I confess… my client’s forever home became their worst nightmare

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer: Episode Summary

Title: I Confess… My Client’s Forever Home Became Their Worst Nightmare
Release Date: January 15, 2025
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Anna Knight, Founder of Anna Knight Interiors, Oak Park, Illinois

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of "Confessions of an Interior Designer," host Caroline Turner welcomes Anna Knight, the founder of Anna Knight Interiors. Anna shares her intriguing journey from practicing law to establishing a successful high-end interior design firm. Together, they delve into the unpredictable challenges and unforgettable moments that define the luxury interior design industry.

Guest Introduction and Career Transition

Anna Knight recounts her unexpected career shift from law to interior design.
[00:52] Anna Knight: "I was always obsessed with rearranging furniture and dreamed of being an architect from a young age. Despite pursuing law due to external pressures, my passion for design never waned."

After spending a decade as a partner at a prestigious Manhattan law firm, Anna decided to take the plunge into design, balancing her demanding career with a growing roster of design clients and raising two young twins.
[02:22] Caroline Turner: "You fell into success completely."
[02:27] Anna Knight: "All that time was spent renovating our own homes and finding mentors in the business, making the transition both busy and chaotic."

Managing a Design Business and Team Building

Anna discusses the importance of building a reliable team to manage the increasing demands of her business.
[05:59] Caroline Turner: "It's a matter of prioritizing and putting boundaries up."
[07:19] Anna Knight: "Having a team of rock stars has been crucial. Our interior architect, another designer, and our operations queen keep everything running smoothly."

Both Anna and Caroline emphasize the transformative power of delegating tasks and trusting team members, which has significantly reduced their burnout levels and improved overall business efficiency.

Burnout and Setting Boundaries

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on avoiding burnout through setting firm boundaries. Anna shares her strategy of saying "no" to non-essential projects, especially during peak times like holidays.
[08:17] Caroline Turner: "Customer service can't come at the expense of the team or myself."
[10:08] Anna Knight: "You have to say no. It's a game-changer for maintaining quality and reducing stress."

Caroline introduces her practice of using a separate work phone to disconnect after hours, promoting a healthier work-life balance.
[53:50] Caroline Turner: "After 8 PM, my work phone is off. Clients know to expect responses within 24 hours, preserving my mental well-being."

Confession: Haunted House Renovation

Caroline shares a spine-chilling confession about renovating a Victorian home known locally as the "Widow's House." The project was fraught with paranormal activities that made the renovation a living nightmare for the clients. Key moments include:

• [14:40] Caroline Turner: "Strange things started happening from day one—tools disappearing, unexplained footsteps, and eerie noises."
• [16:03] Caroline Turner: "We found a hidden room with an antique rocking chair and a photograph of a woman with a piercing gaze."
• [17:37] Caroline Turner: "One night, I heard the rocking chair move on its own. It was hauntingly real."

The presence of the rocking chair escalated the situation, leading the clients to eventually abandon the house, unable to cope with the unsettling environment. Caroline reflects on the emotional toll of the project, balancing her love for beautiful spaces with the inexplicable occurrences.

Confession: Feud with Rachel

The second confession revolves around a fierce professional rivalry with a long-established designer named Rachel. Caroline narrates how a seemingly lost client turned into a contentious feud when Rachel undermined her reputation.

• [27:46] Caroline Turner: "Rachel publicly criticized my work as derivative, which was untrue and felt like a personal attack."
• [34:55] Samantha: "Rachel is a bitch. She's a mean girl."

The tension peaked at a vendor cocktail hour where Rachel attempted to demean Caroline in front of industry peers. Caroline stood her ground, asserting her worth and experience despite Rachel's attempts to tarnish her reputation.
[45:05] Anna Knight: "People who know you will see through Rachel's behavior and recognize your true value."

Anna and Samantha discuss the importance of maintaining professionalism and supporting fellow designers instead of engaging in destructive rivalries.

Client Vetting and Red Flags

Anna and Caroline offer valuable insights into identifying and avoiding problematic clients. They highlight several red flags, including:

• Unrealistic deadlines: Clients needing immediate project completion.
• Unreasonable budgets: Expectations that don't align with the project's scope.
• Poor communication habits: Excessive texting or expecting off-hours responses.

[58:16] Anna Knight: "Setting boundaries with clients is crucial. If someone insists on immediate responses or last-minute changes, it's a red flag."

Caroline shares her technique of involving a junior designer during initial consultations to assess client behavior and compatibility.

Personal Stories and Insights

Beyond professional confessions, Anna and Caroline share personal reflections on motherhood and work-life balance. Anna expresses joy over her twins becoming more independent, signaling a positive shift in her personal life.
[65:07] Anna Knight: "My twins are getting along and having fun independently, which feels like emerging from a long tunnel."

They also discuss the joys and challenges of raising twins while managing a growing business, emphasizing the importance of personal fulfillment and professional satisfaction.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Anna and Caroline reinforcing the importance of mentorship, supporting fellow designers, and maintaining integrity in the competitive interior design industry. They encourage listeners to focus on building positive relationships and setting firm boundaries to ensure both personal well-being and professional success.

[48:24] Caroline Turner: "Be the opposite of Rachel. Help others and foster a supportive community, and success will follow."

Anna closes by promoting her firm’s social media and website, inviting listeners to connect and explore her work.

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Notable Quotes:

• Anna Knight [00:52]: "I was always obsessed with rearranging furniture and dreamed of being an architect from a young age."
• Caroline Turner [05:59]: "Customer service can't come at the expense of the team or myself."
• Anna Knight [10:08]: "You have to say no. It's a game-changer for maintaining quality and reducing stress."
• Caroline Turner [14:40]: "Strange things started happening from day one—tools disappearing, unexplained footsteps, and eerie noises."
• Caroline Turner [27:46]: "Rachel publicly criticized my work as derivative, which was untrue and felt like a personal attack."
• Anna Knight [58:16]: "Setting boundaries with clients is crucial. If someone insists on immediate responses or last-minute changes, it's a red flag."
• Caroline Turner [48:24]: "Be the opposite of Rachel. Help others and foster a supportive community, and success will follow."

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This episode offers an unfiltered glimpse into the high-stakes world of luxury interior design, highlighting the balance between creative passion and professional resilience. Through Anna Knight's compelling stories and candid discussions, listeners gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of the design industry while maintaining personal well-being.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. Today I'm so excited to be joined by Anna Knight, the brilliant founder of Anna Knight Interiors, based in Oak Park, Illinois. Anna's journey is truly inspiring. She transitioned from practicing law at top firms to creating stunning high end residential renovations and new builds. Welcome, Anna. Thank you so much for being here.

[Anna Knight]

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God, I'm so excited to talk to you. This is gonna be fun. Before we fully get into Confessions, I have to ask, how did you get here? How are you sitting in this chair right now?

[Anna Knight]

How am I sitting in this chair? Well, on the one hand, the path, I think is one that you hear a lot. The whole. I was rearranging the furniture in my bedroom all the time as a kid and I. Which is all tr. I was obsessive and crazy about all of it.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Anna Knight]

I mean, I painted my dorm, I painted my law school apartments, I reupholstered everything I said when I was seven, I wanted to be an architect. I, like, totally was always the dream. And then through, I don't know, pressure, reality, whatever, found myself at law school instead of design school. And certain the whole time in the kind of continent, interesting hubris that only could happen before 2008. I was like, well, I'm going to go to law school and then I'll be a designer.

[Caroline Turner]

Don't worry about it. Actually, that would be good.

[Anna Knight]

It'd be totally fine. Like. But like, it's hard, like, like just delusional. I don't even know. And I, like, sitting with my girlfriends, September of first year of law school, being like, yeah, no, this is just like job one. And they were like, that's weird. But anyway, so especially law school, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Notoriously, one of the hardest things you.

[Anna Knight]

Can do and like, not cheat. Not cheating. No, no. So anyway, did all that, graduated in 07, found myself at big law in Manhattan. The market, the housing market crashed. Law was a pretty sweet place to be compared to interior design. Absolutely. Yeah. So I was in that career much longer than I thought I would be. And so I spent a decade. I found myself as partner at a big firm. Like, what's happening?

[Caroline Turner]

You, like, fell into success completely. My gosh, completely.

[Anna Knight]

And all that time was, you know, renovating our own homes. Finding mentors in the business, like still very clear that it's what I wanted to do. W. Sure. How I was gonna do like the big holdback was like, well, how am I gonna someday do that transition?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

And we talked about like, well, should we buy and flip rental properties or should we like, how am I gonna get a foothold? And then kind of fell into that too, where a couple friends asked me if I could do stuff on the side. One was relocating to Chicago and didn't know anyone here and she's like, I totally trust you. Could you help be boots on the ground? And so then over a few months I was working full time at work. I had pretty close to a full time roster of design clients and two year old twins. And I was like, oh my God.

[Caroline Turner]

My God.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're a big like big law. Like this is not a small like normal. You're working like 80 hours a week.

