A (2:47)

Yep.

B (2:48)

And when I. About four years in, she had said, you know, it's time for you to go. Go do something else. You gotta go to college. You've gotta do something. And I was like, huh. So she kicked me out of her office. And so I went to college at Ringling in Florida, which was the closest, like, design school. And I started doing that. And when I got in the program for interior design, I realized I had already learned everything from working in her office. So I was completely bored.

A (3:16)

I was gonna say what you listed was like, what, the first. At least two years of design school.

B (3:21)

Totally. And I had, you know, like, I was doing. This is back in the days of I was manually drafting floor plans and using a blueprint machine and doing elevations and doing bedding design custom by drawing things out. So, like, I had already learned all of that. And I got into the program and I was like, terrible. Like, I. I'm bored out of my mind. So I switched to graphic design and was bad at it. And I mean, like, I had the understanding of creative direction, but I couldn't execute the graphic design part. And I'd always had a camera in my hand my whole life. Like, that was a childhood thing. I'd take pictures at the dinner table. So I switched to the photo program. First I was doing a double major, and then I wound up switching over to their photo program and I began shooting women in their homes. Cool. So my senior thesis of my college degree was in their spaces. And this is back in 2007. Yeah. And so I. It became a focus. I graduated and I met my husband while I was in college there in Sarasota. I had wanted to move to California. My. My dad grew up in Ventura, which is north of la. And so my. He has a gigantic family and they all still live there. And my mom and my dad met in Ventura, so it was like I had a deep connection to there. And I spent my childhood going to visit family. And when I met my husband, he'd also wanted to move to Los Angeles. So we packed up our car and $500 to our names and our dog and drove across the country and moved to la. And I thought that I would get there and be a famous photographer right away, of course, duh. And I got there and it was so saturated and it was like at the time, pretty much a man's world. So I wound up assisting and taking every kind of job that wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing, but it put me into those Worlds. I was like an assistant in a product studio. So I worked for Gary's of Beverly Hills doing, like, set style, you know, like all kinds of stuff. And then I moved into doing. I worked as a retoucher at Nasty Gal.

A (5:22)

Oh, my God. An era of time.

B (5:26)

An era during the Girlboss era.

A (5:28)

Wow.

B (5:29)

And I learned to retouch really fast during that time. And I worked as a editorial director in house agent for this fashion photographer at the time who kind of taught me. Then that's where I wound up connecting with celebrity PR and getting to understand big budget production. And so then from there, Catherine Power. From who? What? Where?

A (5:50)

Yeah.

B (5:51)

Reached out to me on LinkedIn.

A (5:52)

And now married. Right?

B (5:54)

And now married as well. And she's. She did. Oh, she's done so many.

A (5:57)

And she's done a million things.

B (5:58)

Yeah, a million things. So she reached out to me on LinkedIn, which at the time, I was like, is this real? Because I wasn't really, like, hip to what was going on with that stuff. And so she said, you know, you have a really strangely diverse background, and we have this position we're trying to fill, and it's a creative producer. So it was over. Who? What? Where? Birdie and My Domain, which was their three properties at the time. This is 2014. I want to say that was the.

A (6:23)

Era of, like, I'm tearing through my domain. Like, it is my bible. I mean, it is that 2014 is, like, the perfect time to be. I know, at that company. That is incredible.

B (6:35)

Well, and at the time, there was only, like, I don't know, 30 people working there. It wasn't. There was a small office off La Cienega, and I came in and I was, like, producing for all three properties across branded and editorial. So, like, we were at the time starting co branded digital marketing, which was a whole world and like a whole different ballgame. The Blogger Network and the. All of that stuff was going on. And I was clueless. Like, I, you know, I pretended I knew what I was doing, but I was completely clueless with that world.

A (7:03)

Trial by fire a little bit, right?

B (7:05)

Totally. And so I learned to produce, really produce. During that. When you were doing. I'd like. I think my first year there, I produced, like, 120 shoots. And at this time, nobody really knew I shot because I was kind of, like, hiding it. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't feeling like I was good enough to be doing it.

A (7:22)

Imposter syndrome a bit, maybe.

B (7:23)

Totally. And they were always hiring male photographers at the time, and I was like, you know, I wish women would come work. So we started hiring females to come work, and we started doing different things. And I wound up. I don't remember how it even happened, but somehow I wound up shooting something. Cause I was like, well, I can take pictures of this. It'll save us budget or something. Maybe something.

A (7:42)

Somebody dropped out or something. I'm always like, hey, does anybody. Can anybody shoot a camera when something happens in the office?

B (7:48)

And when they realized that I could shoot, then I started getting to shoot projects for them. And it was. I was shooting for who, what, where? Birdie, My domain and doing all of that stuff. And a creative director came in, and she started realizing that the my domain stuff that I was doing seemed to be what was really strong and what I seemed to be doing be the most passionate about. And so I wound up becoming a photo director there and got to do some pretty cool stuff. And then they laid me off. And when they did, I was devastated and then terrified, and then realized I had this whole network. And the night before that happened, I had worked on this big party that was like an important part of. I wanted to get certain people placed in the publication. And at that party, I met a whole bunch of people that night. And it was like one of those entertaining stories, you know, that they used to do on my domain. And the next day. And then we exchanged information the next day, I reached out to everybody and was like, well, I've gone freelance because I didn't want to tell you. And I wound up getting hired right away. And that was like, bam. As soon as that happened, it was pretty much like a forward trajectory of shooting. And I haven't stopped since. And it's been 10 years, almost 10 years, I think, since that happened. So incredible. It was really wild. It was like a. It just happened. And then I met. And actually, I learned of you through Paige.

A (9:12)

I love Paige so much.

B (9:14)

I met on my first real ARC Digest shoot. So we kind of came up together in that world as well, which was really fun.

A (9:20)

Well, and that's how I first heard about you, was also through Paige, because I remember I met her at, like, a Christmas party, and then we followed each other on Instagram, and I saw it, and I was like, wait, Architectural Digest? What's happening? What's happening? And so I saw your work, and I was like, wow, she is incredible. And then, yeah, I've been following since then. But it's so fun when you meet another creative and then they open you up to a world of other creatives that you never would have met otherwise.

B (9:44)

So true.

A (9:45)

Which it sounds like what Katherine did. I mean, there's people in my career trajectory as well that I can be like. If I hadn't met that one person, who knows where I would be, where my career would be now? And thank God I don't have to find out. It's also funny because I was working at Kelly Wearstler on la cienega 2014. 2015. Yes.

B (10:04)

Okay.

A (10:05)

So we were there, right. At the same time, which also, I feel like we were. I mean, I was 20, so it was like the time to be in LA. It was right before Influencer, I feel like, really took over and, like, you could get into any party. It was still kind of easy to rub elbows with cool people. And it wasn't. So, like, if you have a million followers, you're getting in, and if you.

B (10:29)

Don'T, you're not 100%.

A (10:31)

No one really cared. And it was. I couldn't live in LA now, but, wow, what a time to live in la. It was amazing, right?

B (10:36)

And if we hadn't done it, we wouldn't be able to do it. Exactly. And that's the whole thing is, like, there's no way I would be where I was at now without all of those things.

A (10:44)

No, absolutely not.

B (10:45)

And I'm so grateful for it all the time. Like, I just, you know, I went.

A (10:48)

Through, I'm certain, a better photographer and a better creative director. To have all of that experience under your belt, that's incredible.

B (10:56)

It's pretty cool, you know, so it does help because then I'm able to. I work with a lot of brands, too, and help them develop their creative vision just on, like, as something I don't really talk much about, but it helps because I kind of know what everybody's looking for at this point, so I know how to work the co branded and do things that doesn't look branded for editorial. Yeah.

A (11:14)

Yeah. Which I mean, I feel like, is where we're going more and more of, like, the subtle branding and the subtle advertising and, like, because people are getting more and more savvy that they're being sold out.

B (11:24)

Absolutely.

A (11:25)

So I think we have to nurture that a little bit for better or worse, to be, like, more nuanced.

B (11:30)

Totally. And it pays the bills. So.

A (11:32)

Absolutely. We all have to eat.

B (11:35)

We all have to eat.

A (11:36)

For sure. For sure.

B (11:37)

Sure.

A (11:38)

Sure. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure. I had 30 different tabs docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right then I tried Programa, and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your project schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning an admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. What's a vice you partake in?

B (12:54)

I used to have lots of vices. And I mean, like, I don't drink anymore. I don't smoke anymore. I spend a lot of money at the farmer's market. And I have to admit, Erewhon has been my vice for years now that I don't have that. Always accessible. But it's a weird vice to have.

A (13:16)

I think Erewhon count as a vice.

B (13:18)

It's embarrassing and I roll my eyes about it all the time, but I gotta say, I mean, like, is. It's pretty good. So.

A (13:24)

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason that it's, you know, it is what it is, right?

