum.

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Exploring Personal Anecdotes and Hypothetical Scenarios

To illustrate the complexities of dealing with deceitful clients, Caroline narrates a fictional yet plausible scenario where a designer discovers her client is building a home for someone else, reflecting deeper layers of dishonesty and manipulation within client-designer relationships.

Fictional Confession Highlights:

• Discovery of client’s hidden personal life.
• Emotional turmoil and professional conflict.
• Ethical dilemmas in continuing to work under false pretenses.

This narrative serves to underscore the unpredictable and often personal nature of challenges within the interior design industry.

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Final Advice and Closing Remarks

As the episode concludes, Caroline, Maddie, and Jessica offer final pieces of advice to designers facing similar predicaments. They stress the importance of legal action, emotional resilience, and maintaining professional boundaries.

Caroline’s concluding thoughts:

[55:25] Maddie Asabrook: "I don't know. Unless you're just like, I'm cool to check my character and I'll just continue on."

Encouraging designers to seek legal counsel, prioritize their mental health, and protect their professional reputation, the episode wraps up with a call for listeners to share their own confessions and stories, fostering a supportive community.

Caroline invites:

[66:10] Caroline Turner: "Please, please write in your crazy design stories. If you don't want to write in, call me…"

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Key Takeaways

1. Importance of Relationships: Building respectful and genuine connections with brand reps and colleagues can significantly impact a designer’s success and support network.

2. Navigating Industry Changes: The shift towards independent brands offers more flexibility and personalized service, highlighting the need for designers to adapt to evolving market dynamics.

3. Handling Difficult Clients: Legal action, emotional support, and professional boundaries are crucial when dealing with unresponsive or financially irresponsible clients to protect one’s business and mental well-being.

4. Community Support: Sharing experiences and seeking advice within professional groups can provide invaluable support and solutions to common industry challenges.

5. Professional Integrity: Maintaining professionalism, even in the face of adversity, ensures long-term reputation and career sustainability.

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Notable Quotes

• Caroline Turner:

  [03:28] "They will not even look you in the eye. Like, people who work at The Mart… if you're an asshole to them, we're not working with you."

• Maddie Asabrook:

  [04:08] "Someone heard it. Shocker. Because people have ears…"

• Caroline Turner:

  [17:52] "The relationships you create in this industry can carry you through your entire career…"

• Maddie Asabrook:

  [16:18] "Women-owned businesses, women-led businesses…. my humble experience has always been the best."

• Caroline Turner:

  [27:07] "Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with invoices piling up and no response to my emails, no calls returned…"

• Maddie Asabrook:

  [28:07] "Yeah, famous last words."

• Caroline Turner:

  [55:25] "It's about character. And this one decision could really affect the rest of your business."

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Conclusion

This episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer offers a candid and in-depth exploration of the often tumultuous experiences faced by luxury interior designers. Through personal stories, expert advice, and a powerful confession, Caroline Turner and her guests shed light on the realities of the industry, providing valuable insights and fostering a sense of community among listeners. Whether you’re an industry insider or simply fascinated by the behind-the-scenes world of interior design, this episode promises both empathy and actionable guidance to navigate the complex landscape of high-end design projects.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to introduce our guest this week, Maddie Asabrook. She started in fashion before getting into the interior design industry and is now Chicago's favorite rep. We grew up in the industry together, and I'm so excited to pull back the curtain together today. Hi. Thank you for being here.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So excited to be here.

[Caroline Turner]

Caroline, I'm so excited for you to be. I mean, we've been talking about this since the beginning, and I'm really happy we're finally doing it.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So exciting.

[Caroline Turner]

Yay. Okay, so the first question I ask everyone is, how did you get here? And I might jump in occasionally.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

We've sort of joined the journey together at one point. So start from the beginning, and I'm excited.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Love it. Ohio girlie born and bred.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Had to get out of there real quick. Yeah. I came to Chicago for college, started in fashion, worked at Nordstrom for five years. Ish.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Grew my skills, grew my fashion wardrobe, credit card debt, et cetera, and still have all this stuff. So, you know, not too bad. But, yeah, I learned, you know, really most of my skills there, I would say. And then I had a little stint in Los Angeles in fashion, which we all, you know, have a little stint in Los Angeles among us, doesn't have a stint in Los Angeles. Good. It's fun. So I worked for a contemporary showroom that was frigging awesome for a wonderful woman named Betsy Eisenberg. And my friends all lived here in Chicago, started having babies and things, so moved on back and was like, how do I. What do I don't want to go sell in retail? So.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, because there's really no, like, real fashion companies. I mean, there's a couple, like, a handful maybe, but I guess Aziza Notre. But, like, it's.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And, like, e comm's huge, but, you know, it's, you know. Yeah, it's a little bit slimmer if you don't want to do the whole retail thing.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, for sure.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Which is, you know, all well and good, but I knew I loved textiles, so there was a job at the Mart. I applied for it, and rest is history, I guess. But, yeah, right place, right time, I would say, and really just wanted to do something different and something appropriate for.

[Caroline Turner]

The city, and that's where we meet.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Here we are in a showroom together being like, what is happening?

[Caroline Turner]

It's my intern summer in Chicago, and I walked in, and it's important to note, I think this is still happening, but it's not as bad being, like, a junior designer or an assistant or at worst, an intern. They will not even look you in the eye. Like, people who work at the Mart. They. You are the scum of the earth. They will not look you in the eye. Which is crazy, because they're the ones that actually bring me the things that we're gonna use. So if you're an asshole to them, we're not working with you. Like, how are we not connecting? These do. And I still remember. You hear that? Still remember the people who were assholes to me at Walmart, and they will email and ask for meetings, and I'm always like, no.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Or, sorry, busy for life.

[Caroline Turner]

Sorry. I don't honestly tell you, unfortunately, we don't use your brand.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because that. I mean. And I'll ask them, like, how is mar. How were people? Because we're not working with someone who's treating people who they perceive as less than badly. But when I go to the mart, they're like, oh, my God, Blah, blah, blah. It's disgusting. It's disgusting.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's really a common story, unfortunately.

[Caroline Turner]

And, I mean, it's why the mart is not doing well now.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I mean, I hope that there's more of a, like, call to service. I mean, I hate to, like, put on that dumb Nordstrom hat, but, like, that's really what it is. I mean, you know, a superior in a story of mine has called them minions and had to formally apologize and send flowers. That's so.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, crazy. You know, it's like, that is called the minions, literally.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And, like, someone heard it. Shocker. Because people have ears. And, you know, it's just like, the fact that that is something that is even acceptable for you to be saying in your own head is kind of crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely not. Okay, well, and my point in saying all of that was that you were, like, the opposite of how I was experiencing the Mart at the time. And I think one of us was like, I like your phone case.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Literally, it was a phone case. It was a phone case.

[Caroline Turner]

That's how we became friends from there. And I would always go to you, even though, like, we technically had a rep at this firm I was working for.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's fine.

[Caroline Turner]

And I could not stand him. I did not like that man. And he didn't have a good reputation. And so we Became friends. And over time, I realized, like, oh, she's amazing. And I feel like we get each other. And we were like, we were cheering each other on, even though we had no power in the industry whatsoever yet.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, that's the vibe, and that's the.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's really. It's just the beautiful part of this industry and about this community. And I think, like, the more people who can embrace that obviously will hopefully.

[Caroline Turner]

Because, I mean, we'll get there. But, like, I now, because we are friends and we've grown up together, like, my first things we use are your brands. So, I mean, you know, that's just how we operate.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's too kind.

[Caroline Turner]

No, but we Literally, everything.

[Jessica]

We're using Maddie stuff. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because it's. It's just like, you make it so easy, and you're so fun, and, like, you're a real human. I don't know. It's. This industry is not as serious as the mart wants to think it is.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, man, do they?

[Caroline Turner]

And it's just so, like, we're having fun.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Okay. We're literally.