[Anna Knight]

I. But like I had reduced schedule, but still 40, like, I mean for two.

[Caroline Turner]

40 hour jobs is a lot.

[Anna Knight]

It's too many jobs.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah. So it got to the point where it was like, okay, we gotta rip the band aid. And we were at a point where it was like, if I totally fail miserably, then I'll fill in with the kids or we'll figure it out. You know, like, we'll just see what happens. And that was seven years ago. And now we've got a whole team with me who's awesome. And like it just has been busy and crazy and benefited I think then from that. My whole network is not like poor design students, but like partners at law firms and. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And you know, kids are in preschool. That's like a lot of that is helpful to meet people that are especially in the neighborhoods you live in and you know, all of that. That is exactly. Also biglaw had to have taught you like crazy work ethic.

[Anna Knight]

Crazy work ethic. Crazy obsessive attention to detail. I. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Going through a document is almost the same as on a construction site. Finding things for a punch list.

[Anna Knight]

I 100%. And like my team jokes that like on my tombstone will be like, here lies Anna. Awesome at emails. Like, really good at that, really good at communication, really good at keeping track of a million things at once, which, like what?

[Caroline Turner]

This entire job is totally part of it.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean that had to have been. Yeah. I could see how both my parents are attorneys. I'm not an attorney, but it feels like I went through a mini loss call and it really, like it's beyond beneficial for me. And like when you have to handle tough situations and you're just like, you had to handle tough situations for 10 years of your job and client service.

[Anna Knight]

Like in that, like absolutely.

[Caroline Turner]

And like some of the most high pressure times in their life. And so to be able to manage that, I mean that had. That's a massive leg up when you're. When you're entering this also it's incredibly impressive. Cause I feel like a lot of people have that story of they wanted to do something in the arts. They went and did something that was more responsible.

[Anna Knight]

Air quotes.

[Caroline Turner]

And they never transitioned. And so the fact that you were able to like hold onto that for so long and then do it when you had all that responsibility. Like I started at 24. I had nothing to lose.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, right.

[Caroline Turner]

Nothing to lose. And so it's just. Yeah, it's really, really impress. And obviously it's clear that this is what you were meant to be doing.

[Anna Knight]

Like 100%. Like, I love it. I work so much harder and more than I ever did because like I want to and I love it. And like the.

[Caroline Turner]

It's almost hard to stop.

[Anna Knight]

It's very hard to stop.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. We're gonna talk about that later in the episode. Cause there's a question about burnout and I feel like we'll probably have a lot to say about that.

[Anna Knight]

Probably.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Well, that is incredible. And now your twins are 10 years old.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my gosh.

[Anna Knight]

So like now, now I'm entering a phase where all of it feels. I mean it's still a lot. Any mom or parent or whatever, it's a lot. But I finally really have the right team. Like my team are rock stars and that hugely helps. And my kids are no longer like a total everything pain in the butt. That really helps.

[Caroline Turner]

And they can like change themselves, make their own food. You know, they're pretty self sufficient at time. I feel like.

[Anna Knight]

Exactly, exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

How many people do you have on your team now?

[Anna Knight]

There are four of it. Me plus three in the office. Yeah, that's what.

[Caroline Turner]

But we are too. And it's perfect.

[Anna Knight]

It's perfect. Yeah. We have an interior architect, another designer, and then our operations queen of all things.

[Caroline Turner]

And office manager is so necessary.

[Anna Knight]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Samantha runs like a fan of my business. Actually. We would be nowhere without her. Yeah. I really think when we just hired on our probably final person for a while and it changed my entire business.

[Anna Knight]

Our most recent hire, which is now going to be two years ago, was like that. Like we had a lot of it and we had most of it, but we were still kind of always struggling, and now we were like. Like, we were just saying that this December. Like, December is always crazy, but I'm like, but I don't want to die this year. Like, it's okay. Like, we're okay. Like, everybody. Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

I personally feel a little bit more above water than I did, because I don't know about you, but I've started. We have two junior designers, and we now split up our projects. Like, one of them is in charge of four. One of them is in charge of four. I do everything on all of them, but it's more like they're the ones owning the project. If someone has a question, they know the answer, not me. Yep.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

And that has been genuinely life changing for me. It's so hard. I thought it would be harder, though.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I thought it would be harder to, like, relinquish that control.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

Not at all.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, I'm moving forward.

[Caroline Turner]

Take it. Please, by all means. Let me know when you have a question.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

It's ideal. And to get to that point, I feel like that is also, like, something with burnout. You just have to hustle, and then you finally hit a plateau where, I mean, things are still hard, there are still issues, but you feel like you have a certain level of support and.

[Anna Knight]

You have to be disciplined on the. No.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Anna Knight]

Yes. That's the best thing I did this December where, like, it was right around Thanksgiving, and I was like, okay, Thanksgiving is late this year. We're going to wake up and it's going to be Christmas. Like, we have got to say no to anything that comes in. Not. And I don't mean, like, whole new project, but even, like, can we fit this one other thing? Can I just place this order? And I'm like, this has to wait till January because, like, we always say yes to everything, and then we're a total mess. And I still said yes to one thing, and it crammed up this week a little bit.

[Caroline Turner]

But.

[Anna Knight]

But. But in general, like, held the boundary harder than I normally do.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Anna Knight]

And it's like, we would absolutely love to. We love you. We love all the things. And I would love to talk to you on January 10th or whatever. Like, it's just like, I cannot invent time in my basement. Like, I can't.

[Caroline Turner]

I wish we could, but. You just can't. Well, I. That's so interesting, because I think I've gotten good at saying no to people who aren't clients.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

But clients is the part that because they feel like, well, we're paying you. You are, you know. Right. Not your servant. But it can get, like, a little hairy. Right. And I do understand. People want. Like, everyone wants their project to be as fast as humanly possible.

[Anna Knight]

Everyone wants it by Christmas, and everyone wants. But. And I'm like, right.

[Caroline Turner]

By summer and spring, like, it's just not humanly possible.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And I do think you're sort of teaching them how to treat you by.

[Anna Knight]

Giving those boundaries 100%.

[Caroline Turner]

I have to work on that for sure.

[Anna Knight]

Because every single time we've broken that and, like, bent the rules, rushed pulled off this one last thing. Like, you never get credit.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Anna Knight]

Like, you never get the. Like, oh, my gosh. I know. You bent over backwards and you didn't, like, thank you so much. Nope. It's always just like, well, why wasn't it even faster? It's like, whereas when you have boundaries and people respect the process, that's when everybody loves the client gets a better experience because it did follow what it's supposed to do well.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're not running around trying to fit in 30 things.

[Anna Knight]

You're not making mistakes because you were rushing it. Like, it just doesn't. And that has taken me a long time. And I still, you know, I'm not like, dude, do as I say, not as I do, but, like. But I, like, repeat it to myself as much as I can. It's like, just. You gotta just say no.

[Caroline Turner]

It's a good thing for me to go into 2025 with that mindset of, like, we are always. Customer service is, like, at the top of our priority list, but it can't come at the expense of the team or myself or other customer service.

[Anna Knight]

That's the thing. It's like, you, like, the part of you that loves being great at customer service, wants to say yes to everything, everything, everything.

[Caroline Turner]

But then you're bad at customers, and.

[Anna Knight]

You'Re bad at customer service. Exactly. It's like, no, you just, like. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. You're so right. It's part of being good at customer service is prioritizing and putting boundaries up. Like, that is. I'm having a little bit of an.

[Anna Knight]

Aha moment right now as I'm sitting.

[Caroline Turner]

Here, because that feels extraordinarily obvious. But I feel like when you get in the wheel of just like, we have had every client come out of the woodwork after Thanksgiving, and we're like, wait, we want this before. Wait, wait, wait, wait. And it's like, hold on. Where were you the last month? Like, What? And I need to work on, like, if you're taking a month to get back to us.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

We can take a week.

[Anna Knight]

We can take a week. Or, like. Or the quick response that I got. Your response. Thanks so much. I will be back in touch with you in two weeks.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Anna Knight]

I know, but it's so hard, so. It's so hard. It's so hard.

[Caroline Turner]

We're going to have to get lunch and talk together about this because I. Yeah, that is. But honestly, genius. And something that I feel like we can all work on. Work on, work on. Before we dive into confessions, what is advice you partake in?

[Anna Knight]

Oh, man. I mean, it's so lame. But the truest worst is my stupid diet soda addiction. It's like, so just, like, throw away.

[Caroline Turner]

You are not alone.

[Anna Knight]

I'm not alone. I just like. I'm such a. I would kill to, like, love coffee or something, but I hate it. And so then I'm like, oh, shut up. I did not know this about you. Yeah.

[Samantha]

You're in good company.

[Anna Knight]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

The Dietsy thing is like, I know. Yeah. I drink a lot of it. Um, it's gross. Everyone makes fun of me, but I.