B (13:28)

Yeah. Yes. But no, I. I think that's a good one. I used to have lots of vices.

A (13:33)

I hear that more often than not.

B (13:34)

Oh, I will crystallize ginger. That's my really weird vice I have. I always. I'm surprised I don't have a bag sitting next to me right now, but I almost always have a bag of crystallized ginger with me. It's a thing. Like on set, people find me on my stand with. It's a. It's a whole thing. Yeah, that's my weird thing.

A (13:54)

Okay, that counts for sure.

B (13:55)

Now you know. Okay.

A (13:55)

And now I know what to do for Christmas.

B (13:58)

It's true. It's really weird.

A (13:59)

Yeah. Everybody take notes. Okay. That's amazing. I love it. Also, I need to get more wholesome vices is what I'm realizing.

B (14:07)

It's okay. You have time.

A (14:09)

Yes. Yes, I do. Okay, Confession time. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. A few years ago, my firm was hired to design a home for a very recognizable actress. Big moment for me, like Major calling my mom excitement. But from day one, I'm told I won't actually be speaking to her. Everything has to go through her assistant. Fine. Annoying, but fine. And I'm sure you're like, yep, in there. Definitely not what I'm used to, but par for the course. When working with high profile individuals, I'm told the assistant comes across extremely put together, calm, professional, knows everyone's schedule, speaks like she's been running this household for years. She tells me she and the actress are very aligned on taste, so I just assume she knows what she's talking about. I send over my first design boards. Warm, layered, comfortable, without being sloppy. And the assistant says it's a good start, but maybe not exactly the direction her boss wants. Instead of explaining further, she sends me a Pinterest board. And listen, it wasn't awful. It looked somewhat curated. Lots of neutrals, organic shapes, soft textures. But once you scrolled more than a few pins deep, you realize the styles were all over the place. Some super clean and minimal, others very rustic, others more glam. Nothing insane enough to throw red flags, just a little inconsistent in a someone's trying too hard kind of way. Still, everything felt close enough to possibly be the actress's taste. So I adjusted my boards. Then the assistant requested more edits and more. Every round just slightly different. Not wrong, just directionless, like running in circles, but making it look productive. I voiced my concern, but she seemed so confident that I didn't have a leg to stand on. I did what she asked, but quietly documented everything in writing. By install week, all those little assistant LED micro shifts started catching up. A wood tone she swore would be perfect clashed with everything once it arrived. A rug she insisted on was scratchier and darker than it looked online. Some of the pieces looked fine individually, but weird together, like they came from three different interpretations of the same aesthetic. None of it was catastrophic, but it all needed fixing. So I spent the entire week in problem solving mode. Swapping furniture between rooms, reordering light fixtures overnight, steaming, styling, doing anything I could to make it feel intentional. And honestly, it started to come together. Not my cleanest install, but definitely salvageable. Then the actress arrived. First time I have ever met her. She walks in, looks around, and her face just drops. Not in a dramatic tantrum kind of way, more like she was genuinely trying to figure out what she was looking at. She touched fabrics, looked at the furniture, walked through the room slowly, like she was solving a puzzle she had not agreed to. I could tell instantly she hated it. Not because it was bad, but because it wasn't her. The assistant went absolutely still. You could practically see her calculating how much trouble she was in. The actress left politely, and the next morning, I got a short message from the management team and saying the assistant would no longer be involved. No explanation necessary. A few days later, I finally speak directly with the actress, and she tells me her actual style. Warm, simple, understated and cozy. And suddenly, everything makes sense. None of the Pinterest chaos matched her personality at all. Once she was involved, the project finally had direction. Things clicked. The redesign went smoothly. It was almost funny how easy everything became when someone with the actual taste was making the decisions. So now, anytime someone tells me a CL assistant will handle everything, I take a deep breath, remember this project, and decline.

B (17:57)

Ooh.

A (18:00)

So, yeah, yeah.

B (18:02)

Yep, yep. This tracks.

A (18:07)

Yeah, I mean, I. It's. It's interesting because, you know, living in Chicago, we don't really have a, like, celebrity culture. Like, there just aren't that many celebrities here. Or if they are, they don't really act like celebrities because Chicago just doesn't really fuck with it like that. So with that being said, I have such a hard time imagining designing someone's home and them not being involved. That is mind blowing to me. But I have to assume you've worked on jobs, you've shot jobs where the designer worked with an assistant, not a celebrity. Is that common in your experience?

B (18:43)

I have to be careful on how I position this because I've had to sign a lot of NDAs in my life, but I have to say, it's not as common as you. Typically, from my experience, the actors or actresses really like to be involved in the process. I have seen it go the other way and where the assistants are trying so hard to please that they think they understand, and it's disastrous in many ways. Or like, the celebrity themselves is actually great and their team surrounding them is challenging and there's some sort of miscommunication happening, or there's been times where, like, the assistant has said that nobody's allowed to touch the furniture but them on a shoot, and it's like, you can't move a pillow. How's that gonna work? Trust me, it's real weird. Takes extra long.

A (19:45)

I was gonna say that. Must take extra days. That is. Our whole team is moving things On a shoot to make it function.

B (19:54)

Oh, yeah. That's what you do. Wild. Yeah. So that's not surprising. I've actually. I have. Being in the industry as long as I have my friends usually come from being on set. So, like, that's just how that works. So I have friends who are actresses and who have had assistants who try to integrate themselves too much into their lives and feel that the relationship. Because it's such an intimate relationship.

A (20:19)

It really is.

B (20:20)

And it's usually. The assistants are typically younger and entering in the industry, and I think that a lot of times they become more personally attached and it becomes that type of a situation. So. Ooh, that would be a tough one. Yes.

A (20:38)

Especially because I have to assume that, you know, the designer was paid twice.

B (20:44)

To do her job twice, which, I mean, hey, great.

A (20:47)

But no, for the designer, I guess that was stressful. Oh, my God. And also, I would feel so, like, well, I gotta do it right this time. She's paying me a second time. And then you almost feel bad as the designer. Of course, like, I did help the assistant make these. You know, I think that's a tricky position to be in.

B (21:09)

It is. And you have to be paid for your time, but at the same time, you want somebody to be happy. So that's complex. Yes.

A (21:16)

I think the juggling of that and, like, how you. I think I would have to give her a disc. The second time. I would have to give her a disc. But then, like, to the designer's point, she was like, I documented it all. I told the assistant that wasn't gonna work. So, like.

B (21:31)

Right. Yeah.

A (21:32)

I mean, what are you supposed to do in that situation?

B (21:35)

And ultimately the actress allowed that to happen.

A (21:39)

Yep.

B (21:40)

So, like, that's. Yeah. I mean, that sucks.

A (21:43)

That just sucks. I think something that could have been. And who knows? Maybe the actress was, like, on location for eight months. Like, there could be something that obviously, we don't know. I have to assume this person also didn't want to give us too much information. Cause I assume they also signed an NDA. But based on my experience working with high profile, I can assume that sometimes it does come down to, like, not being able to get into communication with the person. Like, I. From experience, we have clients who are not in showbiz, but of big, important jobs, and sometimes you can't get ahold of them for two weeks. And you're like, well, either we're gonna pause or we're gonna make decisions on their behalf. And it's a little bit like. And if your whole Job is to make decisions on behalf of someone who's not that accessible. Yikes. Number one, I cannot. I would be so stressed every minute.

B (22:34)

Of the day that I was reaching the wrong decision.

A (22:37)

But also, yeah, like, things are stacked against you a little bit in that scenario. I do think the actor's pro could have checked in a bit more to be like, hey, can I see the boards that the designer's doing? Can I look at, like, what's been approved? Could I see just like, xyz? You know, as someone who manages people, ultimately it's my responsibility to make sure that I'm doing the managing. And so I do think that there's probably a ball was dropped, like, in all arenas, it seems.

B (23:10)

Well, and I. I get it in a certain aspect, like having. And I didn't understand this until I started having friends who were high profile. And I get to see the other side of it. And the hardest thing is, I think, is that they're so constantly surrounded by people who need something from them, like, at all times. So it's not like this glamorous. I mean, it is. There are glamorous parts to it. It's not the same glamorous thing that everybody thinks it is. It's a lot more of, like, once you get to a certain level, your life just isn't even really your own anymore. Like, it's. You've got so many people who need things, so many people who need an answer, and every little thing becomes just completely overwhelming. So in that aspect, I imagine, especially if somebody's, like, in the middle of being present for a role, your whole self has to be put into that identity, which sucks, because I think a lot of times a lot of the people. And to generalize here, because I'm sure this isn't everybody, but a lot of people who get into personal assistant work also are hoping. And in la, this is a pretty common thing where, like, the waitresses are also trying to become an actor. Waitress is trying to become. Right. So every person there isn't doing the thing that they're doing for the passion of it. Most of them are doing it as a stepping stone, which is valid and.

A (24:28)

Necessary, but also creates a dynamic that's. That can be difficult.