[Jessica]

It should be fun.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. And there's no reason to, like, dread going into a place. And I think there's a bigger conversation about, like, how can you sell things to someone if you won't. Like, you're supposed to be charming me, you're supposed to be selling me things, and you won't look me in the eye.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's so boring.

[Caroline Turner]

It's the same thing as, like, if you walk into Hermes in, like, a workout outfit, they're not gonna look at you even if you could buy a Birkin right there on the spot. But you would think by now, at this point, because this industry has shifted so much, there's so many young people coming. That would have changed. Instead, we're really just working with, like, independent brands and independent reps outside of the mart. Like, you know, working with supply showroom out of Texas. They have all different types of lines. And, I mean, they're out of Texas. And we get, like, great customer. Better customer service than we do, like, from someone at the mart.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Wild.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's not to say that there aren't great showrooms at the mart.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, and I think it's just hard because especially in this industry, there's so much great product.

[Caroline Turner]

So much great product.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So it's like. I mean, there are, of course, things that are special to each brand and things that are unique, but I think. And especially in the custom world, you can obviously go a million different directions, but ultimately, there's a crap ton of linen fabric.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, and so many people are doing custom rugs now. And so it's like, who can you. I think more and more there are options.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

It used to be that there was, like, the mart showrooms, and there was no one else. Like, you didn't have a choice to work with independent brands or people that you liked and wanted to support, because there wasn't that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And now that we have that, I think it's become really obvious. It's just an easier way to work that way, too. Like, they're more flexible, I guess I would say. And, like, current, like Covid, really, really, really, really, really showed that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

The brands that were willing to pivot and be quick on their feet versus the brands that just didn't change the way they were doing anything 100%. They don't exist anymore. Like, half the mart is empty.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I mean, it's kind of wild when.

[Caroline Turner]

I walk through there. It feels like a bit of a ghost town.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

But when you go to the design showrooms. Yeah, they're halfway empty.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it's really kind of sad.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's interesting. And I mean, I think a shift kind of is helpful sometimes, especially to get some more interesting different product in front of people and different methods of delivering that product to your client.

[Caroline Turner]

So I was asked to be on a panel for a heritage brand, let's say, like, one that all designers would know the name of. And they were asking for feedback because they're sort of changing the way they're doing things. And I was easily the youngest person at the table by 10 years. Probably love that. And maybe maybe that's a little bit aggressive. Maybe like seven years. But they were like, what do you think we could improve on in the showroom? And I was like, well, you guys are not nice to our junior designers. And one of the principal. Because it was all principals at this table. Right. One of the principals looks at me and goes, that is simply not true. And I said to you, yeah, like.

[Jessica]

Why would I make that up?

[Caroline Turner]

I was an assistant five years ago. I remember this. You maybe were never an assistant. And if you were, it was 25 years ago.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yep. And there's a disconnect.

[Caroline Turner]

There's a massive disconnect. But I think that's so indicative. Like, if I had not to say, like, I. I think they were annoyed that I said that. But if we're in an echo chamber, if you're talking to principals about how to improve these brands, principles that have been principals for 25.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

There's no. They're not gonna understand. They don't have, like, the pulse of what these younger firms are wanting. And I think it's like, before, it was just known the mart is icy. It's part of the industry. It's how it has to happen.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And this is how it is.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And that's just not true.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I know. And it doesn't have to be true. And that's kind of the best part about.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Our industry's diversifying. I mean, it's. It's a good thing, I think.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Definitely.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's gonna require some of these heritage brands to change the way they do things. Or die.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, grow or die.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Nuts. Yeah, absolutely.

[Caroline Turner]

And learn how to work, like, within our industry now. Okay.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Anyway. Sorry.

[Caroline Turner]

I am on my soapbox.

[Maddie Asabrook]

We love.

[Caroline Turner]

But this is one of the things that really, I feel like our industry, there's. It's ripe for a shakeup.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, agreed. And especially in. Also not only in product, but, like, in how we treat people and growing our community in a different way other.

[Caroline Turner]

Than you can have the most beautiful product lines. But if your rep is an asshole and doesn't do what they're supposed to do, no one's gonna.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, no one. And if they do, it's just because there's some heritage.

[Jessica]

You don't have another option.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, never. Yeah. So it's. You know, let's shake it up.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely. Before we get to your advice, I think this is so indicative, and I'm gonna tell it myself a little bit, but. So when we were working together, when we were working together, early in our careers, I was working at a firm that was well known, and your boss was an asshole and still is. I don't think he's dead, but, I mean, he was not a nice person to like anyone, but especially the lowly assistants and interns.

[Maddie Asabrook]

The minions. The minions.

[Caroline Turner]

Aforementioned minions. Correct. And so I went to my boss and I said, I can't work with this man. And I just can't. And so, you know, I think at this point, this was like. She was like, I don't care. Just do whatever you want. Can I call and ask for a switch? I literally call corporate of this heritage brand, and I'm like, hey, so the person who runs your showroom's a fucking asshole, and there's someone else in the showroom that we want to work with? And, I mean, I think this company I was working for was one of the biggest accounts.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

So to lose. For him to lose this account was, like, a big deal, but if that tells you anything, don't fucking make me mad. I'm a Scorpio. Like, you're not gonna watch yourself.

[Jessica]

Biggest takeaway here.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly.

[Maddie Asabrook]

There's also people like you in the industry who, like, will say something, because that is the more difficult choice is to, like, fight the power and to say something different. You can't treat us differently and that this shouldn't be the way that it is.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So we can. Hopefully there's more stories and more conversations like this.

[Caroline Turner]

I really, genuinely do.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Also, because I think there's this feeling in the industry, like, if your experience is what makes you great. And in my experience, like, the people who've been in the industry for 20, 25 years are worse. Like, they are not willing to change the way they do things. They're not willing to pivot. And so it creates this where, like, yes, they have the experience, but they can't get any sales.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

No one wants to work with them.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And it's just. It's really interesting, especially in residential. There are so many people starting their own firms right now. Yeah. I mean, always, but, like, especially right now. And it's like, that is, I think, like, one of the most beautiful things that we did last year, too, and, like, launching this podcast and trying to get things off the ground. It's like, we did a roundtable with designers, and we had everybody over, and we talked for hours, and we ate tacos and we, like, we got really.

[Caroline Turner]

Vulnerable and people talked about.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It was not about competition. No, no. Not about, like, sharing and about, like, how do we do this?

[Caroline Turner]

And since then, we've created a downline, essential, like, we've been referring out to so many people just from that roundtable.

[Maddie Asabrook]

We've only done one.

[Caroline Turner]

One. Well, and by the way, anyone who's listening who lives in Chicago, if you guys are interested, we're going to do another roundtable. So put on the Facebook group or send me a DM or something, and we can get you on the. Because it's really fun. We talk about everything from reps and products all the way through. Like, I don't have clients. I have too many clients. Someone suing me. Like, we got really, really nitty gritty. And I felt like people walked away with some really, like, genuine pieces of helpful information.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So, like, for their business and for their clients, and, like, it just spans so much further than, like, oh, yeah, here, I'm Maddie. I'm here to sell you a rug.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Do you like this? You Know, it's just this is things that I think are actually impactful and important for our industry.

[Caroline Turner]

So, yeah, I agree. And yeah, we'll keep doing it because it really was so fun. And I feel like we're. I'm still seeing, like, the repercussions in a positive way. Okay. My ADHD is roaring today. I don't know if I finished that full story. Felt so negative. 8 degrees short.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Literally negative 8 degr. Long story short, I got our rep switched, and I then got a call from her boss, and. Oh, I was so.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, that was a really fun time when the phone hung up and I got to have that conversation in the hallway of the sixth floor of the Merchant House. Oh, my God.

[Jessica]

And I can't imagine being like that new in the industry and doing that, you guys. And you get a call from her boss. Literally stomach in my ass.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Like, no way.