[Caroline Turner]

Know we all have our thing.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, for sure. Including dementia later, when I like freebasing.

[Caroline Turner]

Sometimes dementia sounds kind of good.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I don't. Do I need to remember all that? No, no. The memory loss sounds good. All the other shit that comes with it. Horrible. And to be clear, I'm not, like, saying I want dementia, but I do think sometimes forgetting could be nice.

[Samantha]

Just some things.

[Caroline Turner]

Just some things.

[Samantha]

Well, what's so funny is I specifically remember growing up seeing my mom drink so much Diet Coke and being like. And you hear, right? I'm like, that is a filthy, disgusting, dirty habit. Mom, you have to cut the Diet Coke. Someone, apparently, my mom told me that, like, I learned in kindergarten not to have sweets and Diet Coke, which is toxic. And telling her, you have to get off Diet Coke. Now I'm like, I get it.

[Caroline Turner]

I Diet Coke. I into my body and I'm like.

[Samantha]

I regret everything I said. I didn't know anything. I didn't know.

[Anna Knight]

And I'm, like, 10 years older than you guys anything. So, like, when I was a kid, it was yelling at everyone's parents to stop smoking. And so I'm like. Like, well, I don't do that. I'm like, so it's got to be better than that.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, when you're 13 and you get in trouble and it's like, well, I'm not doing heroin.

[Anna Knight]

Exactly. Exactly. It could be so much worse. It could be so much worse.

[Caroline Turner]

It really could. It could be so much worse.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. That's a great vice. I love it. Love it, love it, love it. Okay, you ready to hear confession?

[Anna Knight]

Sure. Of course.

[Caroline Turner]

Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. A few years ago, I was hired to renovate a stunning Victorian home in a small New England town. Sounds like the dream. The house was straight out of a gothic novel. Turrets, intricate woodwork, stained glass windows that caught the morning light just right. It had been on the market for years, and the new owners were thrilled to turn it into their forever home. But they warned me up front. The house has a history. Apparently, the locals call it the widow's house. The story was that a young widow had lived there alone after her husband died. At see, some said she died of a broken heart. Others claimed she vanished without a trace. Over the years, rumors of ghostly activity spread. Footsteps in empty rooms, lights flickering, voices whispering through the halls. My clients didn't believe in ghosts, but they couldn't deny the eerie vibe the house had when they first toured it.

[Samantha]

I feel like every town has a house like this. Growing up, there was that town where, like, no, something bad happened there.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's always just like an old person who's kind of a hoarder, and.

[Anna Knight]

The old kids are scaring, like, the home alone guys. What do they ever do to you?

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Okay. The project started like any other. We planned to preserve as much of the original character as possible while modernizing the kitchen, bathrooms, and bedrooms. But from the first day, strange things started happening. Tools would go missing and show up in places no one remembered leaving them. Workers swore they heard footsteps upstairs when they were the only ones in the house. One guy even refused to go back after he said he felt someone breathing on his neck while he was working in the basement. Like, I have a little bit of a shiver. That is okay. Things escalated when we started demo. In the dining room, behind a false wall, we found a small hidden room, maybe 6ft by 6ft. It was empty except for an antique rocking chair and a dusty old photograph of a woman. She had this intense, piercing gaze that seemed to follow you wherever you moved. No, my clients. I have chills up my entire body. No, my clients wanted to keep. Keep the chair as a conversation piece. Quote, it's part of the house's history.

[Anna Knight]

They said it's gonna be a no from me. No.

[Caroline Turner]

But I had a bad feeling about it. Yeah, no, that's, like, the least. The most haunted shit I've ever heard of in my entire life.

[Samantha]

And this is a little bit of a tangent, too, but have you heard. I know you both love vintage and vintage pieces. They talk about that when you bring.

[Caroline Turner]

In a vintage piece, you're bringing in energy. The energy.

[Samantha]

And I always think about that, too. Cause I love shopping secondhand and vintage. And I've heard about it with art, you bring something in and you get a creepy kind of vibe. And it's like, I always think about that in the back of my head. Like, what kind of energy am I bringing into this house?

[Caroline Turner]

This is so weird. But whenever I go to antique stores, hair brushes give me the most sinister energy. And the fact that, like, someone would buy a hairbrush that feels like you are literally bringing that person into your home.

[Anna Knight]

Did you see the, like, Victorian art that's made out of hair? So creepy. I love vintage, and I actually deeply love creepy art. Or the weird, the strange, the unexpected. I love it. But hair art, it's like, no. It's like baby teeth or something. I'm like, just.

[Caroline Turner]

No. I can't even really do when my girlfriends shower at my house and put their hair on the wall of the shower. Get the fuck out, please. No, I can't. Oh, my God. Okay. After the chair was brought into the living room, the atmosphere in the house changed. Yeah, it does.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Lights would flicker even though the wiring had just been updated. The thermostat would swing from freezing cold to stifling hot in minutes. What? One night, while I was walking through the house to check progress, I heard the unmistakable sound of the chair creaking.

[Samantha]

No, no.

[Anna Knight]

Like, I'm sorry.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like I'm an American horror story or something. Like, huh? When I turned the corner, it was rocking back and forth slowly, even though no one was there.

[Samantha]

That would be my last day.

[Caroline Turner]

I wish, like, my chills showed up on camera because. Okay, what do you do in that situation?

[Anna Knight]

What? What? I'm so curious about so many things. What was the client saying? What did she do? What? Like, were they freaked out? Were they, like, stopping such a baby? This is all cool.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, was she alone when she heard the rocking? Like, is it like she was hearing the rocking? I also have lot of questions, like, being like.

[Anna Knight]

I think that's actually where I would. My brain would go initially. Is that like, someone screwing with me? Or, like, because I'm such a skeptic, that I wouldn't be like, yeah, going straight towards.

[Caroline Turner]

I think I Would probably be like, it's the wind right inside this house. Like I would give any other.

[Samantha]

You have to talk yourself out of it.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because I also feel like if you're like at work and you're in the midst of doing something, you're not going to be like, oh, it's a ghost. You're going to be like, that's just.

[Anna Knight]

And I'm not gonna be the one.

[Caroline Turner]

To like came on or something.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

Call uncle first either. Like, I'm gonna just be like, we're fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. We'll just ignore it.

[Samantha]

Yeah. But also, I would never go in there by myself. And I'm not sure if they were right in there by themselves. Catch me freaking dead in that place by myself.

[Caroline Turner]

No, no, no. I think I would have to have a junior designer and like at least.

[Anna Knight]

A man like somewhere like. Or this. With that wonderful team I talked about, I'd be like, hi, so this is your project now. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Hey, girls.

[Anna Knight]

Like, you're getting like, congratulations. You're getting a huge project, like, major promotion. I totally know you can handle this. You have got this biggest budget you've ever managed.

[Samantha]

They're listening from the other room.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, you're so right. That would be. Yeah. My, my strategy. Okay. The final straw came when the family moved in. Okay. So they hadn't been living there, so she must have been there alone. At first they chalked up the strange occurrences to old house quirks.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Samantha]

So it seems like the clients are.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, they're okay enough.

[Anna Knight]

Could it be me, Charming or whatever. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Then their 8 year old daughter started waking up every night at 3am which.

[Anna Knight]

Is like, that would be it for me. I'd be like, now we have to move.

[Caroline Turner]

We're done, we're done. We're done.

[Anna Knight]

Well, my sleep. I don't care about the ghosts.

[Caroline Turner]

You're like kids. I need to sleep. Thank God.

[Samantha]

The ghosts have been bothering me.

[Anna Knight]

You need to go to bed, so you need to stay asleep. We are not getting up at 3 in the morning. If the ghost is waking everybody up, we're out. Like, that's it. You're having boundaries with the ghost. Yeah. No, no, no. I think everyone's safe. We just all need to go to sleep.

[Caroline Turner]

Like we need to get into rem.

[Anna Knight]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

That's the priority.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

Mommy has a big day tomorrow.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

No ghost wake up. Nope.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God. Okay. Their eight year old daughters are waking up every night at 3am crying about the lady by the window. No, she described the woman from the Photograph perfectly, down to the dark dress and solemn expression. When they asked how she knew about the photo, the little girl said, she told me she lives here. No, I have pills all over my body. No. The family lasted three months before they called me, frantic, and said they were putting the house on the market.

[Anna Knight]

Wow.

[Caroline Turner]

They couldn't handle the constant unease, the strange noises or the feeling of being watched.

[Anna Knight]

I wonder if they did. Like, I don't know if there are those. Like a. Like a seance, like a cleanse, like a.

[Caroline Turner]

Something.

[Anna Knight]

I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

Palo Santo in there with a priest. I would try some things.