B (24:33)

Yes, it can. And I think that most of the people I know who are higher profile are usually typically very sensitive and they want to trust and want to really understand, you know, they want to feel like they can put their trust and they've been sold a thing, and so they're like, okay, great. This person Seems great. And of course, I have to just surrender and let it be.

A (24:52)

I have to trust. I have to let it, because I have no other choice. Yeah, I mean, that's. You know, it's true. Because most people who go into show business are artists at their core. Not all. Yes, but most.

B (25:06)

Most.

A (25:07)

And so to your point, very sensitive, very personable sometimes, but sometimes very internal.

B (25:14)

Ye.

A (25:14)

And so I think that can be a struggle with, like, being in a public position and being public facing when all you want to do is be an introvert.

B (25:24)

Right.

A (25:24)

I have it on the tiniest of the smallest scales, having a team of 10. And, like, it does feel like someone needs something from me at all times. And I can only imagine that being my. Like, in. When I'm in my home in my pajamas, someone's asking me, can you sign this check? Can you do this? Because that's the only time they have asked me. Like, that's a difficult dynamic.

B (25:50)

It really is. And it's just. I don't think people realize what. What actually comes with that. I don't even think that the artist realizes that when they sign up for it, you know, Like, I just think.

A (25:59)

It becomes this, like, grows bigger than anybody else.

B (26:05)

Right. And, like, I have it on a small scale too, so I always think. And I get overwhelmed all the time, so I think, like, what a. I can't. And also, most artists are kind of control freaks a little bit too, because we like what we like in the way that we like it. And so. And that's why you only imagine. Yes, I can only imagine. The surrender of everybody involved in that situation is just like, ugh, all of it. Just. I feel for the shiner.

A (26:29)

Yes, exactly. Yeah. I feel for everyone involved.

B (26:33)

Cause also, imposter syndrome is so real. And like, imagine getting your big job with this, like, celebrity to design their thing, and then you're like, oh, God, they hate me. I'm terrible.

A (26:43)

Yes, of course. It would be so easy to turn it internally. Honestly, it's kind of a miracle, in my opinion, that they immediately knew it was the assistant and not the designer.

B (26:55)

Yeah.

A (26:56)

Like, another way that could have gone is if the assistant was more ingrained, it sounds like, than you are. Having never met the boss. That's a difficult position to be in. The assistant can say, well, this is what they designed, and you're the one that's fired, not the assistant. So, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it kind of seems like it worked out for the designer that she ended up being with this actress and sort of have it be the experience she wanted it to be. Penance wise. I think we've generally reviewed it, but it sounds like that maybe that assistant needs a bit more of like a check in assistant actress needs a bit more of a check in situation. And also maybe it's just not the right fit, you know, because it doesn't seem like they fully got ultimately what the actress wants. And I also think it's a bit of a moral of the story is like, sometimes it's just easier to do it yourself. And I learned that that doesn't mean that my employees are doing anything wrong. It just means that sometimes I find myself trying to delegate something and I'm like, this is just. No, I have to be the one to do this. I just have to buckle down and do it. But when you're in the delegating headspace all the time, you almost delegate more than you should. Which I feel like is sometimes the opposite of the problem that other people. But also, if it's your home, your personal home, like, you should want to be involved to spend your personal time and make it something that's you. Frankly, I would feel so uncomfortable living in a home that my assistant designed.

B (28:31)

I mean, true.

A (28:32)

That would feel so weird to me.

B (28:34)

Unless it was like your lifelong best friend that's known you forever. Those are actually the assistant relationships that I've seen working really well Is like a lifelong best friend who just understands.

A (28:45)

The person so deeply with you. They're not before. Yes.

B (28:49)

Right.

A (28:49)

Yes.

B (28:50)

Those are the ones that I've always noticed work the best. But yeah, I mean, I think everybody kind of got their penance on that one. There were some big lessons learned across the board. Like sometimes we just have to learn big lessons the hard way all the way around.

A (29:03)

Yep, yep. And hopefully this keeps somebody else from making this decision. If someone's like, will you work with my assistant? Maybe reconsider.

B (29:10)

Everybody who watches this is like, no, actually, I think that we need to have a conversation.

A (29:15)

I will work with you and only you.

B (29:17)

Or at least like once in a while.

A (29:19)

Yes. Can you come for like four meetings? Four big meetings over the process, But I'll manage with your assistant otherwise.

B (29:26)

Or require a sign off from the actual talent versus from their assistant.

A (29:32)

For sure, for sure, for sure, for sure. Confession number Two for two. Two, two for two. Let's do this. So early in my business, I get contacted by this older bachelor who wants his penthouse renovated. Big job, great budget, indoor pool. The kind of project I definitely needed to land on the phone. He's a little blunt and kind of monotone, but honestly, nothing unusual for certain types of clients. I go in for the first walkthrough. The place is huge, but everything somehow manages to look both expensive and cheap at the same time. Everything is black or brown or some weird shiny finish that feels like a nightclub from 2008, which I can picture it perfectly. Me too.

B (30:17)

I just. Yeah.

A (30:19)

Yes. We finally made our way toward the end indoor pool, which you get to by passing through this mudroom locker room situation. And on the lockers I notice size labels. Extra, extra, small, extra small, small and medium. I play dumb and ask what the labels mean. He gives me this overly casual man to man tone, which is funny because I'm a very obviously gay man standing there holding a clipboard and says the lockers are stocked with swimsuits and lingerie for the women he brings home from the clothes. So they, quote, have options if they want to swim or stay over. I was already dying inside. But then he adds, completely seriously. Honestly, I was just gonna go up to small, but sometimes they wanna bring their chubby friend, so I added a medium jail actually hanging like, let's put him up in the square. And this is the exact moment when I fully noticed just how not in a position this man is to be criticizing anyone's looks. Like s, let's be realistic. But I need the job badly. So I just nod and move on. A couple weeks later, I need to go back for final measurements. I'm told he's out of town, but the housekeeper will let me in. Fine. Except the door opens and instead of a housekeeper, there's this very young woman in boxers and a giant T shirt. She doesn't say a word, just opens the door, walks away, and disappears into the apartment. I stand there for a second like, okay, and then decide to just do my measurements and leave. Not my circus, not my monkey. Project gets finished. He loves it. I get paid. I move on. And honestly try to forget the whole locker room situation. But the craziest part. A couple months later, I'm out to dinner with friends. Someone brings a girl I've never met, super friendly, very chatty, just jumping into the conversation. At some point, we all start talking about random chaotic dating experiences and she goes, oh my God. Speaking of weird men. She explains that she and a couple friends met an older guy at a club. He invited them back to his penthouse to go swimming and they were a little drunk and curious, so they went. She says they walk in, head toward the pool and pass this locker area with lingerie and swimsuit sorted by size. I'm sitting there trying to keep a straight face because I know exactly which locker room she's talking about, but I just nod, take a sip of my drink. Like, wow. Yeah, that's something.

B (32:45)

Oh, ew.

A (32:47)

Ew.

B (32:49)

Just ew.

A (32:50)

Yeah, that's really the only reaction is gross. Ew, gross. I mean, my God.

B (32:58)

But also not. Sadly, not.

A (33:01)

Not surprising.

B (33:02)

I mean, no surprise.

A (33:04)

Can you be more obvious about how horrible and disgusting you are? I guess I feel like. Does that work? Which, granted, this person did say early in their career or early in my business, so I don't know what that means. I'm wondering if this means, like early 2000s or if it means like five years ago. Because I do think, granted, never should happen, but early 2000s are different. We were in a bit of a different, like, oh, yeah, time. I would say, oh, yeah. Whereas like, five years ago, actually, you need to go to jail. Like, give. Here's some handcuffs. Like, it's.

B (33:40)

Yeah, so.

A (33:41)

So again, this must have been. Had to have been also, because I just don't think any designer would be, like, if this happened within the last five years, would want to get in bed with a client like this. Like, all that's screaming to me is how bad of a person you are. The first walkthrough too. So it makes me feel like the culture was a little bit more.

B (34:06)

Yeah. Yes.

A (34:07)

You know, I think you're spot on.

B (34:09)

On that because, I mean, like, I will say I moved to LA in 2009, so the bad behavior was rampant then.

A (34:18)

Kind of like part of it. Yes.

B (34:20)

And it was almost, I mean, sad to say, but so normalized where, like, you know, I mean, I experienced really gross things early in my career that I just had to accept in order to get where I was. And back then they would just tell you, oh, well, this is just part of it. And you don't say, watch out for this person.

A (34:38)

Just be careful on this person. Like, it was never, like, something should. They should be told to stop. It was just like, hey, just keep an eye out for shows who they are. But just don't just make sure you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time with them. Which is like, so many things wrong with just telling young girls that.

B (34:55)

Fortunately, it's so much better now. I. I tell my nieces, like, my. I say this all the time. I'm like, well, yeah, we're not there anymore. Fortunately, that ended in our generation because it was.