[Caroline Turner]

But I was so angry, and I was just like, look, I don't know what to tell you. You weren't doing your job.

[Jessica]

I mean, kudos to though, for.

[Caroline Turner]

But that's crazy. That's crazy.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And, Caroline, you weren't the first.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and I know. And that's the other thing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I take that back. You were the first to call, but.

[Caroline Turner]

Not the first to complain.

[Maddie Asabrook]

She paved the way. Certainly not the first. But, I mean, more people. This. Another big switch happened in that same kind of era.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

With the same person. Imagine that. But it's like, you know, I. It's. Things kind of tend to.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and it's. I certainly wasn't the only one at my firm complaining about him. It was the entire, like, we would have conversations about how bad he was at his job. I was just the first one to be like, I'm not doing that talk to him ever again. You know, I need this to be done.

[Maddie Asabrook]

These conversations last for years. And after you switch companies and you are here for a whole nother reason, you get to hear stories about these people still. So it's just be better. And I think that was the other thing. It's just like, if I was the kind of person that was, like, celebrated when they were like, less. You know what I mean? I would just like, how do these people go to sleep? I just.

[Caroline Turner]

I know.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It doesn't make sense to me. Yeah.

[Jessica]

And I mean, I feel like we talk about that all the time with how, you know, some reps will treat us. We're like, if we treated our clients like that, we would have no clients.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That is not how you deal with anyone, especially like, in this bracket, like, that's just.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, we're trying to sell their products and we can't get an email back.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right. I mean, we're all selling the product. That's the crazy thing. We're doing the same thing, ultimately. So you would think we're all the middleman.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So we're woman, rather woman.

[Caroline Turner]

Mostly women.

[Maddie Asabrook]

But you know what I'm saying. It's like we all have the same bottom line. And so when I.

[Caroline Turner]

The same goal. We're trying to sell your product.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Whatever. Ego, whatever. I'm not sure the answer. I think obviously it's a mixed bag, but, you know, there's something in the way there.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I also do think working with women, like, women owned businesses, women led businesses.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Amen.

[Caroline Turner]

Is just easier.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And my humble experience has always been the best. And, you know, definitely something that I would celebrate.

[Caroline Turner]

Typically, women are leading more with empathy, and that's something that trickles down through the rest of the team. Absolutely. And I mean, I don't worry about them going out in the world and being, like, reflection of our team because I know who they are as people.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like that's the thing that, like, I never have to worry if you guys are going to be rude to someone or going to say something you shouldn't just be totally like. Doesn't even enter my mind. I can't imagine having someone on my team, like, obviously sometimes we have to, like, lay down the law, be upset. That's not what I'm talking.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, and I think that's not what we're talking.

[Maddie Asabrook]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

It's two completely different things. So.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And I will say, in my experience too, I think the principles, you know, whole manner, demeanor, personality, mindset, business shift, really reflects in the team all the way from the top to the bottom. And, you know, you can tell that when you immediately walk into an office door.

[Caroline Turner]

We have people say that to us all the time. They'll be like, you guys are. So you guys are talking to us and we're like, yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Or you're a principal who will sit at the meeting, Caroline, like, because they.

[Caroline Turner]

Don'T have time too.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Really.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, I try my best, you know, I try my best to be at the majority of them. Well, of course you're the principal.

[Maddie Asabrook]

You're running a. But the fact that you're, like, interested in seeing the product in the first place, I mean, that's.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, these relationships. The bottom line is the relationships you create in this industry, I mean, can carry you through Your entire career legitimately or lack of relationships. And I mean, it goes both ways.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes, absolutely.

[Caroline Turner]

I think me giving them respect hopefully means that they give myself and my whole team respect. And then there are times where things go wrong in our jobs. And if I have a relationship with a rep that I can call and say, so listen, shit has hit the fan, right? This is what's happening. I don't know what to do. And those reps that I have a relationship will move heaven and earth to make it right if something happened. I mean, you know, I've had reps really go above and beyond to cut costs, cut pro, do things to where, because we've been so loyal to them, they're loyal to us. I mean, and that's not why I'm doing it. It's not like I'm having a relationship to then say they're gonna help me down the line.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, it's a give and take, I think. And, like, you know, there's a lot of positive that we both give to each other in having that, you know, relationship built over years.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, the fact that I could come to you and say, hey, I.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Mean, legitimately, I shipped this woman a rug in the completely wrong color. Do you remember that?

[Jessica]

Oh, my God.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I do remember that. It was not correct. And I got the picture and I was like, um, that's not correct. That's not correct. So, like, and here we sit. I mean, that's the point. It's like, how do you handle the situations that come up?

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And especially as a rep, you're dealing with, I mean, at least in my experience, several different personalities. You know, sometimes multiple vendors, multiple product lines, multiple categories. So.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're having to manage the creator of the product side and the designer.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, and the, like, shipment and the like and the legit. And you're just like, I don't. I'm not a tax person.

[Caroline Turner]

I barely passed accounting in college.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Like, I always make the joke. I'm like, do you like this white drapery or this off white drapery? Oh, yeah, it's a little too yellow. You know, it's just like. It's just. That is the bottom line at the.

[Caroline Turner]

End of the day, multiple times a day, I think of the speech from Devil Wears Prada where she's like, it's not blue. It's not cerulean.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, all the time.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Embedded in my head.

[Caroline Turner]

Embedded. And I mean, honestly, iconic. But that was. That really was like, kind of the era that when we started in this industry, it was very Devil Wears Prada.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I remember. And I went into an internship thinking that, and actually, the principal really surprised me, and it was fab. But then I would work for other people who were not to the level of being Devil Wears Prada. That work.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And you were like, wait a minute. This is confusing. Did you see the movie? You liked it.

[Caroline Turner]

Because I worked for someone who is that level, and she's not like this.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And that's the craziest part. Same. I have worked for a titan of industry, like, who started her business before I was born, and of course, had her moments. But, like, if you went with your shit together and you could, you know, answer to it, she was complete respect. And, like, that's. That's the way it was handled. Yep. And it was the people who couldn't have their shit or, like, couldn't take the blame and something else to say about it that would, you know, have to take shit in the office. So that's the way it is.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. I mean, we talk about mistakes all the time, and the something will happen. We just had a situation with tile happen, and the person who orders our tile came to me, and she was like, I fucked up. I did a miscalculation, and we have 50% more tile than we need.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

And at the end of the day, I said to the client, the calculations were fucked up. We ordered too much tile. And I'm never gonna be like, she did.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

We're not pointing out I'm the principal. It ends with me, and I'm the one that has to make it right. That should be the feeling of all principals in every firm. But from experience, it's not.

[Jessica]

It is just not.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's not. But it also should be from the rep of, like, this is my product, and like, it my fault that there's a monsoon in whatever country and that I like. No. Legitimately. In a meeting one time, someone asked me to stop monsoon season. You guys would. 100% serious. They had a deadline, the client had a party. And the monsoon. The monsoon season was in the middle. It's always a party. Like, it was 100% serious. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, I'll.

[Caroline Turner]

See what I can. What reality are you living in that you who party is it? Are you kidding?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Like, it's. But that is, like, where it gets to. Sometimes you just have to, like, float outside of your body and be like, oh, my God. Like, how do I respond to this? You know, Like, I'm not gonna say I don't have A rain stick. You know, like, that's not.

[Caroline Turner]

I apologize. It's not something that you should need to say. That's pretty.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Why am I here? What's happening? You know, I just.

[Jessica]

But that's the type of people we end up dealing with, so.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And that's the ca. I mean, it's a legitimate story for a reason. So, you know, I just.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. Well.

[Caroline Turner]

And something I'm realizing as my part as the principal, which I did not learn in other firms, even though they were, like, had principals, luxury to the nth degree. And, like, you know, we're billing individual $50,000 a month each client. Like, we're talking crazy levels. I just feel, oh, we're talking crazy levels. So what we're trying to work on is saying no to clients and, like, setting a reasonable expectation for everyone. Yeah. I mean, clients can say, I want to be done by X date, and I'm having a party at X date. Unfortunately, that's not how this works.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And for so long in my career, I didn't feel like we could say that. But now I've just realized you got.