[Samantha]

Yeah. Would you? Okay. If this happened, would you leave right away? Try some things. I feel like I'm a one and done with this stuff.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. But my question is, I think there's, like. I definitely believe in ghosts and like that there's energy, but I think there's like negative energy and positive energy. And I think you can be stuck and not able to fully pass over, but it's not. You're not attempting to harm anyone or like you're not trying to get them out of the house. Yeah. I think for me, yeah. It would've been the fact that the child keeps waking up and is, like freaking out. I think that would be it. But I would definitely try some things.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Especially if I'd spent all that money on the renovation.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Are you earnings? Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

Right, right. Like, I feel like you've gotta try.

[Caroline Turner]

Try. Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

Three months. You'd feel like such a Luna kook. Right? Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

You really would. You would feel like I'm living in a different. How do you tell your front reality?

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, like that. But you'd also feel. I mean, either way, you gotta do something. Cause otherwise you're putting the house up on the market and everyone and all your friends, all. Everything that you've spent two years or whatever and all this money and in our dream home and blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, oh, yeah, no, I got thinking of Jeev. So it's like, what do you want to say?

[Caroline Turner]

I got Scala, so I had to move.

[Anna Knight]

Right. I'm gonna do something. You're right.

[Caroline Turner]

That's really funny.

[Samantha]

Well, and then. Do you have to disclose?

[Caroline Turner]

You do?

[Samantha]

Well, it's like if someone dies in the house, you have to.

[Caroline Turner]

But there is a thing. If. So, I mean, if someone dies in the house. But there's like a. There's a statue of time.

[Samantha]

Oh.

[Caroline Turner]

So it's like in different states. You can wait. Like, what is it in California? It's Three years. And then you don't have to disclo. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know what it is. In Illinois, in Georgia, like, my parents house, someone was in.

[Anna Knight]

My God.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I mean, what's creepy is that when we were renovating, it's an old farmhouse from the, like, early 1900s. And when we were renovating, half the house fell down in the half that was murdered in. Isn't that crazy? And my mom nor I knew until they were completely done with the renovation. But my dad knew the whole time.

[Anna Knight]

Stop.

[Caroline Turner]

Shut up.

[Anna Knight]

And he.

[Samantha]

And they never heard anything or felt weird energy.

[Anna Knight]

Like, I got this smoking deal on this house.

[Caroline Turner]

It was. The energy is very positive in there. And, like, that whole foundation even crumbled. So we had to, like, completely rebuild that whole part of the house. Wow. So. And like, again, we didn't know that when it fell that was, like, happening. We just thought that it was, like, falling down.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. They left the rocking chair behind. And honestly, I don't blame them. Yeah. That would be the stupidest thing you could possibly do to take it with you.

[Anna Knight]

Right then you're just bringing it with you.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. To this day, I think about that house. It was one of my most beautiful projects. But it's also the one I can't quite explain. Maybe it was all coincidence or maybe there's more to these ghost stories than I wanted to believe.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

It's interesting from a designer because she hears about these things. I mean, I guess she did have an experience, but. But also, it must be kind of hard. Like, I just spend all that time and money, but now you're just.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like a little bit of a mourning for the house. That is crazy. Yeah. One of our clients has a ghost.

[Samantha]

Really?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. She's hopefully gonna be on the podcast so she'll talk about it. But he lives in her barn and he wears, like, a little newsboy cat.

[Samantha]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And he's like 8 years old, and she's seen him. And her dog sitter saw him and called her and was like, hello. What? Like, I'm leaving. This is crazy. His name's like, Tommy or Timmy or something. And such a ghost name.

[Anna Knight]

And they live in Chicago or where.

[Caroline Turner]

Do they live in Long Grove. I think Tracy would say it. We'll figure out what.

[Samantha]

They live in the Chicago suburbs.

[Caroline Turner]

They live in the Chicago suburbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the house is from, like, the 1800s, and it's a farmhouse. Like, there's place for horses and the whole thing. And it was like A horse barn. And yeah, they looked it up and it's like aligns with something that historically happened.

[Samantha]

Wow.

[Caroline Turner]

It's crazy.

[Anna Knight]

My house is 1889, I think I have no friends living in it yet. Other than that.

[Caroline Turner]

You know of.

[Anna Knight]

That I know of. So that's making me feel very grateful for that. It's. We're busy enough with all the animals and the kids and everything else. I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

I'll bring a ghost into this. Please.

[Anna Knight]

Living, former generations crashing.

[Caroline Turner]

That is funny. I mean, whether it's coincidence or not, it's crazy. Yeah, it's wild. We need to give some penance. Do we give some penance to the ghosts? Like, who do we give penance to?

[Anna Knight]

I would say if you like honoring, like to the idea of energy, would it be something like whatever you believe, whether it's lighting a candle for or researching who it was or remembering the person in some way, like honoring that memory if they were trying to make themselves known, Trying to be found.

[Caroline Turner]

Cause you would think you're right, that if they're trying to make themselves known, it would be for a reason. And sometimes that's just to be seen. Air quotes. So I feel like, yeah, honoring them in some way or potentially doing something that like, releases them before they move. Like bringing, you know, somebody in or like. Yeah. Having them be able to communicate in some way so that they could potentially pass over.

[Samantha]

Because to your point, you can tell bad energy versus good energy.

[Caroline Turner]

And it doesn't sound like this is like sinister.

[Samantha]

No, the waking up isn't great, but.

[Caroline Turner]

The wake up isn't great.

[Samantha]

I mean, at least do it at like when the kid's awake.

[Anna Knight]

Don't you.

[Samantha]

Don't ruin the parents night. But.

[Caroline Turner]

But there's something about 3am that's like. That's the time.

[Samantha]

It's like the devil's number. Yeah, it's like three.

[Anna Knight]

Three.

[Samantha]

Three. The Holy Spirit. I think, what, 666, 666, 333 or.

[Caroline Turner]

Something about something about 3:00am Is like supposed to be like the paranormal hour or something.

[Samantha]

I don't nothing when you're up about it. I remember when I couldn't sleep when I was a kid and I would look over and I'd be like, please don't let it be three. Please don't let it be three.

[Caroline Turner]

And I'd be like, is that an urban legend that we were told or something? I don't know.

[Samantha]

We need a paranormal specialist to come.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Because I'm talking out of my ass. I don't know anything. Someone's probably on here, like, no, I'm sorry, this is all a little misinformation.

[Samantha]

Don't believe anything we say ever on this podcast.

[Caroline Turner]

We are not an information podcast. No, no, no, no. Let's get into the second confession. I'm not proud of this, but a few years ago, I got into a full blown feud with another interior designer in the industry, Juicy. Let's call her Rachel. We both worked in the same city, had overlapping client bases, and were known for somewhat similar aesthetics.

[Anna Knight]

6.

[Caroline Turner]

I've had my firm for seven years.

[Anna Knight]

Oh, it's me.

[Caroline Turner]

You wrote in for this episode. Well, Rachel.

[Anna Knight]

Sorry, Rachel.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, sorry, Rachel.

[Samantha]

Name her.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Well, Rachel is a seasoned vet and has had her firm for over 20 years. It was one of those situations where our paths kept crossing and not always in the most pleasant ways. It all started with a client, a big name client. They initially reached out to me for a consultation and I was thrilled. We had a great meeting. I brought my A game, pitched some ideas, and even followed up with a detailed concept board. Then a few weeks later, I found out they'd hired Rachel instead. No explanation, no heads up, just ghosted. I was annoyed, but tried to brush it off. Which I feel like we as designers.

[Anna Knight]

That have it right, like, they don't. I mean, it's nice when someone sends an email and it's like, thanks so much. But I went with someone else. But I mean, like, they're vetting you. They didn't pick you.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it's fine. That's part of this process.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Samantha]

You have to handle rejection a little bit.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

And I always try to believe that a like the cliche advice that if you don't get any job interview, like, it probably wasn't a good fit. The employer knew something you don't know, like, go with the person that you clicked with. If they clicked more with her, then they clicked more with her, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Or it's like a marriage, especially if you're building a house. We're together for years. I don't want. I used to say that to clients. Not so much anymore because we don't have that conversation as much. But early in my career, they would always be like, you know, we're talking to a couple different people. That was also a tactic to negotiate, I now realize. But I would always be like, no worries. If you vibe with somebody else better please go with them because that means we won't be the right fit.

[Samantha]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

It saves both of you.

[Anna Knight]

Totally.

[Samantha]

One of my favorite quotes is what's meant for me, won't miss me. And it's true. And I have to remind myself that.

[Caroline Turner]

For so many things, but it is hard.

[Anna Knight]

But I mean, and I get that, like, if she was really excited about the project, like, in terms of fueling a few, like. Or these things can build where it's like. Like always her or something, like, versus. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I think it's like, if you lose out to different designers occasionally, that's one thing. But if there's one person who's like.

[Anna Knight]

You keep losing out to.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, that would be difficult, right? Yeah, for sure. It's interesting because I actually have had this experience where another designer was hired and it was, like, not told to me that they were talking to anybody else. And it, like, seemed like they were about to execute the contract and they went with another designer. And I was just like, well, that sucks. But, like, what are you gonna do about it? I mean, there's nothing you can. You can do. And I think that, well, we'll keep going and see what happens. I shouldn't get outta myself. Okay. I was annoyed, but tried to brush it off. It happens, right? Yes.