A (35:07)

I really do believe that.

B (35:08)

So Common.

A (35:09)

I mean, when you. When MeToo happened and everyone was like, oh, yeah, like Weinstein. We all knew.

B (35:15)

Like, everybody knew.

A (35:17)

No one had. Was even remotely surprised, except for the fact that he was caught and something was done to him about it. Like, that was the surprising part. Not all the shit he did. And that is, I mean, an indictment of our culture at the time.

B (35:34)

Right. It's. And it's crazy how far we've come on our way.

A (35:37)

Definitely.

B (35:38)

It's just like. Especially as.

A (35:39)

Even in the last, like, 20 years. Yeah.

B (35:42)

It was so normal. I mean, it was just like. You never talked about it. I remember as, like, freshly starting in my career in 2000. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, if you bring up sexual harassment at all, you'll get fired. So it was just like, you just don't talk about it. And it was just. Isn't that crazy to even think about, like, we've come so far.

A (36:00)

And the fact that anyone would even think to say, like, now you can't. It just is. You're right. It's a completely different world. And thank God there's no way this.

B (36:09)

Happened in the last five years. There's just no way.

A (36:11)

There's just no way. No.

B (36:13)

Right.

A (36:13)

Also, what woman does that work on in the last five years? Is the other question.

B (36:18)

Not anymore, it doesn't.

A (36:20)

I don't think it works anymore. I think it did at one point.

B (36:23)

It definitely did because that was how you. You got careers, sadly. Like people.

A (36:28)

You're being trained.

B (36:29)

Yeah. And it's gross. I mean, I had. When I first moved to la, I had a bunch of girlfriends who were models. And again, I've learned so many different things by being friends with different people. And it was like the stories that they had and it was just to be able to get cast for a shoot or just to be able, you.

A (36:47)

Know, to get in front of the right person. Even not just like, here's a role, Congratulations. Just to get the right person.

B (36:56)

Like, what they would even do to get the. Yeah. The things I saw early in my.

A (37:01)

Career were, I can only imagine, horrific.

B (37:03)

That even now I'm like, wish I could have said something in a better. I mean, I used to drive models to and from shoots sometimes because they didn't have cars. And I would always try to give them pep talks along the way. I'm like, you know, what's your next life goal? Like, what do you want? You know, be like. Because you don't have to accept this.

A (37:20)

Like the guidance counselor on the way to their shooting. Totally. This doesn't have to be it for you.

B (37:25)

I know. Yes, yes. Yeah. Oh God, I'm glad we're not there anymore.

A (37:32)

Same. And also I want to be so incredibly clear. This is not an indictment of any woman who did anything to get to where she is. This is an indictment of all the creepy men who took advantage 100% of the women trying to get to where.

B (37:45)

They were trying to go.

A (37:46)

Yeah, yeah.

B (37:47)

It was icky and normalized and it.

A (37:49)

Was just, it just was part of it. Like this is. You gotta do it, unfortunately. And that is.

B (37:54)

And I'm pretty sure every woman from that time knows somebody who's had that experience, has actually had that experience or has a story. Yeah.

A (38:03)

Guaranteed just part of it. You know, I was in LA in 2014. I also friends with models. Hair flip. Not what I mean, but a girl who was in my sorority, we moved to LA at the same time. She was a model, her little sister was a model. And even just the watching how they were treated versus just like a normal person versus like the people I worked with every day, like the die cute dichotomy of the two ways of people living in la, like just that was so stark to me and sort of hard to watch. I can only imagine the shenanigans that were happening in the early 2000s, late mid 2000s. I mean it's. Yeah, it's. And there were certainly points where we're 20 years old at some 50 year old man's house in the hills and you can't get home and you're like, and this was before Uber. Oh God, yeah, I guess we had Uber. I guess I was just too poor to call an Uber up to the hills. I'm trying to think like, why wouldn't we have done that? But it didn't feel like an option. I don't know why. I mean, certainly we did sometimes, but we were always like, we gotta catch a ride with so and so we gotta like hop. And I'm like, what? No, we didn't.

B (39:18)

Yes, yes, I know.

A (39:21)

Oh God, it's. We're lucky that nothing worse happened, that's for sure.

B (39:25)

Thankfully, hopefully the progress of that has happened. Like.

A (39:28)

Yes, thank you. For sure.

B (39:29)

It's a very, very difficult even if.

A (39:30)

It'S just because men are scared. Good, great.

B (39:34)

And I'm glad that young girls don't have to experience that. Like I, you know, we all fought fairly hard for that to not be a thing that. That's not even normal for them anymore. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it still happens.

A (39:46)

But like, but it's not something that they're. And I notice it with young girls. We had a 16 year old intern and she's so like, fearless in a way that like, I can read as, like, you're not as scared to be a girl in the world. It's still terrifying, but it's not as scary as it was as far as, like. Well, I won't say as far as men go, but I just think in general, our culture does a better job at taking care of young women. And so she seemed to be able to have like a freer spirit than I even did in a small town at 16.

B (40:23)

Yeah.

A (40:24)

Which is an interesting thing to watch because it does seem like they feel a little bit more protected, even if it's just by like the other women in the space with them. We are now not afraid to say, what the fuck are you doing? Don't touch her. Don't look at us.

B (40:40)

That's not okay.

A (40:41)

Like, we're now not afraid to say. And I think that's the big shift. Like, I actually don't know that men have gotten all that much better. I just think that now they have more people in public to say something to them about it. So younger people feel a little bit more protected, I hope.

B (40:58)

Well, and also I think that there's a lot more conscious men in existence now because I, you know, good friends of mine who may have had actions that they didn't ever think were male friends who, that they didn't ever think were anything that made a woman uncomfortable, had to learn that, oh, this thing I did might have actually made somebody uncomfortable. And I don't ever want to do that again, you know, So I think that, that it brought a different level of accountability. And I do know a lot of men who really understand it more now and want to also be protective of women as well, now that everybody knows, like, it was just most people didn't know that that was not okay.

A (41:41)

Yeah. Which is crazy to think about.

B (41:43)

It's crazy. And you watch old movies from that, you know, you even watch movies from the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, and it's like there's a complete disconnect with Gen Z watching those same movies. They're like, why would you. Yes. Which is really fascinating and great, I think, in a lot of ways. Cause we're like, no, it's funny. And then you think, ooh, it kind of really wasn't actually, but we were just told that it was so my.

A (42:07)

Favorite movie when I was like 10 to 14, maybe. Was sleepover. And I just forced like a 13 year old to watch it. And she was like, what is this? And I was like, what do you mean? You know, like the 13 year old boy on the skateboard. And she's like, ew, no. And I'm like, okay, all right.

B (42:24)

I'm glad, actually.

A (42:25)

I'm glad that your goal in life is not the skateboarder. I'm so sorry.

B (42:30)

Cause that's all that we were taught. Like, it's just so normal.

A (42:34)

The mecca at the end of the movie is her ending up with this like skateboard. It's so crazy to me because in my head, the movie's about female friendship and growth and being a teenager. And actually the moral of the story is not any of that. It is you should end up with the boy. And that is, I think, definitely sunk in more than like, I'm even willing to.

B (42:56)

Absolutely. I have a 19 year old niece who we talk like, you know, she'll say things like that. Like, why? Why does everybody care so much about if they got the boy? And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad. There's that disconnect now.

A (43:05)

Like, I'm just like, thank God you think that way. That's what we want.

B (43:09)

It's great.

A (43:10)

Yeah, it is. And hopefully they're gonna make an even better world for us because of that. Like, it's just each generation of women is getting better, which I think is really kind of magical.

B (43:21)

Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to witness.

A (43:23)

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so penance for I suppose both of them. I legitimately think this man should be in jail probably.

B (43:35)

Oh, that's so gross. Or just castrated. Well known in the world of like.

A (43:41)

Sorry, Claire's laughing at me. She's like, you've got a jail.

B (43:44)

It's gross. It's pretty gross. I mean, I was gonna say something not. Yeah, it's so gross. Gross. I. I just think things like that, it's good when they publicly come out.

A (43:52)

Yes. I do think there was an app when I was in high school and beginning of college that was like glass door for men. And you could go and leave reviews.

B (44:06)

Wow.

A (44:07)

On different boys. Really about like, do not date this person. I dated them. They did xyz. So in my college was like the Bible. At least we had it freshman year. I knew. Cause I remember like looking up all the different boys I would meet at parties to see like what other girls had said about them. And it was so valuable because multiple times it was like he did something really egregious that you were just like, wow, I cannot believe that. Otherwise no one would know about this. I wish we would bring that back. I wish there was like a. I mean, there was the bad men list during, like, MeToo. I kind of feel like we need a database for different cities so people can, like, report people.

B (44:51)

I'm really glad I. I'm so glad I don't. I don't have to worry about dating. Yeah.

A (44:56)

Honestly, thank your lucky stars. Because it's so bleak.