[Jessica]

To save your sanity in order for.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, our relationships to stay, you know, tenable. In order for there to not just be this, like, crushing weight on you, sometimes the party's gonna have to get post total.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And that's like the famous rep line is like, manage your client's expectations, you know, and it's like, I wouldn't say it in that capacity, I don't think are so dragged, but I mean, ultimately that's what it all is. But that's also my job, too, is to give you the accurate information and not just be someone who answers the email one week later.

[Jessica]

Or like, yeah, we'll get on.

[Caroline Turner]

We'll let you know.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Do a tracking number that has no information.

[Caroline Turner]

It has not been sent, and it's just a dead tracking number because that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Also is a thing that is very much at play here.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and I do think it's. That's partially why some of the rep relationships can become more contentious, is because we're taking the rep's word.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And what they say is bible to us, and then we're turning around and telling the clients what they say. So if it comes out that the rep did not have the correct information, which happens way more often than you would think, or they, you know, led us astray or made a promise that they couldn't keep, the client doesn't care.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

It comes back on us.

[Caroline Turner]

It's on us.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's always. And that's ultimately what I have to care about, you know, 200 times over with all of the other. It's like if you get those phone calls all day long of problems and you know things, it's like it's impossible to do your job because you're just project manager constantly, which you need to be because you're the one with the information. You're the one that's, you know, been here all along through the project. So it's imperative.

[Caroline Turner]

I do think, I think about being a rep all the time. I could never like the only way that this works. Like, so I want to be clear, like I'm talking shit. But also it's a difficult job. Like we have someone who handles our logistics, the side of our business. So the fact that the reps not, not everywhere but a lot of the time are having to be the one to do the rep meetings, to sell the product, to make sure everything's good while the product is being created and then to manage the deliveries and all of the logistical stuff and selling and.

[Maddie Asabrook]

The problems, if there are any afterwards.

[Caroline Turner]

Before we do a confession. What's your vice?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Unfortunately, I have to admit that my vice is 90 Day Fiance right now, the TV show. You guys, there's so many spin offs. There's like 25.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God.

[Jessica]

It comes up on my TikTok all.

[Maddie Asabrook]

The time, knows that you're watching it, then your feed is exclusively. It just keeps going. So it's. Yeah, there's like a White Lotus version now.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Whoa.

[Caroline Turner]

It's gone out of control.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Horrendous.

[Jessica]

Oh, okay.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Enter if you dare.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean I watch Love after lockup and that's worse.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, I mean there's just also that show.

[Caroline Turner]

So.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, good. You just, you gotta, you gotta just.

[Caroline Turner]

Have a completely different reality than I'm living in. And it's always interesting to see how those people like go about truly, you.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Know, I'm working on myself. I'm not screaming at someone.

[Jessica]

I'm like, wow, I thought I made bad decisions.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm doing pretty good.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I met marrying someone from a foreign.

[Jessica]

Country I've never met that doesn't speak the same language as me.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's me, it's me.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, let's get into confessions like always. The names have been changed to protect the innocent and not so innocent. So here's the thing. I've been an interior designer for about seven years now. I've worked with some great clients, but nothing has prepared me for the mess I'm in right now. This particular client, let's call her Lily, she owns a small, trendy boutique and her business is thriving. At least that's what she posts about on TikTok.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Geez. Of course.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep. She's constantly showing off the store, her products, her team, and all of these great things that make her business look so successful.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Ah, social media.

[Caroline Turner]

Mm.

[Jessica]

Gotta love it.

[Caroline Turner]

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with invoices piling up and no response to my emails, no calls returned, nothing. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. I did everything by the book. I presented her with a solid design plan. I sourced all the materials, coordinated with my subcontractors, you know, the whole thing. I even went out of my way to help her stay on budget. I believed in her vision. And in the beginning, she seemed so on top of it all, but now she's barely acknowledging my existence. I've had to front the money for the subs to keep the job moving forward. Yikes. We're talking thousands. I can't afford to keep doing that for much longer. But if I don't, the project gets delayed and then I look bad. So I keep going, hoping she'll pay me. I feel like we've all been there, where you're like, I just have to finish the job.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, famous last words.

[Caroline Turner]

But then you're stuck holding the bag.

[Jessica]

Which is you're literally head barely above water.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Hate it.

[Caroline Turner]

But then I check her TikTok, and there she is, out shopping, buying new inventory for the store, laughing with her team, posting sponsored content. It feels like a slap in the face. She's spending money left and right on things that aren't essential to her business. But somehow she can't pay me. That's the worst part, because it's like the rage. If your client just goes ghost and is not posting anywhere or doing anything, you can lie to yourself. You can say, maybe they had, like, an emergency. Maybe someone's sick there. There's gotta be, like, a plausible explanation for this. But to be ignoring you about bills and then posting about. About everything on TikTok.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So performative, it's. Yeah, that would enrage me.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. I mean, I can't.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So much work, too. And it's like, it's small business to small business. It seems like.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and also, this is not a person's home. Like, the business owes her money. So it's a little bit more complicated to then be like, some clients will not pay our bills, and then they'll go on vacation and I'll be like, are you, like, cool yacht?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, literally.

[Caroline Turner]

But it's not like their business is making money from the thing I did.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

That's right.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's another level.

[Caroline Turner]

It's an even. Yeah, it's another level of disadvantage.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, both are horrible, but one is. Yeah, much worse. I've tried everything. Calls, emails, even a certified letter. That's what I was gonna recommend, but she goes silent. And the worst part, every time she posts something new, I feel like I'm suffocating under the weight of this unpaid debt. She's out there living this perfectly curated life, and I'm about to lose my business because I trusted her. I really feel for you.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

The final straw that made me write this email today, she posted on Instagram on a yacht in Italy.

[Jessica]

Literally, like, jump into traffic.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I just said, cool yacht. Y. Y. I cannot.

[Caroline Turner]

Why is a yacht.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Why? Why a yacht? It's an. It's even more infuriating. It's not just about.

[Caroline Turner]

The other thing is, I would be so embarrassed.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right. How do people sleep at night?

[Jessica]

You're trying to, like, show off your small business while you're actively fucking over another small business.

[Caroline Turner]

And on a lot. Like, I'm doing so amazing, and then you're potentially putting this business out of business.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

You are evil.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Evil. And I think the other interesting thing about this is we all know the veil behind the social media, and, like, it seems to be the more performative it is, the more. The more ingenuine, unfortunately. I mean, and not for everyone, of course, blanket statements are dangerous, but that just seems to be the common theme. So it's like, there's definitely more to this story that.

[Jessica]

Oh, for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

And who knows? Maybe there's, like, the business is actually burning down behind the scenes, and they don't have the cash flow. Like, you're right. There's a thousand things that could be happening. But I feel certain that if the owner had just talked to the designer and been like, look, here's what's happening. We are not doing well.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Here's what we got to figure this out.

[Caroline Turner]

Can we get on a payment plan? Like, there's a thousand things you can.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Do for, like, ways to ve things or get, you know, different.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a thousand things that could be done, but the idea of just completely ignoring and then being on a vacation is so infuriating. I'm losing my mind.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Getting ghosted is, like, infuriating. But then on a business side, especially small business, to small business, it's like, this is another level of come on.

[Jessica]

Like, this is intentional.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes. That's when it starts to feel like.