[Anna Knight]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

But then I started hearing whispers. Apparently, Rachel had told the client that my work was derivative and that I didn't have the experience to handle a project of that scale. Oh, that's a different. Different story. That one stung. Not only was it untrue, but it also felt like a low blow. I told myself to let it go, but honestly, I didn't.

[Samantha]

Couldn't be me either.

[Caroline Turner]

She's me. Like, I. I would have a hard time. She's so real for me too, also. Seven years in this industry. You've been in seven. I've been in five. I'm to the point in my career where people are, like, listening to me. Seven years is not one year.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And to say that to a client is. And the fact that the client went.

[Anna Knight]

With the designer, is that nothing?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, that's a red flag to me. Like, they wouldn't have been a good client if they were willing to go with another designer. Who said that about another designer?

[Samantha]

And in what world did this girl come up that Rachel would start talking about her in the picture?

[Caroline Turner]

Probably the client was like, by the way, other designers and sometimes people will ask, who are you talking to? Can I ask who you're talking to? But, like, that's not a tactic that I think would ever work in my experience.

[Anna Knight]

I just. I mean, with anything, I'm such a. A soft sell wins kind of person. But, like, I Should. If I need to, like, bully or berate or badmouth the other person, like, I'm always the opposite. I've. Like, we were talking about earlier, like, our favorite contractors or whatever. I will often say, like, look, you don't need to use me, but you should totally use this contract or whatever. Like, you're earning trust. Like, you're not owed that on day one and everything. And so, like, you owe. I think you owe people your honest opinion and, like, your honest personality because they are trying to get a read of if they could work with you for. To your point, years.

[Caroline Turner]

Years. Like, longer than most of my relationships.

[Anna Knight]

Biggest, biggest personal investment that most people will make. That relationship is huge. So. Yeah, no, that's not. That's not nice.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. There's, like, grapevine stuff that I've also heard, and I do think that also, to me, shows an insecurity in the designer who's been working for 20 years. If you're so great and have been working for 20 years, why do you need to say anything about anyone on.

[Anna Knight]

Her shoulder thing that, like, if you're the 20 year vet, the fact that the other person they're considering is just a newer person, It's. Maybe she wanted to hear you were talking to all the other 20 year veterans in town, and then she felt insecure. I don't know what pond you think you're in right now, but I'm in this other pond.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, you're right. That's probably what it was like. Well, why are you even considering that? Because I've been around for 20 years. What's interesting is, in my experience, specifically with contractors, any contractor who says to me, I've been doing this for 25 years. I know what I'm doing. Worst contractor I've ever worked with in my entire life. Worst contract. Like, they literally can get sued on a dime because they did. Like, it's. You've been doing this for 25 years. That's worse. That is worse that you are still not this put together and you've been doing this for 25 years. It's crazy. Okay. Things escalated a few months later when we both ended up bidding for the same project again, this time for a boutique hotel.

[Anna Knight]

Oh, cool.

[Caroline Turner]

It was one of those dream jobs that could make your portfolio. Definitely. The owner invited us to present our designs on the same day, back to back. She added fuel to the fire.

[Anna Knight]

How is she even finding this out?

[Caroline Turner]

They saw each other.

[Anna Knight]

Yes. As I walked into the meeting, I.

[Caroline Turner]

Noticed Rachel's team leaving, and I swear she Gave me a smug little smile as we passed each other.

[Anna Knight]

Burn. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Which also, the way that my blood would rise to, like, it would start boiling immediately. I don't. Yeah. Fast forward to the presentation. I crushed it. The owner loved my ideas and said I was exactly what they were looking for. I left feeling like I'd finally redeemed myself. But then Rachel. Rachel posted a not so subtle Instagram story later that day about, quote, designers who recycle ideas and how originality is everything in the industry. She didn't name names, but it was obvious who she was talking about. I was furious.

[Samantha]

This Rachel girl needs to shut herself. She needs to get a life a little bit. You've been around for too long to be posting things on Instagram.

[Caroline Turner]

Also, go.

[Samantha]

Go touch grass.

[Caroline Turner]

Maybe this is stupid of me, but, like, the way I would never post anything like that on Instagram for, like, morality. But also just because, like, we're. We have jobs. Like, I'm too busy to deal with this shit. Why would you ever want clients to think you have this much time on your hands?

[Samantha]

A client's reading that.

[Anna Knight]

Well, yes, I 100% agree with all of that. But then there is this thing that, like, I think plenty of people have this opinion of, or interior designers have a reputation for the whole diva thing and that kind of behavior. And. And it definitely exists. It's definitely out there. And I will never understand it. I'm like, this is like, what is your damage, girl? It just doesn't make any sense. The whole. I don't know, maybe there are some markets or some places where there really needs to be that level of competition. But I'm like, the work should stand for itself. Be a good person. Be nice to people. Be nice to your reps. Do the right thing. Be nice to your contractor. Be nice to your dog. Just stop.

[Caroline Turner]

It's also for me, I. Especially early on in my career. Cause I was like, so new. We lost it on a lot of jobs. Cause you do. Like, you're not ready for it. And you take meetings and the client realizes you're not ready for it. And almost every time, the designer or the client made it known to me that they'd made the wrong choice and it was the wrong fit. And I hear things and I'm like, oh, that would have been horrible. Like, I was actually saved from that specific instance because the universe had my back, in a way. And I think that it seems like her damage is less about losing out on the projects and more about the way that this woman is Going about treating her. And that is the piece where it flips to. How I feel about it is people reach out to me on Instagram and are like, I wanna be an interior designer. Will you get coffee, whatever? And it's like, for sure, right? I mean, intimidated time, obviously, you have to limit your time, but there's no reason that we shouldn't, like, mentor other people and bring other people into the industry and work together. I mean, we funnel work down.

[Anna Knight]

There's plenty of work. There's plenty of work.

[Caroline Turner]

There's too much work for most designers.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

We don't need to be. And that's honestly not to, like, plug the podcast we're literally talking on. But that's part of what this is like, to be able to bring people in and we're all doing something different, and we all are finding success in our own way. And, I mean, we've probably gone out for the same projects, but I would have no idea.

[Anna Knight]

I would have no idea.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I have no clue. And I would never be like, oh, man, she got the project. It would just be like, okay, great, we have a full roster. So does she. Moving on, like, it's never. It would be so.

[Anna Knight]

And how do we help each other? Like, get the next great ones or get her. Be in a position to be turning away work or growing or, you know, whatever. But it just. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I do think, like, you know, when we turn away work, I'm always like, but here are three designers that could take this job, and if you're not doing that, what are you doing?

[Samantha]

Pay it forward. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, it's just. Even, like, from a selfish perspective, the karma. Please just. It's not. We don't have to hold on so tightly. Like, the scarcity of it all is really pretty crazy. The final showdown happened at a vendor cocktail hour. It was supposed to be a relaxed evening of networking, but the tension was thick. The moment I arrived, word traveled fast that Rachel was going around asking, why is she even here?

[Anna Knight]

I mean, this isn't a feud. This is just Rachel's slime.

[Samantha]

Rachel is a bitch.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, Rachel's a bitch.

[Samantha]

Name her.

[Caroline Turner]

She's a mean girl.

[Samantha]

Yeah, like, insecure.

[Anna Knight]

Right?

[Caroline Turner]

This feels like high school.

[Anna Knight]

And like, the confessor is like being bullied more than being feuding. Or at least, I mean, whatever. I suppose she's also the one writing it. Maybe she's omitting all the snarky things she. But. But she.

[Caroline Turner]

Every story is right.

[Anna Knight]

Right. I suppose. But certainly by this telling, it's like she's just getting just bullied.

[Samantha]

Bullied.

[Caroline Turner]

Beaten down.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And the fact that the thing is, to me, this would not fly in Chicago.

[Samantha]

It's too small of a circle.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't think that a lot of other designers would engage with another designer saying that.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, for the most part, I've found that, like, if someone's talking shit about another designer, like a rep, or someone else will be like, oh, you know, I've worked with that person, and they're fine.

[Anna Knight]

Right, right, right, right.

[Caroline Turner]

We're. It's just. I mean, again, North Shore might be a little bit of a different thing, like the designers that are based in the North Shore, which, again, it's totally fine. But I do think there's a little bit more competition within that. But all of the designers I' work and, like, offices are in Chicago. It's not. There's none of that.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

At least in my experience.

[Anna Knight]

Certainly, I'm like, reps and everyone else are always in a position, like, have you met so and so? You should meet so and so. You're going to love, like, building the network. I think it's the hardest part about, like, an industry where so many of us are solopreneurs or have our own little small team. And, like, I love my team, but, like, there's four of us. Right. And especially, like, you're in charge and you're in charge. And, like, I loved what you were doing on the Facebook page with, like, posting rates and everything. And by the way, other people who liked the post and didn't share your rates.