B (45:00)

I mean, seriously, the apps didn't exist. I mean, I've been married since 2011. The apps didn't. Didn't exist when I started dating my husband. So it was just like a whole experience. I've never had that whole. Yeah, I've never had that whole world. So. So it's just. But I mean, I also think, like, even those lists are complex too, because there's a lot of trauma, informed things that happen, of course, how people become that way. So I think that psychology is evolving as well to not saying that anybody should accept bad behavior, but it at least helps people get to the root.

A (45:31)

Of things are happening. Why that behavior may even exist. Yeah, no idea.

B (45:35)

Totally. There's a lot of evolution happening in, like, that whole world currently, which. Which is. Yes, we're in the pendulum swing, but, like, it goes one way strong and then it finds its way back into the middle eventually.

A (45:47)

And, I mean, I don't know that, like, dating is getting better. I think dating's getting worse, personally.

B (45:54)

I just. I feel for everybody who it would. It would be not fun. It's really not fun.

A (46:00)

And, like, a lot of women I know are just, like, I guess I'm just not gonna date. Like, I just. It's not worth it to me to, like, put myself in this position with men when I just don't really care.

B (46:11)

Yeah.

A (46:11)

I mean, I have lots of younger women who work for me, and it is just as bleak as when I was in my early 20s dating, if not more. Like, they just seem like they care less, which, you know, I didn't think was possible.

B (46:27)

And it's hard too, because, like, that relationships, even getting to the good stuff, it takes so much work and so much like, digging in and, like, facing yourself. And if you don't have a good partner to do that with, just. I don't. I. I'm. Again, I'm 45, so I'm grateful that I don't have, like, that. I'm in a different zone with that. But I do have so many single Female friends from like various age groups of like from their 20s all the way to their like 60s, 70s. And it just across the board, I hear, hear the most horror stories. And you know, my older female friends who, who didn't exist in the time of apps like before and now they've, they're either divorced or widowed or whatever's going on and they are having to now use apps to date and they're like, this is, I mean, a nightmare. And you know, I grew up in, in Florida and I have family in the Midwest, so I know where you're coming from on that. And it's almost just like, like, it's just very different. I mean there's good and bad to everything. I always say everything comes with a trade off, but, but you know, it's, it's a really complex time, I think, to be doing that. And also I have hope that this intense pendulum swing will eventually balance itself out. But I just. It's so awful, right? Like, I just, I feel for everybody. I just.

A (47:52)

Ugh.

B (47:53)

What? Like, not. No thing. I mean, not that everything comes with challenges. So it's like, you know, to sustain a healthy marriage comes with challenges where you actually have to constantly work, but like, you know, to date and like, find someone to su in the world of apps and like nobody really meets in person.

A (48:11)

And yes, there's so much choice too. It's like there's no need to be bought in because. Because if this doesn't work, I got the next one in my phone. So it's like there's no. Whereas what's interesting is that during COVID dating was so much easier. So much easier because there wasn't that much choice. They couldn't go anywhere, they couldn't do anything. There was only like so many people on the apps. You couldn't like your bubble could only be so big, so you couldn't be dating like a million people at once. So so many people got into long term relationships in Covid because of that.

B (48:50)

Well, that's true. And most people I know who did, they're like happily partner, you know, like that. That's an interesting thing too.

A (48:58)

Yes. People needed the blinders to be on to be able to focus on one person. Cause I think often we're cutting too early. Yes, sometimes. But you know, I think in my experience, I will have a girlfriend be like, we went on three great dates. It was amazing. I have no idea what happened. He just said he wasn't interested. And it's like he also doesn't know. He just Doesn't. It's not, like, the perfect, easy thing, so it's easier to move on rather than, like, stick it out and try.

B (49:30)

Well, and communication is all digital, so, like, people aren't seeing each other face to face to kind of, like, sense out what's going on, what's actually happening.

A (49:40)

And there's lots of limbo and, like.

B (49:42)

And, like, a ghosted text could be for multiple reasons and then taken a wrong way or taken the right way. Know, like.

A (49:49)

I mean, there's a. There. He's not. He's just not that into you. That movie comes in my brain all the time. It's like, we're gonna make up. But, yeah, if ghosting could be for a trillion reasons, you could literally tell yourself, well, he must be in the hospital right now. He must have gotten in a car accident, and that's why he didn't respond. And you look at another girl. So, like.

B (50:08)

Right.

A (50:09)

Oh, right.

B (50:10)

Well, then that's the other crazy thing is that you can see what people are doing at any given time. So you're, like.

A (50:16)

You know, can tell immediately when someone's lying. It's. Yeah, it is a tricky landscape, for sure. But one thing I do want to say is penance for the designer. I think it could be interesting whether they feel, like, weird about the situation or not. It could be interesting to pay it forward and, like, donate on behalf of this person, even if this was 20 years ago. Donate to Planned Parenthood and in his name. That's what I would do, because I feel like it could be good to write the scales a little bit. Not that the designer did anything wrong, but I think if I were this designer, I would now feel like, well, I maybe contributed to some of his antics. And so it could be good to just offset. Again, not his responsibility, but, like, sometimes it's just, like, good for your soul. That sounds so cheesy. But, like, even if it's not technically your responsibility, sometimes it's just good to write the scales, I think.

B (51:14)

Yeah. I mean, I. I think also I always think that the best thing you can do is learn from it and move on and not. Oh, for sure. And just, like, you know, and again, we are in a different time now.

A (51:24)

So hopefully, yeah, hopefully he's not. There isn't someone else out there like this that's even coming to him. You know, I feel like hopefully this is not something he's had to deal with again.

B (51:36)

And ultimately, sometimes people have to take a job.

A (51:40)

Oh, I've had to take jobs for people that I Would have preferred that I did not.

B (51:44)

I don't.

A (51:44)

I don't fault him for taking this job at all. Ooh, me too. Especially because the time this was so normalized. And so I just don't think that, like, it even necessarily clocked to him.

B (51:57)

But I think the man needs to get outed.

A (51:59)

Oh, God. Me too.

B (52:00)

That would be the great penance of all of this. That would be.

A (52:03)

The great penance, is for this man who clearly is making money from something if he has an indoor pool. Like, you know, he's gotta be someone. Someone in some arena. So, yeah, maybe that is the best way is to expose this guy.

B (52:17)

And it's still pretty common in certain business circles to have people like that. Anyway.

A (52:31)

Okay, so now I have some questions for you, which I'm really excited about. What advice would you give to designers looking to. To make their spaces photographed better?

B (52:40)

Let's see. I mean, for me, one of the things that I find hard is when there's no layers, like, having things layered and having personal items. And I think a lot of times designers like to. And I get why. Like to shoot a house right when they're done before the person really moves in. And I get that. Because you want your design to shine how? However, I will say that the houses that feel the most alive often are either shot after someone's lived there and they have personal artifacts. Not that you don't have to pare them back a little bit sometimes. But all the same, having things that show how the homeowner uses the space makes for a better story, I find. So I think from an editorial perspective, having it feel a little bit more lived in so you, you know, otherwise, bring a prop stylist who knows how to make it.

A (53:37)

How to make things.

B (53:38)

Yeah, right. Because that's the big flaw, I will say a lot of times, because I often will pitch a house to a publication for a client that I've shot for and help people get into publication sometimes. And I will say, like, often, when it just feels sterile, and sometimes it can have beautiful textures and beautiful. But it just doesn't feel like anybody lives there. So I think that. That being able to, you know, go through their personal stuff and see if there's things that you can put around that feel a little more life to it, or an heirloom or something that tells a story, or bring your own if you have a lot of cool stuff in your house, as long as the client's open to that. But, like, it really helps to have layers, I think. I mean, minimalist works in some ways. I tend to think. I mean, I'm a maximalist at home, personally, who loves to shoot everything. I really love shooting as long as it's got great. Like, you know, I have a lot of different favorite things to shoot, but I will say like a simple plant or a flower or a. Not, you know, and not the same one that everybody uses. Like, get a little creative with it, but can bring a space alive. Or, you know, just textures, layers, books that don't look like the same books that everybody has or. Or, you know, those are the things that I think are really important. But I really do wish that more people would do the house shoots a few months after somebody's lived there, at least, because I think it makes a big difference.

A (55:09)

That's really interesting. I. Yeah, we just naturally often have to do it like a year after they move in. Because how Chicago works is you can't shoot except for, like, five months out of the year. So if they move in at the wrong time, then, you know, it can sometimes be a full year. We do often have to pare back their effects, of course, quite a bit. But what my favorite stylists do, and I'm curious your opinion on this, is like, they make it look like a person just got up and walked away. Like, they make it look like you were just cutting things and you just walked out of the room really quickly. Or they make it like a chair is pulled out because you just got up and left a glass is half full with a lip mark, lipstick mark on it because you just got up and left. Like, those are what I find to be my favorite. Are you seeing that a lot? Is that something that you feel like, helps.

B (55:57)

I like that. I think it can also be overdone in some way. So I think there's a fine line.