[Caroline Turner]

If you're holding $30,000 worth of unpaid bills, $30,000 can make or break payroll.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

For our business for the first, literally five years, if we had 30,000 of our own dollars in our bank account liquid, that was not any client's money. We were doing great. And so the idea that this designer could have been doing really well.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

But, I mean, she doesn't say how much. I'm saying 30,000. Because I've been in a similar situation, it tends to get to that point. The other thing is, if this is, like, the end of the project, I understand it, because that really happens where, like, if your client has been paying well throughout the whole project and has given you every reason to believe that they're going to pay their bills, you tend to put your neck out there a little bit. If they're late on bills every time, you're not going to do that. But if they've been a great client. So I think you can get to this point where you're like, I just have to finish it in order to get paid. I'm going to have. Have to front. Especially if they're bad at communication. Because you're like, I just. We have to keep it going.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

And so, like, I don't want to make it seem like I'm passing judgment because I've literally been here.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it is so easy to get to this point, and it's easy to say, never front for your clients. Never do that. But it's just not reality.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, and especially where, again, unfortunately, we're talking about social media, too. So it's like, more than just getting paid, especially when you have time and, you know, things invested in this project and hopefully, like, publication and some capacity. Absolutely. Or like, some kind of form of.

[Caroline Turner]

Getting it out there, Especially if it's a brand. They're typically negotiating, like, we'll post you everywhere. We'll do this. You can do this for less. And so the idea that they're not holding up their end of the bargain.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I wonder if she's just gonna, like, go ham on social media with the, like, you know.

[Caroline Turner]

Right. I mean, listen, I don't know. I. It's tempting. She says, I don't know what to do anymore. I can't just keep giving her the benefit of the doubt. But I also can't afford to walk away if anyone out there has with something like this, please Send help. I don't know how much longer I can hold on.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oof. I feel so bad for her. I know.

[Caroline Turner]

I think 1. Let's all take a collective deep breath.

[Jessica]

Your business is not over.

[Caroline Turner]

It's gonna be okay.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This is one client.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This does not define your work.

[Caroline Turner]

Nope.

[Maddie Asabrook]

As a designer.

[Jessica]

So true.

[Caroline Turner]

I think you need to hire an attorney. It sounds like you have one if you sent a certified letter. The thing about a certified letter is it cannot be ignored because it's certified that it made it. So you need to go back to your attorney and talk to him about next steps, because that would be what our attorney would recommend, and we've had to do this. We have had an eerily similar situation where it was a business and she owed us money and she went on maternity leave.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, we were.

[Jessica]

It was bad.

[Caroline Turner]

It was months and months and months and months of holding tens of thousands.

[Jessica]

Of dollars beyond us, emailing us over and over.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, calling everything.

[Jessica]

It was radio silence.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And then we sent a certified letter, and we got the money. And she said, I had no idea I owed you money.

[Jessica]

I thought someone on my team already paid you.

[Caroline Turner]

And we're like, we've literally been stalking you again.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This is like. This goes back to the character thing too.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jessica]

It's like, how are you sleeping at night knowing you're doing this?

[Maddie Asabrook]

I don't understand how you can just ignore major things going on in your business and in your life and think that that's not gonna have consequences down the line.

[Jessica]

Especially if you're so active on social media.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. You're in the public eye. I would be so scared that someone would come in. I mean, if she's wronging this designer, she's also doing this to a lot of other people.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes. And this community is small.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This community is small. The city is small, and it's wild. It gets me every single time. There are stories for days about how. How, like, this can come back.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. I mean, it's very shortsighted of the client, I think. I think continue down the legal avenues. I know it can get tricky because depending on your state, small claims court has a limit. And so small claims, you don't have to, like, full on hire an attorney. Often you can do it yourself. It's still pretty gnarly, but it's like, up to $10,000. And so if you're holding saying less than $10,000, this is gonna hurt.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

But I'd say drop it.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

It sucks. Like, it sucks. It Sucks. It sucks.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

But you're gonna pay more in an attorney. You're gonna pay more in all of that. And then I think it's really hard.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

But karma. Karma is gonna come back.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's what I'm saying. It's like, this cannot just happen and have.

[Caroline Turner]

She'll wrong the wrong person at one point who will not let it go.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Performances only go so far. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because it's going to ruin your life. It's going to be. It's going to be an endeavor. And look, if you have $50,000, this is not the. Like, do not drop it.

[Jessica]

No, absolutely not.

[Caroline Turner]

Hire an attorney, go to court, fight her, figure it out. And honestly, if that's the case, again, not an attorney. This is not actually legal advice. But often there's emotional distress that can be recouped. If your business potentially was going to go under and you can prove, like, you've lost reps, you people won't work with you because you can't pay your bills, that becomes a much bigger totally. I want people to get their due. Like, that's something that I feel justice. Like, I want. I want. There is justice. And so I do think that if it feels right to you that the only way you're gonna be able to sleep at night is knowing that you did everything you could to stick it to her, then I think that's what you do. I think the social media side is really tricky because my, like Scorpio side is like, yeah, fucking get on TikTok and tell everyone and break the illusion that she has on social. I think that becomes the nuclear option.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Caroline Turner]

That's the pull the plug.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's the pull the plug for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

And the thing is, because it will hurt her, but it will also hurt you. Yeah, it reflects. And that's the thing that it might not be worth it to. I mean, if anything, maybe you write an anonymous email to a publication.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Like, I would write to get a secret chopper.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I would write someone who, you know, because if this person is on TikTok and has potentially been in press and all that, it's an interesting story to hear about a company that is pretending to be. In my experience, it was like this female owned, female empowerment. We're all about women, we want to support women. And then left us holding the bag like that is a bad person. So I understand that instinct to want to tell everyone and burn the bridge.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

But other clients are watching.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's true.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, it's not to say that you should be run over, but I think it's one of those things that the more you do in pressure private, the better.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, totally.

[Jessica]

You gotta toe that line a little.

[Caroline Turner]

Even though that's really fucking hard.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, I know. It's like one of the really dumb, hard, adult things. I just like, don't burn the bridge. Don't.

[Jessica]

In like, I want to blow up on them, but sometimes I'm.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I have the dynamite ready to go. It's ready.

[Caroline Turner]

I would be more tortured by knowing someone knew that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

And was holding on to the information.

[Jessica]

Oh, that's so good.

[Caroline Turner]

I almost feel like you're more in a position of power.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

If you could say something, something. But you don't. But they know you could.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Which this person might not be all like, it sounds like she's not. I don't think she's not fully, like, get that. But that's what helps me.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's true.

[Caroline Turner]

Sleep at night is knowing I could, though.

[Jessica]

I have this power.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Your character is not.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm not going to slander them, but I could. But I could if I. And maybe I'll slander them when I. Like in smaller groups of people. I think it's the social piece that can get really out of control.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

That's not to say that you can't drop some little morsels, like, if you know anyone who knows her. Because we have also had that where it was a residential client and we had worked with one of their friends and they weren't paying us. And so I just strategically dropped to the other client, which, by the way, both horrible clients that I never wanted to work with. Again, like, kind of a specific situation. I didn't say any particulars. I just said we were having trouble because we were left holding the bag. And I got an email that night with the ach. Because they don't want their reputation.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

But if. If no one's talking, if you're not saying anything, there's no incentive for them to do the right thing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, man.

[Caroline Turner]

So, I mean, I'm not saying that's the first thing you do, but it is an option. People care more about their reputations than they care about. And that's really sad. But maybe that can work in your favor.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. Especially you've done the work and, you know, there has to be something to show for that too.

[Caroline Turner]

Some penance for the designer. We were just talking about going to, like, a hot spring. Some sort of, like, I think a spa vacation.

[Maddie Asabrook]

A retreat.

[Caroline Turner]

Also a night of shit talking with your friends.

[Jessica]

Oh, 1,000%.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, have the girlies come over, order pizza, put on a movie you're not gonna watch and just talk shit.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, totally. Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think sometimes, even if it's like you're not talking shit about the thing you're upset about, it gets that energy out 1,000%. It, like, clears it out for you. And your friends are obviously never gonna do anything about it, but they can hold that for you. I think that would be my first step.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Love that. Can we give penance for the terrible other person in this situation? I think she should have to go to endless trade shows and deal with end terrible reps who don't respond to her and ship her the wrong orders and wrong size runs.