[Caroline Turner]

What are you doing? Share your rates.

[Anna Knight]

Share your rates. Like, share your rates.

[Caroline Turner]

We're all helping each other.

[Samantha]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

You commented and you were like, we charge more. And I was like, fuck, yes, we.

[Anna Knight]

Need to do charge more. Like, exactly. Like, how are you supposed to know this stuff? Like, there's.

[Caroline Turner]

No, you don't.

[Samantha]

It's like in corporate, when they don't want you to talk about salary transparency at all because it helps corporate make more money.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Samantha]

It's a very similar thing. And it's not that we want anyone trying to screw over their client.

[Caroline Turner]

No, no.

[Anna Knight]

But charge what you're worth. I mean, like, I will never. Like, core memory from my childhood. My mom used to, like, freelance on the side. She would. She was an editor, and she would do freelance, like, book indexing on the weekends and everything. And she'd have all these file cards everywhere and everything else. And she bid on a project once a year. It was, like, super rushed right before Christmas, like, Put in the bid or whatever. And she bid, like, $1,200 to do this index in 1992 or whatever. And she found out later that, like, the other two bids were, like, 15,000. And she. And she would have. She knew, like, if she had had more time, she would have bid more.

[Caroline Turner]

It wasn't that she was so wrong.

[Anna Knight]

Like, she rushed it and she messed up sort of. But, like, the pain of the subsequent, like, hours upon hours upon hours of work that you're working basically for free. Whereas if, like, there you had had, like, no one, like, who is that helping? I mean, I help. Help whoever was publishing the book, but, like. But that shouldn't be how anyone's operating. Like, if you're worth more, someone should, like, send up a flare and be like, yo, girl, by the way. By the way, you're really good and you're doing great, and I see you and I believe in you, and you can do it. Charge more.

[Caroline Turner]

Sometimes that's all someone needs is to say, like, hey, permission. Charge more.

[Anna Knight]

Yes.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

It's interesting because I have had clients tell me what other designers are charging.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And they'll be like, one specific client was talking to a couple of different designers, and one is a lot older than me and has been in the industry for a long time.

[Anna Knight]

And they're. Rachel.

[Caroline Turner]

She was charging $25 more than me an hour.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah. That's insane. Insane, insane.

[Caroline Turner]

And when the client told me that, she was like, you were only $25 cheaper. And I was like, what?

[Anna Knight]

Right, what?

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I couldn't believe that because, I mean, she has, like, a reputation. She has clients. She full roster and is charging. I was shocked.

[Anna Knight]

And on the flip side, I think there's one example. I'm thinking of where I think at the time that we possibly lost it because our rate was too low. Because, like, that was sending the message of, well, you must not be. Everyone else is here and you're there, so you must not be a success.

[Samantha]

It can go the opposite way, too.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it definitely can.

[Anna Knight]

And, like, you don't want the bar. You don't want the person to be picking you. To our point before it's all about click and vibe and, can I work with you for two years? You can't be a bar. You shouldn't be like, well, I'm saving 20 bucks an hour. Like, that's, like, not the calculus, right?

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. And early in my career, I. It's so funny now looking back, but everyone would be like, we're your first clients. We're giving you a chance and then would take such crazy advantage of me. And I've realized those are bad people. The people who are seeking out someone who has just started, who doesn't know anything and is fully taking advantage of them. That is like. I mean, on the flip side, and you want someone to step in and be like, hey, you're getting taken advantage of. And that is the piece that, like, that's what we're all trying to do. Because literally, what we've said 50 times, there is so much to go around. Like, there's no reason that we have to be, like, lying to each other about what we're charging or not sharing or not letting someone know that they, you know, could be making a lot more.

[Samantha]

And what a sad existence for this person like Rachel that has to go around and feel so protective and territorial and jealous. It's like, you wanna live your life like that. Living in such a scarcity mindset. It sounds exhausting and not.

[Caroline Turner]

There's something else in her life that is not. Like, maybe this is all she has, or there's no other source of joy, or maybe it's like there's something going on and she's really. That's not to excuse the behavior. It's more so just to say it sounds like there's a deficiency somewhere else. Because why else be so insecure? Okay. Apparently, she thought I didn't belong in her little circle of, quote, elite designers.

[Samantha]

Ew.

[Caroline Turner]

Ew. I brushed it off at first. After all, her behavior said more about her than it did about me. Very true. But as the night went on, it became clear she was trying to rally others to her side, making snide comments about my projects and even questioning my ability to handle big clothes clients.

[Anna Knight]

Jealousies are delicate.

[Samantha]

Get well soon.

[Anna Knight]

I'm, like, crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, she's not well. It was infuriating. I wasn't about to let her tarnish my reputation in front of people I'd worked hard to build relationships with. Yeah, I mean, I get that.

[Samantha]

Let her keep yapping. She's embarrassing herself too.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah. I was gonna just say that, like, anyone who actually knew you would like someone like this. People flaw and people know what's what.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

Because she can't be the first person that she's badmouthed. Like, it sounds like someone who, like, every single time you see them is like, can I tell you?

[Samantha]

Exhaust.

[Caroline Turner]

It's exhausting to be around that kind of person too. Definitely. When I finally crossed paths with her near the bar, I calmly but directly said, rachel, if you have something to say about me, you can say it to my face. I feel like we're like Jersey Shore. Say it to my face. She gave me that fake condescending smile and replied, oh, I was just surprised to see you here, that's all. Without missing a beat, I shot back, surprised because I'm successful enough to be invited. You'll have to get used to it.

[Samantha]

Oh, shit. Mic drop.

[Caroline Turner]

Good. I mean, I don't think I would have been able to think of that in the moment. The room went quiet for a beat, and Rachel's smile froze before she muttered something about needing to find someone. I stayed cool, but inside, I was shaking with adrenaline. I made my way around the room, chatting with vendors and designers I respected, making it clear that her antics wouldn't rattle me. I mean, I think that was pretty good way to handle it.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

Looking back, I don't regret standing up for myself. This industry thrives on relationships, and protecting your reputation is crucial. The truth is this industry can be incredibly competitive, and while most designers support each other, there are always a few who play dirty. Rachel and I haven't crossed paths since, but I've learned to trust my instincts and to never let someone else's insecurity make me doubt my worth. I think that's a great takeaway.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, I mean, honestly, I probably would have not said anything, but I do think in this instance, saying something actually probably nipped it in the bud.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Cause it sounds like she wouldn't have been the type to just peter out.

[Samantha]

And she's gotten away with this for 20 plus years. It sounds like. And again, there's. To your point, Anna, there's probably a lot of other things going on about who this person is. We don't really know if she's been doing this her whole life or her career, but she probably has a reputation of this.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

Or she's just extremely insecure. And let her tell her either way.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, let's. Them.

[Samantha]

Yep.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Let them.

[Anna Knight]

Isn't that Mel Robbins? Right? Let them fear it. Let them. Let them.

[Caroline Turner]

I say that to myself 15 times a day. Let them.

[Anna Knight]

Let them.

[Caroline Turner]

It's okay. Let them. With everything. And it is, like, genuinely revolutionized my life. It's kind of wild. Okay, so penance for Rachel. Let's give Rachel.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, well, Rachel for sure, but she's not gonna do it. So I was gonna say that, like, pay it forward. Word thing is to again, like, practice what you preach. Find someone else to reach out to. Yeah. Mentor someone new.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Anna Knight]

Like Put on your Instagram. Hey, if you're a smaller person looking for work, let me know so I can refer out projects that we can't take. Like, be the anti Rachel. Like, be the anti Rachel. Sorry, all Rachel's out there for, like, making you the new Karen.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, sure.

[Anna Knight]

And sorry, Karen's.

[Caroline Turner]

The name's actually perfect because I feel like Raquel from Vanderpump rules, like, really made Rachel into like a bad word. And so it's perfectly aligned here. I think you're exactly right. I think be the opposite of Rachel. Put all of your extra energy into like helping other people and it will come back 50 fold and you will, I think, be a lot happier just like generally in your life.

[Anna Knight]

A hundred percent, 100%.

[Caroline Turner]

You'll be able to sleep at night. You'll have good friends in the, the industry. And whether you're getting something back immediately, that it's kind of moot. I feel like you're also just from a. This is an industry where like, we're working with a stupid amount of money. It's all like luxury. And while I do genuinely believe that people's homes can change their lives and like, living in spaces that are right for them can impact how children develop. All of that I believe is true. But I do think that at the end of the day, like, we're not saving lives. And so the idea that you can mentor or put some energy back into other people would also, I think, just help with like, personal self esteem.

[Samantha]

For Rachel.

[Caroline Turner]

For Rachel.

[Samantha]

We have to think of something good.

[Caroline Turner]

Rachel needs a lobotomy. I was gonna say she needs to like, deep, deep therapy. Like deep. Maybe try some EMDR or something. Cause like, there's no one who's doing that is okay in their life.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I have never met someone who talks shit who is like super happy.