A (56:03)

To make it not look like you're trying to do that.

B (56:05)

Yeah. Because sometimes it can look a little. Try hard. And sometimes it looks super natural. So you want it to feel natural. I mean, for me, I always like to, if I get the chance to, and I don't always get the chance to, but understand how the homeowners move through the space when I'm shooting it, because it's like, kind of helps me understand. Or like, when I'm shooting for A.D. i'll usually ask. Ask the celebrity. I'll be like, well, you know, what's your favorite room? How do you use it? What's like, what. What do you like about this? Like, what's your favorite part of the house? Where do you hang out in the morning? What. So that I sort of get an idea of what their routine is in the space, and that helps inform the styling. You know, there's just, like, a different. Because it's so. Homes are so personal, and I think that they become so sterile if we're not careful in photo shoots. Sometimes that works, but if your goal is editorial, the sterility of that isn't really what's gonna get you there.

A (57:02)

Interesting.

B (57:03)

There are some publications who really love the stereo, and that's fine if that's your goal. But I think that a lot of times I find, especially with up and coming designers, they think that it needs to be this, like, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. And that perfection sometimes just makes you think nobody lives there. And that's the thing I've had comments on so often is like, does anybody live there?

A (57:27)

Or.

B (57:27)

Or, you know, and so I think that. That, you know, we want the homes to look like people actually live in them, not like.

A (57:34)

Yeah, yeah. I think as a designer, like, speaking from my personal experience, when I walk into a client's house after a year and their shit is everywhere. That's right. To me, it makes me feel like, oh, my God, you can't even, like, see what we did because there's so much. So how do you know, like, how to straddle that line of, like. And also. Well, I guess when you're doing. Dealing with celebrities, often they're like, this is my home. They're in the photos. Cause that's the other thing. We're often trying to keep privacy. So, like, if there's photos, we take it all down. Like, how do you make sure you're hitting the right note between those. If that makes sense.

B (58:13)

Yeah. And that's. I get that. That there's a lot of. You know, again, that's a complex thing where you really. Sure.

A (58:18)

Sorry, that's probably not just, like, an easy question to answer.

B (58:21)

No, but that's a valid question. It's. There's a fine line. And I think that. I mean, I, again, work with a lot of NDAs, so there are a lot of homes that I. Where the homeowners want nothing to do with being in it and want no presence. So we have to make sure we strike any family pictures, any, you know, things like that. So that. But. But you can still give the feeling of some mystery person living there, I think, without having, like, the most personal effects. And that, again, in those situations is where a good prop stylist comes in, or if your design team has Good prop styling. But I will say that one thing I've noticed, and not again, not always, but often it helps with having a good prop stylist because a lot of designers say, well, why do I need a prop stylist? I'm a designer. And I get that. But you've been so immersed in the work and the project from day one that, like, you're only seeing certain things that either, like, it took me 14 weeks lead time to get this fabric. So I am a. You know, and it's just like, so all you can think about is that fabric. And you want to make sure you get a photo of that fabric. And it's like the prop stylist comes in, they're like, oh, but we'll just throw a blanket over this and it'll peak that fabric. And it's just like. And it's just a different, fresh set of eyes on it that often helps it come alive in a way that. And this is not always because I have worked with some incredibly talented designers who also are great at prop style.

A (59:46)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (59:46)

But I will say, for the most part, in those instances, and I mean, like, I've done props, you know, like, I often, if somebody doesn't have the budget for it, I'll just bring a bunch of trunk load of stuff from my house and do what I need to do or, like, go get flowers. So it's just like, you know, because I want it to look good ultimately, but I will. But it does slow the shoot down when we do that.

A (60:05)

Of course. Yeah. I mean, prop stylists, we won't do a shoot without a prop stylist. Like, there's so many.

B (60:11)

So many people don't know the value of that. And I think that there is. And having prop stylists who work with the publications you're hoping to get into is a big, like, you know, you want people who know what editors are looking for, but, you know, it's a big spend and I get that. So there's, there's a lot of things in that as well.

A (60:34)

So is doing the like, so is the photography. So to me, it's like, if I'm gonna spend all that money on the photography, that's what I always say, too. I spend the extra 20% of or whatever it is and get a stylist.

B (60:47)

And it's a write off.

A (60:49)

Well, exactly. Lessen your taxes. So what are you worried about? But, like, I, I do think that I sometimes refer to them to other designers as photo stylists because I feel like that's what gets it through their head that we are not styling bookshelves for clients to live among. One of my favorite stylists, who. I can say it. My favorite stylist, Kimberly, who I work with all the time in Chicago. She, like, will think of something that I never even would have dreamed of by seeing one photo of a space. I don't even ask her what she's gonna do. I just let her do it. Cause it's her job, and she's amazing at it. And every single time, I will walk away being like, I never would have thought of that. It looks so much better than it did before. I've never not felt that way. And there will be some times where I'm like, I. I never would have done that. And actually, my way also probably would have been good. But there's something in her brain that is creating this juxtaposition that maybe I couldn't have gotten to because to your point, I'm too close to it.

B (61:48)

Right.

A (61:49)

And that is a thing that is the difference between, I think, between it being in a publication and it not.

B (61:54)

I really do. And I mean, it's not to say that it hasn't happened. I will say, like, there's this designer, Jamie Holler, who I've worked with for years.

A (62:03)

Incredible. And she's so talented.

B (62:04)

She and I have, like, done our share of them, just the two of us, and made it happen. She's. She's awesome. She has a great house full of things.

A (62:13)

I.

B (62:14)

You know, you'll. If you look at some of her images, it's like, you'll see my towel. You know, like, there's just random stuff in there. But, like, we've also hired prop stylists, for one, and that worked out really well too. And I think that there are examples where it works really well with the designer. But I will say that it really helps a lot of times to have. Especially when. With what you're speaking of on, like, when you can't show the personal effects of the person, that's really where it comes into play. I will say, like, absolutely.

A (62:43)

I mean, because they're bringing full vans full of stuff that otherwise you don't have access to. I mean, it's valuable. And I think, yeah. I urge other designers to bite the bullet one time. You won't go back.

B (62:56)

Absolutely. And especially up and coming designers who haven't been published. And you want a team of people who are getting published in these publications, because then we have access to the. You know, like, I have many times Gotten my client. Not always. Which is always sad when I have to tell them it didn't go through. But sure, I have many times gotten my clients published, but it's like, you know, I'll be like, oh, well, it's me and such and such stylist. And we did this together. And so it immediately gives legitimacy if we take that project on credibility. Yeah. Which is a funny thing to say out loud. Cause I'm like, that kind of sounds in a way, but it's not. It's just like a different. Because they're used to working with us. Absolutely. So it's like they know what we see and they already trust us.

A (63:39)

Yes. I also think a little bit is like, well, it speaks well of the designer that the designer sees talent, knows talent, trusts talent to do their. So, like, if you're willing to hire the right people and let them make your work even better, that's the type of work they, I have to assume, want in a magazine versus the other. Very tightly held. This is all mine. And, you know, you can tell when you see photos if that is how the shoot was run, versus if you can totally see. Everyone's allowed to run and do what they do best. I think those are the shoots that become, like, magic.

B (64:19)

Yeah, I agree. And even from the. And I tell clients this a lot, you know, new design clients who come in. I'm like, you know, if you're going to micromanage the shoot, it's going to take a really long time. And it might not be, you know, if you let me come in and do the thing that I do. And, you know, like, it's okay if you have guidelines of. Oh, well, this room is really important to me. Okay, great. What's your favorite parts? Tell me. But like, yeah, if you're. If you come to me with iPhone shots of every angle you want me to cover, then do it with your iPhone.

A (64:50)

Does that happen?

B (64:51)

Oh, my God. I mean, like, so many times. So many times. And I'm like, literally, why?

A (64:57)

How do you even have the time? I wouldn't. That is crazy.

B (65:00)

I actually have had to start saying something, you know, and that's usually happens with people who are less tenured.

A (65:06)

Yeah.

B (65:08)

Yeah. So any. There's a lot of talent there, but it's just like, if that's what you're. Sometimes there are great suggestions, but. But, like, I wanna come in and see it the way I see it.

A (65:19)

Yes. That's why people are hiring you.

B (65:22)

Yeah. That has to be one of my biggest pet peeves on Earth.

A (65:26)

Are there any photography rules you love to break when shooting a space?

B (65:30)

I mean, I'm a rule breaker by nature.

A (65:33)

And, you know, rules is used loosely, I would say.

B (65:36)

You know, I will say that I light differently than a lot of people do, and I do it my own way. Even though every. Every male that I ever assisted told.

A (65:49)

Me it was wrong, perfect, and that means it was right, by the way.

B (65:53)

Right. And it was right for me. And so that's what worked. And that's fine. I just don't think there are necessarily rules. I think every home kind of tells you the way it wants to be shot. Like, I don't know how else to explain that other than that's how I.