[Jessica]

Wait, I love that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Is that rude?

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I mean.

[Jessica]

I mean, at the very least, she.

[Maddie Asabrook]

At the very least, let's get something back for this poor human that had to deal with the situation.

[Caroline Turner]

Her penance is being canceled on TikTok.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

She's gonna say something really stupid. Not about this, but she's gonna say something unrelated. And you're gonna be able to watch her world burn down from afar. Are. And there's nothing better.

[Jessica]

And you didn't even have to be the one to do it.

[Caroline Turner]

Your hands dirty, whatsoever.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's the best. You're in a hot spring. Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

That's what I'm manifesting for her is cancellation.

[Maddie Asabrook]

We love it.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm showing my little bit of a petty evil side today.

[Jessica]

I know.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I love it. I love it, love it, love it.

[Caroline Turner]

Let's get into this next one. It had been a busy month, and I was in the midst of yet another whirlwind project. 23 years in the business, and it still had a way of keeping me on my toes. I'd worked with countless clients, but this one, James, was different. He was in his early 40s, which. Just a man.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Ooh.

[Caroline Turner]

Oof.

[Jessica]

Not.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know. That.

[Maddie Asabrook]

We guess. Yeah, I don't think it's gonna work.

[Caroline Turner]

Which I'm. I'm assuming he's straight. She hasn't gotten there, but, like, if he's straight, that's even worse.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

He was in his early 40s, sharp, well dressed, and had the kind of charm that made you feel like you were the only person in the room.

[Jessica]

Oof.

[Caroline Turner]

He'd hired me to design his, quote, forever home, a sprawling modern house nestled on a quiet plot of land. The vision was luxurious, but somehow understated. Something I find myself Enjoying more than I expected. I'd met him at a cafe for our initial consultation, and he'd spoken passionately about creating a space for his family, A place where they could grow, settle, and make memories. He even mentioned a wife, though he didn't say much more.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Hmm.

[Caroline Turner]

Interesting.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Still, I was focused on the work. I'd been doing this for long enough to know how to separate the personal from the professional. But when I Googled him a few days later. Curiosity, I suppose, combined with a name that sounded familiar. I found an unexpected surprise. The wife he had mentioned wasn't listed anywhere in his social media profiles. Instead, there was a photo of him with another woman. The two of them smiling, holding hands at some gala. It wasn't hard to connect the dots. This was his real partner.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. Whoa.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's crazy. I did not say that. Coming.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Whoa.

[Caroline Turner]

So what I'm curious about is he must have mentioned something that didn't align with. Because why would she assume it's a different person, Right. If she'd never met this wife? Maybe we'll get there. But that is my question. I feel.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Feel like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it's interesting because we've never, ever had a client who had a wife who. The wife was not involved.

[Jessica]

Yeah. The wife is always way more involved.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's what's. That's an interesting piece of the puzzle because it's always.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and sometimes the husband will take it over, and those are the worst projects. But at least the wife is still there in the beginning to pick things out.

[Maddie Asabrook]

There's usually some kind of collaboration.

[Caroline Turner]

If there's a couple living in that home, that couple is doing it together, more than likely. Or to Gracie's point, just the woman is sure. Like, the only time that we ever just work with someone is if the husband's not involved.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because he might just not care.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Until it gets to the finance part, and then.

[Caroline Turner]

Then he comes really care.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

But I didn't want to make assumptions. I'd been doing this for long enough to know that appearances could be deceiving. Still, something gnawed at me as I proceeded with the project. Today we were at the stone yard, choosing marble for the kitchen countertop. James was telling me about the veins in the marble and how they tie in with the rest of the design, but my mind was elsewhere, distracted by my discovery. As we walked past the rows of stone, I saw a woman in the distance. Tall, with long dark hair, wearing a pair of oversized sunglasses. She had the Kind of polished, effortless beauty that made her stand out. And then she turned slightly. My stomach sank. It was her. The woman from the photo.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh my gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

The one I had seen with James on LA Line. Holy shit. In the stone yard.

[Jessica]

I'm sweating for this.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's like Cruella de Vil or something like. Oh my God. Yeah. I could literally just like not.

[Caroline Turner]

I could feel the shift in the air. James didn't notice me staring, too busy flipping through a sample book. I couldn't help myself. I took a few slow steps closer, trying not to make it obvious, but unable to look away. There was something so familiar about her, something that made my stomach twist with an uncomfortable certain. And then, as if sensing my gaze, the woman turned, her eyes locked on mine. She froze for a moment, then gave a small, confused smile. Hi, she said, voice warm but with a hint of hesitation. Do I know you? I felt my heart race. The words caught in my throat. I could barely respond before James spoke up from behind me. Hey, babe. Over here. His voice was bright, casual, and utterly unaware of the storm brewing in the space between us. The woman's face shifted, her polite smile slipping for just a fraction of a second, revealing something I couldn't quite. Then she took a step toward James and kissed him on the cheek. A gesture so intimate that it made the air between us feel too tight. It clicked. This wasn't his wife. This was his side piece. The woman he was building this forever home for.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh my God.

[Jessica]

I felt.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And you're just in a stone yard.

[Caroline Turner]

No, like what do you do?

[Jessica]

And this woman is just like smirking like, yeah, I know, I know. You know.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Oh my God. Wearing her big sunglasses. Wow.

[Jessica]

My God.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, that would be chill feeling. I'm not sure how I would handle that.

[Jessica]

I don't think I could handle that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's like where the 90 Day Fiance cameras.

[Caroline Turner]

Also like cheating is one of those things that. No, for me that's a line. And like I don't respect you if you've cheated. And so I would have such a hard time watching this in front of me, even though I'd never met the wife. Totally watching this in front of me happen. But like do you blow? Because if you blow this up, you blow up the whole project.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right? Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

And like you're contract. Most likely. There's not a contract that says if you could. If you cheat on your wife, I'm leaving the project.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Highly doubt it.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean that would be pretty, you know, that's pretty specific.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, but I mean this is Nuts.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I just am picturing myself in a stone yard.

[Caroline Turner]

I would just be like white fit.

[Jessica]

Like I would be frozen.

[Caroline Turner]

I guess I would go into like, actress mode. Get out of there. But I don't. Oh my God. Okay. I felt heat rising in my chest, anger mixing with disbelief. I forced a smile, trying to hide the disillusionment creeping up on me. I didn't realize you two were working together on this, I said, trying to sound neutral. James turned to me, oblivious. Oh, this is Jessica, he said casually. My partner. We're just picking out the final pieces for the kitchen. Partner? The words stung in a way I hadn't expected. Jessica gave me another smile, this one cooler than the first. I'm glad we could finally meet, she said, though I sensed there was nothing friendly in her tone. I nodded, trying to remain professional. It's nice to meet you. My voice felt distant, like I was speaking through a fog. James turned back to the stone samples, already back in business mode as if nothing had happened. But I couldn't shake the feeling that the entire project, this so called forever home, was a lie. This wasn't about creating a family space. It was a monument to deceit.

[Jessica]

See, that's where I would be at. I'd be like, I what?

[Caroline Turner]

He lied to me about everything. I'm lying.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This is like a lie.

[Jessica]

Like I'm in a lie right now.

[Caroline Turner]

And also you have to know that information to do your job correctly.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Absolutely. Just a complete and utter bait and switch.

[Jessica]

Oh, can you imagine just being the designer that, like, knows that he has a wife and you're just, oh my God, I can't.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm really, really trying to think about what I would do because I think I would be forced to take some sort of action.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, and it's like the word partner can have a lot of different meanings.

[Caroline Turner]

But he also was using the verbiage of wife in the beginning. So it's like you would think if it's his wife, which it clearly is not, he would be calling it out.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So you're strategically using partner, clearly, to.