[Anna Knight]

No, I'm like, you have to sit in a room and have someone read out every negative Instagram comment. Anyone ever post it on your, like, ew, Brown or. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's like trying to fuel her neuroses though.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah, it would.

[Anna Knight]

It would make a mess.

[Samantha]

I think we have to send her on a self healing. We're gonna be nice. We're gonna send her on a self healing retreat. Retreat.

[Caroline Turner]

Maybe a silent retreat.

[Samantha]

Yeah, exactly. By chance to go in, be quiet.

[Caroline Turner]

And be quiet in 21 days.

[Samantha]

To do some therapy. She's gonna do a lot of reflecting. She's gonna come back and she's gonna little self help.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I like it. A little bit more down to earth.

[Samantha]

I like it.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God. Okay, okay.

[Anna Knight]

Oh.

[Caroline Turner]

All right, let's get into some listener questions. I referenced this earlier. The interior design industry can be incredibly demanding both creatively and logistically. How do you prioritize your well being and maintain your energy to avoid burnout?

[Anna Knight]

I mean, I'm not the poster child for not being burnt out. I mean, I think the answer. I think there are a couple things, one I'm terrible at, which is it is such a hamster wheel. Think of the delusion. We talk about this in the office all the time. The delusion that, like, if we just finish all the little things, then I can sit and focus on really designing this beautiful room for our best client or something. But let me respond to this ticky tack email. Let me do the one quick thing for this other person and you can like drown death by a thousand cats a million times over with that little tiki tack stuff. And your entire day becomes those little entire day.

[Caroline Turner]

And then you're like, how is it 7pm and I've done nothing.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, I did nothing.

[Caroline Turner]

Nothing done.

[Samantha]

It doesn't even matter.

[Caroline Turner]

Nothing done, right?

[Anna Knight]

And like, none of that pushes the needles. You, none of that, like, is invigorating or like, I want to be back.

[Caroline Turner]

Tomorrow and do that again. No, no.

[Anna Knight]

And so I think like, because sure, say no. Create boundaries, create. I think all of that is totally true. But I think, and I know people do like carve out like two hours for emails or blah, blah, blah. I've never been done any of that. But like, I will sometimes say, like, I don't care what comes in. I have to spend time on the big beautiful project that we're supposed to be designing and all the other people can wait 36 hours for me to respond or something. Like, and prioritizing the work that, that you're excited about, I think it's also, and this I think is really hard for people when they're starting out to like, take everything, say yes to everything, do whatever and then, but like if you say yes to shitty, crappy stuff, like, that's so not the answer. Like, you don't do your best work, you are annoyed to be doing it. You make more mistakes. Those crappy clients have crappy friends who like see a referral network. Like, it's just one.

[Caroline Turner]

We talk about this all the time, right?

[Anna Knight]

Like, so the scary feeling boundary of saying no or, but what if, then I'm dead. What if, then I'm not busy enough and That I realize, like, you have to eat, you have to pay your rent, you have to. Everyone's in a different. It's a privilege on this.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, for sure. I think it's also very true if you have a team. Like for me, we would take projects to cover the team. Those would cost us money.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

By the time, all the time we spent, they would complain like no one. Like, they were always the worst clients.

[Anna Knight]

Always the worst.

[Caroline Turner]

Always the ones that lasted a year when they should have been three months. Like, it just goes on forever. You can never lose them. And then you're like, finally, you know, fall comes around and you have all these major, major projects and you still have this like one little project hanging around that you can't get rid of.

[Samantha]

Cockroach that won't die.

[Caroline Turner]

I really, genuinely think to like focus your time on another part of your business or like do something else instead of taking clients to fill the roster. Like, honestly, anything else is better. But that's really, really, really hard.

[Anna Knight]

It's really hard. Really hard.

[Caroline Turner]

If when you're in the beginning, you really do have to say yes to everything, but then you get to it. Like for me it was like two.

[Anna Knight]

Years in to like make that transition and realize like, oh, I don't need to say yes to everything.

[Caroline Turner]

I can't say yes to everything. So now I have to. But I'm still not perfect about like picking the right clients and which. That's the other thing. The one tangible thing I will say that genuinely changed my life. Work life, balance wise is a work phone.

[Anna Knight]

I'm sure that that is true.

[Caroline Turner]

I hate having to carry around two phones. But the idea that after like 8pm it should be six, but after like 8pm it's the kitchen plugged in and I don't look at it until like I'm at least partially dressed, that would be revolutionary.

[Anna Knight]

I have not done that and I, I can't.

[Caroline Turner]

But yes, I can't recommend it enough for me. The other thing I do is I tell clients, we all have work phones. Text us at 2am if you want to. It's up to me when I'm going to respond. So you can't expect a response at 2am I will get back to you always within 24 hours, unless it's on a weekend. And then I will get to you by the first business day. But it. Because I. We have clients that are better now because it just seems that the more money they pay, the better they are. Which is so crazy because they're busy.

[Samantha]

They have Their own lives.

[Anna Knight]

And yeah, I don't have the texting problem really. Like I used to.

[Caroline Turner]

I used to have it.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah. No.

[Caroline Turner]

So I mean, clients would call yelling about bills at midnight on a Saturday and I would answer like, that is not. And to me, I don't have enough mental well being to siphon it off.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So like on a weekend, if there's a text, even if I'm not gonna respond to it.

[Anna Knight]

No, it's in your brain.

[Samantha]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like it's taking up space.

[Anna Knight]

Right, Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So for my work phone, I don't even know about it until Monday.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And then I'm like, not all of this is fine. There are no fires. Clients know upfront. They like being able to text whenever. And honestly I find that before they'd be like, I'm so sorry to bother you, but blah, blah, blah. Now they're just like, wait. And it. And we get to it when we get to it. I can't recommend it enough. It also has changed their lives.

[Anna Knight]

I was gonna say my team is better about this. Like they don't look at their phone. Not always. But like most of them especially. Cause like it'll be an email from me and like Monday morning they'll be in and say I've gotta read my emails and everything else. Like, I think they are very good at this. I think it probably speaks to how well behaved all my clients are at the moment. That like this isn't a huge.

[Caroline Turner]

Not a huge problem. Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

So then. But early on. My goodness. Yeah. And so I think to your point, if you are struggling with that problem and that you know, you are having that boundary issue and then like put the external. Put whatever object, like external guardrails in place that you need.

[Caroline Turner]

It was almost guardrails for me, like for me to not. Because I just can't force myself to not. I'm like spinning out about it.

[Anna Knight]

I did that the other I all. I'm so good about it now. I almost never. But I was up. I work late a lot of nights. I'll put the kids to bed, whatever, and fire back up. And I was on. And an email from a client came in. And like our best behaved client, like our favorite client. Like, they're wonderful. And so. But he sent me something and I like knew the answer right away. And I even prefaced it with like, I'm breaking my own rule. Don't expect that. Like, sorry, but here. And he was like, I'm totally the same. Sorry about it. Like we had this kind of Chill moment of like, it's all good. Where you know that we're not supposed to do this. We're breaking all the rules at 11 o'clock. But here you go. But yeah, that's a big. I think the two phones. I went back to practicing law. I knew, like, because I'm old enough to have done it when there were Blackberries. And that's when, like, we had a.

[Caroline Turner]

BlackBerry obsessed with my BlackBerry obsessed.

[Anna Knight]

We had a work BlackBerry and our iPhones. And, like, that was a sad day when, like, the BlackBerry kind of died. I mean, I'm sure they exist, whatever. But, like, that was like the industry standard and then it moved to just everyone had the iPhone and then that, like, game over. Like, then they knew.

[Caroline Turner]

Clients know you have it in your hand.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, the thing about, like, a client can see when I'm on Instagram.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

No, like, no clients know I have a work phone and I can be on Instagram on my personal phone and you're not getting a response, babe. Like, that's not gonna happen.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I also think for me, and this is like, maybe not necessarily the greatest advice, but I have the same problem where it's hard for me to actually design during the day when, like, there's calls and a thousand things are needed. My bathtub is like my favorite place and I will literally take a two hour bath and, like, get so much done.

[Anna Knight]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

At night when, like, my phone, you know, and I use my personal phone and my iPad, which is hooked up to my personal phone, but I do all the work. But it's just like, I'm not being inundated by client stuff.

[Anna Knight]

Right. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And my ADHD is so bad.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

That if I'm trying to do both of those things at once, it's not happening.

[Anna Knight]

It's killer.

[Caroline Turner]

It's not happening. There's no way. Okay, last question, which is again, kind of what we've been talking about. What are some red flags that you look for when vetting a client for a product project?