A (66:10)

Feel about every home tells you how it wants to be designed. So I really understand what you say when you say that.

B (66:16)

Yeah, like, you just. And I always laugh and tell people part of my process is often you'll find me just staring at something for a few minutes where I'm just. Because I'm kind of trying to see. And sometimes it takes me two seconds to find the shot, and sometimes it takes 20 minutes to find the shot. I'm moving around to make sure. But, like, then when you find it, you find it. So I can't say that. You know, there's some angles that just often work, like the half east side nightstand, bed shuffle. You know, there's just some things that. And you. There's certain publications who I already know who likes what type of. You know, some people like vignettes, some people like pulled back, some people like straight on, some people like a little bit. So. Yeah. Wow.

A (66:53)

Another valuable piece.

B (66:54)

It's really specific. Well, and that's another thing about hiring a professional photographer who works with, you know, there's a collection of us and we all have our different ways of doing things. But like, ultimately, if you know, if you've been doing it long enough, you kind of know what people are looking for. So you know how to actively create images. That will be something that that editor goes, yes, that versus like. So I think that. But I don't know that there's any hard, fast rules, because every rule I've ever been told, I've just kind of done my own. You do it differently.

A (67:27)

Yeah, I mean, that's completely valid. I do potentially have an example I could give you recently on Business of Home. They were just discussing that evening photography is coming back.

B (67:39)

I know.

A (67:39)

Which I want your opinion on that because for so long it was like, no lights, no lights, no lights, no lights in Interior photos. And then we've. I've slowly seen like one decorative light on if it's like, moody, which we have been doing occasionally. But, like, what are your thoughts on, like, full, like, dusk shoots? That is so interesting to me, and I would love to know your opinion.

B (68:04)

Okay, so I have thoughts now. I haven't. I haven't listened to the episode, but one of my clients sent it to me, I don't know, two weeks ago. And I. It's on my list. I need to listen to it because I'm curious what they're saying about it. What's really interesting is my early, early career when I worked at the design firm in Florida. This was back in the day and we would hire photographers to shoot. And this was back in the days of shooting to film. And everything was shot at dusk with the lights on. And we would the photographers and like, I was, you know, the gopher back then, so I would be styling, whatever, doing whatever I needed to do. And the photographers would gel the windows with like a blue tint. So it was like a whole process to get those things. And we now have different ways of doing that, obviously digitally, thank God, because it would take days to get these shoots done. And so expensive. So that was like the way it was done. I've always referred to it as like the bad dad genes of photography.

A (69:04)

I love that.

B (69:06)

Okay, so because it kind of. Now, this is not to say it does not work in some applications, but like, in some ways, ways it can look very real estate. So in other ways it can look dreamy and give like. I love nostalgic. Who's that? The Instagram. I think it's press sf. They always post photos of old books.

A (69:29)

I think that's who it is or something like that.

B (69:32)

They always post these, like, super dreamy, 80s, 70s, whatever, interior shots. And I'm like, oh, I love this. So there are ways it can be done in a good way. It does take more time to do. It can be more expensive because it can take more post. There's just different things. There are ways it can be really beautiful. I just don't think there's a one size fits all for it. I will also say that I have tried so many. I mean, you know, we do an accent light on here or there, like trying to do it. And it is very rare. Some publications will accept them and some bigger publications are still lights off.

A (70:11)

Interesting. Okay.

B (70:12)

And so, like, anytime I've tried to sneak those in, they don't want them. They often don't get selected for the final select. But that doesn't mean that's not gonna change as everybody's starting to say what's trending. I will say that there are trends where, you know, like, 10 years ago, everything was so bright and crisp, and it was like, I looked back at my old portfolio, and I was like, ooh, because it's so bright, so crisp. Everything was crunchy, and it was like a vibe, and that was so specifically trendy that now they look outdated. And then there was the super dark moody that came in, like, you know, the last few years, and there's a lot of those that look beautiful, but it's already starting to look dated. So I'm worried that this too, if it becomes like a nonstop. Everybody's doing it all of a sudden, is gonna look dated four or five years from now. And then your portfolio looks. Looks dated. I think it works in some applications. I don't think it works in all applications.

A (71:08)

Well, and maybe to your point, letting the home tell you how it wants to be shot.

B (71:12)

Yes.

A (71:12)

Like, if the home is lending itself to, like, super dark and moody and evening and all of that. Exactly.

B (71:20)

And that's gotta be one of the worst things, is that when, like, people come to me and they're like, we want this moody. And they show me a house that is not moody, and I'm like, so it's. Wait a second. So you want me to. I mean, it's fine. You can do anything in lighting, but it's just, like, doesn't speak to my.

A (71:37)

But is it gonna feel right? Like, it was supposed to be that way? I don't.

B (71:41)

So I have. But I need to listen to it because I don't want to, you know, Like, I do need to.

A (71:45)

No, but I think that's a great, like, answer that if the house is lending itself to it, you should do it. Can do it Experiment. Yes. If not, maybe don't force something because it's in right now.

B (71:58)

Now. Which is correct.

A (71:59)

The moral of pretty much every story, right?

B (72:00)

I mean, pretty much every story. And it's. And it shows. Like, you know, I have some things on my portfolio that are from 10, 15 years ago and still look normal. And then I have some that are from the crispy times that I'm like, oh, God, I can't show these to anybody. So it's like. And they could be really cool things that I shot that I either have to go back in and re edit the whole folder and try to take the tones back out if I want them on my portfolio. And so I just leave there, but hide it somewhere. You know, it's just.

A (72:26)

But still not worth it. Yep.

B (72:28)

I worry that. That I maybe it'll be, you know, I just hate these concepts of this is trendy right now.

A (72:34)

No, I'm completely with you.

B (72:36)

But like, you know, for like, holidays or things like that. Yeah, of course. It makes sense to have lights and glowy and for certain homes, they're supposed to be moody. Here in New Mexico, there's a lot of adobe. And like, sometimes, like, my house is not a moody house. This is bright white and. But like, there are a lot of really deep, warm adobes, which I think was like, where the whole Portola plaster thing came into play is like, that started getting duplicated everywhere again. Or like the tattle act from Morocco. You know, like, it's that those deep, rich and those. It works sometimes. So, you know, and I shot in Morocco, and it's like those. It's so warm and cozy, and so it makes sense, but it's like, it just doesn't always make sense.

A (73:19)

Square peg, round hole. If it's like a bright white, to your point, beach house, and we're like, oh, let's make this moody. It's just not gonna. Even if you can successfully make it look gritty, will it feel like it was supposed to be that way? No. And that's the piece that I feel like people can pick up on without even knowing that they're picking up on it. It just feels inauthentic. Yes.

B (73:40)

And especially up and coming designers are often trying so hard to make sure that they're fitting in with the trend that's happening so that they'll get published.

A (73:49)

Yes. I just don't think that works.

B (73:51)

Yeah, I don't either. And I also have theory that this is something I've observed over time, which you're getting one of my trade secrets right now. But a lot of times, as you're heading into fall, editors respond more to darker, moodier images. And as you're heading into spring, they respond more to lighter images. Absolutely. And so that is something that depending on when you're wanting to pitch or when you're hoping to get something out, it's also something to keep consider. So. And you can do two sets sometimes too, if you want to. Like, here's a little bit brighter, here's a little bit warmer, whatever.

A (74:25)

Well, and also, I remember my first, like, big shoot. Of course I wanted it to be in a publication, but it was never like, we are shooting for X publication or we are Shooting it this way because X publication likes this. I just feel like if you're shooting to have the best photos to make your work look the best possible and have it look like lived in than like if the publications like it, great. If they don't, you have beautiful photos you can use. And you weren't like targeting a specific. That to me feels like, wow, you're putting so many eggs in one basket. You're spending so much money, so much time, so much energy to be in a magazine that like, even if you did it all perfectly, it may not work. Because their calendar may have something that's similar on the dolly.

B (75:11)

Well, and that's a valid. So real. Cause that is a thing that happens is sometimes. Sometimes that, you know, they've got somebody who, who's used the same wallpaper and they're like, we can't do that twice.

A (75:21)

We can't run this twice.

B (75:22)

So. And there's nothing wrong with that. It just is what it is. So ultimately, having cohesive good images is what gets you booked better clients anyway.

A (75:31)

And then great, if that one didn't go in a magazine, the next one will because you have photos that are good enough for clients to hire you. Like, that's the piece that I think.

B (75:39)

And eventually you will get there. I think if you're, you know, you often most people will eventually get there. It might not happen on your first three or four, but it will eventually get there. And like I always like to ask my, you know, new clients, who's your top three dream publications to get featured in? Because that helps me to think. Okay, well, I'll definitely make sure to shoot this room in a tight vignette. A this and a this.

A (76:05)

Sure.