[Caroline Turner]

Hopefully think that she doesn't.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, well, and it's interesting that she said, it's nice to meet you. Like the other woman said, it's nice to meet you. Like she's aware of the situation clearly, but unfortunately the designer doesn't.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, my question is she saw this woman on social media with him. That implies the wife knows, right?

[Jessica]

So maybe it is.

[Caroline Turner]

Is this like an arrangement? Right?

[Maddie Asabrook]

I mean, or the wife just isn't.

[Caroline Turner]

On Social, but, like, where he's just so reckless. I mean, I hope there's an agreement.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

For everyone's sake.

[Jessica]

I really hope so.

[Caroline Turner]

Me too.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's okay, right?

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God, that's wild. Wild.

[Maddie Asabrook]

But then if there's some kind of agreement, you would probably hopefully tell your designer because you're working on the home.

[Caroline Turner]

Like this is for. I mean. Or do you even mention your wife at all?

[Maddie Asabrook]

I'm doing this project.

[Jessica]

Well, yeah. Because he said he was wanting it for his family, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Right.

[Jessica]

Does he have children? Is he planning on having children with this?

[Caroline Turner]

Or does he have a whole. It sounds like he has a whole other family.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Never know.

[Caroline Turner]

This is like men in, like the 40s and 50s, if they traveled for work, they had a whole second family because there was no Internet and they had no idea about each other would.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Never, ever be crossed.

[Caroline Turner]

But this is like, way too often.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This is 20, 25.

[Jessica]

But I also wonder, like, I wonder because he says my partner. So, like, what if they, like, work together?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. What if they're, like, posing as business partners?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Maybe that. To the.

[Jessica]

The wife, like, they work together and so she thinks, like, oh, like, it could be like his assistant or something.

[Caroline Turner]

Interesting. To the wife, you mean?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

There's like some. Something information here that we don't have, clearly.

[Caroline Turner]

And clearly that the designer doesn't have.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

As we continue to select marble, I did my best to keep my composure. The truth, however, settled heavily in my chest. I'd been working with a man who was building a dream for someone else. Someone who wasn't himself, his wife, someone he had chosen to build this life with. And here I was helping him craft that very dream. I'd been in the business long enough to know that not everything was what it seemed. But I had never expected it to sting this much. After a long silence, James turned to me, smiling as he held up two samples of marble. Which do you think works best? I stared at the stone, at his face, and tried to push everything else out of my mind. The one on the left, I said quietly. James nodded, pleased with the decision. Great. I knew you get it. But all I could think was, I don't understand you at all.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. At the very least.

[Jessica]

And the fact that he says, I knew you'd get it. Like, there's a little.

[Caroline Turner]

Uh huh. Yeah, like, little undertone, that double entendre.

[Maddie Asabrook]

This is really wild, you guys.

[Caroline Turner]

I am really one of our crazier stories.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I. I am genuinely speechless.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. And like, the money behind all of this Stuff too. It's like you're spending a lot of money hiring a designer and building or.

[Caroline Turner]

Doing a home for your side piece.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Or like, kids that exist.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Question mark.

[Jessica]

Oh, my God, the guilt I would have as. Just. As a woman and like, the designer. Like, I couldn't do it. Like, I really don't think I could.

[Caroline Turner]

Are we calling the wife?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. Ooh. Do you have an arrangement that you're aware of?

[Jessica]

Yeah. Just wanna ask quick question.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Cause that's an option. It doesn't have to be, but.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. Okay. But you're taking a massive risk by doing that. Because if they do have an arrangement and the wife just, like, doesn't really want to know anything about it and she calls. The wife is going to call her husband and be like, what in the. We haven't. But, like, I think because there's more sheer than designer.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Designers involved and there's a project involved, and it's.

[Caroline Turner]

I think he fires her.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

If she does that. Because if there is an arrangement, the wife calls him. If there's not an arrangement, I think the wife still calls. Like, he's gonna get told. So I think it would have to be, like, could I continue on with this project?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes. In my moral code.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think I would have to. It sounds bad. I would have to look at my contract and see, like, if I can get out of it and how I can get out of it without having to, like, forfeit money that they've paid us thus far. Cause that's the thing. Like, you don't wanna have to pay a cheater like that, so. But I also genuinely don't think I could have meetings with him. I think I would be forced to, like, sabotage.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, and character goes further than business. It's like, if your character's up for grabs in any capacity, you know, like, it's hard to sign on to that kind of contract.

[Jessica]

And especially with someone like that. Like, I feel like clearly he's good at keeping secrets and has a lot of money. So, like, my first thought would be, like, he could destroy me.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, totally.

[Jessica]

I think I would have to, like, fake my death. Honestly, that's how I get out.

[Caroline Turner]

If anything, maybe I would just be like. Like, I'm really sorry I'm shutting my business. Or I would give him some sort of, like, crazy. I. I don't think I would say I'm getting out of this because of xyz.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I think my plan would be go to my attorney, look at our contract, figure out how I can get out of this. And then once I have a plan, quit and then tell the wife.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

So that way you're get yourself out.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Clearly.

[Jessica]

And then you can.

[Caroline Turner]

And because he can't really do anything if you have like back and forth of like, I'm stepping away.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Because of xyz, my mother's sick or something. Like make up something. And then. Then you can kind of blow things up because he doesn't have any. There's nothing he can do to your business except for tell everyone. But if he's going to tell everyone.

[Jessica]

He'S outing himself, he's gonna have to tell them.

[Caroline Turner]

What is that she did.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

So it's mutually assured destruction.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Jessica]

It's a great way to put it.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I feel like that's really the only option.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I don't know. Unless you're just like, I'm cool to check my character and I'll just continue on. But that would be impossible.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And she's been in the business for a long time, so it sounds like.

[Caroline Turner]

It's not like her first year in business. She needs this job.

[Maddie Asabrook]

She has some regular. So.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And I mean, you know, if she took a retainer, she'll be able to keep her retainer. I mean, I think that to your point, it's about character. And this one decision could really affect the rest of your business.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because what happens if this comes out and you. It's found out that you co signed this? Essentially.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Jessica]

Like you knew about it.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Your karma worked.

[Caroline Turner]

Because this will come out. If there's not an arrangement, he will get caught.

[Jessica]

Yeah. There's no way.

[Caroline Turner]

He's being way too reckless.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Right. Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

And so you'd be putting yourself in some pretty. Pretty precarious. And it doesn't say where, like what city this is, but in. So I'm thinking Chicago. And Chicago's so small again.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well. And even the big cities are so small. I mean, we're a big. We're the third biggest city.

[Caroline Turner]

We're the third biggest city and it is so small.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So, I mean, I think it's just kind of the world we live in.

[Jessica]

A bomb we didn't go off.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. Especially with all the social. So. Yeah. This is wild, you guys.

[Caroline Turner]

This is crazy wild. Okay. The penance. My God, where to begin? I think. I think that penance. Let's start with the designer. I mean, I think she needs a therapy session.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes. For sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Because I would be so fucking triggered personally having been cheated on. I would be like, not well handling this. Maybe if she doesn't have experience in it. Maybe she's handling it a little bit better than I would, but I think therapy.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Good attorney.

[Caroline Turner]

A good attorney. Take a weekend off and try to not think about it, and then.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, get it handled so you don't have to get taken down. Anything else that tornadoes.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I mean, there's not. I also think you gotta tell her.

[Jessica]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you have to.

[Caroline Turner]

If you consider yourself a girl's girl, have some conversation.

[Maddie Asabrook]

You don't have to be like, hey, this is what's happening. But, like, ask a question.

[Jessica]

Anonymous.

[Caroline Turner]

Anonymous email. Yeah.

[Jessica]

Send her something with the mistress's name on it.

[Caroline Turner]

Like something.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. Or I mean, information up.

[Caroline Turner]

You know, they say that, like, other women, when they know they're the other woman, will leave, like a lipstick behind or a barrette or something like that. I wonder if there's something that could be, like, a sign that's not obviously from her. Now we're talking about, like, espionage.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Like, what can you.