[Anna Knight]

I. This is so surface level. But I, like, I. It started as a joke, but it's kind of true. I was like, no more clients who are moving into their new house in two months. Like, and are like, I have to have everything before we move. I'm like, the rest of us are living our house and then renovated or wait for things. But I feel like. And of course, like, plenty of our clients are in that situation. It's fine. But like, that sense of emergence, like, to your point, we're not saving Lives. And I will make the joke early on in a vetting process. I'm like, there is no, no interior design ambulance that is gonna come. Like, I'm like, if you have to move into your house and you don't have the new sofa, I assume you have a sofa that your butt has been sitting on for the last five years and you can just keep sitting on it like it's gonna be okay. And I would jump through all the hoops to like, well, but we need to. But before school starts. But before this. And it's like, nope, like, sorry, nope, nope, nope.

[Caroline Turner]

Not possible.

[Anna Knight]

I just had that recently where, where someone called asking for an immediate favor. And then the other one is more like a January favor. I'm like, no, no, no. January is the immediate. Like, that's not like, you don't think earlier than January. Than January. Like, it's Christmas in five days. Like, what are you talking about? Like, like no. And so like setting that super duper duper urgency, that can be like submitting your online inquiry form and being like, do you have time this afternoon to talk? I'm like, but chill, chill.

[Caroline Turner]

Your urgency is not my emergency.

[Anna Knight]

Right, Exactly. I think that a huge one.

[Caroline Turner]

It's a huge. And it's hard because there are some people who are just naturally like, everything is urgent. It's all. But you're right. I think that's a great one to look for.

[Anna Knight]

It's like obviously like unrealistic budget. Like the personality. Like, like, just like, as if you should be available to the texting point. Like, that will be the person who will be texting on Saturday saying, I'm at the tile shop and I saw this. Can you like, and it's on sale. Should I buy it? Like, no, stop, stop, stop.

[Caroline Turner]

Also sales.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

We are a luxury business.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm not buying something on sale. That's not how this.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

That's not how any Labor Day comes around. And I'm like, I want to send out a mass email. Don't send me anything that's on sale for Labor Day. Cuz the answer's no. Yeah, like also, it's like they don't get that our discounts don't double up. So it's like it's not even relevant anyway. But for me, this is funny because you went to law school and were an attorney. We won't work with attorneys.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And both my parents are attorneys, so I feel like I can say that. But like the worst clients that we have had are the ones that are Working in Big Lock currently.

[Anna Knight]

That's so funny. They're like my best. But I. Because really.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, I could see them being great.

[Anna Knight]

I would make it attorney specific. I will say that double income, super busy people.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Anna Knight]

She says it like work first can tend to be. Whatever that means. The people with the copious free time.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

And like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

You know, your ideal is someone who is paying, who values you enough to pay attention enough. Who like respects you as much as.

[Caroline Turner]

They'Re reading your emails.

[Anna Knight]

They're reading your emails. You don't want that busy that they literally are never like checking in and you're like just trying to get approval.

[Caroline Turner]

To get anything done. Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

But I like. So I've had really good luck with like attorneys and doctors or otherwise. Of like sometimes I haven't.

[Caroline Turner]

It's interesting because it doesn't happen so much anymore. We actually have one client that's a commercial job and he's an attorney, but he like runs the business. And so he's one of our best clients.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, he's so reasonable. He doesn't expect us to do things that aren't our job. Like we had a legal issue because it's a commercial job. He handled it like, I want to be clear, it's not all attorneys, but for me. And maybe I shouldn't say big lot. One of them that I'm thinking about specifically was not in big lot. And she had way too much time on her hands and like redlined our contracts.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah. The too much time. Well, and talk about a red flag. I do not compromise. I do not change it. I do not like it is what it is. And I have very politely responded with like, I will address your questions.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Anna Knight]

But I will not change.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm gonna change what I'm doing.

[Anna Knight]

And like, you should never. You should never ever do that. Like, unless there is some super special to that project reason why some clause doesn't. Okay, fine. But like short of that, it's like talk about getting off on the wrong foot early in terms of where your boundaries are and what it's like. Nope.

[Samantha]

And what your relationship is going to look like for the rest of this next year or two. Working with someone just to the point.

[Anna Knight]

Like, no one goes into their like dentist's office and is like, let me tell you. No, I think you should charge or whatever. Like, it's like, no, no.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, we had a client that we had to. She was in big law. We had to walk away from the project because she redlined four contractors contracts.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And none of Them would take the job.

[Anna Knight]

Right, Duh. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Because you're crazy.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

We literally had to be like, we can't find a contractor that will say yes.

[Anna Knight]

Right, right.

[Caroline Turner]

Which is. That is a whole other. And I think you're right. There's like some very obvious ones, but looking at how they treat other people and how they treat you is a very, very, very big indicator. Also, something that I like to do is, and this is not a test, but like our first consultation, our first meeting, I'll have a junior designer with me, I'll go to the bathroom and then I'll ask them, what were they like when I was gone, Were they silent? Did or did they engage you in a conversation and treat you like a human? Because the second, the latter is going to be the one that we want to work with.

[Anna Knight]

Well, it's like being on a date with someone and how do they treat the waiter?

[Samantha]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

It's a perfect indicator of how they're going to treat people who they see as below them. And that's how you become the help in those situations is if they're not respecting what you do. Because at the end of the day, we're also business people that are providing a service. You don't have a doctor that you pay, that you ignore his emails and, like, don't do the things you're supposed to do. Right. Hello again. I'm not claiming we're doctors, but, like, it's the same thing. Same thing, same thing, same thing. Our tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. So what is something that made you feel recently?

[Anna Knight]

Cheesy, I suppose. But when you are a parent, you will. You will get this. Everyone listening or whatever. So my twins are now 10. And this is been when they were younger. Like, if they were getting along or quiet for five minutes, this was a total red letter day. And amazing. But the past couple weeks, like, and I was talking to my husband about too, like, they've been like, really getting along and really having fun and, like, genuinely, like, genuinely having fun together and like, even overlapping their friends more and, like, they'll disappear all weekend up playing. And I'm like, the first 10 years in a lot of ways were like the tunnel in Shawshank Redemption, like, getting through it, like, literally. And I was like, is this, Is this. Am I out of the tunnel? Like, am I out of the tunnel? Like, is this it? Cause I can really do this now. Like, this is great.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I'm like.

[Anna Knight]

And it feels like it's like that moment of like, Maybe everything I've been doing is working. Maybe I'm an auto. Maybe I'm a good mom. Maybe I have a clue. Maybe like it's all so reinforcing that I'm like, yes. Like that's so sweet. That is good.

[Caroline Turner]

That is so lovely. That is good. Yeah. Grace, one of the people who works for us is a twin. And I love the idea of like twins especially when they're the same gender and they can grow.

[Anna Knight]

And like I highly recommend having your children one at a time time.

[Samantha]

Like I would highly recommend not have.

[Caroline Turner]

Do not have twins.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, no, I don't. I think that is. I mean maybe. Maybe that'll work out for you. I don't know. I don't. I think it's trial by fire type of situation that I cannot actually recommend to anybody. But when it's working, it's great. It's great, right? Like. Yes. And people would like you. Cuz. Yes. And maybe she had some relationship with her sister, whatever. It's like oh, my best friend, blah blah blah. Then sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Wonderful. And she talks about it all the time. Cuz her mom had three under two.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's like how is that even.

[Samantha]

That's crazy possible.

[Anna Knight]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

I fear one child under two would do me it. Like there's no way.

[Samantha]

But again I think you just.

[Caroline Turner]

You just do it. You have to like keep moving forward.

[Anna Knight]

My former boss in law world had triplets and twins and she always. And I was next level. But. And she always said that everyone thinks that one more than they have will kill them. And everybody's wrong. Like it's like, you know, you just like you rise to the occasion and.

[Caroline Turner]

You figure it out.

[Anna Knight]

You just have to figure it out.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean it's a same with business. It's the same with anything. It's like, well, I guess we're gonna just figure it out.

[Anna Knight]

Yeah, we're our only option.

[Caroline Turner]

No one's gonna tell me what to do.

[Anna Knight]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So no one's coming to save me. So it's gotta be me. I love that. That is so sweet. Okay, well before we wrap up, where can we find you? Where can people find your work and how should they get in contact if.

[Anna Knight]

Oh sure. So ananite interiors on Instagram and our website.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Anna Knight]

And we have our inquiry form there and everything more. We also were in the last issue of Lux we had a feature. I think we've got something in the one coming out. So we're out and about. But thank you. And this has been so lovely.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you so much.

[Anna Knight]

Thank you for coming.

[Caroline Turner]

This was so fun. It's so fun to talk to someone who's like, in the same city, in the same industry at a, you know, similar point in our careers. It's really.

[Samantha]

And you guys have the same perspectives, too, about things like the scarcity, giving.

[Anna Knight]

Back, cursing D. Pepsi.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Anna Knight]

You know, all of the really important stuff, all of the important critical mission, critical values.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, on. I love it. Okay, well, thank you all for listening. I'm going to say it every time. Go to our website if you have a wild design story or a question. CAROLINE turner, co. Until then, peace be with you. Bye.