B (76:05)

So that when we submit to different places, we have different things to submit to. But ultimately I always say I will never promise anybody that that's going to happen because you just don't. The editorial calendar is a thing and you don't know what people are looking for at any given time, so. Or what they've already got slated. I have a client who just got published in print this last. I think it was last month or the month before. And they held those images. They were supposed to go in like spring and then they were supposed to go and. But it just wasn't fitting their editorial like their layouts. So she wound up, she invested in this, I don't know, summer of 24, I wanna say. Wow. And it just went. So it was like. So she couldn't show any of those images until.

A (76:49)

And you can't do any. Especially if you're working stuck. Yep, you are.

B (76:53)

And that is a hard thing with the editorial pitch is like, you know, and I always try to tell people, I'm like, if that is your goal, you might be holding onto these images for a really. Sometimes it goes really fast, but sometimes it does not.

A (77:05)

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

B (77:06)

And I know that's complex for designers because you need your images to be able to catch. Get more work.

A (77:11)

Yep.

B (77:12)

Yeah, that's a hard one.

A (77:14)

Yeah.

B (77:14)

But you can't share it.

A (77:15)

Difficult. And I think that online press is the sort of, like, magic middle, in my opinion, because it often does go pretty fast.

B (77:24)

It's quick. Yeah.

A (77:25)

You can share it with everybody. You're still getting the press that you want. Your name is still attached to that. People aren't having to go out and buy. Like, I've been in print magazines that I can't find, that I can't figure out where to buy them. Like, that doesn't bode well for a client, finding you in the magazines.

B (77:42)

Seen a lot of designers with bigger budgets are. Are hiring PR to get their. And that's like a whole other. It's expensive and it's a whole other wing. But, like, that's. So if you're going grassroots. And I love. I love working with both. I love working with tenured designers because it's a whole different thing. And I also love working with up and cominging people because, you know, a lot of times there's a little bit different kind of excitement going on there, and it's, you know, a different approach. But I will say that a lot of people don't realize that to get all of this press, you often have to have PR or you have to be spending all of your free time connecting. Connecting, connecting. Putting it in front, getting rejected, putting it in front, getting it, you know, and so it's like, I think that the general idea is, oh, I'll just get it in press. And it's like, well, and then I'll get more jobs. And it's like, yeah, it's a whole. That's a lot more of a situation than people think. And good PR does help if that's something you can afford to do, but not everybody can at the beginning of their careers. So.

A (78:45)

And I certainly couldn't. And I pitched all. I still pitch all my stuff.

B (78:49)

I mean, I never did.

A (78:51)

So, I mean, and it's in my experience, just like hiring the right photographer, the right stylist, the right designer, I think it can be sort of make or break. Like, for me, I hired someone who did pr. I didn't feel like they did as good of a job as, like, I personally did. But I know. I know other designers who have PR who, like, they get them in everything, and they couldn't do their business without that PR person. So I think it's very. It can be incredibly valuable. I also sometimes think there's something to be said for, like, if you're 25 and you're like, I don't know the rules. I'm just sending. Like, you can play a little bit dumb and just be like, well, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Because there's not as much to lose, I think, when you're young. So, yeah, it can be.

B (79:36)

That's very true. Yeah, it can.

A (79:39)

Okay, last question for you. If someone wanted to pursue interior photography today, what mindset or skills do you think are most important or what would you tell someone who wants to pursue interior photography?

B (79:51)

You know, it's becoming a lot more saturated of an industry now than it was when I was getting into it as much. You know, there's different ways about everything from my experience. Experience. I think doing all kinds of jobs to meet people so that you can have your network in place. I mean, the skill is important and very important. You have to know how to shoot, obviously. You know, you have to learn how to light. You have to understand how to work with a tripod and how to shoot tethered because. And, you know, that's important, too.

A (80:24)

Yes.

B (80:25)

So important. But like, you and for me, I do all of my own pose as well.

A (80:29)

Wow.

B (80:29)

Just because I like to do. I couldn't even explain what I do. I know. I couldn't even explain how I do what I do. It's just when I'm shooting it, I'm shooting it. I shoot as if I'm shooting film, bracketing exposures. But then I do it digitally. So I kind of started in the film world and understand the film world. So I'm always thinking of it in a different perspective. So I'm dodging and burning in my mind when I'm actually knowing how I'm gonna do it afterwards. There's no way I could explain that to somebody else.

A (81:00)

No, you can't hand that over.

B (81:02)

No. And I've wanted to, and I just have surrendered. I can't, so. And I'm also a crazy person who turns Images around in 72 hours, which is like a crazy. I know I'm a crazy person.

A (81:11)

My God.

B (81:13)

With the exception of the last few weeks when we were in the process of moving. But I loved it.

A (81:16)

Okay, everybody don't listen.

B (81:18)

I know, but so like, because I have so much going that I. If I don't do it right away, it won't get done. So like, my schedule is pretty.

A (81:27)

I understand that.

B (81:28)

Pretty regulated. And that's just how I've found. I have ADHD and I go into hyperfocus and I get it done and it's easy and that's how I do it.

A (81:35)

But if you ask me to do it in three months, I simply won't be able to.

B (81:38)

Absolutely. And so that's just how that works. But I think that developing your flow, understanding your capacity of what parts you can do, what parts you can't do, what you need to outsource is fine. And understanding light, you know, you don't need to have the fanciest equipment or the. I do a lot of. I mean, I do full Architectural Digest shoots with like. People would die if they saw the minimal amount of equipment that I bring. Because I'm just like, you really just don't need as much as everybody thinks that they need.

A (82:10)

Well, if you're very talented. I think that's true.

B (82:13)

I just, it always bothered me cause I started my career working for someone who would set up like 20 lights for like a scene that didn't make sense. And I would just be like, this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. So I always promised myself I wouldn't do that. But like, you know, there are no real rules. Like, you just. I think a network is really important. If you're planning to be in the homes of high profile clients. You need to know how to be in the homes of high profile clients. You need to be someone who can be trustworthy in those homes. And if you sign NDAs, you keep the NDAs. And if you, you know, there's just. But I will say I would not be where I was without my network of people. That network is something I'm proud of. Like I.

A (82:56)

That and it's.

B (82:57)

And it's authentic. And it is like when I, when I am as your experience, like when I meet some, like I become friends with them or they're not in my life, so it's just like one or the other. I don't, I don't really have, you know, if I work with someone, I'm like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to work with you, then. So as either somebody who I really love being around and that authentic network of humans has been one of my greatest gifts in life. And that is the thing I think is the most important. And if you're young, I. I don't know. I mean, I would say move to a big city, but I don't know that that's important anymore, to be honest.

A (83:32)

So, honestly, I feel like sometimes the smaller. Like, Birmingham doesn't have an interior photographer, but has lots of very talented designers that are flying. And Reed McKendree from New York City or Rhode island or wherever, like, they're flying in these major photographs because there is not anyone accessible to. Who knows, maybe those sort of pockets of talent that aren't tapped into, I think is a market that's worth looking into.

B (83:59)

Yeah. And I mean, you. You. You almost do have to do a little bit of time in one of the big cities in order to get the networks usually. But. But maybe not. I don't know. The social landscape has changed all of that tremendously. So that what you're saying on that is true is that, like, there is incredible design coming out of Arkansas, and, like, there's just, you know, Kentucky, and I have designers that I work with in Nashville, and, like, there's just like, cool pockets in small towns and big cities, and Santa Fe is having a really cool boom right now. So it's just, like, exciting. One of the reasons. But there. I just don't think that there are rules. If you're passionate about it, just keep doing it. Yep. Like, really just keep doing it.

A (84:41)

I love that.

B (84:42)

I love that. I love that.

A (84:48)

Before we go, the tagline for my business is interiors that make you feel. What's something that made you feel? This week, it does not have to be design related, but it can be.

B (84:57)

I mean, this morning it snowed, and I was so excited that I feel like I had the joy of a child. On Christmas morning, I. Because I. I woke up and I looked up at the skylight, and it had, you know, crystals on it. And I thought, oh, it must have been a frost. We weren't supposed to get it until. So this is our first snow of the season. And I walked out to go get coffee past my window, and I was like. And I seriously felt like a child on Christmas morning because I have lived in Florida and California for so many years that I was like, oh, my God, I got seasons. I got a season today. Like, this was so. That really, I was just like, of course I ran out. I was wearing sleep shorts and ran out onto my front porch and was like, oh, right. I'M barefoot, but it's cold.

A (85:43)

It's cold.

B (85:43)

But it was. I was so excited that that was, like. I mean, I can't even explain the joy that came up this morning. When that happened, I was like, yeah.

A (85:52)

I still get excited for our first snow every season. Like, I've been here eight years. We just had a big snow the past couple days, and, like, oh, it's the best feeling ever. It really is magical. Digging my car out this morning. Not to magic, not the best feeling. The snow globe piece was great. Jenna, thank you so much for your time. This has been incredible. I am seriously so grateful.

B (86:16)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (86:18)

Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it. And until next week, peace be with you.

B (86:23)

By.