[Caroline Turner]

Following the client to leave something by. In my head, I'm like, they're in a gym locker room. Like, that's insane. I'm insane. But I mean, I wonder if there is a way. I think you got. You've got to get that off your conscience and let the people who are involved know, and then they can handle it how they want.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, totally. At least so you can feel good about it at the end.

[Caroline Turner]

You don't sleep at night knowing that you did the right thing.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Resolve your hand in the situation you didn't want to be in in the first place.

[Caroline Turner]

Penance for the client. I think he deserves to be castrated. Sorry. No more for you. 1,000 years in.

[Jessica]

You're done, Period.

[Caroline Turner]

You're welcome to work and keep making money for all of the women you've wronged.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I don't know if there's another option.

[Caroline Turner]

Or a chastity belt of some sort. I don't want to get that intense, but, like, he needs to be put down, essentially.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. Hate that poor designer. We are wishing you.

[Jessica]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

All of the good vibes about handling this situation. And also, please, like, call me because I want to chat about this right in again. And let us know what you do, because I need closure.

[Jessica]

Yeah, we need to know what happens to that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

We need a round table for the.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Can you come to our round table? You're invited.

[Caroline Turner]

Questions? You ready? Yes. First, how do you stay inspired and keep your creativity fresh when working on multiple projects at once? It's gonna sound kind of Glib, because I think this is like the answer that everyone gives. But I really go back to books and magazines from at least 10 years, 20 years before because then I know I'm able to. To like, I'm not following trends and I'm able to something about flipping through a magazine. And even if the room is not at all what you're designing, there can be one little detail that then creates the entire room totally. And that happens to me often. I'll find one little thing and then we can run with it for sure. So I think that is a big piece. I also think that vacation, like tra. No, I shouldn't say vacation. Travel.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I was gonna say travel too. I feel like that's always really just. Just the best way to gather more information and things you haven't seen before, things you haven't tasted before. Absolutely smelled before.

[Caroline Turner]

I also think this is going to sound really weird, but almost thinking of your projects as like individual people.

[Jessica]

That was literally what I was just about to say. I was like, if you think of each project as a different person.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. It's much easier to make sure they're not the same. And because if you think about them as a person, which, you know, these homes, like, do kind of end up feeling like living beings, honestly. They're all. They have quirks. There's all different things. They were born. I mean, I'm getting a little crazy, but like, they were built at different era.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's true.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, that's the thing. Like, if we're working on a 1912 Tudor and then a brand new build, I have no problem making the two, you know, totally inspiration for both. And they're from two completely different places. I think it can get a little, little bit redundant if you are a designer that you're doing the same thing over and over again. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Like, there are certainly designers who are making a crazy amount of money doing the same thing over and over and over again because they're. That's. The people come to them for their.

[Maddie Asabrook]

That's their style.

[Caroline Turner]

I would have the hardest time doing that because what I find fun about this job is getting to try new and different things and from different eras and different countries. I mean, it's just more interesting.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So that's why you're a very talented designer.

[Jessica]

Exactly. I mean, I feel like you always say you design for the client 1000%. That's a separate. Especially because, I mean, early on we were working on the North Shore.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

And all of our projects were around.

[Caroline Turner]

Like a three block.

[Jessica]

So that can, I feel like, would very easily make you lose your inspiration because you're kind of doing the same style homes and everything and in the.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Same neighborhood too, especially.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I do think. Yeah, it's. It's the client and then the house on its own as a client, essentially. I think, think that if you can think about it that way, it also just makes me more. It's just more sentimental. Like, I think that if you're designing for the people and for the individual homes, it becomes something special on its own. And you're not having to force it to be original and special. It just is because of how you did the process well.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And it transcends. It transcends all the, like, style trends and things.

[Caroline Turner]

The best of 2025, like, shut up.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes. It's lasting and it's actually for the person you're designing it, like, be in love and have their daily lives affected. Absolutely.

[Caroline Turner]

What's the most valuable lesson you've learned over the years about balancing client preferences with your own design vision?

[Jessica]

Oh, this is a good question.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think I've said this before, so I handle it differently in the different parts of the project because often I've learned. I used to come right out of the gate and be really like, this is what I want. This is what it should be. I've found that clients are going to come into it with their own preconceived ideas and notions, and you have to. To let them do that in the beginning a little bit and then show them something better.

[Jessica]

Yeah, they kind of have to gain your trust.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Then it becomes a more collaborative.

[Caroline Turner]

I put that we certainly have had clients where they'll be like, oh, I wanted this tile. And I'll be like, great, I get what you're going for there. And then you give them something more bespoke, because that's our job, is showing them things that they couldn't have found without us. I think when you just say okay to your client, that's the issue. That's when it becomes you're doing them a disservice, though.

[Maddie Asabrook]

100%.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're almost there assisting.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Already know they like it. Why? What are you there for?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it's like, you shouldn't have hired me. This is pointless.

[Maddie Asabrook]

You're literally there to just buy the tile at that point.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes, exactly.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Creatively so.

[Caroline Turner]

I think in the. And also, we start with inspiration imagery, so we can really hone in and then typically they'll give us feedback on the presentation, and then we're all on the same page, so it's a little bit easier. I mean, I would say my most valuable lesson is letting them have a little bit more say in the beginning, get all of their ideas out, and then showing. Not telling them how we can do it better. And they will end up going with your idea.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

They just don't know what they don't know.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. They've been heard and you understand, like, what the basis is of why they're making the selections. And then you need to hone it because that's your craft.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes.

[Maddie Asabrook]

And that's why you're being hired.

[Caroline Turner]

What I'll do is they'll say to me or they'll give me a tile and I'll be like, what do you like about this?

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And if they say, I like the linear detail, I'll then pull tiles that are better but have that linear element.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

So I think that's a way to make them feel heard while having it be done in, like, a really design forward, interesting, bespoke way.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally. And having good sources too. So you have.

[Caroline Turner]

So you have things to show them.

[Maddie Asabrook]

You have enough and you have, like, somebody in your pocket who can make you.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Absolutely.

[Caroline Turner]

I didn't mean the rep. The importance of reps. It really is true. Okay. Well, this has been so fun.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So fun.

[Caroline Turner]

But before we go, our tagline for CTI is things that make you feel. What's something that made you feel recently?

[Maddie Asabrook]

I would say travels to new places and it was, you know, a really kind of more health forward kind of trip.

[Caroline Turner]

Nice.

[Maddie Asabrook]

So I would say we went over New Year's and it was like a way to kind of start the year fresh.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I love that.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Kind of get some career perspective and you know what the goals are for what we want to do with this year and this life.

[Caroline Turner]

Sometimes taking a step back is the thing that is necessary in order to be able to make decisions moving forward.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

It's hard because you want to just make the decision and move on.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Don't knew you ever taking that time. You'll be glad you did.

[Maddie Asabrook]

It's helpful.

[Caroline Turner]

It's for sure. For sure.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yay. I don't normally answer when we ask guests, but mine is the inauguration. I am not doing well.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Yeah. That is a head in the sand situation over here.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. If anyone has started started an interior design from in another country, I'm so serious, please write in the Facebook group and we can chat because we're not closing, but we may be opening an idea somewhere else. Somewhere else looking really good right now. Okay. Okay. Seriously, thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Number one fan of Caroline Turner Interior.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. I'm your number one fan. People are probably like, shut the up.

[Maddie Asabrook]

I know. Same. I'm literally like, have you ever done Caroline?

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like we wouldn't have gotten through the industry without each other.

[Maddie Asabrook]

Well, I'm grateful for you daily.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you all for listening. Very grateful for you, as always. Before we go, please, please write in your crazy design stories. If you don't want to write in, call me. The number is on our website, and we can chat through, and I'll write the confession for you. Until then, peace be with you.

[Maddie Asabrook]

By.